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2014-04-01T01:15:39Z asimov.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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2014-04-01T11:29:52Z houzi: I need to test if a list is circular and want to see if I can have better performance than O(n). Is there a way to sort the references, so that I can get O(log N) performance?
2014-04-01T11:41:30Z samth: houzi: no
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2014-04-01T14:45:29Z pjdelport: houzi: if it's once-off, it's impossible to do better than O(n): you have to at least look at each cons once
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2014-04-01T14:47:41Z pjdelport: however, if it's part of some bigger computation, you may be able to shift work around so that the amortized cost of repeated checks is < O(n), or even O(1)
2014-04-01T14:48:23Z pjdelport: that would all depend on the context, though
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2014-04-01T14:53:02Z houzi: I was hoping that I could somehow sort the refrences, like with c-pointers being integers and do log N lookups ..
2014-04-01T14:53:14Z houzi: ..is this possbible in scheme?
2014-04-01T14:59:15Z samth: houzi: you can't do that, and it wouldn't help
2014-04-01T14:59:23Z samth: how would you get all the references?
2014-04-01T14:59:34Z samth: and even if you did, you have to look at them all to find a duplicate
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2014-04-01T15:01:08Z houzi: OK
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2014-04-01T16:40:55Z pjdelport: houzi: sorting doesn't change the fundamental problem; even a perfect sorting algorithm on already-sorted data needs at least O(N) operations verify that it's sorted
2014-04-01T16:42:49Z pjdelport: it really is impossible to do better than O(N): anything fewer means by definition that you cannot have looked at all the elements in the list
2014-04-01T16:43:12Z pjdelport: and any of the elements you didn't look at could be a cycle
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2014-04-01T16:54:38Z ijp: well, there are a lot of assumptions being made here
2014-04-01T16:55:48Z ijp: for instance, if you were to do all the checks every time you mutated a custom data type, then you could easily set a flag saying that it does/does not have a cycle that you query in constant time
2014-04-01T16:56:45Z ijp: as pjdelport said, the work needs to be done, but you can shift around where you do it
2014-04-01T16:57:30Z ijp: for an arbitrary scheme list where any old guy can come up and mutate, you can't do better than checking it the hard way
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2014-04-01T17:02:31Z ijp: you can always copy/forbid mutation, and rule out cycles that way
2014-04-01T17:03:07Z ijp: racket style shared hackery excepted
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2014-04-01T17:17:16Z visualshock: hi, I'm trying to append a list to the beginning of another list. When I made it append to the end I just used set-cdr!, but I am not sure how I would add it at the beginning.
2014-04-01T17:18:16Z ijp: instead of thinking of appending A to the front of B, think of appending B to the end of A
2014-04-01T17:20:19Z ijp: alternatively, there is something rather uglier you can do, where you insert A in between the first pair of B, and the rest of B, and then adjust the heads
2014-04-01T17:21:09Z ijp: of course, the best thing to do is to never mutate a list
2014-04-01T17:24:19Z ijp: http://shift-reset.com/blog/2014/2/28/List%20Mutation%20Public%20Service%20Announcement/
2014-04-01T17:24:19Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/oqfzhcc
2014-04-01T17:24:44Z offby1: the best thing to do is to quit programming, and go sit on a mountaintop and contemplate nature
2014-04-01T17:25:17Z ijp: what is the sound of one pair consing?
2014-04-01T17:25:43Z visualshock: ijp, that makes sense. I'll try some more
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2014-04-01T17:26:54Z DerGuteMoritz: of course, the best thing to do is to never mutate a list
2014-04-01T17:26:57Z DerGuteMoritz: oops
2014-04-01T17:26:59Z DerGuteMoritz: :-D
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2014-04-01T19:06:46Z iron_houzi: Is there a way to graphically draw out cons-cells as they're being generated in order to debug my code?
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2014-04-01T19:20:53Z turbofail: (write my-cons-cells) (newline)
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2014-04-01T19:32:17Z pjb:  iron_houzi: there are libraries to draw ascii-art of sexps.
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2014-04-01T19:34:08Z iron_houzi: I'm mutating my lists to make them into circular buffers and the notation for this is some weird stuff. E.g. #0={{4} . #1={{3 . #0#}{{1} . #0#} . #1#}}
2014-04-01T19:34:14Z iron_houzi: wtf?? ^^
2014-04-01T19:35:04Z ijp: you need to express the sharing somehow
2014-04-01T19:35:08Z m4burns: iron_houzi: #1=bla defines #1 to be thing bla. #1# refers to the earlier definition
2014-04-01T19:35:12Z pjb: Perhaps you want to write your own function to print your circular buffers?
2014-04-01T19:35:18Z ijp: assuming you want printing to terminate
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2014-04-02T08:48:52Z visualshock: Can someone explain to me what it means when something a destructive?
2014-04-02T08:49:00Z z0d: side-effect
2014-04-02T08:49:08Z z0d: like: c = c + 4
2014-04-02T08:49:38Z z0d: you're modifying a "memory cell"
2014-04-02T08:50:12Z z0d: you're destroying the old value of a variable
2014-04-02T08:50:58Z visualshock: z0d, okey thanks
2014-04-02T08:51:20Z z0d: I'm sure someone else here can phrase is much better
2014-04-02T08:51:30Z z0d: it*
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2014-04-02T08:52:39Z z0d: visualshock: if you do (list 1 2 3), it's not destructive, you'll get a fresh copy
2014-04-02T08:53:24Z z0d: but some procedures are destructive, that is, the modify the variable you pass it
2014-04-02T08:55:29Z visualshock: Is cons destructive?
2014-04-02T08:55:45Z ijp: no
2014-04-02T08:56:07Z z0d: SET! is
2014-04-02T08:56:33Z z0d: Scheme has few destructive procedures
2014-04-02T08:56:36Z visualshock: set-cdr/car! also I guess. Is everything with ! destructive?
2014-04-02T08:56:41Z z0d: yeah
2014-04-02T08:56:42Z ijp: no
2014-04-02T08:57:05Z ijp: it's not required to be
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2014-04-02T09:00:14Z ijp: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-1/srfi-1.html#LinearUpdateProcedures
2014-04-02T09:01:20Z visualshock: How can I destructive add something to a empty list '()?
2014-04-02T09:01:26Z ijp: you can't
2014-04-02T09:02:01Z ijp: lisp lists are not like, say python lists. They are not one object.
2014-04-02T09:03:08Z ijp: did you not see the link I posted yesterday?
2014-04-02T09:03:45Z visualshock: ijp, I just scimmed it
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2014-04-02T09:15:35Z visualshock: So my homework is to make a destructive lifo stack that can add to empty lists, which is not possible.
2014-04-02T09:16:14Z z0d: you can create a variable and set it to an empty list
2014-04-02T09:16:45Z ijp: no, that is very easy, but you can't just use a bare list
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2014-04-02T09:17:40Z visualshock: Why can't I just use a list?
2014-04-02T09:17:47Z ijp: because you can't turn a nil into a pair
2014-04-02T09:17:56Z ijp: so you need an additional indirection
2014-04-02T09:20:38Z ijp: z0d: yeah, mutating a variable is the usual way if you don't need an object
2014-04-02T09:21:46Z ijp: but then someone inevitably asks why (define (push! x l) (set! l (cons x l))) (define a (list 1 2 3)) (push! 0 a) doesn't actually push 0 onto a
2014-04-02T09:23:51Z visualshock: ijp, what do you mean with a additional indirection?
2014-04-02T09:24:09Z z0d: jaimef: you're not making it easy for visualshock
2014-04-02T09:24:10Z z0d: <-:
2014-04-02T09:24:27Z ijp: visualshock: in order to mutate, you need something that can be mutated
2014-04-02T09:24:43Z visualshock: true
2014-04-02T09:24:48Z ijp: variables can be mutated
2014-04-02T09:24:52Z ijp: pairs can be mutated
2014-04-02T09:25:02Z ijp: but the empty list cannot
2014-04-02T09:25:33Z ijp: (this list is not exhaustive)
2014-04-02T09:26:07Z ijp: visualshock: so, if you want to have a mutable stack, you have to build it from mutable parts
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2014-04-02T09:26:54Z ijp: so, e.g. you can push and pop by setting a variable, or by mutating the car/cdr of an existing pair
2014-04-02T09:29:46Z ijp: if the stack you are writing needs to be able to be passed around as an object, you cannot use variables, since variables cannot be passed around
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2014-04-02T10:01:38Z iron_houzi: Hi. I'm trying to implement a destructive circular doubly linked list in scheme. Is this a manageable task to do in Scheme?
2014-04-02T10:01:58Z iron_houzi: s/destructive/mutable
2014-04-02T10:02:51Z iron_houzi: I've made an attempt, but I found it hard to debug the structure as it reads like this: #0={{4} . #1={{3 . #0#}{{1} . #0#} . #1#}}
2014-04-02T10:04:18Z iron_houzi: I thought I'd do a circular list that points to a pair which contains a reference to the data and a reference to the previous pair .. is this a sound strategy?
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2014-04-02T10:06:04Z iron_houzi: Sorry. Each element in the circular list has a reference to such a pair described above, except the last element. ( the last element just contains a reference to the first element in the list )
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2014-04-02T18:12:45Z iron_houzi: Ahhh .. finally managed to get the mutable, doubly linked list working .. man, scheme gets ugly when straying too far away from the pure functional aspects of it .. IMHO
2014-04-02T18:19:50Z pjb: iron_houzi: not scheme, racket.
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2014-04-02T18:27:44Z davexunit: iron_houzi: well mutable lists are just ugly anyway
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2014-04-02T21:23:18Z cky: jcowan, foof, and any other R7RS gurus here: Do continuations have location tags? Can they be meaningfully compared using eqv? What about parameters? And promises, for that matter? Curious. :-)
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2014-04-03T03:42:49Z xenophanes: Hi, for sicp I should use MIT scheme?
2014-04-03T03:43:22Z offby1: xenophanes: I don't know.  I've heard there's a special sicp "plugin" for racket.
2014-04-03T03:43:49Z xenophanes: oh cool, i'm using DrRacket at the moment, so I should probably look for that first
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2014-04-03T08:33:33Z ackpacket: Hey guys i'm writing a function to count pairs in a list, but where I run into a problem is if one of the pairs in that list references another pair in that list as it's cdr.  It counts some pairs more than once.  Any suggestions?  I've considered making a list of already visited places... but that sounds like it would get seriously hairy in O
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2014-04-03T12:41:52Z InfusoElAmbulant: is there a gambit-c users specific channel?
2014-04-03T12:44:56Z mario-goulart: InfusoElAmbulant: #gambit
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2014-04-03T12:46:37Z InfusoElAmbulant: I look dumb
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2014-04-03T13:38:45Z Riastradh: I never understood why to split off the various Scheme implementation channels...leaves this place awfully quiet and dull.
2014-04-03T13:41:27Z z0d: indeed
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2014-04-03T13:49:27Z mario-goulart: I suppose it is because scheme is just a small part of most practical implementations... of scheme.
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2014-04-03T13:49:55Z Riastradh: That's why to split it up?
2014-04-03T13:50:14Z mario-goulart: Yeah, I think.
2014-04-03T13:52:27Z mario-goulart: As I see it, #scheme is for the scheme programming language, not for things like "how can I install the spiffy egg on chicken?".
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2014-04-03T14:01:47Z samth: Riastradh: [insert crack about Scheme in general]
2014-04-03T14:02:06Z samth: Riastradh: in #racket, when someone asks a question, i know what they're looking for
2014-04-03T14:02:23Z samth: when someone posts a link to their code, it works in racket
2014-04-03T14:03:02Z samth: there's a lot of shared context that the "Scheme community", such as it is, doesn't have
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2014-04-03T14:18:58Z wingo: samth++
2014-04-03T14:19:59Z samth: it's the same reason that going to a lisp conference (or having a scheme paper there) is fun, but i don't hang out in #lisp
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2014-04-03T19:22:07Z Tuplanolla: I was wondering what is the Scheme way of using immutable nested records.
2014-04-03T19:22:25Z Tuplanolla: Haskell has lenses for easily updating values.
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2014-04-03T19:30:12Z civodul: Tuplanolla: Guile has something similar in spirit to lenses, for records: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/SRFI_002d9-Records.html#Functional-_0060_0060Setters_0027_0027
2014-04-03T19:30:12Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/jw4wxrm
2014-04-03T19:30:40Z Tuplanolla: I'm using Chicken or CHICKEN.
2014-04-03T19:31:27Z civodul: heh, ok
2014-04-03T19:31:41Z civodul: i don't think there's a standardized API for that
2014-04-03T19:32:00Z Tuplanolla: I just don't see how to manage state properly.
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2014-04-03T20:05:22Z Tuplanolla: Should I stop worrying and recklessly copy the universe?
2014-04-03T20:05:44Z Tuplanolla: If you give me permission, then it won't feel so bad.
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2014-04-03T20:31:38Z pjb: It's useless.  If you use a monad to encapsulate state modification, it becomes an implementation detail, and you've left again with a program that modifies state.  Just use set!  and imagine it implements the state monad.
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2014-04-05T02:47:06Z sagepanda: evening for those EST, would someone mind helping me understand how a specific datatype I have is a closure?
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2014-04-05T02:47:52Z sagepanda: http://pastebin.com/Yh2P0L4C is what evaluates the closure
2014-04-05T02:48:30Z sagepanda: http://pastebin.com/FZJA67mQ <-- closure definition
2014-04-05T02:50:27Z sagepanda: http://pastebin.com/LGDiYQKT <-- Abstract Data Types
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2014-04-05T02:53:44Z sagepanda: lol nm figured it out
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2014-04-05T03:02:08Z offby1: Next!
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2014-04-05T15:59:56Z francogrex: big surprise I thought GIMP was only in C and GTK but no it's a lot a lot of scheme!
2014-04-05T16:00:03Z francogrex: http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Basic_Scheme2/
2014-04-05T16:02:46Z offby1: a sort of weird scheme
2014-04-05T16:03:24Z francogrex: weird ok but still freaking scheme. scheme and lisp define the world man, the world
2014-04-05T16:05:06Z offby1: ah, I remember when I was young and idealistic
2014-04-05T16:06:12Z ijp: the romans had just conquered gaul
2014-04-05T16:07:52Z francogrex: maybe I exaggerated a little
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2014-04-05T16:15:25Z ijp: rudybot: (define the-world (make-world "Earth" #:radius 6378.1 #:satellites '("Moon, The") #:supports-life? #t))
2014-04-05T16:15:25Z rudybot: ijp: but it's confirmed by clocks traveling faster than others, eg. in the satellites of the GPS network.
2014-04-05T16:15:54Z ijp grumbles
2014-04-05T16:16:56Z offby1: in theory, he figures you meant "eval" if he can "read" what you wrote, and get exactly one datum back.  In practice, as you see, it sometimes doesn't work.
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2014-04-06T21:29:53Z 
2014-04-06T21:29:53Z names: ccl-logbot taylanub pnkfelix jaimef oleo cmatei fikusz kobain omefire1 gnomon copumpkin mornfall zacts lolcow hive-min1 aftersha_ antoszka mbishop_ peted_ haroldwu_ dpk rudybot_ pjb` Natch acieroid DGASAU` solidus__ _8680_ sak leb chameco aretecode nisstyre civodul ecraven cmpitg annodomini tupi Rodya_ amoe gravicappa amgarchIn9 c74d karswell bjz leo2007 jeapostrophe davexunit ASau acarrico ijp w0rm ggherdov_ mmc1 zephyrfalcon wingo brendyn Riastradh
2014-04-06T21:29:53Z names: zajn_ joneshf-laptop LostDatagram jyc heath araujo emma waxysubs Sgeo peterhil` vagn githogori _5kg Nshag tali713 Razz aoh joast Khisanth guampa Kruppe aap_ aeth cross ruzu gabot fadein teiresias mmc defanor wilfredh `^_^v BossKonaSegwaY SHODAN stamourv LeoNerd cdidd cjh` tessier_ joneshf-work duncanm zbigniew yosafbridge nicdev asumu arbscht pyro- ohama tenq|out finnrobi Exploter superjudge twem2 Averell certainty Saeren cibs ZombieChicken ffs ada2358_
2014-04-06T21:29:53Z names: akp m4burns fizzie mario-goulart pcoutin turbofail Kabaka_ evhan jkraemer xian ozzloy sethalves SirDayBat ineiros ft janelleb aking ctindall kilimanjaro DerGuteMoritz shardz choas dan64 ivan\ juanfra gf3 pjdelport balkamos mrowe_away Giomancer kwmiebach____ stephe__ gluegadget samth greghendershott misv jrslepak micro slowpoke epsylon dca felipe clog poucet edw eMBee cratuki copec cky tsuyoshi ec z0d offby1 sung_ jj2baile twaapo Blkt pchrist C-Keen kbtr_
2014-04-06T21:29:53Z hobana.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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2014-04-07T00:46:35Z KrazyCod3r: Hey scheme people
2014-04-07T00:49:43Z zacts: lo
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2014-04-07T00:53:28Z KrazyCod3r: I just started scheme last night lol, through mit 6.001 course
2014-04-07T00:53:31Z KrazyCod3r: SCIP
2014-04-07T00:53:40Z zacts: cool
2014-04-07T00:53:54Z KrazyCod3r: Yeah it's cool
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2014-04-07T01:05:17Z zacts: KrazyCod3r: I'm currently working through a book called 'Scheme and the Art of Programming', which is like a minime SICP.
2014-04-07T01:05:38Z zacts: I hope to be able to begin to conquer SICP starting next spring semester.
2014-04-07T01:06:04Z zacts: I'm going to go ahead and watch the lectures though.
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2014-04-07T01:06:24Z KrazyCod3r: is SICP is that hard ? I am on the second lecture so far and it all seem okay
2014-04-07T01:06:49Z zacts: KrazyCod3r: it's kind of a zen-like philosophical thing.
2014-04-07T01:07:04Z zacts: It takes a lot to digest the essence of the book.
2014-04-07T01:07:21Z zacts: and the exercises. you really should try most of the exercises from the book also.
2014-04-07T01:08:07Z KrazyCod3r: I will
2014-04-07T01:08:31Z KrazyCod3r: I have a question though
2014-04-07T01:08:39Z zacts: sure
2014-04-07T01:08:58Z KrazyCod3r: It says some where in the description that this course/book is designed to be introduction for programming
2014-04-07T01:09:12Z zacts: KrazyCod3r: an introduction to MIT students..
2014-04-07T01:09:30Z KrazyCod3r: Lol
2014-04-07T01:09:46Z KrazyCod3r: They are still humans
2014-04-07T01:10:15Z zacts: but yes, it's great imo! you may want to check out Scheme and the Art of Programming from a library as a precursor to reading SICP though..
2014-04-07T01:10:19Z ijp: puny humans with puny human brains
2014-04-07T01:11:08Z KrazyCod3r: I might zacts it's just that sadly libraries here in egypt doesn't have English books
2014-04-07T01:11:25Z KrazyCod3r: Unless its some lame novels
2014-04-07T01:11:26Z zacts: I see.. hm..
2014-04-07T01:11:47Z KrazyCod3r: I might order a book through amazon though
2014-04-07T01:11:47Z zacts: and this book isn't yet in digital form..
2014-04-07T01:12:05Z KrazyCod3r: is it on amazon  ?
2014-04-07T01:12:09Z zacts: well, try SICP and see how you like it, if you have problems / questions return here.
2014-04-07T01:12:15Z zacts: KrazyCod3r: It's on amazon
2014-04-07T01:12:19Z ijp: KrazyCod3r: what is wrong with novels?
2014-04-07T01:12:51Z KrazyCod3r: ijp: I meant the novels in egypt here are outdated
2014-04-07T01:14:53Z zacts: I have a feeling that I'm the only schemer who uses vim
2014-04-07T01:17:13Z KrazyCod3r: Hmm I use some interpeter, I write directly in it
2014-04-07T01:18:28Z KrazyCod3r: I use vim for C though
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2014-04-07T01:21:17Z pcoutin: zacts: nah, I use vim too, but i'm a newb.
2014-04-07T01:21:34Z zacts: pcoutin: I use tslime.vim + tmux + vim + scheme repl
2014-04-07T01:21:53Z zacts: that way I edit scheme with vim, and then send scheme expressions over to the repl from vim
2014-04-07T01:21:54Z pcoutin: I just use vim and chicken scheme... csi when necessary
2014-04-07T01:22:02Z pcoutin: nice
2014-04-07T01:22:14Z zacts: pcoutin: I also have a fix for scheme indent in vim
2014-04-07T01:23:12Z zacts: to where you can press <tab> like in emacs to indent the current line to the right level
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2014-04-07T02:03:09Z m4burns: zacts: i also use vim :)
2014-04-07T02:03:12Z m4burns: hey there
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2014-04-07T02:26:41Z zacts: cool
2014-04-07T02:26:45Z zacts: I'm not alone. =)
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2014-04-07T03:02:42Z KrazyCod3r: I have a question
2014-04-07T03:04:04Z KrazyCod3r: I have this function (define (improve guess x)     (average guess (/ x guess)))
2014-04-07T03:04:13Z KrazyCod3r: Which works perfectly, but it doesn't make sense to me for a reason
2014-04-07T03:05:27Z KrazyCod3r: Aren't functions defined like (define (name parameters) (body))
2014-04-07T03:06:04Z KrazyCod3r: and to call the average function we do (average x y)
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2014-04-07T03:06:32Z offby1: exactly
2014-04-07T03:06:41Z offby1: my ESP tells me you're reading ... SICP
2014-04-07T03:07:04Z offby1: rudybot: define (average (x y) (/ (+ x y) 2))
2014-04-07T03:07:05Z rudybot: *offby1: the wikipedia page says average case is O(n·n!)
2014-04-07T03:07:08Z offby1: heh
2014-04-07T03:07:17Z offby1: rudybot:  (define (average (x y) (/ (+ x y) 2)))
2014-04-07T03:07:18Z rudybot: *offby1: error: #<undefined>:1:23: define: not an identifier, identifier with default, or keyword for procedure argument <NEWLINE>   at: (/ (+ x y) 2) <NEWLINE>   in: (define (average (x y) (/ (+ x y) 2)))
2014-04-07T03:07:29Z offby1: rudybot:  (define (average (x y)) (/ (+ x y) 2))
2014-04-07T03:07:29Z rudybot: *offby1: Done.
2014-04-07T03:07:32Z offby1 rolls eyes
2014-04-07T03:07:35Z KrazyCod3r: Now shouldn't the fact that calling the function average taking () makes me write (()) as ones for calling the average and another for the body of the function of improve
2014-04-07T03:07:40Z cjh`: KrazyCod3r: (define (name params..) body....), so a function that returns 5 and takes no params is (define (five) 5)
2014-04-07T03:07:50Z offby1: rudybot:  (define (improve guess x) (average guess (/ x guess)))
2014-04-07T03:07:51Z rudybot: *offby1: Done.
2014-04-07T03:08:00Z cjh`: KrazyCod3r: and a function that takes 1 param and return 5 + <param> would be (define (addfive x) (+ x 5))
2014-04-07T03:08:06Z offby1: rudybot: (improve 12 1)
2014-04-07T03:08:07Z rudybot: *offby1: error: average: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   given: 2 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    12 <NEWLINE>    1/12
2014-04-07T03:08:17Z offby1 sobs
2014-04-07T03:08:22Z KrazyCod3r: aha I get it now
2014-04-07T03:08:26Z cjh`: KrazyCod3r: a function that prints the arg first and then adds five: (define (printandaddfive x) (display x) (+ x 5))
2014-04-07T03:08:28Z KrazyCod3r: thanks cjh`
2014-04-07T03:08:31Z cjh`: KrazyCod3r: so you were a pair of () over :)
2014-04-07T03:09:10Z KrazyCod3r: cjh`: it took me long time to find out I am having extra pair but then it didn't make much sense to me till I asked
2014-04-07T03:09:21Z KrazyCod3r: offby1: Yes am reading SICP
2014-04-07T03:10:22Z cjh`: KrazyCod3r: within the body every () represents a function call, so ((+ 5 5)) wouldn't work as it would then eval to (10) and 10 is (probably) not a function.
2014-04-07T03:10:44Z KrazyCod3r: exactly, it tells me stuff like -45 isn't a function
2014-04-07T03:11:13Z offby1: rudybot:  (define (average x y) (/ (+ x y) 2))
2014-04-07T03:11:15Z rudybot: *offby1: Done.
2014-04-07T03:11:20Z offby1: rudybot:  (improve 12 1)
2014-04-07T03:11:20Z rudybot: *offby1: ; Value: 145/24
2014-04-07T03:11:24Z offby1: *shrug*
2014-04-07T03:11:37Z KrazyCod3r: oh rudybot is an interpreter ? lol
2014-04-07T03:11:41Z offby1: ayup
2014-04-07T03:11:56Z offby1: rudybot: will you interpret for us?
2014-04-07T03:11:57Z rudybot: *offby1: if I have a buffer with the contents "3031", how can I make emacs interpret two and two numbers as ascii, and display it as "01"?
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2014-04-07T03:12:05Z offby1: KrazyCod3r: also a smartass.
2014-04-07T03:12:35Z KrazyCod3r: offby1: It sounds epic lol, it never passed my mind before
2014-04-07T03:13:38Z offby1: KrazyCod3r: on IRC, the convention is to give bots names that end with "bot".
2014-04-07T03:13:52Z offby1: rudybot: are you actually sentient?
2014-04-07T03:13:53Z rudybot: *offby1: are you sentient?
2014-04-07T03:13:59Z offby1: rudybot: I asked you first
2014-04-07T03:14:00Z rudybot: *offby1: using a database frees you for wondering how to preserve your data when filesystem is full or you're asked to stop for shutdown
2014-04-07T03:14:06Z offby1: etc etc
2014-04-07T03:14:17Z KrazyCod3r: Lol
2014-04-07T03:21:40Z KrazyCod3r:  
2014-04-07T03:21:56Z KrazyCod3r: I wonder how hard is it to make an interpeter
2014-04-07T03:22:11Z cjh`: :D
2014-04-07T03:22:20Z offby1: depends -- do you want it to be actually useful?
2014-04-07T03:22:36Z offby1: KrazyCod3r: if you're studying SICP, you'll probably find out soon enough anyway.
2014-04-07T03:23:49Z KrazyCod3r: offby1: sounds like it's hardcore
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2014-04-09T00:52:14Z sveit: is there a scheme you can recommend for numerical work?
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2014-04-09T00:52:35Z sveit: I'd like to get into scheme and perhaps replace SBCL as my go-to, but I need a fast, well-supported compiler
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2014-04-09T01:22:20Z sveit: perhaps that was too general. what do people think of gambit vs chicken?
2014-04-09T01:25:11Z stamourv`: sveit: Re numerical work: Check out racket's math library, it's pretty awesome.
2014-04-09T01:25:37Z stamourv`: http://docs.racket-lang.org/math/index.html?q=math
2014-04-09T01:26:03Z sveit: stamourv`: I actually looked into racket and ran some tests against SBCL, and since I would like to write most of my code /in/ scheme and would like it to perform well, racket is a little too slow for the projects I have in mind
2014-04-09T01:27:11Z stamourv`: If you want speed, Typed Racket can help you there.
2014-04-09T01:27:23Z stamourv`: You add some type annotations, and you can get pretty good performance.
2014-04-09T01:27:50Z stamourv`: In a recent test I did (based on a SO question), it beat SBCL by (IIRC) ~20%.
2014-04-09T01:29:04Z sveit: really? that's interesting. I was excited by chicken/gambit because they compile directly to C, but if typed racket beats SBCL it could be a candidate again. My impression was that typed racket was a sub-citizen. Can I integrate standard racket code with it?
2014-04-09T01:29:25Z zacts: I wonder if guile is an option for this?
2014-04-09T01:29:46Z zacts: can't you combine guile with C?
2014-04-09T01:29:54Z sveit: so it seems that gambit/chicken aren't that popular?
2014-04-09T01:30:16Z zacts: you could make the speed intensive operations in C, and the rest with guile?
2014-04-09T01:30:57Z stamourv`: Re integrate with untyped Racket: yes, TR code can interoperate with untyped code. There's contracts at the boundary (to enforce safety), so you want to avoid going from one to the other in performance-sensitive code.
2014-04-09T01:31:12Z sveit: zacts: that's something that I would ideally like to avoid. I know that it is the "real" solution, but I would like to stay in scheme for as much of the project as possible (perhaps only writing FFI to BLAS/LAPACK, which I have no problem spending some time on)
2014-04-09T01:31:28Z zacts: I see
2014-04-09T01:31:40Z stamourv`: As an alternative, if you prefer to stay untyped, is to use Racket's unsafe type-specific primitives. That's what Typed Racket does under the hood anyway.
2014-04-09T01:32:07Z zacts: sveit: what kind of project specifically are you working on?
2014-04-09T01:32:16Z sveit: stamourv`: I might be starting to sound difficult, but I would like generic maths as much as possible :)
2014-04-09T01:32:34Z stamourv`: Well, generic math and performance don't really mix.
2014-04-09T01:33:08Z stamourv`: If you want to avoid the syntactic overhead of the unsafe ops' names, you can always use `rename-in' when importing them.
2014-04-09T01:33:32Z sveit: stamourv`: I know, but i'd still like the tradeoff to be minimal. You are completely correct though. It appears that Gambit/Chicken support some level of generic maths.
2014-04-09T01:33:34Z stamourv`: But if you really want generic code, that prevents most interesting optimizations (unboxing, etc.).
2014-04-09T01:33:44Z stamourv`: And that's trye for SBCL too.
2014-04-09T01:35:31Z stamourv`: Re gambit / chicken math: yep, they should both have generic math (though chicken, IIRC, doesn't have bignums by default, you need to enable them). But to generate fast code, they also need type-specialized operations.
2014-04-09T01:35:38Z sveit: zacts: I'm a physicist, and sometimes have to run simulations or solve relatively complex computational problems, but in my spare time like to play with languages and programming, so am trying to shift my "go-to" toolbox from SBCL to some scheme, mostly for fun. Unfortunately, it has to be able to get results for me to justify spending lots of time building up this toolbox though
2014-04-09T01:36:39Z stamourv`: sveit: Anyway, going to bed now, but I'll be back tomorrow if you have any questions.
2014-04-09T01:36:40Z sveit: that's why I'm spending so much time trying to pick the right implementation; once I pick one, I will immediately be making non-trivial time investments in writing code in it
2014-04-09T01:37:10Z sveit: stamourv`: thanks for your help. if you have a second before you go to bed, are you just recommending racket because of experience, or do you have something against gambit/chicken?
2014-04-09T01:38:13Z stamourv`: sveit: I recommend Racket because that's what I use (and work on ;) ), and because of the amazing math library (neilt and soegaard did an amazing job, IMO).
2014-04-09T01:38:28Z zacts: sveit: you may want to ask #racket
2014-04-09T01:38:31Z zacts: and #guile
2014-04-09T01:38:32Z stamourv`: Nothing against gambit, used it for a few years. Not much experience with chicken.
2014-04-09T01:39:15Z stamourv`: And I've done a fair bit of numeric programming with Racket, so yes, a bit of experience. :)
2014-04-09T01:39:43Z sveit: stamourv`: I see. I'll probably bother you with some more questions tomorrow :)
2014-04-09T01:39:44Z zacts: stamourv`: cool
2014-04-09T01:40:18Z stamourv`: sveit: No problem! Just post them here (with my nick, would make it easier), and I'll answer tomorrow morning.
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2014-04-09T09:10:38Z breunor: anyone here use termite?
2014-04-09T09:10:42Z breunor: seems interesting
2014-04-09T09:10:50Z breunor: distributed and multi cpu enabled
2014-04-09T09:10:50Z breunor: wow
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2014-04-09T09:28:27Z taylanub: .. a multi-processor terminal emulator ?  Innovative!
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2014-04-09T20:28:54Z robb1: I'm working though SICP on my own, I'm wondering if I should continue with MIT scheme or start with Racket?
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2014-04-09T20:31:44Z zacts: robb1: Racket does have an SICP mode iirc.
2014-04-09T20:32:04Z `^_^v: what difference does it make
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2014-04-09T20:37:54Z robb1: zacts: I didn't know, thanks
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2014-04-09T22:10:37Z zacts: robb2: but I've heard much success with guile + SICP
2014-04-09T22:36:40Z _will_: zacts: what was the question?
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2014-04-09T23:03:34Z chrisirc: robb2, http://hackerretreat.com/why-how-start-sicp/ pretty strongly recommends MIT-Scheme. Also, that is Riastradh's preferred Scheme implementation.
2014-04-09T23:03:57Z chrisirc: afaik
2014-04-09T23:05:34Z bridgebird: Dr Racket with the sicp plugin is nice
2014-04-09T23:06:27Z chrisirc: Every time I see someone using the Racket editor, I shudder for its slowness.
2014-04-09T23:06:53Z bridgebird: oh yeah, it does feel sluggish
2014-04-09T23:07:25Z chrisirc: Also, I haven't anyone seen using it in an as nice way as paredit on Emacs.
2014-04-09T23:08:24Z chrisirc: Is there a sort of records library that generates/accesses list representation instead of vector like structures?
2014-04-09T23:12:31Z offby1: doubt it.
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2014-04-10T04:13:11Z son-o-ydkus: I am liking chicken
2014-04-10T04:15:37Z leo2007: why?
2014-04-10T04:16:45Z son-o-ydkus: ez install
2014-04-10T04:16:52Z son-o-ydkus: ez add things with eggs
2014-04-10T04:16:58Z son-o-ydkus: damn openbsd only has 2.6 tho
2014-04-10T04:17:00Z son-o-ydkus: :(
2014-04-10T04:17:13Z son-o-ydkus: I wonder if chicken compiles on openbsd amd64
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2014-04-10T04:25:01Z son-o-ydkus: ok compiled 4.8.0.5
2014-04-10T04:25:04Z son-o-ydkus: awesome
2014-04-10T04:25:25Z son-o-ydkus: wow
2014-04-10T04:25:40Z son-o-ydkus: last time I tried it didn't compile
2014-04-10T04:25:45Z son-o-ydkus: this time 0 problems
2014-04-10T04:26:37Z son-o-ydkus: kick ass!
2014-04-10T04:26:42Z son-o-ydkus: now I wonder
2014-04-10T04:26:47Z son-o-ydkus: since I needed to use gmake
2014-04-10T04:26:58Z son-o-ydkus: I wonder if chicken install will work
2014-04-10T04:28:29Z son-o-ydkus: doing chicken-install awful so far so good lots of stuff happening
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2014-04-10T04:34:12Z son-o-ydkus: success
2014-04-10T04:34:19Z son-o-ydkus: how good are the docs for awful?
2014-04-10T04:34:25Z offby1: they're awful
2014-04-10T04:34:32Z offby1: obvy
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2014-04-10T04:37:08Z leo2007: what is awful?
2014-04-10T04:38:08Z son-o-ydkus: website framework
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2014-04-10T05:10:54Z son-o-ydkus: gods I lov myself
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2014-04-10T06:28:40Z ProbonoBonobo: I heard praises of this channel on HN today... anyone else working through SICP?
2014-04-10T06:31:10Z DrDuck: I am :D
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2014-04-10T06:32:44Z DrDuck: Are you? #symbo1ics is another good place. I'm on 1.46 currently. :D
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2014-04-10T06:33:29Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm on 3.8!  Beginning to struggle, but I want to break through...
2014-04-10T06:34:12Z DrDuck: Welp you're probably in the right place for help. :)
2014-04-10T06:35:15Z DrDuck: Encouragement, too.
2014-04-10T06:35:19Z ProbonoBonobo: Symbolics... that's... the lisp machine company, isn't it?
2014-04-10T06:35:46Z DrDuck: #symbo1ics the IRC channel here on freenode.
2014-04-10T06:36:09Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm starting to think I need encouragement more than help. :)
2014-04-10T06:37:11Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm actually going through this book as part of the lower division CS curriculum at Berkeley, which is interesting...
2014-04-10T06:37:23Z ProbonoBonobo: It's a solid book that I've wanted to learn for a while, but.
2014-04-10T06:37:36Z ProbonoBonobo: There aren't any professors for the class.  It's sink or swim
2014-04-10T06:37:47Z ProbonoBonobo: Almost completely self-guided
2014-04-10T06:37:53Z kilimanjaro: there are video lectures available
2014-04-10T06:38:01Z kilimanjaro: they correspond to a slightly older version but w/e
2014-04-10T06:38:14Z ProbonoBonobo: I do love those lectures
2014-04-10T06:38:41Z kilimanjaro: you get to watch sussman pretend to be a computer
2014-04-10T06:39:35Z ProbonoBonobo: I think where I struggle is the point after which I've designed a solution, and then I execute it, resulting in an error
2014-04-10T06:40:09Z ProbonoBonobo: I haven't figured out where it is with the Ch 3 exercises that I'm going wrong.
2014-04-10T06:41:00Z ProbonoBonobo: How do you usually work with your IDE to figure out where precisely the kinks in your program are?
2014-04-10T06:41:24Z ProbonoBonobo: I tried looking up the step process in emacs, and the documentation was absolutely bewildering
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2014-04-10T06:42:45Z kilimanjaro: i usually write small functions and test them out as I write them
2014-04-10T06:43:09Z kilimanjaro: if there is an exception thrown or something i might see if i can use the debugger to see what is happening
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2014-04-10T06:43:46Z kilimanjaro: but really i am a simple man, i just add a bunch of code to spew output for me to read through
2014-04-10T06:44:13Z ProbonoBonobo: that seems like good advice, i'm trying to simplify my technique a little bit
2014-04-10T06:44:48Z ProbonoBonobo: there's this very good, very weird little book i read at the beginning of the semester called the little schemer
2014-04-10T06:45:15Z ProbonoBonobo: and i think it's the bee's knees, but i'm beginning to find
2014-04-10T06:45:26Z ProbonoBonobo: (now that we're dealing with stateful functions)
2014-04-10T06:45:47Z ProbonoBonobo: that the style of code in that book is almost too byzantine to be debuggable
2014-04-10T06:46:57Z ProbonoBonobo: e.g., too many points of failure, the functions it teaches you to write are like these swiss army knives
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2014-04-10T10:55:26Z zacts: if I end up transfering to UCBerkeley, I will probably do the self paced SICP. I don't really know why they are using python for their main SICP course.
2014-04-10T10:56:17Z zacts: I've seen lectures for both the original Berkeley (scheme) SICP, and the python SICP. I personally prefer the original (scheme) to python.
2014-04-10T10:57:08Z robb2: SICP is so hard to work though on your own
2014-04-10T10:57:29Z zacts: regardless of which university, I'm going to be doing SICP (scheme) anyway.
2014-04-10T10:57:31Z taylanub: Depends on your existing level.
2014-04-10T10:57:58Z robb2: I found the first chapter to be the hardest - I've been stuck on 1 problem for a few weeks, now
2014-04-10T10:58:09Z taylanub: It's meant as an intro to CS though, isn't it ?  In that case, I'd guess it's hardr.
2014-04-10T10:58:11Z taylanub: hard*
2014-04-10T10:59:30Z zacts: it can be challenging, but I'm up for the challenge
2014-04-10T11:00:53Z zacts: I'm working on reviewing my calculus now.. among other things. I'm also reading Scheme and the Art of Programming and the Little Schemer books in preparation.
2014-04-10T11:01:05Z zacts: I've already read Simply Scheme.
2014-04-10T11:01:34Z robb2: Are you buying a physical copy, someone on github formatted the online version into a nice pdf https://github.com/sarabander/sicp-pdf
2014-04-10T11:02:01Z zacts: robb2: I already own a physical copy of the second edition
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2014-04-10T11:15:03Z pjb:  taylanub: an intro for CS for people the educational system has missed.
2014-04-10T11:16:32Z zacts: pjb: I don't understand that sentence
2014-04-10T11:18:30Z pjb: My stance is that normal people have no difficulty in understanding sicp.  Normal people such as those who study at MIT.
2014-04-10T11:18:52Z pjb: And those are not genius, they're just the normal human being that haven't been broken by the "educational system".
2014-04-10T11:19:40Z zacts: heh, I see
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2014-04-10T11:59:07Z leo2007: zacts: simply scheme? where to find it?
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2014-04-10T12:05:24Z iSRAELiWORK: hi guys
2014-04-10T12:05:46Z iSRAELiWORK: im trying to figure out a way to define multiple products in one page
2014-04-10T12:05:50Z iSRAELiWORK: which scheme would you use?
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2014-04-10T12:28:25Z zacts: leo2007: um.. it's a free book online
2014-04-10T12:28:59Z zacts: leo2007: http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/ss-toc2.html
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2014-04-10T12:51:37Z Exploter: any one have example of discount schema
2014-04-10T12:51:56Z Exploter: i dont sure how to insert it to the code
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2014-04-10T12:53:59Z Riastradh: Exploter: Why do you think this is the right channel for that inquiry?
2014-04-10T12:54:44Z Exploter: its schema.org channel?
2014-04-10T12:55:36Z Riastradh: Are you confusing the letters `e' and `a'?
2014-04-10T12:57:36Z Exploter: ohhh sorry:X
2014-04-10T12:58:31Z Riastradh: iSRAELiWORK, are you having the same problem with letters?
2014-04-10T12:58:54Z iSRAELiWORK: Exploter
2014-04-10T12:59:02Z iSRAELiWORK: אמרתי לך שזה לא הערוץ הנכון
2014-04-10T12:59:03Z iSRAELiWORK: חחחחחחחחחחח
2014-04-10T12:59:06Z Exploter: :P
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2014-04-10T12:59:21Z iSRAELiWORK: אצא לי מכאן
2014-04-10T12:59:35Z Exploter: thanks Riastradh
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2014-04-10T13:00:01Z Riastradh: That was weird.
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2014-04-10T13:17:02Z leo2007: Riastradh: hi, did you receive my reply on paredit-raise-kill?
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2014-04-10T13:24:26Z Riastradh: Yes.
2014-04-10T13:24:58Z Riastradh: I have not found time to try it out.
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2014-04-10T18:42:08Z theseb: regarding lists there is an asymmetry in car and cdr (first/rest)
2014-04-10T18:42:25Z theseb: The only 2 ways I can see to "remedy" this is to have a method called
2014-04-10T18:42:34Z theseb: "last"
2014-04-10T18:42:59Z theseb: that returns the last element....and something called all_but_first that is like the opposite of cdr/rest...right?
2014-04-10T18:43:34Z theseb: another way to "solve" this "problem" is to have a method called "reverse" that reversed the order of elements in a list!
2014-04-10T18:44:08Z theseb: the point is....you need a few primitive methods (last, reverse, all_but_first) ...i don't think these can be written in pure scheme
2014-04-10T18:44:15Z pjdelport: this is not so much an asymmetry, as natural expression of the underlying pair/nil type
2014-04-10T18:44:22Z theseb: yes
2014-04-10T18:44:29Z ijp: you can write a last if you want to
2014-04-10T18:44:43Z theseb: pjdelport: i agree but that doesn't help when you NEED to access the other end! :)
2014-04-10T18:44:43Z pjdelport: the thing to make it symmetrical is snoc lists
2014-04-10T18:45:12Z ijp: theseb: so use a different sequence type
2014-04-10T18:45:32Z pjdelport: theseb: well, if you only need to access the other end, then you want snoc lists instead
2014-04-10T18:45:35Z ijp: like one based on fingertrees
2014-04-10T18:45:39Z theseb: ijp: well...yea....leave list-land..sure...that would work of course
2014-04-10T18:45:39Z pjdelport: if you need random access, you probably want vectors
2014-04-10T18:46:06Z ijp: of course, now you pay more for each operation
2014-04-10T18:46:28Z theseb: vectors are "real lisp" rather than the primitive primordial lisp that was JUST lists :)
2014-04-10T18:46:42Z ijp: anyway, strictly lisp doesn't have lists
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2014-04-10T18:46:48Z ijp: they are a convention on pairs
2014-04-10T18:47:04Z pjdelport: vectors are arguably more "real lisp" than the hack that is car / cdr :P
2014-04-10T18:47:18Z ijp: pjdelport: hack?
2014-04-10T18:47:40Z pjdelport: that and pairs were originally just an implementation detail
2014-04-10T18:47:58Z ijp: what?
2014-04-10T18:48:01Z pjdelport: i mean, car and cdr are IBM 704 assembly instructions
2014-04-10T18:48:20Z pjdelport: (originally)
2014-04-10T18:48:38Z ijp: that is where the name comes from, but it doesn't make pairs a hack
2014-04-10T18:48:41Z pjdelport: they just became ingrained and accepted
2014-04-10T18:48:56Z pjdelport: ijp: i didn't say it's a bad hack; it's a great hack
2014-04-10T18:48:59Z pjdelport: that's why it stuck around
2014-04-10T18:49:12Z ijp rolls eyes, parts
2014-04-10T18:49:37Z theseb: ijp, pjdelport: oh wait!! I know how to have theoretical elegance and practicality!..... if you could *implement* vectors with just lists and macros, etc. that would be coolness
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2014-04-10T18:49:57Z pjdelport: theseb: then they wouldn't be vectors
2014-04-10T18:50:09Z theseb: pjdelport: they would *appear* to the user to be vectors
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2014-04-10T18:50:16Z theseb: pjdelport: but yes they wouldn't have the performance
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2014-04-10T18:50:46Z pjdelport: not when users notice their O(N) algorithms are suddenly O(N²)
2014-04-10T18:51:43Z pjdelport: you can't completely ignore performance, even when treating data structures in the abstract
2014-04-10T18:52:15Z theseb: pjdelport: simplicity and performance are 2 forces that unfortunately pull in opposite directions
2014-04-10T18:52:28Z pjdelport: the general guarantees (like whether operations are constant or linear or whatever) are part of the interface
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2014-04-10T18:52:36Z theseb: pjdelport: perhaps students should first make a simple scheme implmenation and only later add the hacks to make it fast
2014-04-10T18:53:03Z pjdelport: theseb: algorithmic complexity is more than "making it fast"; that's part of making it correct
2014-04-10T18:53:32Z pjdelport: e.g. you can't implement quicksort algorithm without vector-like data structure, with random access
2014-04-10T18:53:42Z pjdelport: if you do it with linked lists, it's no longer quicksort
2014-04-10T18:53:49Z theseb: pjdelport: sure....all i'm saying is maybe your brain can manage those 2 forces simultaneously......it is enough for me just to understand simple elegant slow scheme for now
2014-04-10T18:53:54Z ijp: pjdelport: I disagree
2014-04-10T18:55:01Z theseb: pjdelport: ever heard of Turing Machines? people call things "correct" in that field all the time with ridiculous run times....different priorities
2014-04-10T18:55:05Z ijp: quicksort is an algorithm that sorts a list
2014-04-10T18:55:20Z ijp: it is a correct sorting algorithm because, given any list, it returns it in sorted order
2014-04-10T18:55:27Z theseb: pjdelport: sounds like you've spent a lot of time doing "real work" :)
2014-04-10T18:55:33Z Riastradh: Some people like to call what you're thinking of `tree sort', not `quicksort'.
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2014-04-10T18:56:12Z pjdelport: theseb: I'm quite familiar with that, yes; the universality of Turing completeness has nothing to do with the correct implementation of particular algorithms like quicksort
2014-04-10T18:56:22Z ijp: bogosort is also a correct sorting algorith, because given any list, it returns a sorted list
2014-04-10T18:56:29Z theseb: heh...gotta love this channel...Riastradh lurks to provide the deux ex machina at the appropriate times :)
2014-04-10T18:56:47Z pjdelport: ijp: quicksort's definition is not about the input list, it's about the working state
2014-04-10T18:56:51Z ijp: quicksort should be preferred to bogosort for efficiency reasons, not because it is somehow more correct
2014-04-10T18:56:59Z pjdelport: ijp: the algorithm is defined in terms of a random-access buffer
2014-04-10T18:57:15Z pjdelport: if you implement a sorting algorithm without that, you have a different sorting algorithm, not quicksort
2014-04-10T18:57:28Z DerGuteMoritz: theseb: why shouldn't you be able to define a `last' procedure in scheme?
2014-04-10T18:57:29Z ijp: let's try this a different way
2014-04-10T18:57:45Z ijp: is a hawaiian pizza not a correct pizza because it doesn't have pepporoni?
2014-04-10T18:57:48Z pjdelport: ijp: this is probably a futile discussion; i don't really want to get into a semantic debate
2014-04-10T18:58:04Z theseb: DerGuteMoritz: you probably can...i'd need to think about it..i'm a newb.....yea probably with a recursive func it could be done
2014-04-10T18:58:11Z Riastradh: ijp, pjdelport isn't objecting that an algorithm to sort a list is not correct; he's objecting to calling an algorithm quicksort when it is tree sort.
2014-04-10T18:58:32Z pjdelport: ijp: this has nothing to with something being a correct sorting algorithm, it has to do with whether the algorithm is a correct implementation of *quicksort* or not
2014-04-10T18:58:36Z DerGuteMoritz: theseb: yep, and recursion is what scheme is all about :-)
2014-04-10T18:59:03Z ijp: Riastradh: but it's a stupid distinction to make in the first place
2014-04-10T18:59:11Z Riastradh: Why is it stupid?
2014-04-10T18:59:44Z pjdelport: like Riastradh said, the sorting algorithm you usually see defined on linked lists is treesort, not quicksort
2014-04-10T19:00:08Z pjdelport: it bears some superficial similarities to quicksort, but it's not quicksort
2014-04-10T19:00:33Z ijp: okay, if I use a different choice of splitting function from Hoare, say median of three, is it no longer quicksort?
2014-04-10T19:01:03Z ijp: if I tail recurse on one of the subtrees is it no longer quicksort?
2014-04-10T19:01:14Z theseb: semantics...just semantics......so people define things differently......we all agree on that...move on
2014-04-10T19:01:15Z pjdelport: DerGuteMoritz: the reason that no-one tends to define procedures for last and all-but-last is that they're almost always a sign that you're using the data structure wrong
2014-04-10T19:01:33Z ijp: these are in a sense trivial optimisation decisions, but they would make somethign NOT EXACTLY QUICKSORT AS HOARE DEFINED IT
2014-04-10T19:01:36Z pjdelport: if you ever find yourself wanting them, it probably means you actually want snoc lists or vectors
2014-04-10T19:02:12Z ijp: it strikes me as overly pedantic
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2014-04-10T19:03:39Z Riastradh: Quicksort requires O(log n) temporary space; treesort requires Theta(n) temporary space.
2014-04-10T19:04:13Z Riastradh: The difference between O(log n) and Theta(n) is not in general considered a `trivial optimization decision'.
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2014-04-10T19:06:30Z z0d: what is Theta?
2014-04-10T19:06:36Z ijp: z0d: hard bound
2014-04-10T19:06:43Z Riastradh: Tight bound.
2014-04-10T19:07:01Z DerGuteMoritz: pjdelport: no-one? SRFI-1 defines both of them and is included with most implementations. of course, you should not be using those unwittingly but for some things (like exploration on the repl or with very short lists) they can be useful. anyway, the question was about whether it is at all possible to implement them.
2014-04-10T19:07:05Z Riastradh: You can think of it like `= n', whereas O(log n) is like `<= log n'.
