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Some idiot broke `forward-sexp' in GNU Emacs 24.3. 06:19:59 (along with various other standard S-expression operations) 06:20:50 !! 06:34:34 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 06:35:26 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:36:06 effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has joined #scheme 06:36:17 -!- effy [~x@114.252.51.219] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:19 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 06:42:19 -!- cheesus [~chchjesus@101.98.133.191] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:42:39 cheesus [~chchjesus@101.98.133.191] has joined #scheme 06:51:52 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #scheme 06:52:08 "broke", "broke", what a big word! Where's the emacs lisp standard specification? 06:52:54 There isn't much of one, but there is behaviour that has been consistent for decades that many programs rely heavily on. 06:54:17 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-89-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:57:40 levi [~user@c-174-52-89-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:02:09 leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has joined #scheme 07:02:14 -!- leo2007 [~leo@124.64.107.131] has left #scheme 07:12:42 hatFolk [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 07:18:29 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 07:27:15 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:31:19 -!- hatFolk [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:31:47 jewel [~jewel@197.111.223.250] has joined #scheme 07:49:02 -!- levi [~user@c-174-52-89-43.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:57:35 zacts [~user@unaffiliated/zacts] has joined 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[~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 18:20:21 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD602D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:24:47 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:26:39 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@2601:b:c400:8de:49c:5758:2a9c:e678] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:40:45 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:50:38 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:58:06 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA3D02.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:59:55 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A6A290.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:00:11 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD602D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:01:00 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 19:01:28 just curious....wouldn't modify be a better name for the set! command since it changes *existing* variables? 19:03:13 Well, to modify something, there must be an existing something to be modified. 19:03:31 But to set a variable, it doesn't need to be bound to anything yet. 19:03:55 to set = To place something somewhere ; to modify = To change in form or character. 19:07:24 hatFolk [~hatFolk@ip68-100-228-234.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:08:45 erider [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/erider] has joined #scheme 19:12:19 pjb: i thought for a NEW variable you did (define two 2) but for an existing variable you do (set! two "two") 19:12:32 pjb: isn't that why we have 2 commands...define and set! ? 19:14:38 rgc [~user@95.Red-83-33-70.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:15:48 Yes. pjb sometimes (apparently intentionally, as far as I can tell) confuses Scheme and Common Lisp in #scheme. 19:18:48 Riastradh: thanks...so my original question still stands....wouldn't modify! have been at least as good if not a better name than set! ? 19:19:10 Well, it's almost twice as long... 19:19:42 if you want a name to fix, fix cond 19:20:39 In T, which introduced the ! convention among others, (SET x e) meant set x to the value of e, independent of what value x had before, and (MODIFY x f) meant set x to the value of (f x), or `modify its value by f'. 19:21:01 (The ! didn't get stuck on SET or MODIFY in spite of this convention, until later.) 19:21:53 and the name set had been around for longer than scheme, but it operated on symbols 19:22:02 That doesn't explain why ASET wasn't called AMODIFY in the original Scheme, or what the `A' was doing there in the first place (I don't remember! but at least it's gone now), but it does offer a useful retcon. 19:22:46 These days, you might find (VECTOR-SET! v i x) and (VECTOR-MODIFY! v i f) which does (VECTOR-SET! v i (f (VECTOR-REF v i))). 19:22:52 And other similar patterns. 19:24:36 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:31:03 Riastradh: wow...you are a regular scheme historian 19:31:29 ijp: well this isn't a "fix" for cond but a suggestion...just use if instead and pretend cond isn't there!?! :) 19:31:43 Well, COND has been there since the very, very beginning, in 1958... 19:32:08 ijp: iow...no language has everything perfect the way you want but maybe you can at least use a perfect subset 19:32:45 Riastradh: yes..props to McCarthy for inventing conditionals but that doesn't mean we need to name them like he did 19:33:46 Riastradh: fwiw..i'm kinda jealous of McCarthy for inventing Lisp in 1950s...it was soo ahead of its time that he comes across like a supergenius sage of comp sci 19:33:53 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 19:33:54 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #scheme 19:33:59 that appeared from the future to evolve the 1950s a bit 19:34:20 it had sooo many things that were novel it was freaky 19:34:47 theseb: now apply the "no language is perfect" to the name of set! 19:34:54 and you're done 19:36:32 ijp: lisp at least allows you to create your own language...e.g. (define modify! set!) 19:36:48 now *that's* power 19:36:55 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD602D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:37:19 Well... (define-syntax modify! 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[~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 03:04:28 -!- pierpa [~user@host198-93-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:18:38 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 03:19:02 just to verify....so if you define a variable in the global environment it is visible EVERYWHERE to aLL macros and functions? 