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weinholt Leonidas rapacity klutometis chandler elf Adrinael rrm3 inhortte jyujin C-Keen dlouhy sloyd rmrfchik Pepe_ tltstc tizoc Vonunov erg DerGuteMoritz elly shardz duncanm 01:19:03 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-63-66.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 01:19:05 -!- Arelius [~user@208.80.117.82] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:19 Arelius` [~user@208.80.117.82] has joined #scheme 01:19:24 -!- TR2N [email@89.180.237.1] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:19:39 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:20:34 xwl [~user@125.34.168.40] has joined #scheme 01:20:43 geckosenator [~sean@adsl-71-132-217-215.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:20:45 -!- Sergio` [~positron@unaffiliated/sergio/x-8197433] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:21:15 -!- chandler [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:22:01 leppie [~lolcow@196-210-254-202.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 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[~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 01:32:39 klutometis pasted "slatex -> latex" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100288 01:33:11 does anyone find this representation of latex in scheme offensive? 01:33:36 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-79-63-66.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:34:17 chandler` [~n@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has joined #scheme 01:34:31 -!- copumpkin is now known as bro 01:34:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler` 01:34:47 -!- chandler` has set mode -b *!~n@new.unmutual.info 01:34:53 -!- chandler` has set mode -o chandler` 01:35:09 -!- chandler` is now known as chandler 01:35:34 it has the advantage that i can do templating and programmatic transformations as if it were sxml 01:35:40 for some reasons, the backslash character is the ugliest character in the ascii character set 01:37:08 -!- bro is now known as bropumpkin 01:37:17 jonrafkind: it's funny that you mention that; what's your opinion on tilde and caron? 01:37:33 carot? 01:37:35 ^ >? 01:37:42 tilde is pretty cool I think 01:37:51 carot is ok, 5/10 01:38:14 I rate the backslash 11\10 01:38:39 heh; yeah, sorry, caron is the inverse of carot, i guess. or maybe it should be called "circumflex". 01:38:40 probably i hate backslash so much because its the hardest key to type on my keyboard 01:38:54 kg4qxk [~bohanlon@pool-173-48-104-141.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:38:56 qwertz (sic)? 01:39:04 qwerty 01:39:12 so latex is just like a torture device 01:40:03 do you also have a similar aversion to pipes? 01:40:07 shofetim [~user@97-121-228-161.blng.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 01:40:12 Why is it difficult to type a backslash on your QWERTY keyboard? 01:40:25 It's usually unshifted, isn't it? 01:40:33 i use my ring finger to type a pipe but my pinky to type backslash 01:40:49 why.. i dont know 01:41:02 Ah; it's more out of the way on some keyboards than on this one. 01:41:28 its one column to the left of the extreme right on my keyboard 01:42:05 i seem to remember typing on a european keyboard once, where backslash was only accessible over Alt Gr; that was hellish. 01:42:58 indeed; i wasn't just imagining things: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Germany.svg 01:43:19 Alt Gr Eszett 01:44:08 That's good evidence that the umlaut-modified characters ought to have been chords. 01:44:27 jcowan_ [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:45:51 anyone have any comments, by the way, on my latex-in-scheme representation? 01:46:22 it's awkward, but seemed preserve the feel of latex; or at least is no less awkward than latex 01:46:50 except that the environment delimiter, {}, has to be piped in chicken 01:47:15 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:47:48 @-attributes are a loan from sxml; maybe i should have used [] to be consistent with environments 01:47:59 indeed; but those have to be piped, too 01:50:12 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 01:54:53 klutometis: are you familiar with Scribble? 01:57:12 -!- curi_ [~curi@adsl-99-114-139-86.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:57:33 offby1: it's plt's literate-programming thing, isn't it? 01:57:38 for peppering scheme with latex? 01:57:55 *eli* looks at klutometis's paste 01:58:07 *eli* throws up a little 01:58:27 Well, look who has an opinion! 01:58:50 Not that it isn't quite ugly. :-) 01:59:12 (I guess you can call it "opinion"... I call it stomach acids, mixed with rotting food.) 01:59:23 klutometis: You should look at scribble. Really. 01:59:33 eli: oh, i thought it was an allergy to occam's razor ;) 01:59:35 klutometis: No, it's not a literate programming thing, although that was one of the things built on top of it. 01:59:42 eli: oh, interesting 02:00:01 But the first thing it is, is a nice reader syntax for text. 02:00:26 klutometis: http://barzilay.org/misc/scribble-reader.pdf 02:01:01 Zarutian [~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is] has joined #scheme 02:01:38 why use \ if you are quoting everything anyway... 02:03:07 eli: nice paper; i see you guys had to deal with spurious unquotes, too 02:03:35 klutometis: When you deal with text, sooner or later you have to deal with them anyway. 02:03:58 sladegen: good point; i initially did not, but realized i needed a way to distinguish between macros and arguments to macros 02:04:05 If you read it, I mention a number of systems that call then "quasi-strings", which have some made up syntax for unquote inside such a string. 