2014-04-10T19:07:29Z ijp: Riastradh: anyway, Quicksort based on a random choice of pivot (as hoare intended) is worst case O(n) space
2014-04-10T19:07:31Z pjdelport: DerGuteMoritz: true :)
2014-04-10T19:07:49Z ijp: because worst choice of pivot gives you a list
2014-04-10T19:07:53Z z0d: thanks
2014-04-10T19:07:55Z pjdelport: DerGuteMoritz: but yeah, no-one would advocate them for general use, i mean
2014-04-10T19:08:32Z pjdelport: ijp: All the things you mentioned are variations on quicksort; they're still the quicksort family of sorting algorithms.
2014-04-10T19:08:37Z ijp: *family*
2014-04-10T19:08:45Z ijp: now we're getting somewhere
2014-04-10T19:08:47Z Riastradh: ijp, yes, worst-case, but not average-case, which is what people are usually concerned with when quicksort is involved.
2014-04-10T19:08:56Z pjdelport: ijp: Yes; a family that does not include tree sorts, insertion sorts, merge sorts, or whatever else.
2014-04-10T19:09:03Z Riastradh: If you're concerned with worst-case performance you don't use quicksort; you use merge sort or heap sort.
2014-04-10T19:09:19Z pjdelport: This is not pedantry; it's how the algorithms are commonly defined and classified.
2014-04-10T19:10:20Z ijp: I object to your phrasing
2014-04-10T19:10:35Z ijp: whether or not an algorithm is correct depends on its problem
2014-04-10T19:11:08Z ijp: <pjdelport> theseb: algorithmic complexity is more than "making it fast"; that's part of making it correct
2014-04-10T19:11:15Z pjdelport: ijp: Whether an algorithm is a correct *sorting* algorithm or a correct *quicksort* implementation are two different questions.
2014-04-10T19:11:16Z ijp: that is what I object to
2014-04-10T19:11:25Z ijp: complexity has nothing to do with correctness
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2014-04-10T19:12:41Z ijp: the distinction is between programs implementing an algorithm, and algorithms solving a problem
2014-04-10T19:12:41Z Riastradh: Nobody claimed treesort is not `correct' in the sense of being a sorting algorithm.
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2014-04-10T19:13:33Z ijp: Riastradh: is the complexity of an *algorithm*, part of what makes an *algorithm* correct
2014-04-10T19:13:42Z pjdelport: ijp: FWIW, this may be interesting reading: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/2h0j2/real_quicksort_in_haskell/
2014-04-10T19:13:46Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/jvgabne
2014-04-10T19:13:53Z Riastradh: I don't know what you're trying to accomplish, ijp.
2014-04-10T19:13:58Z pjdelport: (and the linked article)
2014-04-10T19:14:27Z Riastradh: Treesort is a correct sorting algorithm.  But it has qualitatively different average-case space complexity from quicksort.
2014-04-10T19:14:40Z Riastradh: Hence it is usually considered a substantially distinct algorithm.
2014-04-10T19:14:41Z pjdelport: it's in Haskell, but the discussion covers the difference between quicksort and deforested treesort; it's about the same in Scheme, modulo syntax
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2014-04-10T19:17:45Z Riastradh: So it figures differently into engineering decisions, as do vectors versus lists.
2014-04-10T19:17:53Z ijp: Riastradh: I am trying to get agreement on what pjdelport dismisses as a semantic issue
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2014-04-10T19:20:07Z ijp: is algorithmic complexity part of making somethign correct?
2014-04-10T19:20:11Z Riastradh: The semantic issue is that the two of you were talking past one another.  You seemed to think pjdelport called treesort incorrect.
2014-04-10T19:21:23Z ijp: <theseb> pjdelport: perhaps students should first make a simple scheme implmenation and only later add the hacks to make it fast <pjdelport> theseb: algorithmic complexity is more than "making it fast";
2014-04-10T19:21:59Z turbofail: i think you got truncated
2014-04-10T19:22:01Z Riastradh: Correct implementation of quicksort vs correct sorting algorithm.
2014-04-10T19:22:03Z ijp: I did
2014-04-10T19:22:56Z turbofail looks up the etymology of truncate
2014-04-10T19:23:19Z Riastradh: An implementation of merge sort computes a correct sorting algorithm.  That doesn't make merge sort quicksort.
2014-04-10T19:23:49Z ijp: Riastradh: the example has only muddied things
2014-04-10T19:23:53Z Riastradh: If you're still worried about this, I suggest you step aside, make a pot of tea, and perhaps take a walk in the lovely spring weather.
2014-04-10T19:24:03Z Riastradh: (or fall weather, if you're in the southern hemisphere)
2014-04-10T19:24:25Z ijp: it's getting too dark for a walk
2014-04-10T19:26:47Z pjdelport: fall is late here in the southern hemisphere; still as hot as summer
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2014-04-10T19:28:31Z z0d: spring here
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2014-04-10T19:33:14Z Riastradh: Well, I'm in the eastwestern hemisphere, so the weather is still in purgatory.
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2014-04-10T19:56:01Z theseb: Riastradh: eastwestern? :)
2014-04-10T19:56:36Z theseb: Riastradh: as in like CO or NM?..i guess we can make sense of that
2014-04-10T19:56:48Z theseb: west with a sprinkle of east
2014-04-10T19:57:31Z theseb: sorry...i'll never be able to pull your chain on lisp stuff so this is my last chance to be pedantic :)
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2014-04-10T21:53:30Z zacts: ok I have a weird idea..
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2014-04-10T21:56:33Z zacts: implement C using a (scheme-like) syntax
2014-04-10T21:57:05Z zacts: I don't mean chicken scheme, a true scheme over C, but C using scheme syntax..
2014-04-10T21:59:06Z ijp: prescheme
2014-04-10T21:59:08Z asumu: zacts: you may be interested in prescheme
2014-04-10T21:59:13Z asumu: Whoops, ijp beat me.
2014-04-10T21:59:48Z zacts: oh nice
2014-04-10T21:59:56Z ijp: no-one expects the scottish inquisition
2014-04-10T22:00:18Z zacts: so are there living implementations of this mythical language?
2014-04-10T22:00:37Z ijp: prescheme was a part of scheme48
2014-04-10T22:01:08Z zacts: was(?)
2014-04-10T22:01:14Z zacts: or is?
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2014-04-10T22:05:35Z asumu: If you look in the S48 repo, there's still a prescheme->c compiler and some prescheme code, so it might still be used: http://www.s48.org/cgi-bin/hgwebdir.cgi/s48-stable/file/3f7656c2cdec
2014-04-10T22:05:36Z ijp: yes
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2014-04-10T22:18:32Z names: ccl-logbot waxysubs` nisstyre w0rm fikusz c74d3a ehaliewicz aretecode themonlar pnkfelix amgarchIn9 oleo _8680_ yrdz nalaginrut Fare MichaelRaskin ijp ASau jxv leppie stamourv REPLeffect Blkt Kruppe Kneferilis cmatei pjb guampa zeroish hive-mind eMBee yacks bjz_ DGASAU frkout rsf omefire1 leo2007 joneshf-laptop taylanub juanfra zarul[afk] defanor mrowe_away ctindall evhan cdidd balkamos ft zbigniew_ Guest54857 greghendershott acieroid josso kbtr
2014-04-10T22:18:32Z names: _will_ robb2 arbscht zacts staticshock enand _5kg cosmez` effy karswell sethalves chrisirc Razz Nshag cmpitg jaimef cataska githogori aftershave pjdelport jyc sveit antoszka LostDatagram fizzie ffs ivan\ kwmiebach joast kilimanjaro_ kilimanjaro gnomon choas dorkcat akp `^_^v jj2baile joneshf-work dan64 tenq|out vagn peted Natch clog cratuki inarru rotty Giomancer zephyrfalcon jkraemer dytrivedi asumu superjudge ecraven stamourv` pchrist fadein
2014-04-10T22:18:32Z names: mornfall cross janelleb ozzloy finnrobi nicdev cibs ggherdov tali713 gluegadget ohama tessier mbishop jrslepak emma aoh z0d cjh` aking gf3 samth teiresias twem2 duncanm Khisanth haroldwu SirDayBat acarrico aeth certainty yosafbridge pyro- ineiros copec SHODAN ZombieChicken stephe__ amoe C-Keen offby1 rudybot aap_ cky peterhil` dpk Averell Rodya_ brendyn mmc LeoNerd Saeren ada2358_ m4burns mario-goulart turbofail Kabaka_ xian DerGuteMoritz misv ec
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2014-04-10T22:29:35Z mario-goulart: zacts: also http://synthcode.com/scheme/fmt/#SECTION_6
2014-04-10T22:30:23Z zacts: cool, I'm guessing in a weird way this might be a fun/interesting segway into C for me
2014-04-10T22:30:45Z zacts: even if I have to implement the prescheme compiler myself.
2014-04-10T22:41:48Z zacts: mario-goulart: oh way cool!
2014-04-10T22:41:50Z zacts: I see it now
2014-04-10T22:46:01Z zacts: are there scheme libraries to parse C?
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2014-04-10T22:46:15Z zacts: so I can go the other way around, turn C into prescheme?
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2014-04-10T22:49:39Z offby1: zacts: I'd be surprised if anyone wrote a serious C compiler in Scheme.
2014-04-10T22:50:03Z zacts: offby1: not a C compiler, just a syntax parser
2014-04-10T22:50:08Z offby1: And if they did, I'd be even more surprised if it was _portable_ scheme.
2014-04-10T22:50:23Z zacts: offby1: I guess I was thinking chicken might have something like this
2014-04-10T22:50:40Z zacts: as that it does have to know about C to turn scheme into C
2014-04-10T22:51:10Z zacts: I only want to turn C syntax into prescheme syntax and vice versa..
2014-04-10T22:51:14Z offby1: turning scheme into C is going the other way; that's much easier.
2014-04-10T22:51:20Z offby1: _emitting_ valid C is pretty easy.
2014-04-10T22:51:30Z zacts: yeah that's my only goal
2014-04-10T22:51:54Z zacts: and then parsing a C file and emitting valid prescheme
2014-04-10T22:52:25Z offby1: oh, well, there you are.
2014-04-10T22:53:04Z zacts: I was just wondering if there is a C -> prescheme library, or if I should implement it myself, which would be fun.
2014-04-10T22:53:51Z offby1: yikes
2014-04-10T22:54:02Z offby1: emitting prescheme, once you've parsed the C, is probably easy.
2014-04-10T22:54:15Z offby1:    (Note that I've never even taken a compiler class, let alone actually written a compiler.)
2014-04-10T22:54:18Z offby1: but ...
2014-04-10T22:54:20Z offby1: C is pretty hairy.
2014-04-10T22:54:34Z offby1: Maybe not as bad as some other stuff, but if you actually want to do it right ... *sigh*
2014-04-10T22:55:10Z offby1: if it were me, I'd see if I could highjack gcc or llvm: perhaps those things will emit the parse tree in some easily-readable format.  That way you don't have to actually parse anything, if you don't mind "shelling out" to those programs.
2014-04-10T22:55:16Z zacts: offby1: well, perhaps a better idea is to use a UNIX C parser already written with a (system "parse-c lo.c") or something like that.
2014-04-10T22:55:17Z offby1: s/high/hi/ I guess
2014-04-10T22:55:21Z turbofail: i feel like there's going to be valid C programs that have no valid prescheme conversion
2014-04-10T22:55:24Z offby1: jinx
2014-04-10T22:56:42Z turbofail: there's no really good reason to turn C into prescheme
2014-04-10T22:57:01Z zacts: I see
2014-04-10T22:57:20Z turbofail: you might want to parse headers for usage with an FFI, maybe
2014-04-10T22:57:31Z turbofail: but that still wouldn't be turning it "into prescheme"
2014-04-10T22:59:32Z zacts: the only goal for this is fun/educational
2014-04-10T22:59:51Z offby1: you got a weird idea of fun, Son
2014-04-10T22:59:59Z zacts: but I don't want it to be crazyness to the point to where it takes me two years to complete. I'm thinking of like a weekend project or something.
2014-04-10T23:00:06Z offby1: ♩ ♪ ♫ "That ain't the way to have fun, Son"   ♬ ♭ ♮ ♯
2014-04-10T23:00:28Z zacts: ok
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2014-04-10T23:02:28Z zacts: offby1: I have to goal of implementing impossible algorithms in finite time the rest of my life. like parsing perl with scheme. ;-)
2014-04-10T23:02:59Z offby1: yeah right
2014-04-10T23:03:05Z offby1: even Larry Wall can't parse perl!
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2014-04-10T23:06:55Z ijp: chuck norris can parse perl with his fists
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2014-04-10T23:23:55Z Fare: perl parses itself in fear of Chuck Norris's fist.
2014-04-10T23:26:37Z offby1: The Most Interesting Man In the World simply looks at perl code, and it rewrites itself as APL.
2014-04-10T23:28:47Z DerGuteMoritz: I don't always write Perl, but when I do it turns into APL
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2014-04-10T23:58:54Z pjdelport: zacts: you may be interested in BitC
2014-04-11T00:00:32Z pjdelport: It's not exactly C with S-expression syntax, but somewhat close.
2014-04-11T00:00:42Z pjdelport: http://stackoverflow.com/a/2064227/444705 links to a few more related projects
2014-04-11T00:01:44Z offby1 invests heavily in BitC
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2014-04-11T00:20:17Z zacts: oh cool
2014-04-11T00:20:37Z zacts: isn't BitC that project that was used for coyotos a few years back?
2014-04-11T00:21:09Z zacts: I think they went to C like syntax for a while, before they were using (s-expr) like syntax.
2014-04-11T00:21:10Z offby1: ugh
2014-04-11T00:21:17Z offby1: that does sound familiar.
2014-04-11T00:21:27Z offby1: Man, coyotos had my hopes up for a while there.
2014-04-11T00:21:33Z offby1: Until it vanishes as do most projects.
2014-04-11T00:21:40Z offby1: v a n i s h e d
2014-04-11T00:21:52Z zacts: I remember that back when I was all interested in the HURD, and tried it on an old laptop for a week or so. (this was before the debian installer)
2014-04-11T00:22:35Z zacts: offby1: yeah, the HURD guys were interested in coyotos for a while, iirc.
2014-04-11T00:23:08Z zacts: lol, I think HURD made my laptop catch fire actually..
2014-04-11T00:23:23Z zacts: I've had two computers do that to me my entire life. one from HURD, and one from cat piss.
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2014-04-11T00:31:27Z zacts: ok, so can I implement letrec with pure lambdas?
2014-04-11T00:31:43Z zacts: similar to how let is syntactic sugar for an extra lambda?
2014-04-11T00:32:07Z zacts: I'm thinking of how mutual recursion can affect this..
2014-04-11T00:32:22Z ijp: you need set!
2014-04-11T00:32:28Z ijp: or a primitive like FIX
2014-04-11T00:32:56Z ijp: not counting a ycombinator style hack
2014-04-11T00:33:23Z zacts: oh, really. ok interesting, that's good to know.
2014-04-11T00:33:45Z pjdelport: oh noes
2014-04-11T00:33:47Z pjdelport: LtU is down
2014-04-11T00:35:50Z pjdelport: zacts: you may be interested in http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/fixing-letrec.pdf
2014-04-11T00:37:41Z zacts: thanx
2014-04-11T00:39:09Z zacts: so why would one want to use letrec vs internal helping procedures?
2014-04-11T00:39:47Z ijp: letrec is an expression, internal defines are not
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2014-04-11T00:42:01Z zacts: and what is the advantage of that?
2014-04-11T00:42:03Z ijp: hmm, I'm not sure a y-combinator implementation of letrec would behave correctly in the presence of non-function right hand sides
2014-04-11T00:42:35Z zacts: I mean is there a practical advantage vs syntactic sugar, and having everything at the top of the procedure's definition?
2014-04-11T00:42:41Z ijp: zacts: suppose are writing a macro that expands into mutual recursive functions
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2014-04-11T00:43:03Z ijp: if it expands into defines, then it can't be used in places like (+ (your-macro) bar)
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2014-04-11T00:43:24Z zacts: oh I see
2014-04-11T00:43:28Z ijp: it's hard to come up with a good example though
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2014-04-11T00:43:41Z zacts: yeah, but I think I get the gist of what you are saying
2014-04-11T00:44:13Z zacts: oh, so letrec also lets you use a previously defined variable in the next variable. left -> right.
2014-04-11T00:44:15Z zacts: iirc
2014-04-11T00:44:29Z zacts: so that is an advantage also
2014-04-11T00:44:40Z zacts: (letrec ((x 13) (y (+ x 2)))))
2014-04-11T00:44:51Z ijp: this is not actually a correct use of letrec
2014-04-11T00:45:00Z ijp: the order is not defined
2014-04-11T00:45:23Z ijp: r5rs internal definitions also do not have a definite order
2014-04-11T00:45:26Z zacts: ijp: oh you know what confused me was that pdf linked above
2014-04-11T00:45:49Z zacts: " A variant of
2014-04-11T00:45:49Z zacts: letrec
2014-04-11T00:45:50Z zacts: that enforces left-to-right evaluation of
2014-04-11T00:45:51Z zacts: bindings is also presented and shown to add virtually no overhead."
2014-04-11T00:45:57Z zacts: oops, that was meant to be one line
2014-04-11T00:46:06Z ijp: letrec* is ordered left to right, and r6rs internal definitions are defined in terms of letrec*
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2014-04-11T00:46:56Z zacts: ijp: are internal defines new? (newer than 1986?)
2014-04-11T00:47:10Z zacts: I'm just curious as to why SAOP is using letrec in the way it is vs using defines..
2014-04-11T00:47:22Z ijp: internal defines are not new
2014-04-11T00:48:38Z ijp: no idea about the exact date, but if the first edition of SICP used internal defines, then they would have to exist in 1984
2014-04-11T00:49:05Z zacts: although they are discussing environments and bound variables, and for some reason they don't seem to use internal defines throughout the rest of the book.
2014-04-11T00:50:51Z zacts: but it's a good book though so far.. and a fairly quick read.
2014-04-11T00:51:15Z zacts: although, one criticism(?) I have is that they mention data abstraction before higher order procedures.
2014-04-11T00:52:12Z zacts: but it's by the same dude who wrote the little schemer books
2014-04-11T00:56:09Z zacts: so let can also make code much more efficient by evaluating parts of the code only once, rather than repeating work
2014-04-11T00:56:27Z zacts: there was a term for this in higher-order-perl, was it caching?
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2014-04-11T01:13:38Z ijp: zacts: btw, here is the mutually recursive y https://gist.github.com/10435657
2014-04-11T01:13:47Z ijp: it took me a few goes to get it right
2014-04-11T01:14:24Z ijp: gah, the comments on the macro are from a previous version
2014-04-11T01:16:29Z ijp: fixed
2014-04-11T01:17:27Z zacts: cool
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2014-04-11T01:19:50Z zacts: oh, so (letrec ((swap (lambda (ls*) ...))) (swap ls))
2014-04-11T01:20:03Z zacts: is the ls* is a common naming convention?
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2014-04-11T01:21:01Z ijp: foo* has a general meaning of "like foo, but different"
2014-04-11T01:21:09Z zacts: ok
2014-04-11T01:21:23Z zacts: oh I see
2014-04-11T01:22:03Z zacts: so in this case. the outer body of the procedure swapper also has an ls, so the ls* differentiates the internal ls* call from the outer ls.
2014-04-11T01:22:12Z zacts: let me pastebin, to make sure I'm correct here.
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2014-04-11T01:24:38Z zacts: ijp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141985
2014-04-11T01:25:04Z zacts: so the ls* is to differentiate from the outer ls argument.. ok. simple. :D
2014-04-11T01:25:24Z ijp: since ls is not used in the function, it isn't strictly necessary, but yes
2014-04-11T01:26:41Z zacts: but the point is that it's a naming *convention*, and not a special magic feature of letrec. I understand now..
2014-04-11T01:27:45Z ijp: that function would be simpler as a map
2014-04-11T01:27:52Z zacts: I like how scheme doesn't seem to have many magic things it does by guessing 'what you want', not like perl in that regard.
2014-04-11T01:28:38Z zacts: ijp: well, I think they are presenting it specifically to illustrate environments and let / letrec
2014-04-11T01:29:19Z zacts: ijp: like there are no invisible default $_ like variables, but those can be useful for certain quick fixes, but yeah..
2014-04-11T01:30:15Z zacts: perl actually implements invisible variables!
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2014-04-11T01:56:29Z zacts: LeoNerd: so parameterize is like a let that you can modify outside of the internal definition of radix, for example?
2014-04-11T01:56:48Z zacts: so you can have a default init variable, but if you want to change it you can outside of the definition
2014-04-11T01:57:10Z LeoNerd: parameterize is much like a  { local $foo = ....  }
2014-04-11T02:07:24Z zacts: LeoNerd: I've been away from perl for >= 6 months, but ... my $slurp; { local $/ = " "; $slurp = <$fh> } would be a better example right? I mean when do you often use local variables in Perl, except when you are modifying a global variable for a specific scope, or doing some internal perl sourcery?
2014-04-11T02:07:58Z LeoNerd: Yes.. that's a resonable analogy
2014-04-11T02:08:15Z LeoNerd: $/ being a parameter that <...> acts on; and local'y changing it like that being like parameterize
2014-04-11T02:08:55Z LeoNerd: Though I quite often use local also for temporary modifications to objects, or the symbol table. It can be highly useful to locally replace a method in a class
2014-04-11T02:09:17Z zacts: oh interesting!
2014-04-11T02:09:20Z LeoNerd: { local *Some::Object::Class::here = sub { mock the method for a moment };  call something; is(result, expected,...); }
2014-04-11T02:09:25Z LeoNerd: A common pattern
2014-04-11T02:10:01Z zacts: I was thinking of something more closure like I guess.
2014-04-11T02:12:00Z zacts: like an inside out closure or something.
2014-04-11T02:13:07Z zacts: { my $x = 10; sub radix { ... } } and then being able to modify the $x when calling radix().
2014-04-11T02:13:25Z LeoNerd: Yeeahh.. that's kindof the same really
2014-04-11T02:14:10Z zacts: cool! so I guess that is kind of an invisible variable in (scheme). (sort of)
2014-04-11T02:15:36Z zacts: but I still don't think scheme has anything like $_, from what I can see
2014-04-11T02:16:01Z zacts: unless..
2014-04-11T02:17:04Z zacts: (define (lambda (...) (+ x))) ;; <- see this would be like $_ if scheme automagically added x to the parameter list, but you must name the parameters in some way afaik.
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2014-04-11T02:17:43Z zacts: oops (define add-x (lambda (...) (+ x)))
2014-04-11T02:18:27Z zacts: damn messed up again. s/\(+ x\)/(+ 2)/ and then do (add-x 2) => 4
2014-04-11T02:20:05Z zacts: ok, this is like total nerdness. we are arguing over invisible variables in (scheme) lisp.
2014-04-11T02:20:14Z zacts: anyway, laters..
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2014-04-11T04:22:11Z zacts: binary->decimal ;; is the '->' arrow a convention for filters, or what else can it represent in scheme?
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2014-04-11T04:31:26Z nisstyre: zacts: it's conventional for procedures that convert things
2014-04-11T04:33:21Z zacts: ok
2014-04-11T04:34:56Z zacts: I wonder how difficult it would be to simulate something like the ardunio in scheme.
2014-04-11T04:35:14Z zacts: or even a pdp architecture
2014-04-11T04:36:23Z zacts: I notice the schematic diagrams of simulated electronic circuits.
2014-04-11T04:37:08Z zacts: it would probably be simple I would think.
2014-04-11T04:37:44Z nisstyre: zacts: not too hard
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2014-04-11T04:39:56Z zacts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11_architecture
2014-04-11T04:40:01Z zacts: I'll try it sometime
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2014-04-11T17:53:30Z DrDuck: Is there any reference to preferred commenting style in Scheme?
2014-04-11T17:53:44Z taylanub: DrDuck: What Emacs does when you press M-;
2014-04-11T17:53:46Z Riastradh: ;;; Top-level comment.
2014-04-11T17:53:51Z Riastradh: (begin
2014-04-11T17:53:54Z Riastradh:   ;; Code comment.
2014-04-11T17:54:00Z Riastradh:  (frobnitz)              ; Margin comment.
2014-04-11T17:54:01Z Riastradh:   (zargle))
2014-04-11T17:54:10Z Riastradh: ...with one more space before (frobnitz).
2014-04-11T17:54:37Z DrDuck: :)
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2014-04-11T22:25:01Z offby1: zacts: yow, I just looked at http://www.capros.org/ and I could hear my heart break
2014-04-11T22:25:09Z offby1: untouched in five years.
2014-04-11T22:25:17Z offby1: on SourceForge, in _CVS_.
2014-04-11T22:25:25Z offby1: rudybot: is "wankware" a word?  It should be.
2014-04-11T22:25:26Z rudybot: *offby1: Someone have some wise words on what I need to be looking at to understand "uniquenes" (for want of a better word) in elisp. e.g ay I have an overaly property set to be a list '(1 2 3) on one buffer and in another buffer the same. Can I distinguish between them? Or do I need to use the buffer as the "scope" to differentiate them?
2014-04-11T22:25:54Z ijp: offby1: I believe that the makers of Fleshlight may have a trademark on it
2014-04-11T22:33:36Z offby1: Huh, "The EROS Group LLC" is about a 15-minute drive from me.  Who knew.
2014-04-11T22:33:45Z offby1: Guess that's 'cuz Shapiro got a job at MS
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2014-04-12T00:50:14Z zacts: offby1: that's lameo
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2014-04-12T01:50:58Z offby1: zacts: what, Capros, or Shap-in-Woodinville?
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2014-04-12T01:55:12Z zacts: offby1: working for microsoft
2014-04-12T01:58:03Z offby1: guy's gotta eat.
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2014-04-12T01:58:08Z offby1 worked there once long ago
2014-04-12T01:58:09Z offby1 shifts uncomfortably 
2014-04-12T02:02:33Z zacts: what did you do there?
2014-04-12T02:03:52Z offby1: "Software Design Engineer in Test".  Wrote test code for NT's "Active Directory".
2014-04-12T02:04:01Z offby1: nothing that I tested shipped, if I recall correctly :-|
2014-04-12T02:04:54Z ijp: damn, I had $5 on MS BOB
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2014-04-12T09:20:07Z KrazyCod3r: Hey guys
2014-04-12T09:20:32Z KrazyCod3r: So there is a website which offers programming challenges online
2014-04-12T09:20:40Z KrazyCod3r: and they are thinking about supporting a new language
2014-04-12T09:21:00Z KrazyCod3r: And I voted for scheme
2014-04-12T09:21:10Z KrazyCod3r: I really hope it wins >_> http://blog.codeeval.com
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2014-04-12T13:23:17Z leo2007: any scheme implementation that has a reasonably complete swank backend?
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2014-04-12T14:01:40Z z0d: leo2007: S48 if I'm not mistaken
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2014-04-12T14:40:04Z leo2007: z0d: it seems it only supports s48 1.3
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2014-04-12T14:44:39Z z0d: leo2007: it might be dated, to be honest, I haven't checked in years
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2014-04-12T14:48:58Z leo2007: z0d: thanks, I'll take a look.
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2014-04-12T15:19:19Z tony_: Hello?
2014-04-12T15:19:24Z tony_: whois tony_
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2014-04-12T15:25:48Z offby1: Now, that's an excellent question
2014-04-12T15:27:51Z oleo: hello
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2014-04-12T15:48:03Z offby1: nobody here but us zombie processes.
2014-04-12T15:51:46Z z0d: I'm not a process!
2014-04-12T15:51:53Z z0d: I'm a tree of processes
2014-04-12T15:52:28Z oleo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142014 bwaahahahahahas
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2014-04-12T15:54:57Z Riastradh: ?
2014-04-12T15:56:27Z z0d: where is Catfive and Foxfire anyway?
2014-04-12T15:56:37Z Riastradh: Haven't heard from them in years.
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2014-04-12T16:04:05Z offby1: I am not a PID -- I'm a real process!
2014-04-12T16:04:18Z offby1: rudybot: seen catfive
2014-04-12T16:04:18Z rudybot: *offby1: I've never seen catfive before
2014-04-12T16:04:21Z offby1: rudybot: seen foxfire
2014-04-12T16:04:21Z rudybot: *offby1: I've never seen foxfire before
2014-04-12T16:04:24Z offby1: there you have it.
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2014-04-12T17:19:41Z theseb: it has been fun in lisp trying to do stuff with recursion instead of iteration
2014-04-12T17:19:59Z theseb: but does everyone agree iteration (e.g. C and python) is easier and faster?
2014-04-12T17:20:09Z theseb: or is it just me since I'm not *used to* recursion?
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2014-04-12T17:25:13Z oleo: well actually iteration seems easier....but mostly when you begin you find recursion easier up until the point where you have to take care of tail recursion for stacks etc...
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2014-04-12T17:26:11Z oleo: but they are interconvertibles......
2014-04-12T17:26:31Z theseb: oleo: wait..you said 2 things that seem to contradict......putting aside tail recursion for a bit ....which is easier for beginners and more "natural" then?
2014-04-12T17:26:40Z theseb: iteration or recursion?
2014-04-12T17:26:52Z oleo: recursion is, but that maybe just my feelings....your mileage vary...
2014-04-12T17:27:00Z oleo: i found recursion easier to get on with ....
2014-04-12T17:27:08Z theseb: tail recursion to me is just "optimization" which isn't so interesting (unless you are doing real work which i'm not :)
2014-04-12T17:27:35Z theseb: oleo: it isn't always obvious to me HOW to set up recursion to do what I want but with a for loop it is easy
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2014-04-12T17:28:06Z oleo: if you want to keep computations arbitrarily long...... you have to keep track of the stacks....
2014-04-12T17:28:47Z theseb: oleo: actually tail recursion is another argument in favor of iteration being easier
2014-04-12T17:29:16Z theseb: oleo: with iteration you don't ever worry about your "stack" limit being exceeded
2014-04-12T17:30:11Z oleo: yes i know....
2014-04-12T17:30:29Z oleo: on the other hand recursion feels more elegant...
2014-04-12T17:30:35Z oleo: dunno why....
2014-04-12T17:31:09Z c74d: It seems to me that recursion would be more natural when accumulating some value (e.g., a factorial), and iteration would be more natural for saying “do this repeatedly”.
2014-04-12T17:31:56Z theseb: oleo: ok...now THAT I must agree with.....yes...lisp and recursion is VERY elegant
2014-04-12T17:33:07Z c74d: I’ll generally prefer recursion in languages that prefer recursion, but I’ll generally use them like that ^^ in languages that don’t care (e.g., C++, with sufficient optimization).
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2014-04-12T17:34:54Z theseb: c74d: interesting...i was having a conversation in here about whether scheme or python is best for beginners
2014-04-12T17:35:18Z theseb: c74d: i find is VERY odd that it is 2014 and these questions still aren't answered.....we just don't know how to teach programming
2014-04-12T17:35:25Z theseb: s/is/it
2014-04-12T17:35:48Z theseb: there just isn't 100% agreement on what is "easiest"
2014-04-12T17:36:03Z c74d: Why would there be?
2014-04-12T17:36:37Z theseb: c74d: oh that's easy...in science you do experiements...the evidence settles the debate...then you move on....it is black and white
2014-04-12T17:36:37Z c74d: I would fully expect different people to find different programming languages easier.
2014-04-12T17:36:46Z theseb: c74d: but teaching involves psychology
2014-04-12T17:36:54Z theseb: c74d: so it isn't so black and white
2014-04-12T17:37:05Z theseb: c74d: right
2014-04-12T17:37:10Z theseb: c74d: and that is annoying :)
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2014-04-12T17:38:12Z theseb: c74d: i suppose the ideal then would be if you took some kind of psychology/personality test to see if your mind likes recursion or iteration best and then adjust beginner class accordingly
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2014-04-12T17:39:41Z c74d: Many people seem to consider Python the best and easiest and most sensible programming language ever, but just yesterday I tried to use it to split a comma-separated list string into an actual list, sort that, then re-join it into a comma-separated string, and was dismayed to find that while `someString.split(",")` is valid, there’s no corresponding `someList.join`.
2014-04-12T17:41:02Z oleo: erm
2014-04-12T17:41:10Z theseb: c74d: wow
2014-04-12T17:41:12Z oleo: join is a term for strings again.....i think....
2014-04-12T17:41:23Z oleo: that would not be called join anyway....
2014-04-12T17:41:34Z oleo: append and cons.....
2014-04-12T17:42:03Z c74d: (`join` is also called `concat` by some languages, but no, no `someList.concat` either.)
2014-04-12T17:42:04Z theseb: c74d: ",".join(sorted(my_string.split(",")))
2014-04-12T17:42:08Z theseb: c74d: there you go :)
2014-04-12T17:42:46Z theseb: c74d: oleo is right...join is a string method
2014-04-12T17:42:47Z c74d: Wha… that…
2014-04-12T17:43:19Z c74d: It’s called as a method of the separator!?
2014-04-12T17:44:01Z c74d: Maybe if `split` worked the same way, but…
2014-04-12T17:44:30Z theseb: but it does...split and join are sort of "opposites"
2014-04-12T17:45:24Z theseb: c74d: "c74d".join( ["1", "2", "4"] ) returns '1c74d2c74d4'
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2014-04-12T17:47:41Z c74d: I guess I could learn that easily if I wanted to, but I don’t see how it makes sense. One `join`s a list, one doesn’t `join` a string.
2014-04-12T17:48:30Z theseb: c74d: to be honest i thought join was an odd method when i first learned it
2014-04-12T17:48:43Z c74d: Hm, really?
2014-04-12T17:49:11Z theseb: c74d: but i guess it could have gone both ways....yea python could have had.. my_list.join(",") i guess
2014-04-12T17:50:06Z theseb: c74d: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/493819/python-join-why-is-it-string-joinlist-instead-of-list-joinstring
2014-04-12T17:50:06Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/7jucy9c
2014-04-12T17:50:54Z theseb: c74d: smart folks than me have discussed this in detail apparently
2014-04-12T17:50:59Z c74d: I have found it… inelegant, I guess, to have lists have string-specific methods, but it still makes more sense to me than Python’s way.
2014-04-12T17:51:15Z c74d dereferences the URL.
2014-04-12T17:55:30Z zacts: hello
2014-04-12T17:59:17Z offby1: nobody here but us zombie processes.
2014-04-12T17:59:28Z offby1: that's become a reflex by now.
2014-04-12T18:00:26Z oleo: i didn't use python often enough to tell.....
2014-04-12T18:01:13Z oleo: anyway this is #scheme
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2014-04-12T18:07:25Z zacts: so how can I use emacs in a script to indent scheme code?
2014-04-12T18:07:31Z offby1 twitches
2014-04-12T18:08:11Z offby1: zacts: I guess I'd write a little elisp that "visits" the named file, does mark-whole-buffer and then indent-region, saves the file, and then exist.
2014-04-12T18:08:14Z offby1: e x i t s.
2014-04-12T18:08:27Z offby1: zacts: just so you know, it's very unusual to use emacs in a "script".
2014-04-12T18:08:39Z zacts: offby1: that's because you don't use vim
2014-04-12T18:08:44Z offby1: emacs is very strongly biased towards interactive use, not scripted use
2014-04-12T18:09:21Z zacts: I'm working on improving evil-mode for my needs, it's not too far off, but I still like certain vim features like tabs
2014-04-12T18:09:37Z zacts: emacs has workgroups, unless the next release will implement them
2014-04-12T18:09:48Z zacts: but workgroups is a plugin I think
2014-04-12T18:10:26Z offby1: never heard of 'em
2014-04-12T18:10:48Z zacts: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/scmindent/
2014-04-12T18:10:59Z zacts: ^ unless I can verify that this indents exactly like emacs
2014-04-12T18:13:03Z zacts: offby1: anyway, I like vim, but want to contribute to a scheme project. guix.
2014-04-12T18:17:11Z offby1: don't see why you can't use vim with scheme.
2014-04-12T18:17:18Z offby1: I think Paul Graham uses vim for all his lisping
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2014-04-12T18:28:32Z leo2007: any idea how to compile mit-scheme from git checkout?
2014-04-12T18:31:27Z zacts: offby1: vim doesn't indent scheme the same way emacs does
2014-04-12T18:31:34Z zacts: I don't know how to fix that
2014-04-12T18:32:37Z Riastradh: leo2007, you need to have an existing installation of MIT Scheme.  Then:  cd src && ./Setup.sh && ./configure && make
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2014-04-12T23:33:11Z ProbonoBonobo: Hey #scheme.  I've been reading The Seasoned Schemer, and I'm interested in understanding continuations a little better.
2014-04-12T23:34:18Z ProbonoBonobo: Can someone describe the overlap between call-by-current-continuation and OOP?
2014-04-12T23:35:10Z ProbonoBonobo: They seem awfully similar, I'm wondering if continuation passing is just... OOP with lambdas?  Or is there more to it than that.
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2014-04-12T23:45:12Z ijp: I suppose you can think of a (cpsed) function call as sending a method along with a return address
2014-04-12T23:45:36Z ijp: (sending a message / calling a method)
2014-04-12T23:47:24Z ijp: but I don't really think of it as being a convincing analogy
2014-04-12T23:47:39Z ijp: maybe moreso in erlang than scheme
2014-04-12T23:47:49Z ProbonoBonobo: Can you define cpsed for me?
2014-04-12T23:47:55Z ProbonoBonobo: I've never heard that term
2014-04-12T23:48:12Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: cps-transformed
2014-04-12T23:48:41Z ijp: (define (double x) (* x x)) => (define (double/k k x) (* k x x))
2014-04-12T23:49:20Z ijp: meh, terrible example
2014-04-12T23:49:21Z ProbonoBonobo: Interesting.  Is that idiomatic scheme?
2014-04-12T23:49:47Z ProbonoBonobo: I haven't seen syntax like the second example
2014-04-12T23:50:31Z ijp: cpsing here just means converting to continuation passing style
2014-04-12T23:51:01Z ijp: obligatory factorial time
2014-04-12T23:51:27Z ProbonoBonobo: I see
2014-04-12T23:52:04Z ijp: rudybot: (define (factorial/k n k) (if (zero? n) (k 1) (factorial (- n 1) (lambda (x) (* n x)))))
2014-04-12T23:52:05Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-12T23:52:05Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-12T23:52:11Z ProbonoBonobo: Maybe I could give you an example of the code from The Seasoned Schemer so I can be sure we're talking about the same patterns
2014-04-12T23:52:15Z ijp: rudybot: (faktorial/k 10 (lambda (x) x))
2014-04-12T23:52:15Z rudybot: ijp: error: faktorial/k: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-04-12T23:52:19Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial/k 10 (lambda (x) x))
2014-04-12T23:52:19Z rudybot: ijp: error: factorial: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-04-12T23:52:28Z ijp: of course, silly me
2014-04-12T23:52:33Z ijp: rudybot: (define (factorial/k n k) (if (zero? n) (k 1) (factorial/k (- n 1) (lambda (x) (* n x)))))
2014-04-12T23:52:33Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-12T23:52:36Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial/k 10 (lambda (x) x))
2014-04-12T23:52:36Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 1
2014-04-12T23:52:42Z ijp: I'm an idiot
2014-04-12T23:54:41Z ProbonoBonobo: So TSS uses cps with lambdas, although, they really don't confine themselves to writing idiomatic Scheme
2014-04-12T23:54:57Z ijp: rudybot: (define (factorial/k n k) (if (zero? n) (k 1) (factorial/k (- n 1) (lambda (x) (* n (k x))))))
2014-04-12T23:54:58Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-12T23:54:58Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm curious if this accomplishes the same thing:
2014-04-12T23:55:08Z ijp: rudybot: (factorial/k 10 (lambda (x) x))
2014-04-12T23:55:08Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 3628800
2014-04-12T23:55:13Z ijp: there we go
2014-04-12T23:55:32Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: writing in cps is not idiomatic
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2014-04-12T23:57:22Z ProbonoBonobo: rudybot: (define intersectall (lambda (lset) (call-with-current-continuation lambda (hop) (letrec ((A (lambda (lset) (cond ((null? (car lset)) (hop (quote ()))) ((null? (cdr lset)) (car lset)) (else (intersect (car lset) (A (cdr lset)))))))) (cond ((null? lset) (quote ())) (else (A lset))))))))
2014-04-12T23:57:22Z rudybot: ProbonoBonobo: Hmm. I looked at srfi/1 just now, but I don't see how the lset functions can be parameterized over equivalence. It seems like they use whatever definition of eq? is available in the environment of srfi/1. Also, srfi/1 warns that they run in O(n*m). If your set elements can be ordered, then you can implement intersection, et etc. in (n log n + m log m + n + m).
2014-04-12T23:58:25Z ProbonoBonobo: Whoa.  I wish the error messages emacs gave me were half as informative as rudybot's
2014-04-12T23:58:41Z ijp: informative is not quite the phrase I would use
2014-04-12T23:59:16Z ijp: rudybot: no more non-sequiturs, kthxbai
2014-04-12T23:59:16Z rudybot: ijp: if you read #emacs backwards it's about rudybot telling people non-sequiturs and steering conversation into the subject of his choosing.
2014-04-12T23:59:28Z ijp: sounds about right
2014-04-12T23:59:49Z ProbonoBonobo: bahaha
2014-04-13T00:01:01Z ProbonoBonobo: my impression was that cps is integral to the scheme interpreter itself, is that not correct?
2014-04-13T00:01:13Z ijp: that's one way to implement call/cc
2014-04-13T00:02:07Z ijp: some would say it's a good intermediate language for compilers -- Appel wrote a book about it
2014-04-13T00:03:25Z ProbonoBonobo: oh... OHH... i'm starting to see what you're doing there, in your previous example
2014-04-13T00:03:45Z ProbonoBonobo: this eliminates the need for an accumulate function in conjunction with the recursion then
2014-04-13T00:03:46Z ProbonoBonobo: ?
2014-04-13T00:04:47Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: if you write the usual recursive definition of factorial, you end up with a chain of multiplications to be done
2014-04-13T00:05:57Z ijp: (factorial 3) => (* 3 (factorial 2)) => (* 3 (* 2 (factorial 1))) => (* 3 (* 2 (* 1 (factorial 0)))) => (* 3 (* 2 (* 1 1)))
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2014-04-13T00:06:15Z ijp: it's "implicit" in the way you've written the program
2014-04-13T00:06:44Z ijp: but with cps, it's explicit, in the continuation argument you are passing to the function
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2014-04-13T00:08:46Z ijp: (factorial 3 (lambda (x) x)) => (factorial 2 (lambda (x) (* 3 ((lambda (x) x) x)))) => (factorial 1 (lambda (x) (* 2 ((lambda (x) (* 3 ((lambda (x) x) x))) x)))) => (factorial 0 (lambda (x) (* 1 ((lambda (x) (* 2 ((lambda (x) (* 3 ((lambda (x) x) x))) x))) x))))
2014-04-13T00:09:26Z ijp: of course, it looks hideous and different, but if you beta reduce
2014-04-13T00:10:04Z ijp: (factorial 3 (lambda (x) x)) => (factorial 2 (lambda (x) (* 3 x))) => (factorial 1 (lambda (x) (* 2 (* 3 x)))) => (factorial 0 (lambda (x) (* 1 (* 2 (* 3 x)))))
2014-04-13T00:11:07Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: it's similar to the difference you learned when e.g. turning a sum-list function from recursive, to tail-recursive with an accumulator
2014-04-13T00:11:43Z ProbonoBonobo: i can see what you mean, yeah
2014-04-13T00:12:09Z ijp: (sum-list/accum '(1 2 3) 0) => (sum-list/accum '(2 3) (+ 1 0)) => (sum-list/accum '(3) (+ 2 1 0)) => (sum-list/accum 0 (+ 3 2 1 0))
2014-04-13T00:12:26Z ProbonoBonobo: part of my reason for asking is, i'm working on a class project right now
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2014-04-13T00:13:01Z ProbonoBonobo: where we're given a class constructor, which accepts methods for objects
2014-04-13T00:13:59Z ProbonoBonobo: such that, e.g. (ask ijp 'go 'north) would pass that message to the instance of person called ijp, who has a (method go) defined somewhere in his class
2014-04-13T00:15:24Z ProbonoBonobo: and it sounds syntactically like the way that TLS is using cps, because i haven't seen elsewhere the arguments take such... (quote literal) values ;)
2014-04-13T00:16:30Z ProbonoBonobo: would passing a message to the class person, and invoking that message directly on an instance qualify as a 'current continuation'?
2014-04-13T00:17:00Z ProbonoBonobo: these are new terms for me, so i'm just trying to make sure that i have the basics right
2014-04-13T00:17:02Z ijp: I wouldn't say so
2014-04-13T00:19:34Z ijp: the current continuation is everything you still have to do
2014-04-13T00:19:58Z ijp: it's what most programmers mean when they talk about "the stack"
2014-04-13T00:20:30Z ProbonoBonobo: right, and if the message is delivered to my instance of person, ijp, one would think
2014-04-13T00:20:55Z ProbonoBonobo: that i wouldn't want to keep recursing through the rest of the people, at least as it's currently defined
2014-04-13T00:20:59Z ijp: it doesn't cover "what you are doing right now"
2014-04-13T00:25:43Z ProbonoBonobo: and am i right to suspect that in the absence of continuation passing, it would keep searching through the instances?  reason being that it can't simply abort the process once the message is delivered, in the event that the method is defined only for the parent
2014-04-13T00:26:09Z ijp: so you are using a loop function that goes through the whole list?
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2014-04-13T00:26:54Z ijp: right, so if you were wanting to terminate it early, you can use call/cc to do that
2014-04-13T00:28:29Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: when you use call/cc what it is doing is giving you access to a (not quite a) function that represents the rest of the program at the point where the call/cc form is
2014-04-13T00:29:04Z ijp: so you can call this (not quite a) function, and it jumps from wherever you were, to the point where you used call/cc
2014-04-13T00:29:25Z ProbonoBonobo: gotcha.  well, i'm still trying to understand the code that's been given to us
2014-04-13T00:29:48Z ijp: to give a totally nonsense example
2014-04-13T00:30:08Z ProbonoBonobo: trying to understand if it makes use of continuations or if not, because i gather there's a lot of syntactic variation
2014-04-13T00:30:22Z ijp: rudybot: (call/cc (lambda (break) (for-each (lambda (x) (when (> x 5) (break x))) (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))))
2014-04-13T00:30:22Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 6
2014-04-13T00:30:57Z ProbonoBonobo: you asked if it uses a loop function that goes through the whole list.  the ask function is defined such that if the instance is the object that it's looking for
2014-04-13T00:31:42Z ProbonoBonobo: it lets method be the object function applied to message, and if the method is a method, then it applies it
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2014-04-13T00:35:19Z ProbonoBonobo: the part which suggests the cps behavior to me is (let ((method (object message))), because when you say cps involves a "not quite a function"
2014-04-13T00:35:38Z ProbonoBonobo: this sounds very much like an object that is a function which takes a message as an argument
2014-04-13T00:36:25Z ijp: ah, I see
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2014-04-13T00:38:47Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: the reason I keep stressing "not quite a function" is because a continuation does not return in a conventional sense
2014-04-13T00:39:25Z ijp: it "returns" to where it was created, rather than where it was invoked
2014-04-13T00:42:04Z ijp: taking a message as an argument and returning the method is not the usual way of thinking of objects, but it's not too strange
2014-04-13T00:42:12Z ijp: python works that way
2014-04-13T00:43:25Z ProbonoBonobo: haha.  i think you've hit the nail on the head, that sounds exactly like the framework we're dealing with
2014-04-13T00:44:00Z ijp: but if you've worked through the little schemer, you've probably seen this behaviour before
2014-04-13T00:44:03Z ProbonoBonobo: this class is a scheme-based alternative to a lecture which is taught in python, so a lot of the exercises are... pythonic
2014-04-13T00:44:23Z ijp: it's just one of the two kinds of higher order function
2014-04-13T00:45:31Z ProbonoBonobo: are you referring to the last chapter of the little schemer?
2014-04-13T00:45:53Z ijp: I think so, I'd need to grab my copy
2014-04-13T00:46:20Z ProbonoBonobo: where definitions take a non-primitive argument, and add this to a table?
2014-04-13T00:47:56Z ijp: something like atom-to-action
2014-04-13T00:49:02Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm glad you bring it up, because I've been curious
2014-04-13T00:49:25Z ProbonoBonobo: the forms in that function, like *const *identifier
2014-04-13T00:49:40Z ProbonoBonobo: are these scheme primitives?  and if so, are they universal?
2014-04-13T00:50:02Z ijp: they get defined a few pages later
2014-04-13T00:52:49Z ijp: practical scheme systems are not going to be quite as simple as that of the little/seasoned schemer
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2014-04-13T00:59:19Z ProbonoBonobo: heh. I'm beginning to appreciate the truth of what you're saying, now that we're modeling complex interactions in a world
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2014-04-13T02:58:34Z leo2007: Riastradh: thanks. On OSX mavericks, ./Setup.sh never finishes. I see mit-scheme-c in the process list consuming %0 CPU.
2014-04-13T02:58:45Z Riastradh: Blarf.
2014-04-13T02:58:51Z leo2007: ?
2014-04-13T02:59:00Z Riastradh: General noise of disgust.
2014-04-13T02:59:16Z Riastradh: How come you're using mit-scheme-c?
2014-04-13T02:59:30Z leo2007: I have one installed from homebrew
2014-04-13T02:59:35Z leo2007: 9.1.1 I think
2014-04-13T02:59:45Z Riastradh: How come homebrew distributes mit-scheme-c?
2014-04-13T03:00:03Z leo2007: is it a mistake?
2014-04-13T03:00:23Z Riastradh: Why not mit-scheme-x86-64?
2014-04-13T03:00:30Z Riastradh: (or amd64, or x86_64, or whatever we called it)
2014-04-13T03:01:07Z Riastradh: This might not be a bug in the C back end -- it could be a bug in MIT Scheme on Mac OS X.
2014-04-13T03:01:21Z Riastradh: But there's no reason to use the C back end on Mac OS X.
2014-04-13T03:01:49Z leo2007: there is also mit-scheme. Let me remove mit-scheme-c from PATH can retry.
2014-04-13T03:02:03Z Riastradh: Nah, that'll be a symlink to mit-scheme-c.
2014-04-13T03:02:11Z Riastradh: ...or whatever the real executable is.
2014-04-13T03:03:41Z leo2007: my mit-scheme is compiled long ago so maybe it has been changed in homebrew let me do a reinstall. Thanks for the info.
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2014-04-13T06:57:29Z leo2007: it took me 51 minutes to compile mit-scheme. Is it that normal?
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2014-04-13T06:59:57Z nisstyre: leo2007: depends on your computer and settings
2014-04-13T07:00:18Z nisstyre: if you have a lot of memory and a fast cpu it could be quicker maybe
2014-04-13T07:00:45Z leo2007: macbook with core duo 2G + 8G RAM
2014-04-13T07:01:11Z nisstyre: I don't know, I have something comparable but I haven't built it before :p
2014-04-13T07:01:33Z nisstyre: it took me like 15-20 minutes to build HHVM though (Facebook's PHP jit) which is a huge C++ project
2014-04-13T07:01:42Z nisstyre: so it sounds like something might be wrong
2014-04-13T07:02:49Z leo2007: i see.
