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ZZZzzz] 12:58:20 -!- zos [~user@miron02.elmundo.es] has left #scheme 13:02:23 pumpkin360 [~main@aged205.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 13:03:50 samth_ [~samth@129-79-241-204.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 13:04:33 Hi. I implemented AVL trees in scheme, but somehow they seem to work slower than sorted list set implementation. They aren't so long as a C implementation of the same, but still it is ~150 lines of code, if someone would have time I would be gratefull for telling what am I doing wrong that they are so slow. https://github.com/knight-erraunt/AVL 13:05:40 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:05:57 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #scheme 13:08:12 pumpkin360: it doesn't look like a bad implementation; any speed problems would be caused by excess consing and/or failure of your scheme implementation to inline things that should be inlined 13:08:20 what scheme are you using? 13:08:34 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af43ee2.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:58 well, set.scm will always cons 13:09:13 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has quit [Client Quit] 13:09:22 because of the arguments 13:09:28 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43e11.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 13:09:35 tried in on guile probably 13:09:37 tylergoza [~tylergoza@72.29.34.246] has joined #scheme 13:09:44 change to (define (dispatch op . rest) ...) to not cons "op" 13:09:46 which guile? 13:09:51 gambit didn't recognize "(load ..)| 13:09:53 1.8 or 2.x? 13:10:03 *"(load ..)" 13:10:04 2.x 13:10:31 and it compiled the files i guess 13:10:58 probably not 13:11:03 guile doesn't inline toplevel functions, unfortunately; that could be one of the things 13:11:34 you can use ,profile to get some info about what's taking up time 13:11:57 why should I change the (dispatch . rest) to (dispatch op . rest) (despite that it would look nicer) 13:12:17 ? 13:12:23 because a rest arg causes a list to be consed 13:12:49 (define (foo . bar) ...) (foo 1 2 3) ;; causes a 3-element list to be consed when you call foo 13:13:28 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af43ee2.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:13:37 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43ef4.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 13:13:48 (define (foo a . bar) ...) (foo 1 2 3) ;; causes a 2-element list to be consed 13:14:46 but these small constants make my O(nlgn) implementation slower that O(n^2) ? :/ 13:14:57 *than 13:15:01 shouldn't be the case 13:15:27 send a note to guile-user with the test cases if you want more feedback 13:15:57 Are you sure that's the time complexity of the program ? (Did you test with largely different input sizes ?) 13:16:40 (Just making sure.) 13:17:37 taylanub: tested only on ready a 8 puzzle progarm and seemed much slower. Well, if everything seems right with the code I will check for the correctness and what consumes the time (I know, should have checked the correctness earlier) 13:18:00 let's do the wrong thing fast 13:18:27 taylanub: just wanted to make sure I don't use some function which is in diffrent time complexity than I thought 13:18:45 ijp: looked correct on small cases 13:19:15 but by *small* I mean like really small - 5 elements or so 13:19:52 wingo: thanks for the advice 13:20:10 catdog123 [~catdog123@c1fw224.constantcontact.com] has joined #scheme 13:20:54 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 13:24:19 LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af43f83.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 13:24:55 -!- samth_ is now known as samth 13:25:00 -!- samth [~samth@129-79-241-204.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit [Changing host] 13:25:00 samth [~samth@racket/samth] has joined #scheme 13:25:23 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af43f83.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:25:51 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 13:26:38 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joined #scheme 06:31:33 -!- adu [~alt@pool-173-66-15-105.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: adu] 06:34:25 -!- microcode [~microcode@unaffiliated/microcolonel] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:35:09 microcode [~microcode@bas1-toronto04-1176175596.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 06:46:55 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:53:00 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:53:16 rishi_ [~textual@1.23.33.157] has joined #scheme 06:54:06 I'm wondering what the benefit of non-lazy evaluation is for an interpreter 06:55:19 That is, applicative order vs normal order evaluation 06:55:37 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:57:31 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 07:05:30 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:06:39 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:01 snowylike2 [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 07:07:18 -!- snowylike [~sn@91-67-170-78-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:07:30 remib [~remi@16-85.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #scheme 07:09:00 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:13:07 -!- remib [~remi@16-85.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Quit: leaving] 07:13:08 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 07:13:39 ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 07:15:49 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 07:19:41 -!- weie_ [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 07:20:29 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 07:21:07 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:21:50 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:41 add^_ [~user@m37-3-55-160.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 07:27:42 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 07:29:23 alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #scheme 07:30:47 oleo [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has joined #scheme 07:36:37 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:39:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 07:46:04 jewel [~jewel@105-236-146-135.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:48:35 ogamita [~t@77.104.4.54] has joined #scheme 07:55:40 rishi_: Predictable behavior. 07:56:19 rishi_: BTW normal-order is not exactly the same as lazy; you can see the original Scheme report (or was it the first revision?) for an explanation of why pure normal order is impractical. 07:59:38 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 08:03:17 jlongster 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ZZZzzz] 08:31:56 hashcat [~chatzilla@1-172-250-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 08:58:26 Oejet [~Oejet@unaffiliated/oejet] has joined #scheme 08:58:42 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:14:04 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #scheme 09:17:24 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 09:20:22 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 09:20:22 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Client Quit] 09:20:44 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 09:22:36 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:29:08 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 09:30:49 kuribas [~user@d54C430B0.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 09:32:22 agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 09:32:38 -!- bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:33:27 ijp [~user@host81-155-242-94.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 09:33:30 -!- ics [~ianclarks@ool-18bf6d86.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:34:57 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:41:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 09:50:45 Hi. There is an fmap that takes a tree and produces a tree of the same shape given a function f: number -> number. There is differentiation that takes a tree and produces a tree of the same shape given a function f: tree -> number. Compare the overall structure of fmap and dd here http://pastebin.com/uRrFpYGh Arent these two somehow related? I have a feeling of re-inventing a wheel here. 09:53:27 bondar [~bondar@197.156.132.62] has joined #scheme 09:58:18 -!- oleo [5098faa7@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.152.250.167] has quit [] 09:59:02 -!- hashcat [~chatzilla@1-172-250-47.