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joined #scheme 18:20:58 lonstein [lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #scheme 18:24:42 snizzo [~quassel@host71-235-dynamic.30-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:25:51 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 18:30:55 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-4db5836c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: HG`] 18:34:51 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 18:36:38 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:44:08 untrusted [~user@stgt-5f71b9e0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:03 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 18:47:47 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:51:54 'We value preventing bugs far higher than we value foolish consistency. ' <-- now imagine Scheme was designed like that! /o\ 18:53:34 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:49 let's be buggy AND inconsistent 18:57:14 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 18:57:23 by the way, that is from the C# compiler team's headhancho 18:57:59 IOW, 'let's dumb down a language enough so dumb people can use it' ;p 18:58:13 choas [~lars@p4FDC544D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:16 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 19:00:28 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-198-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:00:38 lulz 19:00:51 a language for the 97% 19:01:22 instead of 'let's make a language simple enough so anybody can use it' :) 19:01:47 bytbox [~s@wireless-206-196-164-152.umd.edu] has joined #scheme 19:02:57 masm [~masm@bl16-198-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 19:03:37 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:04:22 -!- 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[Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:11:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-81.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:13:35 mister_m [~mattosaur@216-80-123-91.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 07:21:32 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@adsl-71-156-44-252.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21:57 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:24:38 -!- dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:26:32 dan64 [~dan64@c-71-206-193-42.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:27:12 Thank Zeus for "nethack on" in ~/.screenrc; the which, I'd wager, is absent in tmux. 07:27:40 -!- dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:46:50 fgudin [~fgudin@odin.sdf-eu.org] has joined #scheme 07:55:31 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:58:31 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 07:58:31 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 07:58:31 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:07:07 -!- mister_m [~mattosaur@216-80-123-91.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:07:21 Just discovered eshell, too: I'd been reuing the lack of a usable scsh for years when, all of a sudden, there's a shell that speaks s-expressions? 08:07:34 Jesus; what a week. 08:27:20 klutometis: there's also clash and clesh: http://clisp.org/clash.html https://github.com/Neronus/clesh 08:27:47 -!- shardz [~samuel@ilo.staticfree.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:28:14 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-kvcpozxdseqqsbdd] has joined #scheme 08:33:13 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:44:01 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-229-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:46:46 -!- bigfg [~b_fin_g@r186-48-247-53.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:49:08 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 08:51:40 yamanu [~yamanu@cpe-212-18-40-64.static.amis.net] has joined #scheme 08:55:40 klutometis: The name eshell reminds me of esh: http://www.serpentine.com/blog/2007/02/16/esh-the-fabulous-forgotten-scheme-implementation/ 08:55:41 http://tinyurl.com/7l5b57s 08:58:29 klutometis: John Rose heads the Da Vinci Machine/MLVM team at Sun (and now Oracle), who designed and implemented invokedynamic for Java 7. He has lots of awesome ideas about bringing continuations, tail calling, and all other kinds of neat stuff to Java. 09:01:31 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 09:05:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has joined #scheme 09:05:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has quit [Changing host] 09:05:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 09:09:45 klutometis: you mean ruing 09:18:35 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:18 hkBst: No, he meant rueing: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rueing 09:21:19 cky: hmm, alternative speellings: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ruing ? 09:22:20 http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=ruing&word2=rueing 09:32:13 hkBst: Sure. But looking at klutometis's spelling, which one is more similar? 09:47:23 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:10:55 -!- bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 10:11:02 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 10:11:52 snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 10:12:56 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:25:49 pumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 10:25:50 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:25:51 -!- pumpkin is now known as copumpkin 10:40:03 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 10:46:27 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 10:47:48 bwright [~bwright@c122-106-254-100.belrs3.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 10:56:38 -!- dous_ [~dous@210.24.42.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:58:56 rostayob [~rostayob@host86-137-13-33.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 11:06:27 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 11:25:40 -!- snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:35:36 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@host86-137-13-33.range86-137.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 11:35:41 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:44:31 -!- Lajla [~thr@ip51cc146b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 11:55:39 cky: I guess that depends on your change algebra and whether inversion is cheaper than deletion ;P 11:56:02 masm [~masm@bl16-198-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:12:22 gremmachook [u1735@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkigvkthxnasydmf] has joined #scheme 12:14:47 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 12:16:10 -!- gremmachook [u1735@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkigvkthxnasydmf] has left #scheme 12:16:11 hammbank 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#scheme 16:41:03 cky: They're both one edit distance away; but, yeah: rueing. 16:41:32 cky: Thanks for the links, by the way; never thought to look for a shell in lisp, for some reason. 16:41:45 Too bad scsh is moribund. 16:48:10 *nods* 16:48:25 *qu1j0t3* nods off 16:48:42 guys, why definitions in scheme return no value? 16:48:57 They don't. 16:49:01 -!- woonie2 [~woonie@s30028.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:49:02 definitions are not expressions. 16:49:08 R5 (at least) simply leaves unspecified what (define ...) returns 16:49:23 ok. fine. why are they are not expressions? 16:49:23 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-5.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 16:49:29 My implementation happens to yield the expression that was assigned, similar to C etc.. 16:50:40 LeoNerd: That's okay too. 16:50:54 see r5rs section 5 16:51:03 LeoNerd: Programs are not supposed to rely on the specific value returned by define, set!, etc. 16:51:23 Indeedy 16:51:37 Mine returns it purely as a quirk of implementation 16:51:54 Then you're all good. :-) 16:52:16 but why definitions arent expressions in r5rs? 16:52:34 for me (novice schemer) it looks as inconsistency 16:52:57 antono: In Scheme, most of the side-effecting operations (like define, set!, etc.) do not return any specific value. They're designed to be used in contexts where the return value is simply discarded. 16:53:04 Because they're not supposed to be used as expressions, only as side-effects 16:53:15 Most usually at the toplevel of the program 16:53:41 define is not a side-effecting operation except at the top level if the identifier is already bound 16:54:00 kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has joined #scheme 16:54:29 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 16:54:35 definitions are not expressions because they're about declaring bindings, not reducing to values. 16:54:42 wingo: guile 1.8 allows (define something define) 16:54:44 .. welll... hrmmm.. 16:54:52 why later versions do not? 16:54:54 It has a "side effect" in the casual English sense of the word 16:55:14 -!- hammbank [~hammbank@222.44.98.202] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:55:17 antono: It's not valid Scheme. But Guile before 2.0 treated macros as first-class objects, for some reason. 16:55:34 I'm finding it's easier to implement that way 16:55:42 why they cannot be first class objects? 16:56:16 i mean why they are not defined as first class objects in specs? 16:56:17 antono: Are you familiar with the general idea of an open specification? I.e. the idea that not every detail has to be pinned down by a specification? 16:56:17 antono: Because macro expansion happens at an earlier phase than actual "runtime". 16:56:36 cky: got it :) 16:56:46 R5 has nothing to say on the subject of whether a macro could be a firstclass value. It doesn't require it, it doesn't forbid it 16:57:16 LeoNerd: no. 16:57:21 snizzo_ [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has joined #scheme 16:57:39 (define (apply2 f x y) (f x y)) 16:57:45 (apply2 list 1 2) => (1 2) 16:57:59 (apply2 if #f 1) => syntax error. 16:58:06 it can't be the unspecified value. 16:58:16 Hmm? 16:59:12 *qu1j0t3* scratches head. 16:59:19 wingo: can you explain what you're explaining ;) 16:59:31 Yeah, I'm not sure I follow 16:59:35 if "if" were first class, (apply2 if #f 1) reduces to (if #f 1) which reduces to the unspecified value. 16:59:36 -!- snizzo [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:59:41 But if isn't a macro either 16:59:43 but, that is crazy. 16:59:44 It's a special form 16:59:54 I was talking about macros 17:00:17 (define-syntax my-if (syntax-rules () ((_ a b) (if a b)))) 17:00:25 same thing with (apply2 my-if #f 1). 17:00:35 I thin kyou're misinterpreting me 17:00:48 R5 doesn't forbid macros from having some first-class representational value 17:00:58 But neither does R5 require them to actually work if you pass them around as such :) 17:01:29 -!- bytbox [~s@wireless-206-196-164-172.umd.edu] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 17:01:38 E.g. in my implementation I could have (define (print-macro-name m) (display (macro-name m)) (newline)) (print-macro-name let) 17:01:49 And that could happen to work 17:02:49 i don't think that (print-macro-name let) is valid scheme 17:02:53 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 17:03:03 Hrmm 17:03:06 you could use some other form to get to some value associated with let 17:03:12 but you can't just name it like that. 17:04:08 Ah.. hrmmm 17:04:20 So macro names are special even not in first position? 17:05:09 tbh i'm not sure and would have to look a bit harder. 17:05:30 certainly in r6rs, yes. 17:05:58 and also certainly it's not scheme, inasmuch as it's not portable. 17:05:59 Ah.. I'm still working to R5 currently. 17:06:19 Ohquite... the nonportability of it was part of my point :) 17:06:39 R5 doesn't explicitly forbid it so it's possible for some implementation to work that way 17:06:51 Butyeah, perhaps R6 doesn't.. :/ 17:07:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 17:07:49 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 17:10:44 LeoNerd: R6RS supports identifier macros. 17:11:26 LeoNerd: For example, in Guile, there's this: (define-syntax *unspecified* (identifier-syntax (if #f #f))) 17:11:42 *LeoNerd* nodnod 17:11:44 That means anywhere there's *unspecified*, that actually gets expanded to (if #f #f). 17:11:50 Yeah... my only macros are procedural-shaped ones 17:12:32 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 17:12:33 Ohoh.. this reminds me... is [upcoming paste] sane? 17:13:26 http://pastie.org/3257635 <== am I understanding correctly what let-syntax is for? 17:13:39 I wanted a "private" macro to implement do with, that didn't leak out 17:15:30 LeoNerd: I tend to implement that using with-syntax (which is a syntax-case feature), but, it's worth seeing if your approach works (test it on a couple of major implementations first). 