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2014-04-13T08:25:35Z francogrex: hi, I am pretty sure this task here could also be done in scheme, but I am not skilled enough in scheme to do it. if anyone knows how, please consider contributing a codeor suggest one to me and I'll post it there? it's on the rosetta code website: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Machine_code
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2014-04-13T08:42:19Z adu: what task?
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2014-04-13T08:44:03Z adu: francogrex: executing binary instructions like that requires being compiler-specific, which is difficult because there are thousands of implementations of scheme
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2014-04-13T08:55:42Z francogrex: adu: ok but at least one implementation doing it would be acceptable. It's even better if it's a good implementation that is known and used by many
2014-04-13T08:56:36Z adu: francogrex: that's the thing, there are 12 implementations that are used by many
2014-04-13T08:57:48Z adu: francogrex: and most schemers write in scheme in part for the mathematical purity of it, and executing binary instructions is not very mathematically pure
2014-04-13T08:59:00Z adu: francogrex: the way a schemer would write that code would be "+"
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2014-04-13T12:30:17Z leo2007: Riastradh: what do you use for writing scheme? edwin?
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2014-04-13T13:33:49Z names: ccl-logbot Guest51028 tali713 w0rm vraid davexunit antoszka cbsw rszeno oleo c74d tenq|out ctindall bjz_ frkout leo2007 yacks marcux effy_ SirDayBat haroldwu aking z0d aoh emma jrslepak finnrobi cross fadein REPLeffect kilimanjaro_ dan64 ecraven mmc cibs b4283 wingo jewel dpk guampa gravicappa alezost cjh` yosafbridge slowpoke eMBee karswell Kabaka_ aeth Khisanth duncanm ohama gluegadget ggherdov ozzloy mornfall stamourv`` zephyrfalcon gnomon sveit josso
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2014-04-13T13:41:22Z leo2007: ecraven: hi
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2014-04-13T13:42:01Z leo2007: I am using your patched version of mit-scheme-swank. Do you have any plan to update it?
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2014-04-13T14:30:32Z ecraven: leo2007: does it not work?
2014-04-13T14:30:48Z ecraven: leo2007: I haven't had much time to work on it recently :-/
2014-04-13T14:31:17Z ecraven: but I'll gladly try to fix any bugs you encounter, just submit a bug report or tell me here
2014-04-13T14:31:50Z leo2007: quitting from the sldb is quite problematic and I don't know what is wrong.
2014-04-13T14:32:24Z ecraven: could you submit a bug report on how to reproduce this? that would be most helpful
2014-04-13T14:33:06Z leo2007: ecraven: I'll do that.
2014-04-13T14:33:43Z ecraven: I've done some rather ugly refactoring to get input and output redirection working :-/ that might well have broken something in sldb
2014-04-13T14:34:48Z leo2007: basically I just type any undefined variables in slime-repl and when the sldb window pops up, hitting q
2014-04-13T14:35:35Z leo2007: now slime has one pending continuations; eval (slime-rex-continuations) shows something about wrong number of args.
2014-04-13T14:37:09Z leo2007: (define (swank:sldb-continue socket . args) socket args (continue (sldb-state.restarts *sldb-state*)))
2014-04-13T14:37:27Z leo2007: In the above what does the second appearance of socket and args do?
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2014-04-13T14:37:43Z DrDuck: Hi guys. Is anyone familiar with mit-scheme Test Manager? http://web.mit.edu/~axch/www/test_manager.html
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2014-04-13T14:44:58Z DrDuck: Nevermind found the problem. :D
2014-04-13T14:46:28Z Riastradh: leo2007, I use Edwin and GNU Emacs.
2014-04-13T14:47:35Z ecraven: ah, ok, I normally just use 0, q probably uses some other command. I'll look into it in the next days!
2014-04-13T14:47:37Z leo2007: Riastradh: I was very excited discovering your slime48 but sadly failed to compile scheme48 1.3
2014-04-13T14:47:52Z ecraven: leo2007: the second mention just keeps the compiler from warning you that they are unused
2014-04-13T14:48:09Z ecraven: DrDuck: I have used it a few times, liked it
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2014-04-13T14:52:50Z DrDuck: ecraven: I'm trying to learn to use it for chapter 2 of sicp. I'm new to unit-testing in general, but it looks simple enough so far I think. My issue earlier was on my behalf - mismatched paren haha.
2014-04-13T14:53:12Z ecraven: DrDuck: use a better editor, that shows mismatched parens :) personally, I'd suggest emacs + slime
2014-04-13T14:54:02Z DrDuck: :)
2014-04-13T14:54:12Z ecraven: paredit-mode really is a blessing!
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2014-04-13T14:54:57Z DrDuck: Noted!
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2014-04-13T15:33:56Z DrDuck: I thought Riastradh was a bot all this time. O_O
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2014-04-13T15:49:22Z gp5st: hello. I'm running through sicp and hence using scheme/racket for the moment. In (define dbl (lambda (x) (* x x))) why isn't the first x, the formal param of the lambda, executed as a function?  Is this just a special exception to the rule or is there some other rules I'm not aware of?  I guess I would have expected it to be (define dbl (lambda '(x) (* x x))) with the params as a quoted list
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2014-04-13T16:00:18Z DrDuck: I'm doing sicp, too. I might not be as far as you -- early chapter 2. I'm afraid I don't think I understand what you're asking, though. :(
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2014-04-13T16:01:10Z DrDuck: The value of dbl is a procedure that returns the square of a number. It can be called just as (define (dbl x) (* x x)) can.
2014-04-13T16:03:19Z gp5st: DrDuck: that's essentially shorthand for (define dbl (lambda (x) (* x x))) from what I understand
2014-04-13T16:03:44Z gp5st: i've also been watching the abelson and ussman lectures from MIT's OCW.  It's pretty nice too:)
2014-04-13T16:04:07Z gp5st: also ashamed that there were more girls in that lecture than there were in my CS courses when I was in college not too long ago
2014-04-13T16:05:20Z DrDuck: Yep, they are nice. Where are you in exercises?
2014-04-13T16:08:05Z vraid: gp5st: the (x) after lambda isn't a function call, it's a list of parameters
2014-04-13T16:08:33Z gp5st: DrDuck: I'm just starting ch3
2014-04-13T16:09:02Z gp5st: vraid: but I thought the rule was the first thing in a list in a program is the name of the procedure being called
2014-04-13T16:09:25Z gp5st: like if I can't do (+ 5 (5 5) 5)
2014-04-13T16:11:06Z vraid: not in all cases
2014-04-13T16:11:46Z gp5st: is the param list implicitly quoted I guess is my question
2014-04-13T16:15:41Z fizzie: "lambda" is a special form, not a function, could be one answer. As for other similar cases, see e.g. (let ((x 42) (y 123)) ...).
2014-04-13T16:15:41Z vraid: gp5st: lambdas are an essential part of the syntax, so the list is part of the lambda syntax, not the syntax for function calls
2014-04-13T16:16:07Z gp5st: gotchya
2014-04-13T16:16:17Z gp5st: fizzie: yeah, same question applies to let:-p
2014-04-13T16:16:30Z gp5st: so it's just the syntax of the language
2014-04-13T16:16:56Z vraid: all the syntax is made up of lists, hence all function calls are also lists
2014-04-13T16:17:08Z vraid: but not all lists in the syntax are function calls
2014-04-13T16:18:00Z fizzie: gp5st: Or, for that matter, (quote (a)) itself.
2014-04-13T16:18:03Z pjdelport: gp5st: there's a general separation between so-called special forms and normal functions calls
2014-04-13T16:19:03Z pjdelport: the former is really the syntax of Scheme: it includes things like lambda and control structures, as well as e.g. syntactical macros you can define yourself
2014-04-13T16:21:00Z gp5st: gotchya
2014-04-13T16:22:20Z pjdelport: gp5st: The simplest way to view the difference is just that a function call is anything that evaluates "normally", and a special form is anything that quotes, delays, or otherways has special rules for how its arguments are evaluated.
2014-04-13T16:23:28Z pjdelport: so you know something like (if foo (bar ...) (baz ...)) must be a special form, because it doesn't evaluate both branches like a normal function would; only one of them
2014-04-13T16:23:55Z gp5st: that makes sense
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2014-04-13T16:24:47Z gp5st: I hadn't thought about that, re: if and cond ... it just seemed to be the way it should work and hence I didn't think about it
2014-04-13T16:28:51Z gp5st: thank you pjdelport, fizzie, vraid :)
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2014-04-13T17:05:29Z DrDuck: gp5st: Another good community, if you're working on SICP, is #symbo1ics. Just wanted to throw it out there.
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2014-04-13T17:58:26Z DrDuck: Can the parameter to a procedure  be given before the procedure executes? This bit of code from sicp section 2.1.3 is odd to me. https://www.refheap.com/75767
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2014-04-13T17:59:42Z DrDuck: car and cdr are taken as parameters to dispatch within cons, but you cant do something like ((cons x y) car) where car is the parameter for dispatch.
2014-04-13T17:59:52Z DrDuck: It's gotta be (car (cons x y)).
2014-04-13T17:59:54Z DrDuck: Same with cdr.
2014-04-13T18:01:45Z fizzie: DrDuck: No, it just defines car and cdr as functions that call the function returned by cons with either 0 or 1; it's used as (car (cons x y)) as usual. (Goes via (car (cons x y)) -> ((cons x y) 0) -> x.)
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2014-04-13T18:02:36Z DrDuck: Alright.
2014-04-13T18:03:59Z DrDuck: I wonder if the book will eventually reveal what the actual definitions for cons, car, and cdr are.
2014-04-13T18:04:07Z DrDuck: That'll be interesting.
2014-04-13T18:04:46Z fizzie: Though (define (cons x y) (lambda (f) (f x y))) is another perfectly valid implementation of pairs, and I think I've seen that somewhere with (define (car x y) x) and (define (car x y) y) in which case you'd indeed have a nonstandard interface used like ((cons x y) car).
2014-04-13T18:05:08Z DrDuck: :O
2014-04-13T18:05:45Z DrDuck: Nice. :D
2014-04-13T18:05:55Z fizzie: But you can simply (define (car z) (z (lambda (x y) x))) etc. to get the regular sort of (car (cons x y)) => x, of course.
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2014-04-13T18:25:43Z Rptx: Hi everybody. I am trying to learn scheme, And have a doubt. If I want to compare the a procedure to two
2014-04-13T18:26:23Z Rptx: possible results, must I run it twice? I want something like is (procedure) = 1 or 5 do this..
2014-04-13T18:26:40Z Rptx: if*
2014-04-13T18:27:55Z DrDuck: Rptx: "Conditionals" are what you're looking for. :)
2014-04-13T18:28:08Z vraid: Rptx: look up the 'case' statement http://web.mit.edu/scheme_v9.0.1/doc/mit-scheme-ref/Conditionals.html
2014-04-13T18:28:15Z DrDuck: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Scheme_Programming/Conditionals
2014-04-13T18:28:19Z DrDuck: o.o
2014-04-13T18:31:03Z Rptx: I was actually reading the reference manual, searching for a way to do it with if, base I will try with 'case' thanks!
2014-04-13T18:31:41Z Rptx: donno where that 'base' came from, sorry.
2014-04-13T18:31:49Z vraid: Rptx: you can do it with if too, but i'd recommend you bind the result of procedure to a variable
2014-04-13T18:32:37Z vraid: as in (let ((x (procedure))) (if (eq? x 1) ... (if (eq? x 5) ..
2014-04-13T18:33:21Z Rptx: I was thinking of how to do that in scheme, actually, the only way I know how to do it now
2014-04-13T18:33:51Z Rptx: is to call the procedure again, with the new value.
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2014-04-13T18:34:08Z Rptx: as in procedure (+ x 1) or something like that
2014-04-13T18:34:50Z Rptx: I'm still, in chapter 1, of SICP
2014-04-13T18:35:04Z pjb: (eq? x 1) may always be false.
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2014-04-13T19:14:39Z Rptx: Sorry to bother you again, in the manual it says in 'case' that 'no object will be evaluated'
2014-04-13T19:14:49Z Rptx: does this mean, I can't even use a variable as an object?
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2014-04-13T19:18:37Z vraid: Rptx: you can use variables, but not function evaluations
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2014-04-13T19:20:15Z vraid: e.g (case (+ 1) ( (1) #t)) will be true, because (+ 1) evaluates to 1, which matches 1
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2014-04-13T19:21:10Z Rptx: yes, I get that, but (case + 1) ((+ 0 1) will not match according to what I'm reading
2014-04-13T19:21:21Z vraid: but (case 1 ( ((+ 1)) #t)) will not have a value, because 1 does not match the expression (+ 1)
2014-04-13T19:21:43Z vraid: yep, that's it
2014-04-13T19:22:12Z vraid: hrm, wait
2014-04-13T19:22:28Z vraid: i think you're missing some parentheses there
2014-04-13T19:22:55Z Rptx: I did it just to show you my point, didn't write actual code, sorry
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2014-04-13T19:26:08Z vraid: mhm
2014-04-13T19:26:23Z vraid: (+ 1) as key does not match (+ 1) as an object
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2014-04-13T19:27:17Z Rptx: well, gona use (define x (my procedure), and compare everything to 'x', and see if that works
2014-04-13T19:27:31Z Rptx: gonna*
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2014-04-13T19:31:09Z vraid: Rptx: careful though, functions will only be equal if they share the same declaration
2014-04-13T19:31:54Z vraid: if you do (define a (lambda () #f)),    (define b (lambda () #f))
2014-04-13T19:31:57Z vraid: a and b are not equal
2014-04-13T19:33:10Z Rptx: vraid: My procedure returns a number, so 'rem' should be equal to that number, and then I'll compare it
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2014-04-13T19:33:49Z Rptx: vraid: (define x (+ 2 2)),   (= x (* 2 2))
2014-04-13T19:34:00Z Rptx: something like that
2014-04-13T19:34:14Z vraid: ah, sure, that will do it
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2014-04-13T19:57:48Z Rptx: vraid: Thanks, It is finally working know. I'm trying to do ex-1.28 the Miller-Rabin test of primality, I haven't done it yet.
2014-04-13T19:58:33Z Rptx: But just to make sure I get the test, I used exponentiation to do it. It is verry slow though. Now gonna work to get it write using the 'expmod'.
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2014-04-13T20:19:55Z ecraven: Riastradh: there hasn't been any work on getting colour support into Edwin, right?
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2014-04-13T20:22:33Z theseb: Scheme doesn't really need a print statement like C and Python because strings are already evaluated to strings right?
2014-04-13T20:22:35Z theseb: so a string by itself *is* a "print statement" yes?
2014-04-13T20:22:50Z offby1: er, no.
2014-04-13T20:23:02Z offby1: theseb: you're confusing the language with the repl.
2014-04-13T20:23:08Z offby1: strings are just strings, like in most other languages.
2014-04-13T20:23:12Z offby1: nothing at all special about them.
2014-04-13T20:23:30Z offby1: a "print statement" is a procedure, which when you run it, sends bytes to some channel.
2014-04-13T20:23:35Z offby1: strings aren't anything like that.
2014-04-13T20:23:52Z offby1: they are the _source_ of many of the bytes that people choose to send to channels with print statements.
2014-04-13T20:23:55Z offby1: but that's the only connection.
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2014-04-13T20:24:06Z theseb: offby1: sure but unlike other languages the scheme repl can process raw strings w/o any extra "commands" yes?
2014-04-13T20:24:11Z offby1: no.
2014-04-13T20:24:26Z offby1: theseb: python and ruby, for example, have repls that are essentially the same as scheme's.
2014-04-13T20:24:43Z offby1: (ruby's is called, strangely, "irb", not "ruby", but whatever.)
2014-04-13T20:25:08Z offby1: theseb: do you know the etymology of the word "repl"?
2014-04-13T20:25:13Z offby1: It's an acronym.
2014-04-13T20:25:14Z theseb: offby1: I just put "hello" in test.py and ran it w/ the python interpreter ..nothing happened
2014-04-13T20:25:19Z offby1: It stands for Read Eval Print Loop.
2014-04-13T20:25:20Z offby1: ponder that.
2014-04-13T20:25:27Z offby1: theseb: correct.
2014-04-13T20:26:00Z offby1: theseb: it's also correct that _some_ schemes will display the result of the last expression that they evaluate in a file, which is probably what you've seen (and this has, I confess, nothing to do with the repl).
2014-04-13T20:26:03Z offby1: But that's a detail.
2014-04-13T20:26:09Z offby1: a mostly-irrelevant detail.
2014-04-13T20:26:31Z ijp: theseb: if you put "hello" in test.scm and run it, a lot of implementations won't print it either
2014-04-13T20:26:49Z theseb: ijp: i just tried w/ guile you are are right :)
2014-04-13T20:27:20Z offby1 high-fives ijp
2014-04-13T20:27:22Z theseb: wait....doesn't the Print in REPL mean scheme must print the results of the EVALs?
2014-04-13T20:27:28Z offby1: eys.
2014-04-13T20:27:29Z offby1: yes
2014-04-13T20:27:50Z theseb: so then guile SHOULD print "hello"!?!?!?!? i'm confused
2014-04-13T20:27:58Z theseb: bad guile...bad interpreter...no
2014-04-13T20:28:06Z ijp: er no
2014-04-13T20:28:22Z ecraven: theseb: running guile is not the same as guile's REPL
2014-04-13T20:28:28Z offby1 high-fives ecraven
2014-04-13T20:28:39Z ijp: guile < test.scm if you insist on doing things the wrong way
2014-04-13T20:29:19Z theseb: ecraven: its NOT? oh hell i got some learnin to do :)
2014-04-13T20:29:27Z offby1: yep
2014-04-13T20:29:36Z offby1: that's why you're taking CS101 or whatever it is.
2014-04-13T20:29:50Z offby1: also, Lucy got some 'splainin' to do.
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2014-04-13T20:30:19Z ecraven: theseb: the L in repl means it's a loop, so it's that thing where you can interactively type "commands". that is distinct from running the guile executable with a "script" file, which it executes ("evaluates") and then exits
2014-04-13T20:33:13Z theseb: ecraven: just wow...mind blown
2014-04-13T20:33:54Z theseb: guile should have a switch like "guile --run-print test.scm"
2014-04-13T20:34:11Z theseb: or guile --repl test.scm
2014-04-13T20:34:15Z theseb: that would rock
2014-04-13T20:34:16Z ijp: which is longer than the way I already told you how to do it
2014-04-13T20:35:18Z offby1: theseb: I wouldn't be surprised if guile had some switch to make it print out intermediate evaluations as it runs your script.
2014-04-13T20:35:25Z theseb: ijp: yes your way works...just tested it
2014-04-13T20:35:28Z offby1: or, at least, it probably has a decent interactive debugger that will do that
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2014-04-13T20:51:51Z Riastradh: ecraven, no, sorry...  I started to merge it a year or two ago, but never finished the job.
2014-04-13T20:52:05Z Riastradh: ecraven, there was some problem with resource allocation which required some more time to fix than I had.
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2014-04-13T21:12:28Z Riastradh: ecraven, I left it at <http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/edwin-colour-20140413.patch>.  I believe what I intended was to cache GCs, rather than creating two GCs for every character cell.
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2014-04-13T21:14:48Z Riastradh: I intended to manage GC allocation and caching in Scheme, which requires some changes to the X11 primitive API.
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2014-04-13T21:19:47Z Riastradh: ecraven, if you want to take a shot at it, here's a rough sketch for what you need to do:
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2014-04-13T21:20:33Z Riastradh: 1. Add primitives X-CREATE-GC and X-FREE-GC, if not also X-COPY-GC, X-CHANGE-GC, &c.
2014-04-13T21:21:06Z Riastradh: 2. Add Scheme code to manage these with a gcfinalizer (that is, to manage GC `graphics contexts' with a GC `garbage collector' finalizer).
2014-04-13T21:22:32Z Riastradh: 3. Add Scheme code to cache GCs based on their values, so that calling a Scheme procedure X-CREATE-GC with the same display, window, and parameters will yield the same GC.
2014-04-13T21:27:50Z Riastradh: 4. Change all the xterm primitives -- XTERM-WRITE-CHAR-COLOR!, &c. -- to take GCs instead of colours (perhaps rename to XTERM-WRITE-CHAR-GC!), and adapt edwin/xterm.scm to represent cache GCs in faces instead of using just a pair of 24-bit colours as the representation of a face.
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2014-04-13T21:29:58Z Riastradh: The term `face' should probably be replaced, too.  It is not a type face at all.
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2014-04-13T21:52:10Z ecraven: Riastradh: I'll see if I find some time.. at the moment, this is certainly the one thing that most keeps me from using Edwin more :-/
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2014-04-14T16:00:26Z DrDuck: For exercise 2.6 of SICP I have no earthly idea of what is going on when I try to write out the evaluation of (add-1 zero), on paper, using the applicative order substitution model.
2014-04-14T16:01:29Z DrDuck: Completely loss as to what lambda function applies where. Too many lambdas and not enough parameters!
2014-04-14T16:01:32Z pjb: You should substitute by zero all occurence of the parameter name in the expression.
2014-04-14T16:02:03Z pjb: DrDuck: but right, one can get lost at it.  Just write a lambda-calculus evaluator, and let the computer do this kind of exercises for you ;-)
2014-04-14T16:02:46Z DrDuck: I'm pretty sure writing a lambda-calculus evaluator is not part of this exercise heh. :P
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2014-04-14T16:02:58Z DrDuck: Not to mention that I would have no idea how to do that, either.
2014-04-14T16:04:21Z DrDuck: I think I'll write out my progress of writing how I believe it's evaluated with applicative-order and paste it to a code paste. Maybe someone can give me an idea of what comes next after.
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2014-04-14T16:06:44Z pjb: As I said, just substitute: (subst '(lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) 'f '(lambda (x) (f ((n f) x))))  --> (lambda (x) ((lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) ((n (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x))) x)))
2014-04-14T16:08:06Z pjb: Oops, the parameter is n, not f, sorry.
2014-04-14T16:08:15Z DrDuck: Just one sec.
2014-04-14T16:08:24Z DrDuck: I'll write out what I have and my understanding.
2014-04-14T16:08:25Z pjb: (subst '(lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) 'n '(lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f ((n f) x))))) --> (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f (((lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) f) x))))
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2014-04-14T16:13:40Z DrDuck: This is my progress, and I'm completely stuck after, because there are no more parameters to progress the lambda procedures any further: https://www.refheap.com/75920
2014-04-14T16:14:40Z pjb: Nope. You made the same mistake as I did.  (define (add-1 n) …) actually means: (define add-1 (lambda (n) …)
2014-04-14T16:15:15Z pjb: So it should be ((lambda (n) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f ((n f) x))))) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)))
2014-04-14T16:16:46Z DrDuck: and there's only one parameter, (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)), so it's used to substitute n. Right?
2014-04-14T16:17:13Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-14T16:17:23Z DrDuck: Right. I did that.
2014-04-14T16:17:36Z pjb: You should get (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f (((lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) f) x))))
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2014-04-14T16:18:23Z pjb: Now, notice that (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) always return (lambda (x) x), so ((lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) f) can be replaced by (lambda (x) x).
2014-04-14T16:18:40Z pjb: you should get (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f ((lambda (x) x) x))))
2014-04-14T16:18:52Z pjb: ((lambda (x) x) x) reduces to x
2014-04-14T16:19:04Z pjb: you should get (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x)))
2014-04-14T16:19:17Z pjb: (lambda (x) (f x)) = f
2014-04-14T16:20:08Z pjb: you should get (lambda (f) f)
2014-04-14T16:20:26Z pjb: And this is the representation of one.
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2014-04-14T16:23:07Z DrDuck: What the hell.
2014-04-14T16:24:49Z pjb: You may want to keep the expanded form (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) since it shows more clearly that f is a unary function (but in lambda calculus, all the values are unary functions!).
2014-04-14T16:25:13Z pjb: (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) is a function that takes a function f and applies it once on an argument x.
2014-04-14T16:25:31Z pjb: (lambda (f) (lambda (x) x)) is a function that takes a function f and applies it zero times on an argument x.
2014-04-14T16:26:04Z pjb: (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f (f x)))) is a function that takes a function f and applies it two times on an argument x.  You could find it evaluating (add1 (add1 zero)).
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2014-04-14T16:36:32Z DrDuck: pjb: Ok I understood some of what you said and made some progress I think. I'm still not completely there yet, though. Let me show you.
2014-04-14T16:37:09Z DrDuck: https://www.refheap.com/75920
2014-04-14T16:37:19Z DrDuck: Now I'm not sure about what comes next.
2014-04-14T16:37:35Z DrDuck: I understand what you said above about: "(lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) is a function that takes a function f and applies it once on an argument x. "
2014-04-14T16:37:42Z DrDuck: But I have no more parameters.
2014-04-14T16:38:17Z pjb: Then you've got the reduction: that's the result. You can't simplify it anymore.
2014-04-14T16:38:25Z DrDuck: O_o
2014-04-14T16:38:52Z DrDuck: Well what's the point in that, then?  How can (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (f x))) represent one.
2014-04-14T16:38:59Z pjb: When you think about it, lambda calculus computation is nothing, just substitutions.
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2014-04-14T16:40:31Z pjb: Well, mathematically, any set that has an distinguished element, and an operation that gives another element from an element of the set, is equivalent (isomorph) to the set of Natural integers {0, succ(0), succ(succ(0))}.
2014-04-14T16:41:06Z DrDuck: Yes.
2014-04-14T16:41:43Z oleo: and succ(0) does not have to be 1 ?
2014-04-14T16:41:50Z pjb: It is 1 by definition.
2014-04-14T16:41:56Z oleo: but not required ?!
2014-04-14T16:42:16Z pjb: It is implicitely required, since this is the DEFINITION of 1.  1 ≡ succ(0).
2014-04-14T16:43:03Z oleo: what if succ(0) := +2 i meant.....
2014-04-14T16:43:09Z oleo: or +3 or +4....
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2014-04-14T16:43:46Z pjb: succ(0) = succ(succ(0))  wouldn't do.  This is a constraint on the succ function:
2014-04-14T16:44:01Z oleo: ok
2014-04-14T16:45:21Z oleo: but the increment could be anything and it would still be isomorph......
2014-04-14T16:45:33Z DrDuck: So if I'm to  Define 'one' and 'two' directly (not in terms of zero and add-1). How would I go about doing that? Why wouldn't it be best to define 'one' ass (add-1 zero) and 'two' as (compose add-1 zero)?
2014-04-14T16:45:36Z DrDuck: And...
2014-04-14T16:46:06Z pjb: Smaller(x) = { y | ∃n, y = succ^n(0) ∧ y≠x }
2014-04-14T16:46:37Z DrDuck: "Give a direct defnition fo addition procedure + (not in terms of repeated application of add-1)" -- why would it not be fine to use compose and add-1 as some definition of +?
2014-04-14T16:46:38Z pjb: succ(x) ∉ Smaller(x)∪{x}.
2014-04-14T16:46:58Z pjb: It would be fine. Mathematically.
2014-04-14T16:47:11Z DrDuck: Why won't they allow it?
2014-04-14T16:47:22Z pjb: But when you use a computer to perform the substitutions, each substitution takes some time and energy. So you want to reduce the number of substitutions needed.
2014-04-14T16:47:23Z DrDuck: And how am I to figure this out heh.
2014-04-14T16:47:33Z DrDuck: Oh.
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2014-04-14T16:47:49Z pjb: With the algorithm using add-1, you have O(n) substitutions to perform.
2014-04-14T16:48:01Z pjb: You start from the meaning described above.
2014-04-14T16:48:26Z pjb: N is a function that takes a function f and applies it N times on an argument x.
2014-04-14T16:48:38Z pjb: so A+B is a function that takes a function f and applies it A+B times on an argument x.
2014-04-14T16:49:08Z DrDuck: Right. That sounds fair to me. :<
2014-04-14T16:49:13Z pjb: (lambda (a b) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) (… x))))  … must call f a+b times.
2014-04-14T16:49:35Z pjb: But remember, you don't have + yet, you are definining it.
2014-04-14T16:49:44Z pjb: So you can only use the functions a and b.
2014-04-14T16:49:50Z DrDuck: woah
2014-04-14T16:50:51Z pjb: for example, (define add (lambda (a b) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) ((a f) x))))) would be wrong, since it would call f only a times.
2014-04-14T16:51:10Z pjb: But that's good, since we only need to call f b times now.
2014-04-14T16:51:24Z pjb: So: …
2014-04-14T16:51:45Z pjb: happily, b is a function that can produce a function that calls f b times!
2014-04-14T16:51:57Z pjb: (b f) is a function that calls f b times on its argument.
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2014-04-14T16:52:01Z pjb: So: …
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2014-04-14T16:57:28Z DrDuck: This is a smack in the face.
2014-04-14T16:58:31Z oleo: (lambda (x) ((a f) x))))) calls f a times
2014-04-14T16:59:45Z oleo: (lambda (x) ((b (lambda (x) ((a f) x)))))) x))) calls the above b times ?
2014-04-14T17:01:30Z pjb: It should be: (lambda (x) (f (f (f (f … (f #|<- b * f|# (f (f … (f #|<- a * f|# x)))))))))
2014-04-14T17:01:41Z pjb: There's no need for lambda (x) inside.
2014-04-14T17:01:45Z pjb: (define add (lambda (a b) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) ((b f) ((a f) x))))))
2014-04-14T17:02:16Z oleo: ah
2014-04-14T17:02:32Z pjb: In lambda calculus, you would write: (define add (lambda (a) (lambda (b) (lambda (f) (lambda (x) ((b f) ((a f) x))))))) ; but with currying, it's the same.
2014-04-14T17:03:18Z DrDuck: That makes sense. What is the reader to take away from all of this in this section -- "What Is Meant by Data?"?
2014-04-14T17:04:21Z pjb: I'd rather ask the question: what is meant by function or processing?
2014-04-14T17:05:07Z DrDuck: Nono I mean "What Is Meant by Data?" is the name of the section in the book.
2014-04-14T17:05:56Z pjb: Yes.  You could say that data is any object that is "processed", that is, that can be passed as argument to a function.
2014-04-14T17:05:59Z DrDuck: I was asking what is this exercise supposed to give the reader to take away from the section? That something we conceive as pure data, numbers, can even be represented by procedure -- Church numerals?
2014-04-14T17:07:13Z DrDuck: I hope when we get to making compilers and interpreters in ch4 and 5 we wont use this stuff to represent numbers heh. :|
2014-04-14T17:07:19Z DrDuck: It's really hurting my brain.
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2014-04-14T17:08:46Z pjb: Mathematically, you can start from any set of axioms.  If you take set theory axioms, functions are just sets with some specific property.  In set theory, you can construct numbers as sets, distinct from functions.  But with Church numerals, we construct sets from functions (which are just sets).  The point is that a direct construction, or a construction thru function, give equivalent objects (isomorph sets).  Even if they may be
2014-04-14T17:08:46Z pjb: different sets.
2014-04-14T17:09:51Z DrDuck: That's pretty neat.
2014-04-14T17:10:45Z pjb: Of course, not.  We abstract away. We don't write {{}} + {{},{{}}} = {{},{{},{{}}},{{},{{}},{{{}}}}}.}
2014-04-14T17:10:49Z pjb: we write 1 + 2 = 3.
2014-04-14T17:11:13Z pjb: But notice that Church numerals have an interesting property: they are executable functions.
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2014-04-14T17:11:53Z pjb: (((add-1 (add-1 zero)) (lambda (x) (+ 1 x))) 0) --> 2
2014-04-14T17:12:05Z oleo: collecting states whilst processing down a chain in order to carry out a final collapse at the end of the chain and return it back up the chain....
2014-04-14T17:12:22Z oleo: lol
2014-04-14T17:12:41Z nisstyre: pjb: isn't the successor function in STLC basically a macro?
2014-04-14T17:13:01Z DrDuck: pjb: Wouldn't that be 3 and not 2? O_o
2014-04-14T17:14:13Z pjb: (((add-1 (add-1 zero)) list) '()) --> ((()))
2014-04-14T17:14:19Z pjb: 1+1+0 = 2
2014-04-14T17:14:53Z DrDuck: I think I'll take your word for it. :)
2014-04-14T17:15:45Z pjb: (((add-1 (add-1 zero)) (lambda (x) (display "|"))) '()) prints: ||
2014-04-14T17:15:57Z pjb: Don't take my word, try it out at the repl.
2014-04-14T17:16:30Z DrDuck: :O
2014-04-14T17:19:34Z DrDuck: It does work. I thought it would do something else. I still need to improve on what parameter goes where with lambda functions.
2014-04-14T17:20:58Z oleo: look at the above lamda calc example pjb mentioned
2014-04-14T17:21:05Z oleo: look at the order
2014-04-14T17:21:09Z pjb: Notice how you can use Church numerals as repeat loops.
2014-04-14T17:22:39Z pjb: (((add-1 (add-1 (add-1 zero))) (lambda (x) (display (car x)) (newline) (cdr x))) '(one two three))
2014-04-14T17:22:59Z oleo: the innermost lambda is using x, b is from the lambda next to it (and (b f) is the first op in the innermost lambda
2014-04-14T17:23:00Z oleo: )
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2014-04-14T18:27:26Z theseb: is this correct.....   ,my_list inside a macro says you should eval my_list ...... ,@my_list says you should do same but ALSO drop the outer parens right? simple pimple?
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2014-04-14T18:29:00Z ijp: macro is a redherring, it's a property of quasiquote. but basically yes
2014-04-14T18:29:15Z pjb: That's not inside a macro, that's inside a quasiquoted expression.
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2014-04-15T13:53:22Z nalaginrut: Simple, but not so simple http://goo.gl/Y7ACfm
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2014-04-15T13:57:17Z jjavaholic: http://www.lochnessinvestigation.com/cameras.html
2014-04-15T13:57:37Z jjavaholic: sorry wrong channel
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2014-04-15T14:14:58Z ianjneu: Riastradh: any chance you'll fix handling of #; in paredit?
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2014-04-15T14:36:08Z Riastradh: ianjneu, what is broken, exactly?  I suspect you'll find there are bugs in GNU Emacs handling it more than bugs in paredit, which makes it difficult for paredit to do anything useful.
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2014-04-15T14:41:15Z ianjneu: Riastradh: I realized this after I said it. Yes, I want emacs to get #; figured out. Since it has support for sexp navigation, it should be relatively simple to add it (conceptually). I'll need to get my hands on the source and dig in.
2014-04-15T14:41:27Z ianjneu: then hope they accept my patch.
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2014-04-15T14:47:33Z Riastradh: Unfortunately, the whole approach that GNU Emacs takes to handling #; is basically a bug.
2014-04-15T14:48:27Z Riastradh: There's not much reason to for GNU Emacs to consider #; to be anything other than whitespace or to have it affect interpretation of the surrounding text.
2014-04-15T14:49:39Z Riastradh: Instead, GNU Emacs tries to be very clever and use heuristic font lock kludges to mark the following form as a comment so that if paredit asks `Am I in a comment right now?' Emacs confidently says `Yes!' no differently from a line or block comment.
2014-04-15T14:52:53Z ianjneu: Riastradh: I don't really know what font lock is.
2014-04-15T14:53:03Z Riastradh: It's GNU Emacs's syntax highlighting engine.
2014-04-15T14:53:53Z ianjneu: Are you suggesting that the whole API needs an overhaul?
2014-04-15T14:54:16Z Riastradh: I'm suggesting that ~everything GNU Emacs does to handle #; is wrong.
2014-04-15T14:55:16Z ianjneu: awesome.
2014-04-15T14:55:21Z Riastradh: At the very least, GNU Emacs could do *nothing* to handle #; and treat it as `#' followed by a line comment.  That would be better than the current situation -- instead of having it broken all the time, you would have the option of writing `#;' on its own line and the subsequent form on another line.
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2014-04-15T15:07:00Z ianjneu: Riastradh: I don't suppose you remember where all this logic is in the source?
2014-04-15T15:07:31Z Riastradh: No, I don't.
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2014-04-15T15:08:07Z Riastradh: It could have changed in the past couple years, too -- I haven't tried exercising it, or looking into it since then when the maintainer closed my bug report about this and refused to acknowledge that it's a problem.
2014-04-15T15:08:57Z ianjneu: lame.
2014-04-15T15:10:24Z ianjneu: just checked 24.3. Still a problem.
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2014-04-15T15:15:45Z Riastradh: Hmm, it seems my memory badly deceived me.
2014-04-15T15:15:52Z Riastradh: What is the symptom you're seeing?
2014-04-15T15:16:22Z Riastradh: The maintainer didn't close my bug report, or refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem, after all; but didn't like my solution of treating #; as whitespace or of doing nothing special for #; at all.
2014-04-15T15:16:41Z Riastradh: I just checked in 23.4.1, and paredit didn't break with a couple trivial examples of #; I threw at it.
2014-04-15T15:18:07Z ianjneu: Riastradh: I have a 100-line long function with a (if (foo bar baz #;qux)~% then~% else) expression. The function's parens aren't seen as matching, even though they should.
2014-04-15T15:18:39Z ianjneu: When I navigate forward and back on inner sexps, it ends up figuring out that they do match.
2014-04-15T15:18:43Z ianjneu: It's really weird.
2014-04-15T15:18:57Z Riastradh: lisppaste it?
2014-04-15T15:19:04Z Riastradh: Also, what does M-x check-parens think?
2014-04-15T15:20:59Z ianjneu: http://pasterack.org/pastes/3646
2014-04-15T15:21:21Z ianjneu: it says unmatched bracket or quote.
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2014-04-15T15:22:12Z ianjneu: if you navigate to the end and backward-sexp in this paste, it'll mark it as matching, though it doesn't do that in the larger file containing it. I have to navigate within the function definition first.
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2014-04-15T15:22:37Z Riastradh: How do you get the raw text of a paste in pasterack?
2014-04-15T15:23:23Z ianjneu: you can click fork and it'll open in a textarea
2014-04-15T15:23:31Z ianjneu: not the best interface, I know.
2014-04-15T15:23:45Z ianjneu: I'll talk to stchang about a "raw text" link.
2014-04-15T15:24:54Z Riastradh: Works for me.  M-x check-parens reports no problem, C-M-f and C-M-b on the whole thing proceed happily.
2014-04-15T15:25:07Z ianjneu: weird.
2014-04-15T15:25:17Z ianjneu: save in a file and reopen it.
2014-04-15T15:25:57Z Riastradh: Aha.
2014-04-15T15:26:01Z Riastradh: Now it's borken.
2014-04-15T15:26:20Z Riastradh: But if I manually enable paredit-mode, it works.
2014-04-15T15:26:50Z Riastradh: Hmm...
2014-04-15T15:27:02Z Riastradh: If I view the part of the buffer with #; in it and then do check-parens, it passes.
2014-04-15T15:27:33Z Riastradh: So I would guess that what's happening is that the font lock kludge isn't kicking in until you view that part of the buffer and require it to be highlighted.
2014-04-15T15:27:47Z ianjneu: fun fun
2014-04-15T15:28:32Z Riastradh: Anyway, here's the bug: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3824  Feel free to follow up to it.
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2014-04-15T15:32:19Z ianjneu: I'm not sure I can say much more than, "yup. Still a bug."
2014-04-15T15:32:42Z Riastradh: You can give an example of how it breaks down, since my cursory investigation in 2011 evidently didn't turn up any problems.
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2014-04-15T15:40:02Z ianjneu: sent the followup.
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2014-04-15T18:13:16Z ecraven: Riastradh: on a scale from 1 to 5, how hard would it be to make (xorg) edwin work correctly with utf-8? that's the other thing besides colors :(
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2014-04-15T18:20:07Z Riastradh: Somewhere around 3+i.  I don't really know.
2014-04-15T18:26:43Z pjb: Define "work correctly with utf-8"! :-)
2014-04-15T18:27:04Z ecraven: pjb: I'd be happy if it displayed correctly and didn't choke entirely on input ;)
2014-04-15T18:27:33Z ecraven: but there really is no way around unicode for me :-/
2014-04-15T18:31:17Z Riastradh: Lots of Edwin relies on uniform-width 8-bit character cell arrays.  Lots of the X support does too.
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2014-04-15T18:45:07Z ecraven: unfortunately for native non-english speakers, that is an incorrect assumption ;(
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2014-04-15T18:53:32Z Riastradh: Well, it's not an assumption.  It's just an architecture.
2014-04-15T18:54:16Z ecraven: I do understand where it comes from, it does however make actually *using* Edwin hard :(
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2014-04-16T00:21:48Z comprehension: hey all. i'm a little confused by the distinction between "fundamental forms" and other (it seems) primitive types/operations in scheme. can, for example, continuations be implemented with the fundamental forms?
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2014-04-16T00:28:00Z Riastradh: Hmm, fundamental form, that's the differential quadratic form associated with a metric tensor on a manifold, right?
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2014-04-16T00:29:05Z ijp: Riastradh: it's unfortunate that comprehension missed your witticism
2014-04-16T00:30:17Z comprehension: Riastradh: yep, i seem to have been taken out by a poor internet connection. what did i miss?
2014-04-16T00:30:52Z Riastradh: Just a differential geometry joke, nothing to lose sleep over.
2014-04-16T00:31:00Z Riastradh: 00:28 < Riastradh> Hmm, fundamental form, that's the differential quadratic  form associated with a metric tensor on a manifold, right?
2014-04-16T00:32:10Z comprehension: Riastradh: i mean the one defined in the r6rs standard.... i'm not a scheme-er really so i apologize if i got any vocab wrong?
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2014-04-16T01:19:17Z tali713: comprehension: do you perhaps mean "normal form"?
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2014-04-16T02:54:20Z pjdelport: comprehension: many primitives are expressible in terms of each other; there isn't necessarily a single one (or ones) that must necessarily be primitive
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2014-04-16T02:57:56Z pjdelport: comprehension: You can implement continuations (assuming you mean continuations as in call/cc) by rewriting to continuation-passing style, for example.
2014-04-16T02:58:11Z pjdelport: (Several Scheme implementations work that way internally.)
2014-04-16T02:59:23Z pjdelport: Practically speaking, an implementation's choice of primitives is mostly about what's the most convenient, or efficient.
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2014-04-16T03:02:55Z ijp: if you are doing a global rewrite, you can't really claim it is less primitive
2014-04-16T03:02:59Z pjdelport: comprehension: If you're interested in the theory of this, you probably want to read more about the concept meta-circular evaluators, which implement language primitives in terms of themselves.
2014-04-16T03:03:15Z pjdelport: and related concepts, like reflective towers
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2014-04-16T07:21:07Z taylanub: pjdelport: actually, a meta-circular evaluator is just an evaluator written in the language it evaluates, i.e. the implementation is written in the implemented language, meaning there's a prior (second) implementation; isn't this separate from language constructs implementing each-other within a single implementation ?
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2014-04-16T07:22:48Z pjdelport: taylanub: I think you have those two swapped; just being implemented in the same language makes a compiler self-hosting, but not necessarily metacircular.
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2014-04-16T07:24:45Z ijp: metacircular means it can run its own source
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2014-04-16T07:25:08Z pjdelport: Expressing the (interpreted) language's features in terms of the (interpreter's) own language features is what makes an interpreter meta-circular
2014-04-16T07:25:54Z pjdelport: ijp: that's just self-interpretation; meta-circular interpretation is a bit more specialized
2014-04-16T07:26:03Z ijp: pjdelport: if the languages differ, then it is not circular
2014-04-16T07:26:33Z pjdelport: You can make a non-meta-circular self-interpreter by reimplementing the language features in question from scratch, as opposed to deferring to their existing implementation.
2014-04-16T07:26:52Z ijp: right, fair point
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2014-04-16T07:28:10Z taylanub: it's a special-case of a self-hosted compiler/interpreter then, no ?  that's more or less what I meant as well.  in any case there's a difference between using the host language's features to implement the hosted language's features, and implementing additional functionality within a language itself through additional syntax and variable bindings
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2014-04-16T07:28:38Z pjdelport: taylanub: right
2014-04-16T07:29:12Z taylanub: then couldn't we say that e.g. call/cc must be a primitive, because it can't be defined with `lambda' ?
2014-04-16T07:29:17Z ijp: as usual, people mostly agree, and we are all trying to 1up each other
2014-04-16T07:29:33Z pjdelport: It can, by translation.
2014-04-16T07:29:51Z taylanub: so it's a case where something is clearly a primitive; a contrasting situation is `if' and `cond' of which one must be a primitive and the other can be implemented via that
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2014-04-16T07:30:09Z ijp: earlier, I said that I don't believe it is less primitive, because you need to do a global translation
2014-04-16T07:30:26Z taylanub: comprehension: in case you're still here ^ :)
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2014-04-16T07:31:18Z taylanub: pjdelport: I'm not sure if having to rewrite a piece of code to imitate a functionality is the same thing as implementing that functionality ..
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2014-04-16T07:31:57Z ijp: if it were a local translation, like with let* or cond, it's different
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2014-04-16T07:32:44Z pjdelport: taylanub: It's not "imitating" the functionality; it's a fully valid way of implementing the functionality. The translation occurs at the interpreter level, and is in principal no different to how an interpreter may internally translate cond to if (or vice versa).
2014-04-16T07:33:37Z ijp: pjdelport: your interpreter could convert C to Scheme, but we wouldn't make the claim that Scheme is more primitive than C
2014-04-16T07:34:33Z pjdelport: ijp: "Primitive" is a relative term; if you're writing a C-to-Scheme translator, then Scheme is the primitives that you're implementing C with, yes.
2014-04-16T07:34:43Z ijp: since universal computation is so trivial, we've not really developed good systems for comparing primitiveness
2014-04-16T07:34:47Z taylanub: pjdelport: I meant within an existing implementation.  If you add something to the interpreter, you're adding a primitive.  No matter what way I look at it, call/cc is a primitive, it's a procedure that cannot be added through (define (call/cc proc) ...) to an existing implementation that has all of Scheme but call/cc.
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2014-04-16T07:35:43Z ijp: pjdelport: in any case, your notion of primitive is very implementation specific
2014-04-16T07:35:48Z taylanub: or at least, that's what I understand the term "primitive", something that cannot be added via `define' or `define-syntax' to an implementation that has all of Scheme but it.
2014-04-16T07:36:19Z ijp: you may as well stipulate another interpreter that has continuations as primitive, and claim it isn't
2014-04-16T07:37:26Z pjdelport: taylanub: Sure, but there's a difference between definitions at the language level and at the interpreter level. You can't "(define (call/cc proc) ...)" in the interpreted language (unless you have another suitable primitive available), but that's a different question to whether call/cc is primitive inside the interpreter itself. (It might, or might not be,
2014-04-16T07:37:26Z pjdelport: depending on how the interpreter approaches things.)
2014-04-16T07:37:40Z ijp: whereas with lambda/let, lambda is in a sense always more primitive
2014-04-16T07:38:21Z pjdelport: ijp: It's implementation-specific because that's what comprehension's question was about. :)
2014-04-16T07:38:42Z ijp: it isn't really
2014-04-16T07:38:56Z taylanub: inside the interpreter, obviuosly nothing *needs* to be primitive; when talking about a language (as an abstract entity, separate from implementations), "is a primitive" means "needs to be a primitive" to me.  I don't see how a definition of the term "primitive" that refers to implementation details is useful ...
2014-04-16T07:39:26Z taylanub: "semantics!"
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2014-04-16T07:40:59Z ijp: anyway, as we all said right at the beginning, if you concede to rewriting the whole program, then yes it can be implemented in terms of other forms
2014-04-16T07:44:09Z pjdelport: ijp: It can be implemented in terms of other forms without that, too (e.g. let/cc).
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2014-04-16T07:46:59Z pjdelport: Everything is co-expressible in terms of something else; that's why the very notion of "primitive" is not meaningful without reference to some implementation.
2014-04-16T07:47:36Z ijp: you can use external criteria
2014-04-16T07:47:37Z ecraven: you could define "primitive" as "directly encodable in an instruction" :) that's at least measurable on any architecture
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2014-04-16T07:47:45Z taylanub: or reference to the *standard*, for instance `let/cc' is not standard, hence call/cc in the standard is necessarily a primitive
2014-04-16T07:47:46Z pjdelport: IOW, primitiveness is a property of implementations.
2014-04-16T07:47:53Z ijp: how many rules are required to express between two "equivalent" definitions
2014-04-16T07:48:03Z pjdelport: ecraven: Right, exactly; it's an evaluator tower all the way down to the silicon. :)
2014-04-16T07:48:10Z ijp: for instance, I would claim that if is more primitive than cond
2014-04-16T07:48:40Z ecraven: pjdelport: you could of course go further down, thinking about how the microcode is actually implemented... but that's not useful in most cases, I believe
2014-04-16T07:49:28Z ijp: in fact, I doubt you dispute the use of an external measure, since how else could you choose your primitives?
2014-04-16T07:49:34Z pjdelport: taylanub: By that metric, everything that's standardized is "primitive".
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2014-04-16T07:49:59Z pjdelport: Even when it's expected that things will be implemented in terms of other things.
2014-04-16T07:52:42Z pjdelport: ijp: That's an interesting train of thought, by the way: have you read Felleisen's paper on expressive power?
2014-04-16T07:52:55Z pjdelport: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.51.4656
2014-04-16T07:53:00Z ijp: I glanced it once or twice, but I never sat down and went through it
2014-04-16T07:53:16Z pjdelport: It's basically about formalizing that concept.
2014-04-16T07:54:20Z taylanub: pjdelport: to repeat what I understand under "primitive" in the context of a language: if a binding in the language specification can be acquired by use of `define' or `define-syntax' within a language that conforms to all of the specification except not having that binding, it's not primitive
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2014-04-16T07:57:33Z pjdelport: taylanub: Right. (Assuming you restrict definitions to existing definitions in the standard only.)
2014-04-16T08:02:08Z pjdelport: That is still just defining primitives in terms of a particular implementation surface, though: in this case, strictly the specification in question.
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2014-04-16T08:05:08Z pjdelport: That's far from the only implementation surface that's interesting to consider, though.
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2014-04-16T09:42:16Z olalonde: hey everyone... I can't seem to get to install scheme on OS X
2014-04-16T09:42:22Z olalonde: I've tried brew install mit-scheme
2014-04-16T09:43:03Z olalonde: and also downloaded the DMG installer ... which works fine but it seems i can only get it to work when i launch it from the application directory
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2014-04-16T09:48:27Z taylanub: olalonde: What OS X version are you on ?  10.9 is very new and has some bigger changes, so things that worked on 10.7/8 might not work on .9 and require porting
2014-04-16T09:48:46Z olalonde: yes.. latest OS X
2014-04-16T09:48:57Z olalonde: the build stalls when using brew install :(
2014-04-16T09:49:00Z taylanub: olalonde: that being said, I have MacPorts on OS X 10.9 and see they have an mit-scheme package
2014-04-16T09:49:22Z taylanub: MacPorts always worked perfectly for me, I can recommend it, though I didn't try any of the alternatives
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2014-04-16T09:49:32Z olalonde: ok thanks
2014-04-16T09:50:09Z taylanub: On the other hand I keep hearing people here and there complain about how they're having problems with brew .. might be observer bias though.