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-7.1450hg.fc19 [XULRunner 23.0.1/20130902133717]] 10:05:58 well, dd, can't be a map, because your in second case elements have more context than just themselves 10:06:15 but I haven't the foggiest what this code is supposed to do 10:07:02 why is differentiation relevant? 10:09:27 it could be a fold on this tree type 10:10:54 your usual list fold takes a function and a value (or a nullary function) 10:11:29 since your tree structure also has a third case, you'll a third function 10:12:45 (define (fold nil-f pair-f value-f tree) (cond ((null? tree) nil-f) ((pair? tree) (pair-f (car tree) (cdr tree))) (else (value-f tree)))) 10:13:39 but it won't save you much typing 10:15:53 and of course, a map can be expressed as a fold too 10:16:09 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:16:34 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:18:55 -!- LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 10:21:48 pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has joined #scheme 10:22:01 this appeared first in numerical differentiation. (ddd f x) differentiates the function f: tree -> number with respect to every tree element. The resulting derivatives are naturally structured as a tree of the same shape. I seem to accept that not every function tree -> tree is an (f)map. 10:22:45 one obvious example is the function that rebalances a binary tree 10:23:15 Ok, tree -> tree preserving the shape. 10:23:19 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 10:23:57 But in this case the similarity is so strong that I am afraid I am missing some little detail to see the connection. 10:24:16 -!- cygo [~cyg@50.46.151.3] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:24:19 in a map, you don't have outside context of the tree 10:24:26 only the value itself 10:25:32 weie [~eie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has joined #scheme 10:25:33 What would you call an operation Tree of numbers -> Tree of lambdas, where each lambda takes a number and returns a Tree with that number in the right position? 10:26:13 All trees of the same shape again 10:26:55 no idea 10:27:26 but I've told you that you can do it as a fold, and there is probably also a comonad connection somewhere 10:28:05 fold is too general. You can fold into a number, a string or another tree of arbitrary shape. This cannot be the operation. 10:28:51 Even if this isnt an (f)map, this is still Tree -> Tree with both trees of the same shape 10:30:07 comonad+fmap, (Tree -> Tree(Tree)) then Tree(Tree) -> Tree 10:33:01 comonads cover evaluation in context, here the context is an environment mapping positions to siblings 10:33:48 ski: ping? this is above my paygrade :P 10:33:54 ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 10:39:34 hmm,no, that wouldn't work 10:40:35 problem is it isn't really Tree->Tree(Tree) because you are doing it in the pair rather than at the value level 10:41:32 it might work if the nodes had values rather than the leaves 10:42:43 dont worry. Not every patter must have a name. 10:43:01 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-188.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:44:40 I'll code up what I was thinking of 10:46:32 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 11:11:31 ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 11:12:30 -!- ebzzry [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:14:35 -!- effy [~quassel@222.131.154.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15:34 hmm, no, it isn't turning out like I though 11:16:44 c'est la vie 11:31:28 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 11:32:36 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:33:48 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:33:55 bjz_ [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 11:44:47 LAMMJohnson [~ja@user-5af43575.broadband.tesco.net] has joined #scheme 11:45:13 ASau` [~user@p5797E702.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:49:07 -!- ASau [~user@p5797FD11.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 12:00:35 eff_ [~quassel@222.131.154.131] has joined #scheme 12:10:19 ebzzry__ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 12:11:02 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:12:39 -!- Tanami [~carnage@9ch.in] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16:36 defanor [~defanor@ppp91-77-165-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 12:18:59 -!- defanor_ [~defanor@ppp91-77-161-5.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:21:52 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-84-44-155-46.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:27:21 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:34:21 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39:00 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:41:47 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfc688.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:41:57 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bfcf55.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 12:46:45 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has joined #scheme 12:47:52 -!- agumonkey [~agu@147.158.70.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 12:49:26 samth [~samth@129-79-241-204.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 12:50:20 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:50:20 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 12:50:20 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 12:54:09 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 12:58:01 nycs [~nycs@rrcs-24-39-141-128.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:01:02 -!- `^_^v [~nycs@ip-64-32-224-203.nyc.megapath.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:13:39 davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has joined #scheme 13:17:31 Fare [~fare@cpe-69-203-115-132.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:21:17 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Are You here ? 15:20:12 partly :) 15:20:48 pnkfelix [~Adium@89.202.203.51] has joined #scheme 15:21:49 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #scheme 15:21:49 -!- tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:55 -!- LAMMJohn1on [~ja@user-5af43312.broadband.tesco.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:21:57 tylergoza [~tylergoza@user-24-96-98-239.knology.net] has joined #scheme 15:22:42 wingo: Just wanted to tell You, because You served me with lots of advice with debugging the AVL trees, I looked on some more examples of small trees and the were balanced wrong, it turned out to be the wrong side comparison operator when checking for balance :S. Not it seems to work prettey fast, and as a program based on it works quite correct I won't bother to test is separatlly :). Thanks one more time. 15:23:04 haha, glad it worked out :) 15:23:20 *wingo* recalls hours of debugging the last time i implemented self-balancing trees... 15:23:37 wingo: for a moment was scared that scheme is so slow... 15:23:48 wingo: luckily that isn't the case 15:24:23 still, you might find things that should be faster; do let us know if that is the case 15:24:25 happy hacking :) 15:26:06 ebzzry__ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has joined #scheme 15:26:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:26:30 -!- DeathByDoubleDip [~DeathByDo@108-75-113-253.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: DeathByDoubleDip] 15:27:15 -!- ebzzry_ [~ebzzry@112.203.247.67] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:27:22 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:23:55 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 06:23:55 06:23:55 -!- names: ccl-logbot fgudin purentity nmeum arbn3 pothos araujo 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[~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:34:28 -!- vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:40:37 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 00:42:35 -!- rins [~aaron@c-98-216-107-249.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:43:53 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 08:48:32 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 08:48:32 08:48:32 -!- names: ccl-logbot oleo add^_ alexei___ jewel Okasu githogori weie joneshf-laptop cdidd ASau` preflex ypyf` b4283 pothos zendeavor ohama tali713 kilimanjaro pygospa igotnolegs- jaimef taylanub shivani stephe ft bjz dsmith defanor ebzzry__ Kabaka arbscht Kruppe hiyosi blackwol` sttau evhan Natch cky Giomancer araujo youlysses xenophon vraid clog juanfra nmeum dpk eff__ leppie tizoc acieroid weinholt kryptiskt pchrist SHODAN gnomon paddymahoney SeySayux gaYak 08:48:32 -!