17:15:57 Well.. it only has to work on mine ;) 17:16:04 I'm more trying to work out if I understand the intention of let-syntax 17:16:11 'cause otherwise, I can't see what let-syntax could possibly be fore 17:16:13 for 17:16:41 Yes, but that's part of what testing with other implementations is for, so you can test your assumptions. By "you", I mean anybody who isn't a language lawyer. 17:17:04 -!- amoe_ is now known as amoe 17:17:05 Heh.. 17:17:16 So, can you explain with-syntax? I've not seen it 17:17:57 So, as I mentioned, with-syntax works with (and is implemented using) syntax-case. So let's explain syntax-case first. 17:18:24 First, it's important to understand that _any_ syntax-rules macro can be trivially converted to its equivalent syntax-case version. 17:18:38 In fact, syntax-rules is itself a syntax-case macro, for Scheme implementations that use syntax-case. 17:19:00 Hrmmm... 17:19:25 (Not all Scheme implementations use syntax-case. There are other ways to implement syntax-rules.) 17:19:51 Well I implement it as a primitive thing 17:20:02 Okay, in that case you won't have with-syntax. :-D 17:20:20 If you don't implement syntax-case, with-syntax isn't very useful. 17:20:25 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 17:20:43 But I'll explain it to you anyway. 17:20:54 Okay, so, let's look at a simple macro. 17:21:12 LET is my favourite example. Let's implement a simple LET macro (just ignore named LET for now, for simplicity). 17:21:36 -!- smunoz [~user@186.114.64.222] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:22:03 Syntax-rules version: (define-syntax let (syntax-rules () ((_ ((var val) ...) body ...) ((lambda (var ...) body ...) val ...)))) 17:22:51 Yah 17:22:55 Syntax-case version: (define-syntax let (lambda (stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_ ((var val) ...) body ...) #'((lambda (var ...) body ...) val ...))))) 17:23:18 Or, for implementations that support the define-syntax shorthand, you can simplify that to: 17:23:32 (define-syntax (let stx) (syntax-case stx () ((_ ((var val) ...) body ...) #'((lambda (var ...) body ...) val ...)))) 17:23:53 Hrmmm... Why the #' ? 17:24:03 Ah, now we get to the juicy part of what syntax-case is for! 17:24:17 And.. I've just noticed that inner lambda.. hmmmm 17:24:27 So, in syntax-rules, _everything_ in the right-hand-side appears in the expansion. 17:24:35 So, effectively, the whole right-hand-side has #' applied to it. 17:24:43 In syntax-case, you can be selective. 17:24:48 and btw. why scheme does not allow #! as comments (as implemented in guile). unix friendly comments instead #| 17:25:07 That way, syntax-case macros can have actual logic that governs what a form gets expanded into. 17:25:12 It's not simple substitution. :-) 17:25:27 I ignore the first line if it starts #! but only if it's the very first two bytes in the file 17:26:13 But what is #' ? I haven't see it before 17:26:25 #'x is shorthand for (syntax x). 17:26:40 There is also #` (quasisyntax) and #, (unsyntax). 17:27:10 Anything that you want to have appear in the macro-expanded output, you wrap in syntax. 17:27:18 Hmm 17:28:01 Anything you don't wrap in syntax is presumed to be part of the syntax transformer's logic. 17:28:19 Ah righty... so the transformer is actual real scheme code that runs early? 17:28:23 Yes. 17:28:25 *LeoNerd* is in mind of a BEGIN {} Perl block 17:28:31 :-D 17:28:59 djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 17:29:48 Hrmmm... syntax-case bearing a stunning resemblance to case 17:30:02 Right, but you're matching forms, not atoms. 17:30:09 Yah 17:30:13 Well, that's just a recursive match 17:30:22 .oO( also did I mention already, I hate the ... rules ! ) 17:30:37 Really? The ... stuff is actually very useful. :-) 17:30:41 Oh it's useful yes 17:30:45 I just dislike its exact syntax. 17:30:55 Do you have a better approach? 17:31:08 Anything else in Scheme you can do head-first, but ... requires you to look at the pattern token afterwards, and realise it's "...", so match this thing lots of times 17:31:49 It's like Kleene star! 17:31:51 :-P 17:32:09 (define-syntax let (syntax-rules () ((_ ((multi (var val))) (multi body)) ((lambda ((multi var)) (multi body)) (multi val))))) ; <== make 'multi' special 17:32:23 I just prefer headfirst things 17:32:26 Surely, multi is harder to visually see than .... 17:32:40 If you want it prefixed, I'd actually just use *** or something like that. 17:32:45 That way it'd stick out. 17:32:50 And it connotes Kleene star. 17:33:03 (define-syntax let (syntax-rules () ((_ (*** (var val))) *** body) ((lambda (*** var) *** body) *** val)))) ; that then 17:33:28 Right. 17:33:32 Admittedly it's a minor point, but still :) 17:34:45 ;-) 17:35:20 It's easy to write a syntax-case macro to transform that form into the more-standard form. 17:35:29 Hehe 17:35:34 So that you can write the majority of your macros in this new style if you wish. 17:35:35 Anway, you were explaining syntax-case and with-syntax? 17:36:02 Eh.. it just annoyed me in the implementation of my syntax-rules, as I have to lookahead to ->cdr->car to see if it's the "..." sym 17:36:39 So, the syntax-case usage is like this: (syntax-case obj literals clauses). (As opposed to (syntax-rules literals clauses).) 17:36:44 The obj is the thing that is getting matched. 17:37:03 Initially, at the outermost level, you're matching the syntax object your transformer is receiving. 17:37:21 However, you can match other things, like lists. 17:38:17 For example, you can do this: (syntax-case '(1 2 3 4) () ((_ _ _ x) #'x)) 17:38:34 That should return 4, of course. 17:38:45 Mhm 17:39:40 with-syntax is simply a syntax-case macro that is essentially like LET with pattern variables. 17:39:53 Hrmmm 17:40:02 But then how does that differ from let-syntax? 17:40:19 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbed29e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:40:30 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbedfc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:05 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 17:41:13 LET-SYNTAX binds lexical variables to syntax transformers. 17:41:33 WITH-SYNTAX does nothing of the sort. It binds pattern variables (not to be confused with lexical variables) to arbitrary expressions. 17:41:54 Oh.. I see 17:42:04 Yah,... that doesn't soudn like what I had in mind for this inner do helper 17:42:27 LeoNerd: Actually, implementing DO is easy with syntax-case and with-syntax. I even have an implementation hang around somewhere. 17:42:35 *hanging 17:43:03 Granted, I think I copied Guile's implementation of DO, so you can look there too. 17:43:50 Lemme lisppaste that. 17:43:55 You'll enjoy seeing it, I think. 17:45:44 http://paste.lisp.org/display/127317 17:46:36 ... that's huge. 17:46:40 Mine was a lot smaller :) 17:46:56 -!- snizzo_ [~quassel@iglu.cc.uniud.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:46:57 It can be made smaller in a number of wmays. 17:47:00 *ways 17:47:12 It was written for clarity rather than golfiness. :-) 17:47:21 So was mine.. one mo 17:47:25 :-) 17:47:53 wait, you guys write clear code? 17:47:56 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:48:01 you'll never get a job like this. 17:48:11 qu1j0t3: Lol. 17:48:14 cky: :) 17:48:18 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:48:55 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:49:36 http://pastie.org/3257844 <== _if_ I understand correctly what let-syntax means 17:51:51 Imeanm, that's doable right now by just not hiding the do-step macro, but I didn't want to leave it littering the toplevel environment, so I wanted an inner hidden one 17:52:27 Wow, you have way too many special cases. ;-) 17:52:33 Only two 17:52:42 It's only because my templates don't yet support (a b ... c) 17:52:49 So I had to have two cases for or lacking the commands. 17:53:02 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 17:53:44 Otherwise I could just (begin command* ... (loop blablah)) 17:54:00 Infact.. I could maybe add that now as it's not -that- hard. 17:54:14 I jsut had to specialcase the template expansion logic for ... anyway, (see my grumble above :P) and rightnow it stops early 17:55:01 :-P 17:56:07 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 17:57:24 ijp [~user@host86-162-109-158.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:58:15 LeoNerd: Here's a simple reduced case of your let-syntax attempt. Play around with it. :-) 17:59:28 rudybot: (require r6rs/private/base-for-syntax) 17:59:30 cky: your sandbox is ready 17:59:30 cky: Done. 17:59:45 rudybot: (let-syntax ((foo (identifier-syntax 'foo))) foo) 17:59:45 cky: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: identifier-syntax in module: 'program phase: 1 17:59:58 Darn. I had that working so well in Guile. ;-) 18:00:25 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:03:04 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:03:34 -!- tuubow_ [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:10:07 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 18:13:30 mmc [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 18:13:31 ijp` [~user@host109-154-211-33.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:15:23 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:15:31 ijp`` [~user@host86-171-26-204.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:15:56 -!- ijp [~user@host86-162-109-158.range86-162.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:17:49 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:18:34 -!- ijp` [~user@host109-154-211-33.range109-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:21:28 gremmachook [u1735@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rkigvkthxnasydmf] has joined #scheme 18:22:45 Hi, I'm trying to write a function that takes a list and adds 1 to every element. I can't understand why I am going wrong. I get the empty list all the time. http://paste.pocoo.org/show/541190/ 18:22:48 realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has joined #scheme 18:23:02 Surely that's a map oneliner? 18:23:24 LeoNerd: Yes, but since I'm a beginner, I'm trying to that on my own. 18:25:27 I think that the recursion is correct. 18:30:15 gremmachook: Not quite; you need an accumulator if you're doing iterative recursion. (Sounds like an oxymoron, I know.) 18:31:13 That's using cons return 18:31:16 klutometis: The recursion is straightforward: Given a list, add 1 to the first element and cons it with the the same process on the rest of the list. 18:31:34 gremmachook: Never mind; you forgot an `else' in your `cond'. 18:31:59 Either use a else-less if, or designate the else-branch in your cond. 18:32:12 HG` [~HG@dsbg-d9bb1b4d.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:34 s/a else-less/an else-less/. 18:32:40 -!- ijp`` is now known as ijp 18:32:46 *LeoNerd* offhand wonders why vim's default Scheme highlighting uses red for parens... 18:32:51 FML. 18:33:06 It's like it's screaming at me "LOOK HERE IS AN OPEN PAREN!" 18:33:21 Damn, the compiler could have notified that. 18:34:31 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 18:35:15 LeoNerd: Can vim support multiple highlighting? Mine is currently configured for Python. 18:35:21 ? 18:35:35 Only one syntax per file, yes... 18:38:05 gremmachook: Hmm; not necessarily. Your cond was not ill-formed; merely ill-intended: . 18:38:06 http://tinyurl.com/y8w4nxe 18:38:25 I'm not sure why that was a valid `cond' and even what it signified. 18:38:40 Maybe that's an exercise for the reader. 18:39:15 Oh, here we go: it understood `cons' as the test and dutifully added 1 each time. 18:40:26 -!- tessier [~treed@mail.copilotco.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:40:26 tessier [~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco] has joined #scheme 18:41:20 klutometis: Ah, that makes sense. 18:41:48 Thanks. 18:47:00 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48:01 snizzo [~quassel@host101-31-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:51:29 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 18:55:57 gremmachook: It eventually resulted in an empty list because cons failed to run (it was interpreted as a test). 18:56:08 At least that's my hypothesis. 18:58:13 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 19:03:28 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 19:03:59 -!- copumpkin is now known as TwoFixt 19:04:15 turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:07:18 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:22 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 19:09:56 -!