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2014-04-16T10:11:20Z pjb: olalonde: sudo port install bigloo chicken gambit-c gauche ikarus-scheme-devel mit-scheme mzscheme scheme48 sicl sisc
2014-04-16T10:11:31Z pjb: http://www.macports.org/
2014-04-16T10:13:10Z pjb: brew works also, but they may have a preference for ruby stuff ;-)
2014-04-16T10:16:12Z taylanub: pjb: Why would you include everything but Guile :P
2014-04-16T10:16:32Z olalonde: ok
2014-04-16T10:17:46Z taylanub: (well MacPorts has no Guile 2.0 unfortunately)
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2014-04-16T10:20:14Z olalonde: I'm trying to read SICP :)
2014-04-16T10:21:38Z olalonde: using some online interpreter for now but it's a bit a PITA
2014-04-16T10:21:50Z olalonde: can anyone see what's wrong with my solution for reverse: https://gist.github.com/10848108
2014-04-16T10:21:54Z olalonde: it just returns the same list
2014-04-16T10:22:31Z olalonde: my reasoning was to append the first item to the rest of the list .. repeat (length list) times
2014-04-16T10:25:27Z ecraven: olalonde: your recursive call seems wrong
2014-04-16T10:26:40Z ecraven: are you allowed to use set-cdr! ?
2014-04-16T10:27:13Z olalonde: yes i think there's something wrong with my count somehow
2014-04-16T10:27:19Z olalonde: I don't think so :)
2014-04-16T10:27:34Z olalonde: never heard of it and I'd rather not use stuff I haven't heard about yet to practice properly :)
2014-04-16T10:29:17Z olalonde: oh
2014-04-16T10:29:32Z vraid: olalonde: your function iterates through the list and moves the first element to the end
2014-04-16T10:29:35Z vraid: in a complete loop
2014-04-16T10:29:45Z olalonde: right lol
2014-04-16T10:29:53Z olalonde: just realized that eheh
2014-04-16T10:29:55Z vraid: so when it finished, everything is in the same place as it started out
2014-04-16T10:31:13Z vraid: it's easier if you use two list
2014-04-16T10:31:15Z vraid: lists
2014-04-16T10:32:12Z vraid: and put the first element of one at the start of the other, one by one
2014-04-16T10:43:11Z olalonde: ok, managed to do it : https://gist.github.com/10850907
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2014-04-16T10:43:37Z olalonde: thanks
2014-04-16T10:44:18Z olalonde: do schemers typically define those common functions by themselves or are there widely used "standard" libraries?
2014-04-16T10:44:25Z vraid: you can shorten (append (list (car rxs)) result)    to (cons (car rxs) result)
2014-04-16T10:44:41Z olalonde: ok ok thanks
2014-04-16T10:45:24Z vraid: scheme is very minimalistic in itself, but there are add-ons
2014-04-16T10:45:55Z olalonde: ok
2014-04-16T10:46:41Z vraid: e.g racket, which adds a lot of everything
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2014-04-16T10:47:52Z olalonde: cool
2014-04-16T10:48:39Z ecraven: olalonde: the srfis are a try at getting "standardized extensions"
2014-04-16T10:48:52Z olalonde: srfis?
2014-04-16T10:49:20Z ecraven: http://srfi.schemers.org
2014-04-16T10:49:28Z olalonde: ok I see
2014-04-16T10:49:33Z ecraven: most systems support some :)
2014-04-16T10:49:52Z ecraven: srfi-1 is list stuff
2014-04-16T10:49:59Z ecraven: srfi-13 is strings
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2014-04-16T10:53:52Z ecraven: olalonde: which Scheme are you using?
2014-04-16T10:54:04Z olalonde: just using an online interpreter now
2014-04-16T10:54:11Z olalonde: http://repl.it/languages/Scheme
2014-04-16T10:54:26Z ecraven: some Schemes have auto-completion with a good editor, that might help to find functions
2014-04-16T10:54:56Z ecraven: racket is often mentioned here, guile also works under emacs, mit/gnu scheme also with slime
2014-04-16T10:55:03Z ecraven: probably chicken too has some support
2014-04-16T10:55:40Z ecraven: I even hacked some slime support for chibi-scheme some months ago, to get auto-completion working
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2014-04-16T11:00:26Z olalonde: yay i manage to implement "map" :)
2014-04-16T11:00:39Z olalonde: starting to like functional programming :P
2014-04-16T11:01:07Z olalonde: my brain is really not used to think that way but  I guess it becomes more natural with practice
2014-04-16T11:14:52Z ecraven: it's also a very powerful way to think, as you don't need to keep track of side-effects
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2014-04-16T13:23:41Z vanila: why do they keep making more scheme standards?
2014-04-16T13:24:08Z LeoNerd: Because software that doesn't continue to evolve and adapt to current requirements will die.
2014-04-16T13:24:15Z LeoNerd: "evolve or die" say the biologists
2014-04-16T13:24:24Z samth: vanila: because they don't understand why previous standards didn't work
2014-04-16T13:24:55Z LeoNerd: r5 was good, but it lacked a lot of things people considered essential, so a new one is being written to include more things that people have found useful, so they can be standardised
2014-04-16T13:25:31Z LeoNerd: Scheme specs are written a lot like C specs; they don't try to invent new things or set trends, they simply document what seems to be the common consensus among existing implementations, to become standard things everyone can rely on
2014-04-16T13:26:15Z LeoNerd: As long as implementations continue to invent new ideas, and share ideas that become de-facto standards, the Scheme spec will continue to follow along behind them writing them down to become {er.. that word that means the opposite of de-facto that I forget} standards
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2014-04-16T13:28:58Z LeoNerd: de-rigur? de-jure?
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2014-04-16T13:31:51Z LeoNerd: de-jure, so wikitionary seems to think
2014-04-16T13:34:23Z ecraven: LeoNerd: r6rs didn't seem to actually cover what is implemented
2014-04-16T13:34:26Z ecraven: r7rs seems better here
2014-04-16T13:34:38Z LeoNerd: *fingers in ears* La La R6 did not exist
2014-04-16T13:34:42Z LeoNerd: It's like The Matrix Reloaded
2014-04-16T13:35:16Z LeoNerd: The standards go: Report, Revised Report, R3, R4, R5, R7-draft
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2014-04-16T13:35:22Z vanila: haha
2014-04-16T13:36:53Z pjb: or like IV V II III VI.
2014-04-16T13:38:20Z LeoNerd: You're thinking of Star Trek films
2014-04-16T13:38:28Z pjb: yes
2014-04-16T13:38:44Z pjb: Star Wars
2014-04-16T13:38:52Z pjb: not Star Trek.
2014-04-16T13:39:27Z LeoNerd: Oooh I seee, yes.
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2014-04-16T14:26:08Z ijp: of course, it doesn't help that most of the people spreading the "r6rs is shit" line have not read it
2014-04-16T14:27:19Z ijp: at least the people who say the same of star wars 1-3, and matrix 2-3 did
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2014-04-16T14:32:00Z z0d: ijp: movies are personal preference, while R6RS, you can make arguments for/against based on facts
2014-04-16T14:32:15Z ijp: z0d: yes, but so few do
2014-04-16T14:33:17Z ijp: almost every argument starts (and ends) with vague aesthetic assertions based on page count
2014-04-16T14:37:34Z vanila: so is r6rs good?
2014-04-16T14:37:49Z ijp: vanila: there are good parts, and there are bad parts
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2014-04-16T15:03:55Z samth: vanila: r6rs tried to develop a broadly-compatible version of scheme that could support real future use
2014-04-16T15:04:22Z samth: but it turns out lots of people preferred not doing things to doing things
2014-04-16T15:05:09Z LeoNerd: R6 went a lot more for inventing things, than documenting prevailing consensus among implemenations, though.
2014-04-16T15:05:13Z vanila: how much has it succeeded? and  have implementers taking it up?
2014-04-16T15:05:15Z LeoNerd: C99 did similar
2014-04-16T15:05:22Z vanila: implementations*
2014-04-16T15:05:35Z ijp: vanila: there are ~8 implementations, which means it's a total failure
2014-04-16T15:05:40Z samth: vanila: r6 was implemented by most of the largest implementations
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2014-04-16T15:10:16Z vanila: has r7rs seen better adoption?
2014-04-16T15:10:36Z samth: vanila: r7rs has been primarily adopted by implementations that didn't adopt r6rs
2014-04-16T15:11:34Z sethalves: Sagittarius adopted both
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2014-04-16T15:12:38Z vanila: so this will probably influence r8rs towards being smaller?
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2014-04-16T15:13:45Z samth: vanila: no -- there is basically no possibility of a widely-adopted scheme standard
2014-04-16T15:13:56Z vanila: how did it get that bad?
2014-04-16T15:14:21Z sethalves: vanila -- for r7rs chibi, chicken, gauche, sagittarius.  keep an eye on gambit, foment, picrin
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2014-04-16T15:14:21Z samth: vanila: scheme people disagree about what belongs in a programming language, and how such languages should be designed
2014-04-16T15:15:04Z sethalves: i am not as pessimistic as samth.  r7rs-small is for the r5rs fans.  r7rs-large will be for the r6rs fans.
2014-04-16T15:15:38Z tali713: vanila: well, unless true consensus is reached on something there will be dissenters, almost by definition.  and the larger the population, the harder it is to reach consensus.
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2014-04-16T15:16:06Z vanila: I didnt realize r7rs was split into large and small
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2014-04-16T15:16:22Z sethalves: large is in the works.  small is done
2014-04-16T15:16:40Z vanila: okay and would there be a uniform way to say which language you're using?
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2014-04-16T15:16:53Z sethalves: see cond-expand and pals
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2014-04-16T19:43:44Z taylanub has faith in R7RS-large, and doesn't really see the problem in making all its libraries optional
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2014-04-16T23:47:45Z stevejohnson: I just started How to Design Programs and got to the circle-drawing bit, but my circles aren't rendering in DrRacket's REPL. I'm on OS X. Ideas? https://gist.github.com/irskep/47c01afcc4b023aa3f33
2014-04-16T23:48:26Z stevejohnson: i.e. rather than showing the circle, I get "#(struct:object:image% …)"
2014-04-16T23:48:44Z stevejohnson: works fine if I paste in a bitmap, though
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2014-04-16T23:58:24Z vraid: stevejohnson: try using #lang racket instead
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2014-04-17T00:06:45Z garietyxxx: Guys, .scm vs .ss
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2014-04-17T00:11:54Z tsuyoshi: I am having a hard time understanding ellipsis templates
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2014-04-17T00:14:08Z tsuyoshi: this example does not yet make sense to me: (define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo (a ...) (b...)) '((a b)) ...))))
2014-04-17T00:16:24Z vraid: it's a bit like 'map'
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2014-04-17T00:18:51Z vraid: (map (lambda (a b) ('(a b))) a-list b-list)
2014-04-17T00:19:36Z tsuyoshi: alright, so if you have <list> ... then all the members of <list> must be ellipsis pattern variables?
2014-04-17T00:19:37Z vraid: takes elements from all involved lists and maps them into the new form
2014-04-17T00:20:20Z vraid: at least one has to be, i think, the rest will be treated as constants if i'm correct
2014-04-17T00:21:11Z tsuyoshi: can you do like: (syntax-rules () ((foo a (b ...)) '((a b) ...))) ?
2014-04-17T00:21:57Z tsuyoshi: oh maybe I should just try it out and see
2014-04-17T00:22:15Z pjdelport: tsuyoshi: you can, yes
2014-04-17T00:22:43Z pjdelport: that will pair up the single a with each b
2014-04-17T00:23:46Z tsuyoshi: ok so like map (lambda (b) (list a b)) b)
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2014-04-17T00:25:13Z tsuyoshi: I'm trying to write a scheme interpreter, and syntax-rules is the hardest part by far
2014-04-17T00:25:16Z pjdelport: tsuyoshi: Basically, in a replacement template, each form before a ... must contain at least one variable that was also matched with a ... in the pattern
2014-04-17T00:26:18Z pjdelport: and the replacement template is repeated in the macro's expansion for each input form matched by the corresponding pattern variable
2014-04-17T00:27:12Z pjdelport: any non-... pattern variables are just duplicated, for each expansion
2014-04-17T00:27:29Z pjdelport: and if there are pattern variables with ..., they're each replaced in tandem
2014-04-17T00:28:00Z pjdelport: like the (syntax-rules () ((foo (a ...) (b...)) '((a b)) ...)) case
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2014-04-17T00:30:37Z tsuyoshi: hmm
2014-04-17T00:32:12Z pjdelport: (in that case, the two input lists also have to be the same length, or the macro expansion will error)
2014-04-17T00:33:17Z stevejohnson: vraid: using #lang racket works, but now I can't be sure all the book's code will work. :-(
2014-04-17T00:33:30Z stevejohnson: (sorry for the slow response, I was literally stuck in the bathroom due to the door breaking)
2014-04-17T00:33:53Z stevejohnson: I guess if htdp/bsl is broken I just have to deal with it
2014-04-17T00:34:12Z pjdelport: tsuyoshi: in other words, given a replacement template like '((a b) ...), you know that at least one of a or b must be matched with ... in the pattern (or both)
2014-04-17T00:34:19Z pjdelport: anything else will be an error
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2014-04-17T00:37:14Z tsuyoshi: and then (syntax-rules () ((foo (a b) ...) '(a ...))) also works
2014-04-17T00:37:51Z pjdelport: yep
2014-04-17T00:38:32Z tsuyoshi: I can see how this is intuitive to write macros, but I can not precisely imagine an algorithm for expanding these macros
2014-04-17T00:40:26Z tsuyoshi: which is kind of the opposite of the lexical scoping with let-syntax... that is hard to understand when you're using it but easy to implement
2014-04-17T00:40:27Z pjdelport: Have you looked at http://www.cs.indiana.edu/chezscheme/syntax-case/ ?
2014-04-17T00:41:03Z tsuyoshi: I guess, not yet... I was kind of avoiding it because I'm only interested in syntax-rules and not syntax-case
2014-04-17T00:43:36Z pjdelport: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/131433/sources-for-learning-about-scheme-macros-define-syntax-and-syntax-rules has some more links
2014-04-17T00:43:37Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/36mpsze
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2014-04-17T00:47:07Z tsuyoshi: excellent, thanks
2014-04-17T00:49:52Z pjdelport: tsuyoshi: I'm not sure what the canonical implementation reference is, but William Clinger and Jonathan Rees's "Macros that Work" paper seems to be in the right direction
2014-04-17T00:49:55Z pjdelport: http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/macros_that_work.ps
2014-04-17T00:50:37Z pjdelport: the R4RS Acknowledgements has a little timeline, and references: https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scheme-reports/r4rs-html/r4rs_12.html#SEC81
2014-04-17T00:50:42Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kzrqars
2014-04-17T00:52:15Z pjdelport: and http://mumble.net/~jar/pubs/scheme-of-things/easy-macros.ps
2014-04-17T00:54:02Z tsuyoshi: yeah, I've been looking at the source code for macros that work
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2014-04-17T01:21:13Z rudybot: la la la
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2014-04-17T01:22:01Z asumu: stevejohnson: don't use #lang htdp/bsl, you want to use the language dialog to select "Beginning Student Language"
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2014-04-17T01:22:26Z asumu: stevejohnson: the #lang for BSL is not quite done yet. (also for such questions you may wish to ask in #racket)
2014-04-17T01:25:30Z asumu: stevejohnson: also see the screenshot here which might help http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/prologue.html
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2014-04-17T04:02:38Z cppCzar: I’m having a lot of trouble thinking about functional programming. I need to write a function that can pick apart nodes from a tree represented as a list (even from sublists within a list) and place them in order (left to right) within a returned list
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2014-04-17T04:23:39Z stevejohnson: asumu: I tried setting the language from the menu, but the REPL still said 'racket' and wouldn't change.
2014-04-17T04:23:45Z stevejohnson: anyway I'll go to the correct room
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2014-04-17T04:35:03Z asumu: stevejohnson: Did you try pressing "Run" after changing the language?
2014-04-17T04:42:07Z cppCzar: Does “list?” only return true on on the beginning element of a list?
2014-04-17T04:54:29Z ynasser: cppCzar, I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but here's what the racket documentation says for (list? v): "Returns #t if v is a list: either the empty list, or a pair whose second element is a list."
2014-04-17T04:54:54Z cppCzar: can entire lists be a single element in a list?
2014-04-17T04:55:01Z cppCzar: ynasser: ^
2014-04-17T04:55:54Z ynasser: There can be lists within lists (within lists within lists etc ... ).
2014-04-17T04:57:08Z ynasser: like this: '('(a b) '(b c) d) < the elements of the outermost list are '(a b), '(b c), and d.
2014-04-17T04:57:13Z ynasser: Does that make sense?
2014-04-17T05:05:00Z cppCzar: ynasser: yes. does calling cdr go through the elements of said list? “L = ‘(a b), ‘(b c), d”, “(cdr L) = ‘(b c), d”?
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2014-04-17T05:07:15Z stevejohnson: asumu: yes I did
2014-04-17T05:09:19Z stevejohnson: anyway, gotta sleep
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2014-04-17T06:23:39Z cppCzar: I can’t get trace working on the scheme interpreter
2014-04-17T06:23:41Z cppCzar: how do I use it?
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2014-04-17T06:27:33Z cppCzar: nvm got it
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2014-04-17T07:07:17Z razimonious: well
2014-04-17T07:07:21Z razimonious: anyone alive in here?
2014-04-17T07:07:35Z z0d: yep
2014-04-17T07:07:42Z z0d: I just checked my pulse
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2014-04-17T07:11:33Z razimonious: now what do you think about making a website with scheme?
2014-04-17T07:11:33Z razimonious: bad idea?
2014-04-17T07:11:37Z razimonious: marvelous?
2014-04-17T07:11:44Z razimonious: or somewhrere in between?
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2014-04-17T07:16:54Z razimonious: did I bore you?
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2014-04-17T07:38:57Z razimonious: web and scheme! what a dream!
2014-04-17T07:41:06Z pcoutin: razimonious: uh, I made a registration script using chicken scheme. and i'm very much a scheme noob
2014-04-17T07:41:19Z pcoutin: I still need to add code for it to interface with PostgreSQL
2014-04-17T07:41:39Z pcoutin: I used the fastcgi egg and pregexp
2014-04-17T07:42:30Z razimonious: how did u make the web form?
2014-04-17T07:43:56Z pcoutin: razimonious: uh, for POST and stuff?
2014-04-17T07:44:15Z pcoutin: idk i'll give you the source
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2014-04-17T08:05:17Z pcoutin: http://hastebin.com/pelanabora.lisp inb4 gets exploited
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2014-04-17T15:42:14Z Rptx: Hi everybody. I am learning scheme through SICP, and use vim to code, and tmux to have multiple screens. Changing between windows, and (load)ing the files is annoying. I would like to use edwin, which I think would be more practical, but the font is too small, and "C-x C-+" does not work as in Emacs
2014-04-17T15:42:38Z Rptx: I also tried putting (set-defual-font "monospace-12") in ~/.edwin, but this does not work either
2014-04-17T15:43:05Z Rptx: defualt*
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2014-04-17T15:44:10Z ijp: default
2014-04-17T15:44:13Z Rptx: I read the mit-scheme manual, but it does not say how to do it, actually it specifically says that the manual does not discuss customization
2014-04-17T15:44:56Z Rptx: yeah, wrote it wrong here (twice), but it is right in the file
2014-04-17T15:47:38Z Riastradh: M-x set-font
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2014-04-17T15:50:48Z Rptx: Riastradh: thanks! But ir returns "unkown font name" to "monospace-12" any ideas where I can find supported fonts? are these hard coded, or system wide?
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2014-04-17T16:00:48Z Riastradh: TAB
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2014-04-17T16:21:54Z Rptx: Ok, I have some progress. So M-x set-font works. But (set-font "...") in ~/.edwin still give "unbound variable"
2014-04-17T16:24:16Z Riastradh: ((ref-command set-font) "...")
2014-04-17T16:24:55Z Riastradh: Gotta run.  Email if you need more help (mit-scheme-users at gnu dot org).
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2014-04-17T16:30:14Z Rptx: Thanks!
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2014-04-17T22:48:33Z garietyxxx: Are the  import/export/module methods implementation-specific, or scheme-specific?
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2014-04-17T22:57:49Z ijp: r6rs and r7rs both specified (different) module systems, but most implementations also have their own
2014-04-17T22:58:04Z ijp: so I guess the answer is: yes
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2014-04-18T00:24:56Z garietyxxx: ijp: okay, but if I want to compile scheme into js for Node, how do I make sure the gambit global has the 'require' method mapped to 'load'? Can I define that myself?
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2014-04-18T00:36:30Z aranhoide: garietyxxx: gambit is currently r5rs
2014-04-18T00:37:22Z aranhoide: gambit has no native module system, although it has a namespace feature
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2014-04-18T01:31:05Z Gintoki^: Anyone ever read HTDP?
2014-04-18T01:38:48Z Gintoki^: Ca-CAW Ca-CAW! Chirp chirp chirp, ewoop ewooooooooooooop!
2014-04-18T01:39:15Z ijp: bloody birds, I told you all not to leave pies on the windowsill
2014-04-18T01:43:04Z Gintoki^: i'm reading this super beginner intro to programming book and I can't even understand half the terms used in the preface -_-
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2014-04-18T01:44:28Z ijp: which words are you struggling with?
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2014-04-18T01:45:57Z Gintoki^: umm lets see
2014-04-18T01:45:59Z Gintoki^: algorithmic minutiae
2014-04-18T01:46:13Z Gintoki^: application domains
2014-04-18T01:46:24Z ijp: minutiae are the detals
2014-04-18T01:46:26Z Gintoki^: area of application of what?
2014-04-18T01:46:45Z Gintoki^: idk. I feel like i need to memorize a programming terminology book before i read an intro book
2014-04-18T01:47:07Z Gintoki^: Or maybe i should skip the preface and start with the meat, it'll probably make more sense
2014-04-18T01:48:31Z Gintoki^: Thanks though, I'm just gonna wing it and hope things start falling into place
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2014-04-18T01:58:25Z ijp: sorry about that client trouble
2014-04-18T01:59:01Z ijp: I really doubt that your experience of HTDP is going to be adversely affected by not getting everything in the preface 100%
2014-04-18T01:59:42Z Gintoki^: haha
2014-04-18T02:00:31Z Gintoki^: I've always been a little OCD about understanding everything I read, very uncomfortable to skip anything for me
2014-04-18T02:00:42Z Gintoki^: But with what I'm learning I guess it's something I gotta get used to
2014-04-18T02:01:20Z ijp: often times it's good to press on, and backtrack later
2014-04-18T02:01:30Z ijp: but it's just a preface
2014-04-18T02:06:04Z Gintoki^: I wish I would have found programming sooner. Avoided commitment to any career option because I felt i'd waste years of time learning something I'll get bored of repetitively doing. I choose programming as a last ditch option to get my shit together and find it's what i've been looking for my whole life
2014-04-18T02:06:38Z ijp: rudybot: have you accepted alonzo church as your personal saviour?
2014-04-18T02:06:39Z rudybot: ijp: Alonzo, that is
2014-04-18T02:06:57Z Gintoki^: creativity, problem solving, options to work from home or any atmosphere that suits you
2014-04-18T02:11:27Z asumu: Gintoki^: nice nick, Gintama?
2014-04-18T02:12:03Z asumu: Also HtDP is pretty good. I've TAed for classes using it. The second edition is better.
2014-04-18T02:12:04Z Gintoki^: and an ability to climb the career latter with a portfolio of projects reflecting your intelligence and prowess instead of relying on your social skills and work history
2014-04-18T02:12:37Z Gintoki^: asumu: yep, gintama :)
2014-04-18T02:12:38Z asumu: Also #racket is a good place to talk about HtDP since people there tend to have used it/taught with it, etc.
2014-04-18T02:13:01Z Gintoki^: only reason i'm not using the second edition is I hear it's not finished
2014-04-18T02:13:10Z asumu: It's not done yet, that's true.
2014-04-18T02:13:21Z asumu: But many classes that use HtDP start with 2e and then use 1e for parts that aren't done.
2014-04-18T02:13:42Z Gintoki^: wait...does HtDP use racket or scheme? I might be getting it mixed up with SICP (next to read)
2014-04-18T02:13:44Z asumu: Usually it doesn't matter too much because the missing parts are more "advanced" material (just later in the book really)
2014-04-18T02:13:52Z asumu: HtDP uses neither.
2014-04-18T02:13:53Z Gintoki^: oh ok, thanks
2014-04-18T02:14:02Z asumu: It uses a teaching subset of Racket which is not full Racket.
2014-04-18T02:14:13Z Gintoki^: ooooooh
2014-04-18T02:14:26Z asumu: The reason it does that is to offer better error messages to students.
2014-04-18T02:14:46Z ijp: rudybot: guru meditation error
2014-04-18T02:14:47Z rudybot: ijp: that's exactly what meditation is :) and the hope is that it gives you resources to call upon when not meditating
2014-04-18T02:16:38Z Gintoki^: it would be cool if they could somehow make a teaching language or IDE that makes every bit of code a link to a webpage with example uses and explanation/definition
2014-04-18T02:17:18Z Gintoki^: hell if it's possible, maybe i'll do it one day :P
2014-04-18T02:17:29Z asumu: DrRacket doesn't quite link to examples, but if you press F1 when hovering over an identifier it will send you to the documentation on it.
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2014-04-18T02:17:42Z Gintoki^: oh cool
2014-04-18T02:18:19Z Gintoki^: i spend more time theorizing what my learning experience is going to be like more than i do actually studying -_-
2014-04-18T02:19:57Z asumu: That's called yak-shaving. Everyone does it a bit. :p http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html
2014-04-18T02:20:17Z ijp: at today's prices, you can't afford not to
2014-04-18T02:20:49Z ijp: but this is straight up procrastinating, rather than yak shaving
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2014-04-18T02:21:48Z Riastradh: How disappointing.  ESR doesn't quote the folk etymology of the term `yak shaving'.
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2014-04-18T02:23:14Z Riastradh: Nor does Wiktionary, although it gives an entirely dissatisfying, if perhaps historically accurate, etymology.
2014-04-18T02:25:37Z Gintoki^: lol
2014-04-18T02:25:45Z Gintoki^: that's the best definition i've ever read
2014-04-18T02:29:15Z Gintoki^: I spent a month preparing for python (finding the best possible learning resource) only to find that I'd rather start with HTDP and SICP
2014-04-18T02:29:31Z Gintoki^: and half a month before that preparing for java as a first language
2014-04-18T02:30:09Z Gintoki^: getting carried away reading everybody's differing opinions on this and that, even though i don't know what anyone's talking about it's almost too interesting
2014-04-18T02:33:11Z ijp: well, you know what they say about opinions
2014-04-18T02:33:34Z ijp: opinions are like arseholes; everybody has one, and they all stink
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2014-04-18T02:35:50Z Gintoki^: speaking of which: "SICP is only recommended by pretentious neckbeards."
2014-04-18T02:36:24Z Gintoki^: I hear different opinions everywhere, I read massive loads of them till I have a consensus of the major vote
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2014-04-18T02:37:18Z ijp: when a random sample of 10000 americans were asked about SICP, an overwhelming 99% of them answered "what's SICP"?
2014-04-18T02:38:53Z Gintoki^: Not surprising, I've only ever met 3 total people into programming
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2014-04-18T02:39:21Z Gintoki^: as far as I know
2014-04-18T02:41:36Z Gintoki^: I'm not really sure how this works, but I've read android is all java...will it stay that way or will more options become popular over the years?
2014-04-18T02:46:14Z Gintoki^: Who would put that kind of work into knowing how well known SICP is?
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2014-04-18T04:23:10Z offby1: hi
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2014-04-18T04:38:35Z pjdelport: Gintoki^: Android is a mixture of Java (well, Dalvik / ART Java) and Linux
2014-04-18T04:39:19Z pjdelport: you can work on top of the Dalvik / ART runtime, or in theory run anything else on top of the native POSIX-like platform
2014-04-18T04:39:56Z pjdelport: (but you generally have to work at the VM level to achieve tight integration with the native system UI)
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2014-04-18T04:40:06Z pjdelport: so it's a question of tradeoffs
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2014-04-18T04:43:34Z ralphmazio: Anyone here?
2014-04-18T04:45:53Z offby1: nobody here but us zombie processes.
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2014-04-18T04:53:42Z ralphmazio: Is the little Schemer a good book?
2014-04-18T04:53:59Z ralphmazio: I read the first two questions and it was irritating.  I didn't see the point.
2014-04-18T04:55:43Z ralphmazio: Is it true that this is an atom? atom   Yes,because atom is a string of characters beginning with the letter a.
2014-04-18T04:56:00Z ralphmazio: Is it true that this is an atom? turkey  Yes,because turkey is a string of characters beginning with a letter.
2014-04-18T04:56:12Z ralphmazio: Why even include the first question?
2014-04-18T04:56:57Z ijp: if you don't want to read it, no-one is going to force you
2014-04-18T04:57:12Z ralphmazio: I'm asking a question.
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2014-04-18T04:58:02Z ralphmazio: I don't know what the intent was of that.  I just want to know if it's a good book.
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2014-04-18T05:02:37Z ijp: the whole book is a dialogue of questions and answers, I thought it was fun.
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2014-04-18T05:02:55Z ralphmazio: Ok...that just confused me.
2014-04-18T05:02:56Z ijp: if you got pissed off at the first page, it's probably not for you
2014-04-18T05:03:09Z ralphmazio: Well...I was just confused.
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2014-04-18T05:03:31Z ijp: this is why I don't read Taleb's black swan book
2014-04-18T05:03:33Z ralphmazio: It just feels odd.  Someone in the lisp room said it might be a joke.
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2014-04-18T05:04:31Z ralphmazio: So there really is no distinction there right?  They could have left out the first question?
2014-04-18T05:04:56Z ijp: sure, but it makes sense to start with the easy questions
2014-04-18T05:05:23Z ralphmazio: That just makes me think all atoms should start with an a.
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2014-04-18T05:47:12Z Gintoki^: pjdelport: I guess what I'm wondering is if the majority of businesses use/allow langauges other than java
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2014-04-18T06:19:49Z pjdelport: Gintoki^: On Android, or in general?
2014-04-18T06:20:07Z pjdelport: In general, people obviously much more than just Java.
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2014-04-18T06:21:02Z pjdelport: On Android, it's a more of a technical question than a business one.
2014-04-18T06:22:06Z pjdelport: If you're writing a conventional app, you probably don't have much choice but to work at the Java and Android API level.
2014-04-18T06:22:43Z pjdelport: If you're porting a game written in C, you can mostly ignore Java, and just deal with some minimal scaffolding.
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2014-04-18T06:23:32Z pjdelport: There are all kinds of other options too, but it gets a bit technical.
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2014-04-18T09:14:48Z pyro-: could anyone tell me or point me to resources comparing the power of normal/delimited continuations? is the set of programming constructs that be be expressed with one a subset of those that can be expressed with the other?
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2014-04-18T09:20:05Z pjdelport: pyro-: delimited continuations are more expressive, generally
2014-04-18T09:21:00Z pjdelport: if you squint, undelimited continuations are basically just continuations that are always delimited up to the root interpreter, or whatever
2014-04-18T09:21:07Z pjdelport: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html has a bunch more info
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2014-04-18T09:21:18Z pyro-: pjdelport: thank you very much
2014-04-18T09:21:49Z pyro-: is there such a thing as a delimited analogue of continuation passing style, or is that a meaningless question?
2014-04-18T09:22:39Z pjdelport: pyro-: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/index.html too
2014-04-18T09:28:21Z pjdelport: pyro-: they're related, but I don't think there's a specific analog
2014-04-18T09:29:06Z pjdelport: Once captured, delimited continuations behave like normal functions: that is, you call them, and they return.
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2014-04-18T09:31:13Z pjdelport: So instead of CPS, where continuations are passed around a bit specially, and treated as calls that never return, delimited continuations would just result in "normal" code, where (delimited) continuations can be used anywhere with no restrictions
2014-04-18T09:32:26Z pjdelport: OTOH, for actually implementing delimited continuations, you could probably use a strategy similar to CPS
2014-04-18T09:32:59Z pjdelport: In fact, you can define the delimited continuation operators in terms of call/cc
2014-04-18T09:33:21Z pjdelport: (which is an illuminating exercise)
2014-04-18T09:34:07Z pjdelport: the result is clunky, but it works
2014-04-18T09:35:31Z pyro-: thank you, that's very useful information
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2014-04-18T09:36:39Z pjdelport: so you can always transform code with delimited continuations naively to call/cc and CPS, but it's not necessarily as efficient or clean as something that is more tailored to delimeted continuations
2014-04-18T09:37:42Z pyro-: whereas it is not in general possible to transform call/cc using code to use delimited continuations?
2014-04-18T09:38:56Z pjdelport: It is, by always treating them as being delimited "indefinitely" (in practice, up to the REPL or process or session context, or similar)
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2014-04-18T09:39:45Z pjdelport: The transformation in the other direction is much more of a juggling act.
2014-04-18T09:41:24Z pyro-: i see
2014-04-18T09:41:27Z pyro-: it makes sense
2014-04-18T09:41:42Z pyro-: i find them all difficult to reason about
2014-04-18T09:42:05Z pyro-: i ask becuase i'm trying to learn by experimenting with interpreters
2014-04-18T09:42:31Z pyro-: maybe one day i will make an interpreter that is also useful
2014-04-18T09:42:43Z pyro-: you've been very helpful
2014-04-18T09:42:49Z pyro-: i'll also read those webpages
2014-04-18T09:43:58Z pjdelport: It's been a while since I've played with it, but the basic idea is that, given undelimited continuations (call/cc), you can emulate delimitation by defining your operators so that the resulting "delimited" continuation temporarily captures its surrounding continuation whenever it is invoked, runs its own delimited continuation up to the point where the
2014-04-18T09:43:58Z pjdelport: original delimitation mark was, and than reinvokes the previous continuation that was temporarily stored away.
2014-04-18T09:45:11Z pjdelport: So the result is exactly the same as if you invoked a delimited continuation, and it returned; modulo the circus act under the hood. :)
2014-04-18T09:46:23Z pjdelport: The disadvantage is that such emulated delimited continuations still carry the full cost and state of the underlying undelimited continuations.
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2014-04-18T09:47:33Z pyro-: i will have to think about that for a bit
2014-04-18T09:48:28Z pjdelport: If you're comfortable enough with call/cc, you can look at the Scheme definitions people have of the delimited control operators.
2014-04-18T09:49:38Z pjdelport: http://community.schemewiki.org/?composable-continuations-tutorial
2014-04-18T09:50:37Z pjdelport: Riastradh's implementation of shift/reset: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/shift-reset.scm
2014-04-18T09:55:22Z pjdelport: pyro-: these comments may be interesting, too: http://www.reddit.com/r/scheme/comments/xxyqc/an_argument_against_callcc/c5qm0yd
2014-04-18T09:55:24Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/lf8k4ge
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2014-04-18T10:01:29Z pjdelport: pyro-: maybe http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/html/guide/Continuations.html and http://download.plt-scheme.org/doc/html/more/index.html#(part._.Continuations) are useful too
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2014-04-18T11:51:23Z xyh: hi friends! I am implementing a new language.
2014-04-18T11:51:27Z xyh: I need to implement <symbol> and <string> data types in my language
2014-04-18T11:51:34Z xyh:  how scheme implement them???
2014-04-18T11:52:45Z xyh:  string interning ??? using hash table ???
2014-04-18T11:54:01Z xyh: anyone ??
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2014-04-18T19:00:32Z petrov: hey guys, are there any other GUI IDE's other than DrRacket for scheme?
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2014-04-18T19:43:41Z offby1: rudybot: later tell petrov It's possible that http://hop.inria.fr/ has a GUI
2014-04-18T19:43:41Z rudybot: *offby1: I asked `MemoServ' to forward the message to petrov.
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2014-04-18T20:07:18Z theseb: this is a pedantic question but are expressions also statements?  I thought statements didn't return any values so i don't see how expressions can be statements since that is what distinguishes the two yes?
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2014-04-18T20:09:26Z turbofail: depends on who you ask.  but in C for example, expressions are also statements
2014-04-18T20:10:39Z theseb: ok i can live with that..thanks
2014-04-18T20:10:57Z turbofail: there's no real good reason to even have a distinction between the two, which is why scheme doesn't really
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2014-04-18T20:12:37Z theseb: turbofail: wait..if both C and scheme don't distinguish then i'll be  in a minority if i distinguish..hmm
2014-04-18T20:13:08Z turbofail: C does distinguish them.  not all statements are expressions, but expressions are statements
2014-04-18T20:14:13Z turbofail: that said it's a stupid distinction
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2014-04-18T20:18:31Z pjdelport: theseb: it's not *really* an interesting question by itself; but gets more interesting once you start thinking about related semantics
2014-04-18T20:19:50Z pjdelport: theseb: e.g. because Scheme has variadic continuations, you can reframe "expression" versus "statement" as the arity of an expression's continuation
2014-04-18T20:20:32Z ijp: scheme makes a different distinction: between definitions and expressions
2014-04-18T20:20:55Z pjdelport: IOW, statements have a nullary continuation, while expression continuations have an arity of one or more
2014-04-18T20:21:02Z ijp: pjdelport: you can't really, since in practice "statements" return a value
2014-04-18T20:21:19Z ijp: rudybot: (let ((a 1)) (list (set! a 3)))
2014-04-18T20:21:19Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(#<void>)
2014-04-18T20:21:29Z ijp: that is very common behaviour
2014-04-18T20:21:33Z pjdelport: In practice, many Scheme "statements" return a single undefined value, but this is arguably more of an accident than any intent
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2014-04-18T20:22:03Z pjdelport: You could adjust things so that such statements return no value, instead
2014-04-18T20:22:57Z pjdelport: that would make something like the above an explicit error, because (set! a 3) doesn't return anything, while (list ...) expects a single return value
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2014-04-18T20:23:24Z ijp: "an error" in the sense of "anything can happen", not an exception
2014-04-18T20:23:49Z ijp: even the r6rs didn't change that behaviour for multiple values
2014-04-18T20:24:10Z pjdelport: The reason it's not like that is that Scheme was initially defined just about entirely with unary contituations only; variadic contiuations, values / call-with-values etc. only evolved later
2014-04-18T20:24:19Z pjdelport: So they're a bit bolted-on
2014-04-18T20:25:38Z pjdelport: ijp: I know; I'm talking more about a hypothetical Scheme variation where continuation arity is treated more consistently and uniformly, rather than as an accident most of the time :)
2014-04-18T20:26:00Z pjdelport: It's a useful lens to see the "expression" versus "statement" question through.
2014-04-18T20:26:24Z ijp: going back to my other point, it means you cannot do (list (define a 3))
2014-04-18T20:27:12Z ijp: IMO, it's not clear what the scoping should be for this sort of example, so I don't view it as a problem, but other people may disagree
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2014-04-18T20:29:24Z ijp: interleaving is slightly less problematic than nesting, and many schemes allow it, at least at the top level
2014-04-18T20:30:41Z pjdelport: ijp: Strictly speaking, defines are only specified to be valid at the top level or at the begining of bodies / begin / etc.
2014-04-18T20:30:44Z pjdelport: beginning, even
2014-04-18T20:31:13Z pjdelport: So something like (list (define a 3)) isn't guaranteed to work in general, in regular Scheme
2014-04-18T20:31:22Z ijp: which I said
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2014-04-18T20:31:58Z pjdelport: Right; but in the continuation-arity-consistent variation of the language, it would fail for a different reason, because of the arity mismatch.
2014-04-18T20:32:24Z pjdelport: (There are probably better names for this.)
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2014-04-18T20:33:11Z ijp: you can give any operational interpretation you want to it in a particular implementation, but it doesn't mean it makes sense
2014-04-18T20:33:59Z pjdelport: Treating it as an arity mismatch does make sense, though.
2014-04-18T20:34:43Z ijp: except you get a run time error, and probably a mutation
2014-04-18T20:35:23Z ijp: as opposed to a syntax error
2014-04-18T20:36:43Z pjdelport: ijp: As a type error, you can statically identify a significant class of it, just as with any other type error.
2014-04-18T20:37:07Z ijp: anyway, we are explaining to each other things we already know, so lets leave it there
2014-04-18T20:37:13Z pjdelport: How would it be a syntax error?
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2014-04-18T20:38:31Z ijp: after macro expansion, it is pretty easy to check if a define is at the beginning of a <body> or at the top level
2014-04-18T20:40:41Z pjdelport: Ah, right; I just wasn't sure which sense you meant. (Is there a Scheme implementation that actually does that, at all?)
2014-04-18T20:41:49Z ijp: I would assume all good ones do
2014-04-18T20:42:01Z ijp: rudybot: (list (define foo 'a))
2014-04-18T20:42:01Z rudybot: ijp: error: #<undefined>:1:6: define: not allowed in an expression context <NEWLINE>   in: (define foo (quote a))
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2014-04-18T20:43:07Z pjdelport: ah, I just checked with Chicken quickly
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2014-04-19T00:41:37Z offby1: hi
2014-04-19T00:41:49Z offby1 might as well teach the bot to respond that way
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2014-04-19T00:50:17Z zacts: vim
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2014-04-19T00:52:10Z ijp: rudybot: be polite to guests
2014-04-19T00:52:11Z rudybot: ijp: and from that, you get a website, audio, video, hosts, guests, etc.
2014-04-19T00:53:35Z zacts: oops typo
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2014-04-19T00:57:28Z zacts: ijp: I think offby1 puppets rudybot
2014-04-19T00:57:54Z offby1: less than I used to
2014-04-19T00:58:12Z zacts: sure, we all believe you offby1
2014-04-19T00:58:47Z zacts: :D
2014-04-19T00:58:50Z ijp: zacts: I'm well aware
2014-04-19T00:59:59Z offby1: the novelty wore off, and then of course there was the odor.
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2014-04-20T00:13:44Z MN80: Hi, I have what seems to be a simple question, but since I am a beginner... I have a function that returns a quoted list, the list actually represents a tree with only logical operators and boolean values as nodes. I need to evaluate the list, for eg., if the function returns (not (and #t #t)) I want to get #t. I can't use eval since it is not in our lessons.
2014-04-20T00:23:20Z pjdelport: MN80: you can quite easily define a small evaluation function for such a tree, that only only supports those boolean operations and values
2014-04-20T00:26:22Z MN80: pjdelport: do you mean it is easier to evaluate the tree directly, right now I have written a function that returns a list, like the one I mentioned, from a tree. Also, how would I do that evaluation?
2014-04-20T00:28:39Z pjdelport: MN80: I don't mean using Scheme's eval; I just mean writing your own small recursive function that takes a structure like that as input, and recursively processes it, performing evaluation (that you implement yourself)
2014-04-20T00:29:50Z pjdelport: MN80: Your evaluation function would only need to handle two cases.
2014-04-20T00:30:10Z MN80: pjdelport: I understand, I actually tried, I just can't see how, must something I'm not getting
2014-04-20T00:31:04Z pjdelport: Booleans would evaluate to themselves; pairs would would get constructed to an operator symbol and operand, and would apply the corresponding Scheme function to the evalution of the operand list.
2014-04-20T00:31:16Z pjdelport: MN80: Want to paste the code you have so far?
2014-04-20T00:33:45Z MN80: pjdelport: I could, but I am using a language file (.plt file) specific to the class I am taking, it may not be all understandable
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2014-04-20T00:35:03Z MN80: pjdelport: you made me realize I can there is something I haven't tried yet, brb
2014-04-20T00:35:14Z pjdelport: MN80: No worries; you can still paste it :)
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2014-04-20T00:38:41Z MN80: pjdelport: here is the function that makes the tree: (define (expr->agb L)
2014-04-20T00:38:42Z MN80:   (if (pair? L)
2014-04-20T00:38:44Z MN80:       (ag-noeud (car L) (map expr->agb (cdr L)))
2014-04-20T00:38:46Z MN80:       (ag-noeud L '())))y
2014-04-20T00:38:56Z pjdelport: MN80: rather use http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme
2014-04-20T00:39:48Z pjdelport: (if there's more code)
2014-04-20T00:41:42Z MN80: pjdelport: there is, not sure how to use this from my irc client
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2014-04-20T00:42:26Z pjdelport: MN80: Hmm, seems that link is a bit wonky; but you can just paste it at http://paste.lisp.org/new and paste the resulting link here.
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2014-04-20T00:46:57Z MN80: pjdelport: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142220
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2014-04-20T00:54:18Z MN80: pjdelport: what I linked to is the function that makes a list from a tree. Basically I get back the list I started with.
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2014-04-20T01:01:23Z MN80: pjdelport: Nevermind, I found a solution, thanks for the hint. Also, please don't post a solution if you have one, I am more interested in hints I'd rather learn than copy paste
2014-04-20T01:04:53Z pjdelport: MN80: I can paste a sketch, if you'd like?
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2014-04-20T01:08:17Z pjdelport: MN80: not a solution, but just to illustrate what I meant earlier more concretely: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142221
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2014-04-20T01:09:26Z pjdelport: MN80: That's basically all that an evaluator function is: case analysis and recursion
2014-04-20T01:10:23Z pjdelport: in that example, boolean values are self-evaluating, and pairs are applications.
2014-04-20T01:11:09Z pjdelport: It assumes you have something like get-operator, that maps symbols like 'and, 'or, and 'not to appropriate Scheme implementations
2014-04-20T01:11:32Z pjdelport: (e.g. via na association list, or whatever else)
2014-04-20T01:11:43Z pjdelport: MN80: does that make sense?
2014-04-20T01:12:18Z pjdelport: MN80: Oh, and this assumes you'll call it like (my-eval '(not (and #t #t))), for example
2014-04-20T01:14:12Z MN80: pjdelport: So I can't call it like (my-eval (tree-to-listtree )) where tree to list is a function that returns a quoted list?
2014-04-20T01:14:39Z pjdelport: MN80: no, you can do that too
2014-04-20T01:14:45Z pjdelport: (it's the same as far as Scheme is concerned)
2014-04-20T01:15:20Z pjdelport: Basically, my-eval is a mini-evaluator for a small language
2014-04-20T01:15:28Z pjdelport: in this case, supporting only boolean values and functions
2014-04-20T01:16:08Z pjdelport: Scheme's (eval) is essentially just a more elaborate version of the same thing
2014-04-20T01:17:02Z MN80: pjdelport: well it looks like I'm not supposed to know the boolean? predicate or the apply function, lol
2014-04-20T01:17:33Z pjdelport: MN80: oh, oops, heh
2014-04-20T01:17:51Z MN80: pjdelport: but it helps a lot, thanks much
2014-04-20T01:18:36Z pjdelport: Well, you can trivially implement them; in fact, the next step to expanding the above toy interpreter is probably to split out a my-apply function, instead of just using the built-in apply
2014-04-20T01:19:46Z pjdelport: and boolean? is basically just (or (eq? expr #t) (eq? expr #f))
2014-04-20T01:20:15Z pjdelport: MN80: instead of boolean?, you can probably implement something like is-primitive?, which does the above test
2014-04-20T01:20:34Z pjdelport: and could thus also be extended to return true for other self-quoting values
2014-04-20T01:20:52Z pjdelport: (if the assignment goes in that direction, which i'm guessing it should)
2014-04-20T01:22:43Z MN80: pjdelport: we're just asked to evaluate the tree we build with the tree building function. The next question is to write a function that evaluates a quoted list, which sounds strange since it seems one needs the latter to evaluate a tree, not sure...
2014-04-20T01:24:15Z pjdelport: MN80: This mutual recursion between eval and apply is a very fundamental thing, by the way; that's why you'll see it on the cover of SICP: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/cover.jpg
2014-04-20T01:25:11Z pjdelport: MN80: I'm not entirely sure what the difference between the tree and list is supposed to be, exactly?
2014-04-20T01:26:13Z MN80: pjdelport: me neither
2014-04-20T01:26:57Z pjdelport: MN80: s-expressions are trees of a particular kind, so I'm assuming "tree" refers to a different kind of tree?
2014-04-20T01:27:09Z MN80: the function I posted here makes a tree from a quoted list, that was just the assignment
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2014-04-20T01:28:15Z pjdelport: MN80: How does its result look?
2014-04-20T01:28:25Z MN80: pjdelport: we make tree nodes using the ag-noeud
2014-04-20T01:28:51Z MN80: pjdelport: you mean the drawn tree?
2014-04-20T01:29:12Z pjdelport: MN80: I don't know; that's why I'm asking :)
2014-04-20T01:30:42Z pjdelport: An S-expression (or quoted list) like "(not (and #t #t))" is both a tree and a nested list
2014-04-20T01:30:56Z pjdelport: for various definitions
2014-04-20T01:31:31Z pjdelport: I'm not familiar with what a tree is in the sense of ag-noeud, though.
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2014-04-20T01:32:12Z pjdelport: But generally speaking, your functions like my-eval and my-apply are easy to adapt for any recursive data structure
2014-04-20T01:32:50Z MN80: pjdelport: ag-noeud basically means make-a-node
2014-04-20T01:33:02Z pjdelport: So if you have a custom tree data structure, you can use its accessors instead of car and cdr
2014-04-20T01:33:22Z MN80: pjdelport: I'm trying to get something more clear, I'll send a link
2014-04-20T01:34:09Z MN80: pjdelport: car and cdr work with it only because its children (we call them a foret) are in a list
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2014-04-20T01:40:00Z MN80: pjdelport: here is how we build trees by hand. the last function, ag-affiche just draws it: http://paste.lisp.org/display/142222
2014-04-20T01:40:35Z pjdelport: MN80: is that implemented under the hood as lists, or how?
2014-04-20T01:40:43Z MN80: pjdelport: you can test the code here: https://www-licence.ufr-info-p6.jussieu.fr/lmd/licence/2011/ue/LI101-2011oct/MrScheme/mrscheme.html
2014-04-20T01:40:43Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m32jmdh
2014-04-20T01:41:55Z MN80: pjdelport: I have no idea how it works under the hood... I don't think it is a list because calling car and cdr on a tree (not the list of children, but the tree itself) doesn't work
2014-04-20T01:42:37Z pjdelport: Ah, okay, so it's an opaque structure
2014-04-20T01:42:57Z pjdelport: That's fine, then; I assume the intent is that you just use its accessors to work with it.
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2014-04-20T01:43:04Z MN80: rudybot: thanks
2014-04-20T01:43:04Z rudybot: MN80: thanks
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2014-04-20T01:43:16Z MN80: lol
2014-04-20T01:44:05Z pjdelport: MN80: Anyway, once you have a working evaluation function, it should be trivial to adapt to either trees, lists, or anything similar
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2014-04-20T01:44:38Z pjdelport: You'll proably just need to replace the accessor functions (e.g. using the corresponding tree value and child accessors instead of car and cdr)
2014-04-20T01:46:39Z MN80: pjdelport: I think so
2014-04-20T01:47:01Z MN80: pjdelport: I just have to write that function with the tools I'm alowed to use ;)
2014-04-20T01:47:16Z MN80: pjdelport: thanks for your help man
2014-04-20T01:47:30Z pjdelport: MN80: No problem; shout if you're stuck.