- names: antoszka mlamari mario-goulart noam Reisen ashp cross asumu fadein jkraemer acarrico copumpkin tenq kbtr stamourv`` stamourv cmatei LeoNerd sethalves andrewsw karswell ivan\ zbigniew Saeren eMBee ineiros amoe arrdem sontek joneshf-work joast fizzie mmc shardz ggherdov purentity arbn3 vnz tsuyoshi SirDayBat noobboob gabot Razz danking cpach aeth robot-beethoven zenoli pjb brendyn turbofail tessier wilfredh hive-mind yosafbridge gazoombo em cibs micro` 08:48:32 -!- names: amgarching DerGuteMoritz waxysubs microcode serhart ozzloy Khisanth pcarrier ski blz37 wddd dsp_ finnrobi gluegadget jrslepak fikusz gf3 jyc rapacity offby1 copec hellome cruxeternus heath chrisirc ecraven rudybot aoh sharkbird epsylon Nshag twem2 z0d krig inarru muep dan64 certainty felipe jmnoz fds seantallen m4burns C-Keen klutometis rotty zol 08:48:32 -rothfuss.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp 08:56:44 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 09:01:19 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:29:33 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 09:34:25 porco [~porco@218.30.180.177] has joined #scheme 09:41:56 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 09:43:07 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 09:46:58 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 09:47:56 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:55:19 round-robin [~bubo@91.224.149.58] has joined #scheme 10:04:27 -!- eff__ is now known as effy 10:23:55 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD5675F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:29:59 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD5675F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:32:15 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:35:07 http://imgur.com/RkLJFVh (SFW) <== I propose this is how we should pronounce Scheme identifiers whose names end in a '?' character 10:37:00 preddy cat ? 10:37:21 Nope.. this is one of those rare pictures on the internet that is neither porn nor a cat 10:37:30 lol 10:40:51 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:44:16 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 10:44:21 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:44:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 10:58:03 -!- stephe [uid14127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sfcgajfydngmvqdc] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 10:58:42 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 11:01:27 -!- porco [~porco@218.30.180.177] has quit [Quit: Linkinus - http://linkinus.com] 11:03:41 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 11:11:07 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:14:04 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 11:20:52 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:25:31 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD5675F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:38:59 I usually pronounce the '?' as 'huh' 11:42:55 asumu: Correct pronunciation of ( °  °): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGlBwW7f5HA 11:45:14 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-99-207.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:53:20 gleag [~gleag@71.175.broadband2.iol.cz] has joined #scheme 12:05:55 vraaid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 12:08:19 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 12:08:27 -!- vraid [~vraid@c80-216-227-77.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:10:04 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 12:11:24 -!- ASau` is now known as 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[~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:32:49 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 14:35:11 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:35:41 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:54:42 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 14:57:21 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-26-83-142.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:01:08 -!- sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:02:55 cdidd [~cdidd@128-68-115-239.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:06:54 sttau [~sttau@unaffiliated/sttau] has joined #scheme 15:12:20 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 15:13:21 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:13:21 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:13:21 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:14:24 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Client Quit] 15:15:39 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:18:59 annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:18:59 -!- annodomini [~lambda@c-76-23-156-75.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 15:18:59 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:19:37 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 15:39:00 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:39:37 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 15:41:41 przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 15:44:06 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:49:38 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:14 asumu: I suppose Canadian schemers pronounce it "-eh?" 15:50:40 heh. 15:50:48 I wrote that _before_ clicking LeoNerd's link. 15:51:04 :) 15:51:13 Great minds &c. 15:58:53 juxovec [~juxovec@88.103.61.177] has joined #scheme 16:11:39 -!- przl [~przlrkt@p5B29811B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:12:08 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 16:13:42 przl [~przlrkt@p5DCA333F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:18:58 brianmwaters [1719d362@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.25.211.98] has joined #scheme 16:19:29 i just figured out that R5RS letrec = R6RS letrec* which is kind of insane 16:21:24 aaand plane is boarding, goodbye. 16:21:27 -!- brianmwaters [1719d362@gateway/web/freenode/ip.23.25.211.98] has quit [Client Quit] 16:27:01 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 16:39:10 -!- effy [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:41:53 eff_ [~quassel@123.118.174.72] has joined #scheme 16:48:40 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 17:08:47 tupi [~user@189.60.11.163] has 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ZZZzzz] 17:50:11 Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 17:53:01 jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:53:05 -!- jao [~jao@55.Red-79-148-157.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:53:05 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:55:21 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-50ddcc-79.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 18:00:09 hey hooooo ho ho ho hey 18:01:04 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:02:08 hey :) 18:02:55 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:09:12 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 18:14:10 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:27 -!- Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:38 Nshag [user@chl45-1-88-123-84-8.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:15:47 foeniks [~fevon@p5091F6AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:15:57 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:16:06 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f768fc5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 18:16:13 TheRealPygo [~Pygosceli@kiel-d9bf8352.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:26:54 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 18:27:39 -!- jcowan [~John@mail.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:29:33 -!- Nisstyre-laptop [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:34:07 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 18:36:22 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:38:47 Guest36090 [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 18:40:35 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 18:42:10 ajmartin [~chatzilla@209.129.244.250] has joined #scheme 18:44:07 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 18:48:02 I want to know whether it is a good habit to return (void) for mutating functions. Have a look here http://paste.lisp.org/display/139124 ... the method using tail-recursion accesses its parents and modifies if necessary, else it shouldn't return anything 18:49:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c1fw237.constantcontact.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:50:12 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c1fw237.constantcontact.com] has joined #scheme 18:54:01 ajmartin: They don't have to be functions, they could be special forms of mactos. I'm not sure, but I think that a sort-of common convention is that no mutator should return anything useful...? 18:56:35 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD56440.