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13:43:30 -!- names: joneshf-laptop entitativity rapacity1 em_ fgudin_ evhan gnomon cross ineiros leku offby1 rudybot seantallen Nisstyre fadein levi noam_ sad0ur pjb cajetanus lusory aking nitefli cibs Saeren mmc1 acieroid shardz ft felipe certainty LeoNerd Reiser rotty ski sethalves aoh githogori Razz_ StephenS samth_away epsylon` stamourv stamourv`` ecraven gabot acedia antono pchrist zbigniew finnrobi embee C-Keen blackwolf weie krig amgarching leppie tessier_ walter|r
13:43:30 -!- names: dsp_ jrslepak blz37 Triclops256|away gf3 Guest22326 tizoc xrq` mario-goulart Natch_r impaktor` danking m4burns muep_ jaimef yosafbridge` ohama tali713 numeral mutley89_ Khisanth eli aeth z0d asumu robot-beethoven weinholt Guest81153 SeySayux_ waxysubs cmatei taylanub cpach
13:43:30 -sendak.freenode.net:#scheme- [freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
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13:43:45 <ecraven> taylanub: well, in interactive use, nothing can be inferred. the compiler cannot know beforehand what parameters you will pass into any function (and in most Schemes you can call *any* function from the REPL)
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14:33:11 -!- names: epsylon` samth_away StephenS Razz_ githogori sethalves ski rotty Reiser certainty felipe Saeren mmc1 acieroid shardz ft blackwolf weie krig amgarching leppie tessier_ walter|r dsp_ jrslepak blz37 Triclops256|away gf3 Guest22326 tizoc xrq` mario-goulart impaktor` danking m4burns muep_ jaimef yosafbridge` ohama tali713 numeral mutley89_ Khisanth eli aeth z0d asumu robot-beethoven weinholt Guest81153 SeySayux_ waxysubs cmatei taylanub cpach cibs nitefli aking
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19:44:35 <taylanub> Whoa, I didn't know R3 and 4RS were available as such fancy HTML:  http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r3rs_8.html  http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r4rs_8.html
19:45:18 <taylanub> (These actually just became relevant on the mailing list. :P  My fixation on reading the old reports has been justified after all!)
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21:14:12 <taylanub> What does "delayed boxing of procedures" mean ?  http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2013-June/003606.html  ("Delayed boxing" is, if I got it right, e.g. automatic switching between fixnums and bignums, i.e. moving the actual value to the heap when it doesn't fit on the stack anymore; but why would such a thing be done for procedures ?)
21:14:12 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/m6g3akj
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21:16:28 <Riastradh> (let* ((x (mumble)) (f (lambda (...) ... x ...))) (foo) (bar) (if (baz? quux) (zot f) (mumble)) (if (frotz? mumph) (uhoh) (out-of-variables f]
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21:16:51 <Riastradh> You can defer consing a closure for f until you are sure (baz? quux) is true.
21:17:01 <Riastradh> You might defer it until (frotz? mumph) is true too.
21:17:06 <Riastradh> And you might cons a closure separately for each of those cases.
21:19:38 <taylanub> Thanks a lot, I was going mad not finding any information on this on the web. :)
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11:05:21 <madmuppet006> Im trying to write my own cond procedure http://pastebin.com/Bc3tY0es but I am getting an error in procdure #t wrong type to apply #t any ideas on what I am doing wrong?
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11:05:43 <taylanub> Cond cannot be a procedure, only a macro.
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11:07:04 <ecraven> could be a special form (but that's in a way the same as a macro)
11:07:14 <madmuppet006> hmm I havent learned macros could you explain why it has to be a macro?
11:07:30 <taylanub> (I was going under the assumption that it will be self-defined.)
11:07:59 <taylanub> Hrm, what Scheme introductions are recommended these days ?  SICP and HtDP are for programming in general ..