2014-04-20T01:47:31Z pjdelport: :)
2014-04-20T01:47:54Z MN80: pjdelport: cool, cheers:)
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2014-04-20T02:12:53Z MN80: pjdelport: okay, I apparently had skipped something... there are three ways trees are made, s-expressions, vectors or both, it seems the ones I am working with are made with vectors... some more reading to do :)
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2014-04-20T02:13:18Z pjdelport: oh, okay
2014-04-20T02:13:51Z pjdelport: MN80: If you're not familiar with vectors, they're basically like flat arrays from various other languages
2014-04-20T02:13:57Z pjdelport: (as opposed to linked lists)
2014-04-20T02:14:28Z pjdelport: it can make sense to store a tree node's child list as a vector, if you want random access
2014-04-20T02:17:01Z MN80: pjdelport: cool, I'm going to read that section I either misread or somehow missed, hopefully all the answers are in there. Thanks again, cheers!
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2014-04-20T06:51:28Z zacts: lo
2014-04-20T06:52:12Z zacts: anyone around to chat about scheme stuff?
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2014-04-20T06:58:16Z Riastradh: What's up?
2014-04-20T07:02:34Z zacts: I'm trying to grok data abstraction
2014-04-20T07:02:51Z zacts: in a practical sense
2014-04-20T07:03:37Z zacts: I feel I understand the concept of data abstraction, similar to being able to say 'hello' in another spoken language, but not really being able to have a conversation.
2014-04-20T07:04:03Z zacts: I'm currently working on the 'symbolic manipulation of polynomials'
2014-04-20T07:06:07Z pjdelport: zacts: Where does it get fuzzy?
2014-04-20T07:07:01Z zacts: heh, that's kind of hilarious actually, because data abstraction inherently makes data fuzzy. :D but, let's see..
2014-04-20T07:07:36Z pjdelport: It *shouldn't* make data fuzzy. :)
2014-04-20T07:08:26Z pjdelport: If anything, it should put the data's properties in sharper focus (by hiding irrelevant details and fuzziness).
2014-04-20T07:10:48Z zacts: hm.. just a sec. I'm trying to form some specific questions, my understanding is a bit fuzzy.
2014-04-20T07:11:08Z zacts: so data abstraction represents data with behaviors
2014-04-20T07:11:29Z zacts: that's the definition of it, and then you can implement those behaviors any way that you want
2014-04-20T07:11:36Z zacts: it separates use from representation
2014-04-20T07:12:23Z zacts: so you can define procedures that use the selectors and constructors before you actually implement their definitions, thus defining the data structures.
2014-04-20T07:12:39Z pjdelport: Right.
2014-04-20T07:12:56Z zacts: ok, so how is this useful in practical code?
2014-04-20T07:13:15Z Riastradh: Here are a couple different representations of polynomials:
2014-04-20T07:14:15Z Riastradh: 1. Given some representation of elements of a ring R, represent the polynomial a_0 + a_1 x + a_2 x^2 + ... + a_n x^n by (list a_0 a_1 a_2 ... a_n).
2014-04-20T07:15:25Z Riastradh: 2. If R = Z/2Z, represent the polynomial a_0 + a_1 x + a_2 x^2 + ... + a_n x^n by (+ a_0 (* a_1 2) (* a_2 4) ... (* a_n (expt 2 (+ n 1)))).
2014-04-20T07:16:13Z Riastradh: These representations both work: you can extract from them the coefficients, you can evaluate the polynomials, you can implement addition, subtraction, multiplication, &c., of polynomials, and so on.
2014-04-20T07:16:35Z pjdelport: zacts: It's useful because it allows you to combine 1 consumer with N implementations of an ADT, instead of having to write N consumers, all almost the same.
2014-04-20T07:16:51Z Riastradh: The first one is more general: it works for any ring R whose elements you can represent explicitly (and usually for which you have some way to distinguish zero from nonzero elements).
2014-04-20T07:18:01Z pjdelport: zacts: Scheme's pairs, lists, vector, etc. are all really ADTs, and the existence of that abstraction is what allows you to write Scheme code that uses them uniformly across all implementations.
2014-04-20T07:18:07Z pjdelport: (for example)
2014-04-20T07:18:07Z Riastradh: The second is limited to (Z/2Z)[x], but is usually much, much faster, to the point that you will find that critical infrastructure all over the world does polynomial computations in that representation at line rate on the internet, in radio transceivers, &c.
2014-04-20T07:19:37Z zacts: oh, so kind of like how a kernel abstracts hardware, and implements the illusion of a filesystem, and code that uses that file system can work on any hardware platform.
2014-04-20T07:19:48Z zacts: you are doing that with data instead.
2014-04-20T07:20:04Z Riastradh: But if you need to do a computation involving polynomials in Scheme, you can write it in terms of procedures poly+, poly*, poly-eval, &c., and it will work no matter what representation you use internally.
2014-04-20T07:20:10Z Riastradh: Sure.
2014-04-20T07:20:28Z zacts: I think I had my first aha moment!
2014-04-20T07:20:36Z pjdelport: zacts: Indeed, you can consider files and filesystems to be an abstract data type.
2014-04-20T07:21:44Z zacts: ok, so..
2014-04-20T07:22:02Z zacts: I can have code that uses another API, say a network API of some sort
2014-04-20T07:22:05Z pjdelport: (With various layers to the abstraction; e.g. the POSIX API, or various things under or on top of it)
2014-04-20T07:22:18Z zacts: and I can separate the use of that API, with the representation
2014-04-20T07:22:32Z zacts: so if the net API changes, my program can still work?
2014-04-20T07:22:47Z zacts: I guess I'm wrapping one api around another
2014-04-20T07:24:21Z zacts: like let's say I'm writing an irc bot with scheme.
2014-04-20T07:24:22Z pjdelport: Right; although there's quite a wide spectrum between ADTs and APIs.
2014-04-20T07:24:42Z zacts: oh
2014-04-20T07:25:14Z pjdelport: At some level, it's all just about interfaces, but usually talking about an ADT connotes a certain type of interface (to some data structure), whereas talking about an API usually connotes something more behavioral / functional.
2014-04-20T07:25:25Z zacts: oh I see
2014-04-20T07:32:00Z zacts: so I'm able to work at the level of ideas and concepts instead of how it all works, and then later implement how it works.
2014-04-20T07:32:34Z zacts: but know that, if the interface contract remains and is implemented correctly, the rest of my program will work
2014-04-20T07:32:56Z zacts: so it allows you to more easily create large systems that work correctly
2014-04-20T07:33:07Z pjdelport: Basically, yes (but the devil is often in the details of defining the interface contract :)
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2014-04-20T07:34:05Z zacts: how do you implement all of this without having a really slow program?
2014-04-20T07:34:21Z pjdelport: Why would it be slow?
2014-04-20T07:35:00Z zacts: it seems that there could be a cumulative slowness from all of the abstraction layers.
2014-04-20T07:35:01Z pjdelport: An ADT can be as lightweight as just naming things right.
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2014-04-20T07:37:02Z zacts: ok
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2014-04-20T07:38:15Z zacts: I guess at this point I shouldn't be too concerned with speed. If it's really an issue I just find the spots that are slowest, and fix those later after my abstractions and interfaces are designed.
2014-04-20T07:39:38Z pjdelport: It really depends; sometimes, abstractions carry unavoidable cost; other times, the right data abstractions actually allow dramatic speed improvements that wouldn't be conceivable otherwise
2014-04-20T07:40:24Z pjdelport: Consider linear algebra libraries: they expose a relatively simple ADT interface for working with things like matrices.
2014-04-20T07:41:00Z pjdelport: But can implement dramatic optimizations under the hood, making all the code that uses them faster.
2014-04-20T07:41:18Z pjdelport: Without the code having to know about the details of which clever algorithms are used where, or whatever.
2014-04-20T07:41:49Z zacts: I think I'm starting to see the point of data abstraction.
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2014-04-20T07:43:09Z pjdelport: Rather think of data abstraction as a tool for shaping code: at the end of the day, it can shape code to be faster or slower.
2014-04-20T07:43:32Z pjdelport: It doesn't intrinsically shape things to be faster or slower, though.
2014-04-20T07:43:53Z pjdelport: (that's more a property of the abstraction's implementation.)
2014-04-20T07:45:04Z pjdelport: zacts: So to get back to the original point, all it comes down to at the end of the day is about being able to work with N different implementations of an ADT as if they were one.
2014-04-20T07:46:33Z pjdelport: Even the most basic things: every Scheme implements things like symbols, pairs, lists, and vectors differently under the hood, but by treating them as an ADT you don't have to worry about the differences.
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2014-04-20T07:46:43Z zacts: oh, cool
2014-04-20T07:47:34Z pjdelport: In fact, you probably have a pretty strict and well-defined mental conception of what it means to be a symbol, pair, list, and vector, right?
2014-04-20T07:47:48Z zacts: yeah
2014-04-20T07:48:13Z pjdelport: One that's not tied to any given Scheme implementation, or C library, or code generator, or etc.
2014-04-20T07:48:18Z zacts: it kind of reminds me of plato's theory of forms
2014-04-20T07:48:51Z zacts: :-)
2014-04-20T07:49:00Z zacts: I see what you mean now
2014-04-20T07:49:03Z pjdelport: That's what I meant with ADTs making things less fuzzy, instead of more: it's precisely because they're ADTs that you can think about them in focus.
2014-04-20T07:49:26Z zacts: cool
2014-04-20T07:49:37Z pjdelport: If they weren't, your thoughts would have to navigate a fuzzy swamp of implementation details, along with the common behavior.
2014-04-20T07:52:05Z pjdelport: Also, like Riastradh's example shows, ADTs can let you think more clearly about what seemingly disparate things have in common.
2014-04-20T07:53:28Z pjdelport: Once you define an ADT that captures some common subset of two or more different kinds of data, you suddenly gain the ability to write code that works across all those different kinds of data, where it couldn't before.
2014-04-20T07:54:22Z zacts: oh that's cool
2014-04-20T07:56:23Z pjdelport: So ADTs can work as an generalizing amplifier for your code.
2014-04-20T07:56:46Z zacts: nice
2014-04-20T07:57:22Z pjdelport: You can write Scheme code that uses arithmetic operations, and it will work across all the types in the number tower for free.
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2014-04-20T07:57:37Z pjdelport: (where it makes sense, anyway)
2014-04-20T07:58:58Z zacts: one idea I have is a system that implements the definitions of selectors and constructors on its own depending on the situation.
2014-04-20T07:59:14Z zacts: it does this on it's own
2014-04-20T07:59:16Z zacts: its
2014-04-20T07:59:26Z pjdelport: Quite a few systems do that. :)
2014-04-20T08:01:11Z zacts: wow, so you can really use code to help design systems for you.
2014-04-20T08:01:32Z zacts: that's totally awesome
2014-04-20T08:02:17Z zacts: like something that optimizes recursive recursion as iterative recursion
2014-04-20T08:02:37Z pjdelport: tail-call optimization?
2014-04-20T08:02:38Z zacts: recursive processes as iterative processes rather
2014-04-20T08:03:11Z zacts: yeah, but it takes a tree recursive fact on top, and implements it as an iterative version underneath
2014-04-20T08:03:50Z zacts: I see how this could be used with code generation and optimizations
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2014-04-20T08:04:30Z zacts: and things like google translate
2014-04-20T08:05:25Z zacts: you write (define fact (n) (* n (fact (- n 1))))
2014-04-20T08:05:34Z zacts: and it implements it as an iterative process underneath
2014-04-20T08:06:17Z pjdelport: That's possible, but it's not really due to ADTs.
2014-04-20T08:06:25Z pjdelport: Different kind of thing.
2014-04-20T08:07:57Z zacts: hm.. ok. :-)
2014-04-20T08:08:35Z zacts: sorry my mind was kind of wandering.
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2014-04-20T08:09:43Z pjdelport: zacts: A common example would be something like type-specialized vectors.
2014-04-20T08:10:43Z pjdelport: A Scheme vector can store anything, but if you determine at runtime (or compile time) that a vector is used only for ints, for example, you can switch its representation to that.
2014-04-20T08:11:05Z zacts: oh cool, so it optimizes on the spot
2014-04-20T08:11:08Z pjdelport: So that it's more compact, runs faster, can omit unneeded safety checks, etc.
2014-04-20T08:12:05Z pjdelport: That's just scratching the surface; sophisticated dynamic language implementations do a lot more than that.
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2014-04-20T08:57:47Z acroback: In SICP video lectures, Prof Sussman often passes variable by incrementing it. e.g (+ a (samefunction (1+ a) b)). Scheme gives me error saying that object 3 is not applicable, if a is 2 and b is 5. I understand that this is because of (3), but then how do I pass it without a () around a result like in this case?
2014-04-20T09:00:32Z oleo: ?
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2014-04-20T09:01:28Z oleo: (+ a (+ (1+ a) b)) -> (+ a (+ (1+ 2) 7)) -> (+ a (+ 3 7)) -> (+ 2 10) -> 12
2014-04-20T09:03:49Z acroback: oleo, http://pastebin.com/QmM4L2F9
2014-04-20T09:04:39Z pjdelport: acroback: if you want <expr>, just say <expr> instead of (<expr>)
2014-04-20T09:05:22Z pjdelport: acroback: do you want (range-sum (+ 1 a) b) ?
2014-04-20T09:07:05Z acroback: Yes that what I want, increment a by 1 and pass it to range-sum procedure as first parameter, and b as second parameter.
2014-04-20T09:07:56Z acroback: pjdelport, noob alert: New to scheme here.
2014-04-20T09:09:48Z oleo: (range-sum ((1+ a) b).....-> (range-sum (1+ a) b)....
2014-04-20T09:10:25Z oleo: you gave it a list instead of 2 args ?
2014-04-20T09:11:03Z oleo: you give the args naked......
2014-04-20T09:11:18Z oleo: not enclosed in parens again....
2014-04-20T09:16:47Z acroback: oleo, thanks for pointing that. Got it. Can't get my head out of C programming ways :(.
2014-04-20T09:18:14Z oleo: you will, give yourself time....
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2014-04-20T14:25:57Z sethalves: is the latex source for r7rs-small.pdf available, anyplace?
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2014-04-20T19:22:19Z jcowan: what ho
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2014-04-20T19:47:10Z wingo: yo
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2014-04-20T19:53:22Z jcowan: wingo: I have a question about Guile Elisp (I'm using 2.0.9)
2014-04-20T19:54:13Z jcowan: Why are lists created in Elisp mode terminated with Scheme () instead of #nil?
2014-04-20T19:56:03Z wingo: how did you create the list?
2014-04-20T19:56:23Z wingo: usually they should be terminated with #nil if created from elisp
2014-04-20T19:56:32Z jcowan: I typed (list 1 2 3) from the REPL in elisp mode.
2014-04-20T19:56:40Z wingo investigates
2014-04-20T19:56:54Z jcowan: Come to think of it, though, maybe 'list' just returns the rest arguments.
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2014-04-20T19:57:56Z wingo: indeed
2014-04-20T19:58:22Z nisstyre: wingo: yes indeed
2014-04-20T19:58:42Z wingo: :)
2014-04-20T19:59:10Z wingo: jcowan: yeah it's a good question; the answer is essentially accidental.
2014-04-20T19:59:39Z wingo: list can get called as a primitive, and in that case it's the same primitive that scheme uses
2014-04-20T19:59:47Z wingo: so rest args terminated by '()
2014-04-20T20:00:16Z wingo: or it can get optimized, as in the case of (list 1 2 3) -- which compiles to (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 '())))
2014-04-20T20:00:46Z wingo: either way it seems that elisp is using scheme's primitive
2014-04-20T20:00:57Z wingo: i guess that's the reason
2014-04-20T20:01:23Z wingo: i wonder if we shouldn't provide a way to bind rest args that terminates with #nil...
2014-04-20T20:02:47Z jcowan: I tried using read and mapcar too, but in both cases Guile says they aren't defined.
2014-04-20T20:05:44Z wingo: that's odd
2014-04-20T20:06:46Z wingo: boot.el certainly seems to define it, i wonder what the deal is
2014-04-20T20:07:11Z wingo: mapcar i mean
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2014-04-20T20:20:57Z oleo: any racketteers in here ?
2014-04-20T20:21:16Z jcowan: wingo:
2014-04-20T20:21:18Z jcowan: elisp@(guile-user) [2]> (mapcar (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) (list 1 2 3))
2014-04-20T20:21:18Z jcowan: <unnamed port>:11:1: In procedure #<procedure 17900e0 at <current input>:11:1 ()>:
2014-04-20T20:21:19Z jcowan: <unnamed port>:11:1: In procedure module-lookup: Unbound variable: mapcar
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2014-04-20T20:21:22Z oleo: this one works (let* ([ob (square 30)] [c1 (colorize ob "red")] [c2 (colorize ob "black")]) (checker c1 c2))
2014-04-20T20:21:37Z oleo: this one fails
2014-04-20T20:21:42Z oleo: (checker (let* ([ob (square 10)]
2014-04-20T20:21:42Z oleo:                  [c1 (colorize ob "red")]
2014-04-20T20:21:42Z oleo:                  [c2 (colorize ob "black")])
2014-04-20T20:21:42Z oleo:              (values c1 c2)))
2014-04-20T20:21:46Z oleo: why ?
2014-04-20T20:22:21Z jcowan: Giving a procedure an argument that has multiple values does not mean the procedure is passed those values.
2014-04-20T20:22:30Z jcowan: What happens is implementation-dependent.
2014-04-20T20:22:35Z oleo: ah
2014-04-20T20:22:47Z jcowan: In this case, c2 is probably being discarded.
2014-04-20T20:23:03Z oleo: well it received 2, but expected 1 it tells me
2014-04-20T20:23:15Z oleo: tho it's defined like (define (checker p1 p2).....
2014-04-20T20:23:20Z jcowan: To do that you need to say "(call-with-values (lambda () (let* ...) checker)"
2014-04-20T20:23:25Z oleo: so it should actually expect 2......
2014-04-20T20:23:30Z oleo: oh
2014-04-20T20:23:33Z jcowan: DId you misread the error?  Should say "Received 1 expected 2"
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2014-04-20T20:23:59Z oleo: no it says received: 2, expected:1
2014-04-20T20:24:05Z oleo: that's confusing too....
2014-04-20T20:24:11Z jcowan: It is.  That's probably a bug.
2014-04-20T20:24:28Z jcowan: Wiat, perhaps it means "received 2 values, expected 1 value"
2014-04-20T20:24:36Z jcowan: (for the first argument)
2014-04-20T20:24:49Z oleo: hmmmm
2014-04-20T20:25:24Z jcowan: In any case, (apply checker (let* ... (list c1 c2))) is probably better
2014-04-20T20:25:29Z oleo: so the desctructuring is gone awry......
2014-04-20T20:25:48Z oleo: allright...thank you
2014-04-20T20:25:55Z jcowan: No, it's doing what it should.  Consider (+ (values 1 2)).  That does not and should not return 3.
2014-04-20T20:27:43Z oleo: jep you right
2014-04-20T20:28:04Z oleo: (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2)) +) -> 3
2014-04-20T20:29:12Z oleo: ok resolved, the other works now too
2014-04-20T20:29:54Z jcowan: At a guess, the apply version is probably slightly more efficient than the call-with-values version
2014-04-20T20:31:41Z oleo: the apply version does not work with (values...for the same reason as above....
2014-04-20T20:32:02Z oleo: (apply + (values 1 2)) -> barf!
2014-04-20T20:32:14Z Riastradh: (apply + (list 1 2))
2014-04-20T20:33:58Z oleo: allright got it
2014-04-20T20:39:36Z nisstyre: > (+ (+) 1)
2014-04-20T20:39:49Z nisstyre: rudybot: (+ (+) 1)
2014-04-20T20:39:49Z jcowan: Riastradh: Do you think there would be any merit to a multiple-producer form of call-with-values, like (call-with-values (this) (that) (tother) receiver)?
2014-04-20T20:39:50Z rudybot: nisstyre: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-20T20:39:50Z rudybot: nisstyre: ; Value: 1
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2014-04-20T20:45:48Z Riastradh: Nothing leaps to mind.  Why would you want that?
2014-04-20T20:46:38Z jcowan: Common Lisp provides it as MULTIPLE-VALUE-CALL.
2014-04-20T20:46:51Z jcowan: I'm not sure what the justification was there (or in Zetalisp, or wherever).
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2014-04-20T20:49:48Z Riastradh: I have no idea either.  Sounds like a bad idea to me.
2014-04-20T20:49:50Z jcowan: I see: MV-CALL is really MV-FUNCALL
2014-04-20T20:49:58Z jcowan: it's the primitive calling operator, as FUNCALL is.
2014-04-20T20:50:14Z jcowan: (multiple-value-call receiver source ...)
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2014-04-20T20:53:59Z jcowan: MV-PROG1 is also primitive, though not obvious why
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2014-04-20T20:57:01Z Riastradh: Probably because PROG1 doesn't do multiple values to begin with.
2014-04-20T20:57:13Z Riastradh: I think most manifestations of BEGIN0 do.
2014-04-20T20:57:49Z oleo: jup, (multiple-value-call '+ (values 1 2)) -> 3
2014-04-20T20:57:52Z oleo: in sbcl
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2014-04-20T21:07:38Z jcowan: Yeah, I guess implementing mv-prog1 as a macro (like the other mv-* forms) is too messy.
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2014-04-20T21:07:57Z jcowan: alas for google code search
2014-04-20T21:08:06Z jcowan: I have not been able to find uses of mv-call in anger anywhere.
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2014-04-20T21:17:12Z Riastradh: MV-PROG1 is easy as a macro: (CALL-WITH-VALUES (LAMBDA () <form1>) (LAMBDA V <form2> ... (APPLY VALUES V)))
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2014-04-20T22:37:48Z sigjuice: SICP exercise 2.84 has me a bit confused.  It says implement apply-generic using raise.  But the previous exercise said implement raise using apply-generic.  I am unable to see past the circular logic.
2014-04-20T22:38:24Z ijp: sigjuice: consider them completely separate exercises, rather than one built on the other
2014-04-20T22:39:22Z ijp: raise and apply-generic are able to express one another, though as you say, not at the same time
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2014-04-20T22:44:48Z sigjuice: I am not sure I follow.  Am I supposed to write apply-generic using raise, but without having a concrete raise implementation?
2014-04-20T22:45:35Z ijp: I'd need to doublecheck the exercise, but I believe so
2014-04-20T22:46:37Z sigjuice: but then I would have no way to test my apply-generic procedure
2014-04-20T22:49:18Z ijp: hmm, reading the exercise, it seems you should be using the raise from the previous exercise
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2014-04-20T22:50:35Z ijp: but to answer your previous concern, all you would have done is (define apply-generic2 apply-generic) <implement raise using apply-generic2> <implement apply-generic using raise>
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2014-04-20T22:58:36Z ijp: sigjuice: please ignore the first two things I had said to you
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2014-04-20T22:59:15Z ijp: I don't think there is a circularity problem here
2014-04-20T22:59:58Z ijp: sigjuice: the problem would occur if raising caused apply generic to raise again
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2014-04-20T23:00:40Z ijp: the implicity raising only happens on procedures with multiple arguments
2014-04-20T23:01:03Z ijp: however, the raise generic will only ever get called with one
2014-04-20T23:01:49Z ijp: sigjuice: does that make sense to you?
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2014-04-20T23:05:30Z ijp: but even with a multi argument raise, you should be fine
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2014-04-20T23:05:56Z ijp: because you never raise all the arguments, it will bottom out eventually
2014-04-20T23:08:45Z sigjuice: Makes sense.  This also means raise must be implemented in terms of the apply-generic procedure from exercise 2.82.
2014-04-20T23:09:23Z ijp: sure
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2014-04-20T23:11:44Z rudybot bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot
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2014-04-20T23:12:13Z rudybot bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot
2014-04-20T23:14:11Z ijp: rudybot: don't bow too deep, you don't want to hurt your back
2014-04-20T23:14:12Z rudybot: ijp: Cheap shot off the port bow!
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2014-04-20T23:16:21Z iron_houzi: Just wondering if cons-cells are implemented as they are modelled in scheme: linked lists, or is the actual implementation using resizeable C-arrays under the hood?
2014-04-20T23:16:37Z iron_houzi: ..sorry, modelled in SICP I mean..
2014-04-20T23:16:54Z ijp: I've never heard of anyone doing the latter, but I suppose it is possible
2014-04-20T23:18:27Z iron_houzi: ijp: Is there any reason to think that linked lists might lend itself better for implementing memory storage in functional languages?
2014-04-20T23:18:39Z ijp: resizables arrays aren't very nice for sharing
2014-04-20T23:19:01Z sigjuice: ijp: thanks for your help!
2014-04-20T23:19:05Z m4burns: iron_houzi: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/plt-scheme/kIAE5LuM-LM
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2014-04-20T23:19:20Z ijp: rudybot: (define l1 (list 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10))
2014-04-20T23:19:20Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-20T23:19:24Z ijp: rudybot:  (define l2 (cons* 'a 'b 'c 'd (drop 4 l1)))
2014-04-20T23:19:24Z rudybot: ijp: error: cons*: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-04-20T23:19:30Z ijp: typical
2014-04-20T23:19:42Z ijp: rudybot: (require srfi/1)
2014-04-20T23:19:43Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-20T23:19:45Z ijp: rudybot:  (define l2 (cons* 'a 'b 'c 'd (drop 4 l1)))
2014-04-20T23:19:45Z rudybot: ijp: error: drop: contract violation <NEWLINE>   expected: exact-nonnegative-integer? <NEWLINE>   given: '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) <NEWLINE>   argument position: 2nd <NEWLINE>   other arguments...: <NEWLINE>    4
2014-04-20T23:19:53Z ijp: rudybot:  (define l2 (cons* 'a 'b 'c 'd (drop l1 4)))
2014-04-20T23:19:53Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-20T23:20:13Z ijp: iron_houzi: the above lists l1 and l2 share a tail
2014-04-20T23:20:22Z iron_houzi: OK
2014-04-20T23:20:42Z ijp: rudybot:  (eqv? (drop l1 4) (drop l2 4))
2014-04-20T23:20:43Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #t
2014-04-20T23:23:14Z iron_houzi: Cool
2014-04-20T23:24:23Z iron_houzi: ijp: Are there commen uses for sharing a tail, or is this example somewhat contrived?
2014-04-20T23:26:06Z ijp: sharing happens everywhere
2014-04-20T23:26:14Z ijp: but that example was contrived
2014-04-20T23:28:36Z ijp: when you are coding in a functional manner, it just arises naturally, and saves work
2014-04-20T23:29:02Z ijp: if you are coding imperatively, on the other hand, sharing is evil, and will cause you no end of problems
2014-04-20T23:29:22Z iron_houzi: ijp: OK. It's still very cool. I just thought I'd ask, in case there was some commonly known way to solve a specific problem .. always good to ask in case I'm missing out on something :)
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2014-04-21T02:17:01Z dpwright: I am trying to use MIT-Scheme's *parser-language and struggling with defining *parser macros
2014-04-21T02:17:18Z dpwright: there seems to be very little in the way of examples of it in use on the internet
2014-04-21T02:17:47Z dpwright: does anybody have any experience with using them who might be able to help figure it out?
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2014-04-21T02:18:29Z ijp: You'll have more luck on the mailing list, I think
2014-04-21T02:19:07Z dpwright: ijp: OK, thanks, I'll give that a shot
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2014-04-21T02:33:38Z Riastradh: dpwright, what's up?
2014-04-21T02:34:30Z Riastradh: (Bear in mind *parser expresses only dumb recursive descent parsers, so it has sharp edges, nonguarantees of termination, undetectable ambiguity, &c.)
2014-04-21T02:34:32Z dpwright: riastradh, well, I'm trying to use "define-*parser-macro" to create a new parser macro, but when I try to use it I get "unknown parser expression"
2014-04-21T02:35:26Z Riastradh: ...The macro system is also broken, so you will have to run that before you compile the code that uses it.  Usually the way to do this is to split it into two files, say parser-macros.scm and parser.scm, and to load parser-macros.scm before you compile parser.scm.
2014-04-21T02:35:53Z dpwright: ah
2014-04-21T02:36:02Z dpwright: that might be the problem then
2014-04-21T02:36:28Z dpwright: this is all in one file
2014-04-21T02:40:24Z dpwright: ah, actually maybe it's an issue with my environment
2014-04-21T02:40:37Z dpwright:  /the environment I'm defining these macros in
2014-04-21T02:41:30Z dpwright: the thing I didn't mention, which complicates matters, is that I'm writing this macro in a literate scheme file which I load using a loader I wrote, which just extracts scheme blocks from a markdown file and reads and evals them
2014-04-21T02:41:42Z dpwright: it's all pretty naively done
2014-04-21T02:42:02Z dpwright: so possibly when doing this parser macro stuff I've hit an edge case where that doesn't work
2014-04-21T02:42:18Z Riastradh: You can use xml/compile.scm, from MIT Scheme's source tree, as an example of how to do this.
2014-04-21T02:42:28Z dpwright: if I extract the parser macro and the things that use it to a separate, plain .scm file, I can load that file without an error
2014-04-21T02:42:33Z dpwright: (at the repl)
2014-04-21T02:42:43Z Riastradh: (All of this bookkeeping crap you have to do is completely wrong.)
2014-04-21T02:43:04Z dpwright: Yeah, I have xml/compile.scm open in a tab here
2014-04-21T02:43:10Z dpwright: it looks pretty similar to what I've done though
2014-04-21T02:44:45Z Riastradh: Post your code somewhere and I can take a look tomorrow.
2014-04-21T02:44:57Z dpwright: https://github.com/dpwright/lp.scm lp.scm, in this repository, shows how I'm loading the file, and render.scm.md is the file I'm loading (but my parser macros stuff isn't in there yet)
2014-04-21T02:44:59Z dpwright: ok
2014-04-21T02:45:20Z dpwright: I'll just push my changes to render.scm.md for now...
2014-04-21T02:48:49Z dpwright: Riastradh: Pushed.  The code in question is here: https://github.com/dpwright/lp.scm/blob/master/render.scm.md#an-aside-generalising-the-parse-latex-block-parser
2014-04-21T02:48:49Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kro5fof
2014-04-21T02:49:21Z Riastradh: Yeah, you need to put the DEFINE-*PARSER-MACRO somewhere it will be evaluated before you compile the following code.
2014-04-21T02:50:15Z dpwright: Riastradh: ...You're right!
2014-04-21T02:50:49Z dpwright: If I just move it out of the definition of lp/render and define it beforehand it works
2014-04-21T02:51:12Z dpwright: thanks!
2014-04-21T02:52:11Z dpwright: by the way, bit of a simple question but, is there an easy way to load a file from the same directory as the current file? If I just use "load" it's relative to the current working directory
2014-04-21T02:54:46Z Riastradh: (with-working-directory-pathname (directory-pathname (current-load-pathname)) (lambda () (load "xyz")))
2014-04-21T02:55:11Z Riastradh: (All of this is completely wrong and Someone^TM needs to fix it to be more sensible...)
2014-04-21T02:55:14Z Riastradh: 'Night!
2014-04-21T02:55:17Z Riastradh: *poof*
2014-04-21T02:55:22Z dpwright: Riastradh: Thanks for your help! :-D
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2014-04-21T10:04:54Z zacts: lo
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2014-04-21T10:35:49Z zacts: I really wish scheme had more libraries.
2014-04-21T10:35:57Z zacts: I mean scheme is such a great language
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2014-04-21T10:37:50Z pjdelport: write one!
2014-04-21T10:38:29Z zacts: pjdelport: maybe once I get through SICP I'll write an egg
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2014-04-21T10:38:55Z zacts: well I guess I could do this while I'm learning SICP also..
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2014-04-21T10:48:31Z zacts: so I'm kind of interested in the history of the (scheme) AI community
2014-04-21T10:48:44Z zacts: what happened at MIT, is it still active in any way?
2014-04-21T10:50:25Z ijp: the AI lab still exists in some form as CSAIL
2014-04-21T10:50:36Z zacts: ijp: is it AI or machine learning?
2014-04-21T10:53:02Z ijp: machine learning traditionally falls in the category of AI
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2014-04-21T10:55:43Z zacts: cool
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2014-04-21T11:52:42Z pjb: zacts: read the AILabs Memos.
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2014-04-21T12:14:49Z zacts: ok
2014-04-21T12:15:25Z zacts: there are so many memos, are any still relevant today?
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2014-04-21T12:21:58Z zacts: brb
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2014-04-21T12:29:01Z pjb: I thought you were interested in history… ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications
2014-04-21T12:30:12Z zacts: pjb: yes both history and research
2014-04-21T12:30:31Z zacts: you have me curious now about the research and if any of it is still relevant. :-)
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2014-04-21T12:38:47Z pjb: For one thing, the series continue till today.
2014-04-21T12:39:07Z pjb: For another, nobody has ever invented a better language than Lisp, so anything since 1959 is still relevant.
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2014-04-21T12:39:27Z pjb: And for the record, we still don't have any Artificial Intelligence.
2014-04-21T12:39:46Z zacts: cool
2014-04-21T12:39:57Z pjdelport: zacts: If you're interested in history, some time ago I started transcribing the https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lambda_Papers
2014-04-21T12:41:18Z pjdelport: the original Scheme paper (AIM-349) is transcribed, but other than that, Lambda: The Ultimate Imperative (AIM-353) is just started
2014-04-21T12:41:33Z ijp: oh, you're that guy
2014-04-21T12:41:35Z zacts: oh nice!
2014-04-21T12:41:37Z pjb: There's also a lot of knowledge and knowhow that is stored in those old papers, that hasn't been embedded in modern systems.   For example, we get the WIMP interfaces from Smalltalk, but most of the stuff from lisp machines or systems like Interlisp are mostly lost (despite painful efforts by emacs).
2014-04-21T12:41:45Z pjdelport: zacts: You can always jump in and help proofread, and/or transcribe. :)
2014-04-21T12:42:20Z zacts: cool
2014-04-21T12:43:11Z pjb: pjdelport: I've got AIM-8 transcribed here: https://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/aim-8/index.html
2014-04-21T12:43:11Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/cykyzqd
2014-04-21T12:43:27Z zacts: this will make grepping through all of the papers simpler
2014-04-21T12:43:31Z pjb: and flpl here: https://www.informatimago.com/articles/flpl/index.html
2014-04-21T12:43:49Z pjdelport: pjb: oh, nice
2014-04-21T12:44:18Z zacts: I like the XP. Pretty Lisp Printer paper
2014-04-21T12:45:18Z pjdelport: pjb: Do you have any idea what the licensing situation of that is?
2014-04-21T12:45:31Z zacts: but yeah, I'll see if I can help with transcribing any of the articles that catch my eye
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2014-04-21T12:45:57Z zacts: oh I see
2014-04-21T12:46:05Z zacts: the lambda papers
2014-04-21T12:46:35Z zacts: :-)
2014-04-21T12:47:02Z pjdelport: zacts: it's pretty easy to dive in: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Index:Scheme_-_An_interpreter_for_extended_lambda_calculus.djvu
2014-04-21T12:47:02Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/m82wukg
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2014-04-21T12:50:05Z pjb: pjdelport: AFAIK, they're in the public domain. In any case, you should ask to the MIT AI Lab. CSAIL  http://publications.csail.mit.edu
2014-04-21T12:50:58Z zacts: nice
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2014-04-21T13:08:55Z pjdelport: pjb: I'm making a note of those. :)
2014-04-21T13:10:18Z pjdelport: I can't pursue it right now, but if I get time, it would be nice to format those transcriptions for WikiSource (if that's cool with you)
2014-04-21T13:10:28Z pjb: Of course.
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2014-04-21T13:23:17Z zacts: I really like the Guy Steele Jr. talk: Growing a Programming Language
2014-04-21T13:24:10Z Iceland_jack: It's an excellent talk
2014-04-21T13:24:15Z Iceland_jack: like most of Steele's
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2014-04-21T13:47:32Z zacts: pjb: what is your favorite lisp dialect / implementation?
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2014-04-21T13:53:12Z pjb: Common Lisp
2014-04-21T13:54:11Z zacts: why common lisp? is it due to it's libraries?
2014-04-21T13:54:23Z zacts: or language features?
2014-04-21T13:54:27Z zacts: CLOS?
2014-04-21T13:54:29Z zacts: :-)
2014-04-21T13:57:43Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-21T13:58:24Z pjb: Mostly, because each time I got back to "lisp" it was a different scheme. r4rs, r5rs, different implementations, etc.
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2014-04-21T13:58:42Z pjb: Once I got back to lisp, and it was the same Common Lisp as the previous time, so it stuck.
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2014-04-21T13:58:50Z zacts: oh nice
2014-04-21T13:59:20Z zacts: well I'm learning scheme for SICP, and then I want to learn some common lisp.
2014-04-21T13:59:52Z pjb: Of course, when studing sicp  you do some scheme.  But for real programs, CL is prefered.
2014-04-21T13:59:59Z zacts: ok
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2014-04-21T14:08:27Z davexunit: I'm pretty sure that many of us feel that scheme is suitable for "real" programs, too.
2014-04-21T14:08:46Z davexunit: CL doesn't embrace the functional paradigm like scheme does.
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2014-04-21T14:10:10Z zacts: davexunit: are you the guy who made that guile game library?
2014-04-21T14:10:24Z zacts: do you have a tutorial on how to make games with it?
2014-04-21T14:11:12Z zacts: I see README.md
2014-04-21T14:17:36Z ijp: davexunit: that's just pjb, you can ignore him
2014-04-21T14:19:47Z pjb: Yeah, CL doesn't embrace it like scheme. It uses SETF instead of SET!
2014-04-21T14:19:48Z davexunit: zacts: I am _making_ that guile game library.  it's not exactly ready for other people to make games yet, though.
2014-04-21T14:20:14Z zacts: hm.. ok. well it looks cool.
2014-04-21T14:21:26Z davexunit: I haven't made a release in about a half of a year, I need to release 0.2 soon.
2014-04-21T14:21:38Z davexunit: (I've been saying this for months)
2014-04-21T14:22:45Z davexunit: I did write a quick clone of 2048, if you'd care to see it.
2014-04-21T14:24:59Z zacts: oh cool, sure
2014-04-21T14:25:02Z Riastradh: Nice passive voice, pjb.  `CL is preferred', as if this were a universal truth.
2014-04-21T14:25:52Z davexunit: zacts: I'd classify this as "a hack" rather than "a well thought-out program", but here it is. https://gitorious.org/guile-2d/guile-2d/source/861ef41797bbb192333dbffc1c9b67985c4f793d:examples/guile-2048/guile-2048.scm
2014-04-21T14:25:56Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kzow3s5
2014-04-21T14:26:40Z davexunit: :)
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2014-04-21T14:46:49Z zacts: oh cool
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2014-04-21T15:37:18Z zacts: hey
2014-04-21T15:37:31Z zacts: anyone mind chatting a bit about streams and lazy eval with scheme?
2014-04-21T15:38:00Z pjdelport: zacts: shoot
2014-04-21T15:38:30Z zacts: I've heard of haskellers using this feature, how is it useful? I understand the representing the set of all natural numbers, but what else can it be used for?
2014-04-21T15:41:02Z zacts: I was so excited to find that my scheme book mentions lazy eval, because haskellers often seem to take pride in that feature, but scheme offers it also.
2014-04-21T15:41:45Z pjdelport: zacts: Well; there's much, much more to lazy evaluation (to the Haskell extent) than streams
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2014-04-21T15:43:33Z pjdelport: Explicit lazy evaluation using promise / force, streams, etc. is great, but it's nothing like working in an entirely non-strict paradigm
2014-04-21T15:45:27Z pjdelport: Conversely, non-strict / lazy evaluation happens to give you lists that can act as demand-driven streams, but that's only a tiny part of it.
2014-04-21T15:47:53Z Riastradh: It also fills your programs with space leaks and prevents stack traces from working...
2014-04-21T15:48:07Z pjdelport: zacts: If you're interested, you should probably just learn a bit of Haskell, to get a feel for it. (I find Haskell and Scheme complement each other very well, for thinking about things.)
2014-04-21T15:48:49Z pjdelport: Riastradh: Freedom isn't free. :)
2014-04-21T15:48:59Z ijp: expensivedom
2014-04-21T15:48:59Z pjdelport ducks
2014-04-21T15:49:03Z zacts: pjdelport: ah ok, that sounds good.
2014-04-21T15:49:52Z ijp: zacts: delaying evaluation is one of the four basic ways to optimise an algorithm
2014-04-21T15:50:10Z ijp: if I remember my norvig right, the other three are indexing, compiling, and caching
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2014-04-21T15:50:43Z pjdelport: zacts: So, the short answer is that Scheme lazy streams doesn't actually *really* overlap all that much with non-strict evaluation, as a paradigm. It's probably more useful to contrast and compare it to things Python's iteration protocol, for practical uses.
2014-04-21T15:51:00Z zacts: ok
2014-04-21T15:51:15Z zacts: cool
2014-04-21T15:52:26Z zacts: I guess streams / lazy eval can also lead to incredibly clear and concise code, right?
2014-04-21T15:52:57Z ijp: or incredibly obscure and concise code
2014-04-21T15:53:01Z pjdelport: "There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things."
2014-04-21T15:53:05Z zacts: except, it sounds like you have to be careful because of what Riastradh said
2014-04-21T15:53:28Z pjdelport: zacts: Nah, what Riastradh said was a comment on Haskell.
2014-04-21T15:53:32Z zacts: oh
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2014-04-21T15:55:51Z pjdelport: zacts: Regarding your question the other day, streams are a great example of a unifying abstraction over disparate kinds of data.
2014-04-21T15:56:14Z ijp: does your stream flow low, does it bob too and fro, can you tie it in a knot....
2014-04-21T15:57:12Z zacts: pjdelport: would you mind providing a simple example? :-)
2014-04-21T15:59:02Z ijp: rudybot: (require srfi/41)
2014-04-21T15:59:03Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
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2014-04-21T15:59:40Z zacts: ijp: I'm reading srfi 41
2014-04-21T16:01:11Z zacts: nice, it actually explains things pretty well
2014-04-21T16:01:18Z zacts: bbiab, gtg..
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2014-04-21T16:01:24Z ijp: I had an amusing example, but apparently it runs out of memory
2014-04-21T16:01:31Z ijp: hooray for streams
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2014-04-21T16:16:05Z zacts: back
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2014-04-21T16:21:23Z pjdelport: (zacts: sorry, my connectivity was being wonky)
2014-04-21T16:22:11Z zacts: pjdelport: no problem, I'm also on and off occassionally until I get my chat server up and running.
2014-04-21T16:23:26Z pjdelport: zacts: I mentioned Python earlier, because the central place its iteration protocol has in the language. It's perhaps a better example of the utility of streams than Scheme, where it's more sidelined.
2014-04-21T16:24:30Z theseb: pjdelport: sooo many good languages to choose from..:)
2014-04-21T16:24:47Z pjdelport: I'm not sure how familiar you are with Python, but its "for" loop is a general construct for iterating over any "iterable", which is essentially a lazy stream.
2014-04-21T16:25:07Z zacts: I'm not too familiar with python, I know perl though.
2014-04-21T16:25:59Z theseb: pjdelport: in the old python for i in range(1000000) would build the list in its entirety first unless you did for i in xrange(1000000):
2014-04-21T16:26:15Z theseb: pjdelport: the new python3 uses xrange (lazy ver) by default iirc
2014-04-21T16:26:29Z pjdelport: zacts: So Python lets you iterate over lists, dicts, strings, files, records, trees... anything else, really, all using the same simple interface.
2014-04-21T16:26:36Z theseb: yes
2014-04-21T16:26:49Z zacts: ah ok
2014-04-21T16:26:55Z theseb: java has that too
2014-04-21T16:27:00Z zacts: that kind of sounds like perl's foreach
2014-04-21T16:27:09Z theseb: for (String x : myStringArray) { ...}
2014-04-21T16:27:11Z zacts: dicts are hash tables right?
2014-04-21T16:27:14Z theseb: yes
2014-04-21T16:27:43Z zacts: foreach my $item (@items) { ... }
2014-04-21T16:27:56Z theseb: it is a common idion in many languages
2014-04-21T16:27:59Z zacts: ok
2014-04-21T16:28:00Z theseb: idiom*
2014-04-21T16:28:54Z zacts: pjdelport: and that's what you are saying about bringing consistency to completely different data types?
2014-04-21T16:29:13Z zacts: well not completely different
2014-04-21T16:29:35Z zacts: but different datatypes that share something in common, in this case iteration
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2014-04-21T16:37:03Z pjdelport: zacts: Right.
2014-04-21T16:40:28Z pjdelport: theseb: It's a bit of a pile of hacks in Java, though; e.g. the treatment of arrays :P
2014-04-21T16:41:14Z zacts: pjdelport: did you see what guy steele jr. was saying about java in that talk I posted?
2014-04-21T16:41:32Z pjdelport: zacts: One thing not to forget is that the idea of lazy streams goes a step beyond iterators.
2014-04-21T16:42:21Z pjdelport: Laziness gives you the expressiveness of just delaying what would be an arbitrary eager expression.
2014-04-21T16:42:45Z pjdelport: Without having to fundamentally change it.
2014-04-21T16:43:40Z pjdelport: Python achieves something similar to Scheme with generators (and you can easly define Python-like generators in Scheme).
2014-04-21T16:44:25Z pjdelport: Whereas in a language without that kind of optional laziness, you often end up having to turn all your code inside-out to make an iterator class, or whatnot.
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2014-04-21T16:45:00Z pjdelport: (In other words, you're effectively acting as a human compiler for the laziness.)
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2014-04-21T16:45:33Z pjdelport: zacts: Which talk?
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2014-04-21T16:46:27Z zacts: pjdelport: http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/steele.pdf
2014-04-21T16:46:57Z zacts: I only saw the first part of it this morning
2014-04-21T16:47:09Z zacts: but, I'll probably read the entire thing tonight
2014-04-21T16:48:06Z pjdelport: zacts: Which bit were you referring to?
2014-04-21T16:50:24Z zacts: oh basically the overall talk
2014-04-21T16:50:41Z zacts: he mentions about the design of java, and the growth of languages
2014-04-21T16:52:17Z pjdelport: Ah; I listened to the talk some years ago, yeah.
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2014-04-21T17:22:36Z zacts: pjdelport: this looks like a cool talk also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP7P_HlcBk
2014-04-21T17:22:39Z zacts: I'm watching it
2014-04-21T17:22:46Z zacts: well skimming it
2014-04-21T17:23:54Z zacts: the first example is interesting
2014-04-21T17:24:02Z theseb: pjdelport: yea..java is trying to be enough like C/C++ to win over those guys and now also more like lisp/python/ruby to be extra useful
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2014-04-21T17:26:35Z zacts: he mentions suspensions
2014-04-21T17:26:48Z zacts: which kind of ties in to what we are talking about with streams it sounds like
2014-04-21T17:27:27Z zacts: lol, suicidal suspensions. suspensions that commit suicide and replace themselves for efficiency or something?
2014-04-21T17:29:28Z zacts: it starts at about 5 minutes
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2014-04-21T17:35:43Z zacts: he also mentions a bit of the history of scheme design decisions
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2014-04-21T17:41:03Z zacts: wow scheme was originally going to be called schemers, but the pdp-11 had limited memory requirements and truncated it to scheme
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2014-04-21T17:47:58Z pjdelport: Not memory or PDP limitations, strictly speaking; ITS filename limitations. :)
2014-04-21T17:48:10Z zacts: ah sorry, thanks for the correction
2014-04-21T17:49:35Z zacts: also, the frons stuff sounds really cool.
2014-04-21T17:49:49Z zacts: merging a (possibly infinite) set of (possibly infinite) lists.
2014-04-21T17:50:23Z zacts: anyway, I don't have time to really watch the rest of it, but I'll have to sometime. it looks way neat.
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2014-04-21T18:43:51Z cmill: Hey guys, i'm trying to figure out how the function calls work in scheme but I can't seem to get it
2014-04-21T18:44:00Z cmill: Could someone possibly help me out with this
2014-04-21T18:44:00Z cmill: http://paste.lisp.org/+31QY
2014-04-21T18:45:07Z cmill: The formula and ctv / vtc functions work properly. I just can't get the encode-n to work properly
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2014-04-21T18:47:08Z turbofail: what's it supposed to do?
2014-04-21T18:47:32Z Riastradh: zacts, not the PDP-11!  Good heavens.  ITS ran on the PDP-10, not the -11.
2014-04-21T18:47:51Z turbofail: cmill: i'm guessing that what you're trying to do is run (encrypt <> n) on every element of some list
2014-04-21T18:48:20Z Riastradh: Still does, for that matter -- at least, virtual ones.  The last physical PDP-10s were shut down about fifteen years ago, I think.  Three or four years ago someone was running one on the open internet for you to play around with, just like back in the days of the ARPAnet.
2014-04-21T18:50:12Z turbofail: cmill: if so it's important to note that `map' expects a function as its first argument, which is not what you're giving it.  it also takes a list as its second argument, which you're not providing at all
2014-04-21T18:51:29Z cmill: turbofail: if you take a look at the encode-n function. i'm using n and w as inputs. then with those values I want to run the encrypt function on them
2014-04-21T18:52:32Z cmill: and have the function return the value of vtc(..)
2014-04-21T18:53:29Z turbofail: uh.  so you mean you just want to reorder the arguments?
2014-04-21T18:54:52Z turbofail: how are you expecting to be able to use encode-n?
2014-04-21T18:56:18Z cmill: well the purpose of this function is the create a caesars cypher
2014-04-21T18:56:26Z turbofail: can you provide an example input and expected output is what i mean
2014-04-21T18:57:28Z cmill: sure.
2014-04-21T18:57:29Z cmill: (define add5 (encode-n 5))
2014-04-21T18:57:35Z cmill: therefore on an input where w = hello and n=5
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2014-04-21T18:58:39Z turbofail: ok.  so you're expecting w to be a string then?
2014-04-21T18:59:47Z cmill: it would return mjqqt
2014-04-21T19:00:20Z turbofail: so your first problem is that you're calling encript with a string when it clearly expects a single character or something
2014-04-21T19:00:40Z cmill: here let me give you the full picture, maybe it'll be easier to understand what i'm trying to do
2014-04-21T19:00:56Z turbofail: well now i have a pretty good idea of what you're trying to do
2014-04-21T19:01:42Z turbofail: anyways are you familiar with how map is supposed to be used?
2014-04-21T19:02:11Z turbofail: rudybot: (map (lambda (x) (+ x 3)) '(1 2 3 4 5))
2014-04-21T19:02:11Z rudybot: turbofail: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-21T19:02:11Z rudybot: turbofail: ; Value: '(4 5 6 7 8)
2014-04-21T19:02:52Z cmill: basically there are two functions, one of which is encode-n and one is encode-d. encode-n takes two inputs (a word and a number). then it returns the "encrypted" version of that word by shifting every letter by the number.
2014-04-21T19:04:06Z zacts: Riastradh: heh
2014-04-21T19:04:42Z cmill: so (vtc(modulo (+ (ctv x) n) 26)) is the function that will do just that exactly
2014-04-21T19:05:25Z turbofail: cmill: sure.  and now what you want encode-n to do is run that function on every element of a string or list or somethign
2014-04-21T19:07:18Z cmill: no, so encode-n is supposed to do this to one word
2014-04-21T19:07:41Z cmill: however encode-d is supposed to run this function on a whole paragraph
2014-04-21T19:08:28Z turbofail: ok.  well at some point you'll need a function that'll do it to some string
2014-04-21T19:09:30Z turbofail: you can work on extracting words and paragraphs out later
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2014-04-21T19:20:48Z cmill: turbofail: sorry i disconnected
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2014-04-21T21:30:08Z therik: just out of curiosity, is it valid to use arbitrary expression in car of list, where function name usually is in lisp1?