03:19:16 Also, Only function invocations, define and set! and modify the environments? 03:20:45 juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 03:22:45 I'm having a hard time picturing environments in my head since there is more than one.....iirc everytime a function is called it bolts a new level to the global environment which isn't easy to hold in my head when there are lots of func calls nested 03:25:20 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 03:32:02 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #scheme 03:34:10 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Client Quit] 03:34:34 pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has joined #scheme 03:40:54 theseb: yes. but standard macros are not aware of variables anyway, afaik, and it's hard to say about non-standard ones (but they should see those variables if they could operate them, i think, otherwise it will not make sense). and i don't think it's right to say that function invocations modify environments, it's more like making new environments with additional variables bound into them. and internal (non-top-level) definitions are 03:40:54 closer to letrec* than to set!: they are binding variables, but not modifying environment 03:42:43 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 03:45:39 -!- pecg [~pecg@unaffiliated/pecg] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2] 03:59:08 -!- leoe [~zzach@dslb-088-078-222-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:59:21 leoe [~zzach@dslb-088-076-083-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:53 cataska [~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 04:07:53 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye!] 04:09:43 defanor-: wait....that is useful....so macros never use variables? 04:11:16 theseb: standard macros (with syntax-rules) can't operate their values, afaik, but not-that-standard ones (syntax-case) can do that 04:12:37 defanor-: thanks! is the reason macros can't use/see variables because they do their thing before the eval sees their results? 04:13:28 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:14:24 theseb: yw. and yes, i think: syntax-rules just deal with syntax 04:14:48 like "take this, place it there" 04:16:03 oh, wait, probably syntax-case can't read them also 04:16:28 yes, most likely 04:20:18 the most confusing thing about environments imho is that in lexical scoping a lambda function always operates with the environment *at the point it was created*...that's pretty funky 04:20:37 juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 04:20:51 everything else about environments is pretty straight forward 04:24:58 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:29:04 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 04:41:29 theseb: how is that at all different from other implications of lexical scope? 04:41:36 I don't get why that would be confusing 04:42:16 nisstyre: it means in a scheme implementation you have to store the environment with the lambda function 04:42:24 theseb: it depends how it's implemented 04:42:29 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 04:42:33 nisstyre: it isn't impossible...just weird 04:43:09 theseb: the only constraint is that you can access names bound in the environment where the lambda is created 04:43:43 right 04:43:47 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 04:44:11 nisstyre: basically to implement scheme like i'm trying to do you need to do a lot of bookkeeping to deal with environments..to make sure 04:44:17 you are using the right one in the right place 04:44:24 that's all 04:44:37 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD602D1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 04:44:39 imho it is the most confusing thing so far about implementing a baby scheme subset 04:44:39 theseb: again it actually very much depends on how you implement it 04:45:06 nisstyre: is there an easier way? 04:45:07 are you writing just an interpreter? 04:45:11 yes 04:45:16 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6374D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 04:46:36 theseb: it 04:46:42 it's kind of out of scope for irc 04:47:22 theseb: but look here http://cs.brown.edu/courses/cs173/2012/book/From_Substitution_to_Environments.html 04:47:23 http://tinyurl.com/ltbrs5r 04:47:37 thanks 04:48:20 theseb: PL:AI doesn't go very in-depth though 04:48:36 if you're willing to shell out bucks then Lisp In Small Pieces goes much more in-depth 04:53:22 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6374D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 04:54:51 palach [~palach@92.55.10.190] has joined #scheme 05:00:22 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:02:24 CosmikDaniel [~CosmikDan@pa49-180-114-242.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 05:02:26 You all work for Brother Miguel, so that you may keep me his. 05:02:58 -!- CosmikDaniel [~CosmikDan@pa49-180-114-242.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [] 05:03:18 CosmikDaniel [~CosmikDan@pa49-180-114-242.pa.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 05:04:21 jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has joined #scheme 05:04:22 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has quit [Changing host] 05:04:22 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 05:05:59 -!- palach [~palach@92.55.10.190] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:30:38 -!- fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 11:35:21 marcoecc [~user@ec2-184-73-245-68.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 11:42:33 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:43:31 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-225-75.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 241 seconds] 11:46:41 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:58:00 defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 12:00:05 -!- defanor_ [~defanor@ppp85-141-225-99.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 12:00:11 -!- defanor- [~defanor@ppp85-141-225-99.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients] 12:14:13 nalaginrut [~nalaginru@203.192.156.9] has joined #scheme 12:14:16 Is it a good idea to make Scheme as IR? 12:16:57 Worse things have been done. 12:17:04 One good thing is that r5rs is formally specified (at least in part). 12:20:17 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:52:38 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 12:57:56 -!- nalaginrut [~nalaginru@203.192.156.