16:03:37 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 16:03:37 16:03:37 -!- names: ccl-logbot fbass Nisstyre kilimanjaro penryu Indian HG` samth zanes copumpkin jonrafkind dostoyevsky rins pygospa Riastradh tupi markskilbeck gnomon replore MrFahrenheit gravicappa homie pandeiro REPLeffect phax DGASAU soveran Nshag kniu ToxicFrog dfeuer DT`` jrapdx yosafbridge XTL leppie masm stis kennyd pchrist ohwow drdo hakkum oldpier dgs thoolihan Modius confab cmatei shardz PreciousMetals pothos yell0 MichaelRaskin zeroish doc_who depy brabo cataska 16:03:37 -!- names: stepnem githogori snorble dsmith kpal cbrannon aoh dsp_ twem2 Adrinael joast peterhil preflex Obfuscate saccadewrk rapacity incubot G_ ecraven tunes Euthydemus` martinhex stamourv pjb evhan mooglenorph takamoron acarrico araujo space-cadet dRbiG tessier Intensity jimster amoe framling C-Keen mario-goulart asumu rudybot docgnome Zol aehrisch elly moll ozzloy weirdo antoszka felipe clog ski mornfall vk0 offby1 inimino shachaf ivartj elliottcable weinholt 16:03:37 -!- names: chemuduguntar levi stchang z0d ft wilx Iceland_jack fbs Hal9k bohanlon faze` eli ineiros finnrobi gabot xian jimrees_ jeff_ em Axioplase_ danking tizoc tauntaun sjamaan zbigniew duncanm eno kanru pbusser2 fds daedric rotty klutometis kandinski tonyg aking foof erg xale snarkyboojum _p4bl0 askhader DerGuteMoritz sloyd specbot ve poucet Pepe_ r11t ada2358_ augiedoggie sepisultrum ray cky 09:37:57 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 09:37:57 09:37:57 -!- names: ccl-logbot preflex pygospa Kajtek masm MichaelRaskin mjonsson pjb X-Scale` docgnome lewis1711 gnomon jrapdx srid_irccloud jkraemer martinhex ASau kennyd cbrannon ray DGASAU copumpkin Nshag rpg sstrickl Intensity penryu mornfall weirdo DrDuck dsmith Riastradh sepisultrum leppie poindont` ToxicFrog amoe pchrist drdo ineiros ivartj dRbiG Pepe_ yourstruly kpal Euthydemus elly whitequark dfeuer araujo PreciousMetals githogori tali713 xale cmatei asumu 09:37:57 -!- names: pothos levi G_ fbs mmc acarrico felipe depywork space-cadet bohanlon aehrisch _p4bl0 ve wilx moll poucet saccadewrk Hal9k mario-goulart Obfuscate ohwow_ gf3 Adrinael Khisanth peterhil confab kniu sjamaan dsp_ zvrba em samth_away malorie fizzie eli gabot stamourv jeff_ danking stchang yosafbri` erikano z0d dostoyevsky XTL shardz yell0 cataska stepnem snorble aoh twem2 joast rapacity incubot ecraven tunes evhan takamoron tessier jimster framling C-Keen 09:37:57 -!- names: rudybot Zol antoszka clog ski vk0 offby1 inimino shachaf elliottcable weinholt ft Iceland_jack finnrobi xian jimrees_ Axioplase_ tizoc tauntaun zbigniew duncanm eno kanru pbusser2 fds daedric rotty cky ada2358_ specbot sloyd DerGuteMoritz askhader snarkyboojum klutometis kandinski tonyg aking foof erg 09:38:39 klutometis: Sorry, what I meant to say is: There are good bits and the style is inflammatory (which I disliked a alot when reading the book) 09:40:47 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 09:42:33 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 09:43:55 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 09:48:41 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:57 speaking of slashdot, my favourite comment there ever: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=101949&cid=8689728 09:51:14 lewis1711: That's classic early-to-mid-aughts; since the Age of the News Aggregators, I don't think we get such good stuff. 09:52:52 probably not. reddit's alright 09:54:10 betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 09:55:26 klutometis: though your theory of these sort of sites all declining in quality since so many of them are popping up and the effort is spread reminds me of some something *slight troll* 09:56:25 -!- betta_y_omega [~betta_y_o@90.166.231.220] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 10:06:13 -!- jkraemer [~jkraemer@74-95-7-186-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 10:06:21 lewis1711: Is reddit alright? Do you stick to proggit? Main page is almost intolerable. HN probably edges reddit out in terms of quality; but their focus is narrower. 10:07:02 *amoe* really hates reddit 10:07:17 pdelgallego [~pdelgalle@1385159933.dhcp.dbnet.dk] has joined #scheme 10:07:18 lewis1711: Yeah; but with a large N, evolutionary pressures are greater. Maybe the One Scheme to Rule the All will be sublime. 10:07:19 and not just for the programming stuff, the general feel 10:07:38 actually the scheme subreddit is quite useful 10:08:05 since c.l.s. is basically moribund now 10:08:35 amoe: What is it about the general feel you hate, by the way? I've been lurking for a while and find it sewage-like but compelling. 10:08:39 It's a shame about c.l.s. 10:08:46 And have you tried HN? 10:09:57 klutometis: yeah pretty much. tbh it's the first one of these sites i've actually signed up for and not just lurked at, so not much to compare it too 10:10:06 oh, work on r7rs is well underway 10:10:07 Reddit feels like a "slightly more pretentious 4chan" to me ;) 10:10:09 cool 10:11:31 HN is good but I stay away from it because it would eat my life 10:11:33 amoe: Ah, classic; that's a great characterization. It's not just more pretentious than 4chan, but they subsist off of 4chan's dregs (once they've become cold and sterile). 10:12:23 modules and exceptions part of the new standard eh. 10:21:20 lewis1711: Is that right? 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[~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:29:21 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 15:41:26 soveran [~soveran@rrcs-24-43-163-86.