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Minsky's ACM article? 01:45:37 If you mean how do I know I'm there, someone told me. If you mean why was I written up, it's my R7RS talk. 01:45:47 http://developers.slashdot.org/story/11/10/04/1942209/r7rs-scheme-progress-report 01:45:48 http://tinyurl.com/3rdvj46 01:47:33 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-249-112.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 01:49:45 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:52:12 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:54:34 woonie [~woonie@sheares0014.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 01:57:30 jcowan: ah yes 02:04:31 arcfide [1000@c-69-136-7-94.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 02:13:10 jcowan: I have to say I think the /. summary is excellent. 02:13:22 Mmm. 02:13:53 -!- teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 02:14:06 -!- frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 02:15:53 teiresias [~teiresias@archlinux/trusteduser/teiresias] has joined #scheme 02:21:14 drdo [~drdo@31.88.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 02:23:48 Damn, I'm looking forward to R7RS; I feel like the members have redeemed Schemedom from that reducible trollwerk, that illegitimate Racket-fork, R6RS. 02:24:40 r7rs does look pretty exciting 02:25:31 drdo` [~drdo@2002:2ebd:f326:b:62eb:69ff:fe54:45bc] has joined #scheme 02:26:49 assuming people actually implement it 02:27:03 Slashdot contends that "R7RS could not have happened without the lessons of R6RS." Maybe. I'll practice a suspension-of-skepticism there; but once R7RS is implemented by e.g. Chicken, I won't care whether it had an indirect R6RS-provenance. 02:27:05 -!- drdo [~drdo@31.88.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:27:26 turbofail: Aye, that's the rub. My intuition says they will. 02:27:33 klutometis: Some of the good ideas in r6rs which your highly bogus trolling attempt examplifies are in r7rs. Some other good ideas are not in, at the cost of ... sticking to the `syntax-rules' shackles. 02:28:56 There will surely be several implementations of R7RS-small. 02:29:43 Chibi, Chicken, Guile 02:30:36 drdo`` [~drdo@38.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 02:30:39 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:31:03 -!- drdo` [~drdo@2002:2ebd:f326:b:62eb:69ff:fe54:45bc] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:31:18 eli: Indeed; that's also the generous hypothesis of the Slashdot piece. foof mentioned, I believe, that the import syntax (e.g. `(srfi 8)') is at least inspired by R6RS. Then there's `guard' and Unicode. 02:31:39 R7RS-small is very close to being a superset of R6RS (rnrs base). 02:31:46 There may be more when R7RS-large is done. 02:32:09 I have proposed adding the six or so procedures in R6RS base that R7RS-small lacks. 02:32:45 it was never entirely clear to me what the problem with R6RS was 02:33:04 IMO it was that it was hard to extend R5RS implementations to do R6RS as well. 02:33:05 klutometis: I have no idea what slashdot thing you're talking about -- but what I'm saying is that the plt-bashing that was so widespread in certain circles turned out even more bogus than it is, given that the main point -- modules -- was eventually used. 02:34:05 And indeed, this is something that wasn't brought up recently, until your "illegitimate Racket-fork" remark, to which I won't attach any properly counter-inflaming adjectives. 02:35:03 JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-72-95-251-96.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:35:06 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 02:35:33 eli: There are technical merits to your hypothesis, corroborated indeed by jcowan; nevertheless, the R7RS working groups have achieved sympathy, good will and political credit that the previous ones did not. 02:35:51 *eli* LOLs 02:36:15 Heh. 02:38:47 -!- gffa [~gffa@unaffiliated/gffa] has quit [Quit: sleep] 02:38:58 Well, some people's s. g.w. & p. c. 02:45:52 yours_truly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 02:46:39 -!- Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:47:04 jcowan: You're right; and my observation might suffer from selection bias, since I tend to traffic in Chicken circles. 