- TwoFixt is now known as copumpkin 19:12:00 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:36 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest6791 19:18:35 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 19:19:01 gremmachook: If you use one of the Racket learning languages (e.g., beginner student, etc.), it would flag your code. :-) 19:19:14 gremmachook: So perhaps it's best you start learning using one of those language modes. :-) 19:20:27 -!- kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 19:20:46 klutometis: Yes, cons (the function object) was used as the test expression. 19:23:54 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:27:36 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has joined #scheme 19:27:37 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has quit [Changing host] 19:27:37 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 19:28:44 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 19:28:59 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:35 Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 19:34:14 -!- Transformer [~Transform@ool-4a59e397.dyn.optonline.net] has left #scheme 19:37:23 snizzo_ [~quassel@host110-137-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 19:37:36 -!- snizzo [~quassel@host101-31-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:35 albert-sicp [~albert-si@24-205-81-111.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 19:44:12 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-5.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de] 19:47:07 -!- dous__ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:58:11 cky: Hmm, I'm using MIT Scheme right now. Does Racket have a CLI? 19:58:46 cky: Funny thing, I was just reading your answer on SO! Nice bumping you into here. 19:58:56 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:02:01 jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #scheme 20:02:21 -!- Guest6791 is now known as X-Scale 20:02:48 -!- jimrees_ [~jimrees@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:11:55 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 20:13:22 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-206-218.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:18:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:33:02 confab [~confab@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has joined #scheme 20:34:40 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:40:58 gremmachook: Nice meeting you here. Which answer are you talking about? :-) 20:41:19 gremmachook: Yes, Racket has a terminal-mode REPL, invoked as "racket". 20:43:12 dous [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 20:43:12 -!- dous [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 20:43:12 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 20:47:08 -!- bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-229-88.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:47:16 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:50:38 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:58:34 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 21:00:26 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-255-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 21:01:23 -!- HG` [~HG@dsbg-d9bb1b4d.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:05:09 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-134-221.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 21:07:13 kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 21:09:00 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:10:33 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:12:05 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:13:14 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:19:39 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 21:25:44 -!- antono [~antono@178.120.45.12] has quit [Quit: antono] 21:26:52 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-175.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 21:27:04 pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:27:47 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:29:15 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-233-132.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:30:18 -!- pothos_ [~pothos@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:30:37 pothos [~pothos@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:17 -!- pothos [~pothos@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:33:36 pothos [~pothos@114-36-235-136.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 21:36:56 ijp` [~user@host31-53-120-4.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:37:39 -!- ijp [~user@host86-171-26-204.range86-171.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Disconnected by services] 21:37:46 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 21:38:28 krilborn [~kellar4@94.230.80.140] has joined #scheme 21:39:51 Hi, I'm trying to figure out a Y-Combinator equivalent for data , to create a self-referencing data structure without using mutation.... and I have failed. Is this impossible or am I not clever enough? 21:39:59 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@24-205-81-111.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:41:04 ijp` [~user@host31-52-23-89.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:41:33 something like (lambda () (list *This-List* 1 2 3)) 21:44:28 -!- ijp [~user@host31-53-120-4.range31-53.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:44:37 -!- ijp` is now known as ijp 21:47:44 ijp` [~user@host86-161-100-160.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 21:47:50 albert-sicp [~albert-si@24-205-81-111.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 21:47:51 -!- ijp` [~user@host86-161-100-160.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:50:16 -!- ijp [~user@host31-52-23-89.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:53:27 krilborn: in general it uses mutation 21:53:38 r7rs introduces a read syntax for circular data structures tho 21:54:00 i think it's something like #0=(#0# 1 2 3) 21:56:17 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:57:04 I see, nothing that's <= R6RS? I'd expect one of the let -forms to allow this, may be with mutually recursively defined variables 21:57:43 most schemes have write syntaxes for circular data, but not all have read syntaxes 21:58:18 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:59:23 I'm not familar with that, what would be an example of such a write-syntax ( it's implementation-specific?) 22:01:02 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 22:01:22 -!- X-Scale is now known as Guest21470 22:03:15 -!- Guest21470 is now known as X-Scale 22:04:21 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:05:35 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 22:08:34 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has left #scheme 22:10:59 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 22:15:14 -!- aoh [~aki@adsl-99-115.netplaza.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:15:53 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:16:36 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 22:18:17 yours_truly [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 22:18:56 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:21:58 -!- yours_truly [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:22:00 krilborn: Have a look at SRFI 38. 22:22:08 krilborn: That's the same syntax as the one adopted for R7RS. 22:22:44 rudybot: (call-with-input-string "#0=(#0# 1 2 3)" read) 22:22:44 cky: ; Value: #0=(#0# 1 2 3) 22:23:34 krilborn: If you want to create circular data structures without involving the reader, in Racket, you can use their graph builder thingy. 22:23:51 krilborn: Otherwise, with other Scheme implementations, you have to use mutation, like wingo said. 22:24:21 krilborn: (In Racket, pairs are immutable. Thus, the mutation approach won't work. Hence the graph builder.) 22:26:19 Nisstyre [~yours@c-208-90-102-250.netflash.net] has joined #scheme 22:27:34 ASau [~user@95-24-206-218.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 22:27:42 cky: Thanks, I'm looking at the srfi, but neither google nor racket doc search give anything on "graph builder"... 22:28:16 chri2008 [~christian@111.171-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 22:28:30 chri2008_ [~christian@111.171-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #scheme 22:29:02 -!- chri2008_ [~christian@111.171-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:02 -!- chri2008 [~christian@111.171-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 22:29:31 krilborn: http://pre.racket-lang.org/docs/html/reference/reader.html?q=reader#(part._parse-graph) 22:30:37 Yeah, that. 22:30:50 -!- bweaver [~user@host-68-169-158-230.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:31:43 great, thanks 22:33:38 -!- dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:35:47 "Holy crap, tiger, quick get in the cdr" (I think maybe 5 people ever will understand that) 22:36:29 phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #scheme 22:36:29 -!- phax [~phax@cpc14-haye17-2-0-cust110.haye.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Changing host] 22:36:29 phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #scheme 22:36:33 I am not among them 22:37:01 As compared: Holy crap, lion, quick get in the car 22:37:30 Why so few? 22:38:51 his salary is inversely proportional to the number of people who get his jokes, you see 22:43:19 jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 22:44:04 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@adaptive.cs.unm.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 22:44:56 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:44:59 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:45:24 jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 22:46:19 -!- phax [~phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:47:21 oh 22:47:34 *qu1j0t3* steps back slowly from the channel 22:48:29 inhale, exhale 22:49:49 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:49:56 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 22:50:09 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:50:42 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 22:54:02 so.... Racket reader graph thingy: (read (open-input-string "#0=(666 . #0#)" )) ! = REPL explosion on satan overload, but (read (open-input-string "(#1=100 #1# #1#)" )) works as expected 22:55:04 mister_m [~mattosaur@2620:0:2250:2104:223:5aff:fe7e:cc97] has joined #scheme 22:56:54 _schulte_ [~eschulte@209.234.140.58] has joined #scheme 22:58:47 satan overload 23:00:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@thewall.novi.lib.mi.us] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 23:01:10 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 23:03:05 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:03:08 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 23:03:32 -!- krilborn [~kellar4@94.230.80.140] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:03:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 23:04:40 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:05:02 -!- confab [~confab@public-nat1.scc.losrios.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:05:29 kilborn` [~kellar4@94.230.80.140] has joined #scheme 23:05:47 too much satan? 23:06:12 rudybot: (read (open-input-string "#0=(666 . #0#)" )) 23:06:12 *offby1: ; Value: #0=(666 . #0#) 23:06:15 *offby1* whistles innocently 23:06:23 something like that, i have to change my kill -sighup windowManager to it's not next to the "jump to emacs" shortcut 23:06:29 rudybot has a vial of holy water right by the monitor 23:06:32 s/to/so/ 23:07:07 rudybot: (define wut (read (open-input-string "#0=(666 . #0#)" ))) 23:07:07 *offby1: Done. 23:07:11 rudybot: (pair? wut) 23:07:12 *offby1: ; Value: #t 23:07:14 yeah, I realized it does work, it's just not printed as an infinite list to the REPL which is a feature i suppose 23:07:17 rudybot: (car? wut) 23:07:17 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: car? in module: 'program 23:07:22 rudybot: (car wut) 23:07:22 *offby1: ; Value: 666 23:07:26 rudybot: (crr wut) 23:07:26 *offby1: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: crr in module: 'program 23:07:28 heh 23:07:33 rudybot: (cdr wut) 23:07:34 *offby1: ; Value: #0=(666 . #0#) 23:07:41 rudybot: (eq? wut (cdr wut)) 23:07:41 *offby1: ; Value: #t 23:08:14 my netowrk is close to saturated ... typing has lots of latency 23:08:16 when I did SICP I used mit scheme, which gladly explodes in your face 23:08:27 I could probably arrange to have rudybot explode. 23:08:34 rudybot: please explode 23:08:35 *offby1: aha. defining the jisx0201 charset is what cause qemu-armel to explode. 23:08:53 but can you fix his grammer? 