06:23:11 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 06:23:11 06:23:11 -!- names: ccl-logbot Kajtek dsmith realitygrill Riastradh MichaelRaskin gravicappa Jafet zardoz- nowhereman cataska Axioplase_ Penten ffs parolang ivartj_ DT`` kilimanjaro shardz pygospa Nisstyre Euthydemus aisa blueadept Daemmerung ASau DerGuteMoritz ski monqy vk0 qebab jonrafkind framling X-Scale shachaf drdo kennyd mmc Oddity XTL tessier angrytuna incubot pothos eno eli rekahsoft gnomon Leonidas Nshag araujo alaricsp elly rudybot martinhex cmatei 06:23:11 -!- names: PreciousMetals acarrico stepnem xvilka ohwow DGASAU kytibe Khisanth kniu preflex snorble arbscht askhader rgee aehrisch alfa_y_omega wilx twem2 Pepe_ pjb cky penryu bremner ineiros daedric REPLeffect pchrist faze` bzzbzz mornfall duncanm sjamaan jeff_ ada2358 futilius dsp_ mario-goulart turbofail _p4bl0 amoe joast evhan C-Keen z0d elflng ToxicFrog em dfeuer clog snarkyboojum jimrees_ peterhil yell0 Quetzalcoatl_ sloyd tali713 zanea augiedoggie aoh 06:23:11 -!- names: Intensity gabot danking Adrinael rapacity ecraven docgnome lusory Obfuscate takamoron rotty_ kanru levi xale cbrannon ray stchang micro yosafbridge xian weinholt zbigniew antoszka samth_away felipe moll sir_lewk klutometis kandinski poucet fds tonyg dRbiG Zol aking foof stamourv cipher ozzloy fbs offby1 erg kba tizoc inimino ve 06:25:34 -!- mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:28:54 guidj0s [~gdjs@187.39.186.146] has joined #scheme 06:29:33 What interpreter is recommended for Windows? 06:30:27 Racket (http://racket-lang.org) 06:32:02 What Scheme interpreter is recommended for Windows? 06:32:39 guidj0s: Racket (http://racket-lang.org) 06:32:49 (that's my personal opinion, tho) 06:32:57 is Racket a Scheme implementation written from scratch? 06:33:09 or it's based on something 06:33:29 Well, technically Racket is a renamed PLT-Scheme 06:40:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 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14:38:45 stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has joined #scheme 14:40:52 djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-owmbhxzdwwmfpjyd] has joined #scheme 14:41:16 eli: Oh wow. So you're right! They're just not self-evaluating like Guile's keywords are, but you can quote them and pass them around. *nods* 14:41:43 I mistakenly assumed that they should somehow be self-evaluating, but I made that same mistake with vectors and Chicken. 14:48:02 -!- djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-tewivcimvaovzwzu] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:48:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@184-228-194-192.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:48:02 -!- alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [*.net *.split] 14:48:22 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 14:49:44 realitygrill [~realitygr@184-228-194-192.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 15:01:38 copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-12hcrs5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 15:01:38 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-12hcrs5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:01:38 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 15:07:15 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:13:58 foof, no, handling multiple return values and CASE-LAMBDA is not what makes difficult analyses difficult. Analyzing multiple return values is not intrinsically harder than analyzing multiple arguments. Analyzing CASE-LAMBDA is not intrinsically harder than analyzing LAMBDA. 15:17:11 Riastradh: It's not intrinsically harder, however if you have two separate AST nodes for case-lambda and for lambda, that's double the number of cases you have to handle. 15:17:20 Using CPS as an intermediate representation is irrelevant to how easy or hard it is to store variables in registers or on the stack in loops. 15:18:03 (lambda args ...) -> (case-lambda (args ...)). 15:18:07 no biggie. 15:18:44 wingo: Then all your lambda analysis becomes a little more complex. 15:18:55 foof: true, true. 15:19:19 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 15:19:36 especially if you handle kwargs and such things in your ast, as guile does: truly a pain. 15:19:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:20:48 It may make some parts of the code more fiddly, but that's not the hard part. 15:21:45 Riastradh: I never said CPS made loop analysis harder. 15:22:09 homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-60.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:22:15 `And if you use CPS, you have your work cut out for you making loops register/stack based when possible.' No? 15:22:27 Perhaps I misunderstood. 15:23:01 That was phrased poorly - I mean to say that if you use CPS, good loop analysis is a prerequisite for decently performing code. 15:23:12 Otherwise, a stupid compiler can often luck into tight code. 15:24:18 Direct style without CWCC is isomorphic to a subset of CPS. If what you say is the case, then your CPS compiler is stupider than your direct style compiler. 15:24:53 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:25:47 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-129-72.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 15:26:09 Anyway, how can you be sure that the extra code paths aren't why a Sufficiently Smart Compiler doesn't exist? It doesn't exist yet! 15:27:38 is that what it stands for? all this time i have been trying to make a sufficiently *stupid* compiler! no wonder this thing is slow! 15:27:40 hogeo [~hogeo@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:27:40 ;) 15:28:45 Because I've worked with Scheme compilers, and I know that those parts are not the hard parts. You can strip all those fiddly details off, and what's left is still hard. Putting in the fiddly details nicely is largely a matter of just factoring them out of the hard parts. 15:29:18 -!- hogeo [~hogeo@KD210230163150.ec-userreverse.dion.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:29:19 I disagree. I think little fiddly bits matter a lot more than people think. 15:29:47 I'll race you to the goal ;) 15:35:14 foof: cool :-) 15:35:18 -!- ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36:49 ray [ray@xkcd-sucks.org] has joined #scheme 15:38:16 As a pretty trivial example, LIAR's closure analysis code doesn't mention anything about arity or parsing lambda parameters and application arguments. The frame reuse code hardly mentions them at all, except to list the names of the parameters. The closure analysis and frame reuse code are by far the hairiest and hardest to understand parts of LIAR. 15:41:29 I can give examples too - Chibi's rest optimization extensively uses pattern matching on all the AST types. Maybe this could be refactored, but it's the sort of thing that's quicker to prototype simply before refactoring. 15:44:51 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-129-72.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:46:31 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 15:47:06 Those are both good examples to support my point, actually. Closure analysis is a textbook compiler technique - it's well understood and can be factored cleanly. 15:47:51 Chibi's rest optimization is a novel technique (probably still buggy in fact), that I hacked out exploratively. 15:48:06 Perhaps you mean something else by `closure analysis'. 15:48:38 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:49:39 My hunch is that until you've learned all the techniques needed for an SSC, you need to explore and hack them out. 15:50:54 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-212-178.