02:47:38 Nevertheless; there seems to be an absence of controversy, antipathy and alienation that characterized the last process. 02:47:47 -!- JoelMcCracken [~user@pool-72-95-251-96.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:48:02 -!- drdo`` [~drdo@38.243.189.46.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:48:28 Well, so far only one person is complaining, but there may be more later. 02:48:48 -!- yours_truly [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Client Quit] 02:53:31 Nisstyre [~yours@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 02:56:01 dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:56:21 rudybot: (define (is-it? something) (equal? 'apathy something)) 02:56:23 eli: your sandbox is ready 02:56:23 eli: Done. 02:56:30 rudybot: give klutometis is-it? 02:56:30 klutometis: eli has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 02:56:44 klutometis: Apply on terms of your choice. 02:57:13 rudybot: (equal? 'apathy 'cheesesteak) 02:57:14 *offby1: your sandbox is ready 02:57:14 *offby1: ; Value: #f 02:57:18 thank God 02:58:45 eli: Heh; maybe you're right. Maybe the activation energy required to fire neurons is too high this time around; but isn't that because you guys squandered the relatively low threshold of activation last time around? 02:59:14 klutometis: "you guys"? 02:59:56 I mean: R5RS was "golden" (in Felleisen's sense of "perfect"); R6RS jumped the shark; and R7RS is tardy? 03:00:27 No, r5rs was far, *far* from "golden". 03:00:32 s/was/is/ 03:00:40 eli: The PLT-clique and assorted stragglers. 03:00:59 eli: I agree. 03:01:20 klutometis: So Matthew is a clique now? 03:01:26 Square quotes there to mock Matthias. 03:02:01 I'll tell him, so he'll know to book more than one seat next time he goes on a plane. 03:02:35 The mocking is out of place, BTW, if anything, r7rs demonstrates -- *exactly* -- why r6rs is perfect. 03:06:09 eli: Mocking aside (sorry about that); I seem to recall a defection around the time R6RS was ratified: there were crickets left; there was PLT; and there were assorted stragglers. Abelson and Sussman surely GTFO'd. And there was a Soviet style: "If you vote NO, justify yourself." 03:07:07 Anyway; sorry about this, Eli. This horse has been beaten. I'm excited for R7RS. Bashing R6RS is so 2007. 03:08:20 I'll refrain from baiting my troll. 03:09:02 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:11:58 klutometis: some of the defection was illusionary, some was your bad memory (the bunch of people who are not in plt, and I guess they'd like to think of themselves as non-crickets), 03:12:05 I'll refrain from expressing opinions on the opinions of A&S, 03:12:53 and that "soviet style" is something that I have no idea where it originated, but it makes perfect sense given that the document itself is the result of plenty of debating why it is good, so explanations should be given by people who think that it shouldn't be ratified. I don't know how the r7rs process will go, but it still makes sense for it as it did for r6rs. 03:14:58 ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:15:58 -!- turbofail [~user@c-107-3-149-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:16:07 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:16:27 -!- ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:19:04 ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:19:05 -!- fds [~frankie@fsf/member/fds] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 03:20:43 ohwow [~oh@www.nig.gs] has joined #scheme 03:20:43 eli: Yeah, there might be some sort of memory bias at work here: e.g. choice-supportive, egocentric, or even illusion-of-truth (); Racket has more Reddit- and HN-mind-share; and let's see what R7RS-adoption looks like. 03:21:03 fds [~frankie@ajax.webvictim.net] has joined #scheme 03:22:21 For the record, R6RS was hardly a PLT only effort and it is hardly just stragglers that adopted it. 03:23:25 I'm going to insist that either nobody has to give a rationale, or that everyone does. 03:23:35 arcfide: Chez and Iron, sure; but then Ikarus had to disappear. Ysilon? 