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:56:41 ajmartin: _mutating_ function could usefully return the new value. 18:57:04 ajmartin: in general, if some value can be usefully returned, do it. 18:57:47 pjb: So there is no convention saying that mutating functions shouldn't return value, right? 18:57:50 ajmartin: the only exception would be functions that are expected to be used as "commands" (in the REPL): they should avoid returning values whose textual representation is bing 18:57:54 s/bing/big./ 18:58:05 No such convention. 18:58:17 Just a higher probability ;-) 18:59:00 pjb: And what do you say about gleag comment about having them as macros OR rather if I have functions is it fine to return (void) 18:59:01 It's a question of style. In scheme set! returns void (undefined IIRC), while in CL, setf specifically returns the last value assigned. 18:59:20 Macros are only used to mutate a binding. 18:59:35 To mutate a structure, you can do it with a function. 18:59:50 set! is syntax (~= macro); vector-set! is a function. 19:00:19 So (inc! a) should be a macro. (vector-inc! v i) should be a function. 19:01:38 pjb: Ah! I see. BTW, I couldn't locate the source of functions like `vector-set!`. Tried doing `pp ` in mit-scheme but to no result ... wanted to see what does it actually return. 19:02:11 The source is probably in the implementation source tarball. 19:02:38 ajmartin: they're defined in the implementation, yes. 19:02:47 And in many implementations, it's going to be implemented as an uninspectable blob of C code. 19:02:57 They could be written in another language than scheme ;-) 19:03:39 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 19:03:39 pjb: Write. C may be 19:04:00 pjb: Written in C may be* 19:04:06 Possibly. 19:04:19 Some use a subset of scheme, kind of a kernel language. 19:04:28 Pseudo scheme is written in Common Lisp. 19:04:51 If you're lucky, you have an implementation written in scheme. 19:06:27 pjb: So it's o.k. to have (void)s from a function in scheme? 19:07:04 Nowadays, there are a number of scheme implementations written in java or javascript too. 19:07:11 Yes, it's ok. 19:07:45 If you can't find a meaningful result, or want to avoid printing long output in the REPL, definitely use (void). 19:08:14 pjb: Cool. 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has joined #scheme 23:53:38 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD56440.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:56:44 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:27 -!- Akashic_afk [~JackTheRi@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:17:54 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-50ddcc-79.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 00:32:19 pumpkin360 [~main@aghf222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 00:33:56 Hi. I am wondering how does lua compare to chibi (or some other similar schemes) as an extension language, would be grateful for any thoughts. 00:34:31 (for C language) 00:35:20 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 00:35:40 and you figured schemers were the best people to answer a question about scheme vs lua? 00:35:43 -!- samth [~samth@149.160.161.7] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:36:42 you should probably ask on #lua too so the biases cancel each other out :) 00:36:56 ijp: guess not, but if someone has some experience in lua here, he could tell me why scheme is better. Found a long discusion about guile vs lua 00:37:30 Just want to know how does the interaction with C language compare 00:37:30 well, I can wholeheartedly disrecommend guile-lua, since it's very broken 00:38:02 btw 00:38:08 nvm 00:42:29 ijp: extension language on top of extensional language ? :S 00:44:16 yes, the world is mad 00:44:37 doubly so when I'm involved 00:48:10 -!- zzing [~textual@wlan.cspc1.uwindsor.ca] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 00:55:26 um, i've thought that lua is not on top of scheme there, that it's just another language which is implemented for guile's vm 00:55:51 well, it compiles to tree-il, which roughly corresponds to scheme after macro expansion 00:56:33 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-87-79-106-187.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:57:33 germ13 [~germ13@cpe-75-84-12-100.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:11:24 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:12:24 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:12:59 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:16:21 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:25:16 jcowan [~John@173.13.139.236] has joined #scheme 01:29:51 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:37:31 -!- igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@71-219-154-191.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:40:11 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:42:05 -!- weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:43:53 -!- pumpkin360 [~main@aghf222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 01:44:53 igotnolegs- [~igotnoleg@65-100-196-201.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:45:01 weinholt [weinholt@debian/emeritus/weinholt] has joined #scheme 01:46:18 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:46:54 samth [~samth@c-98-223-233-69.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:49:31 -!- samth [~samth@c-98-223-233-69.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:02:57 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-23-26-6-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 02:05:13 -!- ijp [~user@host86-180-108-216.range86-180.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: tired] 02:05:22 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 02:34:43 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 02:35:06 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 02:48:34 -!- arrdem [~arrdem@dhcp-53-132.ece.utexas.edu] has left #scheme 02:54:19 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:55:08 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 03:02:03 zzing [~textual@198-91-210-150.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 03:06:31 -!- Guest36090 is now known as Kabaka 03:08:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:15:35 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 03:36:26 AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 03:43:58 I can't seem to do anything right with mit scheme. When I run in repl mode and I try something like (define (sum-of-squares x y) (+ (square x) (square y))) and then (sum-of-squares 4 2) I get unbound variable even though I defined square earlier and it works. When I C-x C-f create a new file with .scm as the ending and then try to execute some code it says "REPL needs response before evaluation will be 03:43:59 enabled". I looked at the manual and online can't seem to see any specific help for getting started. 03:51:15 can't help ya 03:52:03 any idea what I'm doing wrong? 03:52:06 nope 03:52:10 Works fine for me 03:52:14 haven't played with MIT scheme in years 03:52:26 at least in REPL mode 03:52:35 Are you on Windows? 03:52:42 yeah I'm on windows 03:52:48 Repl mode is M-x repl 03:52:50 right? 03:55:29 are you not using windows? 03:55:53 Make a copy of the shortcut and remove the "--edit" from it. That will start it as a command-line app 03:56:42 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 03:56:54 wow I think that fixed my problem 03:57:00 I now have the => on the prompt 03:57:24 to go back to Edwin, execute (edit) at the prompot 03:57:26 prompt, even 03:57:58 is the command to do that in the manual? 03:58:32 I have no idea, I don't use the manual much. 03:58:49 I have way too many Schemes, and MIT is not one I use personally. 03:59:20 I'm only using it because of the book sicp. 03:59:31 *jcowan* nods. 03:59:36 It is recommended. And computer programming manuals usually suck ass anyway so I can't blame you. 03:59:43 Thanks for the help. 03:59:43 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:00:45 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 04:05:47 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 04:06:31 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:06:31 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 04:10:26 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 04:16:04 l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has joined #scheme 04:16:32 -!- l_ [~l@84.233.246.170] has left #scheme 04:17:19 ericmathison [~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:43 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 04:43:49 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 04:51:57 ASau` [~user@p5797E9BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 04:55:40 -!- ASau [~user@p5797F426.