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:07:09 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6374D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:07:44 nurikami [~nur@237.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:12 Rodya_ [~trav@2601:b:c400:8de:49c:5758:2a9c:e678] has joined #scheme 13:10:07 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 13:17:47 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:19:10 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 13:21:41 Siet9 [~other@188.162.65.55] has joined #scheme 13:21:59 Hello. 13:24:20 -!- bernalex [~alexander@fsf/member/alexanderb] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 13:24:21 having 2D space of points(x,y integers) i'm having hard time understading how to split that space in voronoi cells 13:24:33 is there some realted examples in scheme? 13:26:06 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp85-141-230-231.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:28:31 pierpa [~user@host198-93-dynamic.55-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 13:28:41 bernalex [~alexander@107.4.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 13:52:40 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-144-87.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:53:30 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-192-154.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:59:45 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@2601:b:c400:8de:49c:5758:2a9c:e678] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:02:58 LinearInterpol [~RJones@169.244.180.190] has joined #scheme 14:03:35 -!- bernalex [~alexander@107.4.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Changing host] 14:03:38 bernalex [~alexander@fsf/member/alexanderb] has joined #scheme 14:04:46 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:27:44 Siet9: I don't see how restricting it to integer coordinates makes it any different than the normal algorithm to determine voronoi cells. If at all, it simplifies it a lot. So what's your problem? 14:29:15 pjb: i'm just stuck at start point, looking at that pseudocode algorythm and it looks quite complicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortune's_algorithm 14:31:30 so i came here to ask if there is any simple scheme examples of that algorithm. 14:33:19 for example what is S there, or what is minimal Y or boundary ray, etc 14:33:38 i don't see any explicit descr8iption of that stuff on wiki 14:35:22 -!- nycs is now known as `^_^v 14:39:52 fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has joined #scheme 14:42:00 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 14:42:22 Siet9: yeah, that's the problem with mathematicians: they don't bother with providing runnable code :-( 14:43:42 Perhaps you should check the implementations referenced? 14:55:48 -!- ubii_ [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56:06 ubii_ [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has joined #scheme 14:57:42 -!- ubii_ is now known as ubii 14:58:36 -!- ubii [~ubii@198.45.198.1] has quit [Changing host] 14:58:36 ubii [~ubii@unaffiliated/ubii] has joined #scheme 15:11:32 Chillectual [~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us] has joined #scheme 15:12:39 -!- LinearInterpol [~RJones@169.244.180.190] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:12:43 -!- Chillectual is now known as LinearInterpol 15:13:33 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6374D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:14:10 Chillectual [~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us] has joined #scheme 15:14:41 -!- LinearInterpol [~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us] has quit [Disconnected by services] 15:14:44 -!- Chillectual is now known as LinearInterpol 15:16:36 -!- fire [~fire@unaffiliated/security] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 15:19:22 -!- dkordic [~danilo@93-86-155-154.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:26:42 -!- nurikami [~nur@237.Red-79-158-106.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: nurikami] 15:30:30 fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has joined #scheme 15:37:40 -!- LinearInterpol [~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:39:34 weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 15:50:02 -!- hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:51:24 hive-mind [pranq@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 15:51:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53:55 hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:01:24 LinearInterpol [~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us] has joined #scheme 16:09:40 -!- Siet9 [~other@188.162.65.55] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:25:20 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@p54A69ED2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:25:57 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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I just noticed I can't (if foo (begin (define ...) ...)) 15:26:04 I think it _used_ to work that way in older standards. 15:26:08 (I don't expect that to define in the outer scope, just locally as if I did (let () (define ...) ...) or (let ((...)) ...).) 15:31:22 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:33:11 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:34:37 You could also just write (let () ...). 15:34:49 If you omit the space -- which you can -- then `let()' is even the same number of characters as `begin'. 15:38:12 fewer, as you can omit the space after the () :) 15:38:27 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 15:38:52 getcher bad ideas, hot n fresh, bad ideas onna stick 15:40:28 :-D 15:40:57 scheme is not the best fit for optimizing character count 15:41:08 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 15:41:08 stamourv [~user@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:41:08 -!- stamourv [~user@syrah.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:08 stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has joined #scheme 15:41:19 really? 15:41:42 (define-syntax-rule (bgn x ...) (let () x ...)) 15:41:43 :) 15:42:04 it's a twoferone on bad ideas 15:42:09 LOL 15:42:36 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 15:43:52 If we can *always* just use let() in place of expression-begin, then expression-begin is of course redundant, though it should obviously be kept for compatibility and I'd say it's stylistically preferable, so would it make sense for an implementation to extend the standard by simply implementing expression-begin as let() ? 