03:23:38 Insisting that only one side provide a rationale biases the vote. 03:23:41 jcowan: Thank you. 03:24:19 Racket, Chez, Larceny; Ikarus/Vicare, Ypsilon, IronScheme, Mosh. 03:24:31 "Currently Ypsilon development has been suspended due to the development of our new pinball title MAD DAEDALUS." Heh. 03:24:34 Yeah. 03:25:43 That's the R5RS/R6RS and R6RS-only Schemes 03:29:21 Searching HN, I find only about 10% of the hits for "scheme" also mention "racket" or "plt" 03:30:02 klutometis: I don't understand your reference to crickets. 03:30:33 klutometis: The fact that larceny has r6rs is one reason that I used "illusionary" above. 03:34:33 And the R5RS systems in my suite are Gauche, MIT, Gambit, Chicken, Bigloo, Scheme48/scsh, Guile, Kawa, SISC, Chibi, SCM, STklos, KSi, SigScheme. 03:35:48 R4RS systems: Scheme 9, Scheme 7, Elk, UMB, VX. 03:35:54 R3RS systems: Oaklisp. 03:36:11 jcowan: Hmm; and in r/programming, only 4% of the articles that mention Scheme mention Racket. (Could it be that Racket and Scheme have already diverged?) 03:36:30 You have to check for both "Racket" and "PLT" for a decent measure. 03:36:51 Of course, there are false hits, like "Hacker News | Was whole economy a Ponzi scheme?" 03:36:55 -!- bpalmer [user@nat/google/x-cweoddsfxvhhttvl] has left #scheme 03:37:19 No, "Racket" is very rarely mentioned with "PLT", other than a few scheme ancients who won't accept the name change. 03:37:37 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 03:38:13 "PLT" was good enough for my granddaddy 03:38:43 -!- ampersandbox [~chatzilla@adsl-99-35-227-202.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:38:54 eli: i think jcowan means in order to capture older documents pre-change. 03:38:58 "Crickets" in the sense of: "no audience." Some people (take Felix Winkelmann, for example) had checked out. 03:39:10 *jcowan* nods. 03:39:12 Thanks. 03:39:33 When looking at a news site, however, you are looking at its whole archive, so you have to look at every name that's been used in the past. 03:41:56 qu1j0t3: It was a reference to klutometis bringing up Racket & Reddit 03:42:35 jcowan: Looking up both "Racket" and "PLT" is therefore a good way to get almost nothing. 03:42:48 Fortunately, I knew enough to look them up separately. 03:43:31 134 hits (per Bing) for [scheme racket] and [scheme plt] combined (may be some dupes there), 119 hits for Chicken, trivial numbers for the other Schemes I've tried so far 03:45:42 "Scheme" & "Racket" is almost as bad. 03:47:13 eli: hm, i can't quite join those dots, but ok 03:47:28 30 for Gambit, 18 for Guile, 16 for Kawa, single digits for everything else 03:47:47 eli: jcowan didn't mean "Racket" and "PLT". he meant OR, in order to cope with the change. 03:48:00 *jcowan* appreciates the relay service. 03:48:30 qu1j0t3: To be precise, he used an ambiguous "both". 03:48:50 the inference wasn't difficult. 03:49:09 *eli* sighs 03:51:08 frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 03:52:08 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has left #scheme 03:52:22 -!- woonie [~woonie@sheares0014.pc.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:00:22 jonrafkind [~jon@12.233.52.10] has joined #scheme 04:03:45 So, when you call MAKE-VECTOR without an init argument, what gets used? 0, #f, (), and the unspecified object are what's currently used. 04:04:22 jcowan: surely, uninitialised memory is the right choice! 04:05:00 oh wait, this isn't ##c, oops. 04:05:10 Apparently not; none of the 26 Schemes do that, though it is a possibility. 04:07:00 jcowan, are you publishing the results of these implementation surveys anywhere? or informal notes? 04:07:32 *aspect* has an idle curosity in implementation differences 04:07:38 Sometimes in email, sometimes on the R7RS wiki. 04:07:56 oaklisp doesn't have make-vector and UMB crashes. 04:08:01 :) 04:08:06 which makes 28 altogether. 04:09:14 where is the wiki? 04:10:10 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@cpe-98-14-92-234.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: dnolen] 04:11:00 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki 04:11:28 e.g. http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/Zero 04:11:36 woonie [~woonie@sheares0014.pc.