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:04:47 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:09:34 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-159-183.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:12:12 peterhil [~peterhil@dsl-hkibrasgw3-50ddcc-79.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 05:20:30 -!- fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317373.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 05:25:49 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 05:30:32 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 05:31:27 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has joined #scheme 05:37:02 -!- jcowan [~John@173.13.139.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:44:22 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47:16 -!- bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:58:41 -!- zzing [~textual@198-91-210-150.cpe.distributel.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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15:48:00 e.g. (some-macro a b c) -> ( (lambda (u v c) u) a b c) -> a -> eval(a) ??? 15:51:23 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@theo1.theochem.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:56:04 no 15:56:34 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 15:57:18 (some-macro a b c) is more like ,(some-procedure `a `b `c) 15:58:31 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:00:59 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:01:06 racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:05:44 ski: ok....so i only need to add quotes to be correct?...e.g. (some-macro a b c) -> ( (lambda (u v c) u) 'a 'b 'c) -> a -> eval(a) ??? 16:07:18 -!- AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:07:54 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE000e582ae076-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:08:06 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE000e582ae076-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:10:52 rudybot: eval (define (my-let-proc bindings . body) `((lambda ,(map car bindings) . ,body) . ,(map cdr bindings))) 16:10:52 ski: Done. 16:11:00 AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 16:11:46 rudybot: eval (print `(* 2 ,(my-let-proc `((a 3) (b 5)) `(+ a (* 10 b))))) 16:11:47 ski: ; stdout: "(* 2 ((lambda (a b) (+ a (* 10 b))) (3) (5)))" 16:11:57 ar, right 16:12:03 rudybot: eval (define (my-let-proc bindings . body) `((lambda ,(map car bindings) . ,body) . ,(map cadr bindings))) 16:12:03 ski: Done. 16:12:06 rudybot: eval (print `(* 2 ,(my-let-proc `((a 3) (b 5)) `(+ a (* 10 b))))) 16:12:06 ski: ; stdout: "(* 2 ((lambda (a b) (+ a (* 10 b))) 3 5))" 16:12:50 you can think of the above as roughly what happens with (* 2 (let ((a 3) (b 5)) (+ a (* 10 b)))) when `let' is a macro 16:15:01 then whole expression is treated as a sexp (nested list of lists, with symbols, numbers and such stuff as leaves), and the macro invocations becomes ordinary procedure calls that take the sexps that represent the macro operands, and the prodecure call should return a new sexp that represents the expanded code for the macro invocation, to be inserted at the place of the macro invocation 16:15:28 (so `eval' does not enter the picture) 16:18:41 kwmiebach_ [~kwmiebach@xdsl-213-196-217-211.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:19:44 zzing [~textual@wlan.cspc1.uwindsor.ca] has joined #scheme 16:22:40 -!- kwmiebach [~kwmiebach@xdsl-195-14-221-42.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:32:40 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 16:33:04 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 16:35:17 -!- zzing [~textual@wlan.cspc1.uwindsor.ca] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 16:41:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:46:26 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:49:55 -!- AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: AkashicLegend] 16:50:58 ski: but after the macro does the text replacements.....doesn't the new sexp need to be eval'd? 16:51:23 that's not a part of the macro-expansion process 16:51:27 ski: i saw a macro to define a when command.....when was basically converted to if 16:51:40 ski: so after when is changed to an if sexp you still need to eval the if sexp no? 16:51:59 ski: when you eval a macro you need to expand and eval both right? 16:53:09 only in the sense that you'd need it even if you had no macro invocation, if you wanted to evaluate the expression 16:54:12 yes 16:54:13 iow, the evaluation here has nothing to do with the macro-expansion 16:54:26 ski: right 16:54:26 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[~user@109.175.27.229] has left #scheme 23:47:01 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-184-128.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 23:47:10 Frob grovel full lexical mumble! 23:47:12 zzing [~textual@198-91-210-150.cpe.distributel.net] has joined #scheme 23:49:45 elly [~elly@atheme/member/elly] has joined #scheme 23:49:49 evening internetizens 23:50:17 Zorgleblotz! 23:51:25 hey Riastradh! are you familiar at all with kanren? 23:52:19 Only a tiny bit. 23:52:33 okay, rats 23:52:40 What are you wondering about it? 23:52:44 I am wondering about the construction of !- in http://kanren.cvs.sourceforge.net/kanren/kanren/mini/type-inference.scm 23:52:50 specifically why it's written as a fixed point 23:53:11 I dimly seem to recall that I didn't like it when I found it so I wrote my own version, but that was several years ago and I don't remember clearly now. 23:53:35 heh, okay :P 23:53:47 anyone else know? eli would be my usual suspect for something like thois 23:53:49 this, even 23:54:04 Well, Oleg is an obvious choice. 23:54:26 -!- armdale [~no@198-84-233-173.cpe.teksavvy.com] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:54:30 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 23:55:07 does he hang out here? 23:55:07 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:55:13 I would guess that it was written that way so it could be recursive but still built out of parts -- and the parts could be combined in separate ways. 23:55:20 No, I don't think I've ever seen him here. 23:55:46 Haven't corresponded with him in a while, actually. 23:56:16 ah, I see, so I could actually call (int-rel nothing) or something, and have a version of int-rel that doesn't need to recurse (or will recurse to some mock function if I need it to) 23:56:17 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:20 cute 23:56:40 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 23:58:23 -!- ijp [~user@host86-132-92-201.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:58:58 What are you doing with Kanren? 23:59:23 just staring at it longingly, right now 23:59:27 ijp [~user@host86-132-92-201.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 23:59:33 I saw a mention of it in the Soutei paper 00:00:16 Soutei? 00:00:34 http://okmij.org/ftp/papers/Soutei.pdf 00:00:36 have a look :) 00:03:29 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-156-22.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 00:14:50 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 00:18:44 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has left #scheme 00:19:04 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:19:51 adiii [~adityavit@c-50-136-206-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:24 -!- jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:30:14 jaimef [jaimef@dns.mauthesis.com] has joined #scheme 00:31:41 Planning to do something with Soutei, or just reading about it for fun? 00:31:49 reading for fun 00:39:01 jamestfarrington [~james@cpe-24-168-35-186.hvc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 00:43:19 -!- AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: AkashicLegend] 00:44:01 bjz [~brendanza@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 00:48:37 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Quit: Pozdrav] 00:48:49 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 00:49:37 -!- jamestfarrington [~james@cpe-24-168-35-186.hvc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 00:57:18 -!- scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:51 scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:32 j3pl [~Adium@38.102.133.106] has joined #scheme 01:02:20 AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:03:02 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD90CA6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:04:06 -!- scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:04:35 scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #scheme 01:04:48 elly: I used Kanren in production once; we were mapping gene expression to chemotherapy and wanted to do a little inference in cases of missing data, where possible. 