23:09:37 un possible 23:09:45 he refuses to study 23:15:05 erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:10 rudybot: init racket 23:17:10 ski: your sandbox is ready 23:17:19 rudybot: eval (shared ((foo (cons "kilborn`" foo))) foo) 23:17:19 ski: ; Value: #0=("kilborn`" . #0#) 23:17:34 -!- shurane [~mortimer@65-86-91-130.client.dsl.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:19:12 even better 23:19:42 I just wish the racket docs (which are excellent) were more discoverable 23:21:08 -!- _schulte_ [~eschulte@209.234.140.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:31:33 rudybot: eval (shared (( foo (f 1 ( (lambda (x) x) foo) ))) foo) 23:31:34 kilborn`: your sandbox is ready 23:31:34 kilborn`: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: f in module: 'program 23:32:46 rudybot: eval (define (f a b) (list a b)) 23:32:47 kilborn`: Done. 23:32:51 rudybot: eval (shared (( foo (f 1 ( (lambda (x) x) foo) ))) foo) 23:32:51 kilborn`: ; Value: (1 #) 23:33:19 expected #=0(1 . #0) 23:34:00 CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 23:34:06 rudybot: eval (shared (( foo (f "ski" ( (lambda (x) x) foo) ))) foo) 23:34:07 kilborn`: ; Value: ("ski" #) 23:36:49 yeah, i'm pretty sure `shared' is limited 23:37:40 rudybot: (read (open-input-string "#0=(666 . (myFunc #0#))" )) 23:37:41 kilborn`: ; Value: #0=(666 myFunc #0#) 23:37:52 doesn't work either 23:37:59 so I'm still stuck 23:38:05 rudybot: doc shared 23:38:05 ski: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/shared.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fshared..rkt)._shared)) 23:41:22 -!- offby1 is now known as offby1-otron 23:41:31 -!- offby1-otron is now known as offby1 23:42:08 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:43:48 karswell : so .. what are you trying to do ? 23:44:36 break rudybot, naturally 23:44:53 updating to KDE 4.8 (trying) 23:45:34 Splasher [~splasher@luz95-1-88-174-81-134.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 23:45:37 I'm trying to create a self-rferencing data-structure without using mutation 23:45:55 rudybot: is it true what they say, that every #scheme conversation eventually degenereates into bot abuse? 23:45:56 ski: Move your eyes from left to right along an example equation. For every lexeme, ask yourself, "What would I do with this information, knowing only what I do so far?" 23:46:43 kilborn` : for any specific purpose, or just for the fun of it ? 23:47:20 ski: isn't fun a specific purpose? 23:47:23 (iow : for any specific application, or in general ?) 23:47:34 hello everyone 23:47:37 *ski* thinks fun is a general purpose 23:48:08 hello there, Splasher 23:48:40 -!- snizzo_ [~quassel@host110-137-dynamic.180-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:33 I'm only a beginner in scheme so be gentle ^^ I'm trying to make an implementation of a flood fill function 23:49:34 kilborn` : if you're after doing it in general, you might enjoy doing such tying-the-know things in Haskell 23:49:42 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 23:50:06 in a strict setting, i'm not aware of any modular way to do it 23:51:23 I'm using an array of boolean and a #t is for a black pixel and #f for a white pixel 23:51:35 (hm, i suppose building rational terms in Prolog could be close) 23:52:26 Haskell is on the todo list. I'm actually trying to do some small program for which i wanted to code up a slightly interesting tree traversal, so I coded up a tree to play with and then became bothered that I was using mutation and decided to try and find a nicer way, I hope someday to pop the stack and get back home to mother. 23:53:08 coding for fun is like that 23:53:49 i really don't understand how to create a list of pair 23:54:17 and how to add pair ( my x and y ) in my list :-/ 23:54:26 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:56:05 add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 23:57:02 Splasher: are you familiar with box-and-pointer diagrams? 23:58:09 not at all ^^ 23:58:12 (kilborn` : anyway, i think and is relevant) 23:58:36 Splasher : do you have any current piece of code which you're struggling with ? 23:59:14 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:59:33 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 00:00:08 Splasher: you should have a model of the way pairs are strung together to build data structures, box-and-pointer diagrams will help you do that 00:00:08 rudybot: eval (define my-list-of-pairs (list (list 0 1) (list 2 3) (list 4 5))) 00:00:08 ski: Done. 00:00:27 ski: thanks, will look. 00:00:45 rudybot: eval my-list-of-pairs 00:00:46 ski: ; Value: ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5)) 00:00:49 rudybot: eval (cons (list 220 284) my-list-of-pairs) 00:00:49 ski: ; Value: ((220 284) (0 1) (2 3) (4 5)) 00:01:37 that was meant to show how one can add stuff to the front of a list (producing a new list) 00:02:07 in deed, my problem is that i want to create an empty list in the beginning and fill it with the (x y) in argument if the (x y) pixel is #f 00:02:15 Splasher: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-15.html 00:02:21 *ski* isn't sure how adding stuff to lists comes into Splasher's goal of wanting to flood-fill, using arrays, though 00:02:27 thanks for the example is very usefull :-) 00:03:05 rudybot: eval my-list-of-pairs ; note how `my-list-of-pairs' still refers to the old list, the `cons' above didn't change that 00:03:05 ski: ; Value: ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5)) 00:03:13 I think that my way of thinking about the scheme list is not right (i'm use to java style :-/) 00:03:29 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:03:32 ski: it never occurred to me that you could put a comment at the end of an "eval" line 00:04:08 -!- add^_ [~add^_^@m212-152-5-100.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: add^_] 00:04:11 toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has joined #scheme 00:04:14 yeah, if you've only done imperative programming before, then you should think of learning functional programming as (to some extent) learning to program all over again 00:04:38 oh it's not _that_ bad 00:04:47 i.e., be prepared that you will have to unlearn some common imperative ways to do stuff, when you're learning functional programming 00:05:11 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:05:17 (but of course imperative programming is available in Scheme as well -- it's just that you shouldn't reach for it when there's no good reason for it) 00:05:31 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 00:05:44 yep, you're right, i have done some ocaml last year but i forgot a lot of things about it 00:06:06 offby1 : yeah, i can't recall whether i've done so to rudybot before, but we do that to lambdabot all the time 00:06:24 well, that probably helps 00:06:49 offby1 : yeah, hence "to some extent" :) 00:07:44 Splasher : anyway, if you have any code you're having trouble with, feel free to paste it to the paste site in the topic 00:07:55 I just want to tell you guys that it's my very first time on an freenode irc and I'm happy to see that people are friendly and welcoming 00:08:03 if you do imperative programming in scheme, you'll be typing the ! a lot :) 00:08:10 if you just have general (or specific) questions not pertaining specifically to any piece of code, just ask 00:08:39 Thanks 00:08:45 Splasher : ok, are you new to IRC in general, as well ? 00:09:23 I will read the guile documentation for helping me in the general comprehension of scheme :-) 00:10:04 there are also books which you might want to try 00:10:20 ski : yes, I have tried a french IRC ( yes, I'm french ;-) ) and it's quite dead 00:10:49 "How to Design Programs" (HtDP), "The Little Schemer" (TLS), "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" (SICP) 00:11:32 *ski* would show links to two of those, except minion has been mostly absent, lately 00:12:25 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 00:12:26 Splasher : ok, so then you know that if you don't get an answer immediately, you should generally wait (at *least* a couple of hours) :) 00:13:17 sky : I'll see if they can be usefull, but I think that is gone to be difficult because I have a deadline next friday ^^ 00:13:55 (also the common "don't ask to ask, just ask" -- better to jump out and state your real question, and then people can decide whether they can / want to answer -- instead of asking whether anybody is there, or whether anybody knows anything about X, &c. usually the reply to that is silence) 00:14:18 ok 00:14:53 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has joined #scheme 00:15:35 sky : So my first question ought to be "How do we do list in scheme ?" ^^ 00:16:08 rudybot: eval '() ; the empty list 00:16:09 ski: ; Value: () 00:16:27 rudybot: eval (cons 0 (cons 1 (cons 2 '()))) ; a non-empty list 00:16:27 ski: ; Value: (0 1 2) 00:16:34 sky : Was a joke :-P 00:16:50 rudybot: eval (list 0 1 2) ; convenient shorthand to creating a list of a known length 00:16:51 ski: ; Value: (0 1 2) 00:17:06 Splasher : .. oh 00:17:38 ski : but your example is usefull at my level :-/ 00:18:05 ski : I really need to restart with basic ... 00:18:42 ASau` [~user@95-26-139-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 00:19:41 well, maybe i should state that lists in Scheme are single-linked lists (they are not arrays) 00:21:31 something like : let (pixel-list (cons x y)) 00:22:45 -!- ASau [~user@95-24-206-218.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:23:43 I want to create a list where you can only put pair of int 00:24:36 rudybot: eval (define a (cons (cons 1 2) (cons (cons 3 4) '()))) 00:24:36 kilborn`: Done. 00:24:48 rudybot: eval (define b (list (cons 1 2) (cons 3 4) )) 00:24:48 kilborn`: Done. 00:24:57 rudybot: eval (equal? a b) 00:24:58 kilborn`: ; Value: #t 00:25:09 Splasher: do you understand why those are equal? 00:25:57 yes I think 00:26:25 should i do (define a (cons y)) 00:26:39 nop 00:27:24 hum (define list-pixel ( cons y ( cons x ()))) 00:28:51 (cons y (cons x '())) 00:28:53 is the same as 00:29:02 (list y x) 00:29:32 ok 00:30:00 however, 00:30:03 (cons y x) 00:30:06 is different 00:30:15 in functional programming, composition is often a nice idiom, start with with small things and compose them to build up larger things 00:30:27 how would you define a single intance of a coordinate? 00:30:30 `cons' builds a pair, in the latter case, a pair containing `y' and `x' (presumably numbers) 00:30:57 lists are built out of pairs (and the empty list), but each pair belonging to the list has a *list* as the second component 00:32:03 true, and it's all much clearer if you look at a box-and-pointer diagram 00:32:23 hum, like the head and tail in ocaml when you are using list ? 00:32:54 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 00:34:00 yes 00:34:41 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:34:51 ok 00:34:56 `(cons x x-list)' is like `x :: x_list' in OCaml 00:35:29 Oh, ok :-) 00:35:42 and `head' and `tail' correspond to `car' and `cdr' in Scheme 00:36:20 (except that `cons' and `car' and `cdr' are also used for pairs that aren't used to build lists, in Scheme) 00:36:38 and so what is cdar ? 00:37:09 (oh, sorry, it's `hd' and `tl', not `head' and `tail', in OCaml) 00:37:45 well `(cdar my-list-of-lists-of-numbers)' is the same as `(cdr (car my-list-of-lists-of-numbers))' 00:38:08 so, it gets the tail of the head (which must then be a list) of the input list 00:38:33 ski: oh, it's very clear 00:38:35 so, it's just a shorthand 00:38:56 ski : i'm trying to do my function 00:40:02 ok 00:41:44 -!- tauntaun` [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42:08 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 00:43:19 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-138.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 00:43:53 *ski* wonders whether Splasher is near INRIA 00:44:00 Guest55743 [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 00:44:27 ski: near INRIA ? 00:45:03 00:45:21 they develop OCaml 00:46:14 (i.e. ) 00:47:01 ski : oh ok ^^ ( i'm not sure about the meaning of wonders in french :-/ ) 00:47:43 ski: ok, i found a understable traduction ^^ 00:47:51 00:48:13 ski: nop, i'm not near from the INRIA at all ^^ 00:48:38 ski: Paris is quite far from Grenoble. 00:48:59 ok 00:49:00 ski: how could i test if a list is empty ? 00:49:40 rudybot: (null? '()) 00:49:40 ski: ; Value: #t 00:49:47 rudybot: (null? (cons '() '())) 00:49:48 ski: ; Value: #f 00:50:02 ok :-) 00:50:17 rudybot: (pair? '()) 00:50:17 ski: ; Value: #f 00:50:21 rudybot: (pair? (cons '() '())) 00:50:22 ski: ; Value: #t 00:50:27 rudybot: (pair? (cons 2 3)) 00:50:27 ski: ; Value: #t 00:50:37 rudybot: (list? (cons 2 3)) 00:50:37 ski: ; Value: #f 00:50:46 rudybot: (list? (cons 2 (cons 3 '()))) 00:50:46 ski: ; Value: #t 00:51:08 thanks :-) 00:51:43 how you use the rudybot ? 