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 04:11:56 qu1j0t3: In cannot use "uninitialized memory" in any GCed language. 04:12:01 s/In/You/ 04:12:58 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-0-241-232.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:13:49 kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-191-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 04:15:03 -!- jcowan [~John@cpe-98-14-172-212.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 04:26:14 -!- bgs100 [~ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:30:06 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:32:17 eli: I was being facetious. 04:33:42 -!- copumpkin 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07:16:56 -!- fngraph [~fngraph@24-205-80-209.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:18:52 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:23:52 masm [~masm@bl15-131-200.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 07:33:39 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:34:30 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:39 ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has joined #scheme 07:36:41 -!- mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: mithos28] 07:41:14 ccorn [~ccorn@84-53-64-50.adsl.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 07:46:39 -!- cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:50:15 woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has joined #scheme 07:53:17 -!- jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:58:28 soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 07:59:51 eli: What do you mean "... sticking to the `syntax-rules' shackles?" 08:01:59 cmatei [~cmatei@95.76.22.68] has joined #scheme 08:11:26 foof: Having only `syntax-rules' as macro system is something that I learned to detest. 08:11:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-216.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:12:29 It promotes superficially cute toys as Oleg's things and JRM's tutorial, but actually programming with just that, when you have a real language that you could be using, is a horrible idea. 08:13:04 (And having no procedural macro system in the core ensures that `syntax-rules' will continue to rule.) 08:17:33 Oh, I thought you were talking about the semantics of `...' :) 08:18:05 Yes indeed, syntax-rules is limited, which is why the large language will have at least one procedure macro system. 08:18:23 -!- woonie [~woonie@nusnet-228-27.dynip.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 08:20:35 i thought being limited is one of the main points of syntax-rules macros, along with improved personal hygiene 08:21:54 you get to solve 90% of macro problems easily, have some regex-style support and encourage people in the process to make macros that aren't horribly incompatible with the rest of the syntax 08:22:10 oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 08:26:11 foof: ATM, "the large language" is something that nobody cares much about, and even if/when they do, not having it in the *small* one is a severe mistake that ensures the happy future of `syntax-rules', and the sad future of its users. It essentially makes the small language a crippled shadow of what I'd consider "a scheme". 08:26:32 aoh: No, "90%" is an exaggeration of what you get from it. 08:26:39 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-166-111.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 08:28:20 eli, what kind of issues do you run into in practice? 08:29:24 aoh: Standard exercise: implement `let'. 08:29:27 -!- soveran [~soveran@juv34-7-78-249-50-4.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:29:35 rudybot: (let ([1 2]) 3) 08:29:35 eli: error: eval:1:7: let: bad syntax (not an identifier) at: 1 in: (let ((1 2)) 3) 08:29:43 aoh: Make it throw that error. 08:30:00 (But that's just one example of many.) 08:31:22 you mean mapping errors in expanded form to those in the original source? that is a problem, but not really related to lack of expressive power. 