11:08:34 <ecraven> madmuppet006: if you call a function, for example (+ a b c), then a, b and c are evaluated before the function is called
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11:09:16 <ecraven> so (+ (* 1 2) (/ 1 2)) is evaluated by first evaluating (* 1 2) -> 2 and (/ 1 2) -> 1/2, then evaluating (+ 2 1/2) -> 3/2
11:09:38 <ecraven> for COND, this wouldn't work, you don't want to evaluate all the parameters, but only some
11:09:42 <ecraven> same problem with IF
11:10:11 <ecraven> thus neither IF nor COND can be plain functions
11:10:32 <ecraven> (did I explain this successfully?)
11:11:34 <madmuppet006> I have an if function must fail somewhere .. will have to look at it again .. thanks for the hands up .. I would prefer to use macros to find a solution as my goal is to write an interpreter later?
11:11:55 <madmuppet006> yeah the explanation is good thanks
11:13:27 <ecraven> in most implementations, IF is a special form. it doesn't work like normal functions, but only evaluates one or another of its parameters
11:13:33 <ecraven> now, about macros
11:14:26 <ecraven> a macro is a code transformation. using a macro, you can make (cond ((< n 0) 'negative) ((= n 0) 'zero) (else 'positive)) appear to the compiler as (if (< n 0) 'negative (if (= n 0) 'zero 'positive))
11:14:46 <ecraven> macros are not directly related to the evaluation of parameters, as they are expanded in an earlier phase
11:15:01 <ecraven> it might help to read one of the introductory texts :) see the topic
11:15:12 <taylanub> I wrote this minimalist Scheme/Lisp introduction some time in the past but it's probably only useful for a very limited set of people; still, maybe madmuppet006 is in that set:  http://sprunge.us/RVRP
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11:16:16 <madmuppet006> thanks guys for the help .. appreciate it
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11:18:50 <madmuppet006> I have worked my way through most of the little schemer and written a few other procedures .. I sort of get the basics of scheme but dunno any of the harder stuff
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11:19:33 <ecraven> madmuppet006: there's an entire chapter in SICP on writing your own interpreter
11:19:37 <ecraven> you might want to work through that
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11:21:27 <madmuppet006> ecraven: I hit the coin problem in sicp and it put me off reading further .. that problem didnt make any sense to me
11:22:04 <madmuppet006> will have to look again
11:22:08 <ecraven> you might just that problem :) i'm not sure about the other books in the topic, but probably they have chapters on interpreters as well
11:23:36 <ecraven> this one for example: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/examples.html#./examples:h7
11:25:34 <madmuppet006> thanks looks pretty interesting ..:)
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08:05:24 <robot-beethoven> i'm having trouble finding information that satisfies my curiosity concerning "Le Moyen Age et la Renaissance" (mentioned on the back cover of SICP)... does anyone know much about it?
08:08:04 <jewel> the middle ages and the renaissance? is it a book?
08:09:06 <robot-beethoven> i'm guessing so, but am having trouble finding information about it (probably because the book is in French, which I can't read yet).
08:10:01 <jewel> the title is also very generic
08:10:14 <jewel> imagine how many books there are about the middle ages and the renaissance
08:10:37 <jewel> maybe search for engraving
08:11:27 <jewel> something like this
08:11:28 <jewel> http://www.abebooks.com/Arts-Moyen-Age-lepoque-Renaissance-subsequent/6602286441/bd
08:11:28 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/msd79d4
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10:18:26 <pjb> minion: memo for robot-beethoven: perhaps it refers to http://www.amazon.com/Moyen-%C3%A0ge-Renaissance-Description-Lindustrie-Litt%C3%A9ratures/dp/1274494737
10:18:27 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/lmsfrno
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12:19:49 <stamourv`> Riastradh: Re "XML is like violence": ISTR that being Erik Naggum's.
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15:46:38 <jiamo> use scheme-comiple-region the plai-typed get error : #lang not enabled in the current contex with plai-typed installed and drracket can compiler .
15:47:41 <stamourv> jiamo: What are you trying to?