00:51:44 you'll usually want to use either `null?' or `pair?' (or both), not that commonly `list?' 00:51:54 like i did above 00:52:00 try it ? 00:52:10 I AM NOT A TOY 00:52:24 rudybot : are you not a toy? 00:52:28 rudybot: are you not a toy? 00:52:28 ski: Well, assuming multi-file projects. Trivial sources like elisp files all go in a single directory. 00:52:46 *ski* nods solemnly 00:53:08 ^^ 00:53:14 It's great o/ 00:53:15 ALSO I CN HZ COOKIE? 00:53:26 rudybot: botsnack 00:53:26 ski: error: reference to an identifier before its definition: botsnack in module: 'program 00:54:28 -!- Guest55743 is now known as tauntaun 00:54:58 -!- tauntaun is now known as Guest98150 00:55:53 hum, i want to do an action for each element of my list 00:56:09 what is the action ? 00:56:29 -!- Guest98150 is now known as tauntaun 00:56:33 rudybot: (for ([elt (list 1 2 3 'whoops "cardigan sweater!!")]) (printf "I'm doing an action to ~a~%" elt)) 00:56:34 *offby1: whoops, Number should be "all" or lie between 0 and 0 00:56:41 rudybot: eval (for ([elt (list 1 2 3 'whoops "cardigan sweater!!")]) (printf "I'm doing an action to ~a~%" elt)) 00:56:41 *offby1: ; stdout: "I'm doing an action to 1\nI'm doing an action to 2\nI'm doing an action to 3\nI'm doing an action to whoops\nI'm doing an action to cardigan sweater!!\n" 00:56:56 note, however, that "for" is specific to racket. 00:57:01 So There 00:57:07 rudybot: (for-each (lambda (x) (display (* x x)) (newline)) (list 0 1 2)) 00:57:07 ski: ; stdout: "0\n1\n4\n" 00:57:16 oh yeah. I forgot about for-each 00:57:25 -!- kk` [~kk@unaffiliated/kk/x-5380134] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:57:30 rudybot: (cons 18 (map (lambda (x) (* x x)) (list 0 1 2))) 00:57:30 ski: ; Value: (18 0 1 4) 00:57:30 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C43316.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:57:37 Ah done drunk the PLT Kool-Ade 00:59:11 i think i will use for each ^^ 00:59:13 Splasher : `for-each' performs an action for each element of a list (in order). `map' transforms each element of a list (in some unspecified order) into a new element, collecting the results into a new list 00:59:43 rudybot: have you seen specbot? 00:59:43 ski: seen ootput 01:00:39 rudybot: eval (define (display-and-newline datum) (display datum) (newline)) 01:00:39 ski: Done. 01:01:04 rudybot: (for-each display-and-newline (list 0 1 2)) ; Splasher, you can also name the action you want to perform, in this way 01:01:05 ski: Splasher : `for-each' performs an action for each element of a list (in order). `map' transforms each element of a list (in some unspecified order) into a new element, collecting the results into a new list 01:01:12 bah 01:01:19 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:01:20 rudybot: eval (for-each display-and-newline (list 0 1 2)) 01:01:20 ski: ; stdout: "0\n1\n2\n" 01:01:26 *offby1* cackles evilly 01:01:48 ski: I honestly don't understand why "he" did that. 01:01:51 *ski* would prefer it if it didn't work at all, without the `eval' 01:02:01 I've gone back and forth. 01:02:15 offby1 : i forgot the `eval', and it's apparently guessed this time that i didn't want to `eval' it 01:02:47 karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:03:59 hum, I must a map and a lambda when i use for each ? 01:04:10 no 01:04:47 the `lambda' was for specifying the action that i wanted to do with each element, for the `for-each' 01:04:51 So the real basic of the for-each use with a list look like what ? 01:05:14 (for-each (lambda (x) (display (* x x)) (newline)) (list 0 1 2)) 01:05:17 is the same as 01:05:18 (for-each display-and-newline (list 0 1 2)) 01:05:22 assuming i've defined 01:05:26 (define (display-and-newline datum) (display datum) (newline)) 01:05:34 which is really just a shorthand for defining 01:05:42 (define display-and-newline (lambda (datum) (display datum) (newline))) 01:06:22 in some cases it might be nicer to give a name (like `display-and-newline') to the action to do to each element 01:06:30 (or you might already have a name for it) 01:07:02 in other cases it's nicer just to write it in-line (similar to how you usually wouldn't name/label loop (bodies) in Java) 01:07:26 look at the wiki page of flood fill because i'm tring to do the third implementation of it ;-) 01:08:05 you will understand that I have a lot of action to do :-/ 01:08:22 the main difference between `for-each' and `map' is that `for-each' is for *performing* some action (/ side-effect) for each element of the list, while `map' is for when you want to *transform* a list of values into a new list of values, each value transformed in the same way 01:08:40 which wiki ? 01:08:40 -!- tauntaun [~user@li327-197.members.linode.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 01:08:54 english one 01:09:01 *ski* looks at 01:09:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_fill 01:09:44 (oh, *wikipedia*) 01:10:18 ski: sorry, my first thinking of wiki is wikipedia ^^ 01:11:54 *ski* when hearing "wiki" first thinks of , which is the original wiki 01:13:45 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.231] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 01:14:35 *offby1* nods gravely 01:14:38 From Portland! 01:14:40 Or Beaverton 01:14:44 rah rah 01:14:57 I wasn't knowing that 01:19:33 -!- albert-sicp [~albert-si@24-205-81-111.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:20:53 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:21:23 *ski* . o O ( ".. it pushes the nodes into a LIFO queue .." ) 01:22:04 someone is confused 01:22:10 (am i the only one who's disturbed by that ?) 01:23:03 it's possible to be in lifo mode in scheme ? 01:23:06 Splasher : anyway, i'd first try to implement the simpler version 01:23:31 que? 01:23:42 If you want to see my code for the fun :-° 01:24:17 if you can only access to element with cdr and car, it's not possible to do a LIFO queue, no ? 01:25:00 (define (flood-fill! image x y ) 01:25:00 (if (read-pixel image x y) 01:25:00 (image) 01:25:00 (let (list-pixel '(x y)) 01:25:00 (for-each list-pixel) 01:25:02 01:25:05 )) 01:25:21 a "LIFO queue" is a contradiction in terms 01:25:39 if it's LIFO, it's a stack, not a queue 01:25:48 (vanilla) queues are FIFO 01:26:04 (there's also priority queues, dequeues, &c.) 01:27:22 oh, you're right, i was inverting the termes 01:27:25 terms 01:27:37 well, the wikipedia page was, anyway 01:27:58 what is the role of the `image' parameter ? 01:28:27 give the background to modify 01:28:28 hm, i suppose it's the image to fill in 01:28:38 the background is an array of #f and #t 01:28:43 yes 01:29:45 i think instead of `(image)' you probably want to "do nothing" in that branch 01:29:56 yep 01:30:06 well, are you filling black->white or white->black ? 01:30:20 i just want to return the original image in that case 01:30:23 or should this be a parameter as well ? 01:30:41 white to black 01:30:50 #f to #t 01:30:54 well, if you're modifying it, you don't need to return it (but it doesn't hurt, i suppose) 01:31:15 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 01:31:20 if you want to return it, you should say `image', not `(image)' -- the latter attempts to call `image' as a procedure (with zero arguments) 01:32:29 instead of '(x y) maybe you intended (list x y) (i'm not sure) 01:33:28 what is the difference ? 01:33:49 rudybot: eval (list (+ 2 2) (* 3 4)) 01:33:49 ski: ; Value: (4 12) 01:33:54 rudybot: eval '((+ 2 2) (* 3 4)) 01:33:54 ski: ; Value: ((+ 2 2) (* 3 4)) 01:33:55 -!- karswell__ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:34:11 rudybot: eval (let ((x 2) (y 3)) (list x y)) 01:34:12 ski: ; Value: (2 3) 01:34:15 rudybot: eval (let ((x 2) (y 3)) '(x y)) 01:34:15 ski: ; Value: (x y) 01:34:16 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:34:39 '(x y) is (almost) the same as (list 'x 'y) 01:34:44 ok, so i was thinking about (list x y) ^^ 01:35:28 if you want to use `for-each', you'll need a list of values to let it loop over -- what list did you want to use ? 01:35:55 the list-pixel list 01:37:30 containing what ? booleans (representing pixel colors) ? 01:37:31 coordinate pairs ? for the whole image ? for only the pixels to the left and right of the current pixel which are white ? something else ? 01:38:20 maybe just for the four neighbours of the current pixel ? 01:40:17 the four neighbours (x y) (x+1 y) (x-1 y) (x y+1) (x y-1) 01:40:40 ok 01:41:08 then the `let' above is misplaced 01:41:23 why ? 01:41:48 you don't typically create two `x',`y' variables, and then change their values to each coordinate pair 01:42:22 let's say you write 01:42:46 (for-each (lambda (list-pixel) 01:42:58 ...) 01:43:11 (list (list x y) 01:43:24 (list (+ x 1) y) 01:43:28 (list (- x 1) y) 01:43:36 (list x (+ y 1)) 01:43:43 (list x (- y 1)))) 01:44:17 then `list-pixel' will, inside `...', in turn become each of the two-element-lists of the large list at the end 01:45:16 however, you can use `let' inside `...' to give names to the two parts of `list-pixel', like 01:45:21 (for-each (lambda (list-pixel) 01:45:52 (let ((neighbour-x (car list-pixel)) 01:46:04 (neighbour-y (cadr list-pixel))) 01:46:20 ...)) 01:46:25 ...) 01:47:19 Splasher : do you understand ? 01:48:01 I think 01:48:20 It's more easy to use the first version, no ? 01:48:27 IMO 01:48:55 the first version at that wikipedia page is simpler than the latter versions there, yes 01:50:12 the first version will be enough ;-) 01:51:06 If I understand as, I should, the scheme before my deadline, I will do the other version, for sure :-) 01:51:30 _schulte_ [~eschulte@c-174-56-1-147.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:15 (btw, if you're using Racket, if you prefer, you can use `for' as offby1 sketched above, instead of `for-each' -- the `for' in Racket allows you to write the list before the action, instead of after -- however, it's also easy to define a variant of `for-each' that takes the parameters in the other order as well) 01:53:36 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has joined #scheme 01:54:31 I understand why you mean :-) 01:55:09 hum, i'm trying to write the function 01:56:54 ski: you're from USA ? 01:57:15 (btw, if you want to paste longer pieces of code, you can use ) 01:57:23 Splasher : no 01:59:09 ski: Usefull ;-) 01:59:19 (if you want to, you can try `/whois ski' to see my hostname, from which one can guess the country from the top-level domain) 02:00:29 when i'm typping /whois ski 02:01:01 nothing hapend ... 02:01:10 that's because he's a ninja 02:01:21 clearly he's from japan 02:01:26 ^^ 02:01:47 Splasher : try looking in the server window (window 1) in your irssi 02:02:01 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:03:19 -!- karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:04:47 ski: so you from USA ;-) 02:05:26 no 02:06:10 ski: but the whois tell me pittsburgh ... 02:06:55 that's the server on the FreeNode IRC network that i'm connected to 02:07:12 you should look as the first line 02:09:46 ski: sweden ^^ ? 02:10:05 (: correct 02:10:44 It's time for me to go to bed ... 02:11:09 Tomorow at 8h, I will be just dead -_- 02:11:23 heh, less than five hours til then 02:12:03 Yep :-/ 02:12:42 In all case, I will come to the channel during next week 02:12:50 -!- mister_m [~mattosaur@2620:0:2250:2104:223:5aff:fe7e:cc97] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:13:07 thanks you a lot ski for all the help you give me :-) 02:13:07 g'night 02:13:12 (yw) 02:13:58 *Splasher* definitively think that IRC rocks o/ 02:14:25 good night everyone :-) 02:14:52 -!- Splasher [~splasher@luz95-1-88-174-81-134.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 02:31:42 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:55 karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 02:33:09 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:34:37 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has joined #scheme 02:35:11 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:32 <_schulte_> I'm trying my hand at scheme coming from CL, any suggestion for a "scheme from CL resource"? 02:42:25 <_schulte_> looking for someplace which can suggest replacements for all my missing friends like loop, format, butlast, push, etc... 02:44:33 .. for `loop', you might want to try (also see ) 02:47:23 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:47:26 dous_ [~dous@210.24.42.190] has joined #scheme 02:50:27 -!- toekutr [~user@50-0-51-2.dsl.static.sonic.net] has left #scheme 02:56:39 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 03:09:33 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-198-254.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 03:12:14 -!- bfgun is now known as bfig 03:13:38 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:15:01 mister_m [~mattosaur@216-80-123-91.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:16:18 <_schulte_> ski: thanks, I'll read those 03:19:06 -!