08:32:06 Sure it is. 08:32:30 Just try to imagine how you'd resolve that, and you'll quickly conclude that you need new forms to do so. 08:32:50 But if you want more, just read through any reasonably sophisticated macro use. 08:33:13 eli, i don't do that so might be off, but can't you track the terms X -> X', see which one is in the error and map those back like a backtrace? 08:33:53 Start with JRM's tutorial, read through it, and if somewhere around the middle you don't find yourself wondering "why do I need to learn all of this" then either something is wrong with you, or you're under the spell of the limited syntax-rules-world-view. 08:33:57 what i've hoped is a way to recurse in macros easily so you don't have to emulate a state machine or use other hacks 08:34:50 aoh: Re the `let' error -- it's not just making it start with "let:", there's also the actual error later on. 08:35:20 aoh: Yes, programming with a state machine is exactly a symptom of the `syntax-rules' disease. 08:35:54 eli, "Syntax-rules Primer for the Merely Eccentric"? 08:36:09 will read :) 08:36:28 rudybot: (let ((a 1) (a 2)) a) 08:36:28 aoh: your sandbox is ready 08:36:28 aoh: error: eval:1:13: let: duplicate identifier at: a in: (let ((a 1) (a 2)) a) 08:37:27 i still think you could just track where the (lambda (a a) a) variables come from and rewrite the error as it comes, but would have to try in practice to see how it works... 08:37:34 aoh: yes, that tutorial -- it guides you all the way up to a lambda-calculus-like language, but the insanity is that it's all done via patternmatching. 08:37:41 And yes, that's another error. 08:37:57 Here's another: (case [else 1] [(x) 2]) 08:38:03 rudybot: (case [else 1] [(x) 2]) [] 08:38:03 eli: without the parens, it's not in else anymore. 08:38:10 rudybot: (case [else 1] [(x) 2]) 08:38:10 eli: error: eval:1:6: else: not allowed as an expression in: (else 1) 08:38:22 Bah, but example. 08:38:36 rudybot: (let 1) 08:38:36 eli: error: eval:1:0: let: bad syntax in: (let 1) 08:38:45 Here -- there are no bindings to track here. 08:39:42 that doesn't fit a pattern in let so the macro expander gives that without further need for tracking 08:41:24 Oh, right, it's the generic catchall. 08:41:29 Here's another attempt: 08:41:35 rudybot: (case x [else 1] [(x) 2]) 08:41:36 eli: error: eval:1:9: case: bad syntax (not a datum sequence) at: else in: (case x (else 1) ((x) 2)) 08:41:41 Thereyougo. 08:42:40 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 08:44:12 rudybot: (let-syntax ((foo (syntax-rules () ((foo a ... b) b)))) (foo 1 2 3)) 08:44:12 aoh: ; Value: 3 08:46:08 rudybot: (let-syntax ((foo (syntax-rules () ((foo a ... 1 b 0 ...) b)))) (foo 0 1 0 1 0 0 1)) 08:46:08 aoh: error: eval:1:53: syntax-rules: misplaced ellipses in pattern (follows other ellipses) at: ... in: (_ a ... 1 b 0 ...) 08:47:23 ah, multiple ellipsis arent supported at all? 08:47:54 No, and IIRC `a ... b' is a non-standard extension too. 08:49:05 It's standard in R[67]RS. 08:49:43 $ ol -e '(define-syntax foo (syntax-rules () ((foo a ... 1 b ...) (list a ... "then" b ...)))) (foo 2 2 1 0 0)' -> (2 2 then 0 0) 08:51:24 i wonder if r9rs will have (foo (var . varl){2,4} term?) etc :) 08:55:31 fngraph [~fngraph@24-205-80-209.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 08:55:31 -!- fngraph [~fngraph@24-205-80-209.dhcp.psdn.ca.charter.com] has left #scheme 08:58:46 aoh: I think that would be symptomatic of a macro with a very bad user interface. 09:05:37 foof, likely so, but you could also have cases like (cond (test value) ... (else def)?) which could leave def with an undefined value if it wasn't matched 09:06:11 (not trying to argue that would be a good idea though) 09:07:56 syntax-parse might be able to do that sort of thing 09:08:10 similarly for (if test then else?) 09:09:32 Yes, syntax-parse looks interesting. 09:09:34 wingo, what is that? 09:10:54 aoh: something from the plt folks 09:11:06 there is a paper on it by ryan culpepper irc 09:11:12 *iirc 09:12:01 wingo, "Growing a syntax"? 09:12:40 probably? it was recent, within the past couple years 09:13:13 found also "Taming Macros" which looks more like it 09:13:31 thanks for the pointer :) 09:14:02 np 09:15:38 northeastern seems to produce a ton of interesting pl stuff 09:17:23 indeed 09:17:42 rixed [~rixed@extranet.securactive.org] has joined #scheme 09:20:23 aoh: `syntax-parse' is a direct attempt to get "easy" macros that still address the big problems of `syntax-rules'. 