15:47:53 <stamourv> Also, could you post your code somewhere, maybe as a gist?
15:48:27 <stamourv> Quick thing to check: in the bottom left of DrRacket, what's the selected language?
15:48:52 <stamourv> I assume that, at the top of your file, you have a line like "#lang plai-typed". Is that correct?
15:48:59 <jiamo> yes
15:49:08 <jiamo> i just want not use drracket
15:49:19 <stamourv> That should be easy.
15:49:25 <jiamo> and run in emacs .use scheme-compiler-region
15:49:35 <stamourv> Ah, I see.
15:49:45 <stamourv> Does running `racket file.rkt' work?
15:50:17 <jiamo> wait . have a try .
15:50:21 <stamourv> As for `scheme-compiler-region', I'm not sure which package that would be from.
15:50:28 <stamourv> I recommend using Geiser with Racket.
15:50:58 <jiamo> yes it can
15:51:10 <stamourv> Good.
15:51:13 <stamourv> Geiser: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
15:51:31 <jiamo> quack ?
15:51:36 <jiamo> i just use it
15:51:58 <stamourv> Quack works great for some things, but I don't know how well it works for interactively running code.
15:52:18 <stamourv> My understanding is that Geiser has better Racket integration.
15:52:37 <stamourv> And so will probably work better for files in custom languages, like `plai-typed'.
15:54:04 <jiamo> In my understand , racket self can run it . and i already set scheme-program-name "racket" .  so racket here is just a language .
15:54:14 <jiamo> and plai-typed was too
15:54:31 <jiamo> the racket command not just as language .
15:54:34 <stamourv> The first "racket" here, I think is just the executable name.
15:55:18 <stamourv> My guess is that `scheme-compile-region' just sends the region to the REPL, or something, and #lang lines don't work at the REPL, only in modules.
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15:55:30 <jiamo> thank you i will see geiser
15:55:57 <stamourv> One thing you could try: instead of using the raw `racket' command, try using `racket -I plai-typed'.
15:56:09 <stamourv> That will launch a REPL in the `plai-typed' language.
15:56:28 <stamourv> And from there, you may be able to send parts of your program to the REPL.
15:56:33 <jiamo> racket some.ss can work fine .
15:56:46 <stamourv> But I highly recommend using modules instead of the REPL, especially for custom languages.
15:58:28 <jiamo> new to scheme just follow the "Programming Languages: Application and Interpretation" ,  not understand "using modules to instead of the REPL"
15:59:11 <stamourv> Roughly: put your code in files with #lang lines, and only use the REPL for quick experiments.
15:59:40 <stamourv> DrRacket makes this workflow very easy, so you may want to consider giving it a try.
16:00:04 *stamourv* is a big emacs fan, but uses DrRacket sometimes, especially for the tools.
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18:27:02 <ripplebit> guys how do i install scheme on linux?
18:27:54 <stamourv> Which distro?
18:28:03 <stamourv> On debian-likes, you can do: apt-get install racket
18:28:13 <stamourv> Or you can download the installer from racket-lang.org
18:29:07 <ripplebit> its ubuntu, is that debian-based?
18:29:12 <stamourv> Yep.
18:29:21 <stamourv> If you want a more recent version, there's a PPA for Racket.
18:29:22 <ripplebit> great, thanks
18:29:42 <stamourv> I'm not an ubuntu user, so I don't really know how PPAs work, but there are guides on the web.
18:29:43 <ripplebit> what is racket by the way? is it the scheme foundation?
18:30:00 <stamourv> Racket is a language in the Scheme family.
18:30:21 <stamourv> It's easy to pick up for beginners.
18:30:31 <stamourv> Comes with textbooks, an IDE, lots of libraries, etc.
18:30:53 <ripplebit> so it just extends scheme?
18:30:59 <stamourv> Basically, everything you need to get started, and lots of goodies to get work done once you're comfortable with the basics.