15:44:21 (Well, encouraging unportable code aside ..) 15:45:21 http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/post/36425232183/when-a-language-designer-talks-about-their-ideas-of 15:45:22 http://tinyurl.com/ljttp2f 15:45:56 wingo: :-) 15:46:54 Hehe. Was that at me though ? I'm not proposing any change to lexical scope, just making expression `begin' introduce one .. 15:46:55 wingo: don't you mean (define-syntax-rule(bgn x ...)(let()x ...)) 15:47:46 dude that is so SEMANTIC, I love it! 15:49:08 samth: you probably leave out your semicolons in js too ;-) 15:49:09 wingo: great blog; dunno how I'd missed it all these years. 15:49:20 offby1: thanks! 15:49:36 oh you refer to thispltlife :) 15:49:46 that's an msimoni thing iirc 15:49:47 ya 15:50:39 is there anything like parenscript for scheme? 15:50:55 davexunit: How do you mean ? 15:51:14 If you mean compiling Scheme to JS or interpreting Scheme in JS, plenty .. 15:51:15 davexunit: i think hop has something (talk to civodul about that) 15:51:44 hop still exists? Haven't heard of it in years 15:51:49 wingo: oh cool. 15:51:54 yep, still a thing apparently 15:51:59 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:51:59 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:51:59 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 15:52:01 taylanub: yeah compiling Scheme to JS. 15:52:11 this is for CL: https://github.com/vsedach/Parenscript 15:52:39 so you write your web server in CL *and* the client side code, too. 15:52:46 http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html 15:52:59 I am jealous of CL for some of its libraries. 15:53:06 first rule of scheme: it's been done, 50 times, and they all suck 15:53:23 I've seen several Scheme interpreters written in JS, but that's not what I'm after. 15:53:48 ijp: that's so... depressing. 15:53:57 Using the same language on both server and client shouldn't put you under the illusion that you'll have better integration than any two arbitrary languages that can read/write a certain data serialization. 15:55:01 bitter ijp :) 15:55:27 taylanub: I just want to not write javascript. CLers get to write javascript by pretending they're writing CL. :P 15:56:30 -!- ijp [~user@host217-44-40-115.range217-44.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: fleeing from the vast hordes of ijp groupies] 15:56:41 I guess I want a sexp to javascript compiler. parenscript is real neat but I need a common lisp implementation to use it. 15:57:01 I'm not actually looking for features like tail-calls and continuations. 15:57:12 fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:42b:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has joined #scheme 15:57:13 though that would be realy cool. 16:00:07 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:02:04 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #scheme 16:05:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:42b:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:07:17 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:12:26 juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:13:43 annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:44 -!- annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:13:44 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 16:13:57 -!- juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:14:19 davexunit: there are several Scheme-to-JS compilers, including scheme2js (part of Hop), and SPOCK (related to CHICKEN) 16:16:13 karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has joined #scheme 16:17:11 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:19:09 -!- b4283 [~b4283@218-164-219-139.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ] 16:21:38 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26:39 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 16:28:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:31:43 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #scheme 16:34:31 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@89.202.203.51] has joined #scheme 16:36:15 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:40:01 davexunit: http://ceaude.twoticketsplease.de/js-lisps.html 16:40:45 BW^- [~Miranda@81-233-163-166-no84.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 16:40:48 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@81-233-163-166-no84.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Changing host] 16:40:48 BW^- [~Miranda@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has joined #scheme 16:40:52 is there any simple way using LOG or alike that the number of decimals in a rational could be counted? 16:41:17 so say 1.23478289348923749872394728934 , that becomes 61739144674461874936197364467/50000000000000000000000000000 on exact parsing 16:41:22 how do we determine how many decimals it has 16:41:38 convert it to inexact and see how many digits are after the dot? :) 16:42:38 davexunit: sorry, just seen in the backlog that link has already been mentioned by taylanub 16:44:42 elly: that implies conversion to the IEEEE 64bit double format, which has a limited number of decimals! 16:44:53 elly: so there's Huge imprecision and that's exactly what i'm trying to get rido f. 16:44:55 hrm 16:44:56 elly: any more thought? 16:46:08 I don't think logarithms are going to help you. What is the actual problem you are trying to solve, of which you believe this to be a subproblem? 16:46:17 nothing springs to mind at the moment 16:46:34 logarithms solve the "other problem" of finding out how many digits a number has in a given base, but this is the opposite of that 16:46:59 riastradh: number->string with infinite decimals precision! 16:47:16 Can you formulate that as a complete sentence? 16:47:18 riastradh: (goodness 61739144674461874936197364467/50000000000000000000000000000) => "1.23478289348923749872394728934" 16:47:21 Are you trying to implement NUMBER->STRING? 16:47:25 riastradh: what's the definition of goodness! 16:47:39 Well, what's the definition of 1.23478289348923749872394728934? 16:47:56 riastradh: 61739144674461874936197364467/50000000000000000000000000000 or #e1.23478289348923749872394728934 ! 16:48:02 presumably 1.23478289348923749872394728934 is 61739144674461874936197364467/50000000000000000000000000000 converted to an exact decimal 16:48:07 No, I'm looking for something more like 1*10^0 + 2*10^-1 + 3*10^-2 + 4*10^-3 + ... 16:48:08 yes exactly. 