2014-04-21T21:31:11Z Riastradh: rudybot: eval ((car (list +)) 1 2)
2014-04-21T21:31:12Z rudybot: Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-21T21:31:12Z rudybot: Riastradh: ; Value: 3
2014-04-21T21:31:23Z ijp: QED
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2014-04-21T21:31:39Z therik: whoah thanks
2014-04-21T21:32:27Z pjdelport: therik: It's pretty common to do things like dispatching like that.
2014-04-21T21:32:30Z cmill: turbofail: Hey, you still around? I was having internet problems before
2014-04-21T21:33:27Z therik: so I suppose CL's funcall is unnecessary then
2014-04-21T21:33:37Z Riastradh: Correct.
2014-04-21T21:33:42Z therik: I mean, in scheme ofc
2014-04-21T21:34:14Z ijp: rudybot: whom do schemers call for fun?
2014-04-21T21:34:15Z rudybot: ijp: The upshot of all of this is that in practice schemers just don't do it.
2014-04-21T21:34:38Z ijp: I guess I'll be back in the ivory tower, nose to the grindstone :(
2014-04-21T21:34:41Z antoszka: In CL, you're only allowed to have a ((lambda …) …) form as a tribute to Lisp-1 legacy. Otherwise funcall/apply/whatever would be needed.
2014-04-21T21:34:58Z therik: is apply in scheme too?
2014-04-21T21:35:02Z ijp: yes
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2014-04-21T21:44:13Z cmill: Hey guys, I"m trying to create a spell checker in Scheme, that will basically check to see if the spelling of a word is correct by comparing it to every word in a dictionary file
2014-04-21T21:44:22Z cmill: Can someone throw some ideas as to how I should go about doing so
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2014-04-21T21:44:40Z cmill: the output will simply be yes or no (true or false)
2014-04-21T21:45:24Z pjdelport: cmill: obligatory reference: http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
2014-04-21T21:45:33Z pjdelport: (just for inspiration)
2014-04-21T21:45:42Z antoszka: I'd use a hash table, but that probably wouldn't be portable.
2014-04-21T21:45:59Z antoszka: Not sure what's the state of hash-tables in Scheme these days.
2014-04-21T21:46:14Z antoszka: And yeah, listen to Norvig :)
2014-04-21T21:46:46Z ijp: portable in r6rs, not portable in r7rs small, r7rs large plans to include everything ever conceived by programmerkind so it will be in there
2014-04-21T21:47:19Z antoszka: :)
2014-04-21T21:47:37Z cmill: We honestly haven't even tried implementation of any type of data structures yet
2014-04-21T21:47:59Z cmill: I was thinking more of a loop that checks against every word of the dictionary then returns the rest of the dictionary if not equal until there is nothing left in the list
2014-04-21T21:48:37Z cmill: (the dictionary is small, its not for practical purposes, just for understanding the semantics behind cdr car and atom functions)
2014-04-21T21:49:05Z antoszka: In that case a MAP.
2014-04-21T21:49:10Z pjdelport: cmill: In that case, there's probably no need for sets / hash tables.
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2014-04-21T21:49:50Z cmill: antoszka: i figured it would be a map, but I'm not sure how to implement the loop without using recursion
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2014-04-21T21:52:01Z pjdelport: cmill: You can just use "member" to check for list membership.
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2014-04-21T21:52:56Z cmill: is member standard?
2014-04-21T21:54:38Z pjdelport: yes
2014-04-21T21:57:21Z cmill: thank you, but one more question.
2014-04-21T21:57:30Z cmill: for example (member 2 (list 1 2 3 4)) returns 2
2014-04-21T21:57:51Z cmill: but how would i make it so that it returns true if it is in the list, or false if not
2014-04-21T21:57:55Z cmill: rather than displaying the value
2014-04-21T21:58:08Z ecraven: cmill: member returns the rest of the list, not #t or #f
2014-04-21T21:58:22Z ecraven: that's why it isn't called member? but member (no question mark)
2014-04-21T21:58:41Z ijp: cmill: in scheme, any value other than #f is considered a true value
2014-04-21T21:59:24Z cmill: so would it be possible to make a function stating if member return true, else false
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2014-04-21T22:00:37Z pjdelport: cmill: That's what member already does
2014-04-21T22:01:18Z ecraven: cmill: (lambda (a lst) (if (member a lst) #t #f)) is that function
2014-04-21T22:01:37Z ecraven: or even (not (not (member a lst)))
2014-04-21T22:02:24Z ecraven: cmill: but as others have said, all values except #f are true (equivalent to #t), so most of the time there's no need to do what I said
2014-04-21T22:02:33Z ecraven: (unless you want to hide values in an external interface)
2014-04-21T22:02:39Z cmill: makes sense, thank you very much guys
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2014-04-21T22:34:52Z cmill: hey guys sorry if i'm asking too many questions, but i have one more if you don't mind
2014-04-21T22:35:16Z cmill: i successfully created a caesars cipher, as well as a spell checker, in scheme.
2014-04-21T22:35:47Z cmill: but now my goal is to create a "decrypter" in a sense. after some research i chose to go with the brute force method
2014-04-21T22:36:23Z cmill: however, i'm not sure how to return the value that has the most proper English words (checked with the spell checker)
2014-04-21T22:38:47Z cmill: by value, i mean the value used  to "shift" the letters over in the cipher
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2014-04-21T22:44:25Z pjdelport: cmill: That's what the channel is for. :)
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2014-04-21T22:46:18Z pjdelport: cmill: If you have a procedure that checks one offset and returns the number of matches, you can simply run it against all offsets, and return the offset with the maximum.
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2014-04-21T22:47:09Z cmill: pjdelport: so i should make a function that checks for one offset (i.e n=1), then run that function 26 times iterating n?
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2014-04-21T23:05:52Z pjdelport: cmill: That should work, yes.
2014-04-21T23:06:19Z cmill: but then how would i compare all of the offsets to find the greatest one
2014-04-21T23:06:23Z cmill: create a list and find the max of it?
2014-04-21T23:07:40Z pjdelport: That's one way; especially if you want the top N candidates, rather than just one.
2014-04-21T23:08:05Z pjdelport: Otherwise, if you just want the top candidate, you can loop through and just keep track of the maximum as you go.
2014-04-21T23:08:12Z pjdelport: (and return it at the end)
2014-04-21T23:17:35Z cmill: pjdelport: i understand the logic behind it, i am now working towards implementing it.
2014-04-21T23:18:08Z cmill: thank you
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2014-04-21T23:48:00Z cmill: pjdelport: i'm having a hard time creating the one occurrence, would you mind taking a look at my code and suggesting an idea?
2014-04-21T23:50:23Z cmill: http://paste.lisp.org/+31R4
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2014-04-22T00:05:29Z cmill: could someone please help me in completing my Decrypter (via brute force) for a Caesar's Cipher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher)
2014-04-22T00:05:42Z cmill: This is my work so far: http://paste.lisp.org/+31R4
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2014-04-22T00:29:10Z rszeno: cmill, help you how?
2014-04-22T00:29:41Z cmill: I'm trying to create a decrypter for it. Something along the lines of http://paste.lisp.org/+31R5
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2014-04-22T00:30:08Z cmill: However, instead of using an alphabet, I need to spellcheck against my dictionary.
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2014-04-22T00:31:17Z rszeno: for what? any leter in any word obey to same rule, (mod x y)
2014-04-22T00:31:45Z cmill: A decrypter for a Caesar's cipher
2014-04-22T00:31:47Z rszeno: and how complex you want to be
2014-04-22T00:31:50Z rszeno: ?
2014-04-22T00:31:51Z cmill: As simple as possible.
2014-04-22T00:32:50Z rszeno: i already seen the code
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2014-04-22T00:34:20Z cmill: And? :-D
2014-04-22T00:34:59Z rszeno: i think is fine, :) except i don't understand why you need the dictionary, :)
2014-04-22T00:35:39Z cmill: Well the dictionary is to verify that the word is an English word.
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2014-04-22T00:36:50Z rszeno: why freqeuncy is not enough?
2014-04-22T00:37:47Z rszeno: a dictionary could be huge, is not practical, derivation for each, etc.
2014-04-22T00:38:00Z rszeno: i mean each word
2014-04-22T00:38:05Z cmill: Yeah, it's not meant for practical purposes
2014-04-22T00:38:31Z rszeno: i see
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2014-04-22T00:38:50Z zacts: lo
2014-04-22T00:39:59Z rszeno: one way to use a dictionary is to build a finit automaton from it, is is small is ok
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2014-04-22T01:06:18Z zacts: is oX a reserved name?
2014-04-22T01:06:52Z LeoNerd: oX unlikely so, but possibly things beginning with 0x are, because of hex number constants...?
2014-04-22T01:07:32Z zacts: weird
2014-04-22T01:07:36Z zacts: how do I invoke the bot?
2014-04-22T01:07:45Z zacts: with a scheme expression?
2014-04-22T01:07:55Z LeoNerd: rudybot: eval 0x100
2014-04-22T01:07:55Z rudybot: LeoNerd: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-22T01:07:55Z rudybot: LeoNerd: error: 0x100: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-04-22T01:08:07Z LeoNerd: rudybot: eval (display 0x100)
2014-04-22T01:08:07Z rudybot: LeoNerd: error: 0x100: undefined; <NEWLINE>  cannot reference an identifier before its definition <NEWLINE>   in module: 'program
2014-04-22T01:08:15Z LeoNerd: Mm.. evidentally not
2014-04-22T01:09:21Z zacts: rudybot: (define oX (lambda (n m) (cond ((zero? m) 0) (else (o+ n (X n (sub1 m)))))))
2014-04-22T01:09:21Z rudybot: zacts: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-22T01:09:21Z rudybot: zacts: Done.
2014-04-22T01:09:28Z zacts: rudybot: oX
2014-04-22T01:09:28Z rudybot: zacts: ; Value: #<procedure:oX>
2014-04-22T01:10:07Z turbofail: pretty sure 0x.* isn't anything special in most schemes
2014-04-22T01:10:10Z zacts: oh, I think it was a typo in my program actually oX seems to be working. sorry.
2014-04-22T01:10:31Z zacts: letter 'o' capital letter 'X' is ok apparently
2014-04-22T01:17:43Z ijp: hex constants begin #x
2014-04-22T01:18:17Z LeoNerd: Ohyes, duh
2014-04-22T01:18:19Z ijp: rudybot: (list #o31 25 #x19)
2014-04-22T01:18:20Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-22T01:18:20Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(25 25 25)
2014-04-22T01:19:50Z zacts: neat
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2014-04-22T01:44:25Z zacts: ok I had a totally weird bug
2014-04-22T01:44:39Z zacts: it had me stumped for like 15 min
2014-04-22T01:44:49Z zacts: I forgot to eval my buffer.. like omg.
2014-04-22T01:45:28Z zacts: I guess it's because I'm evaluating each expression one by one, and I forgot to re-eval one of the definitions that I changed.
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2014-04-22T14:54:44Z fanzeyi: Hi, I'm new to Scheme (and FP). I want to know is there any interactive shell to Scheme like pry to Ruby or IPython to Python ?
2014-04-22T14:55:24Z LeoNerd: Yes; REPLs have been common in Scheme/Lisp places for decades
2014-04-22T14:55:29Z LeoNerd: (In fact the idea -came- from Lisps :) )
2014-04-22T14:56:06Z fanzeyi: LeoNerd: I mean.. except the original shell. I've installed mit-scheme and I've used `scheme` command.
2014-04-22T14:56:16Z mario-goulart: fanzeyi: it pretty much depends on the scheme implementation you are using.  Anyway, most of them provide a decent repl.
2014-04-22T14:56:37Z civodul: fanzeyi: for Racket and Guile you can use Geiser (within Emacs)
2014-04-22T14:56:52Z civodul: http://nongnu.org/geiser
2014-04-22T14:57:17Z civodul: for MIT i guess Edwin is the thing
2014-04-22T14:57:23Z mario-goulart: By the way, REPL means "Read, Eval, Print, Loop" (aka "shell"), in case you are not used to this nomenclature.
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2014-04-22T14:57:56Z fanzeyi: civodul: thanks. but I'm using MIT Scheme =)
2014-04-22T14:58:49Z fanzeyi: civodul: and I just feel the Edwin is a little difficult to use.. so I asked that question.
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2014-04-22T15:05:34Z fanzeyi: thank you everyone, seems I have to adapt to Edwin. =)
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2014-04-22T19:08:05Z george2: Is there a Windows download for GNU Guile? I found this http://gnu-guile.apponic.com/download/link-1/, but I'm not sure if it's real or not.
2014-04-22T19:08:37Z wingo: george2: the guile project does not provide windows binaries
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2014-04-22T19:09:02Z wingo: that would be nice but we're a bit understaffed and don't have any windows hackers
2014-04-22T19:09:06Z pjdelport: george2: that looks highly dodgy
2014-04-22T19:09:21Z george2: OK. I'm on Linux myself, but I'm working on a group project in Scheme, and my team members are Windows users, so I'm looking for some way we can all use the same interpreter/compiler.
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2014-04-22T19:09:53Z george2: It seems scheme isn't really known for being portable. :)
2014-04-22T19:10:01Z Riastradh: Shared project machine, use putty?
2014-04-22T19:10:09Z Riastradh: More like Windows isn't known for being developer-friendly...
2014-04-22T19:10:11Z george2: Ooh, good idea.
2014-04-22T19:10:17Z george2: I'll just give them access to one of my servers
2014-04-22T19:10:32Z Riastradh: (or user-friendly in general, in the sense of not treating users like adversaries)
2014-04-22T19:11:24Z Riastradh: Or, virtual machine under Windows?
2014-04-22T19:11:24Z george2: I'm not sure how comfortable they are with text mode. Maybe I can get them set up with some X forwarding.
2014-04-22T19:11:38Z pjdelport: george2: You could perhaps get them to run a VM
2014-04-22T19:11:50Z pjdelport: e.g. Vagrant
2014-04-22T19:12:08Z george2: That seems to be asking a little too much. As I said, they're windows users.
2014-04-22T19:12:38Z george2: I know they have some experience with linux, but I don't think it's very much.
2014-04-22T19:12:47Z mario-goulart: george2: you can also compile guile yourself on a windows system (maybe VM) and distribute the binaries.
2014-04-22T19:13:31Z mario-goulart: Or cross compile from Linux to Windows
2014-04-22T19:13:34Z george2: How likely is that to actually work? Do you think I'd be able to just ./configure;make;make install in cygwin or mingw/gcc or something?
2014-04-22T19:13:55Z mario-goulart: I actually have no idea.  I've never done that. :-)
2014-04-22T19:14:08Z C-Keen: expect some pain
2014-04-22T19:14:12Z mario-goulart: But it's probably possible.  Sorry for the handswaving.
2014-04-22T19:14:27Z george2: heh. well, probably not the best idea to try that for a project that's due in a week. none of us have much time.
2014-04-22T19:15:39Z george2: I'll see how just giving them ssh into a box with a compiler works.
2014-04-22T19:16:08Z george2: by the way, scheme is an interpreted language, right?
2014-04-22T19:16:14Z Riastradh: No.
2014-04-22T19:16:23Z george2: It is compiled?
2014-04-22T19:16:29Z Riastradh: `Interpreted language' is usually not a sensible concept to begin with.
2014-04-22T19:16:34Z mario-goulart: That's an implementation detail, in fact.
2014-04-22T19:16:40Z Riastradh: There's going to be an interpreter somewhere.
2014-04-22T19:16:46Z C-Keen: there's guile 1.8.2 for cygwin...
2014-04-22T19:16:51Z vraid: george2: it's interpreted if you run it through an interpreter, compiled if you run it through a compiler
2014-04-22T19:16:57Z Riastradh: There might be an interpreter running an interpreter.
2014-04-22T19:17:13Z george2: well, it seems to use autoexecute sections, which seems like a scripting language feature to me, and guile seems to have an interactive mode.
2014-04-22T19:17:27Z george2: But guile does compile to ELF format then?
2014-04-22T19:17:35Z vraid: c++ can be interpreted too
2014-04-22T19:17:39Z Riastradh: There might be a compiler involved.
2014-04-22T19:17:41Z pjdelport: george2: A Scheme implementation may be interpreting, compiling, both, or whatnot; Scheme is just a language.
2014-04-22T19:17:51Z george2: ok, got it.
2014-04-22T19:18:20Z george2: I find it interesting that there are so many different and non-compatible implementations.
2014-04-22T19:18:53Z mario-goulart: Oh, yes.
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2014-04-22T19:19:12Z ijp: interesting is not the word I would use
2014-04-22T19:19:27Z mario-goulart: :-)
2014-04-22T19:19:52Z Riastradh: My mailer is written in Scheme and runs on MIT Scheme.  Most of it is compiled to x86 machine code, which is interpreted by the Intel Core i7 CPU in my laptop.  It can also compile or interpret code on the fly when I switch to the REPL buffer in Edwin.
2014-04-22T19:21:23Z Riastradh: 'Course, the i7 CPU in my laptop doesn't interpret the x86 machine code directly.  It compiles that to microinstructions which are really interpreted by the CPU.
2014-04-22T19:22:01Z mario-goulart: Isn't the i7 CPU the CPU?
2014-04-22T19:22:11Z z0d: did Guile have a rewrite of some sort? years ago it wasn't a recommended Scheme
2014-04-22T19:22:24Z Riastradh: Yes, mario-goulart.
2014-04-22T19:22:51Z george2: hrm. Guile and racket are the only implementations available in my repos, if I want anything else I'll have to go do work to find it.
2014-04-22T19:23:32Z george2: I was looking for a good intro to Scheme that showed some of the unique features of the language, without all the basic syntax stuff every tutorial seems to cover. Does anyone know of anything like this?
2014-04-22T19:23:34Z ijp: z0d: big changes between 1.8 and 2.x
2014-04-22T19:24:19Z george2: Something that talked about building extremely basic AIs with Scheme would be especially handy.
2014-04-22T19:25:41Z george2: I'm not exactly sure what part of AI scheme (or lisp in general) is supposed to be good at. Machine learning? String processing/NLP? Someone mentioned something about Scheme programs that write Scheme programs?
2014-04-22T19:26:01Z george2: but  not in the sense of quines
2014-04-22T19:26:22Z z0d: what is a continuation in low-level terms? it's the state of a program with regards to the Program Counter and the Stack Pointer?
2014-04-22T19:26:24Z ijp: the AI reputation is a holdover from years ago
2014-04-22T19:26:44Z ijp: z0d: more or less
2014-04-22T19:27:01Z Riastradh: ((lambda (x) `(,x ',x)) '(lambda (x) `(,x ',x)))
2014-04-22T19:27:17Z pjdelport: z0d: You can think about it that way (it would also have to include the contents of the stack, though), but it's probably more misleading than not.
2014-04-22T19:27:34Z ijp: rudybot: (cons 'display (cons "hello world\n" '()))
2014-04-22T19:27:34Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(display "hello world\n")
2014-04-22T19:27:41Z ijp: there, a very simple program that writes a program
2014-04-22T19:27:42Z george2: So if you could pick one type of program that exemplified the unique features of Scheme compared to other languages, what would it be?
2014-04-22T19:28:10Z pjdelport: z0d: Continuations can be represented any number of ways; just like (for example) lambda abstractions can be. What's important is the associated semantics.
2014-04-22T19:28:53Z oleo: wait
2014-04-22T19:29:07Z oleo: are continuations == closures ?
2014-04-22T19:29:08Z ijp: no
2014-04-22T19:29:21Z oleo: a closure chain ?
2014-04-22T19:29:37Z z0d: george2: maybe (hygienic) macros (though Common Lisp also has (unhygienic) macros)
2014-04-22T19:29:38Z ijp: that doesn't even make sense
2014-04-22T19:29:49Z z0d: which are much more powerful than e.g. C macros
2014-04-22T19:29:55Z george2: ijp: well, I can't imagine she just meant printing it to the screen... you can do that in any language.
2014-04-22T19:30:06Z pjdelport: george2: Scheme's defining innovations were probably true lexical scope, full tail call elimination, and continuations.
2014-04-22T19:30:28Z george2: great, I'll look those up then.
2014-04-22T19:30:31Z vraid: wasn't scheme the first language with closures, too?
2014-04-22T19:30:33Z ijp: taken from algol, assembly hacks, and denotational semantics, respectively
2014-04-22T19:30:52Z pjdelport: vraid: That's what I meant with true lexical scope, yeah.
2014-04-22T19:31:01Z ijp: surely maclisp had FUNCTION
2014-04-22T19:31:27Z pjdelport: oleo: Not really, no.
2014-04-22T19:31:48Z oleo: how would one describe them ?
2014-04-22T19:32:02Z vraid: pjdelport: ah, didn't get that
2014-04-22T19:32:05Z `^_^v: continuations or closures?
2014-04-22T19:32:37Z ijp: too many cooks here...I'm out
2014-04-22T19:33:00Z pjdelport: oleo: Well, when it comes down to it, they just are continuations: it's a specific, well-defined formalism.
2014-04-22T19:33:29Z oleo: so anything created by call/cc is a continuation ?
2014-04-22T19:33:31Z pjdelport: The most precise definition of a continuation is that it's "anything that behaves like a continuation". :)
2014-04-22T19:33:43Z oleo: allright...
2014-04-22T19:34:09Z pjdelport: You can make analogies, but at the end of the day you just have to study the thing itself until it clicks.
2014-04-22T19:34:29Z oleo: will have another look there....
2014-04-22T19:34:57Z pjdelport: oleo: Continuations are literally everywhere, though; they're the air that processes breathe.
2014-04-22T19:35:11Z `^_^v: what?
2014-04-22T19:35:38Z pjdelport: The "a-ha" moment is when you realize how pervasive they are, in every language.
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2014-04-22T19:36:11Z pjdelport: Scheme just makes them first-class by giving you a handle to what's already there.
2014-04-22T19:36:18Z LeoNerd: (display (+ 1 2))   probably involves at least 4 continuations
2014-04-22T19:37:36Z pjdelport: oleo: One useful way to understand what's sometimes called reified continuations is that it's an expression with a "hole" in it.
2014-04-22T19:37:53Z `^_^v: continuations are by definition reified
2014-04-22T19:37:55Z pjdelport: So taking LeoNerd's example, imagine you had (display (+ [] 2))
2014-04-22T19:38:17Z `^_^v: "the rest of a computation," while being what a continuation represents, is not a continuation
2014-04-22T19:38:48Z pjdelport: where he [] is a hole, waiting for a value: and the entire surrounding expression is its continuation
2014-04-22T19:39:44Z pjdelport: one way of representing this would be: (lambda (v) (display (+ v 2)))
2014-04-22T19:40:16Z pjdelport: You've packaged the continuation into a explicit lambda
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2014-04-22T19:41:07Z pjdelport: When you call it, it does the addition and the display.
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2014-04-22T19:42:31Z pjdelport: but in general, continuations capture the *entire* surrounding computation
2014-04-22T19:43:15Z pjdelport: you can think of this operationally as capturing the call stack, or more formally as capturing the entire surrounding expression that builds up as you incrementally evaluate a program.
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2014-04-22T19:44:55Z pjdelport: the previous lambda-encoding of a continuation is essentially what's involved in writing code in continuation-passing style, by they way
2014-04-22T19:46:35Z pjdelport: The key to understanding continuations is recognizing what all these different representations have in common, though: whether you're thinking of instruction pointers, or CPS, or stack copies, or anything else.
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2014-04-22T19:56:33Z oleo: http://www.jquigley.com/files/talks/continuations.pdf
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2014-04-22T19:56:57Z oleo: and there are other more linguistically inclined ones.....
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2014-04-22T20:00:41Z pjdelport: oleo: That seems like a good presentation.
2014-04-22T20:02:11Z oleo: yes but it destroyed my lambda animalculus!
2014-04-22T20:02:16Z oleo: lol
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2014-04-22T22:00:30Z george2: OK, I can't get guile to run what is supposedly valid r6rs from https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3173327/getting-a-line-of-user-input-in-scheme
2014-04-22T22:00:31Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ktwkq6t
2014-04-22T22:00:40Z george2: and racket tells me #lang scheme is not defined
2014-04-22T22:01:20Z george2: How can I get up and running with a working r6rs compiler?
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2014-04-22T22:02:11Z george2: ...or r5rs, if that's more widely used.
2014-04-22T22:02:53Z george2: I'm just trying to do a simple read-dosomething-print loop right now, and everything is yelling at me about stuff I don't understand.
2014-04-22T22:05:26Z civodul: Guile has 'read-line' in (ice-9 rdelim)
2014-04-22T22:05:56Z george2: ;;; <unknown-location>: warning: possibly unbound variable `read-line'
2014-04-22T22:06:00Z george2: I hate this awkward stage of learning a new language, where you don't understand the compiler's error message yet, so it looks like a bunch or random garbage.
2014-04-22T22:06:11Z george2: do I have ti import something first?
2014-04-22T22:06:14Z george2: to
2014-04-22T22:07:11Z george2: ah, importing ice-9 rdelim makes it work
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2014-04-22T22:12:31Z civodul: (use-modules (ice-9 rdelim))
2014-04-22T22:13:30Z george2: hm
2014-04-22T22:13:46Z george2: what's the difference between that and (import (ice-9 rdelim))
2014-04-22T22:13:47Z george2: ?
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2014-04-22T22:14:05Z george2: both seem to work
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2014-04-22T22:16:20Z zacts: (display "scheme rocks!")
2014-04-22T22:17:04Z pcoutin: where is newline
2014-04-22T22:17:40Z zacts: pcoutin: (display "scheme rocks!\n")
2014-04-22T22:18:00Z LeoNerd: "Scheme rocks" =~ "Scheme is unstable"
2014-04-22T22:20:29Z pcoutin: zacts: oh nice. i remembered it not working O_o maybe on s9fes... ... dunno
2014-04-22T22:21:00Z pcoutin: yup, doesn't work on s9fes, but works on chicken
2014-04-22T22:24:33Z zacts: LeoNerd: scheme is like a frog. it's slimey with all of the parens.
2014-04-22T22:24:55Z zacts: learning perl is like learning to glue one mold colony to another
2014-04-22T22:24:56Z george2: Is there a way to get input, check it in an if, then continue processing it? Haskell has variable <- getLine syntax for this.
2014-04-22T22:25:52Z george2: I would like to exit if input is #<eof>, else continue
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2014-04-22T22:29:06Z zacts: LeoNerd: sorry it's kind of like a joke between pink_mist and I from #minix and #perl.
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2014-04-22T22:41:26Z george2: got that... now how do I express #<eof> ?
2014-04-22T22:41:52Z george2: it's not (= input #<eof>), because that complains Unknown # object: #\<
2014-04-22T22:41:55Z zacts: which scheme are you using?
2014-04-22T22:41:58Z george2: guile
2014-04-22T22:42:06Z zacts: guile-1.8 or guile-2.0?
2014-04-22T22:42:08Z george2: 2.0
2014-04-22T22:43:12Z george2: maybe eof-object? is what I want
2014-04-22T22:44:02Z george2: yep
2014-04-22T22:45:15Z zacts: george2: there is also #guile, and they usually answer quickly. and they know a ton, they have helped me quite a lot.
2014-04-22T22:45:36Z george2: cool, thanks
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2014-04-23T15:28:25Z oleo: weird that in lambda notation variables are lambda expressions too....
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2014-04-23T17:23:06Z taylanub: oleo: "lambda notation" ?
2014-04-23T17:24:13Z oleo: yep, but heading haskellitis!
2014-04-23T17:24:15Z oleo: lol
2014-04-23T17:24:24Z oleo: at least to read articles i mean!
2014-04-23T17:25:29Z oleo: untyped lambda is easy, dunno if i'll grasp the typed one.....
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2014-04-24T01:05:09Z zbigniew: oops, irc client fell off the planet
2014-04-24T01:05:28Z zbigniew: I am about to release 4.8.0.6 unless someone objects with a last-second patch
2014-04-24T01:07:30Z zbigniew: oh, meant to say that in #chicken.  Sorry folks
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2014-04-24T02:59:14Z offby1: tsk tsk
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2014-04-24T03:16:49Z offby1: hi #anxiety
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2014-04-24T03:17:24Z gnomon: medium #apathy
2014-04-24T03:18:25Z offby1 inflates a paper bag
2014-04-24T03:18:49Z gnomon flails a passel of tentacles wildly
2014-04-24T03:22:27Z Riastradh: small #medium
2014-04-24T03:23:00Z Riastradh: Sometimes I'm tempted to walk into a coffee shop and order a `small medium with large'.
2014-04-24T03:23:31Z gnomon: Riastradh, you should punctuate that order with an eyebrow waggle at the end, and see how often you get slapped instead of charged for a drink.
2014-04-24T03:23:43Z gnomon: Or perhaps you shouldn't, come to think of it.
2014-04-24T03:24:08Z Riastradh: Yeah, I think I'll take the `shouldn't' advice.
2014-04-24T03:24:40Z gnomon: Really, more declarative sentences should end with an eyebrow waggle.  "The Friday night code promotion failed the smoke tests on Saturday morning, the rollback failed, and the trading floor opened an hour ago.  The lynch mob approaches."  *eyebrow waggle*
2014-04-24T03:24:58Z gnomon: ^_-
2014-04-24T03:25:00Z gnomon: -_^
2014-04-24T03:25:21Z Riastradh: `Aw, crap.  The refrigerator's leaking again, and now the cheese drawer is full of mold.'
2014-04-24T03:25:55Z gnomon waggles Riastradh's eyebrows for him
2014-04-24T03:25:59Z gnomon: prod prod
2014-04-24T03:26:05Z Riastradh raises several eyebrows.
2014-04-24T03:26:11Z gnomon: eek
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2014-04-24T03:28:40Z gnomon: wingo, any chance you could drag pkhuong in here?
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2014-04-24T03:32:15Z offby1: if just one ... I say, if just one person walks into a coffee shop, orders a "small medium with large", and walks out, they'll think he's crazy.
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2014-04-24T03:35:50Z gnomon: offby1, so you're saying that the trick is to make an afternoon project of it, and recruit a half-dozen friends or so?
2014-04-24T03:35:57Z gnomon pages Improv Everywhere
2014-04-24T03:36:26Z gnomon: offby1, I keep meaning to order a very typical drink, give my name as "Bueller", then walk out and never return.
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2014-04-24T03:39:43Z offby1: you'd need to leave behind a video camera or something
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2014-04-24T03:40:08Z gnomon: Or an accomplice.
2014-04-24T03:40:23Z Riastradh: Naw, just a Groucho Marx disguise.
2014-04-24T03:40:24Z gnomon: *eyebrow waggle*
2014-04-24T03:40:36Z Riastradh: Take it off and walk right back in.  They'll never catch on.
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2014-04-24T03:41:34Z Riastradh: (or put it on and walk right back in, but don't take it on and walk right back off or put it in and take right back out or anything like that -- that'll raise their suspicion)
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2014-04-24T03:41:54Z Riastradh: (and an aroused suspicion is something you never want to share a coffee date with)
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2014-04-24T03:42:10Z gnomon: Certainly never in public.
2014-04-24T03:42:13Z gnomon: The scandal!
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2014-04-24T07:01:14Z pjdelport: What's the joke about the midget fortune-teller who escaped jail? "a small medium at large"
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2014-04-24T10:12:00Z iron_houzi: Can anybody please tell me how I can have variable arguments for an anonymous procedure and how to call these? I have (lambda (args ...)) but I don't know how to call the arguments.
2014-04-24T10:12:42Z ecraven: iron_houzi: (lambda (a b . rest) (if (null? rest) "no more arguments" rest))
2014-04-24T10:12:52Z ecraven: you have two mandatory arguments, and any number of optional ones
2014-04-24T10:13:06Z ecraven: they are all put into the list `rest'. if that list is empty, there are no more arguments
2014-04-24T10:13:55Z ecraven: some Scheme implementations provide "better" support for optional arguments, like (lambda (a b #!optional c d) ...)  with a corresponding predicate default-object? to check whether that argument was actually passed
2014-04-24T10:14:00Z ecraven: or something similar :)
2014-04-24T10:14:03Z ijp: I'm guessing that ... is really the name of your second variable in that lambda
2014-04-24T10:14:46Z ecraven: iron_houzi: unless you are talking about syntax-rules, where an actual `...' is used
2014-04-24T10:15:15Z ijp: rudybot: (lambda (args ...) (list args ...))
2014-04-24T10:15:16Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-24T10:15:16Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: #<procedure>
2014-04-24T10:15:24Z ijp: rudybot: ((lambda (args ...) (list args ...)) 1 2)
2014-04-24T10:15:24Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(1 2)
2014-04-24T10:15:27Z ijp: rudybot: ((lambda (args ...) (list args ...)) 1 2 3)
2014-04-24T10:15:27Z rudybot: ijp: error: #<procedure>: arity mismatch; <NEWLINE>  the expected number of arguments does not match the given number <NEWLINE>   expected: 2 <NEWLINE>   given: 3 <NEWLINE>   arguments...: <NEWLINE>    1 <NEWLINE>    2 <NEWLINE>    3
2014-04-24T10:15:34Z ijp: as expected
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2014-04-24T10:16:00Z ijp: rudybot: ((lambda (args ...) (list ... args)) 1 2)
2014-04-24T10:16:00Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(2 1)
2014-04-24T10:20:29Z ecraven: Riastradh: could you post that link to your efforts regarding edwin and colors again? I seem to have misplaced it :(
2014-04-24T10:21:28Z z0d: let erejéig érvényes, és a McReggeli™-t árusító éttermekben csak
2014-04-24T10:21:30Z z0d: oops
2014-04-24T10:21:46Z z0d: http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/edwin-colour-20140413.patch
2014-04-24T10:21:47Z z0d: this one?
2014-04-24T10:22:33Z ecraven: z0d: yes, thanks!
2014-04-24T10:22:52Z ijp: and the winner for least plausible typo goes to....
2014-04-24T10:24:09Z z0d: and on top of that, I have no idea how that babble went into my clipboard
2014-04-24T10:25:12Z z0d: even Google Translate fails to beat it
2014-04-24T10:25:23Z ecraven: it's hungarian
2014-04-24T10:25:38Z z0d: yeah, that's what Google told me too
2014-04-24T10:25:50Z z0d: I might have a backdoor in my mouse
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2014-04-24T10:26:45Z ijp: rudybot: the hungarian mouse hack, a classic
2014-04-24T10:26:46Z rudybot: ijp: Was it Fermi who asked "where are they?" about aliens? His contention was that we really should have seen them by now, mathematically speaking. To which, Teller(I think) replied - "yeah, we know them as Hungarians" - alluding to the fact that Hungarian is such an alien language
2014-04-24T10:26:48Z z0d: Hungarian notation is my poiting device!
2014-04-24T10:26:59Z z0d: in*
2014-04-24T10:29:21Z iron_houzi: ecraven: Thank you, but is it wrong to use 'apply' on the varargs?
2014-04-24T10:29:25Z ecraven: Riastradh: related, can you tell me about any "data type" that I could look at to see how to correctly write the gcfinalizer for the GC?
2014-04-24T10:29:51Z ecraven: iron_houzi: no, it is rather common to have something like (lambda (a b . rest) (something a b) (apply other rest))
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2014-04-24T10:32:04Z iron_houzi: ecraven: OK. But what confuses me is that I need zero or more args..
2014-04-24T10:32:19Z ecraven: iron_houzi: (lambda rest body)
2014-04-24T10:32:23Z ecraven: (no parentheses)
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2014-04-24T10:34:38Z iron_houzi: Ah. OK. Thank you so much.
2014-04-24T10:34:47Z ecraven: welcome :)
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2014-04-24T10:52:15Z Black0range: Hey guys i have a funny little problem (might be gambit specific) but when making a macro there is a begin block that disappears. Anyone know anything about that?
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2014-04-24T10:53:11Z ijp: what do you mean disappears?
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2014-04-24T10:55:09Z Black0range: well i have this piece of the macro that goes ´( (cond stuff.. (else (begin ,@body))))
2014-04-24T10:56:10Z ijp: ah, well, the begin is redundant there anyway
2014-04-24T10:56:15Z Black0range: when expanding that the begin thing completely deissapears making adding defines impossible :(
2014-04-24T10:57:12Z ijp: you're not supposed to be able to add defines there, per the scheme standard, but you can try (let () ...) instead
2014-04-24T10:58:23Z Black0range: hmm isn't let technically a ((lambda () code)) ?
2014-04-24T10:58:35Z ijp: yes
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2014-04-24T11:00:01Z Black0range:  ((lambda () (letrec ….
2014-04-24T11:00:06Z Black0range: oh this is funny the macro expander now replaced all my defines with  that
2014-04-24T11:00:12Z ijp: rudybot: (let () (define x 3) x)
2014-04-24T11:00:12Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 3
2014-04-24T11:00:35Z ijp: Black0range: which is fine
2014-04-24T11:01:06Z Black0range: yup, well thanks for the help :)
2014-04-24T11:07:54Z ecraven: ah, stupid Xlib, wrapping GCs in a struct :-/
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2014-04-24T11:19:14Z zacts: morning scheme hackers
2014-04-24T11:24:07Z ecraven: zacts: morning :)
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2014-04-24T11:35:20Z taylanub: Black0range: Using `define' in the beginning of a `lambda' body (or `let' or ...) is *equivalent* to using `letrec' (or `letrec*', I forgot, might've changed between standards too), it could be said to be mere syntactic sugar for letrec usage.  It's called "internal define" when used like that by the way
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2014-04-24T11:40:32Z zacts: taylanub: except that letrec can be used in the place of any expression, while define cannot, right?
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2014-04-24T11:41:05Z ijp: zacts: which doesn't matter at the beginning of a <body>
2014-04-24T11:41:55Z taylanub: zacts: Didn't mean to imply there's a two-way relation; internal defines can always be turned into a letrec, not necessarily the other way around
2014-04-24T11:43:03Z Black0range: taylanub: I allawys thought all kinds of let etc was "sugar" for defines. But are per standard defines only for global level?
2014-04-24T11:43:59Z Black0range: i mean in some cases using lets should be unnecessarily slow?
2014-04-24T11:44:00Z taylanub: Black0range: Nope, lets are sugar for lambda, except that letrecs are special in that they temporarily bind variables to a "void" value that errors when it's referenced
2014-04-24T11:44:25Z ijp: why would let be slow?
2014-04-24T11:44:37Z Black0range: should clarify i mean "slow"
2014-04-24T11:44:53Z ijp: "whatever" "you" "mean" "it's" "stupid"
2014-04-24T11:45:06Z Black0range: :P
2014-04-24T11:45:12Z Black0range: thank you
2014-04-24T11:45:45Z zacts: taylanub: and also letrec allows for recursive definitions right?
2014-04-24T11:45:54Z Black0range: i mean running a procedure when you just want a block of code where you want local variables
2014-04-24T11:46:12Z Black0range: zacts: letrecs initates all the variables first then sets the values
2014-04-24T11:46:14Z ijp: zacts: as does define
2014-04-24T11:46:22Z vraid: Black0range: (let ([x 5]) ...)  is like ((lambda (x) ...) 5)
2014-04-24T11:46:24Z ijp: Black0range: that's a bad implementation of let
2014-04-24T11:46:26Z zacts: ijp: indeed
2014-04-24T11:46:46Z ijp: letrec*
2014-04-24T11:47:20Z ijp: or at least, more specific than necessary
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2014-04-24T11:51:02Z Black0range: hmm regarding all this are begins also ((lambda () ...))?
2014-04-24T11:51:40Z taylanub: Black0range: No, there's two types of begins and they both aren't equivalent to lambda.
2014-04-24T11:51:48Z taylanub: (Three types in R7RS.)
2014-04-24T11:52:56Z taylanub: Black0range: The RnRS are your friends, might be difficult to read if you're not used to the prose but I'd try it out.
2014-04-24T11:52:56Z ijp: Black0range: your earlier example is one such difference
2014-04-24T11:54:10Z Black0range: Hmm might as well do that, Using gambit that runs r5rs should i start there or earlier?
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2014-04-24T11:54:53Z taylanub: Black0range: latest standard is fine, I'd just go for R7RS-small
2014-04-24T11:55:24Z taylanub: it mostly overlaps with R5RS anyway
2014-04-24T11:56:27Z Black0range: Will do that :)
2014-04-24T11:56:53Z Black0range: Also since i'm on a stupid questions spee! :) just wondering what scheme impementations do you see as the best ones and why? :)
2014-04-24T11:56:59Z ijp: taylanub: except now he will be confused when gambit doesn't imlement that module system etc.
2014-04-24T11:57:26Z taylanub: I'd say that's a more or less trivial difference :P
2014-04-24T11:57:50Z taylanub: and it's good to know it, will hopefully be adopted by most
2014-04-24T11:58:22Z Black0range: ijp: I think I read somewhere that Marc will merge to R7RS so don't worry :)
2014-04-24T11:58:52Z ijp: taylanub: and then everyone will pervert it in umpteen different
2014-04-24T11:58:55Z ijp: ways*
2014-04-24T11:59:12Z taylanub: nah, R7RS-large will come to save the day!
2014-04-24T11:59:26Z ijp: I'm not even going to dignify that with a response
2014-04-24T11:59:46Z taylanub: and you can pry my delusions out of my cold, dead hands
2014-04-24T12:00:04Z Black0range: *grabs popcorn*
2014-04-24T12:01:11Z taylanub: jokes aside, I wonder now all the things the R7RS-small module system lacks
2014-04-24T12:02:04Z taylanub: oh also Guile supports it now so I should see if I can make my bytestructures module use it
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2014-04-24T13:03:57Z visualshock: How can I test that my stream-map works correct?
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2014-04-24T13:07:40Z vraid: visualshock: turn the result into a list and compare it to a list map?
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2014-04-24T13:53:36Z Riastradh: ecraven, you might use <http://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/mit-scheme-sqlite3/> as an example.  You'll need primitives X-ALLOCATE-GC like SQLITE3-ALLOCATE (with `GC' instead of `sqlite3 *'), X-CREATE-GC like SQLITE3-OPEN, and XFreeGC like SQLITE3-CLOSE.
2014-04-24T13:54:38Z ecraven: Riastradh: thank you! there really should be a proper X11 interface, the entire x11term thing is rather hacky :-/
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2014-04-24T13:55:11Z Riastradh: On the Scheme side, you'll need a structure type GC (or perhaps `XGC' or `X-GC' to avoid confusion with the garbage collector) with a descriptor like the SQLITE3 structure type.  The descriptor is a small byte vector holding the C `GC' object, which is probably a pointer to a `struct _GC' or something.
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2014-04-24T13:57:15Z Riastradh: The Scheme X-CREATE-GC will work basically like SQLITE3-OPEN, modulo the error-checking in that sqlite3 code: (let ((gc (make-x-gc))) (add-to-gc-finalizer! x-gc-finalizer gc) ((ucode-primitive X-CREATE-GC 123) "mauve" 32 123 3.14159 (x-gc.descriptor gc)))
2014-04-24T13:57:45Z Riastradh: (You don't need the extra indirection of the SQLITE3-DESCRIPTOR structure type -- that is there only to guarantee closure of all statements created by Scheme for that database.)
2014-04-24T13:58:43Z ecraven: ok, I'll look into that, thanks!
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2014-04-24T14:07:36Z ecraven: Riastradh: I'll also have to work directly in x11term.c, right? I probably can't just add a new file?
2014-04-24T14:08:06Z z0d: ecraven: what are you writing?
2014-04-24T14:08:40Z Riastradh: The GC management should be in x11base.c.
2014-04-24T14:08:42Z ecraven: z0d: trying to get colours into Edwin, which means I'll need to add new primitives to deal with GCs
2014-04-24T14:08:56Z Riastradh: Hmm.
2014-04-24T14:09:27Z Riastradh: Instead of using the byte vector holding a pointer like I did for the sqlite3 code, you should probably just reuse the allocation table stuff in x11base.c.
2014-04-24T14:09:51Z ecraven: so an x_gc_table?
2014-04-24T14:09:54Z Riastradh: Then the X GC descriptor will be a small integer rather than a byte vector holding a pointer, and you can reuse allocation_table_*.
2014-04-24T14:09:58Z Riastradh: Yes.
2014-04-24T14:10:25Z ecraven: *should* I be able to just add primitives, re-compile, and test them?
2014-04-24T14:10:35Z ecraven: or do I need some magic to make it work when adding primitives?
2014-04-24T14:11:39Z Riastradh: You will need to add primitive declarations to prx11.c too.
2014-04-24T14:11:45Z Riastradh: Hmm, no.
2014-04-24T14:11:57Z Riastradh: Just to dload_initialize_x11base in x11base.c.
2014-04-24T14:13:33Z ecraven: Riastradh: XCreateGC takes quite some optional arguments to fully initialize the GC, would it be ok to pass an alist that I then parse in C?
2014-04-24T14:15:02Z ecraven: (x-create-gc display drawable `((,GCForeground . #xff0000) (,GCBackground . #x00ffff))) or something similar
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2014-04-24T14:15:16Z ecraven: specifically for XGCValues and valuemask in http://tronche.com/gui/x/xlib/GC/XCreateGC.html
2014-04-24T14:15:20Z Riastradh: Better to do the same kind of mask/structure thing.
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2014-04-24T14:15:55Z ecraven: a custom record type?
2014-04-24T14:16:26Z ecraven: should I even expose all of this? or just the "necessary" bits for edwin?
2014-04-24T14:16:36Z Riastradh: No, just a vector.  Use the same element positions in the vector as bit positions in the mask.
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2014-04-24T14:17:06Z ecraven: there's probably no use for anything except background, foreground and maybe font
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2014-04-24T14:18:09Z Riastradh: Sure, you can omit most of it for now, if you like.
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2014-04-24T14:26:32Z iron_houzi: Are there builtin procedures for checking if an element is in a list?
2014-04-24T14:26:56Z oleo: member
2014-04-24T14:27:03Z oleo: member?
2014-04-24T14:27:13Z vraid: member, memv, memq
2014-04-24T14:27:15Z oleo: i think scheme predicates use alot of ?'s
2014-04-24T14:27:35Z oleo: v is the vector version ?
2014-04-24T14:27:46Z oleo: and memq is what ?
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2014-04-24T14:28:54Z vraid: member uses equal?, memv uses eqv?, memq uses eq?
2014-04-24T14:29:31Z oleo: hmm, that sound more like it....tho i don't know....
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2014-04-24T14:31:09Z ecraven: same naming scheme as assq, assv and assoc
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2014-04-24T14:32:03Z iron_houzi: Thanks
2014-04-24T14:35:00Z pjdelport: oleo: note that memq/memv/member lack the ? because they return the match directly, if there is one, rather than #t
2014-04-24T14:35:12Z oleo: allright
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2014-04-24T14:37:42Z vraid: they don't return the match; they return the list, starting from the found element
2014-04-24T14:37:51Z vraid: or, if nothing was found, #f
2014-04-24T14:38:19Z pjdelport: right; the matching cons, is what I meant :)
2014-04-24T14:38:34Z vraid: right :)
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2014-04-24T14:45:38Z oleo: cl seems to have only member, but then you can use :test #'eql etc....
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2014-04-24T17:10:25Z visualshock: I am trying to learn streams, can someone explain this error to me? http://pastebin.com/Gqz6pSN4
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2014-04-24T17:12:12Z ecraven: visualshock: also paste how you created x and the definition of all relevant functions
2014-04-24T17:12:25Z ijp: eww, odd streams
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2014-04-24T17:15:48Z visualshock: here is the rest http://pastebin.com/zTu3Gp6u
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2014-04-24T17:17:35Z ijp: as an aside, that code will not behave correctly when the streams you are mapping over have different lengths
2014-04-24T17:18:19Z ijp: but the failure is that in x, you are not mapping over streams
2014-04-24T17:19:22Z ijp: so you are trying to do stream-cdr on '(1 2 3) and '(1 2 3), and failing because you can't force '(2 3)
2014-04-24T17:20:39Z visualshock: ijp, okey, is my stream-map wrong or I am just using it wrong?
2014-04-24T17:21:02Z ijp: well, I'd say the latter
2014-04-24T17:21:44Z ijp: you'll want to convert the lists to streams first
2014-04-24T17:23:36Z visualshock: Do you have any examples?
2014-04-24T17:24:31Z ecraven: visualshock: usually you also have stream-cons to create streams
2014-04-24T17:24:42Z ecraven: also, why does stream-car not force?
2014-04-24T17:25:10Z ijp: cons -> cons-stream, null -> empty-stream
2014-04-24T17:25:22Z ijp: recurse on the cdr as per usual
2014-04-24T17:27:48Z visualshock: ecraven, because car is not delayed
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2014-04-24T17:28:33Z ijp: ecraven: hence my "eww, odd streams" remark
2014-04-24T17:29:57Z ecraven: visualshock: why would it not be, until it is needed?
2014-04-24T17:30:02Z ecraven: ijp: indeed :)
2014-04-24T17:30:24Z ecraven: ah, I wish more of MIT/GNU Scheme's core was written in Scheme instead of C macrology
2014-04-24T17:32:01Z gnomon subtly shoves a scheme48 in ecraven's direction
2014-04-24T17:32:44Z iron_houzi: Is stream-map implemented by using memoization in r5rs?
2014-04-24T17:32:57Z ijp: stream-map isn't implemented in r5rs at all
2014-04-24T17:33:25Z ijp: but delay itself gets memoized
2014-04-24T17:33:45Z ijp: rudybot: (define foo (delay (begin (display "bar") 'baz)))
2014-04-24T17:33:45Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2014-04-24T17:33:49Z ijp: rudybot: (force foo)
2014-04-24T17:33:49Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 'baz
2014-04-24T17:33:50Z rudybot: ijp: ; stdout: "bar"
2014-04-24T17:33:52Z ijp: rudybot: (force foo)
2014-04-24T17:33:52Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: 'baz
2014-04-24T17:34:46Z ecraven: gnomon: I wish that had gone anywhere :-/
2014-04-24T17:36:56Z iron_houzi: ijp: Thank you ever so much sir!
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2014-04-24T18:34:51Z iron_houzi: I need to do a "memq"-like operation on all memoized elements in a stream. Is this possible in r5rs?
2014-04-24T18:35:20Z iron_houzi: ..some way to check if the stream element is memoized or not..
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2014-04-24T21:58:31Z vraid: ptcek: you can't boss me around
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2014-04-24T21:59:01Z ijp: rudybot: boss vraid about
2014-04-24T21:59:02Z rudybot: ijp: vraid++
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2014-04-24T21:59:31Z vraid: good rudybot
2014-04-24T21:59:39Z zacts: vraid: lol
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2014-04-25T00:53:59Z zacts: LeoNerd: hey, you should check out this frons stuff. I wonder if it would be applicable to the event reflexive stuff.