18:31:24 <stamourv> Extends it a lot, but keeps the good <stamourv> Geiser: http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/
18:31:24 <stamourv> <jiamo> quack ?
18:31:24 <stamourv> <jiamo> i just use it
18:31:24 <stamourv> <stamourv> Quack works great for some things, but I don't know how well it
18:31:27 <stamourv>            works for interactively running code.
18:31:30 <stamourv> <stamourv> My understanding is that Geiser has better Racket integration.
18:31:33 <stamourv>                                                                         [11:52]
18:31:38 <stamourv> <stamourv> And so will probably work better for files in custom languages,
18:31:39 <stamourv>            like `plai-typed'.
18:31:42 <stamourv> <jiamo> In my understand , racket self can run it . and i already set
18:31:45 <stamourv>         scheme-program-name "racket" .  so racket here is just a language .
18:31:49 <stamourv>                                                                         [11:54]
18:31:50 <stamourv> <jiamo> and plai-typed was too
18:31:54 <stamourv> <jiamo> the racket command not just as language .
18:31:57 <stamourv> <stamourv> The first "racket" here, I think is just the executable name.
18:32:00 <stamourv> <stamourv> My guess is that `scheme-compile-region' just sends the region to
18:32:04 <stamourv>            the REPL, or something, and #lang lines don't work at the REPL,
18:32:07 <stamourv>            only in modules.  [11:55]
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18:32:13 <stamourv>     #scheme
18:32:17 <stamourv> <jiamo> thank you i will see geiser
18:32:20 <stamourv> <stamourv> One thing you could try: instead of using the raw `racket' command,
18:32:20 <stamourv>            try using `racket -I plai-typed'.
18:32:26 <stamourv> <stamourv> That will launch a REPL in the `plai-typed' language.  [11:56]
18:32:26 <stamourv> <stamourv> And from there, you may be able to send parts of your program to
18:32:29 <stamourv>            the REPL.
18:32:32 <stamourv> <jiamo> racket some.ss can work fine .
18:32:35 <stamourv> <stamourv> But I highly recommend using modules instead of the REPL,
18:32:39 <stamourv>            especially for custom languages.
18:32:42 <stamourv> <jiamo> new to scheme just follow the "Programming Languages: Application and
18:32:45 <stamourv>         Interpretation" ,  not understand "using modules to instead of the
18:32:48 <stamourv>         REPL"  [11:58]
18:32:50 <stamourv> <stamourv> Roughly: put your code in files with #lang lines, and only use the
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18:32:54 <stamourv>            REPL for quick experiments.  [11:59]
18:32:57 <stamourv> <stamourv> DrRacket makes this workflow very easy, so you may want to consider
18:33:00 <stamourv>            giving it a try.
18:33:03 <stamourv> * stamourv is a big emacs fan, but uses DrRacket sometimes, especially for the
18:33:06 <stamourv>   tools.  [12:00]
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18:33:25 <carleastlund> stamourv, your paste button is going crazy :(
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18:33:48 <stamourv>     peer
18:33:49 <wrl> i think he inadvertently copied a bunch of back stuff from the channel and his client is pasting it all back in slowly
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18:34:10 <carleastlund> Yeah, that's a shame.
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18:34:54 <stamourv>     #scheme
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18:35:03 <stamourv> *** ericmathison (~ericmathi@172-15-249-133.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net)
18:35:05 <leppie> Ctrl - C maybe?
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18:35:24 <stamourv>                                                                         [12:55]
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18:35:34 <wrl> the ideal solution tbh would just be to kick him. would probably break whatever cycle his client is in
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18:36:10 <stamourv>     phunq, sandwich store loop, WHAT NO UNIVERSE  [13:33]
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18:36:22 <leppie> lol
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18:36:25 <ripplebit> stamourv: how do i install it once downloaded?
18:36:32 stamourv [~user@racket/stamourv] has joined #scheme
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18:37:30 <carleastlund> stamourv, you're fired from SchemeCorp for your copy/paste incompetence :p
18:37:40 <stamourv> carleastlund: Did it finally stop?