01:05:06 It was a fun little project; what was difficult, though, was serializing our knowledge base. 01:05:21 *gnomon* peeks in 01:05:26 That's where things like e.g. datomic and cascalog are superior, I think. 01:05:46 Kanren is not designed to scale... 01:05:57 Riastradh: I agree; it's a toy, basically. 01:06:17 Our implementation might be characterised as Kanren-abuse. 01:06:35 Hmm. A logic databuse? 01:06:38 acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has joined #scheme 01:06:39 Heh 01:07:22 Ahoy! 01:07:28 Hi. 01:07:28 avast! 01:07:50 rudybot: stand and deliver! your money or your parens. 01:07:52 ijp: ""In our view if someone wants to offer a service in which things are blocked - for example the Church of England might want to deliver Christian-friendly broadband - then they should be allowed to do that. It is no different from the walled gardens we used to have," he said." 01:08:26 Riastradh, it is a treat to see you here, sir! How goes it? 01:09:38 It goes adverbially. 01:10:08 Splendid, splendid. 01:11:16 -!- scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:11:32 Riastradh, are you hacking on anything particularly fun these days? 01:11:46 scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has joined #scheme 01:13:19 Graphics drivers for NetBSD at the moment. Porting Linux's, anyway. Tempted to rip a bunch of stuff out and rewrite it, but I'm afraid that will take more time than I have. 01:13:53 Wait, what? Really? I'm a little surprised! Drivers for which hardware, if I may be nosy? 01:14:44 Just Intel at the moment. Might work on ATI and NVIDIA later. 01:21:06 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@c-67-180-16-120.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:24:45 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:26:57 What's new and exciting in the world? 01:27:50 Well, Syria, for one thing. 01:29:01 But on a more personal level, two biggish things: 1- there's been a national shakeup in my field of employement which will likely result in my being kicked out of a job either around November 20th or January 1st; b- I got betrothed a couple of weeks back. Huzzah! 01:29:14 Putin wrote a nice editorial about that in the New York Times. 01:29:33 I mean about Syria, not about your national shakeup or your betrothment, about which, condolences and congratulations, respectively! 01:31:04 Thank you kindly! 01:31:42 I haven't yet read Putin's venture into essay-writing. 01:31:54 -!- jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 01:31:59 It's quite articulate and lucid. 01:33:12 jrapdx [~jra@c-98-246-145-216.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:33:56 I'll enqueue it. 01:34:18 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 01:35:17 Worth reading, even if it is mostly stating what ought to be the obvious. 'Course, the audience is the biggest trigger-happy warmongering nation... 01:35:43 meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:37:38 -!- meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:38:30 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:40 Honestly, I could get used to nations hashing out their conflicts as rational editorials in independent publications. 01:38:47 -!- Agent-P [~fk5oxid3@ce1.net.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:38:50 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:52 meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:39:56 Riastradh, oh, there's one more piece of news! 01:41:14 I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but my better half is a professional singer. She was on the US tour of Les Misérables between January and a few weeks ago (and that was a _long_ time for her to be gone); she's in tech rehearsals right now for the Toronto production of the show. It opens two weekends hence. 01:41:58 Golly! Sounds...miserable, and fun, if that is conceivable. 01:43:04 It is both, in many ways; but it's also truly wonderful that she gets to work in her field, at her professional level, and yet also come home at night to the fur-beast. 01:43:11 And also to me, I suppose. But mostly the fur-beast. 01:43:23 The rumbling fur-beast? 01:44:07 The very same. 01:45:05 Riastradh: in trc testing, what would be the best way to parameterize a set of test cases, so you could use different implementations of the functions being tested? 01:47:15 That's a good question. I suppose there isn't really a good way to do that at the moment, because it works syntactically. 01:47:57 The idea was that you should be able to grep for test cases, and type `M-x run-test', and that should work reliably -- hence the syntactic nature of it. 01:53:21 -!- scmaccal [~user@bb-216-195-184-157.gwi.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:53:27 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 01:54:20 I would probably just use a little copypasta: (define-test foo.frobnitz () (foo frobnitz)) (define-test foo.garglemumph () (foo garglemumph)) (define (foo implementation) ...algorithm using some function implemented by IMPLEMENTATION...) 01:55:21 -!- j3pl [~Adium@38.102.133.106] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:55:40 right, so there is no problem with returning a (test-case ...) form from a function 01:55:56 that'll probably do just fine 01:56:14 (eh, define-test-case) 01:56:55 Well, you could do that too, but it would break the properties I described. 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ecraven joneshf-work tali713 tessier karswell finnrobi gluegadget serhart cibs brendyn noobboob SirDayBat tsuyoshi ggherdov Saeren ashp ohama githogori_ vnz fds copec sontek seantallen asumu jkraemer Razz micro` DerGuteMoritz jrslepak gabot stamourv` stamourv`` sethalves m4burns pchrist amoe tizoc ineiros ski dsp_ robot-beethoven cpach githogori weinholt Reisen 03:20:15 -!- names: mario-goulart Nshag `^_^v pjb hiyosi aking hive-mind stephe kilimanjaro shivani ft blackwol` evhan cky xenophon clog dpk leppie acieroid gaYak cross fadein kbtr LeoNerd zbigniew eMBee joast fizzie arbn3 danking aeth wilfredh yosafbridge em waxysubs microcode ozzloy Khisanth pcarrier gf3 jyc rapacity offby1 hellome cruxeternus heath rudybot sharkbird epsylon twem2 krig zol klutometis jmnoz felipe certainty inarru muep 03:20:15 -pratchett.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] channel trolls and no channel staff around to help? please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp 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joined #scheme 01:17:30 joquer [b30f72bf@gateway/web/freenode/ip.179.15.114.191] has joined #scheme 01:17:31 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:17:40 hi 01:17:56 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:24 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:19:39 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:45 hey ho 01:19:50 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:13 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:41 żis there a community in Spanish? 01:20:43 -!- meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:20:57 -!- arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:21:01 Not that we know of. 01:21:12 I want to compile .scm files 01:21:24 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:21:40 meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:22:09 how I can to do that? 01:22:20 I use Mit Scheme 01:23:23 xwl__ [user@nat/nokia/x-eqfhanqgvwlwxlnb] has joined #scheme 01:24:46 I installed guile for testing 01:27:11 but it generates three files .bin .com and another 01:30:09 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:35:01 You mean, compile to stand-alone executables? Guile can't do that 01:35:09 Gambit and Chicken can 01:42:03 CADD [~CADD@12.227.104.109] has joined #scheme 01:43:50 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@209.99.209.15] has left #scheme 01:44:32 jcowan thanks! 01:51:55 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD6351A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:55:38 -!- AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@CPE18593398c726-CM18593398c723.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Quit: AkashicLegend] 01:59:11 jcowan: I'm reading about scheme implementation but I don't know what is better, can you assist me to decide? 01:59:18 *implementations 02:00:22 I think in guile and chicken 02:03:07 but I also read about racket and plt scheme 02:05:26 Racket is the new name for what was formerly called PLT Scheme. 02:06:05 in the next version, they're going to do a Prince and just use a weird symbol for a name 02:06:29 Riastradh: yes thanks. 02:07:30 Guile is sponsored by FSF 02:08:47 well 02:09:38 I don't know which one 02:10:02 MIT Scheme doesn't generate executables that your operating system knows how to execute; rather, MIT Scheme knows how to load them when you call LOAD. 02:10:37 If you want to execute something on Unix, you might use a shell script wrapper: #!