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 15:51:17 This part of LIAR has been completely rewritten about four times because it's so tremendously hard to understand and has no obvious `textbook' solution. 15:54:29 Anyway, I'd rather hack than argue. Later! 15:57:27 Riastradh, how do I know that you are telling the truth? 15:57:44 You can read the Git logs and the scary comment at the top of closan.scm. 15:58:08 (Well, one of the rewrites was never finished, so there are no Git logs about that, but I have it sitting in my mailbox.) 15:58:59 it sounds like writing a scheme compiler would be instructive 15:59:57 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:00:42 I should try that 16:01:36 is R5RS a reasonable thing to try to implement for someone who has written a C compiler before but never a compiler for a higher-level language? 16:02:00 elly: yes! i recommend ghuloum's paper 16:02:16 Don't worry about conforming to the R5RS; a tiny subset suffices to be interesting. 16:02:26 the incremental compiler construction one. 16:04:20 agh, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf -> 403 16:04:31 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 16:04:46 http://scheme2006.cs.uchicago.edu/11-ghuloum.pdf 16:04:56 danke 16:07:42 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 16:09:18 -!- ijp [~user@host109-153-24-247.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has left #scheme 16:12:58 kuribas [~user@d54C435DC.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 16:14:06 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:15:33 dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:33 -!- dfeuer [~dfeuer@pool-71-178-51-188.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:15:33 dfeuer [~dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 16:16:16 -!- mads- [~mar@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:24:16 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:24:36 scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has joined #scheme 16:24:54 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 16:27:08 DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-129-72.hsv.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:13 HG` [~HG@p5DC04CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:48 mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has joined #scheme 16:33:24 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:39:14 -!- Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:43:30 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:44:39 Leonidas [~Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #scheme 16:47:11 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 16:49:59 thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has joined #scheme 16:53:07 parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 17:00:06 ineiros [~itniemin@james.ics.hut.fi] has joined #scheme 17:09:37 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 17:11:29 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 17:15:52 -!- djcb_ [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-owmbhxzdwwmfpjyd] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:19:00 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:24:58 barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-49-6-99.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 17:25:23 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 17:32:03 -!- thoolihan [~Tim@50.51.23.145] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:32:57 alaricsp [~alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 17:33:01 copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-12hcrs5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 17:33:02 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@user-12hcrs5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Changing host] 17:33:02 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 17:33:23 bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:33:33 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:34:20 is there any effort for a common c ffi for scheme? (ffi as in calling c functions from scheme without writing c code) 17:34:56 like common lisp's cffi ( http://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/ ) 17:35:25 Not in R5RS 17:35:34 In R7RS? WG2? 17:35:37 there are some for r6rs 17:35:39 I think FFI is being discussed in r7rs 17:36:15 see eduardo cavazos' recent r6rs-discuss message 17:36:41 wingo: really? thanks for the pointer :) 17:37:07 i hate it that i can only write libary bindings that work for only one single implementation 17:37:35 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:37:35 wingo: although if I had to chose one, it would be guile ;) 17:38:01 Racket's FFI is pretty sweet. 17:38:30 so I hear 17:38:32 Daemmerung: yes indeed 17:38:53 it looks nice from the documentation, but it would be so much better if there were a portable api 17:38:55 I fantasize about porting it to Gambit. Someday. 17:39:22 *Daemmerung* has kinda lame fantasies 17:40:51 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-222-84.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:42:18 i really hope we'll see a ffi interface in WG2 17:42:56 *offby1* fantasies about grilling 17:42:59 *fds* too. 17:43:07 *Daemmerung* is living the fantasy 17:43:23 did some pork chops last night. Mrs Offby1 thought they were great, but I was underwhelmed. 17:45:15 Sausage party on the barbie today. Currently proofing buns for same and wilting cabbage for slaw. Frau D is making patriotic pies. 17:46:26 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:46:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:48:39 monqy_ [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 17:48:50 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 17:48:57 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 17:50:58 aoh_ [~aki@85.23.168.115] has joined #scheme 17:51:10 mjonsson_ [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has joined #scheme 17:51:24 moll_ [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 17:51:38 soveran_ [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 17:51:39 danking_ [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 17:52:10 -!- aoh [~aki@85.23.168.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- mjonsson [~mjonsson@38.109.95.205] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- faze` [~chris@c-66-41-214-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- danking [~danking@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- moll [~user@150.181.35.213.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:10 -!- peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:52:12 faze` [~chris@c-66-41-214-247.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:52:27 mmm 17:52:46 in other meat news: I hear "Bill The Butcher" will open a new store mere blocks from my house. 17:54:00 peterhil [~peterhil@hoasnet-ff04dd00-56.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #scheme 17:54:16 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 18:02:45 That is good meat news. 18:10:12 masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 18:18:45 -!- soveran_ is now known as soveran 18:19:38 -!- scottj [~scott@206.212.250.58] has left #scheme 18:22:02 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@184-228-194-192.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 18:35:10 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 18:38:46 -!- homie [~levgue@xdsl-84-44-208-60.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 18:50:33 -!- bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:50:54 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:53:34 choas [~lars@p578F6C70.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:39 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 18:53:56 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:54:18 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@c-71-232-52-86.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:58:51 -!- stis [~stis@1-1-1-39a.veo.vs.bostream.se] has left #scheme 19:22:58 -!- aoh_ is now known as aoh 19:28:39 -!- tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:34:09 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 19:44:01 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 19:45:40 bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:45 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 19:51:39 -!- bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:55:12 tomppa [~tomppa@a91-155-210-159.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:55:12 -!- tomppa [~tomppa@a91-155-210-159.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:55:56 tomppa [~tomppa@a91-155-210-159.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 19:55:56 -!- tomppa [~tomppa@a91-155-210-159.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:57:47 -!- barryfm [~barryfm@fl-71-49-6-99.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has left #scheme 20:04:04 -!- parolang [~parolang@c-64-246-121-114.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20:12:14 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #scheme 20:13:57 Hal9k [~Lernaean@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 20:14:45 Is there a way to make Guile's string-split take more than one character as its second argument? 20:16:49 bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:49 -!- bSON [~denis@dslb-188-102-096-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:29 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 20:20:01 jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #scheme 20:24:03 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:26:45 -!- pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-d9bfde30.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:28:48 pygospa [~TheRealPy@kiel-4dbecc53.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #scheme 20:35:24 What behavior would you seek from that? 20:37:19 I suppose something like (string-split "a.b,c" ".,") => ("a" "b" "c") 20:37:54 Yeah 20:37:58 (that's what chicken's `string-split' does) 20:38:14 string-fold-right will help 20:38:46 (hunch, untested) 20:39:28 djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #scheme 20:39:29 nah, doesn't need to be `right', my bad 20:39:33 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 20:40:15 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:41:44 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:42:43 -!- ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:43:04 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 20:44:26 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-149.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:46:49 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-149.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:47:46 -!- nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-149.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:50:08 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:53:27 nowhere_man [~pierre@AStrasbourg-551-1-91-149.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 20:57:42 pcavs [~paul@c-76-118-179-235.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:58:25 fds: ,help string-split 20:59:00 er 20:59:36 ,d string-split apparently :) 21:00:21 so no, it appears to only take a character. 21:00:30 there are some srfi-13 things that take character sets 21:01:14 Surely that couldn't be too hard to patch? (He says naively.) 21:01:18 -!- DrDuck [~duck@adsl-98-81-129-72.hsv.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:01:20 -!- eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:01:30 It seems to me like a useful extension that several other Schemes use. 21:01:42 (At least Chicken and Gauche.) 21:01:57 eli [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 21:02:21 Although, actually, I think Chicken and Gauche extend it slightly differently, heh. 21:02:50 But, some kind of extension seems sensible to me! 21:04:04 ,help 21:04:24 `,help' is a Guile REPL metacommand. 21:06:36 mads- [~mads@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has joined #scheme 21:08:45 fds: yeah, dunno :) mail the list if you have a concrete proposal. 21:08:51 fds: Not only guile. 21:09:09 wingo: Is there some page that lists these commands? 21:09:25 cky: Yeah, they're just not self-evaluating, and that's a major feature,. 21:09:30 eli: http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/REPL-Commands.html#REPL-Commands 21:09:31 http://tinyurl.com/6goajv7 21:09:40 wingo: I'll do that! 21:09:55 HG` [~HG@p5DC04CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:13:42 wingo: I'll probably steal a few. 21:14:01 eli: please do! 21:17:32 tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #scheme 21:17:32 -!- tricus [~tricus@h69-130-142-158.cncrtn.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #scheme 21:18:48 fds: What do you want to do that char-sets don't already? Confused. 21:19:15 eli: :-) (Re non-self-evaluating keywords.) 21:19:42 Though.... 21:19:48 rudybot: init swindle 21:19:48 cky: your swindle sandbox is ready 21:19:55 rudybot: (eq? '#:foo #:foo) 21:19:56 cky: ; Value: #t 21:20:17 It seems that Swindle makes them self-evaluating for some reason. Is that for some sort of CLOS compatibility, or something else? 21:20:29 cky: Right -- swindle is based on the `mzscheme' language, which is a legacy thing, which is why keywords self-evaluate. 21:20:32 cky: I want to be able to pass a char-set to string-split. (Or something equivalent.) 21:20:42 fds: You already can, surely? 21:20:47 eli: I see. *nods* 21:20:53 cky: And that's different from swindle's keyword, which are the simple CL-like things. 21:21:02 *nods* 21:21:03 cky: nope, it was a pre-srfi-13 function, it seems 21:21:07 wingo, did you steal those from Scheme48? 21:21:14 If not, perhaps eli would like to steal some from Scheme48 too. 21:21:36 cky: We've later played with those as a library, but the new design works much better (especially with that feature!). 21:22:02 Riastradh: no, they were already in keisuke's guile-vm in 2001 or so -- though surely he took them from s48 21:22:16 Riastradh: Yeah, I assumed that he took some things from s48, and I remember looking at it for a while, but nothing stood out as worth stealing. 21:22:49 Mostly the same for guile, btw, but there were a few cute things. (I should probably relook at the s48 commands.) 21:22:54 ,IN is the important one. 21:23:14 cky: How? (string-split "foobar" (char-set "foodbarebaz" (char-set #\d #\e))) doesn't work. 21:23:43 Nor does (string-split "foobar" (char-set "foodbarebaz" "de")), or anything else I've thought to try. 21:23:49 what do you mean, non-self-evaluating keywords? 21:24:16 *wingo* should probably also look at s48's commands again too 21:26:46 Oops 21:27:00 The Scheme I just wrote was nonsense! Why didn't anyone tell me? :-) 21:27:30 I meant: (string-split "foodbarebaz" (char-set #\d #\e)) 21:27:44 Or (string-split "foodbarebaz" "de") 21:27:49 fds: (string-tokenize "a.b,c" (char-set-complement (string->char-set ".,"))) 21:28:07 rudybot: init racket 21:28:07 cky: your sandbox is ready 21:28:12 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:28:14 rudybot: #:foo 21:28:14 cky: error: eval:1:0: #%datum: keyword used as an expression in: #:foo 21:28:17 elly: ^^--- 21:28:21 rudybot: '#:foo 21:28:21 cky: ; Value: #:foo 21:28:43 Riastradh: We have that -- but it's called ,en -- short for `enter', which is a slightly more fitting terminology. 