18:37:46 <stamourv> Had to disconnect.
18:37:49 <ripplebit> guys how do i install racket once downloaded?
18:37:51 <carleastlund> Yep.
18:37:55 <stamourv> Ok, good.
18:38:28 <stamourv> Was weird, on my end, looked like everything was sent all at once, so I kept talking, but that probably never got sent.
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18:38:47 <carleastlund> Yeah, we never saw that.
18:39:03 <stamourv> Hmm.
18:39:23 <stamourv> Sadly the channel logger looks down. I'd have liked to see the fireworks from outside.
18:39:45 <ripplebit> guys how do i install racket once downloaded?
18:39:58 <stamourv> ripplebit: Did you download the installer from the Racket webpage?
18:40:12 <ripplebit> i downloaded the .sh file
18:40:31 <stamourv> Run it in a shell.
18:41:17 <bananagram> what on earth
18:41:39 <bananagram> I thought someone needed me
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18:42:56 <stamourv> bananagram: Yeah, my bad. Emacs went berserk.
18:42:59 <ripplebit> stamourv: it says command not found. is there a command i need to run?
18:43:27 <stamourv> you can do: bash ./whatever.sh
18:43:30 <stamourv> That should work.
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18:51:30 <ripplebit> stamourv: which dir should i install it in? /usr/lib or /usr/bin/ or something else?
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18:52:43 <stamourv> ripplebit: The default is to to an in-place installation, where everything is in the racket directory. Makes it easier to install new versions.
18:53:10 <stamourv> If you do that, the script offers to add links to /usr (or elsewhere), which you may want.
18:53:17 <stamourv> s/links to/links in/
18:53:24 -!- banannagram is now known as bananagra
18:53:33 <ripplebit> stamourv: so it wont install in the dir where i downloaded it to by default?
18:53:38 -!- bananagra is now known as bananagram
18:54:11 <stamourv> ripplebit: It asks you where you want to install it. With an in-place install, that place is a single directory.
18:54:45 <stamourv> With a "unix-style" install, you provide a prefix, and it will put binaries in $PREFIX/bin, libraries in $PREFIX/lib, etc.
18:55:04 <stamourv> And also provide an uninstall script/
18:55:56 <ripplebit> stamourv: ah ok
18:56:18 <ripplebit> stamourv: got it working, cheers
18:56:43 <ripplebit> stamourv: do i download dracket seperately?
18:56:56 <stamourv> Nope, DrRacket should already be in there.
18:57:15 <stamourv> (assuming you didn't pick the racket-textual installer)
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18:58:40 <ripplebit> stamourv: do you contribute to racket?
18:59:08 <stamourv> I do.
19:00:24 <ripplebit> stamourv: awesome. I've just started reading SICP, which uses scheme. I know scheme is old, is there much use for it anymore?
19:01:06 <stamourv> Racket is used in multiple industries.
19:01:17 <stamourv> Do you know the video game: The Last of Us?
19:01:22 <stamourv> (recently released)
19:01:31 <stamourv> They used Racket a lot for its development.
19:02:06 <ripplebit> stamourv: yeah apparently it's amazing
19:02:11 <ripplebit> stamourv: wow didn't realize
19:02:57 <stamourv> People use it for websites, for robotics, for teaching, etc.
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19:03:04 <newtothis> stamourv, and not a word on wikipedia :/ did they use it for the usual scripting or something even more significant?
19:04:04 <stamourv> newtothis: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gmvrb/realm_of_racket_is_finally_out/
19:04:05 <rudybot> http://tinyurl.com/m7bqytx
19:04:24 <stamourv> That thread has some details from one of the developers.
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19:05:19 <newtothis> stamourv, thanks, cool :)
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20:39:25 <Razz|at_work> Guys, my brother Bob is participating in a photography contest, and here I am shamelessly trying to get him some votes :-P: http://canon.nrc.nl/Picture/view/9545 :-)
20:46:49 -!- Razz|at_work is now known as Razz
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21:53:17 <taylanub> Razz: That's more shameless than what you can shun off by humorously declaring yourself shameless, in my opinion.