2014-04-25T00:54:17Z zacts: it seems like a nice little abstraction
2014-04-25T00:54:38Z zacts: and guy steele gives a time-sharing system as an example
2014-04-25T00:55:03Z zacts: LeoNerd: http://projects.csail.mit.edu/wiki/pub/JoeNear/FernMonad/frons.pdf
2014-04-25T00:55:04Z zacts: and
2014-04-25T00:55:24Z zacts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHP7P_HlcBk
2014-04-25T00:55:39Z zacts: the frons stuff is at 17 min and 20 sec through that lecture
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2014-04-25T01:09:53Z zacts: the time-sharing stuff sounds like it might be similar to a system that has deferred editor commands, for example. don't know.. it just reminded me of event reflexive for some reason.
2014-04-25T01:10:06Z LeoNerd: Hmmm.. I'll take a look
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2014-04-25T01:10:27Z zacts: if I'm completely off, sorry. but frons is cool either way.
2014-04-25T01:11:49Z zacts: yeah, let me know if it applies at all to your stuff. :-)
2014-04-25T01:13:06Z LeoNerd: I tend to have a good memory for good ideas, so even if this one isn't E-R, I'll likely remember it anyway
2014-04-25T01:15:55Z zacts: cool
2014-04-25T01:16:25Z zacts: the main thing that interested me is how much it really reduced the complexity of the time-sharing system he was talking about.
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2014-04-25T01:18:59Z zacts: and the last we chatted about E-R, you mentioned similar complexity problems with your system.
2014-04-25T01:19:37Z zacts: so just food for thought, but do ping me if you are interested, as I would love to chat about it.
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2014-04-25T01:39:43Z zacts: sorry it's exactly at 17 minutes, he explains the basics of it at 17 min..
2014-04-25T01:39:51Z zacts: hm.. yeah.
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2014-04-25T04:28:50Z zacts: --
2014-04-25T04:28:59Z zacts: lo, so I'm almost done with the little schemer
2014-04-25T04:29:11Z zacts: it's cool
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2014-04-25T06:17:29Z ski: zacts : "E-R" ?
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2014-04-25T06:31:14Z zacts: ski: Event Reflexive
2014-04-25T06:31:43Z zacts: ski: It's LeoNerd's idea
2014-04-25T06:34:46Z NinjaPenguin: This is a stupid question, but what'd be a favoured Scheme interpreter for Linux?
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2014-04-25T06:36:14Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: depends on what you want to do
2014-04-25T06:36:36Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2014-04-25T06:36:36Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/b3fjhzx
2014-04-25T06:36:40Z NinjaPenguin: zacts: I'm new to Scheme and wanted to try it out.
2014-04-25T06:36:48Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: cool! welcome!
2014-04-25T06:36:50Z gnomon: NinjaPenguin, that's not a stupid question, but it is one without an easy answer - or rather with quite a few easy answers, which more or less reduces to the same problem.  Racket is well-regarded, though it is a very large distribution of several languages, one of which includes Scheme.
2014-04-25T06:37:31Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: are you following any books / tutorials?
2014-04-25T06:39:25Z zacts: ski: http://leonerds-code.blogspot.com/
2014-04-25T06:42:33Z zacts: ski: he wants to make a new text editor using this idea, and has a few perl modules and a circle irc client which uses this idea.
2014-04-25T06:42:50Z zacts: ski: /join #vim-mutiny or #circle for more ideas..
2014-04-25T06:43:19Z NinjaPenguin: Thank you. I'm used to programming languages that have one or two most used interpreters/compilers, so seeing that Scheme had quite a few of them confused me. I'm currently not following any book or tutorial. I need to be right back, have some work to do.
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2014-04-25T06:44:06Z zacts: ok
2014-04-25T06:44:45Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: well if you have a math background - @ least one year of Calculus, you may want to check out the book SICP 'Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs'.
2014-04-25T06:45:02Z zacts: if you want to just get a feel for things for fun, the Little Schemer books are good
2014-04-25T06:45:13Z zacts: there are also other tutorials listed on schemers.org
2014-04-25T06:55:52Z NinjaPenguin: Thanks! I'll make sure to check them out. I don't have a mathematical background, but it wouldn't hurt to check SICP out.
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2014-04-25T07:00:38Z NinjaPenguin: Racket seems to be a strongly recommended interpreter/compiler, especially for new Scheme programmers. I'll start with it and use another one if in need.
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2014-04-25T07:03:19Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: if you don't have a math background the book Scheme and the Art of Programming is a good intro to SICP, imo
2014-04-25T07:04:15Z zacts: NinjaPenguin: the four most popular implementations that I know of are: guile / racket / chicken / mit-scheme
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2014-04-25T08:48:06Z zacts: I'm at ch 10 of the little schemer, I'm going to re-read ch 8 - 10 again, to make sure my mind wraps around everything.
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2014-04-25T09:04:05Z zacts: I think I'm about to create an example of frons and the fern data type to pastebin, either tonight or tomorrow, hopefully.
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2014-04-25T09:05:19Z nalaginrut: pipeline style coding http://goo.gl/bvn5Iz
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2014-04-25T09:55:31Z zacts: LeoNerd: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/pub/techreports/TR72.pdf
2014-04-25T09:56:17Z ijp: zacts: https://gist.github.com/ijp/10435657
2014-04-25T09:56:34Z ijp: hmm, wait, according to that gist, it was you I wrote it for originally
2014-04-25T09:56:45Z ijp whistles innocently
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2014-04-25T09:59:15Z zacts: ijp: was this in regards to letrec or something?
2014-04-25T09:59:22Z zacts: implementing letrec?
2014-04-25T09:59:44Z ijp: zacts: just something to think about while you were rereading the "why of Y" chapter
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2014-04-25T10:00:04Z zacts: oh the Little Schemer?
2014-04-25T10:03:37Z ijp: there is actually a very simple way to come up with Y if you already know what a fixed point combinator is
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2014-04-25T10:05:06Z zacts: I'm not that far yet..
2014-04-25T10:05:25Z ijp: ping me when you think you have it, I want to test out my explanation
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2014-04-25T14:43:17Z NinjaPenguin: Hold on, is Scheme now known as Racket? Are they the same language or did I misunderstand "In June 2010, PLT Scheme was renamed to “Racket”, and DrScheme became “DrRacket”."
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2014-04-25T14:43:55Z Riastradh: PLT Scheme is now known as Racket.  Scheme is still known as Scheme.
2014-04-25T14:44:43Z NinjaPenguin: Ah, alright. Thanks!
2014-04-25T14:45:03Z NinjaPenguin: I'd ask one more thing, can Racket compile Scheme?
2014-04-25T14:49:50Z stamourv: Yes.
2014-04-25T14:50:04Z NinjaPenguin: Sorry, meant to have "IDE" after Racket.
2014-04-25T14:50:10Z stamourv: Racket comes with a number of supported languages, which include R5 and R6 scheme.
2014-04-25T14:50:19Z stamourv: And the Racket language itself is mostly a superset of Scheme.
2014-04-25T14:52:30Z NinjaPenguin: Alright, thanks. I'm on Windows now and too lazy to get my laptop so I thought I'd install an IDE or a compiler/interpreter and code in vim.
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2014-04-25T14:56:57Z stamourv: Racket has good windows support.
2014-04-25T14:57:15Z stamourv: And has Windows binaries available for download.
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2014-04-25T15:35:51Z NinjaPenguin: Erm, would I choose R5RS for Scheme?
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2014-04-25T15:37:50Z ijp: why indeed
2014-04-25T15:38:58Z stamourv: NinjaPenguin: Depends for what.
2014-04-25T15:39:15Z NinjaPenguin: :D
2014-04-25T15:39:18Z NinjaPenguin: Oh god.
2014-04-25T15:39:27Z stamourv: For writing medium to large programs, it's missing a lot of things.
2014-04-25T15:39:37Z NinjaPenguin: I just want to try this language out. :<
2014-04-25T15:39:48Z stamourv: For learning, it's got too many things.
2014-04-25T15:40:00Z stamourv: I recommend checking out HTDP.
2014-04-25T15:40:10Z stamourv: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/
2014-04-25T15:40:26Z stamourv: I uses teaching languages that are subsets of Scheme.
2014-04-25T15:40:45Z stamourv: That way, you don't get confused by the sharp bits of the language until you're ready to understand them.
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2014-04-25T16:21:26Z theseb: stamourv: i like that...yea.....beginners torturing themselves to understand every little fact of R5RS is unnecessary
2014-04-25T16:22:03Z theseb: stamourv: in fact....why not NEVER use all the features of R5RS...just learn the bits you want/need!
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2014-04-25T17:08:40Z stamourv: theseb: It's not just that. If you happen to have the advanced features lying around, you may accidentally refer to them while trying to do something else, and you end up with unhelpful error messages.
2014-04-25T17:08:49Z stamourv: Language subsetting is the way to go.
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2014-04-25T17:25:04Z theseb: stamourv: i used to try to be a "language lawyer" but it is too exhausing trying to learn every corner case of C/Java/Python/Scheme
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2014-04-25T22:07:39Z beyhugonba: well
2014-04-25T22:07:42Z beyhugonba: they want me to learn perl
2014-04-25T22:07:47Z beyhugonba: but
2014-04-25T22:07:55Z beyhugonba: I think i shall learn scheme instead!
2014-04-25T22:07:56Z beyhugonba: f em!
2014-04-25T22:08:56Z beyhugonba is now known as chaotic_good
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2014-04-25T22:24:54Z chaotic_good: schemers
2014-04-25T22:30:54Z ski: Herr Gavino.
2014-04-25T22:32:27Z zacts: ski: the troll?
2014-04-25T22:34:52Z ski: well, maybe chaotic_good isn't gavino
2014-04-25T22:35:03Z samth: ski: nope, it is
2014-04-25T22:35:18Z ski: (gavino has used "chaotic_evil" before, though, iirc)
2014-04-25T22:36:00Z chaotic_good: I am not a troll
2014-04-25T22:36:23Z ski: but are you gavino ?
2014-04-25T22:36:28Z chaotic_good: of course
2014-04-25T22:37:07Z chaotic_good: not sure how samth is so sure, wonder what tipped him off?
2014-04-25T22:37:43Z chaotic_good: heh
2014-04-25T22:38:40Z zacts: http://agaton.scsys.co.uk/~matthewt/gavino.txt
2014-04-25T22:38:50Z chaotic_good: whats this?
2014-04-25T22:39:00Z chaotic_good: defamation no doubt
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2014-04-25T22:40:09Z chaotic_good is now known as ferret_commander
2014-04-25T22:40:17Z ferret_commander: this is some hysterical stuff
2014-04-25T22:40:21Z ferret_commander: lol
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2014-04-25T22:42:25Z ferret_commander: so gents lets discuss!
2014-04-25T22:42:30Z ferret_commander: as the wub would day
2014-04-25T22:46:04Z zacts ignores ferret_commander 
2014-04-25T22:46:08Z ferret_commander: name based virtual hosts on a 64 cpu machine running which scheme appserver would perform nicely serving a busy set of websites?
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2014-04-25T23:02:10Z ski: (oh, 'twas "lawful_ful", it seems)
2014-04-25T23:02:58Z ski: (er, "lawful_evil" ..)
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2014-04-26T01:38:19Z leo2007: I am building mit-scheme from source and I cannot figure out how to install the info docs.
2014-04-26T01:38:44Z Riastradh: cd mit-scheme/doc && ./configure && make && make install?
2014-04-26T01:39:28Z leo2007: there is no doc/configure
2014-04-26T01:39:43Z leo2007: but configure.ac
2014-04-26T01:39:45Z Riastradh: Did you get it from Git?
2014-04-26T01:39:51Z Riastradh: If so, you need to run autoconf to generate configure from configure.ac.
2014-04-26T01:40:00Z leo2007: OK, thanks
2014-04-26T01:40:26Z leo2007: I thought that it would be generated by Setup.sh.
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2014-04-26T01:52:17Z leo2007: how to jump to the source of a variable in edwin?
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2014-04-26T04:28:57Z offby1: I'd assume M-.
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2014-04-26T09:14:28Z leo2007: that was `find-tag'.
2014-04-26T09:14:34Z leo2007: s/was/is/
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2014-04-26T13:05:00Z zacts: LeoNerd: have you had a chance to check out that frons stuff?
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2014-04-26T14:57:45Z zacts: sup
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2014-04-26T15:10:52Z offby1: dine
2014-04-26T15:11:21Z Riastradh: newton
2014-04-26T15:16:07Z zacts: fig
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2014-04-26T15:34:23Z zacts: ijp: what was that Y-combinator stuff the other day? I lost the link to your pastebin.
2014-04-26T15:34:36Z zacts: it was a mutal recursion or something
2014-04-26T15:36:29Z ijp: https://gist.github.com/ijp/10435657
2014-04-26T15:36:59Z zacts: cool
2014-04-26T15:38:36Z zacts: that's pretty cool ijp
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2014-04-26T15:38:58Z zacts: so you can define letrec using a form of Y
2014-04-26T15:39:50Z ijp: it doesn't work for things like (letrec ((x (stream-cons 1 x))) x)
2014-04-26T15:39:51Z zacts: and that's within only 16 lines of code
2014-04-26T15:41:12Z ijp: at least, I don't think it does
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2014-04-26T15:45:06Z ijp: yeah, it fails
2014-04-26T15:45:47Z zacts: ijp: does the SICP interpreter implement letrec?
2014-04-26T15:46:15Z ijp: it's an exercise
2014-04-26T15:46:22Z zacts: oh cool
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2014-04-26T15:50:18Z zacts: well, I need to review my calculus, while at the same time I have ideas for teaching it. I wonder if there are any resources which use scheme / octave / matlab for teaching calculus.
2014-04-26T15:50:43Z zacts: I'm actually working on my math review today for a class that starts in a couple of weeks at my college.
2014-04-26T15:51:29Z ijp: differentiation was one of the problems that led mccarthy to create lisp, IIRC
2014-04-26T15:52:05Z zacts: ijp: that sussman functional differential geometry is really pedogogically interesting to me
2014-04-26T15:52:24Z ijp: also, M-x calc in emacs can do calculus
2014-04-26T15:52:43Z ijp: which is a very important feature in a text editor IMO
2014-04-26T15:52:51Z zacts: ijp: indeed :D
2014-04-26T15:53:44Z offby1: M-x calc can do ... damned near anything
2014-04-26T15:54:11Z zacts: but the idea of teaching math via programming languages first and then the notation as icing on the cake, is a great idea to me
2014-04-26T15:54:18Z zacts: math/calc
2014-04-26T15:57:59Z zacts: http://library.wolfram.com/infocenter/Books/5222/
2014-04-26T15:58:06Z zacts: ^ something like that seems interesting to me
2014-04-26T15:58:44Z zacts: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/functional-differential-geometry
2014-04-26T15:58:57Z zacts: (forgot to paste sussman's new book)
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2014-04-26T16:08:22Z ski sadly thinks lots of calculus and analysis books uses atrocious (ambiguous) notation for derivatives
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2014-04-26T16:09:29Z ski: (the problem seems to stem from mixing incompatible notations together; the root problem seems to be confusion between `f' and `f(x)', a function and the value of a function in a point)
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2014-04-26T16:10:59Z ijp: well, calculus has had weird notation from the beginning, thank you mr. newton
2014-04-26T16:11:55Z ijp: that dot notation has mostly fell out of favour, I think
2014-04-26T16:11:58Z ski: well, fluxions more or less seem to be targeted to using dynamic scope for time
2014-04-26T16:12:01Z rszeno: calculus is a convention, if you follow the rules there is nothing weird, :)
2014-04-26T16:12:27Z ski: rszeno : depends highly on the book and the teacher
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2014-04-26T16:13:10Z rszeno: yes, this could be a source of confusion, :)
2014-04-26T16:15:12Z rszeno: math and differential geometry, a book with definitions, only definitions: http://www.geometry.org/tex/conc/differential_geometry_reconstructed.html
2014-04-26T16:15:46Z ijp: sounds rivetting
2014-04-26T16:15:47Z ski: e.g. if ⌜f(x,y) = x²·y - y³' then obviously ⌜f′ₓ(2·t,-t)⌝ is nonsense
2014-04-26T16:15:52Z ijp snores
2014-04-26T16:17:02Z leo2007: zacts: that books isn't freely available, right?
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2014-04-26T16:17:37Z rszeno: leo2007, as far as i know the draft is free
2014-04-26T16:17:38Z zacts: leo2007: the sussman book is freely available from csail.mit.edu.
2014-04-26T16:18:13Z zacts: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/6946/calculus-indexed.pdf
2014-04-26T16:18:15Z ski: mbishop : btw, does your "List of popular programming book acronyms" at <http://web.archive.org/web/20080918051833/http://mbishop.esoteriq.org/stuff/books.txt> have a new home somewhere, perchance ?
2014-04-26T16:18:15Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/advatfh
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2014-04-26T16:19:36Z leo2007: zacts: I love MIT!
2014-04-26T16:20:02Z leo2007: zacts: is that sussman's book?
2014-04-26T16:20:19Z leo2007: ok yes, sorry my download speed is not good.
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2014-04-26T16:21:19Z rszeno: leo2007, you asked about sussman's book if is free or about the other one? :)
2014-04-26T16:22:37Z leo2007: the other one? you meant sicp?
2014-04-26T16:23:18Z rszeno: no, the math book, the link i posted
2014-04-26T16:24:38Z zacts: rszeno: I think leo2007 was referring to the sussman book
2014-04-26T16:25:21Z rszeno: zacts, ok, thank you, :)
2014-04-26T16:25:43Z ijp: less pronouns people
2014-04-26T16:25:54Z leo2007: ;)
2014-04-26T16:26:21Z zacts: ijp: indefinite pronouns are ridiculous, right?
2014-04-26T16:26:56Z zacts: ski: right, so why not a curriculum that teaches the concepts first and various notation second
2014-04-26T16:27:21Z zacts: that's kind of like the Sussman / SICP approach
2014-04-26T16:27:27Z zacts: since scheme has no syntax basically
2014-04-26T16:28:40Z zacts: criticism / comments are welcome. what do you guys think?
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2014-04-26T16:29:48Z ski: well, there's pragmatic reasons for having both Leibniz (and maybe Newton) notation and Lagrange / Euler notation (the variant applying to functions)
2014-04-26T16:29:53Z ijp: you can't teach something without a notation
2014-04-26T16:30:04Z ijp: well, not programming
2014-04-26T16:30:28Z ski: the former being the pointful and the latter the (ahem) pointless notation
2014-04-26T16:30:34Z ski: (pointless aka pointfree)
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2014-04-26T16:32:32Z ski: in sexps, they'd correspond to a something like `(derivative f)' vs. `(differentiate (x) ..x..)', the latter *re*binding the variable `x'
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2014-04-26T16:33:29Z ski: zacts : criticism / comments on what ?
2014-04-26T16:34:07Z ski: zacts : the Sussman book ? some new to-be-written book "that teaches the concepts first and various notation second" ?
2014-04-26T16:34:40Z zacts: the latter
2014-04-26T16:35:46Z ski: well, i think i'd agree with ijp here
2014-04-26T16:36:07Z ijp: zacts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhaskara_I%27s_sine_approximation_formula
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2014-04-26T16:36:18Z ijp: compare the textual description with the notational one below it
2014-04-26T16:36:37Z zacts: hm.. I also found this - http://www.oreillyschool.com/making-math/courses/calculus1/
2014-04-26T16:36:49Z ski: you need some notation to discuss the concepts (unless you prefer going back, pre-symbolic-revolution era, to describing everything with words, or some syncopated style)
2014-04-26T16:37:12Z zacts: ski: well of course, but that notation could initially be mathematica / something like that, right?
2014-04-26T16:37:25Z ijp: I wish I was taught that formula (and derivation) when I was taught trig, it's very simple, and a pretty good approximation
2014-04-26T16:37:35Z ski: and if you're going to introduce a notation, i'd prefer it to not be a defective notation, so as to not teach bad habits, perpetuating the problem
2014-04-26T16:38:17Z ski: zacts : i don't know Mathematica in depth, but by impression is that it's a bit ad hoc
2014-04-26T16:38:41Z ijp: anyway, I think that side-by-side comparison should convince you of the value of good notation
2014-04-26T16:38:51Z rszeno: this means to solve two problems in the same time, both difficult to solve, i doubt is possible
2014-04-26T16:40:02Z zacts: rszeno: what are you referring to? the oreillyschool link?
2014-04-26T16:40:27Z LeoNerd: zacts: Not yet. This weekend is super-busy with theatrical rehearsal
2014-04-26T16:40:37Z rszeno: learning both, notations/concepts and programming
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2014-04-26T16:40:56Z zacts: LeoNerd: ah, cool!
2014-04-26T16:41:07Z rszeno: this is the sin of most scheme books, in my opinion
2014-04-26T16:41:44Z zacts: rszeno: well programming books in general. but scheme has the least notation of almost any language I've seen
2014-04-26T16:41:51Z zacts: s/notation/syntax/
2014-04-26T16:42:48Z zacts: LeoNerd: the interesting stuff is in how the fern datatype is implemented, but we can perhaps chat next week or so..
2014-04-26T16:43:19Z zacts: rszeno: and also read the intro to that new sussman book about notation vs concepts
2014-04-26T16:43:59Z rszeno: sorry don't know which one? a link?
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2014-04-26T16:44:25Z zacts: oh, sure
2014-04-26T16:44:54Z zacts: rszeno: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/functional-differential-geometry
2014-04-26T16:44:58Z zacts: the overview
2014-04-26T16:45:16Z rszeno: thank you
2014-04-26T16:46:16Z zacts: rszeno: I'm hoping to apply that philosophy to the teaching/learning of calc
2014-04-26T16:47:00Z zacts: somehow, if possible
2014-04-26T16:47:13Z rszeno: i must admit i found first edition difficult to follow
2014-04-26T16:47:20Z ijp: the proper split is basic-methods + intuition ("calculus made easy" style), then a second version where you go back and do it "properly" with limits
2014-04-26T16:47:50Z zacts: ijp: so you think that it might be an interesting approach?
2014-04-26T16:47:55Z ski thinks Synthetic Differential Geometry is interesting
2014-04-26T16:48:06Z ijp: mixing the two is a bigger problem then OMG dx/dy
2014-04-26T16:48:44Z ijp: actually, liebnitz's notation is a very good one for a first course
2014-04-26T16:49:25Z kilimanjaro: agreed
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2014-04-26T16:49:56Z ski: (⌜d y / d x⌝ isn't a problem, ⌜d f / d x⌝ and ⌜y′⌝ and ⌜Dₓ y⌝ (to a lesser degree) is)
2014-04-26T16:50:17Z ski: ijp : yes
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2014-04-26T16:50:33Z kilimanjaro: i'm not sure that notation is as big of a problem as some would make it out to be
2014-04-26T16:51:02Z ski: here's a quote :
2014-04-26T16:51:11Z kilimanjaro: it is bad if a student is writing something and they don't know the meaning of the symbols on their paper
2014-04-26T16:51:18Z ski:   The notation of elementary school arithmetic, which nowadays everyone takes for granted, took centuries to develop. There was an intermediate stage called _syncopation_, using abbreviations for the words for addition, square, root, _etc_.  For example Rafael Bombelli (_c_. 1560) would write
2014-04-26T16:51:25Z ski:     R. c. L. 2 p. di m. 11 L       for our       ∛ {2 + 11·_i_}.
2014-04-26T16:51:31Z ski:   Many professional mathematicians to this day use the quantifiers (⌜∀⌝,⌜∃⌝) in a similar fashion,
2014-04-26T16:51:32Z kilimanjaro: but i think that the most common affliction is poor algebra skills
2014-04-26T16:51:40Z ski:     ∃ δ > 0 s.t. |f(x) - f(x₀)| < ε if |x - x₀| < δ, for all ε > 0,
2014-04-26T16:51:47Z ski:   in spite of the efforts of Gottlob Frege, Giuseppe Peano and Bertrand Russell to reduce mathematics to logic.
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2014-04-26T16:52:00Z ski:   The logical calculus is easier to execute than any of the techniques of mathematics itself, yet only in 1934 did Gerhard Gentzen set it out in a natural way.  Even now, mathematics students are expected to learn complicated (⌜ε⌝- ⌜δ⌝)-proofs in analysis with no help in understanding the logical structure of the arguments.  Examiners fully deserve the garbage that they get in return.
2014-04-26T16:52:30Z ski:   -- "Practical Foundations for Mathematics" by Paul Taylor in 1999
2014-04-26T16:52:37Z rszeno: ski, +1
2014-04-26T16:53:06Z ski: (there's a HTML version at <http://www.paultaylor.eu/~pt/prafm/>, but figures and math signs are a bit garbled :/ there)
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2014-04-26T16:53:55Z ijp: "Mathematics may be defined as the subject where we never know what we are talking about, nor whether what we are saying is true." -- Bertrand Russell
2014-04-26T16:54:56Z ijp: kilimanjaro: ^ sprung to mind when I read your comment, because in propositional logic, what the variables representing your propositions mean is not really relevant
2014-04-26T16:56:10Z kilimanjaro: sure, but we were talking about calculus
2014-04-26T16:56:53Z rszeno not about learning to implement calculus?
2014-04-26T16:57:04Z ijp: perhaps, but I don't get to decide which analogies my brain will draw
2014-04-26T16:57:31Z kilimanjaro: calculus is not so much a framework for proving things as it is a framework for computing things, and part of its efficacy is that you don't have to resort to old-fashioned geometric arguments, or to even understand what you are doing
2014-04-26T16:58:08Z kilimanjaro: but as a matter of internal coherence a calculus student needs to at least be able to sort out what it is they are writing on their paper, what the variables represent, which things are changing and which things aren't, etc
2014-04-26T16:58:17Z ijp: I know what calculus is
2014-04-26T16:58:21Z kilimanjaro: so it was really that which i had in mind when i talked about "meaning"
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2014-04-26T16:59:33Z kilimanjaro: but imo it is only a small percentage of calculus students for which notation is an issue, i was one of them and i suspect that these are the sort of people who are drawn to things like scheme
2014-04-26T16:59:43Z ijp: you are one of those tediously ontopic people, aren't you?
2014-04-26T17:00:04Z kilimanjaro: no
2014-04-26T17:00:08Z kilimanjaro: i teach calculus and i like ranting
2014-04-26T17:00:09Z ijp: I in no way misunderstood your remark, and did not need a repetition, or a clarification
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2014-04-26T17:00:56Z kilimanjaro: i am glad that there is no misunderstanding
2014-04-26T17:00:59Z zacts: interesting
2014-04-26T17:01:41Z zacts: kilimanjaro: what do you think about that oreillyschool link approach to teaching calc?
2014-04-26T17:01:47Z zacts: from the looks of it?
2014-04-26T17:03:19Z kilimanjaro: it's tough to say
2014-04-26T17:03:46Z ijp: zacts: do you know what a zipper is?
2014-04-26T17:04:03Z kilimanjaro: zacts: i kind of wish courses would introduce integrals earlier
2014-04-26T17:04:11Z zacts: yeah, they scare me. I prefer buttons to zippers.
2014-04-26T17:04:17Z ijp: not that kind of zipper
2014-04-26T17:04:25Z zacts: oh, then I can't remember
2014-04-26T17:04:44Z Riastradh: ddefine-record-type/dx
2014-04-26T17:05:32Z ijp: Riastradh has pre-empted me
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2014-04-26T17:06:29Z ijp: zacts: a zipper on a data type, is a version of a data type with a "hole" in it, which allows for efficient editing at that point
2014-04-26T17:06:41Z Riastradh: ...To be honest, I never understood the value of drawing that analogy.
2014-04-26T17:06:43Z zacts: I would try an oreillyschool course to get an idea, but they are so damn expensive, and you don't get college credit. but the point was the idea of using mathematica / scheme as a way of interactively learning.
2014-04-26T17:06:58Z Riastradh: Does it let you use the implicit function theorem on your data structures?
2014-04-26T17:06:59Z ijp: it turns out that the type of the zipper is the derivative of the type of the underlying data structure
2014-04-26T17:07:01Z Riastradh: I doubt it...
2014-04-26T17:07:03Z kilimanjaro: Riastradh: http://i.imgur.com/zIZVLYX.jpg
2014-04-26T17:07:06Z kilimanjaro: (unrelated)
2014-04-26T17:07:23Z zacts: mathematica offers free calculus books for learning with mathematica apparently, to supplement whatever you are studying in school or from a main textbook
2014-04-26T17:07:27Z Riastradh: I have a cat like that...
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2014-04-26T17:07:57Z Riastradh: I wonder how computer vision does at recognizing dogs on rugs.
2014-04-26T17:08:04Z zacts: Riastradh: lol :D
2014-04-26T17:08:19Z ijp: Riastradh: it's an interesting one, but yeah, I don't think you can lift much results from analysis into the field of data structures
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2014-04-26T17:08:49Z ijp: maybe one day
2014-04-26T17:08:53Z Riastradh: `much'?  Are there any?
2014-04-26T17:09:11Z Riastradh: Does one get anything out of a bird's-eye categorical view of this structure?
2014-04-26T17:09:17Z ijp: Riastradh: hedging is a very difficult habit to get rid of
2014-04-26T17:09:43Z Riastradh: Yeah, my friends on Wall Street tell me it's very lucrative!
2014-04-26T17:10:53Z ijp: maybe we can replace the hedging with some fencing
2014-04-26T17:11:25Z Riastradh: Or some carpeting, like that dog.
2014-04-26T17:11:33Z Riastradh: Category carpet-bombing!
2014-04-26T17:11:44Z ijp: stock trading would be much more interesting if it involved sword fights
2014-04-26T17:12:11Z ijp: and stolen goods
2014-04-26T17:13:38Z Riastradh: Instead it mainly involves photon collisions and big numbers in accounting databases.
2014-04-26T17:14:53Z pjdelport: ijp: like The Crimson Permanent Assurance?
2014-04-26T17:15:07Z ijp: pjdelport: exactly
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2014-04-26T17:16:37Z ski more or less agrees with the aims of "Functional mathematics" at <http://www.funmath.be/> ("letting the symbols do the work", removing cognitive load due to having to constantly interpret and disambiguate/guess what the notation meant, freeing up "brain power" to focus more on the interesting issues at hand), though perhaps not with all their choices and notation details
2014-04-26T17:17:06Z ski: "How Computing Science created a new mathematical style" in 1990-03-04 at <http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD1073.html>,"The notational conventions I adopted, and why" in 2000-07-25 at <https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD13xx/EWD1300.html>, all by Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
2014-04-26T17:17:27Z ski: "Improving Mathematics and Programming Education" <http://www.imped.fi/wordpress/?lang=en> at Åbo,Turku; Netty <http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~naiman/>,<https://bitbucket.org/naiman/nettyproject/overview> by Lev Naiman; "a Practical Theory of Programming" by Eric C. R. Hehner (current edition in 2014-01-19) at <http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hehner/aPToP/>
2014-04-26T17:17:37Z ski: "Epsilon-Delta Limits Tutorial" at <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/homework/epsilon-delta.html>,the "Structured Derivation" subsection of "Lazy Evaluation of Haskell" at <http://www.vex.net/~trebla/haskell/lazy.xhtml>, both by monochrom; <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structured_derivations>
2014-04-26T17:17:43Z ski: are also interesting
2014-04-26T17:20:14Z ski: kilimanjaro : "part of its efficacy is that you don't have ... to even understand what you are doing", yes. and needless ambiguity in the notation is standing in the way of this goal
2014-04-26T17:20:38Z zacts: thanks ski
2014-04-26T17:21:33Z ski: of course it helps if you understand what you're doing. the point is that you shouldn't be forced to recall the intended interpretation all the time, just to be able to check whether a computation/rewrite/proof step is allowed
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2014-04-26T17:21:53Z kilimanjaro: ski: i agree
2014-04-26T17:22:08Z zacts: I have another link.. just a sec
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2014-04-26T17:22:26Z kilimanjaro: my claim was just that the notation is not as big of a deal as some make it out to be, and that the biggest trouble students have is in algebra
2014-04-26T17:22:31Z kilimanjaro: on the whole
2014-04-26T17:23:18Z ski: similarly to how, when solving "word problems", one can often first think about the meaning, and translate it into a system of equations (or perhaps some inequalities as well), then more or less mechanically solve it (directed by the knowledge of which variables you want to solve for), then finally interpret the solution(s) in the intended domain
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2014-04-26T17:25:12Z zacts: http://homepages.math.uic.edu/~kauffman/
2014-04-26T17:25:16Z zacts: ^ this looks interesting to me
2014-04-26T17:25:30Z ski: ijp : "the type of the zipper is the derivative of the type of the underlying data structure" -- not quite. the derivative of the underlying data structure is the type of one-hole contexts. for zippers you need to unfold the recursion, take the derivative of the "level" data structure, then fold it back up again
2014-04-26T17:25:48Z ski: (<http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers> mentions that, e.g.)
2014-04-26T17:25:52Z zacts: this knot logic paper uses lambda calculus http://homepages.math.uic.edu/~kauffman/KnotLogic.pdf
2014-04-26T17:26:08Z Riastradh: ski, and *then* do you get a mean value theorem?  Implicit function theorem?  Stokes' theorem?
2014-04-26T17:26:50Z ski: i don't know
2014-04-26T17:26:52Z zacts: I need to learn about knot logic
2014-04-26T17:27:21Z Riastradh: I'm gonna Stokes up your list and one-form it at the car and last to exterior-derivative it in the middle!
2014-04-26T17:27:46Z ijp: brb, integrating this tree
2014-04-26T17:27:57Z Riastradh: (Sounds like something a gang of street mathematicians would say when they mug someone.)
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2014-04-26T17:29:25Z ilammy: A sudden Scheme-related question appears: is there such thing in this world as Scheme IDE supporting R7RS?
2014-04-26T17:30:24Z z0d: ilammy: off topic! get lost!
2014-04-26T17:30:30Z Riastradh: I usually just use Emacs, but then I don't do anything involving the R7RS.
2014-04-26T17:30:52Z zacts: ilammy: z0d is joking of course
2014-04-26T17:31:09Z zacts: Riastradh: does drracket support a form of R7RS?
2014-04-26T17:31:14Z ijp: zacts: no
2014-04-26T17:31:17Z zacts: ok
2014-04-26T17:31:23Z Riastradh: It doesn't?
2014-04-26T17:31:28Z Riastradh: That's a little surprising.
2014-04-26T17:31:31Z Riastradh: *shrug*
2014-04-26T17:31:35Z Riastradh: I'm going to make myself a peanut butter cracker.
2014-04-26T17:34:22Z ski: (for some reason, the <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elasticity_of_demand> of a data structure seems to be the paths into the data structure (for the case where the type of paths is independent of the particular data structure value, at least) (<http://sneezy.cs.nott.ac.uk/containers/blog/?p=14>))
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2014-04-26T17:35:01Z zacts: so for the math geeks here, do any of you know anything about knot logic?
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2014-04-26T17:35:49Z nisstyre: zacts: you mean like knot theory? (the study of knots)
2014-04-26T17:35:50Z Riastradh: That's what they use over at Fox News, right?
2014-04-26T17:36:07Z zacts: someone told me about it, I need to read more about it. I may tinker with it and scheme, eventually if it becomes interesting to me.
2014-04-26T17:36:18Z zacts: nisstyre: I think so? :-) I just learned about it today.
2014-04-26T17:36:39Z Riastradh: (No, sorry, I don't know a thing about it.  All I know about is bad puns, sometimes.)
2014-04-26T17:36:49Z rszeno are not different things? 
2014-04-26T17:36:55Z zacts: but the link I posted has lots of cool pictures, mentions church / Godel / etc..
2014-04-26T17:37:14Z nisstyre: zacts: it's an area of geometry I think
2014-04-26T17:37:15Z Riastradh: I'm going to make another peanut butter cracker, but then I'll be all out of peanut butter!
2014-04-26T17:37:22Z nisstyre: er, topology
2014-04-26T17:37:26Z nisstyre: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knot_theory
2014-04-26T17:37:27Z zacts: nisstyre: indeed it is, I know that much
2014-04-26T17:37:43Z nisstyre: I'm not a mathematician or anything
2014-04-26T17:37:57Z nisstyre: there was a series of MIT lectures available on it though
2014-04-26T17:38:26Z ijp: is your theorem so-so, does its logic bob to and fro, can you tie it in a knot, can you tie it in a bow
2014-04-26T17:38:28Z nisstyre: effing John Conway is involved of course
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2014-04-26T17:39:06Z zacts: ah ok, I'll have to check it out.
2014-04-26T17:39:15Z ijp: Riastradh: I can't say mine was better than yours
2014-04-26T17:39:20Z zacts: I think it may have something to do with complex systems
2014-04-26T17:39:27Z zacts: when applied to computer scienece.
2014-04-26T17:39:53Z nisstyre: I've never heard of topology being applied to computer science
2014-04-26T17:39:58Z nisstyre: other than making pretty 3d images
2014-04-26T17:40:09Z zacts: instead of compartmentalized abstractions, the abstractions are more geometrically designed.
2014-04-26T17:40:21Z zacts: I'll have to ask my friend what they meant by that..
2014-04-26T17:40:23Z nisstyre: I would just use functions and data types instead
2014-04-26T17:40:27Z rszeno continuations? kind of topo theory, :)
2014-04-26T17:40:52Z ski: zacts : looks interesting, ty
2014-04-26T17:41:00Z ijp: rszeno: you seem to have something wrong with your irc client
2014-04-26T17:41:09Z ski: .. looks like something Baez might have blagged about
2014-04-26T17:41:20Z nisstyre: he posts lots of pretty pictures on G+
2014-04-26T17:41:21Z rszeno: yes, i'm pretty sure, :)
2014-04-26T17:41:49Z zacts: what is a blag?
2014-04-26T17:41:57Z nisstyre: hipster for 'blog' I think
2014-04-26T17:42:07Z ijp: take that riastradh!
2014-04-26T17:42:32Z Riastradh: Nah, don't worry.  I was using the word `blag' before it was a hipster thing.
2014-04-26T17:43:01Z zacts: I have a blog, but it's a work in progress. It's only there to aid my memory, and to get me to actually complete projects.
2014-04-26T17:43:12Z zacts: http://zacts-blog.herokuapp.com/
2014-04-26T17:43:29Z nisstyre: I setup a blog on my server a few weeks ago but haven't had time to write any posts
2014-04-26T17:43:31Z zacts: I hope to write about scheme eventually
2014-04-26T17:43:43Z nisstyre: and I spent a lot of time configuring TLS to get an A+ on ssllabs
2014-04-26T17:43:47Z zacts: and I'm looking for a new vps, until I get a more reliable @ home server
2014-04-26T17:43:50Z nisstyre: and then heartbleed, so I had to revoke the cert I just got
2014-04-26T17:44:56Z zacts: what do you need ssl for a personal blog for? are you accepting donations or something?
2014-04-26T17:45:17Z Riastradh: To hurt the ubiquitous surveillance state.
2014-04-26T17:45:18Z nisstyre: zacts: I need it so people know they're connecting to my site
2014-04-26T17:45:23Z nisstyre: and that
2014-04-26T17:45:28Z zacts: oh
2014-04-26T17:45:37Z zacts: well, my blog is just plain text ranting
2014-04-26T17:45:38Z nisstyre: also passwords do get transmitted
2014-04-26T17:45:49Z nisstyre: also https://primop.me/wk.gpg
2014-04-26T17:45:51Z zacts: kind of like how offby1 puppets rudybot
2014-04-26T17:45:52Z ski: nisstyre : "Tangles, Bangles and Knots" by John Horton Conway in 1996-11-03 at <http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Tangles-Bangles-and-Knots-23319> ?
2014-04-26T17:45:59Z Riastradh: The internet is full of mean people who want to screw you up and take your money, and the wires have ears.
2014-04-26T17:47:00Z zacts: gopher++
2014-04-26T17:47:08Z zacts: I've actually used gopher before
2014-04-26T17:47:11Z Riastradh: Unfortunately, due to a hysterical raisin at Nutscrape (and who knows what nefarious influence might have played into it), browsers make the COMPLETELY ASININE choice of giving you big huge scary warnings when you're fighting the ubiquitous surveillance state and are happy as clams when you're vulnerable to it.
2014-04-26T17:47:26Z nisstyre: indeed
2014-04-26T17:47:42Z nisstyre: what I really would like is to have a key signing party with everyone who wants to visit my site
2014-04-26T17:47:45Z nisstyre: instead of using PKI
2014-04-26T17:48:10Z zacts: nisstyre: do you use gnunet at all?
2014-04-26T17:48:16Z nisstyre: never heard of it
2014-04-26T17:48:16Z zacts: I think guix is going to use it somehow
2014-04-26T17:48:19Z nisstyre: is it a gnu project?
2014-04-26T17:48:22Z zacts: yes
2014-04-26T17:48:30Z Riastradh: Gnunet is like Freenet.
2014-04-26T17:48:32Z Riastradh: But not Java.
2014-04-26T17:48:34Z ijp: are there even still a hundred gopher servers running??
2014-04-26T17:48:42Z ijp: must be less than that by now, surely
2014-04-26T17:48:44Z Riastradh: ijp, a hundred?  Probably.
2014-04-26T17:48:46Z zacts: ijp: there were five years ago
2014-04-26T17:48:47Z nisstyre: nothing wrong with Java from a freedom perspective
2014-04-26T17:48:50Z zacts: it was so cool
2014-04-26T17:48:57Z nisstyre: as long as it's actually free software
2014-04-26T17:49:02Z Riastradh: No, just from an engineering perspective...
2014-04-26T17:49:06Z nisstyre: yeah
2014-04-26T17:49:18Z Riastradh: `Java is designed to give programmers the illusion they are doing engineering.'
2014-04-26T17:49:23Z zacts: but I bet someone will make guile bindings for gnunet
2014-04-26T17:49:37Z nisstyre: then I can use it from my irc client
2014-04-26T17:49:44Z nisstyre: (weechat has guile bindings)
2014-04-26T17:50:01Z Riastradh: I can't bring myself to use the last cracker's worth of peanut butter.
2014-04-26T17:50:05Z Riastradh: What should I do??
2014-04-26T17:50:14Z ijp: Riastradh: according to almighty wikipedia, there were as much as 160 in 2012
2014-04-26T17:50:23Z Riastradh: I could use nutella instead.  Or cookie butter.
2014-04-26T17:50:24Z zacts: I personally have no desire to learn java.. at least for the projects I'm interested in
2014-04-26T17:50:25Z ijp: which is rather surprising
2014-04-26T17:50:46Z nisstyre: I tried learning Java one time, I got bored right about where the manual talks about boxed and unboxed types
2014-04-26T17:51:09Z ijp: rudybot: seen arcfide
2014-04-26T17:51:09Z rudybot: ijp: arcfide was seen joining in #scheme twenty-three weeks ago, and then arcfide was seen quitting twenty-three weeks ago, saying "*.net *.split"
2014-04-26T17:51:17Z zacts: Riastradh: I imagine ignatius j. reilly
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2014-04-26T17:56:55Z ijp: I'm not sure antihero even begins to cover ignatius reilly
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2014-04-26T18:06:22Z zacts: *belch*
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2014-04-26T18:12:29Z ski: nisstyre : maybe you'd be interested in checking out "Synthetic topology of data types and classical spaces" by Martín Escardó in 2004-11 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/entcs87.(pdf|dvi|ps)> ?
2014-04-26T18:12:54Z nisstyre: ski: I'm a topology noob
2014-04-26T18:13:11Z ski: and possibly also some of <http://math.andrej.com/2007/09/28/seemingly-impossible-functional-programs/>,<http://math.andrej.com/2008/11/21/a-haskell-monad-for-infinite-search-in-finite-time/>,<http://math.andrej.com/2011/12/06/how-to-make-the-impossible-functionals-run-even-faster/>
2014-04-26T18:13:11Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/2umqwh
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2014-04-26T18:13:53Z ski: (e.g. <http://math.andrej.com/2011/07/27/definability-and-extensionality-of-the-modulus-of-continuity-functional/>,<http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/> are also interesting)
2014-04-26T18:13:53Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kjqotmm
2014-04-26T18:14:34Z zacts: thanks again for the links ski, looks cool
2014-04-26T18:15:17Z ski: (all those are related to topology, btw)
2014-04-26T18:17:49Z zacts: cool the last link provides a practical example in haskell
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2014-04-26T18:43:50Z zacts: I guess speed would be one aspect, but I'm personally currently way interested in the idea of reducing complexity.
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2014-04-26T18:46:24Z zacts: ok, I've kind of realized that my previous statement was kind of useless. I mean isn't that every comp scientist's goal? lol :D
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2014-04-26T18:46:36Z zacts: anyway, laters ski thanks for the links, and I'm going to eat lunch.
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2014-04-26T18:52:21Z ski: zacts : .. was that previous statement a comment on some of the links ? (which, in that case ?)
2014-04-26T18:55:45Z zacts: oh that last link plus the idea of geometric abstractions caused me to mind vomit for a second.
2014-04-26T18:56:04Z zacts: oops, the seemingly impossible functional programs link
2014-04-26T18:56:34Z zacts: this grapefruit is good
2014-04-26T18:57:30Z zacts: I'm still a newbie, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself with some of this stuff.
2014-04-26T18:57:46Z zacts: but it's nice to have new ideas floating around my mind
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2014-04-26T18:58:39Z zacts: so I really don't know enough to have a full conversation about this stuff quite yet.
2014-04-26T18:59:00Z zacts: I'm at frons now, that's about at my level of understanding sort of..
2014-04-26T18:59:39Z zacts: which I can't wait to see what LeoNerd thinks of it
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2014-04-27T00:23:07Z leo2007: I need to get edwin to start with bigger font. I have (set-font "9x15") in .edwin but it is complaining unbound variable.
2014-04-27T00:23:11Z leo2007: what to do?
2014-04-27T00:26:44Z taylanub: leo2007: just a shot in the dark, could it be `set-font!' and not `set-font' ? :P
2014-04-27T00:27:46Z Riastradh: ((ref-command set-font) "9x15")
2014-04-27T00:31:35Z leo2007: Riastradh: thanks.
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2014-04-27T01:00:46Z leo2007: how to get help on normal (non-edwin) scheme variables in edwin?
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2014-04-27T01:06:54Z Riastradh: UTSL, I'm afraid.
2014-04-27T01:09:07Z leo2007: And there is no support for jumping directly to source?
2014-04-27T01:09:34Z leo2007: Riastradh: BTW, thanks for paredit for edwin.
2014-04-27T01:10:50Z Riastradh: Not other than by tags.
2014-04-27T01:11:08Z leo2007: Riastradh: thank you.
2014-04-27T01:11:30Z Riastradh: 'Fraid Edwin's paredit is pretty far behind GNU Emacs's, too.
2014-04-27T01:13:11Z leo2007: yes but already make a huge difference.
2014-04-27T01:15:21Z leo2007: Riastradh: do you miss completion when in emacs?
2014-04-27T01:15:37Z Riastradh: I don't usually use GNU Emacs for MIT Scheme stuff.
2014-04-27T01:15:46Z Riastradh: So, yes, I would.
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2014-04-27T01:19:37Z leo2007: will edwin-colour.patch be merged upstream?
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2014-04-27T01:22:23Z Riastradh: If it gets into a good state.  ecraven is working on that.  The problem with it as it stood was that it created a gajillion X GCs, two per character cell.
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2014-04-27T01:45:25Z leo2007: in edwin how to check if running on X11 or tty?
2014-04-27T01:45:48Z leo2007: the set-font is stopping edwin from start up in tty
2014-04-27T01:46:18Z Riastradh: Blah...
2014-04-27T01:47:00Z Riastradh: (current-display-type), probably.
2014-04-27T01:47:54Z Riastradh: (eq? 'X (display-type/name (current-display-type)))
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2014-04-27T01:51:24Z leo2007: Riastradh: seem to work. Thanks.
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2014-04-27T01:58:29Z zacts: do any of the schemes provide libraries for gnuplot / octave for mathematical graphics?
2014-04-27T01:58:31Z zacts searches
2014-04-27T01:58:37Z zacts: I have an idea, possibly..
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2014-04-27T02:59:06Z azathoth99: :)
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2014-04-27T11:43:15Z chaotic_good is now known as ferret_commnader
2014-04-27T11:43:17Z ferret_commnader: yeah
2014-04-27T11:43:19Z ferret_commnader: oh yeah
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2014-04-27T11:58:12Z ferret_commnader: schemers
2014-04-27T11:58:15Z ferret_commnader: th eplan
2014-04-27T11:58:18Z ferret_commnader: they have a plan
2014-04-27T12:01:45Z ijp: fuck off gavino
2014-04-27T12:02:44Z ferret_commnader: thats not very nice
2014-04-27T12:02:50Z ferret_commnader: thing to say
2014-04-27T12:03:04Z ferret_commnader: are you in France?
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2014-04-27T19:10:45Z ilammy: Are there any Racket wizards around?
2014-04-27T19:11:56Z Riastradh: Better to just ask your question.
2014-04-27T19:13:10Z vraid: there's also #racket
2014-04-27T19:13:26Z vraid: oh, you were there
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2014-04-27T19:29:30Z ijp: rudybot: better off leaving the wizards alone, they are subtle and quick to anger
2014-04-27T19:29:33Z rudybot: ijp: We need to unite with the vim tribe in our war against the evil wizards of Visual Studio.
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2014-04-27T22:16:19Z TerranceWarrior: where can I download locally SICP?
2014-04-27T22:19:29Z pjdelport: There's a PDF version here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxVCLS4f8Sg5OGUwMmZlZjYtZWQ4Zi00ZThmLWFkMjYtNTIxZmY4ODhjNDdl/edit?hl=en&authkey=CLnyyF4
2014-04-27T22:19:29Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/kmgzjs7
2014-04-27T22:19:40Z pjdelport: and a few more here, in various formats: http://sicpebook.wordpress.com/ebook/
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2014-04-27T22:20:39Z TerranceWarrior: thanks guys. turned out I downloaded it before it became downloable in 2013.
2014-04-27T22:20:40Z TerranceWarrior: lol
2014-04-27T22:32:33Z TerranceWarrior: that is, undownloable
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2014-04-27T23:18:46Z zacts: lo
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2014-04-27T23:20:59Z ammoun: hey, Suppose I want to input this line: ([40 60 100 55]) and I want scheme to return the sum of all these numbers. I'm not asking about how to implement the sum but how to define such a function... How do I parse that line please
2014-04-27T23:21:31Z ammoun: Can I define a function called [ ?
2014-04-27T23:21:52Z ammoun: How do I ignore the closing ]
2014-04-27T23:27:19Z cjh`: ammoun: you probably want a macro, I think it would have to be ([ 40 60 100 55 ]) but my macro-fu is weak.
2014-04-27T23:29:06Z pjdelport: ammoun: It may depend on your dialect; some treat [] as synonyms for ()
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2014-04-27T23:33:59Z cjh`: ammoun: here is a starting point https://gist.github.com/mkfifo/11358085
2014-04-27T23:34:14Z cjh`: ammoun: I used 'start' and 'end' as my implementation (chicken) wasn't happy with [] or {}
2014-04-27T23:35:41Z cjh`: < and > behave fine though.
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2014-04-27T23:38:01Z pjdelport: Note that < and > are already the comparison operators; you probably don't want to mask them.
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2014-04-27T23:45:04Z cjh`: good advice, you could use << and >> or other such identifiers.
2014-04-27T23:50:15Z zacts: I'm looking for a good visual teaching language for my five year old cousins.