- karswell_ [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 03:20:53 githogori [~githogori@c-50-131-15-16.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:23:52 asynchrony [~user@adsl-98-65-170-17.dab.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:33:14 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 03:39:41 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 03:41:47 cswords [~cswords@c-98-223-234-80.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:42:31 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has joined #scheme 03:42:34 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.14.168] has quit [Changing host] 03:42:34 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 03:53:22 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:55:44 jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 04:02:14 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 04:04:04 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:11:28 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 04:12:11 jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 04:12:49 -!- CampinSam [~CampinSam@24-176-98-217.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 04:13:16 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:18:32 -!- jrslepak [~jrslepak@173-161-171-177-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 04:25:47 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 04:36:50 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:37:47 dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:50:41 if I installed an egg through chicken-scheme, where can I view the sample code that came with it 05:00:16 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:01:43 mister_m: you could try downloading the egg's source 05:02:01 you can do that with: chicken-install -r eggname 05:02:09 also, come to #chicken 05:02:14 hypnocat: hah ok 05:09:35 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-237.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 05:11:49 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-166-175.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:14:54 shurane [~mortimer@pool-71-246-112-82.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:18:29 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:19:58 confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:24:58 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 05:27:55 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 05:30:13 confab [~confab@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:36:41 -!- asynchrony [~user@adsl-98-65-170-17.dab.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:46:34 tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has joined #scheme 05:48:40 replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has joined #scheme 05:51:18 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 05:53:10 how can I iterate through a list, and then perform an action with each element 05:54:03 I can easily write an iterative process to go through a list, but I only have the base case and general case that way and no room for an operation 05:54:40 (for-each (lambda (el) (... el )) lst) 05:54:50 thats one way 05:55:40 or you can code it up yourself with a recursive call, where the base case is '() => (if (null? lst) ... ) 05:56:32 or you can map ... #;15> (map (lambda (x) (+ x 1)) '(9 0 4)) 05:56:34 (10 1 5) 05:57:01 qu1j0t3: I didn't even consider using map 05:57:10 qu1j0t3: I am new at this! ah! 05:57:14 #;16> (for-each (lambda (x) (print (* 2 x))) '(8 11 9)) 05:57:16 16 05:57:18 22 05:57:20 18 05:57:25 mister_m: np 05:57:59 *qu1j0t3* disappears into the lurk 05:58:07 mister_m: It took me a long time to learn to use unfold impulsively. :-P 05:58:10 qu1j0t3: o/ 05:58:17 pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 05:58:34 mister_m: (map is a special case of unfold. map is also a special case of fold.) 05:58:37 cky: nite 06:00:39 -!- erjiang [~erjiang@7.80.244.66.jest.smithvilledigital.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:02:21 -!- pjb- [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 06:08:05 if I declare a constant on a line outside of any block with a define, can I use that constant in other defines ? 06:12:28 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:15:49 mister_m: I presume you meant to ask: are top-level defines accessible from other functions? If in the same module, then yes. 06:15:57 (And if your Scheme implementation has no modules, then yes, too.) 06:16:33 cky: thanks. I think in this case I had just forgotten to C-x C-e in emacs 06:16:47 cky: still learning, of course 06:17:29 *nods* 06:27:13 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:33:48 -!- replore [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41:36 -!- shurane [~mortimer@pool-71-246-112-82.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:41:51 -!- copumpkin is now known as BarackObama 06:42:17 -!- BarackObama is now known as copumpkin 06:44:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-138.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:56:07 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:56:16 -!- amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-157-212.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:56:33 ijp [~user@host86-161-100-160.range86-161.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 06:57:34 irctest [~rll@118.113.137.221] has joined #scheme 06:57:52 amoe [~amoe@host-78-147-173-172.as13285.net] has joined #scheme 07:00:39 irctest1 [~rll@118.113.137.221] has joined #scheme 07:00:39 -!- irctest [~rll@118.113.137.221] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:01:14 -!- kilborn` [~kellar4@94.230.80.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:02:22 irctest [~rll@118.113.137.221] has joined #scheme 07:02:22 -!- irctest1 [~rll@118.113.137.221] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:03:23 -!- irctest [~rll@118.113.137.221] has left #scheme 07:11:16 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:11:59 -!- mister_m [~mattosaur@216-80-123-91.c3-0.drb-ubr1.chi-drb.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:15:56 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17:37 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:21:19 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-95-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 07:23:16 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-46.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28:44 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-183-255.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 07:45:09 -!- tom_i [~thomasing@ingserv.demon.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:56:22 mmc [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has joined #scheme 08:00:38 -!- mmc [~michal@178-85-131-65.dynamic.upc.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:01:24 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 08:05:03 hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has joined #scheme 08:05:03 -!- hkBst [~marijn@79.170.210.172] has quit [Changing host] 08:05:03 hkBst [~marijn@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 08:21:22 -!- dnolen [~user@ppp-70-249-145-33.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:23:26 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-difsknmosjpbkkfy] has joined #scheme 08:28:48 antono [~antono@178.120.45.12] has joined #scheme 08:40:43 tom_i [~thomasing@cmc.beaming.biz] has joined #scheme 08:44:04 bfgun [~b_fin_g@r186-48-199-81.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:47:36 -!- bfig [~b_fin_g@r186-48-255-147.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:47:59 kvda [~kvda@124-169-134-221.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #scheme 09:04:53 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:06:16 -!- antono [~antono@178.120.45.12] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:18:55 antono [~antono@178.121.55.220] has joined #scheme 09:20:17 Blkt [~user@82.84.135.165] has joined #scheme 09:25:23 -!- rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 09:25:39 rostayob [~rostayob@02d99acf.bb.sky.com] has joined #scheme 09:26:13 good (late) morning everyone 09:36:41 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:37:26 ASau`` [~user@93-80-248-110.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:41:31 -!- ASau` [~user@95-26-139-39.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:55:50 Is there an alternative to the format function in MIT-Scheme? 09:56:33 It doesn't recognize format at all. 09:57:25 format is a run-time-loadable option. To use it, execute 09:57:25 (load-option 'format) 09:57:56 see format is a run-time-loadable option. To use it, execute 09:57:57 (load-option 'format) 09:57:59 oops 09:58:07 https://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/documentation/mit-scheme-ref/Format.html 09:58:08 http://tinyurl.com/7xuzs4t 09:58:12 It's not a function by itself? 09:58:33 it is, it is just not loaded by default 09:58:43 Is this like how namespaces work? 10:00:28 I don't seen where namespaces come in here 10:00:54 another option may be fmt 10:01:28 ah, it doesn't explicitly state MIT scheme support 10:03:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.9.30] has joined #scheme 10:03:45 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.9.30] has quit [Changing host] 10:03:45 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 10:09:49 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 10:14:48 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:20:29 -!- MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:20:32 RageOfThou [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 10:36:10 ke 10:36:21 wow, sorry, cat on the keyboard 10:40:36 -!- tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:44:12 masm [~masm@2.80.194.230] has joined #scheme 10:50:37 ASau``` [~user@93-80-199-24.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 10:53:16 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-134-221.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 10:53:47 Razz [~tim@kompiler.org] has joined #scheme 10:54:36 -!- ASau`` [~user@93-80-248-110.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:19:29 dzhus [~sphinx@95-25-98-202.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 11:38:04 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has joined #scheme 11:52:13 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 11:52:16 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:53:12 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 11:56:53 *LeoNerd* muses aloud 11:57:22 Would let be more readable, if there was a literal 'in' token, to make it read (let (one 1) (two 2) in (+ one two)) ? 11:59:27 No, it's simplier to have all the binding in a list so you have (let bindings . body) 11:59:30 Easier to parse. 11:59:44 (cadr form) --> bindings ; (cddr form) --> body 12:00:02 (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (+ one two)) ; see? 12:00:30 I know it's simpler, it's jsut the bindings and body start to get lost in an undifferentiated sea of parens 12:00:40 That nice "in" there gives my eye something to hold on to :) 12:01:06 LeoNerd: There's no underdifferenciated sea of parens. There are no parentheses in lisp. 12:01:21 (car '(let ((one 1) (two 2)) (+ one two))) let 12:01:26 (cadr '(let ((one 1) (two 2)) (+ one two))) --> ((one 1) (two 2)) 12:01:37 (caddr '(let ((one 1) (two 2)) (+ one two))) --> (+ one two) 12:01:40 see, no parenthesis. 12:01:46 Hrm? 12:02:22 See http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/6ec4dab4a8d57f6e 12:02:30 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/3050088218d355e5 12:03:17 OK lets ignore the unicode characters involved 12:03:33 parentheses are just strutured editor commands. C-h k ( gives paredit-open-round and C-h k ) gives paredit-close-round. 12:03:37 My point is that currently you have to think and be aware of the treeshaped structure, to easily see the distinction between the bindings and the body. 12:03:43 Yes. 12:03:58 But my point is that's easy. let bindings . body 12:04:08 The presence of an "in" token would immediately give a visual divider, so you can see LHS is bindings and RHS is body 12:04:27 You only have two things you don't need a divider. 12:04:39 But both the bindings and the body might contain lots of things 12:05:03 It doesn't matter. the structural editor shows you clearly the difference. 12:05:06 Certainly when written in a flat line, I sometimes find them hard to see where the gap is 12:05:09 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:05:19 And most code on IRC tends to be written in a flat list 12:06:02 Of course, you have to copy-and-paste it in a scheme buffer and insert the newlines. 