21:28:48 elly: In an implementation with self-evaluating keywords, like Guile, you can just write bare #:foo and it would work. 21:28:55 cky: Thanks. The reason I was trying to do it with string-split was because I found Gauche code that did it that way. 21:29:07 Perhaps there is some point in keeping things uniform, but with anything that is related to the module system that's not going to help much anyway. 21:29:13 elly: I'm not saying whether that's a good thing or not. As eli mentioned, non-self-evaluating keywords are not a bad thing. 21:29:15 Often, STRING-SPLIT, if it is what I think it is, won't do what you want anyway... Consider trying to stuff the string `foo,bar' into a field in some comma-separated record format. Do you have a mechanism for escaping? 21:29:34 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 21:29:36 Riastradh: Oh, no...let's not get started on CSV. :-( 21:29:37 cky, you're not saying whether it's a good thing or not, but you are saying it's a bad thing? Hmm. 21:30:00 Riastradh: I'm simply mentioning what eli has said, without owning any opinion. 21:30:51 `As eli mentioned' is a descriptive qualifier, not an essential part of the semantics. You could omit it without changing the substantive meaning of the sentence. 21:30:54 cky: It's good for a bunch of reasons -- not making mistakes; making it possible to put keyword/args anywhere in the function application (eg, before additional positional arguments), and more. See our paper. 21:31:32 eli: I'll check it out in my copious free time. :-) 21:31:50 It's not too long. 21:32:09 You can read it in one sitting. 21:32:25 *eli* avoids elaborating that joke. 21:32:58 jcowan [~John@p-74-209-24-147.dsl1.rtr.chat.fpma.frpt.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:04 ;-) 21:33:22 coi 21:33:45 eli: Guile lets you put keyword args anywhere too, but the way it handles that in combination with rest arguments is...quirky. 21:34:41 cky: The only way I see doing that would be a hack that depends on keywords being specified literally. 21:34:55 cky, hmm. That would suggest that the semantics of (foo :bar x) -- that is, what argument supplies what parameter, and in fact how many arguments are passed at all -- depends on the definition of FOO. 21:34:55 As in (define foo #:bar) not being useful at all. 21:35:19 Worse, consider (let ((bar :bar)) (foo bar x)). Are you passing FOO one or two arguments? 21:35:30 *eli* +1s 21:37:00 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-221-220.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:37:04 Like I said, quirky. 21:37:47 Riastradh: How could it be otherwise? It is after all the definition of FOO that describes whether it takes kwargs in the first place. 21:38:27 -!- fbs [~fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 21:38:28 jcowan: That's where eli's point about non-self-evaluating keywords is useful. 21:38:32 cky: "quirky" in *that* area seems very dangerous. I've seen such ideas rolled around a few times, but never carried through in an implementation. 21:38:35 fbs [~fbs@fsf/member/fbs] has joined #scheme 21:38:51 eli: Lemme test that out and see what comes out. 21:38:56 jcowan, in Racket, (foo :bar x) passes one argument to FOO (a named argument), (foo bar x) passes two arguments (two positional arguments), and (let ((bar :bar)) ...) is a syntax error. 21:39:02 IOW, mistakes that such guesses lead too can be very dangerous. 21:40:04 jcowan, the model is that each parameter has a label. Traditional Scheme has only numeric labels for parameters -- hence positional parameters. Racket extends the set of parameter labels to include keywords -- hence named parameters. Lambda and procedure application are both extended to support this. 21:40:25 How is apply extended, then? 21:40:36 eli: Right, because passing random variables that turn out to contain keywords could cause unexpected behaviour. 21:40:42 eli: And that's what I'm observing with Guile. 21:41:02 eli: (e.g., the (define foo #:bar) example you had.) 21:41:03 jcowan, APPLY, or procedure application (f x y ...)? 21:41:16 Calling (func foo 42) is identical to calling (func #:bar 42). :-S 21:41:16 APPLY. 21:41:31 jcowan, a new procedure KEYWORD-APPLY. 21:41:55 cky: Yeah, that's exactly what I'd consider too dangerous in that neighborhood. 21:41:59 eli: *nods* 21:42:31 *wingo* nods as well 21:42:35 it's the cl thing. 21:42:36 cky, but you said you can put them anywhere, even before positional arguments. So how do you pass a keyword as a positional argument? 21:42:45 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@60-234-133-173.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:42:55 -!- masm [~masm@bl16-149-135.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:43:05 Riastradh: The way Guile does it is, as far as I know, functions that take keywords are treated differently to functions that don't take keywords. 21:43:10 -!- djcb [~user@a88-114-88-233.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:43:40 Riastradh: Functions that take keywords aren't able to specify keywords as positional arguments. (Or maybe I just didn't try hard enough.) 21:43:41 *jcowan* likes arcfide's design, in which keywords are identifiers bound to keyword objects, and keyword objects are KEYWORD=? iff they are bound to the same identifier. 21:44:49 cky: to be precise, in guile all functions receive their arguments in order, and it is the function's job to parse them. most functions have one clause (in the case-lambda sense) and expect exactly N values 21:45:07 http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/KeywordArgumentsArcfide 21:45:20 procedures with optional, keyword, and rest arguments, and the different permutations thereof, parse their arguments specially. 21:45:26 which has the advantage of being portable to any R5RS Scheme with records. 21:45:48 wingo: Is there a way I can modify this parsing? I can actually use that to try to implement SRFI 89-style parsing. 21:45:50 wingo: i.e. the same as Common Lisp 21:45:54 jcowan: yep 21:46:21 Albeit with all the dangers mentioned by eli, of course. :-( 21:46:41 cky: at the very base level of rest arguments, yes; but otherwise no. unless you can transform to guile's native representation. 21:46:42 jcowan, you should read eli's paper, and carefully consider the pitfalls of embedding named arguments within positional arguments rather than using a separate mechanism for them. 21:46:45 Alas, the logger at ccl is busted, so I don't know what dangers those were. 21:46:52 Riastradh: url? 21:46:54 the problem is that arguments on the stack (or in registers, etc) is not a data structure. 21:47:06 rotty has a logger 21:47:13 wingo: Url? 21:47:13 ;;; Eli Barzilay and Matthew Flatt, `Keyword and Optional Arguments 21:47:14 ;;; in PLT Scheme', Scheme Workshop 2009. 21:47:14 ;;; 21:47:26 jcowan: 21:47:42 'tis a good paper, that. 21:47:43 *cky* reads that paper. 21:48:01 *cky* still has to finish reading eli's continuations tutorial. :-) 21:48:08 ok, to bed. night! 21:48:11 Have fun! 21:48:28 *fds* is reading his way through all of eli's lecture notes. 21:48:59 Here's an implementation for MIT Scheme which is not deeply tied to MIT Scheme except for the use of entities (procedures with inspectable data hung on them): . 21:50:02 That implementation is factored into parts to illustrate that, with a little help from the linker, Racket's named argument mechanism requires zero run-time overhead for many applications. 