/bin/sh / exec mit-scheme --eval '(begin (load "foo") (%exit 0))' 02:11:09 ok 02:12:49 do you give a recommendation on deployments? 02:13:11 Guile or Chicken or another 02:14:30 or two of them, a interpreter and a compiler 02:15:34 If performance is essential to you, the Chicken and Gambit compilers are very fast ahead-of-time compilers 02:16:56 ok 02:16:58 and what to test scripts before compiling? 02:17:55 to compile I'll use Chicken 02:18:51 and as interpreter I'll uninstall MIT Scheme and I'll install Guile by FSF 02:19:19 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 02:19:44 Chicken comes with an interpreter: it's slow, but it's fully compatible with the compiler. 02:19:55 ah! 02:19:59 great! 02:20:03 Scheme is not so much a language as a family of languages. 02:20:53 -!- racycle [~racycle@75-25-129-128.lightspeed.sjcpca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:22:02 jcowan: thanks, you are very patient and very friendly 02:22:28 Riastrandh: thanks again! 02:22:56 Riastradh 02:33:09 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:36:36 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 02:53:12 Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 03:09:18 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:10:03 preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 03:28:08 protagoras [~his_shado@64.124.65.162] has joined #scheme 03:28:32 -!- protagoras is now known as Guest15458 03:28:39 sharkbir1 [~dingdong@sharkbird.com] has joined #scheme 03:28:54 epsylon` [~epsylon@2a00:dcc0:eda:98:216:3cff:fea1:ce4] has joined #scheme 03:29:13 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:29:13 -!- joast 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18:41:59 pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:11 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:39 ehaliewicz [~user@50-0-51-11.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 18:49:29 -!- Kabaka [~Kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:58:13 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:00:38 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:01:05 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 19:13:32 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:22:49 tufty [~simon@AGrenoble-552-1-287-249.w92-129.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 19:23:00 Hello 19:25:19 hello tufty 19:25:52 *tufty* is having a possible platform-specific issue with chez 19:26:41 Whats the possible issue? 19:27:00 Freenode is supposed to be about free software, which Chez isn't, but what's the issue? 19:27:07 having massive problems getting chez (petite, actually) to load srfis on OSX 19:27:25 ah, yeah, forgot that. sorry 19:27:36 Which version? 19:27:49 I *suspect* it's an issue with colons, which are traditionally a path separator on Mac 19:28:01 petite 8.4 19:28:10 OSX 10.8.5 19:31:34 tufty: Whats a snippet that will reproduce it? 19:31:55 tufty: aaron hsu was working on getting that added, but I don't know if he got them in 19:31:58 Actually, scratch that last comment. Appears to be not considering the colon in the srfi name to be equivalent to the "traditional" %3a 19:32:21 So, assuming you have an srfi hierarchy 19:32:57 which is why he had that renamed srfi set on his gophersite 19:33:05 > petite --libdirs . 19:33:19 (import (srfi :1)) 19:33:50 rudybot: seen arcfide 19:33:50 ijp: arcfide was seen joining in #scheme one week ago, and then arcfide was seen quitting one week ago, saying "Read error: Connection reset by peer" 19:33:53 Exception: library (srfi :1) not found 19:33:53 Type (debug) to enter the debugger. 19:34:04 tufty: Did you see ijp's comment 19:34:21 tufty: I see refrences to that on their gopher site 19:34:37 ah, right 19:34:45 *tufty* goes off to have a look 19:35:11 -!- nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:37:15 Ah. buggeration. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me, then 19:37:38 Have you considered using a free software Scheme instead, such as Racket or MIT Scheme? 19:37:53 I do, normally. 19:38:12 What's the occasion for Chez, then? 19:38:13 However, using a piece of software that is, for the moment, chez-specific 19:38:27 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@72.12.75.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:39:05 sarkar's nanopass compiler framework 19:39:20 Considered porting it to another Scheme? 19:39:38 Yeah. I've also considered hard drugs :) 19:39:56 There's probably not *that* much work involved 19:40:12 but it's some really gnarly macrology 19:42:08 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:24 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 19:42:26 about 5k lines of gnarly macrology, in fact 19:42:45 Macrology? Written by a competent, licensed macrologist, or not? 19:43:04 Certainly competent. Not seen his license 19:43:08 :) 19:43:22 Where's the code? 19:43:45 https://github.com/akeep/nanopass-framework 19:44:02 Some work's gone on to make it work with ikarus, but I don;'t know where that's at at the moment 19:44:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-190-69.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:45:15 ikarus lives on (arguably) as vicare 19:47:08 what makes the macrology gnarly? 19:47:26 chez extensions? 19:47:50 yeah, far as I can work out, it ties into the chez annotations in a few places 19:49:08 I'll admit I didn't get much further into fixing it than "try loading it into another scheme, eeeagh!" 19:49:23 Although I understand the codebase somewhat more now 19:50:37 pnkfelix [~Adium@88.170.201.21] has joined #scheme 19:54:07 looks like they've started moving the implementation specific bits out to a specific library, but many of the imports still refer to (chezscheme) directly 19:54:13 yeah 19:54:26 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 19:55:57 j3pl [~Adium@70-36-157-90.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 19:57:39 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:57:58 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:16 meekrabr6r [~meekrabr6@cpe-065-190-035-046.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:02:43 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 20:03:32 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@88.170.201.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:07:34 -!- Ripp__ [~textual@reccev-wism-wlan-189-125.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has quit [] 20:13:25 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20:15:52 Hrm. Looks like I'll have to live without srfis for the moment if I want to advance without getting bogged in yet another mire 20:15:58 thanks, guys. 20:16:00 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD913E4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:16:33 taylanub [tub@p4FD90E66.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:17:10 Ripp__ [~textual@reccev-wism-wlan-189-125.AirBears.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:21:28 -!- r2q2 [~user@acad29169.wireless.uic.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:25:00 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:35 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:24 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:26:39 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net] has joined #scheme 20:26:42 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 20:30:10 -!- oleo 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connection] 00:47:55 -!- j3pl [~Adium@70-36-157-90.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:49:41 choas [~lars@pD9FCD99C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:51:56 SrPx [b19f2820@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.159.40.32] has joined #scheme 00:52:37 What are specifically the points in R6RS that are generally unliked? Does this include hash tables inclusion? How did R7RS change that? 00:52:43 -!- choas_ [~lars@pD9FCDD40.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:57:04 good luck getting an answer, I never do 00:59:18 SrPx: the main argument against R6RS is its complexity 00:59:23 the pressure is to implement all of it 00:59:34 and there's a lot in there, if you're used to implementing other scheme standards 00:59:43 r7rs has r7rs-small 00:59:48 lol 00:59:55 and then r7rs-big which is bigger than r6rs 01:00:18 I can see that annoying people who were used to early schemes 01:00:45 could you rewrite that sentence? I'm not sure which of the possible meanings you were trying to encode 01:01:03 I think I get it 01:01:04 microcode: most people don't even implement all the r5rs, why should they matter? 