21:55:25 <stamourv> (add1 taylanub)
21:55:30 <stamourv> rudybot: (add1 taylanub)
21:55:30 <rudybot> stamourv: error: <taylanub> I am not a number, I am a free man!
21:55:41 *stamourv* scratches head.
21:55:59 <Riastradh> So who is trapped in the Village here -- rudybot or taylanub?
21:56:51 <stamourv> rudybot: Are you trapped in the Village?
21:56:53 <rudybot> stamourv: "Police said a 40-year-old villager was also killed in Mahauli village in Muzaffarpur district, 85 km north of Patna in an incident related to human sacrifice. "A man came running with a spear, yelling "Jai Ma Durga" and slashed the head of the person sitting at a tea stall," said Akhileshwar Das, deputy superintendent of police."
21:57:12 <stamourv> Er.
21:57:18 <stamourv> I'll take that as a not.
21:57:35 <offby1> rudybot: have you taken your medicine today?
21:57:36 <rudybot> *offby1: i agree with whitequark frankly, altho we still have some good stuff left from the USSR: free medicine, free education (including scholarships for undergraduates)
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23:17:23 <jerryzhou> hi
23:17:29 <jerryzhou> i have a question
23:18:21 <jerryzhou> when i run-scheme in emacs it said no such file or directory racket
23:18:27 <jerryzhou> what should i do?
23:19:43 <offby1> install racket.
23:19:54 <offby1> or ...
23:20:07 <offby1> invoke run-scheme with a C-u prefix, like C-u run-scheme RET
23:20:13 <offby1> then type the name of a scheme program that you _do_ have
23:20:31 <ijp> check the exec-path?
23:20:38 *offby1* nods gravely
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07:32:59 -!- names: lusory_ Guest89360 aeth cky weie_ rudybot DeadZen_ asumu LeoNerd fds kvalle weinholt araujo microcode ozzloy tali713 ec_ gnomon noam_ tizoc snarkyboojum add^_ YoungFrog fadein SeySayux brianloveswords ecloud_ dpk metasyntax jyc sharkbird serhart Natch kilimanjaro stamourv StephenS githogori certainty jaimef sethalves gabot fgudin dsp_ kniu amoe tommylommykins clog copec ivan\ entitativity amgarching zbigniew gf3 danking muep_ waxysubs cpach
07:32:59 -!- names: Triclops256|away mario-goulart kryptiskt fizzie ggherdov simon rotty Razz|at_work jkraemer_ pchrist joast cross InvalidCo tessier Khisanth numeral kbtr stamourv` ve dan64 cibs acieroid SHODAN Saeren ft epsylon eli seantallen yosafbridge ski Reisen mmc m4burns nitefli ineiros evhan twem2 duncanm C-Keen mrowe wrl Blice finnrobi samth
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15:32:13 <theseb> newbie questions please.....1. Are the special forms...quote, atom, eq, cons *themselves* atoms?  I'd think they MUST be since EVERYTHING in lisp is supposedly an atom or list right?
15:32:46 <theseb> (Paul Graham wrote a tiny lisp where (atom special-form) returned false so i was confused
15:32:47 <theseb> )
15:33:03 <theseb> if not atom or list...what else are they?
15:33:48 <theseb> 2. What is the use of eval (implementation of lisp in lisp)? ...i know it is cool theoretically but is there some function in which it gives useful features?
15:33:48 <wbooze> symbols!
15:34:29 <theseb> wbooze: aha!....wait....you mean a variable? ok but variables=symbols and those are ATOMS no?
15:34:59 <theseb> 3. can 1st element of a list be something that evaluates to a function rather than being a function?
15:35:08 <Riastradh> The term `atom' doesn't mean much that matters.