16:48:16 aha yeah. 16:48:24 i thought maybe there was some smart mathematical trick that could count decimals 16:48:26 because if there was 16:48:35 i could just multiply it by 10^the number of decimals 16:48:38 and insert the decimal dot myself 16:48:39 manually 16:48:45 after number->string 16:48:48 and get this done that way. 16:48:50 ooh, I know 16:48:54 What will (goodness 1/7) do? 16:48:54 real->decimal-string 16:48:57 yeah. 16:48:57 rudybot: (require math/flonum) 16:48:58 stamourv: your sandbox is ready 16:48:59 stamourv: Done. 16:49:04 rudybot: doc flulp 16:49:04 stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/math/flonum.html#(def._((lib._math%2Fflonum..rkt)._flulp)) 16:49:10 BW^-: ^ 16:49:10 > (real->decimal-string 1/7 50) 16:49:10 "0.14285714285714285714285714285714285714285714285714" 16:49:11 elly: you're talking Racket now right? 16:49:15 yeah 16:49:16 mhm 16:49:17 Is this what you're looking for. 16:49:24 s/./?/ 16:49:28 aha so that's Racket. 16:49:30 real->decimal-string takes how many digits to generate 16:49:35 now let's learn how to do this in Gambit. :)) 16:49:36 but it appears to do what you want 16:49:42 the problem is telling how many you want :P 16:50:03 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:50:36 elly: m 16:50:40 It sounds to me as though (a) BW^- is asking about exact rational or decimal arithmetic (limited-precision binary floating-point won't help much with that), and (b) BW^- wants to implement this, not just use a canned library routine. 16:50:45 elly: where's the docs for real->decimal-string did you say? 16:50:59 riastradh: for Gambit I know of no canned library routine! 16:51:04 for doing this 16:51:34 Is this a pedagogical exercise or do you want the quickest way to get decimal representations of rationals? 16:51:51 aha http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/generic-numbers.html#(def._((lib._racket/private/base..rkt)._real-~3edecimal-string)) 16:52:00 riastradh: i want performance! that's all 16:52:21 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #scheme 16:52:21 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 16:52:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 16:52:23 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:52:41 hey look how it's done in this Racket function, the docs say: "Before printing, n is converted to an exact number, multiplied by (expt 10 decimal-digits), rounded, and then divided again by (expt 10 decimal-digits). The result of this process is an exact number whose decimal representation has no more than decimal-digits digits after the decimal (and it is padded with trailing zeros if necessary)." 16:52:41 Well, performance is going to be hard to attain if your input is an arbitrary exact rational represented by a ratio. 16:52:51 i.e. they just do expt 10 internally anyhow 16:53:03 juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has joined #scheme 16:53:04 riastradh: what would provide a fair enough performance? 16:53:06 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 16:53:42 BW^-: I think Riastradh's point is that using exact rationals at all won't give you good performance. 16:54:06 And, well, if it wasn't his point, then I'll make that point. 16:54:57 aha 16:54:57 So, what is the problem you are trying to solve of which this business of decimals and rationals is a subproblem? 16:55:19 riastradh: well i just enjoy having big numbers of decimals represented with exactitude 16:55:26 (string->number "#ediiiiiiiigits") 16:55:30 parses them to rational 16:55:38 the rational format allows doing math with them with unlimited precision 16:55:38 What is your performance constraint? 16:55:43 none! 16:55:45 almost 16:55:48 How fast does it have to be? Why does it have to be fast? 16:55:51 i mean, it should be decent speed that's alöl 16:56:01 say 10^5 to 10^4 secs per operation 16:56:03 is allowed 16:56:05 10^5. 16:56:07 sooooooory 16:56:08 10^-5 16:56:18 so then just a number->string is needed to "close the circle"! 16:56:29 presuming the input number doesn't produce an unlimited number of decimalso f course 16:56:30 e.g. 1/3 16:56:31 OK, in that case, don't worry about performance until you observe a problem with performance or reasonably expect you will hit one based on experience. 16:57:00 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.16] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 16:58:05 yeah! 16:58:18 riastradh: so then the last Q is just, how to do number->string for this kind of numbers 16:58:26 preferably with a dynamic number of decimals 16:58:46 so ideally there'd be a typechecker for infinite number of decimals 16:59:59 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #scheme 17:03:09 Go digit by digit. How do you get 1 out of #e1.234? How do you get 2 out of #e1.234? 3? 4? 17:04:02 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 17:05:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:13:14 juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:17:37 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:19:22 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:22:18 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:30:16 aranhoide [~aranhoide@129.Red-83-59-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:07 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:23 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 17:36:03 -!- ogamita [~t@tru75-h02-31-38-72-69.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:36:57 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 17:37:17 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 17:37:57 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 17:41:12 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-29.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:43:40 riastradh: a modulo that supports rationals? 17:46:37 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 17:47:37 Well, you can use TRUNCATE. 17:47:41 rudybot: eval (truncate #e1.234) 17:47:42 Riastradh: your sandbox is ready 17:47:42 Riastradh: ; Value: 1 17:51:25 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 17:52:15 fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:429:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has joined #scheme 17:53:00 riastradh: right - that works! nice!!! 17:56:47 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:58:54 -!- aranhoide [~aranhoide@129.Red-83-59-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:59:03 riastradh: awesome solution - it works! 