21:52:06 I don't mean just for applications involving no named arguments (there is no overhead at all for that, of course), but rather for applications with named arguments of global procedures with named parameters where all parameters are required and all arguments supplied -- in that case there need be no argument parsing or defaulting at all, just like required positional parameters. 21:53:27 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:53:32 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:54:37 And even when there is parsing, it's a linear scan to merge two sorted lists. 21:58:09 cky: Note that since then I added some quick introduction to delimited continuations, mostly demonstrated via implementing genarators. (But not as thorough as the part on plain continuations). 21:58:20 fds: If you have any comments I'll be happy to hear them, btw. 21:58:43 eli: Cool, I'll redownload, then. Still the same URL? 21:58:47 Yes. 21:58:49 *eli* leaves to prepare for the local patriotic festivities. 21:58:52 :-) 21:58:55 Enjoy! 21:59:05 cky: URL of eli's paper? 21:59:33 http://pl.barzilay.org/lec27.txt 22:02:25 Thanks 22:04:29 Riastradh: The reason I don't like that design is that it is a fundamental change to Scheme. Instead of a single way to invoke procedures procedurally (viz. APPLY) there are now two. 22:07:10 pnkfelix [~Adium@173-144-20-148.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #scheme 22:11:02 Let me know if you find a way to avoid that while preserving the property that named arguments are independent of, and not transmitted by, positional arguments. 22:12:01 ijp [~user@host109-153-24-247.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 22:15:25 Indeed. 22:19:19 -!- choas [~lars@p578F6C70.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:27:24 -!- rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-212-15-233.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:30 pnkfelix1 [~Adium@184.241.123.108] has joined #scheme 22:27:50 rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-67-212-15-233.acanac.net] has joined #scheme 22:31:10 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@173-144-20-148.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:38:54 -!- HG` [~HG@p5DC04CBE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:15:45 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 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danking_ moll_ aoh monqy alaricsp ineiros Leonidas dfeuer ray aleix Nshag kennyd stepnem rotty tessier_ zanea DT`` dsmith Riastradh Jafet cataska Axioplase_ ivartj_ shardz Nisstyre blueadept Daemmerung ASau DerGuteMoritz 05:41:44 -!- names: ski vk0 qebab framling shachaf drdo XTL angrytuna incubot pothos eno elly rudybot martinhex cmatei PreciousMetals acarrico xvilka ohwow DGASAU kytibe Khisanth kniu preflex snorble askhader aehrisch wilx twem2 Pepe_ cky bremner daedric REPLeffect pchrist bzzbzz mornfall duncanm sjamaan jeff_ ada2358 futilius dsp_ mario-goulart turbofail _p4bl0 amoe joast evhan C-Keen z0d elflng ToxicFrog em clog snarkyboojum jimrees_ yell0 Quetzalcoatl_ sloyd tali713 05:41:44 -!- names: augiedoggie Intensity gabot Adrinael rapacity ecraven docgnome lusory Obfuscate takamoron kanru levi xale cbrannon stchang micro yosafbridge xian weinholt zbigniew antoszka samth_away felipe sir_lewk ve inimino tizoc kba erg offby1 ozzloy cipher stamourv foof aking Zol dRbiG tonyg fds poucet kandinski klutometis 05:45:52 littlebobby: thanks-- didn't know how strong a mispronunciation signal that trailing "e" would give. 05:48:23 Daemmerung, if you're a brave one press the speaker symbol on the right hand side on the 2nd row: http://www.dict.cc/?s=python 05:49:03 *Daemmerung* laughs 05:50:20 needed some proper training to say pie-thawn 05:57:12 mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.229.211] has joined #scheme 05:59:47 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-67-169-155-217.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 06:05:03 http://programmingwiki.inf.hs-zigr.de/index.php/Einf%C3%BChrung_in_die_Kommunikation_mit_Scheme 06:05:03 http://tinyurl.com/3jteunr 06:06:17 "(sprich: skiem)" 06:10:00 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@109.74.204.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:10:40 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 06:11:04 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:11:17 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Disconnected by services] 06:11:19 monqy_ [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:24 -!- monqy_ is now known as monqy 06:12:06 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 06:13:08 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:14:22 Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #scheme 06:33:01 djcb [~djcb@nat/nokia/x-nhtvfiwcuvpydxdm] has joined #scheme 06:37:20 -!- jonrafkind [~jon@jonr5.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:38:20 jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 06:48:00 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:48:12 -!- jewel [~jewel@196-209-224-145.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:48:48 drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 06:55:05 -!- gnomon 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joined #scheme 07:45:30 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 07:58:50 -!- monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: hello] 08:03:48 -!- kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 08:06:03 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:07:14 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:07:28 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 08:14:59 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:32:25 skld_ [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has joined #scheme 08:34:55 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:41 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:23 http://www.ohloh.net/languages/compare?measure=commits&percent=&l0=golang&l1=lisp&l2=-1&l3=scheme&l4=-1&commit=Update 08:37:24 yow! 08:37:25 http://tinyurl.com/5r47jjw 08:37:33 not looking too good right now :P 08:40:24 Scheme (and Lisp) was never very popular 08:41:03 well, dunno 08:41:13 in any case we're not on the up-tick 08:41:25 according to that graph anyway 08:41:34 aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has joined #scheme 08:41:57 PHP - which is one of the weakest, ugliest etc. languages - is growing 08:42:01 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 08:42:44 It's clear that the Scheme community must accelerate its breeding program. 08:42:45 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@78-1-135-114.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:45:03 do most Scheme implementations support R6RS now? 08:46:12 nope. some do, some don't. even among the ones that do people mostly program in implementation-specific dialects. 08:46:19 kennyd [~kennyd@93-138-187-107.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 08:47:02 Do most Scheme programmers support R6RS now? 08:48:01 i'm warming up to it :) 08:49:12 I'm not even sure the number of implementations with R6RS support (or the will to support it) has growed much since R6RS has been out 08:49:31 I see CHICKEN doesn't support it. But it's still an awesome implementation 08:49:48 yeah, R6RS seems to be an outsider 08:50:01 TBH I was perfectly happy with R5RS. 08:51:22 Axioplase_: I don't think any have been added to the list since guile 08:51:26 s/growed/grown/ 08:51:48 For the people who are perfectly happy with R5RS, R7RS is basically the same thing with modules. 