12:06:08 Otherwise use http://paste.lisp.org/ 12:07:19 You don't design a programming language optimizing it for irc! 12:22:43 LeoNerd: i agree that making explicit syntax cues makes code easier to read 12:23:20 there's a lot that's implicit in lisp/scheme code that doesn't need to be -- except for ease of parsing 12:24:08 that places a burden of memorizing and recognizing what each element of a given list means on the user 12:24:26 -!- bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:24:42 adhering to proper indentation conventions can help a bit with this 12:25:07 then, if the user is still confused, he could refer to the documentation 12:25:07 that said, sexp is a file format. You could patch emacs to insert visual cues such as " in " as overlays, but not in the actual data structure. Now when writing macros you will have strange bugs where the first expression of the bodies is not processed anymore... 12:25:54 right.. the lack of extra syntax has obvious benefits that are very well known in the lisp/scheme community 12:25:58 (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) in (+ one two)) 12:27:06 on the other hand, that could be done without useing extra syntax 12:27:08 like so: 12:27:20 (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (in (+ one two))) 12:27:33 No. See above. 12:27:51 which part above? 12:27:55 (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) in (+ one two)) 12:28:03 (42 (+ one two)) is invalid. 12:28:18 oops.. forgot the first in 12:28:40 well, if the user redefines "let", he'd also have a problem 12:30:08 the programmer has a problem and redefines let. now he has two problems. 12:30:15 exactly 12:30:22 (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (in (+ one two))) 12:30:27 is no worse than: 12:30:31 (define let 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (in (+ one two))) 12:30:55 who suggested the in thing? 12:31:00 how about just using `begin' 12:31:02 LeoNerd 12:31:09 LeoNerd: what's the DEAL 12:31:11 :-) 12:31:24 hypnocat: (define in 42) (in whatever) CANNOT WORK! 12:31:41 DerGuteMoritz: he wants a mnemonic cue to indicate what the let bindings apply to 12:31:43 hypnocat: (define in 42) (begin 42 in 42) works! 12:32:00 I see 12:32:46 pjb: i'm not sure what your point is there... (define let 42) (let whatever) won't work either 12:33:04 a special syntax highlighting in your editor of choice would be a better way, and who cares about code pasted in irc. Ask in #python how that works for them :p 12:33:14 hypnocat: my point is that my (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) in (+ one two)) works perfectly well, while yours (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) (in (+ one two))) fails. 12:33:20 haha, poor pythonistas 12:33:38 indentation works good enough for me 12:33:51 some people use square brackets in binding forms 12:33:53 -!- pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-4dbedfc7.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 12:33:55 I also use rainbow colors for parentheses 12:33:57 LeoNerd: maybe that's an option? 12:33:59 pjb: yes, it failed, because i didn't notice the (define in 42).. however, my point is that redefining "let" can be done just as easily as redefining "in", with just as bad (or even worse) results 12:34:00 yeah me too 12:34:05 pygospa [~Pygosceli@kiel-5f77be14.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 12:34:06 except not rainbow colored 12:34:19 hypnocat: no, it failed because you wrote (in (+ one two)) instead of in (+ one two) ! 12:34:28 hypnocat: (define in 42) (in whatever) CANNOT WORK! 12:34:29 hypnocat: (define in 42) (begin 42 in 42) works! 12:34:33 in: a step towards cobol 12:34:39 exactly. 12:34:41 heh 12:34:48 next he's going to suggest a suffix (where ...) form 12:35:25 and then (if (...) (then ...) (else ...)) 12:35:45 10: (goto 10) 12:35:48 No, like Franz's if*: (if* ... then ... else ...) 12:36:26 oh no! what is someone redefines "then"?! 12:36:46 -!- djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-difsknmosjpbkkfy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:53 It works, because if* parses it and elimitates it. 12:36:59 so could let 12:36:59 djcb [user@nat/nokia/x-nrzzzapobsvzhznv] has joined #scheme 12:38:34 Splasher [~splasher@luz95-1-88-174-81-134.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:38:57 Hello everyone 12:40:56 pjb: note that Scheme's cond else can be rebound 12:41:37 rudybot: (define else #f) 12:41:38 pjb: your r5rs sandbox is ready 12:41:38 pjb: Done. 12:41:40 rudybot: (cond (else 42)) 12:41:41 pjb: Done. 12:41:44 there you go 12:42:02 for reasons not entirely clear to me! 12:42:03 It's not cond else that's bound here. 12:42:13 what else? 12:42:13 hehe 12:42:27 That's because cond is syntax which parses its clauses. It doesn't evaluate any variable named else. 12:42:42 rudybot: (define else1 #f) 12:42:43 pjb: Done. 12:42:46 rudybot: (cond (else1 42)) 12:42:47 pjb: Done. 12:42:48 sure 12:42:59 but I'd expect the else branch to be a special-case 12:43:01 for some reason! 12:43:07 It is a special-case. 12:43:12 rudybot: (define else #t) 12:43:12 pjb: Done. 12:43:16 rudybot: (cond (else 42)) 12:43:16 pjb: ; Value: 42 12:43:29 Well, it is not here. I would have expected it to be special. 12:43:54 well, sure, you can also refer to `else' without it being defined 12:44:11 that is a special case 12:44:24 but additionally being able to redefine it is odd! 12:46:41 Yes, it's strange. It would require special processing from the scheme implementation... 12:47:31 yep, and AFAIR that's what at least R5RS mandates 12:50:39 kpal [~kpal@janus-nat-128-240-225-120.ncl.ac.uk] has joined #scheme 12:52:19 (define in 42) (let ((one 1) (two 2)) in (+ one two)) <== compare (define else 42) (cond .... (else ...)) oops 12:52:21 Same breakage 12:52:41 No, in the case of the let it works perfectly. 12:52:48 rudybot: (define in 42) 12:52:48 pjb: Done. 12:52:50 rudybot: (let ((one 1) (two 2)) in (+ one two)) 12:52:50 pjb: ; Value: 3 12:53:26 because in the case of the let, in is nothing special. 12:53:38 I was thinking of defining a new syntax. 12:53:50 Make "in" special to it the same way that "else" is special to "cond" 12:53:58 My point is that you don't need, you only need to define a variable named in and you can use the usual let. 12:54:38 I wanted to remove one level of parens as well, though 12:54:45 (leo-let (one 1) (two 2) in (+ one two)) 12:55:31 that looks like CL loop 12:55:33 :-) 12:55:52 LeoNerd: how about clojure's (let [x 1 y 2] ...) 12:56:15 Well, that then requires defining an entirely new set of parens.. 12:56:22 Whereas mine already can be trivially done with a macro :) 12:56:31 you can also use normal parens 12:56:31 Well, lisp syntax is the most evolved one. You can always make it worse, as clojure is proof. 12:56:37 heh 13:00:20 well, that's not far from (let [(x 1) (y 2)] (+ x y)) ? 13:00:41 Ya.. the main point of my form was that "in" keyword there.. it helps guide the eye 13:01:49 LeoNerd: you can use (let ((x 1) (y 2)) #;in (+ x y)) 13:02:09 Yes but the compiler won't help me if I get it wrong :P 13:02:31 heh 13:02:47 define a reader macro 13:02:57 .. or I could just write a real macro :) 13:03:01 This is trivial, really... 13:03:08 My point was more: do people think that would be nice? 13:03:31 No. 13:03:52 I think it would just introduce typing overhead 13:04:09 I find regular let forms easy to follow 13:04:10 "in" vs two extra parens? 13:04:21 and I don't mind the parens 13:04:36 actually the help guide the eye, too 13:09:13 -!- djcb [user@nat/nokia/x-nrzzzapobsvzhznv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:10:55 -!- antono [~antono@178.121.55.220] has left #scheme 13:13:17 adding this will just open up another can of worms for the little benefit it provides 13:14:12 You can "always" use srfi-49 13:14:14 *mario-goulart* hides 13:14:43 Eh 13:14:47 I didn't want Python :P 13:14:59 I just wanted something that feels more like, e.g. ML's let a = b in c 13:15:26 LeoNerd: then just use ML. After all, ML is written in lisp (originally). 13:22:56 -!- hypnocat [~hypnocat@unaffiliated/hypnocat] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:30:18 jrslepak [~jrslepak@64.134.70.42] has joined #scheme 13:37:34 djcb [djcb@nat/nokia/x-vgvsmauccunemdbo] has joined #scheme 13:40:24 ASau```` [~user@95-24-54-209.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 13:40:28 12:00:30 I know it's simpler, it's jsut the bindings and body start to get lost in an undifferentiated sea of parens <-- lol, use a real editor ;-) 13:40:55 cky: lol, print code on paper and then try to read it 13:41:12 LeoNerd: I think you missed my point. 13:41:20 And I think you missed mine :) 13:41:24 LeoNerd: A real editor would encourage the right indentation to make the bindings list stand out. 13:41:42 LeoNerd: In Scheme programming, the right indentation is everything. 13:41:44 If you have to rely on editor features in order to write your code, you might as well be writing Java in Eclipse 13:41:52 I beg to differ. 13:42:00 What editor do you write your Scheme code with? I use Paredit. 13:42:18 Vim, same editor I write C, Perl, HTML, nroff,... 13:42:23 Wrong answer. 13:42:59 Don't get me wrong. I'm a vi user. I use vi for everything, except Java (=> Eclipse) or Lisp and Scheme (=> Paredit). 13:44:26 I just tend to find that anything that relies solely on position for implicit context gets hard to read.. requires lots more context in my head to parse it 13:44:33 I don't like counting things 13:44:41 You don't have to count things. 13:44:50 You just have to spot indentation. Most programmers are very good at this. 13:45:06 With Paredit, you _definitely_ do not have to count parens. 13:45:10 -!- ASau``` [~user@93-80-199-24.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:45:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:46:18 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 13:47:36 .oO(...I wonder if all the S-expression-haters out there are vi/nano/notepad users who are too stubborn to use the right tool for the job....) 13:48:05 Oh it's not that I dislike it 13:48:39 It's just this one case in particular that I feel would be improved by adding another literal, similar to the literal 'else' added by 'cond' or 'case' 13:48:50 surely 'else' in cond isn't required, that could have been #f 13:48:57 Not true. 13:49:01 Surely 'else' in case isn't required, that could have been '() 13:49:09 Not true, either. :-) 13:49:27 Hmm... well, something similar anyway.. 13:50:40 LeoNerd: The "else" clause can only be at the bottom; it can't be somewhere in the middle. 13:50:51 With using #t (which is how you do it in CL), you can put that anywhere. 13:51:05 Mhmm 13:51:08 (Well, in CL you use T; same idea.) 13:51:56 LeoNerd: you cannot just use #f: (define val #f) (cond ((not val) 0) (else 1)) 13:53:20 #f in scheme has the nice property that it is the only false boolean value 13:53:32 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:58:26 Mhm 14:01:57 -!- dous_ [~dous@210.24.42.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04:42 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:06:38 -!- homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-237.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:08:00 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-210-237.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:11:27 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:10 Is there a better way to make functional structs in r5rs? http://paste.lisp.org/display/127336 14:17:51 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-165-157.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:22:00 karswell [~coat@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:22:33 Looks reasonable to me, though that does make them immutable 14:22:45 Perhaps that was the intent? 14:24:08 hardcore schemers code in notepad 14:25:12 I can code Scheme pretty much in 'plain text', after 1-2 of having no editor for it (in Visual Studio), then I wrote a simple one :) 14:25:20 1-2 years 14:25:31 count them parenthesis! 14:25:57 it gets easy though if you follow some simple indenting rules 14:26:11 err indentation 14:26:51 just follow the simple rules... 14:26:56 LeoNerd: yes, I want them to be immutable 14:27:54 Ah OK.. then that looks fine 14:28:12 LeoNerd: someone else suggested using vectors, but that seems much harder to implement as a macro 14:28:41 There's many possibilities 14:32:00 Being able to change multiple values at once without having to nest (like ((abc 'a 1) 'b 2) would be nice too, but impossible as far as I can tell. 14:32:09 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.222.252] has joined #scheme 14:33:32 (abc ('a 1) ('b 2)) 14:33:32 ? 14:35:56 I meant, without calling the constructor twice 14:41:56 -!- ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:42:27 ToxicFrog [~ToxicFrog@24-246-40-169.cable.