17:59:47 riastradh: the next-decimal extraction algorithmt his way becomes: (eq? # 0) (* ## 10) (truncate #) (- ## #) 17:59:53 to be repeated til the first one returns #f. 18:00:17 and it's all started by (floor #) (- ## #) , to get the integer part of the number. 18:02:01 Don't use EQ?; use = for numbers. 18:02:23 You probably want to use TRUNCATE, not FLOOR. 18:02:24 riastradh: since it's integer, in Gambit eq? works - it'll do this at optimum speed 18:02:31 Unless you are going to use an unusual notation for negative numbers. 18:02:33 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.18.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:02:38 riastradh: ah right. 18:02:44 what reason do you see for truncate rather than floor? 18:02:44 Don't do that! It is an accident that EQ? works and the performance does not matter. 18:02:48 Use = to make your intent clearer. 18:03:31 gtg. 18:03:41 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@71.175.107.141] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:03:48 Do you want -1.23 to denote -1*10^0 + -2*10^-1 + -3*10^-2, i.e. -(1*10^0 + 2*10^-1 + 3*10^-2), or do you want it to denote -1*10^0 + 2*10^-1 + 3*10^-2? 18:04:11 The first option is what most people mean and what you will get by using TRUNCATE in the obvious way. The second would be rather unusual but would be what you get by using FLOOR in the obvious way. 18:07:16 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #scheme 18:07:43 -!- round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has quit [Client Quit] 18:08:09 riastradh: ah right, smart. 18:08:16 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:49 juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:11:33 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #scheme 18:11:33 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 18:11:33 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 18:11:49 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 18:13:16 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 18:15:33 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:17:17 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:18:05 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:19:00 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:19:21 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD90597.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:19:47 taylanub [tub@p4FD923B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:20:11 BW^- [~Miranda@81-233-163-166-no84.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:11 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@81-233-163-166-no84.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:20:11 BW^- [~Miranda@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has joined #scheme 18:20:18 riastradh: there would be no good way to know if the number of decimals is infinite, right? 18:21:00 BW^: Well, take the least larger powers of 2 and 5 18:21:16 michaelraskin: ..and? 18:21:19 Larger than denominator 18:21:41 If their product is not divisible by denominator, you get an infinite decimal 18:21:59 michaelraskin: how would this look in Scheme code? 18:22:37 Just two loops to square pow2 and pow5 until they are larger than denom? 18:23:46 michaelraskin: hm. why does this work? =) 18:24:45 Finite decimal means that 10^k * p/q is integer 18:24:47 Right? 18:34:10 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@2001:62a:4:429:a64e:31ff:fece:6b5c] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:34:29 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:38:46 piniga [d8da860c@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.216.218.134.12] has joined #scheme 18:51:05 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 18:52:03 -!- BW^- [~Miranda@unaffiliated/bw-/x-2460362] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! 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I just wanted to know, why do people keep saying Common lisp has "baggage", "cruft" and all. What are some specific things? No flame-bait, just curious, since I could easily switch to learning scheme first at this point. 21:10:35 CL tries to build a large set of things into the base spec; Scheme tries to be as small and minimal a base and instead provide mechanisms by which users can build their own things 21:11:09 For example, base Scheme has no efficient associative data structure 21:11:21 (i.e. what langauges might call a hash, hashtable, assoc. array, etc..) 21:11:45 I know about the libraries and legacy function naming, but are there any _inherent_ defects? Also, I know scheme lacks some stuff that can be built easily using the language itself. 21:11:50 Like the types you mentioned. 21:12:15 There are inherent differences. For example, the single-namespace that Scheme has as compared the multiple in CL 21:12:37 Neither is particularly "better" than the other; just that fans of one or the other tend to upplay their advantages and the disadvanttages of the other 21:13:23 Oh okay, so if I learn common lisp first (or scheme) could I easily learn the other later? 21:13:30 definitely 21:13:39 Their similarities are much bigger than their differences, certainly 21:13:59 adityarajbhatt: unhygienic macros 21:14:17 LeoNerd: also, R6RS certainly has a built-in associative data structure. :) 21:14:40 Really? 21:14:45 There are inherent defects: Common Lisp's symbols and packages, its broken model of evaluation phases (particularly EVAL-WHEN), and generally its lack of reproducible program semantics. 21:14:50 As in: I'm not counting assoc/assv/assq 21:14:59 LeoNerd: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-lib/r6rs-lib-Z-H-14.html#node_idx_1166 21:15:18 Oh.. hah. well, that's R6 21:15:31 R6RS is like The Matrix Reloaded. It *fingers in ears* Does Not Exist La La La La 21:16:18 francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has joined #scheme 21:17:16 Hi, does anyone like to contribute a scheme code to this task I have written in rosetta code: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Machine_code ? 21:25:37 What's the intended purpose and audience of that, francogrex? 21:31:00 francogrex: I was wondering how to do that. Thank You. 21:32:25 fountain-head [~user@c-1d2de555.026-3-73746f10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 21:34:19 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 21:42:18 -!- tarkus [~hello@109.230.140.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:44:09 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:44:38 tarkus [~hello@109.230.140.12] has joined #scheme 21:45:11 Riastradh: audience is any programmer really interested in learning and contributing 21:46:08 dkordic: that's why the tasks there push someone to research and understand better their favourite language and how to use it better... 