02:04:29 right, that's a clever decive, actually 02:05:12 device* 02:06:08 my domain is latex-specific, though; but you guys solve some general problems in elegant ways 02:06:25 i mainly need a latex parse-tree which i can generate, if need be, from feral latex sources 02:06:32 I don't see any reason why the Scribble syntax can't be applied to the LaTeX-generation problem domain. 02:06:39 doesn't need to be beautiful or even human readable 02:06:51 chandler: sure, it's a superset, isn't it? 02:07:00 Oh, you're *parsing* it. 02:07:05 *chandler* backs away slowly. 02:07:16 That's a fearsome task, son. 02:07:30 heh; indeed. 02:08:24 klutometis: To write that paper what I did is the following: 02:08:43 * Use a scribble reader customized to use \ as the magic character, 02:09:15 * Use a PLT language where (foo x ...) is printed in a special way, when `foo' is unbound, and when it is written in scribble form. 02:09:37 (That's at least the highlevel rough description.) 02:10:01 * The special way makes it look exactly like the source form. 02:10:26 Now the result of that is that if I write \foo{blah}, then that gets printed as "\foo{blah}" -- so latext stuffs work the same. 02:10:53 But in addition I can define a `foo' function, and therefore \foo{blah} gets evaluated as (foo "blah"). 02:11:09 The bottom line is that I get a much saner language, and I can use Scheme to extend latex. 02:11:29 And in case anyone wants to point how that was done -- 02:11:42 I know that it can be done in many ways; I implemented probably 5 different such things. 02:12:02 But none worked as nicely as the scribble syntax -- where most of the benefit is that it's still a scheme program. 02:12:16 (But all of that depends on a good number of plt voodoo.) 02:12:28 fantastic; maybe scribble warrants a look, after all. i had mis-filed it under "literate programming" and rejected it. 02:12:33 looks like much more. 02:12:56 The story about literate programming is that we have an implementation of it. 02:13:02 I'm using it right now for things that have little to do with literate programming. 02:13:11 It was used mostly to show-case what you can do with PLT Scheme. 02:13:22 It uses the scribble syntax because it's convenient to do so. 02:13:34 It also uses the scribble documentation system because it's there. 02:13:47 But scribble definitely doesn't revolve around literate programming in any way. 02:14:11 (And I personally detest real literate programming as a concept.) 02:14:14 And it's no bad thing that it was convenient to use Scribble for it; that's good evidence of the expressiveness and generality of the system. 02:14:56 wow, good news all around; it looks like ad-hoc sxml-latex templates may not be the way to go, after all. 02:16:07 At the reader level, the scribble view is why use any such ad-hoc representation when sexprs can do just fine -- as long as you have a slightly more convenient syntax for them... 02:18:16 thanks, eli, chandler 02:34:11 -!- foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 02:37:21 asarch [~asarch@189.188.156.5] has joined #scheme 02:39:53 foof [~user@lain.inunome.com] has joined #scheme 02:40:38 eli: regarding scribble, i was looking at some of my latex papers and presentations 02:40:51 90% of the time, whitespace doesn't matter at all 02:40:53 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:42:27 but in the other cases i wantuse \alltt{...} to preserve the exact spacing found in the file 02:42:57 neilv [~user@dsl092-071-030.bos1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #scheme 02:43:37 and if i want to block off sections within that (e.g. for emphasizing one section of a chunk of code), wrapping it in some other formatter should not affect the spacing 02:43:42 hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:44:01 snarkyboojum [~snarkyboo@110-174-43-105.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:44:32 -!- hohoho [~hohoho@ntkngw227224.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:33 foof: I definitely *never* wanted to preserve the spacing in a block of text -- it's much better to add an explicit margin for the whole alltt environment than tweaking the spaces in the source. 02:45:37 i'm talking about latex here - if you don't use alltt, even the indentation is lost, which is unusable 02:46:09 now, if i were to use scribble, it would strip only the leading common spacing, which for simple cases is fine 02:46:33 but in my files, nesting \foo{...} commands is the norm, not the exception 02:47:47 geckosenator [~sean@adsl-71-132-217-215.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 02:47:51 foof pasted "documentation snippet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/100289 02:48:05 for example, like in that snippet 02:49:10 the scribble rules would strip the leading indentation of the inner function that i was trying to emphasize, which is definitely not what i want 02:51:35 -!- geckosenator [~sean@adsl-71-132-217-215.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:51:46 so, i'm thinking that for my own doc system, i want it to preserve all space by default (with possible exceptions for newlines immediately following { or preceding }) 02:52:49 timj_ [~timj@e176195161.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 02:53:03 and then there will be commands like \stripspace and \indentspace etc. to strip all leading spaces, or only the common leading spaces, etc. in a configurable manner 02:56:10 -!- timj__ [~timj@e176193060.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]