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:30 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:53:53 -!- srid_irccloud is now known as srid 15:54:21 -!- srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wspfksuhcirnzkjm] has quit [Changing host] 15:54:21 srid [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 15:54:21 -!- srid [u3297@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Changing host] 15:54:21 srid [u3297@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wspfksuhcirnzkjm] has joined #scheme 15:54:29 zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has joined #scheme 16:00:47 -!- cb` [~user@cpe-72-134-23-187.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:01:48 srid_ [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has joined #scheme 16:05:29 foof: note that your `cond' warning example is wrong in any scheme with threads, or if you have any other clauses in between the two `foo's 16:07:43 jewel [~jewel@196-215-117-34.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:08:42 What COND warning example is that? 16:10:44 samth: I'm tired of that argument. What no one ever gives in these debates are any reasons why identifier syntax is actually so important to add to the core language. 16:11:05 Riastradh: http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2011-August/001391.html 16:11:08 http://tinyurl.com/3apv63f 16:11:20 With the number of people who listed identifier syntax as a reason not to ratify R6RS, the burden of convincing is on the other side. 16:12:10 Uh... Any program relying on `(cond (foo ...) (foo ...) ...)' making sense as a consequence of threads is terribly confused and broken. 16:12:23 foof: i think the whole standards process you're engaged in is misguided, but nonethless identifier syntax is useful for a lot of things, and the arguments against it are all throughly pointless in my view 16:12:52 samth: That's not an argument. 16:12:57 Riastradh: no, my point was that the idea of warning exactly when you know that the second (foo ...) is dead is a pointlessly small set of cases 16:14:00 REPLeffect [~REPLeffec@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 16:14:08 foof: would you like a list of uses of identifier syntax? or reasons why trying to reason about pre-expansion code is always a terrible idea? or an argument why standardizing scheme at this juncture is hopeless? or why no one needs an interoperable language for research and teaching? 16:15:26 answer_42 [~answer_42@541AB7C3.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #scheme 16:16:47 samth: No, but I would listen to any well-reasoned plea to the importance of identifier syntax. No one has ever shown me the slightest hint of this. 16:18:53 here's a short list of things in racket that are implemented as identifier syntax: contracted values, functions w/ keyword arguments, structure constructors, the `this' binding in classes, local field references in classes, imports in units 16:19:49 That doesn't mean those features couldn't be implemented in any other way. 16:20:13 Any feature at all has uses. 16:20:33 you can't give static behavior to identifiers usable in expression position without identifier syntax 16:20:57 I'm not convinced you should. 16:21:44 And you're not going to convince me on IRC, it's the wrong medium. 16:22:13 personally, if you're not already convinced by the useful software that's been built, i think it's pretty hopeless 16:23:23 Again, that's not an argument. I can name any (mis)feature of any language, and list all the software it's been used for. That doesn't make it a good feature. 16:23:50 yes, but hopefully you have better ways of building the things those misfeatures have been used for 16:24:03 whereas you've just decided to reject the use cases for identifier syntax 16:24:57 No, I and others have provided many examples of why identifier syntax makes macros weaker, and Scheme harder for programmers to comprehend. 16:25:15 You say you're not convinced by those examples or arguments. 16:25:29 -!- answer_42 [~answer_42@541AB7C3.cm-5-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 16:25:34 basically, without identifier syntax, whether a binding is a macro or a value binding is a permanent part of its contract 16:25:57 I've imagined arguments for identifier syntax, and places I want to use them, and I'm not convinced. 16:26:06 (a) identifier syntax makes it harder to write macros that were almost certainly broken and a bad idea anyway (like your `cond' example) 16:26:30 (b) i'm unconvinced that it makes Scheme harder to understand 16:27:49 Anyway, with all the disagreement, it's very clear it doesn't belong in the small language. 16:28:59 -!- srid_ [~srid@unaffiliated/srid] has quit [Quit: quitting] 16:29:13 But I welcome articles or essays on the importance of identifier syntax. If it sways enough people, maybe it can make it to the large language. 16:30:24 oh goody 16:32:48 Although even that has a stronger ratification requirement than R6RS. 16:32:50 -!- DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:33:09 DrDuck [~duck@146.229.119.19] has joined #scheme 16:33:44 jonrafkind [~jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 16:35:06 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 16:37:13 samth: I hope my tone doesn't come off as curt or condescending, but I have an obligation to be fair both sides of every argument. 