01:01:07 I mean I can see a very large standard annoying people used to the simplicity/elegance of early scheme 01:01:21 not to say it isn't still elegant 01:01:25 right 01:01:30 I mean 01:01:34 it's still pretty small 01:01:48 especially considering the functionality in that package 01:01:48 yeah, just relatively larger 01:02:29 Oh, I see. Interesting 01:02:39 That makes perfect sense 01:03:00 I think people overstate the case for the r5rs 01:03:05 What is so hard to implement about it, anyway? 01:03:16 There's a lot of stuff in the R6RS that was designed for the standard and never actually implemented or used. For example, the library versioning scheme. Some parts are just broken in design, such as the approach to Unicode. 01:03:31 Riastradh: the versioning thing is very true 01:03:38 I know of maybe two people that used it 01:03:51 BTW, sort of on topic, I'm taking this first year CS course (mostly for the credit and to get the prereq) and the prof is using Haskell, which is okay I guess, but I see students having trouble with the syntax >_< 01:04:03 and I can't help thinking Scheme would've been SO much better pedagogically. 01:04:27 The R5RS is missing loads of important stuff, but not much of it is actually broken. 01:04:35 it's underspecified, not broken 01:06:52 For the R5RS, the term `report' was accurate; for the R6RS, the term `report' was just silly. 01:07:10 I hope you feel the same way about r7rs 01:07:23 well 01:07:25 it's a title 01:07:36 neither represented scheme as she exists 01:07:43 we should really have a report, and then a rigorous standard. 01:08:06 I haven't been paying much attention to the R7RS process. 01:08:11 neither inconsistent to the other, but one more suitable for introductory understanding. 01:08:28 Riastradh: I've been watching it crystalize on the mailinglist 01:08:47 Mostly I've been urging jcowan that you have to have a real, working implementation and real, working applications of everything that you want to standardize; any other standardization is a waste of time. 01:09:14 and of course, you're welcome to join in still I think 01:09:21 Riastradh: not much hope that is there 01:09:46 (But `real, working implementation' does not mean `proof of concept reference implementation'.) 01:09:50 jcowan is an interesting case 01:09:56 right 01:10:01 chibi-scheme is actually usable 01:10:09 I actually do use it rather 01:10:30 I get lumped in with the "big standard" group because I defend the r6rs, but he's really the "biggest standard" guy I've seen 01:11:07 it'd be nice to have updated subsets 01:11:17 my position, for the record, is not that we should have a big standard library, but that what library there is should be fully specified and fully required 01:11:20 I'm glad foof actually deals with real code, even if I don't always agree with the way he does things. 01:11:32 where people who are happy with other versions of the report in terms of functionality can just understand the differences in semantics 01:11:39 no selection box standard 01:12:00 which is why jcowan and me will never agree 01:12:05 right 01:12:12 I would love for there to be a base implementation requirement 01:12:15 unintentional rhyming 01:12:43 which would offer enough hooks to support a portable standard library 01:13:03 I believe you mean `which is why jcowan and I will never agrie', ijp. 01:13:08 and people could override implementation of various functions for performance or internal reasons 01:13:51 that way, we could have a silly-big standard library, and there would be no pressure to reimplement all of it correctly on your own 01:14:47 r7rs-large is also redundant if you believe in the srfi process (which is usual position among pro-r5rs people) 01:15:14 Riastradh: I don't get it, sorry 01:15:29 I was fixing your grammer and updating the rhyme to match. 01:15:41 it'd be great to implement an entire standard library with compatible SRFIs 01:16:01 and just define some large set of SRFIs which would fill out the features expected of a compliant system 01:16:08 of course, that would take some work 01:16:25 it's unclear what falls in SRFI and what is different in a standard right now it seems 01:16:50 .oO("grammar"? tsk tsk) 01:17:34 I'll crush your thought bubble with my kilogrammer, offby1! 01:17:45 hmm 01:17:59 Riastradh: you're in boston, right? did you join in any of the recent festivities? icpf? racketcon? gnu 30th? 01:18:01 Maybe I should put my money where my mouth is 01:18:07 and actually implement a practical scheme system 01:18:16 j3pl [~Adium@70-36-157-90.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 01:18:21 do something more difficult. implement a useful portalbe scheme library 01:18:27 well 01:18:28 No, ijp, I'm not in Boston. I missed it all. 01:18:35 that's the idea, ijp 01:18:39 *offby1* dint see no Riastradh at no RacketCon 01:19:04 but I mean to say that a scheme library that has to account frequently for details of specific systems can be cumbersome 01:19:11 no kidding 01:19:30 I would prefer to define a semantic subset for implementation that would be simple enough to adapt to 01:19:37 then build a good library on top of that 01:19:41 okay that's easy enough 01:19:50 with strong formal definitions 01:20:00 no IO. no callcc. no macros. no exceptions. no ... 01:20:01 Instead, to celebrate the 30th anniversary of GNU and the new focus on security and privacy, I found a way this morning to crash gpg, and probably with a bit more work trigger remote code execution, by feeding it a specially crafted PGP message. 01:20:04 that will be able to run without modification on compliant underlying systems 01:20:40 Riastradh: that's quite impressive 01:20:43 microcode, may I suggest that instead of writing libraries, you write applications, and then -- after you have real, working application code -- carve out the common parts of those applications as libraries? 01:20:43 ijp: yeah, basically at the moment it would make a mockery library 01:21:20 Riastradh: I have some applications, and I know some utilities from them would be generally useful 01:21:45 rudybot: what do you think of an odd-couple style show featuring riastradh and me hashing out a scheme standard? 01:21:47 ijp: well, it's a superhero movie featuring Seth Rogen, most famous for being in various Judd Apatow comedies 01:22:50 ijp, did you go to any of the Boston festivities? 01:23:08 no, since I was not in boston either 01:23:14 Riastradh: I guess the first order of business would be to create something to organize such utilities which is less formal than writing a SRFI, and low enough a barrier to entry that people will actually submit 01:23:26 hmm 01:23:40 a snippet archive I guess 01:23:44 does one of these exist yet? 01:24:03 only on a per-implementation basis 01:24:04 The gpg bug isn't really impressive; what impresses me more is that nobody else thought to do this in the history of gpg's existence, and it has always been vulnerable. 01:25:13 -!- j3pl [~Adium@70-36-157-90.static.sonic.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 01:25:51 I assume you've disclosed it to them? 01:27:26 Yes. It'll probably go public in a few days. Probably best not to publish an exploit packet that some loser might put on the key servers, until the software is fixed. 01:28:47 Oh god 01:29:02 rudybot: comfort microcode in his despair 01:29:03 ijp: The codification need not be, and the bytecode is essentially just a binary representation of the core forms of your program, soo..., that's not much more difficult than just having a microcode that accepts a binary form. In fact, why not have your interpreter only accept microcode? 01:29:16 not very comforting, alas 01:29:44 There is a nuclear power plant less than 25km away from where I live..... which is controlled by a PDP-11 01:29:58 actually, a few of them 01:30:08 yeah, the military still uses them for missiles as well 01:31:05 What's to worry about? The PDP-11 is a much simpler machine than current Intel monstrosities. The software on it is probably simpler and has fewer points of failure... 01:31:19 yes 01:31:29 but the hardware is bloody old 01:31:37 and in 2038 the timestamps will be broken 01:31:51 it's only a nuclear power plant, it doesn't need fancy hardware accelarate graphics 01:32:01 tuubow [~adityavit@c-50-136-206-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:15 what it doesn't need is burnt tubes 01:32:39 I obviously don't want a bigass intel machine doing it 01:32:50 but seriously... 01:33:09 oh, and it's not even just real PDP-11s anymore 01:33:17 -!- adiii [~adityavit@c-50-136-206-60.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:33:43 counterfeit chinese ones eh? 01:33:44 they have PDP-11 emulators running on SSCI-890s 01:34:51 -!- SrPx [b19f2820@gateway/web/freenode/ip.177.159.40.32] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:35:07 makes me wonder what kind of error correcting code they use on the memories 01:35:19 I mean 01:35:27 government programs are 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