21:46:26 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:52:47 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-ksqhumftguwrspjs] has joined #scheme 21:55:05 -!- francogrex [~user@109.128.82.138] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:59:42 -!- tarkus [~hello@109.230.140.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:07:47 liqu0rice 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closed the connection] 04:40:41 ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.204.31.237] has joined #scheme 04:41:15 -!- ohama [ohama@cicolina.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:42:32 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.204.31.237] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:42:39 lewis1711 [827b670b@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.130.123.103.11] has joined #scheme 04:44:39 http://pastie.org/8637891 is there any way with syntax rules to signify "last element of f ..." ? hopefully it's clear what I'm trying to do here 04:44:46 juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 04:46:37 ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.204.31.237] has joined #scheme 04:46:42 ok I was trying to figure that out for about an hour, and minutes after coming here it clicked. last line should be "[(>> x f ... h) (h (>> x f ...))]))". thanks everyone, good work ;) 04:47:36 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:49:33 -!- juxovec 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I'm following the Berkeley lectures, using stk-explorin 06:02:02 it doesn't like 'blah 06:02:07 it only likes '(blah) 06:02:26 any idea why? i think it's also responsible for this error that i'm getting 06:02:35 2 (apply string-append (map (lambda (arg) (if (word? arg) (word->string ar\ 06:02:35 g) (whoops "Invalid argument to WORD: " arg))) x)) 06:05:44 -!- defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:14:54 defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:59 savior [~savior@c-107-4-29-43.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:22:05 -!- defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Quit: giving up on this server] 06:22:50 defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 06:23:13 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 06:32:31 -!- rudybot [~luser@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:34:13 rudybot 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has joined #scheme 16:26:30 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:27:29 -!- ezio [~ezio@unaffiliated/ezio] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:31:45 aranhoide [~aranhoide@129.Red-83-59-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:33:51 frx [~a@93-141-67-193.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 16:42:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:42:13 -!- b4284 [~b4283@36-238-226-56.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ] 16:43:34 ezio [~ezio@nexus-4.wireless.uwo.ca] has joined #scheme 16:43:34 -!- ezio [~ezio@nexus-4.wireless.uwo.ca] has quit [Changing host] 16:43:34 ezio [~ezio@unaffiliated/ezio] has joined #scheme 16:48:04 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:48:19 what does it mean that a macro can "capture a variable"? 16:48:38 i like the simple define-macro system for macros but i guess that is only for simple stuff? 16:48:49 does it have the danger of "capturing variables"? 16:53:02 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@89.202.203.51] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 16:53:49 yes 16:56:03 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:57:18 ski: can i still just use define-macro if i know and love it as long as i'm careful?...the most complex macro i need is stuff to implement python language stuff...for loops, while loops, etc. 16:59:48 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:00:10 you probably can still use `define-macro', but it's typically not recommended 17:00:49 often a `define-macro'-style system isn't compatible with a hygienic macro system in an implementation (though it can be) 17:00:56 theseb : you could try looking at some of , e.g. 17:02:17 for simple stuff, you could try the `syntax-rules' hygienic macro system -- however, it's based (only) on a simple pattern-matching and template-filling language, you can't use arbitrary Scheme code inside of it 17:03:25 for more complex macros, one alternative is `syntax-case' (with which you *do* write the macro body in regular Scheme) 17:03:48 ski: i wrote my own scheme like language interpreter...define-macro was nice because macros then just swap macro names with lambda functions w/o an initial eval 17:04:00 ski: can't get more cleaner than that i don't think 17:04:24 hygiene has the disadvantage of being harder to implement, yes 17:04:27 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@89.202.203.51] has joined #scheme 17:04:51 (but we tend to think it's worth the while) 17:05:00 http://i.imgur.com/3yhwL.jpg 17:05:14 kind of apropos :-) 17:06:09 DerGuteMoritz: well...my impression is that define-macro *does* work ...it is just that there are no "guard rails" to keep you from falling off a cliff :) 17:06:28 DerGuteMoritz: so as long as i "drive" carefully i think i'll be ok 17:06:36 nicdev [~user@kilimanjaro.rafpepa.com] has joined #scheme 17:07:07 as long as you have total control and awareness over who/waht uses your macros, it can work, yeah 17:07:13 *what 17:07:26 has anyone worked through "Lisp in Small Pieces" with Racket and willing to share their opinion of the experience 17:07:53 i am not an expert schemer/lisper and just want to use the exercise as a learning experience 17:07:55 -!- ezio [~ezio@unaffiliated/ezio] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:08:44 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:10:02 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 17:11:37 "you have the same sorts of problems with dynamic scoping. ... Code breaks unexpectedly just as it would with dynamic scoping. This is exactly the same sort of problem. Now, you could solve it by using unnecessarily verbose identifiers, which gets to be a pain. Hygiene already provides you with the solution, though: [lexical/static scoping for macros]" (from the page mentioned above) 17:12:11 DerGuteMoritz: thanks...that makes sense... 