09:21:11 aoh: And re stuff from NEU -- it is currently the main center of PLT & Larceny, and it also has Mitch Wand & Olin Shivers. 09:22:04 what is will clinger up to these days? 09:22:05 eli, didn't know Shivers is also there 09:22:27 aoh: Yes, he joined about two years ago. 09:23:13 wingo: I don't know... I tend to interact only with the local sub-sub-group of people... 09:24:16 eli, et tu? no wonder you seem to know about plt/racket :) 09:25:13 aoh: Yes. I can proudly say that I get a huge negative impact on the Scheme world whenever I play my music too loudly. 09:26:01 eli, try to keep the volume down until r7rs is out 09:26:49 Oh, the impact on r7rs is minimal... 09:28:41 Kajtek [~nope@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 09:30:56 -!- replore_ [~replore@203.152.213.161.static.zoot.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:39:25 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbed5ef.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 09:39:37 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfddf9.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 09:54:47 -!- kennyd_ [~kennyd@78-1-191-0.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Quit: bye] 09:57:01 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-81-144.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 10:01:42 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:02:07 pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-169-125.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 10:02:19 -!- pothos_ is now known as pothos 10:03:33 -!- Nisstyre 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joined #scheme 14:26:31 mapour [mapour@linux.utu.fi] has joined #scheme 14:29:39 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:30:48 wbooze [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-178-24.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:42:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@adsl-76-226-113-199.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 14:53:18 -!- hkBst [~quassel@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07:01 -!- ahinki [~chatzilla@212.99.10.150] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0/20110928060149]] 15:12:05 ccorn [~ccorn@g132123.upc-g.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 15:16:22 imphasing [~Alex@97-81-115-30.dhcp.gwnt.ga.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:18:16 Is there any particular reason why vector literals need to be quoted? 15:18:29 Doesn't seem like #(1 2 3) should be so bad to evaluate to the same vector 15:18:41 No, some implementations don't require it. 15:18:52 I think that it's being discussed in R7RS. 15:18:58 Oh, sweet.. I thought I was missing something important 15:19:40 If you are, then I am too. 15:21:49 pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:24:00 i believe that the original argument could have been that it's clear that '#(a b c) is a vector of symbols 15:24:04 imphasing: quoting a vector (or list) implies all the elements are literals too 15:24:19 whereas #(a b c) could be mistaken for a vector of the values of evaluating a, b, and c 15:24:37 -!- pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:24:39 then some fools might not think #((foo)) is possible 15:24:46 vector literals are a bit strange... immutable, too. 15:24:54 wingo: jinx :) 15:24:58 :) 15:26:01 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:11 it does feel silly to quote a #vu8(1 2 3) in R6RS though 15:28:03 it's not self-quoting? strange 15:28:33 What if you want to make a bytevector of some data you received from elsewhere? 15:28:40 #vu(r g b), for example 15:28:40 btw where has Riastradh been? On holidays? 