15:35:11 <theseb> ....with regards to evaluating the list
15:35:33 <Riastradh> EVAL is for exactly what you observed.  For example, if you want to write a REPL, you use EVAL.  rudybot uses EVAL to implement its `eval' command:
15:35:36 <Riastradh> rudybot: eval (+ 1 2)
15:35:37 <rudybot> Riastradh: your sandbox is ready
15:35:37 <rudybot> Riastradh: ; Value: 3
15:35:38 <wbooze> no symbols is different
15:35:51 <theseb> Riastradh: i like the elegant claim that everything in lisp must be an atom or list.....in that sense atoms seem to be a catchall for everything non-list
15:35:56 <wbooze> most complex thing in lisp afaik....or so....
15:36:20 <Riastradh> The names of the special operators -- QUOTE, LAMBDA, &c. -- are symbols, but the special operators themselves are different and have no (standard) first-class realization as objects in Scheme.
15:36:48 <Riastradh> That claim is more a definition of an `atom' than a practical characteristic of Lisp.
15:36:57 <theseb> wbooze: ug...i'm not happy then....Paul Graham's paper violated his own claim..."Roots of Lisp" says "everything is an atom or list!!" then a few pages later he contradicts himself!?!?
15:37:11 <wbooze> i don't think they have first-class realization elsewhere too
15:37:25 <Riastradh> You can define `atom' that way if you like (and some people do) but that doesn't help you to solve any problems in the real world.
15:37:30 <wbooze> theseb: you confuse layers
15:37:54 *DerGuteMoritz* layers confusion
15:38:42 <theseb> wbooze: please elaborate..not sure what you mean
15:38:52 <theseb> sorry
15:39:09 <theseb> i'm a physicist by trade......programming is not my bread and butter :)
15:39:14 <wbooze> just read on the matter
15:39:32 <theseb> i did...Paul Graham said everything in lisp is an atom or list
15:39:37 <theseb> i even cited the paper
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15:39:56 <wbooze> it's my hobby, but i'm not that proficient to make any wrong/true claims here....
15:40:28 <DerGuteMoritz> on the surface layer this may be more or less the case
15:40:30 <wbooze> oh man
15:40:32 <Riastradh> theseb, I would guess that Paul Graham meant `every first-class object in Lisp is either an atom or a list'.  But you could broaden that, again as a definition of `atom'...
15:41:06 <Riastradh> theseb, but, as I said: there's no practical use for the term `atom' in Lisp.
15:41:12 <DerGuteMoritz> I wouldn't consider a vector an atom though, for example, and most languages calling themselves Lisps do have first-class vector representation
15:42:09 <DerGuteMoritz> so one would probably first have to have an understanding of what Lisp actually is ;-D
15:42:28 <DerGuteMoritz> or rather a definition
15:42:29 <theseb> Riastradh: thanks....sounds like you are saying it wouldn't hurt if for my own aesthetic desires I personally defined atom to include the special forms..thanks...i liked that
15:42:53 <DerGuteMoritz> forms are on a different layer from atoms and lists though
15:42:55 <Riastradh> You could also broaden `atom' to include ducks and chickens if you like.
15:43:12 <theseb> Riastradh: this is all just pet peeves
15:43:16 <theseb> i'm cool with that
15:44:06 <Riastradh> The point is that the concept never figures into programs of consequence, so it is not worth losing sleep over who calls what `atoms' in Lisp.
15:44:33 <theseb> Riastradh: true
15:45:48 <theseb> Riastradh: is a REPL the only example we can think of where evals are useful?
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15:47:09 <carleastlund> Dynamically loaded plugins are another useful case for eval.
15:47:21 <theseb> nice..thanks
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15:47:59 <carleastlund> Also, if you ever need to hog some resources quickly, without maintaining any pesky "security", eval to the rescue!  ;-)
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15:49:13 <theseb> people say Lisp Machines lost because of Moore's Law but why couldn't Moore's Law have worked for Lisp machines too?
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