17:12:55 DerGuteMoritz, ski: i'm curious....you scheme gurus...are you fortunate enough to get paid to use scheme in your work or do you just mess around w/ it for fun? 17:14:44 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@69.219.77.188.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:14:49 I'm not really a guru but I do use it at work, yeah 17:15:18 another way to state it : one problem with unhygienic macros is that a macro can inadvertently capture an identifier in scope at the macro call site. you can fix this by using `gensym', at least for ordinary value (and function ?) identifiers 17:15:23 DerGuteMoritz: what kind of work? 17:16:11 DerGuteMoritz is being humble. People call it the macroboy on #chicken, besides another nickname that may hurt his reputation on #scheme. 17:16:30 heh 17:16:40 another problem with unhygienic macros is that a macro now can't capture the reference to an identifier in scope at the macro *definition* (but not at the macro call site) -- afaik, this problem can't be fixed in `define-macro'-like systems 17:16:40 vraid: currently mobile 17:16:57 scheme for mobile? that's cool 17:17:00 ski: yeah that one is much worse actually! 17:17:05 or are you doing tool development in scheme? 17:17:27 vraid: yep, we cross-compile a common backend library written in scheme to ios and android 17:17:30 his IRC nick is actually a typo, the #t one is DerGuruMoritz 17:17:42 DerGuteMoritz: why was your boss cool enough to use Scheme? i always wonder how pointy haired bosses avoid getting sucked into the allure of Java and hiring Java (& PHP) monkeys 17:18:58 theseb: I guess he just trusted me enough or something :-) 17:20:56 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Quit: leaving] 17:21:08 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.118.101] has joined #scheme 17:22:56 -!- tarkus_ [~hello@109.230.140.12] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:23:51 tarkus [~hello@109.230.140.12] has joined #scheme 17:24:23 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #scheme 17:25:52 DerGuteMoritz, ski: won't this avoid variable capture in macros?.....what if you wrote your macro only using odd variable names a program would never use...like sdfk223__2f3xx 17:26:59 That doesn't help your macro's expansion to refer to the name CAR. 17:27:48 (let ((bus 'volkswagen) (car 'toyota)) ...) 17:28:56 `Don't do that!', you say. OK, but then you have to document a list of every name your macro's expansion might have a reference to -- that becomes part of the macro's API, its contract. Now you can't change the macro without possibly breaking users, because if you make it refer to any new names its contract changes. 17:29:17 Same with dynamic scope. 17:30:47 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34:35 ThatOtherPerson [~ThatOther@unaffiliated/thatotherpersony] has joined #scheme 17:37:09 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:37:25 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.16] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 17:37:53 arthurmaciel [~user@177.148.141.100] has joined #scheme 17:38:50 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:41:20 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:45:25 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:51:50 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:56:36 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:58:26 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 18:00:19 -!- vraid [d91bbc5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.27.188.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:04:43 -!- SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:06:46 -!- metasyntax [~tvenable@proxy5.med-web.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:06:51 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:02 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 18:10:32 jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:32 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has quit [Changing host] 18:10:32 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 18:10:41 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:10:46 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 18:11:01 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:12:01 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:12:24 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 18:19:16 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD923B0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:19:44 jxv [~jxv@76-219-78-35.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:49 taylanub [tub@p4FD90E44.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:26:44 Saeren_ [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:51 -!- ctindall [~ctindall@billipede.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:27:11 ctindall [~ctindall@billipede.net] has joined #scheme 18:27:57 -!- zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:28:14 zbigniew [~zb@3e8.org] has joined #scheme 18:28:30 -!- Saeren [~saeren@mail.skepsi.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:29:59 SHODAN [~shozan@fsf/member/shodan] has joined #scheme 18:31:18 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 18:35:41 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 18:37:46 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:47:49 -!- karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:48:05 karswell [~user@87.113.62.57] has joined #scheme 18:52:23 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 19:00:47 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:01:26 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 19:02:19 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 19:04:06 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@89.202.203.51] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:15:56 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:16:47 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 19:26:51 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:27:07 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:28:40 ezio [~ezio@nexus-4.wireless.uwo.ca] has joined #scheme 19:28:40 -!- ezio [~ezio@nexus-4.wireless.uwo.ca] has quit [Changing host] 19:28:40 ezio [~ezio@unaffiliated/ezio] has joined #scheme 19:30:55 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-28.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:31:47 -!- tarkus [~hello@109.230.140.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:34:37 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.18.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]