08:52:19 That way they can be perfectly happy _together_, and maybe increase the activity in the aforementioned graph :) 08:52:27 Yay! 08:54:24 By the way, how do SRFIs interact with the various RnRS? 08:56:05 I guess there won't be too much backward incompatibilities that would break any SRFI (or its reference implementation), but may it happen? 08:56:25 Axioplase_: pretty well with R6 given http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-97/srfi-97.html 09:13:24 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 09:21:02 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:21:42 -!- skld_ [~skld@vpn.bangalore.geodesic.com] has left #scheme 09:24:47 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 09:24:47 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Excess Flood] 09:40:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-176-222.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:44:40 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 09:53:21 guile seems to be growing well - http://www.ohloh.net/p/guile/analyses/latest 09:53:39 i bet go seems so popular at ohloh only because it confuses guild modules as go sources :) 09:56:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-186-30.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:56:42 hehe :) 09:57:56 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:10:54 -!- Penten [~user@114.255.149.182] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:16:58 how sad - http://courses.csail.mit.edu/6.006/spring11/lectures/lec01.pdf 10:18:45 in an introduction to algorithms the first lessons it teaches are idiosyncracies of python (e.g. use .extend() not +, work with the whole doc at once instead of line-by-line) 10:19:08 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 10:21:20 split words with "string.translate" being one of the biggest speedups, presumably because python is such a slow language you need to use builtins and C code wherever possible 10:21:50 I mean, that's what algorithms are all about, right? Knowing the right builtins to use? 10:22:22 how are they ever going to get good at using documentation if they don't start now :) 10:26:01 of course, when every single field reference is only O(1) on the assumption you don't have too many hash collisions... 10:28:32 *foof* weeps for the future 10:29:50 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-163-13.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:32:20 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 10:32:46 -!- Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:33:40 Obfuscate [~keii@ip98-176-17-38.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 10:35:40 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 10:41:40 Euthydemus [~euthydemu@unaffiliated/euthydemus] has joined #scheme 10:43:21 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:46:21 Don't worry, just hope you're not in it. 10:56:18 -!- aidalgol [~user@114-134-7-23.rurallink.co.nz] has quit [Quit: zZzZzZz] 11:09:44 schemer999 [~schemer99@c-98-220-235-205.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 11:10:07 is there a version of r5rs in an ebook format somewhere? need something for my kindle. 11:11:31 pjb [~t@81.202.16.46.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 11:13:21 ah, nevermind. i'll try the chm first. 11:19:06 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:19:21 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 11:24:29 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:24:50 mads- [~mads@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has joined #scheme 11:26:09 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 11:27:20 soveran [~soveran@186.19.214.247] has joined #scheme 11:29:48 tupi [~david@189.60.162.202] has joined #scheme 11:37:27 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-167-180.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:40:55 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 11:51:15 -!- mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.229.211] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:13:14 -!- masm [~masm@bl19-135-128.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 12:18:44 bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 12:18:52 -!- bombshelter13b [~bombshelt@76-10-149-209.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:28:26 mithridates [~mithridat@142.167.229.211] has joined #scheme 12:32:11 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:33:43 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:35:01 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:36:26 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:37:41 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:38:36 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:39:47 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:40:44 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:41:56 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:43:18 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:44:31 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:45:37 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:46:55 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:48:06 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 12:48:48 homie [~levgue@xdsl-78-35-164-213.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 12:49:25 githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has joined #scheme 12:50:21 -!- githogori [~githogori@41.215.29.254] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54:37 -!- tupi [~david@189.60.162.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:55:21 MrFahrenheit [~RageOfTho@users-146-61.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 12:58:21 -!- schemer999 [~schemer99@c-98-220-235-205.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: schemer999] 13:05:05 genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has joined #scheme 13:07:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:08:25 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:58 taylanub [~taylanub@85.108.229.225] has joined #scheme 13:14:35 anyone using edwin ? they say it's less extensible than emacs, i'd like to hear thoughts on that. i'd love a scheme based emacs 13:14:54 Who says that? 13:15:14 hrmm, the emacs wiki :P 13:15:29 well i wouldn't expect them to be blatantly biased like that 13:16:15 I think `they' probably mean `I don't know how to extend Edwin because there's no Edwin hacking introduction like the eintr Info document.' 13:16:43 well it's what the emacs wiki says. i myself am clueless indeed though 13:16:47 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 13:16:48 well, there are less extensions is probably a fair statement. 13:17:45 Edwin is probably more extensible, actually, because less of it is C code that is non-trivial to frob at run-time. 13:18:23 Another possibility is that they think "emacs has much more extensions than edwin, so there are more things to extend, therefore, edwin is less extensible". 13:18:35 -!- yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Quit: leaving] 13:18:47 yeah, that would be a foolish conclusion, but people are often foolish. 13:19:28 yell0 [yello@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #scheme 13:21:19 Anyway, there's very little documentation on the subject; you're on your own Uing TSL. 13:21:27 *poof* 13:24:14 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:25:25 tupi [~david@139.82.89.24] has joined #scheme 13:26:00 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:30:41 -!- realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: realitygrill] 13:43:23 dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has joined #scheme 13:46:24 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-23.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 13:47:51 -!- dnolen [~davidnole@184.152.69.75] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:32 -!- drdo [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:49:40 drdo` [~drdo@91.205.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 14:04:25 -!- alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:07:51 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 14:08:54 -!- copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:09:20 copumpkin [~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:10:58 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-194-43.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 14:17:45 -!- elliottcable|zzz is now known as elliottcable 14:20:40 tauntaun [~Crumpet@ool-44c711b3.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 14:33:53 -!- wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:34:11 wingo [~wingo@90.164.198.39] has joined #scheme 14:36:54 -!- ijp [~user@host109-153-24-247.range109-153.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 14:40:22 -!- martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:47:39 martinhex [~mjc@93-97-29-243.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:53:34 ymasory [~ymasory@mkb003.wlan.isc-seo.upenn.edu] has joined #scheme 14:55:03 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:01:56 -!- samth_away is now known as samth 15:08:38 -!- danking_ is now known as danking 15:27:43 ls 15:27:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:28:04 whops. Sorry. Wrong window -.- 15:28:19 eli: With the "eval of lexical variables" question, I've come to find that many people learning Scheme, especially ones coming from languages like Ruby and PHP, expect Scheme to be dynamic to the same degree. They don't understand that, much like C and Java, local variables are generally untouchable by other functions. 15:29:19 eli: I've kind of gotten frustrated with trying to explain that to people over and over again. Thus, it's refreshing to see your explanation of all that. 15:29:30 cky: :) 15:29:48 I'm perfecting minimizing these explanations. 15:29:54 Hehehe. :-) 15:30:02 At least for Python I know that they had it in the past and then dumped the idea. 15:30:23 I can understand why they dumped it. :-) 15:30:25 And hooking on JS's odd behavior is nice, though takes more verbiage to follow. 15:32:55 Yes, not least because now I understand why a literal "eval" in JS is treated specially. (I know that it does happen, because the ECMAScript spec says so. So it's nice to know why, too. :-)) 15:33:55 Basically, literal "eval" == VoodooHappensHere(tm). 15:36:30 -!- genieliu [~genieliu@59.78.62.120] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:37:20 cky: It's simple, really. You could imagine implementing this -- 15:37:57 hm, where is this lexical scope discussion ? 15:38:00 something like defining your own `lambda' which looks for an `eval', and if it sees one, it constructs a hash table (or whatever) with all the bindings, which can then be used by this eval. 15:38:38 And that clarifies why it can block optimizations (for example, keeping an otherwise unnecessary reference), as well as exposing differences based on names. 15:38:52 ski: http://stackoverflow.com/q/6584818/13 15:39:17 eli: That's a very good illustration, both of implementation technique and the overhead involved. Thanks for sharing. :-) 15:39:29 Another way to see it is in Racket's module system -- modules could be optimized by dropping otherwise unused bindings, but the presence of reflective apis you just can't do that. 15:39:54 And that often leads to situations where, for example, you'd have a function value even when the function was inlined. 15:40:15 Is there a way to mark a module invisible to reflection, so that the optimisations could remain in place? 15:40:17 i am not certain that it actually breaks compilation, eli 15:40:32 did you read the self deoptimization paper? 15:41:12 they seem to be able to compile but deoptimize to the illusion of source-level semantics, effectively preserving the textual interpretation of running code 15:41:21 but allowing the compiler to speculatively disregard those bindings 15:41:23 cky: In Racket there's a flag to disable inlining, which makes it possible to do things that are otherwise impossible, but you can't really make it invisible. 15:41:30 that said, it's nothing i'd want to implement or require ;-) 15:41:58 A related hack is to use a local `let-syntax' instead of a macro -- this way when the code compiles the macro is no longer needed; but if you define a macro its code must be present there. 15:41:59 wingo: :-) 15:42:11 It's hard to implement seems to obscure the main problem with it. 15:42:18 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.22] has left #scheme 15:42:32 wingo: Well, doesn't break compilation strictly speaking; but breaks some basic optimizations. 15:42:56 Given the blurry line between what's a compiler and what's not I suppose that some people would call that "break compilation"... 15:43:29 In any case, it's a much better way to explain it without getting all philosophical in a way that is utterly useless for the newbie who's trying to abuse eval... 15:44:19 eli: http://labs.oracle.com/self/papers/dynamic-deoptimization.html 15:44:28 pnkfelix [~Adium@c-76-121-97-74.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:44:37 Hello 15:45:10 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:45:44 agreed regarding newbs tho :) 15:46:12 wingo: Yeah, I know about some of these hacks, not that specific paper, but it doesn't look like there's any news... 15:46:23 wingo, the paper you cited is about debugging. It's not about program semantics -- about the idea expressed by a program. 15:46:41 "shields" seems to be a key euphemism there. 15:46:45 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:47:08 Riastradh: depends on what your language model is 15:47:11 BTW, when I'm talking about "breaking", it's things like: 15:47:16 For example, of course it is useful for a debugger to use EVAL to evaluate expressions in the environment of a stack frame. 15:47:22 e.g., in self, if you declare a local variable, you have a local variable. 15:47:32 that's what the language says. 15:47:40 (define foo (let* ([l (get-some-huge-list)] [n (length l)]) (lambda (x) n))) 15:47:58 But that's a world different from (let ((x 5)) (frobnitz) x) expressing a program that ever yields a value other than 5. 15:48:00 whereas in scheme, having a local variable or not is not observeable in many cases 15:48:03 Some people would expect that to not hold on to the huge list. 15:49:15 i guess what i'm saying is that in scheme it's not part of the language definition, and that's why you can't have a the-environment in scheme. 15:49:25 that doesn't prevent some impls from providing it tho. 15:50:01 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 15:50:12 though perhaps proper tail calls do forbid the textual model of scopes, as eli notes... 15:50:23 What I'm saying is that a THE-ENVIRONMENT procedure is generally a fundamentally broken way to design a language. 15:50:28 -!- ymasory [~ymasory@mkb003.wlan.isc-seo.upenn.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:50:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-168-23.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:50:51 (A THE-ENVIRONMENT special operator is a bit different -- merely a bad idea for most programs to use.) 15:51:09 I don't think that dropping that reference is part of the proper tail call requirement, though it's a close relative. 