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 14:57:07 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.222.252] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:05:21 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:06:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.9.30] has joined #scheme 15:06:46 -!- attila_lendvai [~attila_le@178.89.9.30] has quit [Changing host] 15:06:46 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 15:12:09 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 15:25:36 -!- hkBst 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visit bitxikuesta.com 11:31:49 visit bitxikuesta.com 11:31:53 visit bitxikuesta.com 11:32:25 visit bitxikuesta.com 11:32:38 ssssht 11:32:51 visit bitxikuesta.com 11:32:55 visit bitxikuesta.com 11:34:43 joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has joined #scheme 11:35:50 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:35:59 -!- bitxisurf [~bitxisurf@app18.chatmosphere.org] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:10 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 11:36:56 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 11:38:15 ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has joined #scheme 11:46:49 -!- mikecsh [~mikecsh@113.28.74.33] has quit [Quit: mikecsh] 12:07:46 -!- joast [~rick@76.178.187.164] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:09:01 -!- rageous [~Adium@75-168-33-49.mpls.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:12:03 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:13:47 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 12:23:48 -!- kvda [~kvda@124-169-23-5.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Quit: x___x] 12:24:51 -!- ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has quit [Quit: brb] 12:26:01 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@87.253.189.132] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 12:27:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@3ad50e34.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 12:29:25 ecraven [~nex@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 12:32:40 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:33:07 airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 12:33:52 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 12:35:35 preflex: help 12:35:36 try 'help help' or see 'list' for available commands 12:35:48 preflex: list 12:35:48 Botsnack: [botsnack]; Cdecl: [cdecl]; 8ball: [8ball]; Factoid: [+, -, ., ?, delete, get, store]; Help: [help, list]; Karma: [++, --, karma, karmabot, karmatop]; Nickometer: [nickometer]; Nickr: [nickr]; PlokiRE: [re]; Seen: [seen]; Sixst: [6st]; Tell: [ask, clear-messages, messages, tell]; Rot13: [rot13]; Quote: [be, quote, remember]; WCalc: [calc, wcalc]; Version: [version]; XSeen: [xseen]; 12:35:49 ZCode: [zdec, zenc] 12:36:15 nwr [52d1a364@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.209.163.100] has joined #scheme 12:38:13 http://pastie.org/3288536 <== a question.. mostly in the form of some code 12:40:19 joast [~rick@76.178.184.101] has joined #scheme 12:46:22 LeoNerd: you can use let-syntax 12:47:01 Cool.. can you show me how then? I've been prodding and poking around at let-syntax for ages now and not really got anywhere at working it out, nor having anyone explain how 12:47:37 LeoNerd: how about an example use from some of my code? 12:47:56 Sure 12:48:47 jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 12:49:18 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 12:49:48 LeoNerd: http://paste.lisp.org/display/127409 12:50:40 Ahh I see... 12:50:53 So the let-syntax sits there... 12:52:00 Hmmmmm.... So currently in my implementation the entire 'syntax-rules' is a special form 12:52:20 So I guess I'd have to evaluate the let-syntax from inside a template... 12:53:23 'any way I can hide the do-step?' yes, implement modules :) 12:55:49 -!- nwr [52d1a364@gateway/web/freenode/ip.82.209.163.100] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:57:24 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 12:59:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:04:06 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 13:07:46 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:09:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:12:32 Well, I'm off for lunch in a moment, but perhaps when I get back someone can talk me through theabove in a little more detail..? 13:21:16 -!- confab [~win7@c-71-193-9-153.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:28:55 bytbox [~s@129.2.129.228] has joined #scheme 13:30:59 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:31:44 dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 13:33:25 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 13:34:25 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:37:40 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:38:09 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 13:39:37 -!- Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:44:38 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:44:48 ijp` [~user@host86-182-157-0.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 13:46:23 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 13:46:46 -!- ijp [~user@host86-182-157-0.range86-182.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:47:06 Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 13:47:12 -!- GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:49:44 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 13:54:30 GoKhlaYeh [~GoKhlaYeh@135.51.68.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #scheme 14:07:22 -!- airolson [~airolson@CPE00222d55a738-CM00222d55a735.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 14:07:30 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:07:33 dous [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 14:07:37 -!- dous [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] 14:07:37 dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has joined #scheme 14:09:10 -!- dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:10:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:11:24 dous_ [~dous@cm171.sigma67.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 14:14:04 -!- dous [~dous@unaffiliated/dous] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 14:14:54 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-175-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:15:31 ticking [~janpaulbu@tmo-110-93.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #scheme 14:15:34 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:16:15 masm [~masm@bl19-175-203.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 14:17:28 eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:17:36 -!- eno [~eno@adsl-70-137-133-209.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:17:37 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 14:19:27 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-213-254.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 14:27:53 EmmanuelOga [~emmanuel@host83.190-31-137.telecom.net.ar] has joined #scheme 14:28:14 homie` [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-154-182.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:30:27 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-143-123.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:46:30 -!- langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has left #scheme 14:47:22 langmartin [~user@host-68-169-155-216.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:50:37 leppie++ 14:50:49 Re modules for hiding names. 14:51:15 Well.. I know I -could- do it with define-values 14:51:19 But I don't have define-values yet: ) 14:51:31 ...how would define-values help you hide names? 14:52:09 (define-values (memq memv member) (let ((member-helper .....) values (lambda ...) ....)) 14:52:33 er.. with more ()s 14:53:09 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-38-111.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 14:53:35 Hahahahahaha. 14:53:35 I can hide a helper for -one- function, by just let-binding it, and yielding a lambda out of the let that gets define'd as the public name. But to hide one shared by three functions requires define-values, so I can values yield the three lambdas 14:53:39 Fair enough. 14:53:54 .oO( Or I play copypasta but that is laaaaaame ) 14:53:58 Hiding-by-closures is what I call "hard" hiding. Hiding-by-modules is what I call "soft" hiding. 14:53:59 realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.179] has joined #scheme 14:54:28 In Guile, for example (and probably other implementations too), you can actually grab names from other modules even if they're not exported. This can be useful sometimes. 14:54:47 Whereas names that are "hard" hidden can't be grabbed in that way. 14:54:53 *LeoNerd* nod 14:54:56 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 14:55:46 You can still do hard-hiding without define-values, but. :-P 14:55:48 e.g., 14:55:59 (define vtable (let (...) (vector ...))) 14:56:08 (define memq (vector-ref vtable 0)) 14:56:16 (define memv (vector-ref vtable 1)) 14:56:18 etc. 14:56:27 Hrm.. yes.. but then vtable is toplevel-defined, yes? 14:56:41 Yes, but if you're using modules, you don't export vtable. 14:56:47 You only export the memq, memv, etc. 14:57:06 Ah. I have no idea what a "module" is... I'm working to R5 currently... 14:57:10 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:57:46 Modules is one of the primary mandatory features of R6RS and R7RS. :-) 14:58:07 It's been decided that modules are an essential feature of Scheme (and I agree). 14:58:35 Mhmm 14:58:42 Well, when I've finished with R5 I'll get onto it I'm sure 14:58:53 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:00:21 Hahaha. 15:00:55 You really should at least implement modules from either R6RS or R7RS, even if you don't implement other parts of those specifications. 15:01:04 They will make your life much better. 15:02:57 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@69.169.141.110.provo.static.broadweavenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:06:23 tuubow [~adityavit@c-69-136-105-164.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:21 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:08:50 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:11:37 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 15:12:59 attila_lendvai [~attila_le@unaffiliated/attila-lendvai/x-3126965] has joined #scheme 15:14:45 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-50.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:14:59 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-175-50.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:22:06 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 15:24:16 realitygrill_ [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 15:25:17 -!- ticking [~janpaulbu@tmo-110-93.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 15:26:52 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@76.226.208.179] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 15:26:52 -!- realitygrill_ is now known as realitygrill 15:31:05 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ccorn] 15:31:13 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:33:28 -!- eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:35:03 eno [~eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 15:35:08 teurastaja [~chatzilla@modemcable168.103-58-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 15:35:32 im having trouble understanding how variant-case works 15:35:42 ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 15:36:03 ive seen how clean eval can be implemented with variant-case 15:36:37 ive also seen how messy (or cleanly) variant-case can be defined 15:37:24 jewel [~jewel@196-215-88-26.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:37:37 basically, if syntax-case is used, its messy. if syntax-rules is used, it gets cleaner 15:38:15 so... anyone watching? 15:39:12 -!- ccorn [~ccorn@dhcp-077-249-189-185.chello.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 15:39:46 I'm watching, but I'm not aware of variant-case so I can't comment 15:42:55 -!- TheRealPygo is now known as pygospa 15:45:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-139-34.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:48:10 I quite like syntax-case myself. 15:49:58 (define-syntax variant-case 15:49:58 (syntax-rules (else) 15:49:58 [(variant-case obj) (error 'variant-case "all cases exhausted" obj)] 15:49:58 [(variant-case obj (else body ...)) (begin body ...)] 15:49:58 [(variant-case obj (aggregate-switch (var ...) body ...) rest ...) 15:49:58 ((aggregate-switch (lambda (var ...) body ...) 15:49:58 (lambda (obj) (variant-case obj rest ...))) 15:49:58 obj)])) 15:50:10 wth is aggregate-switch? 15:50:43 i understand everything except with the last case