2014-04-27T23:50:43Z zacts: I found http://scratch.mit.edu/
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2014-04-27T23:52:39Z ammoun: pjdelport yah my dialect treats them as () how do I proceed then?
2014-04-27T23:53:15Z pjdelport: ammoun: Why exactly are you not just doing (sum 1 2 3 ...) ?
2014-04-27T23:54:01Z ammoun: I'm supposed to write code so that when loaded, ([1 2 3]) would produce 6
2014-04-27T23:54:06Z ammoun: possible?
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2014-04-27T23:55:19Z pjdelport: ammoun: ([1 2 3]) as a Scheme expression, or as a string you read?
2014-04-27T23:55:32Z pjdelport: ammoun: If this is an assignment, can you pastebin the wording somewhere perhaps?
2014-04-27T23:55:44Z quotemstr: Does Scheme dictate any special handling for macros that revaluate to begin at toplevel?
2014-04-27T23:55:55Z pjdelport: Strictly speaking, it's impossible to do that in standard Scheme alone.
2014-04-28T00:00:42Z ammoun: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4FoUnDntgxRNnBUcGF2UFRvd00/edit
2014-04-28T00:00:52Z ammoun: pjdelport, could you read that?
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2014-04-28T00:03:45Z ammoun: Can I read a string to a variable?
2014-04-28T00:09:35Z pjdelport: ammoun: Ah, it sounds like they want you to write an interpreter for strings, yes.
2014-04-28T00:10:34Z ammoun: pjdelport,  I wrote all the functions but I can't read a string and parse it :(
2014-04-28T00:11:12Z pjdelport: ammoun: It sounds like they want you to use the read built-in
2014-04-28T00:11:16Z pjdelport: which makes it easier
2014-04-28T00:12:10Z pjdelport: (read) basically reads an S-expression from input, or a string
2014-04-28T00:12:16Z ammoun: Yah, I really didn't get that part... can you think of an example how to run the code I'm supposed to write?
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2014-04-28T00:12:54Z pjdelport: ammoun: Well, if you just execute (read) at a REPL, it will wait for you to type a line, and then give you the parse of that line
2014-04-28T00:13:42Z ammoun: Right! but don't I need to save that somewhere and parse it to figure out which processing to do?
2014-04-28T00:13:48Z pjdelport: In your case, it seems to assume a Scheme that reads [] as (), so you're in luck.
2014-04-28T00:14:39Z pjdelport: If you (read) something like "([1 2 3] ** [4 5 6])", you'll get the S-expression '((1 2 3) ** (4 5 6)) back
2014-04-28T00:15:11Z pjdelport: Your task is then just to write an evaluator for the latter
2014-04-28T00:15:15Z cjh`: ammoun: so (read) will return the read sexpr as a scheme list which you can then manipulate
2014-04-28T00:15:27Z cjh`: (map (lambda (n) (display n) (newline)) (read))
2014-04-28T00:15:34Z pjdelport: ammoun: To start off with, you can actually ignore (read) and so on, just for now.
2014-04-28T00:15:37Z cjh`: and then type (foo "bar" "baz" 14)
2014-04-28T00:16:10Z ammoun: That's what I did! I wrote code for example to process the two lists
2014-04-28T00:16:11Z pjdelport: ammoun: You can implement your interpreter / evaluator entirely as a function that takes normal Scheme lists, like the latter.
2014-04-28T00:17:12Z pjdelport: In other words, (my-eval '((1 2 3) + (4 5 6))), which should return '(5 6 7)
2014-04-28T00:17:15Z pjdelport: and so on
2014-04-28T00:17:46Z ammoun: (define (a*a lst1 lst2)
2014-04-28T00:17:47Z ammoun:   (if (null? lst1) '()
2014-04-28T00:17:49Z ammoun:   (cons (* (car lst1) (car lst2)) (a*a (cdr lst1) (cdr lst2)))))
2014-04-28T00:18:18Z pjdelport: ammoun: Cool, that's a start.
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2014-04-28T00:18:51Z pjdelport: ammoun: Your top-level evaluation function will basically be a case analysis.
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2014-04-28T00:19:17Z pjdelport: and it can call auxiliary functions, like the above, to handle the specific cases
2014-04-28T00:19:50Z ammoun: Yah that's the part that I can't do, how do I read the string and look inside to know which aux function to use...
2014-04-28T00:19:52Z pjdelport: But basically, you'll want a big cond statement that handles each type of expression in that list
2014-04-28T00:20:10Z pjdelport: Well, forget about reading a string for now; you can add that on later.
2014-04-28T00:20:22Z pjdelport: Just think of an interface like (my-eval '((1 2 3) + (4 5 6)))
2014-04-28T00:20:46Z pjdelport: In other words, (my-eval <expression>), where expression is any valid expression in the mini-language.
2014-04-28T00:21:08Z ammoun: Sure! so a top level function that reads a list and calls aux function accordingly? :)
2014-04-28T00:21:22Z pjdelport: Well, it doesn't read the list; it just accepts it as a normal parameter
2014-04-28T00:21:50Z ammoun: as an argument, like lst1 in the example
2014-04-28T00:22:02Z pjdelport: (To read it, you can do something like (my-eval (read)), but that's orthogonal, for now.)
2014-04-28T00:22:04Z pjdelport: Right.
2014-04-28T00:22:38Z ammoun: I'll let you know after I finish that :) Thank you so much!
2014-04-28T00:22:57Z ammoun: Thanks a lot cjh`
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2014-04-28T00:23:35Z pjdelport: ammoun: As a hint, your top-level evaluation function will basically have three cases to handle: the unary operations, the binary operations, and the bare arrays (for average)
2014-04-28T00:23:37Z cjh`: pjdelport did all the useful work, I missunderstood initially, best of luck :)
2014-04-28T00:23:40Z cjh`: pjdelport: awesome job.
2014-04-28T00:24:42Z pjdelport: ammoun: And as a second hint, it will have to recurse sometimes, to handle the binary operators.
2014-04-28T00:25:05Z pjdelport: So your evaluator function should simply call itself to handle nested expressions.
2014-04-28T00:25:36Z pjdelport: But the assignment explicitly says that you don't have to recurse for the unary and simple expressions, so you don't have to do it for them.
2014-04-28T00:25:46Z pjdelport: Other than that, good luck. :)
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2014-04-28T00:33:40Z ammoun: pjdelport, are you talking about other aux functions? Or the top level one will need to recurse as well? because now I'm thinking about checking if the list contains "+", "++"... and call an aux func according to what's in the list...
2014-04-28T00:34:25Z pjdelport: ammoun: The aux functionsp probably shouldn't recurse: the evaluation function should handle that.
2014-04-28T00:34:42Z pjdelport: and yeah, that's basically the idea
2014-04-28T00:35:55Z pjdelport: You can take it case by case: make the evaluator work for one expression type, and then extend it with the next, and so on.
2014-04-28T00:36:22Z ammoun: pjdelport, but I consider a*a that I pasted earlier an aux function and it recurses
2014-04-28T00:36:53Z pjdelport: ammoun: Oh, no, recursing in that sense is fine.
2014-04-28T00:37:15Z ammoun: Ohhh... I'm missing something then :)
2014-04-28T00:37:16Z pjdelport: I just meant the aux functions shouldn't be trying to recursively evaluate full sub-expressions.
2014-04-28T00:37:59Z pjdelport: The a*a function is basically just looping through the list.
2014-04-28T00:38:05Z ammoun: Right :D
2014-04-28T00:40:04Z pjdelport: ammoun: Actually, reading the assignment more closely, it doesn't sound like they expect recursive expression evaluation at all.
2014-04-28T00:40:24Z pjdelport: So you can probably ignore that.
2014-04-28T00:40:50Z pjdelport: A real evaluator will generally do recursive evaluation, but in this case you just handle the fixed expression types :)
2014-04-28T00:41:04Z ammoun: Yah, tell me how did you think the problem was harder? like nested expressions?
2014-04-28T00:42:10Z ammoun: Which case would make the need to recurse... Just curious but can you show me an example please
2014-04-28T00:43:43Z pjdelport: ammoun: Recursive evaluation would be for something like ((1 + 2) * (3 + 4))
2014-04-28T00:44:02Z ammoun: Interesting!
2014-04-28T00:44:08Z pjdelport: Where expressions are defined recursively: expressions can contain arbitrary sub-expressions.
2014-04-28T00:45:04Z pjdelport: Internally, an evaluator for something like that would first recursively evaluate the sub-expressions, before evaluating their results as (3 * 7)
2014-04-28T00:45:45Z pjdelport: But your assignment's mini-language doesn't allow or expect recursive expressions.
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2014-04-28T02:13:29Z ammoun: pjdelport, (define (plusplus lst)
2014-04-28T02:13:31Z ammoun:   (eval (cons '+ lst)))
2014-04-28T02:14:02Z ammoun: That one is for summing all elements of the list together
2014-04-28T02:14:11Z ammoun: (define (evaluator lst)
2014-04-28T02:14:13Z ammoun:   (if (memq '++ lst) (plusplus (cdr lst)) '()))
2014-04-28T02:14:43Z ammoun: (++ [99 11 12])
2014-04-28T02:17:25Z pjdelport: ammoun: (eq? (car lst) '++) might be slightly better style than (memq '++ lst), but it's probably a bit moot for this particular evaluator
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2014-04-28T02:18:08Z pjdelport: Are you familiar with cond yet?
2014-04-28T02:18:27Z ammoun: I always had in my mind the next examples... where addition comes in between...
2014-04-28T02:18:33Z ammoun: Yes
2014-04-28T02:20:46Z ammoun: So pjdelport, isn't this the way I test to imitate the later read behavior later: (evaluator '(++ '(8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:21:16Z pjdelport: ammoun: You only need the outermost quote; it quotes everything inside it.
2014-04-28T02:21:59Z ammoun: That way it wants to consider 8 as a method
2014-04-28T02:22:45Z ammoun: (evaluator '(++ (8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:22:49Z pjdelport: ammoun: Well, there's a separate problem: (plusplus (cdr lst))
2014-04-28T02:23:25Z pjdelport: rudybot: (cdr '(++ (8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:23:26Z rudybot: pjdelport: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-28T02:23:26Z rudybot: pjdelport: ; Value: '((8 7 6))
2014-04-28T02:23:41Z pjdelport: ammoun: note how it's wrapped in two levels of list
2014-04-28T02:23:53Z ammoun: A list containing the list I want
2014-04-28T02:23:57Z pjdelport: right
2014-04-28T02:24:45Z pjdelport: That's why eval is trying to evaluate it as a Scheme call; you're eventually passing it (+ (8 7 6)), instead of (+ 8 7 6)
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2014-04-28T02:25:04Z ammoun: Makes sense
2014-04-28T02:25:19Z ammoun: rudybot: (list '(++ (8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:25:19Z rudybot: ammoun: your sandbox is ready
2014-04-28T02:25:19Z rudybot: ammoun: ; Value: '((++ (8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:25:35Z ammoun: rudybot: (list(cdr '(++ (8 7 6))))
2014-04-28T02:25:35Z rudybot: ammoun: ; Value: '(((8 7 6)))
2014-04-28T02:25:38Z pjdelport: so (cdr lst) actually yields the *tail* of lst, not the second element (which is what you actually want)
2014-04-28T02:25:55Z ammoun: car of the cdr?
2014-04-28T02:25:59Z pjdelport: yep :)
2014-04-28T02:26:36Z ammoun: Thank you :D I always had in mind, everything else :p which is technically nothing but the first element
2014-04-28T02:29:14Z pjdelport: the other way of indexing lists is list-ref: you'd say (list-ref lst 2) to get the second element
2014-04-28T02:30:02Z pjdelport: anyway, just as a stylistic thing, you'd rarely do something like (eval (cons '+ lst)) in real Scheme code
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2014-04-28T02:30:26Z ammoun: That hint is really useful for the next ones!
2014-04-28T02:30:32Z pjdelport: (apply + lst) would be simpler and safer (it wouldn't unintentionally try to call 8 like above, for example
2014-04-28T02:30:34Z pjdelport: )
2014-04-28T02:30:34Z ammoun: ohh why not
2014-04-28T02:31:14Z pjdelport: but since the assignment said to use eval instead of apply, you'd probably want to leave it as-is
2014-04-28T02:31:20Z pjdelport: just be aware of that :)
2014-04-28T02:31:22Z ammoun: Yah :(
2014-04-28T02:31:34Z pjdelport: and with the gotcha that eval does full Scheme evaluation, not just your mini-language evaluation
2014-04-28T02:32:18Z ammoun: I'll make sure to sound like a scheme styling expert tomorrow when I meet him :D
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2014-04-28T02:43:58Z ammoun: pjdelport, apparently list-ref is 0 based :)
2014-04-28T02:44:09Z pjdelport: oh, yes
2014-04-28T02:44:11Z pjdelport: of course xP
2014-04-28T02:44:44Z ammoun: saved me a bunch of car cdr cadr caaaadrrrrr....
2014-04-28T02:48:10Z ammoun: pjdelport, so now how does read come into play
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2014-04-28T11:28:31Z taylanub: I don't understand 7.6 of r6rs-rationale; it speaks of an asymmetry in the prohibitions against assignments to explicitly and implicitly exported variables, but I don't see such asymmetry; both are prohibited in the importing and exporting libraries?
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2014-04-28T12:14:19Z vanila: hello
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2014-04-28T12:49:33Z vanila: http://wingolog.org/archives/2013/11/02/scheme-quiz-time
2014-04-28T12:50:02Z vanila: This looks very scary and made me wonder if continuations are worth, what do you think?
2014-04-28T12:50:07Z vanila: are worth it
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2014-04-28T12:55:30Z ijp: yes, no, and maybe
2014-04-28T12:57:33Z vanila: would you elaborate??
2014-04-28T13:02:24Z ijp: sorry, was on the phone
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2014-04-28T13:03:14Z ijp: yes, in that the concept of a continuation is a very useful one irrespective of whether or not a particular language gives the programmer direct access to the current continuation
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2014-04-28T13:04:05Z ijp: no, for all the reasons listed in http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html
2014-04-28T13:05:21Z LeoNerd: call/ec  is nice
2014-04-28T13:05:41Z LeoNerd: And doesn't fuck with justabout every optimisation of implementations like call/cc does
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2014-04-28T13:08:26Z ijp: it's also not clear to me that we take advantage of them enough to justify exposing them to users
2014-04-28T13:12:06Z taylanub: Delimited continuations <3
2014-04-28T13:13:53Z vanila: How would you be able to figure out if a given optimization would be detectable by continuations?
2014-04-28T13:14:21Z ijp: you think very very hard
2014-04-28T13:17:52Z ijp: vanila: the story isn't all bad, or they wouldn't have survived this long
2014-04-28T13:18:46Z ijp: call/cc isn't as well loved these days, but delimited continuations and cps still are
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2014-04-28T13:22:36Z vraid: are there any good introductions to what continuations allow that's harder to do without them? i grasp the basics of them, but haven't actually used them
2014-04-28T13:24:15Z ijp: vraid: they came originally from semantics, and their purpose was to give a proper explanation of what "goto" means
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2014-04-28T13:31:08Z pjdelport: vraid: Continuations, on their own, exist everywhere: they're just a formal way of describing evaluation semantics. First-class continuations are useful because it lets you manipulate them inside the language itself, to define control constructs with arbitrary evaluation semantics.
2014-04-28T13:31:58Z pjdelport: First-class continuations are very powerful and general, but also kind of low-level, for the same reason.
2014-04-28T13:32:55Z pjdelport: So it's not really a case of continuations allowing anything that's harder without them: it's more accurate to say that everything else is a special case of them, in a certain sense.
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2014-04-28T13:35:36Z vraid: ah okay
2014-04-28T13:36:13Z ijp: the point of a cps transform is to beat other forms of control into our function-application-uber-alles paradigm
2014-04-28T13:40:09Z vanila: so what about rather than having first class continuations in the language itself, you could have them as a macro system to define new operators?
2014-04-28T13:40:11Z pjdelport: vraid: To give an example of "arbitrary evaluation semantics", consider thinsg like Python generators, or Prolog-like backtracking searches, or new, special looping constructs, or coroutines... etc.
2014-04-28T13:40:46Z vraid: haven't used those languages
2014-04-28T13:40:57Z pjdelport: In Scheme, you can implement all those things using first-class continuations, in a library.
2014-04-28T13:41:22Z pjdelport: Just by manipulating the underlying continuations exposed by the language.
2014-04-28T13:41:29Z vraid: i think i get it though
2014-04-28T13:41:59Z pjdelport: In a language without first-class access to its continuations, you can't do that.
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2014-04-28T13:42:51Z pjdelport: vanila: Continuations are a run-time thing by definition; they don't exist at compile / macro-expansion time.
2014-04-28T13:43:16Z pjdelport: (Not the continuations that you mean in this case, at least.)
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2014-04-28T13:44:29Z pjdelport: vanila: A macro system can manipulate identifiers like "call/cc" symbolically, to provide you with syntax sugar, but the continuation-manipulating operators have to actually execute at run-time to have any effect.
2014-04-28T13:45:41Z pjdelport: A related but different thing that you can do, though, is to transform code to CPS; but that's probably a topic on its own.
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2014-04-28T13:47:24Z pjdelport: Strictly speaking, you can use CPS to implement continuations as a layer on top of any underlying language; but they're a second-class thing relative to the underlying language, then.
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2014-04-28T13:48:43Z vanila: I think that's what haskell does, but called monads
2014-04-28T13:51:39Z pjdelport: Monads and CPS are related to eachother, yeah.
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2014-04-28T14:42:38Z vanila: In http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html he ends with saying that we don't really know what control operators would be better
2014-04-28T14:42:52Z vanila: so are there issues with shift/reset as well?
2014-04-28T14:43:03Z vanila: it looks a lot better from http://community.schemewiki.org/?composable-continuations-tutorial
2014-04-28T14:44:50Z pjdelport: vanila: I think he's only saying that it's not clear which of the delimited ones are better, compared to each other, but that any of them are probably better than call/cc.
2014-04-28T14:45:39Z pjdelport: vanila: The delimited ones can generally be expressed in terms of eachother, so it's not that critical a choice.
2014-04-28T14:53:08Z vanila: I was reading this paper about stack based implementation, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~dyb/pubs/3imp.pdf
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2014-04-28T14:53:16Z vanila: it says for continuations you would copy the whole stack
2014-04-28T14:53:27Z vanila: but for shift/reset, would that just involve copying a small portion of the stack?
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2014-04-28T15:06:13Z taylanub: vanila: a delimited portion, yes
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2014-04-28T15:08:02Z taylanub: Sometimes it can be avoided entirely, when the compiler can prove that the continuation is only used to "escape" back up (like throwing an exception, breaking from a loop, or returning from a function).  See stuff like `call-with-escape-continuation' aka `call/ec' or `let-escape-contination' aka `let/ec' for a syntactic construct that *forces* the continuation to be escape-only
2014-04-28T15:08:35Z taylanub: (That no-copy optimization might also be applicable to full continuations BTW, I don't know.)
2014-04-28T15:09:00Z Riastradh: It can be, but I've never seen any Scheme compiler actually do it.
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2014-04-28T15:24:07Z DrDuck: I think I'm missing the entire point of the importance of the section 2.1.4 in SICP and its exercises. :(
2014-04-28T15:24:40Z DrDuck: I want to skip ahead to the next section, but promised myself I'd do all the exercises :|
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2014-04-28T17:21:54Z ijp: Documents/ Music/ Weird_Goat_Pictures/ screenplay.txt freesoftwaresong.ogg
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2014-04-28T17:57:13Z offby1: they don't bite
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2014-04-28T21:00:11Z wingo: is latent typing even a thing?
2014-04-28T21:02:36Z stamourv: wingo: I think I've seen the term used to mean "you don't have to write down types".
2014-04-28T21:02:54Z taylanub thought it's a synonym for dynamic typing
2014-04-28T21:02:55Z wingo: the r5 and r4rs use the term in the intro
2014-04-28T21:03:00Z stamourv: Which, oddly, would include both dynamic types, and systems with type inference.
2014-04-28T21:03:11Z stamourv: Oh, TIL.
2014-04-28T21:03:20Z stamourv: What does it use it for?
2014-04-28T21:03:33Z stamourv: it #1 = intro, it #2 = the term.
2014-04-28T21:04:40Z ijp: I think sqlite uses it to mean dynamic typing
2014-04-28T21:04:42Z taylanub: "Scheme has latent as opposed to manifest types.  Types are associated with values (also called objects) rather than with variables.  (Some authors refer to languages with latent typing as weakly typed or dynamically typed languages.)"  All typos mine.
2014-04-28T21:05:20Z taylanub: (page 3, R5RS)
2014-04-28T21:05:35Z wingo: neither document uses the term after the intro
2014-04-28T21:06:34Z wingo: sum types are associated with values, no?
2014-04-28T21:06:41Z wingo displays ignoranc
2014-04-28T21:06:42Z wingo: e
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2014-04-28T21:07:18Z taylanub: (Interesting, R7RS-small only uses the term "dynamic", drops latent and weak.)
2014-04-28T21:07:21Z wingo: i mean, the value carries with it an indication of its concrete type...
2014-04-28T21:07:36Z stamourv: taylanub: Right, that's consistent with my definition. (esp with opposition to manifest)
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2014-04-28T21:07:58Z taylanub: FYI I'm lacking context here.
2014-04-28T21:07:58Z stamourv: wingo: Right, values of a sum type would typically carry a tag.
2014-04-28T21:08:10Z wingo: guile's manual takes the phrase "latent typing" and runs with it, which seems like a bad idea to me
2014-04-28T21:08:14Z stamourv: As opposed to, say, union types.
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2014-04-28T21:09:52Z taylanub: Wikipedia just redirects to "tagged union" for the term "sum type" :P
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2014-04-28T22:41:52Z pjdelport: ammoun: Did you get sorted out, regarding read?
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2014-04-29T07:48:50Z ProbonoBonobo seeks advice on his current impasse
2014-04-29T07:51:22Z pjb: Without asking any question.  Good luck!
2014-04-29T07:57:19Z ProbonoBonobo: Just checking that sure there's someone here first ;)
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2014-04-29T07:57:54Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm working through SICP as part of a course, but it's a strange case of a course
2014-04-29T07:58:19Z ProbonoBonobo: Almost totally self-paced, no lectures to go with the readings, etc.  So that's the context.
2014-04-29T07:59:05Z ProbonoBonobo: We're doing an OOP diversion from chapter 3 right now.  I think I have a conceptual grasp of how it works
2014-04-29T08:00:14Z ProbonoBonobo: We're given some modules that define a class structure for persons and places, and the idea is to define a new thing class that's taken in by a function (defined for us) called ask
2014-04-29T08:00:33Z ProbonoBonobo: and ask passes in the message to the class, corresponding to the method.  Neat.
2014-04-29T08:01:07Z ProbonoBonobo: Going to implement this... is another story.
2014-04-29T08:02:15Z ProbonoBonobo: I've been stuck on one problem for about a week, which is pretty simple: define a take-all method for people, which adds unowned objects to a list of things in the person class called inventory
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2014-04-29T08:03:29Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: Could you paste some example code to illustrate the problem? (You can use http://paste.lisp.org/new )
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2014-04-29T08:04:14Z ProbonoBonobo: Yeah for sure.  Hold one sec...
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2014-04-29T08:07:34Z ProbonoBonobo: Here's the heart and soul of the codebase we were given: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TE.
2014-04-29T08:10:04Z ProbonoBonobo: Here's a minor dependency required for execution http://paste.lisp.org/+31TF.
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2014-04-29T08:12:49Z ProbonoBonobo: and here is the definition of class objects i'm currently editing http://paste.lisp.org/+31TG.
2014-04-29T08:19:09Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: Is there a reason why thing isn't using define-class?
2014-04-29T08:21:39Z ProbonoBonobo: The question I'm working on asks us to translate that notation into the define-class macro notation - good catch
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2014-04-29T08:24:33Z pjdelport: oh, okay
2014-04-29T08:24:45Z pjdelport: yeah, that should be a good first step, then
2014-04-29T08:27:48Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: I haven't read through all the code, but as a first guess, once everything else is working, you should be able to implement take-all as simply calling take against each of the of the objects in its list of arguments
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2014-04-29T08:54:41Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: shouldn't thing be an object?
2014-04-29T08:54:57Z pjb: Yeah.
2014-04-29T08:56:05Z ProbonoBonobo: Sorry, you're right - I meant object.  Define-class is a macro procedure though, I think
2014-04-29T08:56:28Z ProbonoBonobo: unfortunately I wouldn't really know, because we haven't covered that notation
2014-04-29T08:56:41Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: now, if a thing can be owned by a single owner, perhaps there should be a reference from the thing to the owner.  So that you can have a release method on things that sends the untake message to its owner.  This would simplify your person take method.
2014-04-29T08:57:15Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: define-class is a macro, yes
2014-04-29T08:57:21Z pjb: What does (define-class (person name place) ...) mean?
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2014-04-29T08:58:56Z pjb: are name and place the superclasses of person?
2014-04-29T08:59:14Z pjb: Or are they instance variables initialized by a constructor?
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2014-04-29T08:59:36Z ProbonoBonobo: The way that I'm defining this now... I *think* this should satisfy the condition you're describing.  I'm instantiating each object with a null owner, and take would ask the object to change that variable to the caller
2014-04-29T09:00:16Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: Can't you explain your language?
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2014-04-29T09:00:26Z pjb: If you can't explain it, how can you use it?
2014-04-29T09:00:33Z pjb: What does (define-class (person name place) ...) mean?
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2014-04-29T09:01:30Z pjb: It looks like it's a constructor signature.
2014-04-29T09:01:51Z pjb: So your define thing form probably doesn't do what you mean.
2014-04-29T09:01:57Z pjb: First, the first lambda is dead code.
2014-04-29T09:02:42Z pjb: Let's forget it, and define a class instead: (define-class (thing place) …)
2014-04-29T09:03:02Z ProbonoBonobo: Sorry, I'm trying to understand your earlier point a little better
2014-04-29T09:03:45Z ProbonoBonobo: Sure, so a thing is defined with the place in which it appears
2014-04-29T09:03:51Z pjb: Oh, you only have one lambda in the let form. So the let is useless, and you need to use a better editor.  Use emacs with paredit, it will indent your code correctly automatically.
2014-04-29T09:04:18Z pjb: You have a define-class operator.  Use it, instead of writing assembler code.
2014-04-29T09:04:50Z pjb: When you have high level operators are your disposal, using lower level operators, even if it's lambda, is akin to using assembler.
2014-04-29T09:05:13Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm using emacs for this right now... what gives the impression otherwise?
2014-04-29T09:05:36Z pjb: Because it's ill indented.  You should add paredit.
2014-04-29T09:05:45Z pjb: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/ParEdit
2014-04-29T09:06:08Z ProbonoBonobo: ah. got it
2014-04-29T09:06:43Z pjb: Otherwise, you should use M-q or C-M-\ a lot.
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2014-04-29T09:08:43Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm not sure that I follow what you mean when you say that there's one lambda in the let form
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2014-04-29T09:09:41Z ProbonoBonobo: That's true of the lambda notation version I'm rewriting into the define-class syntax, but define-class appears to be able to take an arbitrary number of initialization arguments, right?
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2014-04-29T09:33:19Z pjb: I mean: (define (count-subforms operator form) (cond ((null? form) 0) ((not (pair? (car form))) (count-subforms operator (cdr form))) ((eqv? operator (caar form)) (+ 1 (count-subforms operator (cdr form)))) (else (count-subforms operator (cdr form)))))
2014-04-29T09:33:22Z pjb: (count-subforms 'lambda '(let …)) -->  1
2014-04-29T09:36:26Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TI
2014-04-29T09:37:14Z pjb: The problem came from your use of TAB in text files.  TAB should NOT be used in text file!  This is an ASCII CONTROL CODE, designed to CONTROL physical devices such as printers or teletypes.
2014-04-29T09:37:20Z pjb: Use spaces to indent!
2014-04-29T09:37:44Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NoTabs
2014-04-29T09:38:05Z ecraven: pjb: tell that to Makefiles!
2014-04-29T09:38:17Z pjb: So with TAB, the toplevel lambda and the embeded lambda appeared aligned, like if there were two lambda in the let form.
2014-04-29T09:38:22Z pjb: ecraven: exactly!
2014-04-29T09:38:42Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm not using TAB :-\ but I wouldn't be surprised if my OSX version of emacs does something horrible to the text file
2014-04-29T09:38:52Z ecraven: one of these days I should setup Emacs to never use TABs except for Makefiles
2014-04-29T09:39:25Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo:  you have to configure it  http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NoTabs
2014-04-29T09:40:27Z ProbonoBonobo: ah, gotcha.  thanks for alerting me to the distinction
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2014-04-29T09:47:01Z ProbonoBonobo: so, your version written in the form of higher level abstractions ... this makes sense, but I'm struggling to make sense of the self variable
2014-04-29T09:47:29Z pjb: self is the object itself.
2014-04-29T09:47:40Z pjb: the one that's receiving the message, and executing the method.
2014-04-29T09:49:51Z pjb: ProbonoBonobo: there's an error in translate
2014-04-29T09:50:06Z pjb: Before returning dispatch, it should set self with it: (set! self dispatch)
2014-04-29T09:50:20Z ProbonoBonobo: got it.  interesting.  so the self is really another instance of the object, but its scope is purely contained in the local frame of the object definition itself?
2014-04-29T09:50:34Z pjb: It's not another instance. It's another name.
2014-04-29T09:50:53Z pjb: It's a local variable that refers to the object itself inside the methods of the object.
2014-04-29T09:52:06Z pjb: (define-class (example name) (method (myself) self)) (let ((o (example "john"))) (eqv? o (ask 'myself o))) should return #t
2014-04-29T09:52:21Z pjb: with the patch I proposed above.
2014-04-29T09:53:09Z pjb: Ah, perhaps it's done in init-clause.
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2014-04-29T09:54:35Z ProbonoBonobo: got it. yes, right.  it couldn't be another instance, because this would only update the variables of an object to which no other entity of the program has access
2014-04-29T09:55:34Z ProbonoBonobo: hence why it's another name instead
2014-04-29T09:57:33Z pjb: (define a (example "mary
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2014-04-29T09:57:55Z pjb: (define a (example "mary")) (define b a) (let ((c b)) '(a b and c are names for the mary object))
2014-04-29T09:58:24Z pjb: which means they're variables referencing the same object.
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2014-04-29T10:03:07Z ProbonoBonobo: oh, oh, oh... right, and the reason for defining the 'myself method is because the name self only works as the direct object of a method
2014-04-29T10:03:37Z pjb: This is a "getter" that lets you get the value bound to self, from outside the object.
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2014-04-29T10:05:17Z ProbonoBonobo: hard to conceptualize neatly.  but i see what you are saying
2014-04-29T10:06:45Z ProbonoBonobo: wait... is this iteration?
2014-04-29T10:06:52Z pjb: The variables inside the closure is completely hidden to the outside.  Only the functions inside the closure can access them.  The object system defined in obj.scm doesn't allow adding new methods to an object.  So if you want to get the value bound to a variable inside the closure (an instance variable or a parameter of the object), the only way is to define a method that gives this value.
2014-04-29T10:06:57Z pjb: No iteration here.
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2014-04-29T10:14:18Z ProbonoBonobo: Got it.  Alright, conceptually this is starting to hang together much more neatly in my head
2014-04-29T10:15:20Z pjb: You could write an object system that would let you define the method after the class, where you could add or remove methods dynamically.
2014-04-29T10:15:52Z pjb: (define-class (class-name . parameters) (instance-vars …))  (define-method class-name (method-name . parameter) …)
2014-04-29T10:16:10Z ecraven: see tiny-clos for example
2014-04-29T10:16:18Z pjb: But it would be harder to access the instance variables from the methods defined outside.
2014-04-29T10:16:39Z pjb: In CLOS, we use (slot-value object instance-variable-name)
2014-04-29T10:16:41Z ProbonoBonobo: Hypothetically, is there a way for an object to return the methods that are defined for itself without getting into macro territory?
2014-04-29T10:16:46Z pjb: instance-variable = slot.
2014-04-29T10:17:08Z pjb: Why would you avoid macro territory? This is scheme!
2014-04-29T10:17:13Z pjb: translate is a function!
2014-04-29T10:17:49Z pjb: All the obj.scm is macro territory, there are only two macros in it!
2014-04-29T10:17:55Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm not willfully ignorant to it; we factually have not learned this concept in my course
2014-04-29T10:18:17Z ProbonoBonobo: right.  But you see now the point of my original confusion
2014-04-29T10:18:20Z pjb: A macro is just a function that takes a sexp and returns a sexp.
2014-04-29T10:19:15Z pjb: So yes, you could modify translate to add a method that would return a list of the name of all the methods.
2014-04-29T10:19:24Z pjb: You can add introspection features like that.
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2014-04-29T10:23:12Z ProbonoBonobo: so if a macro is a thing that takes an sexp and returns an sexp, ... is the y-combinator an instance of a macro?
2014-04-29T10:23:25Z ijp: no
2014-04-29T10:23:32Z pjb: it takes a function, not a sexp.
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2014-04-29T10:23:57Z pjb: Well, my definition of macro is a little too large.
2014-04-29T10:24:03Z ProbonoBonobo: ah. right, that's true
2014-04-29T10:24:59Z pjb: A macro can take any sexp as parameter, but in general it will be a sexp that's readable, atoms or lists.  And it returns an atom or a list that must be a lisp form.
2014-04-29T10:25:03Z ProbonoBonobo: for some reason we don't use "s expression" in my class.  that's just equivalent to a list of arbitrary depth, right?
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2014-04-29T10:25:53Z pjb: A Symbolic expression or S-exp can be also an atom. 1 is a sexp.  hello is a sexp. (1 hello)  is a sexp.  (1 hello) is not a form,  (hello 1) is a form.
2014-04-29T10:26:03Z pjb: A macro would return a form.
2014-04-29T10:26:32Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: Generally speaking, a macro is a syntax transformation (from an input program to an output program). There are numerous ways to approach it.
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2014-04-29T10:28:03Z ijp: ProbonoBonobo: it is perfectly possible to write a method that returns a list of methods that are valid for the object
2014-04-29T10:29:04Z ProbonoBonobo: I see.  Macro sounds like it's at the deeper side of the pool than the one we're currently wading
2014-04-29T10:29:50Z pjdelport: yeah
2014-04-29T10:29:58Z pjb: There's nothing more than a function that takes a list and returns a list.
2014-04-29T10:30:34Z pjb: If you can write a function that takes a list, transforms it (cf. the transform function in obj.scm for example) and returns a list, then you can write a macro.
2014-04-29T10:32:48Z ProbonoBonobo: We haven't covered transformation functions at all
2014-04-29T10:33:20Z pjb: ALL FUNCTIONS ARE TRANSFORMATION FUNCTIONS!
2014-04-29T10:33:40Z vraid: what about the identity function?
2014-04-29T10:33:49Z pjb: It's the IDENTITY transformation.
2014-04-29T10:34:21Z ijp: in other words, the term is completely meaningless
2014-04-29T10:34:29Z pjb: Suppose that you have an object with ten fields (= slots = instance-variables), and you want for each of them four functions, one to get the value, one to set the value, one to increment the value, and one to decrement the value.  So for a field x you have to write functions named set-x get-x inc-x and dec-x: (define (set-x o v) (ask o 'set-x v)) (define (set-y o v) (ask o 'set-y v)) (define (set-z o v) (ask o 'set-z v)) etc for ten
2014-04-29T10:34:29Z pjb: slots, and the same for the four functions.
2014-04-29T10:35:22Z pjb: Instead of doing copy-and-paste and editing, you could write a little function that would take a symbol naming the slot, and return a list containing those defines.  Then you could just write (map 'generate '(a b c d … x y z)) to get the list of all the functions you need.
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2014-04-29T10:35:41Z pjb: ijp: exactly. Macros are just functions, there's nothing more complex to it.
2014-04-29T10:37:06Z cleatoma: Macros are simple the way playing go is simple. You just put stones on the board, after all.
2014-04-29T10:37:17Z pjb: No, it's much simplier.
2014-04-29T10:37:26Z pjb: Just read the obj.scm for example.
2014-04-29T10:37:27Z pjb: bbl
2014-04-29T10:37:33Z ProbonoBonobo: I appreciate the help earlier, but it seems that you're pointing out exactly the reason for my frustration with the course that motivated me into this IRC in the first place
2014-04-29T10:37:52Z ProbonoBonobo: I'm not "copy-and-paste editing."
2014-04-29T10:38:10Z ProbonoBonobo: These are actual code blocks we're expected to work with on fiat
2014-04-29T10:38:33Z ProbonoBonobo: They are a required portion of a course that has not instructed us in their use
2014-04-29T10:38:39Z ijp: if you are frustrated with your course, you should bring up your concerns with your teacher.
2014-04-29T10:38:54Z ijp: think of it as a bug report
2014-04-29T10:40:22Z pjb: On the other hand, it's a good exercice to read the code provided, to understand it, to write its documentation, and to use it as expected: this is exactly the situation you will ALWAYS be in the real professionnal life as a programmer.
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2014-04-29T10:41:27Z pjb: I'll be back later if you need more help with functions making functions (aka macros).
2014-04-29T10:42:21Z ProbonoBonobo: heh.  "teacher"
2014-04-29T10:42:59Z ProbonoBonobo: I remember once a time when classes had teachers.  We just have TAs now at my prestigious university
2014-04-29T10:43:18Z ProbonoBonobo: the TAs aren't even graduate students, but fellow undergraduates
2014-04-29T10:43:39Z cleatoma: I missed the start of this conversation. Can you repeat the question?
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2014-04-29T10:45:50Z ProbonoBonobo: no questions on the table right now, just general programming advice for how to get through impasses
2014-04-29T10:47:26Z ijp: I find swearing invaluable
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2014-04-29T10:49:03Z cleatoma: The trick for me is to avoid distractions that use the same parts of my brain. So if I'm stuck on some programming, a break to walk around works. A break to browse the web doesn't.
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2014-04-29T10:53:09Z ProbonoBonobo: that's good advice.  the problem with pjb's advice to me earlier is that the solution offered (e.g. understand the code you're working with) restates the problem that i have (e.g. we are being asked to work with code that introduces new syntax and patterns that are unfamiliar to me), which is a frustrating position in which to be
2014-04-29T10:57:42Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: Is the course online, or anything?
2014-04-29T10:57:57Z pjdelport: How much are you actually expected to understand about the given code?
2014-04-29T10:58:12Z ProbonoBonobo: it's an experimental online/offline hybrid course
2014-04-29T10:58:19Z pjdelport: It's perfectly fine sometimes to treat some things just as givens; but it depends how the course is approaching its exposition.
2014-04-29T10:59:03Z ProbonoBonobo: such that we can appear at a lab between certain hours and receive help, but there are no lectures, and no discussion sections
2014-04-29T11:00:30Z ProbonoBonobo: the TAs have assured us that we do not have to pick up macro syntax for this exercise, that obj.scm is purely for convenience
2014-04-29T11:01:22Z cleatoma: Well you can either go with that, and treat obj.scm as a black box, or you can be a rebel and tackle macros.
2014-04-29T11:01:47Z cleatoma: The only losing option is to hover around inbetween, feeling bad about it.
2014-04-29T11:01:55Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: Diving into obj.scm and macros is probably a distraction, if the task at hand is just to implement some methods.
2014-04-29T11:02:03Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: You can always do that later. :)
2014-04-29T11:02:54Z ProbonoBonobo: i've been working through seasoned schemer, but i have difficulty understanding where it converges with an exercise like this
2014-04-29T11:03:33Z ProbonoBonobo: it seems like letrec syntax could support internal definitions within a class-like object...
2014-04-29T11:05:36Z ProbonoBonobo: and the let/cc primitive, that's neat and peculiar.  i can see how that might perform a function similar to a "getter" like was talked about earlier
2014-04-29T11:06:26Z pjdelport: let/cc and continuations are probably not quite in scope for this
2014-04-29T11:08:54Z ProbonoBonobo: when pjb earlier described a possible implementation of a 'myself method... this sounds like let/cc to me.  is it not?
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2014-04-29T11:10:48Z pjdelport: ProbonoBonobo: I didn't follow along with everything; but do we have the same let/cc in mind? Do you mean the continuation operator, or something else?
2014-04-29T11:11:06Z pjdelport: (letrec and let/cc are quite different)
2014-04-29T11:12:01Z ProbonoBonobo: i'm more familiar with letrec than let/cc.  let/cc has barely entered into the exercises i've done in seasoned schemer
2014-04-29T11:12:28Z ProbonoBonobo: so i'll take your word for it that it's beyond the scope.  :)
2014-04-29T11:12:39Z pjb: It's vaguely similar.  But you shouldn't think in these terms.  You should think about what it means at a higher level.
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2014-04-29T11:13:06Z pjb: At the higher level, we have an object, to which we can send a message named myself, and which has a method that when it receives this message, returns itself.
2014-04-29T11:13:16Z pjb: So (eqv? (ask o 'myself) o) is true.
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2014-04-29T11:14:31Z pjb: The reason why you shouldn't be too concerned by how it's implemented, is that this implementation could be different.  Here the define-class uses closures to represent the objects.   It could have used vectors, structures, anything.
2014-04-29T11:18:23Z ProbonoBonobo: Alright, 4:19AM.  I'm calling it an evening
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2014-04-29T11:20:32Z ProbonoBonobo: I appreciate the help, mates.  Thanks for explaining
2014-04-29T11:20:57Z pjb: Good night!
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2014-04-29T17:36:52Z Gyps: Quick question, are there any resources you guys would suggest looking at when trying to learn scheme recursive topics
2014-04-29T17:37:02Z Gyps: Ive been using this a bit http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
2014-04-29T17:37:45Z Gyps: I've got a final coming up using scheme and need to work some problems out
2014-04-29T17:38:18Z pjdelport: SICP is good in general, but if you have specific problems, it's probably quicker to just ask here.
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2014-04-29T17:39:36Z Gyps: Are you familiar with images in scheme
2014-04-29T17:39:43Z Gyps: We have a built in library for it
2014-04-29T17:40:00Z pjdelport: as in graphics?
2014-04-29T17:40:01Z Gyps: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/cgi-pub/c211/wombat/docs/c211-image.htm
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2014-04-29T17:40:51Z pjdelport: ah, okay
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2014-04-29T17:42:05Z Gyps: So we have to define a function that takes an image imgage, a row index (start-row,) a column index (start-col), a height , and a width , and changes each pixel in a rectangular subimage of img to black and white. The rectangular subimage is defined by its top left location (start-row, start-col), its width with w cols, and its height with h rows.
2014-04-29T17:42:56Z Gyps: so basically its outputting a rectangle of black and white pixels deepening on the subimage given
2014-04-29T17:43:05Z Gyps: and the rest of the image is untouched
2014-04-29T17:43:38Z pjdelport: okay
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2014-04-29T17:46:58Z pjdelport: Gyps: If you have code so far, you can paste it at http://paste.lisp.org/new
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2014-04-30T10:25:43Z jim: Hi. I'm looking to enumerate combinations of 2 kinds of things that can appear in each of N containers, for example if I want red (r) and green (g), I might want to have six greens in 8 containers, so two are left for red, and one possible combination might be '(g g g g g g r r): 6
2014-04-30T10:25:50Z jim: gs and 2 rs
2014-04-30T10:27:20Z jim: I'm looking for an algorithm that can enumerate the combinations, another of which might be '(g g g g g r g r)
2014-04-30T10:35:18Z pjb: If there's 0 containers, it's simple: return ().
2014-04-30T10:36:23Z jim: sure (did I say 0? hmm, sorry about that)
2014-04-30T10:36:26Z pjb: If there are more, then just combine the case when there's 1 less, with more.
2014-04-30T10:37:11Z pjb: ie. if there are n containers, and you know all the combinations for n-1 containers, then how do you build the combinations for n containers from the combinations for n-1?
2014-04-30T10:38:26Z jim: that's the typical inductive reasoning, yes?
2014-04-30T10:39:02Z pjb: that will lead to a recursive solution.
2014-04-30T10:39:29Z pjb: Now, the number of containers is not the only parameters, you also need to take into account the various numbers of colors.
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2014-04-30T10:40:24Z ecraven: does anyone know of a tool or library to plot different timespans (1999-01-10 - 2001-03-05, 1998-03-17 - 2003-05-27, ...) as horizontal lines to compare them visually?
2014-04-30T10:40:52Z jim: when I would call this func, the number of containers results from counting the list items in the arg... (well if that's how I'd present the arg)
2014-04-30T10:41:23Z jim: for example I might say (combinations '(g g g g g g r r))
2014-04-30T10:41:55Z jim: then you count the list to find 8, that's going to be the number of containers
2014-04-30T10:43:23Z jim: am I using the right word "combinations" for this?
2014-04-30T10:44:06Z pjb: combinations is a specific case. I think the generic term is arrangements.  With or without repeat.
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2014-04-30T10:45:48Z jim: so, (g g g g g g r r) would be one, if you exchanged the first two gs that would not yield a different ordering
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2014-04-30T10:47:19Z pjb: In combinations, the order doesn't matter.
2014-04-30T10:47:47Z pjb: So here you have arrangements, with repeats, but with a maximum number of elements of each kind.
2014-04-30T10:47:49Z jim: so maybe combinations isn't the right word
2014-04-30T10:49:15Z pjb: So you could define a function such as: (arrangements 8 '((g 6) (r 2)))
2014-04-30T10:49:42Z jim: one thing I thought, what if I could come up with a way, given one arrangement, return the next arrangement, or nil if given the last possible
2014-04-30T10:49:51Z pjb: (arrangements 0 kinds) --> (()),  (arrangements n '()) --> ()
2014-04-30T10:50:18Z pjb: (arragements 1 kinds) --> (map (lambda (kind) (list (car kind))) kinds)
2014-04-30T10:51:34Z pjb: and now, you need to find the formula for (arrangements n kinds) using (arrangements (- n 1) kinds) and (arrangements (-n 1) (kinds-without-one kinds kind)).
2014-04-30T10:52:02Z pjb: Yes, you may also find a way to enumerate them, instead of building them.
2014-04-30T10:52:19Z pjb: The advantage of enumerating them is that you can start doing it even if you couldn't terminate before the end of the universe.
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2014-04-30T11:01:01Z jim: so if I'm going to enumerate them, it would be nice to know the first and last one... maybe the first is '(g g g g g g r r) and the last is '(r r g g g g g g)
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2014-04-30T11:01:45Z pjb: Yes, it is good to be able to order the enumerated things.
2014-04-30T11:02:21Z jim: then the "next"er would need to have the order be such that those are the first and last (I would imagine there can be other workable possibiloities)
2014-04-30T11:02:39Z pjb: If you can index them it's even better: when you have a mapping from integers to the enumerated objects, that lets you build the enumerated object from the index, it's great.
2014-04-30T11:03:00Z pjb: jim: to enumerate, you need an algorithm to compute the successor.
2014-04-30T11:03:22Z jim: that's what I'm calling the "next"er
2014-04-30T11:03:26Z pjb: So (next-arrangement 8 '((g 6) (r 2)) '(g g r g g r g g)) --> ?
2014-04-30T11:04:27Z jim: maybe it's '(g g r g r g g g)?
2014-04-30T11:04:51Z pjb: May be.  It's up to you as a programmer to find out this rule.
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2014-04-30T11:11:37Z pjb: jim: when there are only two kinds, it's simple, but with more kinds, it may be more complex to find a good successor function.
2014-04-30T11:12:25Z pjb: Also, if the total number of tokens is greater than the number of containers.
2014-04-30T11:12:54Z pjb: (arrangements 8 ((r 2) (g 6) (b 4)))
2014-04-30T11:14:04Z jim: to simplify a bit, maybe you add 2 + 6 + 4 to get containers
2014-04-30T11:14:09Z pjb: You can go  from (b b b b g g g g) to (r r g g g g g g)
2014-04-30T11:17:36Z jim: I would imagine the successor func would need a value plus the "parameters"
2014-04-30T11:19:00Z jim: like, (successor 8 '((r 2) (g 6) (b 4)) '(b b b b g g g g))
2014-04-30T11:21:00Z pjb: Yes.
2014-04-30T11:21:29Z pjb: You may also have a mutable data structure to help perform the increment.
2014-04-30T11:22:58Z jim: you mean like a global (or to some degree non-local) var?
2014-04-30T11:34:14Z jim: or a list structure that represents the container size and the individual elements?
2014-04-30T11:34:31Z pjb: Not a global, but a parameter.
2014-04-30T11:35:13Z pjb: You would define an arrangement iterator as an object with state that you would pass to the function (or to which you would send a message) to get the successor.
2014-04-30T11:37:14Z jim: so arrangements might take containers and elements and listify them, like: (successor '(8 ((r 4) (g 6) (b 2)) state)
2014-04-30T11:38:20Z jim: those different choices are orthogonal to how I'm gonna come up with that successor rule
2014-04-30T11:41:47Z pjb: yes
2014-04-30T11:41:52Z jim: and if total containers is less than the sum of elements, makes this a much harder problem
2014-04-30T11:42:36Z jim: makes there be more than one possible successor
2014-04-30T11:42:45Z pjb: Now, if you have a small enough number of arrangements, I feel that building a function that constructs them recursively would be easier to do than to implement an iterator computing the successors.
2014-04-30T11:43:32Z jim: because if that number is too large I'll run out of ram? :)
2014-04-30T11:44:01Z pjb: More often, you run out of time :-)
2014-04-30T11:44:19Z pjb: But yes, you can also fill the RAM with all the arrangements.
2014-04-30T11:44:47Z pjb: To find algorithms, you can just try to do it yourself by hand. (use peas or coins, or anything you want).
2014-04-30T11:45:17Z jim: let's see what will happen first... function completes, sun supernovas, universe disintegrates (if it were ever integrated)
2014-04-30T11:46:02Z pjb: The prototypal iterator, is the decimal counter, like an odometer, where the unit wheel increments, and when you reach 9, the next wheel increments along, with the carry.
2014-04-30T11:46:19Z jim: but, I hope to keep the number of these things down to the point I can print them in less than say 30 pgs
2014-04-30T11:46:22Z pjb: Usually, Sun supernovaes first.
2014-04-30T11:47:25Z pjb: Mind you, 4 billion years is on 1.26144E+17 seconds away!
2014-04-30T11:47:38Z pjb: on;y
2014-04-30T11:47:40Z pjb: onlu
2014-04-30T11:47:48Z pjb: well, you get it.
2014-04-30T11:48:09Z jim: yeah :)
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2014-04-30T11:51:21Z jim: for the case with 2 element types where the sum of the number of them defines the container size...
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2014-04-30T13:08:48Z pjb: jim: if you want to see a solution: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TZ
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2014-04-30T13:16:46Z jim: pjb, did you write that? either way thanks!
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2014-04-30T13:23:46Z pjb: Of course, I just did.
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2014-04-30T14:20:39Z jim: pjb, many thanks... so you did a recursive solution?
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2014-04-30T14:22:01Z jim: I see lotsa maps, let and let*s, and even an apply
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2014-04-30T14:23:12Z vanila: where?
2014-04-30T14:23:31Z jim: he did a pastebin
2014-04-30T14:23:52Z jim: http://paste.lisp.org/+31TZ
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