16:37:27 And IRC is a really crappy place to argue so I'm going to sleep. 16:37:41 YOU'RE WRONG 16:37:50 sorry. i have no idea what you're talking about. just irc-instincts. 16:40:19 -!- poindont` [~user@122.176.246.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:40:30 i still dont understand this indentifier syntax issue. at the end of the day the compiler sees code, not unexpanded syntax. perhaps I am missing the point. 16:41:23 Well, at the beginning of the day, the programmer sees unexpanded syntax. 16:42:18 there is a difference between writing code and guessing it. I know it happens a lot, but still not an excuse. Human error. 16:42:31 At the end of the day, what does the programmer see? 16:42:41 And in the middle of the day, kittens see rainbows. 16:42:55 I agree that one should not change the semantics of such a variable, like introduce side-effects 16:43:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-174-46.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:43:30 leppie, hmm. Just about everything computers ever do wrong is human error, really. 16:44:04 so why blame the CPU instruction? 16:44:23 (Once in a while a cosmic ray flips a bit in some hapless machine's RAM and then it's cosmic error instead of human error. But the number of human errors out there totally dwarfs the number of accidental bit flips.) 16:44:58 -!- zelak [~zelak@pdpc/supporter/student/zelak] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:45:41 You say the word "accidental" as if cosmic rays don't have any sense of purpose. 16:45:45 Just pointing out that saying `if someone misuses this, it's a human error and not a design error' is a trifle silly. 16:46:25 Riastradh: Except at Google where the programmers are perfect and there are billions more computers than programmers. 16:46:59 -!- replore [~replore@ntkngw133234.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:47:12 Hmm. Even at Google I bet more of the failures are caused by humans than by cosmic rays. 16:47:38 foof: i gave a number of examples here: http://lists.scheme-reports.org/pipermail/scheme-reports/2011-May/000723.html 16:47:39 http://tinyurl.com/3wywhrd 16:47:43 how is the following less 'error-prone'? 16:47:53 (define-syntax moo (syntax-rules () [(_ cow) (cow)])) 16:47:54 (define (destroy-earth) (printf "Kaboom!\n")) 16:47:54 (moo destroy-earth) 16:48:36 leppie, you expect parentheses to mean `here something interesting happens'. 16:48:49 You expect a lack of parentheses to mean `nothing interesting ever happens here'. 16:49:15 afaict, the objection to identifier syntax is that people want to reason programmatically about pre-expanded code 16:50:02 nothing stops the implemntation from emitting a warning (possibly a compiler flag) to warn the user on such usage 16:50:05 wingo: I see red whenever people slap me in the face and tell me "you're implementing macros wrong, they can only take one argument." 16:50:33 i'm sorry for that, I did not mean to slap anyone in that mail. 16:51:23 No, I'm just saying that probably distracted me from even paying attention to any identifier syntax points made in the same mail... 16:51:25 wingo's argument in that mail seemed to be "all extant scheme macro systems can be implemented with single-arity transformers" 16:51:30 I'll re-read it. 16:51:52 samth, well, what's wrong with wanting to reason programmatically about pre-expanded code? For many languages introduced by macros, it may be much easier to reason about the pre-expanded code than it is to expand it and reason about the expansion. 16:52:20 There are plenty of problems with doing this in general, of course, without making any assumptions about what the macros you might use are. 16:53:09 Riastradh: reasoning about the pre-expanded code requires knowing about the semantics of the pre-expanded code, which requires either (a) expanding it and analyzing the core syntax or (b) having some information about the behavior of the macro 16:53:34 After all, what humans work with is (b). 16:53:47 perhaps the confusing thing about what i said is that by "code" i mean "code in a general expansion position" 16:54:51 Riastradh: yes, that's true, but no one has come up with a useful formal specification language for macros other than their implementation (despite much research) 16:55:01 We use lots of hints to make it easier to reason about programs without knowing everything about the program. For example, many people use syntax highlighting to visually distinguish the special operators from the vanilla operators. 16:55:20 Parentheses versus no parentheses is one such hint. 16:55:40 yes, but to my knowledge, all of those are either imprecise or work with expanded code 16:56:13 programming tools can't be imprecise without losing their usefulness -- the same is not true for human heuristics 16:58:11 I'd like to reason about lunch now. 16:58:42 that's pretty un-reasonable 16:58:58 Riastradh: In your environment no such distinction should be made, all syntax is syntax, whether 'primitive' or predefined. 16:59:11 or user-defined 17:00:04 Sure. 17:00:17 pearle_ [~pearle@142.162.228.183] has joined #scheme 17:00:24 sorry, speaking about the syntax highlighting thingy 17:00:32 but still 17:00:52 I'm not arguing in favour of or against identifier syntax at the moment, by the way. Everything I said above could equally well apply in an argument against them as in a style guide advising their tasteful use. 17:01:00 But, duty calls -- someone on the lunchternet is wrong! 17:01:02 *poof*