15:51:21 eli's example isn't of proper tail recursion; it's of safety for space complexity. 15:51:44 right, i was assuming you could call it in a tail loop or something 15:51:48 (which I think ought to be required by anything calling itself a Scheme standard too) 15:51:52 dunno :) 15:52:01 yes your language is more precise indeed. 15:52:03 I completely +1 that. 15:52:13 (What Riastradh said.) 15:52:20 *cky* throws in a +1 also. 15:52:38 That's after having seen the total mess not having it can inflict on some code -- especially in a lazy setting. 15:53:31 It might be an implicit corollary of Dybvig's macro writer's bill of rights thing. 15:55:15 yeah i like that sentiment too. 15:59:17 It's not too late to add it to R7RS, though I need to re-read that paper. 16:04:45 monqy [~chap@pool-71-102-215-70.snloca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:06:49 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-220-98.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:27:58 -!- Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:34:24 jonrafkind 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18:21:24 alfa_y_omega [~alfa_y_om@90.166.231.220] has joined #scheme 18:21:58 rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-173-248-195-235.acanac.net] has joined #scheme 18:34:59 rgrinberg_ [~rgrinberg@66.49.145.15] has joined #scheme 18:36:12 -!- rgee [~rgrinberg@dsl-173-248-195-235.acanac.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:36:34 Jafet [~Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 18:38:59 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.135.128] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:39:57 -!- rgrinberg_ [~rgrinberg@66.49.145.15] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:40:24 rgee [~rgrinberg@66.49.145.15] has joined #scheme 18:40:25 X-Scale [email@2001:470:1f14:135b::2] has joined #scheme 18:41:45 masm [~masm@2.80.135.128] has joined #scheme 18:42:28 -!- masm [~masm@2.80.135.128] has quit [Client Quit] 18:43:34 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:49:46 superjudge [~superjudg@c83-250-198-227.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:52:31 masm [~masm@2.80.135.128] has joined #scheme 18:54:50 I've lately discovered that Racket's define-syntax-rule is one of my most-used shorthands. It's surprising to see how many one-branch syntax-rules macros there are. 19:02:03 cky, oh, absolutely. define-syntax-rule is a handy little tool. 19:02:56 It's as if Scheme defined only case-lambda, and then one amazing day, you get the (define (f x) ...) syntax. 19:03:34 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-223-12.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 19:05:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-164-2.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:12:57 Daemmerung++ 19:14:29 Oddity [~Oddity@unaffiliated/oddity] has joined #scheme 19:19:14 -!- gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:19:32 gnomon [~gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:22:45 HG` [~HG@p5DC05124.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:25:20 -!- bzzbzz [~franco@modemcable240.34-83-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:52 -!- superjudge 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shachaf elly rudybot DGASAU snorble askhader twem2 cky daedric mornfall duncanm futilius mario-goulart 08:33:15 -!- names: _p4bl0 joast C-Keen elflng snarkyboojum jimrees_ Quetzalcoatl_ tali713 augiedoggie Intensity gabot rapacity ecraven lusory kanru xale cbrannon stchang micro xian weinholt zbigniew felipe offby1 erg kba tizoc inimino ozzloy cipher stamourv foof aking Zol tonyg fds kandinski klutometis sir_lewk 08:44:15 -!- kennyd [~kennyd@93-139-19-226.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 08:47:23 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 08:48:32 cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has joined #scheme 08:49:51 kennyd [~kennyd@93-141-68-238.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #scheme 08:52:43 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 08:52:43 masm [~masm@bl15-133-116.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 09:14:42 -!- shachaf [~shachaf@204.109.63.130] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:16:00 wingo, ref your security implications of jit compilation post, afaik the best thing in jit (and any native code generator) for attackers is that you have a way of getting your data to executable memory and thus almost trivially bypass dep 09:16:19 nice blog btw :) 09:17:05 misterncw [~misterncw@82.71.241.25] has joined #scheme 09:19:39 -!- cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has left #scheme 09:20:20 cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has joined #scheme 09:20:56 oh, the linked interpreter exploitation paper is talking about that kind of stuff 09:21:13 -!- mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 09:21:17 araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has joined #scheme 09:21:17 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.44.29] has quit [Changing host] 09:21:17 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 09:22:55 Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has joined #scheme 09:24:02 aoh: thanks, and i agree; it's just frustrating because DEP is something to limit the impact of exploits in unsafe languages. the solution to unsafe languages is to not use them! 09:25:02 that said, it's hard to do so when your safe language is implemented in an unsafe language :P 09:25:18 well, you could use pre-scheme etc :) 09:25:43 indeed :) 09:27:02 but DEP+ASLR do manage to make exploitation one or two orders of magnitude harder, and sandoxes can provide the strong isolation we should have had in unsafe components from the beginning, so maybe those will help keep things together until we have rewritten everything in sche^Wjavascript 09:32:38 mmc [~michal@salm-office-nat.tomtomgroup.com] has joined #scheme 09:39:45 -!- cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has quit [Quit: I didn't set up UberScript properly!] 09:40:10 cd__mob [~carld@76.177.215.56] has joined #scheme 09:43:46 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-165-201.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:45:59 ffs [~garland@unaffiliated/ffs] has joined #scheme 10:19:11 gravicappa [~gravicapp@80.90.116.82] has joined 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[~pumpkin@unaffiliated/pumpkingod] has joined #scheme 14:33:46 -!- tab1ta [~tab1ta@95.239.52.234] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:35:24 rpg [~rpg@63.117.199.140] has joined #scheme 14:36:07 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:37:17 leppie [~lolcow@196-215-83-98.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 14:44:51 mmc [~michal@82-148-210-75.fiber.unet.nl] has joined #scheme 14:46:46 tab1ta [~tab1ta@80.180.183.43] has joined #scheme 14:53:37 sajith [~sajith@c-98-223-198-123.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 14:56:06 smtlaissezfaire_ [~smtlaisse@user-387hbid.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 14:56:08 eli: ? 14:56:30 Could anyone remind me what is repository address for Racket? 14:59:05 DGASAU: http://git.racket-lang.org/ 14:59:24 Thanks. 15:03:10 realitygrill [~realitygr@c-24-5-7-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 15:07:42 -!- Kajtek [~paniwladc@nat4-230.ghnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 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