15:29:10 sjamaan: expect (bytevector . args) I guess 15:29:21 leppie: doesn't exist 15:29:24 I know 15:29:31 list->bytevector i guess 15:30:00 hah, uint-list->bytevector it seems 15:30:06 at compile time it will likely be constant, so no real worries :) 15:30:12 I would think #(a b c) would always mean a vector of symbols, since the quote would be implicit, just left off 15:30:18 At least, how I'm doing it in my scheme 15:30:46 imphasing: R6RS allows syntax like #(fooo bar) inside macros 15:30:57 sjamaan: or, with-output-to-bytevector or something like that 15:30:58 Aaaahhhh 15:31:02 i dont know of other reasons 15:31:05 I'm targetting r5rs so I guess I'm good :) 15:31:41 imphasing: rather than be 'good', be consistent 15:31:46 imphasing: I dunno, #(a b c) might also just mean the same as `#(,a ,b ,c) 15:31:59 makes live easier for the compiler/interpreter 15:32:19 In CL, #(a b c) is a literal, and (vector a b c) is a constructed vector... 15:32:34 pjb: Right, that's how I would assume it would be done if you wanted the symbols evaluated 15:32:50 In my scheme-ish, at least 15:33:07 rvn_ [~rvn@77.107.164.131] has joined #scheme 15:33:22 leppie: It's consistantly interpreting #(a b c) as '#(a b c) 15:33:44 imphasing: ;p 15:33:56 I think #(a b c) as a shorthand for `#(,a ,b ,c) is more useful 15:34:12 sjamaan: isn't (vector a b c) easier to understand? 15:34:14 Less syntactic crap 15:34:42 rudybot: eval (define (bytevector . x) `#(,@x)) 15:34:43 leppie: your sandbox is ready 15:34:44 leppie: Done. 15:34:45 In CL, when we want `#(,a ,b ,c) we write `#(,a ,b ,c). It's clearer. 15:34:58 rudybot: eval (bytevector 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0) 15:34:58 leppie: ; Value: #(1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0) 15:35:25 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-18.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:35:34 imphasing: I don't think that matters when determining how to treat bare #() 15:36:20 imphasing: you could always allow your scheme to interpret #(a b c) as unquoted 15:36:39 Hm, true 15:37:52 but that would be strange :) 15:42:59 Ugh, quasiquoting vectors make this all harder :( 15:43:06 stupid quasiquotes. 15:44:41 rudybot: eval `#(,1 . ,(list 1 2 3)) 15:44:42 leppie: error: eval:1:6: read: illegal use of `.' 15:45:13 I'm going to pretend vectors are lists in quasiquote, then implicitely list->vector after it's quasiquoted :P 15:45:24 imphasing: that's what everyone else does 15:45:27 Oh 15:45:29 Awesome :D 15:45:40 yay for not being an idiot this time 15:45:48 \o/ 15:46:35 im not even sure what I do in IronScheme 15:46:53 psyntax might do something for me already :) 15:47:05 it does 15:47:16 heh 15:53:11 rudybot: eval `#(,1 ,@(list 1 2 3)) 15:53:13 cky: your sandbox is ready 15:53:13 cky: ; Value: #(1 1 2 3) 15:53:44 leppie: ^^--- That is likely to work better, as it doesn't require treating vectors as dotted pairs. :-P 15:54:00 oops 15:54:33 nope, no oops, thought I made a typo :) 15:55:11 -!- X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:55:15 Heh. 15:55:59 X-Scale [email@sgi-ultra64.broker.freenet6.net] has joined #scheme 15:59:06 -!- frhodes [~user@168-103-97-250.albq.qwest.net] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:12:19 alkoma [~alkoma@c-98-207-166-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:13:36 pchrist [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 16:13:50 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 16:15:05 ijp [~user@host109-156-159-195.range109-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:16:36 -!- pchrist_ [~spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 16:18:57 -!- Euthy [~euthy@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:30:02 -!- oiiii [~oiiii@82.71.241.25] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:34:26 rudybot: eval (let ((c 3)) `(a b unquote c)) 16:34:27 ijp: your sandbox is ready 16:34:27 ijp: ; Value: (a b . 3) 16:34:31 rudybot: eval (let ((c 3)) `#(a b unquote c)) 16:34:32 ijp: error: list->vector: expected argument of type ; given '(a b . 3) 16:34:56 I can see why that works for lists, but I'm not sure I agree with that interpretation for vectors 16:35:48 why ijp? the list is improper, how can it work? 16:36:34 because vectors aren't lists 16:36:53 mithos28 [~eric@99-113-32-54.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 16:37:00 either quote 'unquote , or it should be a syntax violation 16:37:05 jao [~user@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 16:37:44 interesting, i see now :) 16:40:47 of course, this is not a problem in practice, but it irks me