17:26:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 17:26:18 17:26:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot marcoecc karme MrFahrenheit marijn mmc JoelMcCracken synx araujo Adamant saint_cypher snorble dzhus lisptastic schmir parolang sstrickl lusory bweaver incubot stepnem Daemmeru` tomaw_ adzuci mreggen sepult nothingHappens MichaelRaskin _nofear cky_ qeb`away nutmegmagi ski zk ski_ masm gabot blackened` Axioplase_ jao Nshag reprore mario-goulart rdd leppie|work yosafbridge Edico xwl_ attila_lendvai eno pbusser kniu jay-mccarthy 17:26:18 -!- names: mathk pjb Open Prael Modius tjafk Terminus asnark sphex TR2N Obfuscate Zuu ASau mdkess dmoerner bipt nasloc__ Fufie Adrinael emma XTL elf re-l Mr_Awesome tabe rudybot partisan cmatei nowhere_man makmanalp foof drwho klutometis mornfall tizoc bzzbzz ve saccade bunz brx sjamaan alexsuraci specbot minion alaricsp Khisanth samth Armageddon00 j0ni offby1 REPLeffect_ awarring jyujin slxix Pepe_ borism tltstc eli felipe _Jordan_ kencausey erg 17:26:18 -!- names: nicktastic duncanm gnomon ecraven zbrown z0d Kusanagi rotty_ mhoye Arelius` clog olejorgenb ironChicken joast C-Keen jayne ray zbigniew peddie elly chandler rmrfchik mbishop Leonidas ineiros guenthr roderic rapacity dlouhy tarbo mrd` 17:27:47 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 17:30:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:20 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 17:31:12 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:16 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 17:34:45 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:44 karme: There's http://chicken.wiki.br/eggref/4/json. Don't know if it is easy to port. 17:36:36 Only if gauche has packrat 17:36:43 mario-goulart: thanks - but afair it was diffuclt 17:36:52 ~s/diffuclt/difficult 17:37:13 the ones on the json.org page all did look too difficult for me 17:37:19 OTOH, packrat isn't that big 17:37:35 i just want a quick workaorund 17:37:43 gauche has a json parser in its svn 17:37:50 but at the moment i can't get it to work 17:38:33 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 17:38:37 but maybe the easiest solution would be to go back to an older gauche version :-( 17:38:37 Maybe post a bugreport to gauche's mailinglists? 17:39:52 already did 17:40:32 karme: there's also a snow package for it. Don't know if gauche supports snow packages. 17:40:53 heh @ snow 17:41:05 It never really caught on, did it? 17:41:18 http://snow.iro.umontreal.ca/?viewpkg=json 17:41:39 sjamaan: I guess it didn't (not surprised). 17:41:50 jonrafkind [n=jon@crystalis.cs.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:41:57 Dawgmatix [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:17 Why not surprised? 17:43:32 You know... It's scheme. :-) 17:44:43 heh 17:44:56 that one looks at least simple 17:48:22 hmm make-table? 17:49:06 -!- parolang [n=user@keholmes.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:43 -!- dzhus [n=sphinx@95-26-221-186.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:51 looks like some dictionary/hash-table 17:50:31 I guess they are gambit's hash-tables 17:51:45 gosh> (for-each print (with-input-from-string "{\"a\":1}" (cut json-read (current-input-port)))) 17:51:45 (a . 1) 17:51:49 juhu :-)) 17:52:19 :-) 17:53:13 -!- mmc [n=mima@esprx02x.nokia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:12 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable072.42-37-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 17:56:26 now unfortunately the cpl license sucks 17:56:48 ah wait cpl != cpal? 17:57:13 both are not ideal 17:57:49 cpl? 17:58:23 crappy programming language? 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host)] 10:41:16 loads of iatropic excitement up in here 10:41:56 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@125-239-134-95.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:41:57 _nofear [n=maxwell@189.115.3.102] has joined #scheme 10:52:32 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 11:01:41 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 11:06:41 mmc1 [n=mima@esprx01x.nokia.com] has joined #scheme 11:08:02 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 11:09:23 visof [n=visof@41.238.235.79] has joined #scheme 11:16:24 FufieToo [n=poff@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #scheme 11:32:12 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest29642 11:34:04 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-40.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [] 11:34:13 -!- Guest29642 is now known as klutometis 11:34:43 alvatar [n=alvatar@18.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 11:34:45 hi! 11:35:17 heya alvatar! 11:35:18 newbie q: I recall that I read something about a . notation for the cons operation 11:35:24 hi elderK :) 11:35:32 rudybot_: later tell Riastradh i know you want to disclaim srfi-43, but isn't the following an error? (vector-unfold (lambda (i x) (values x (- x 1))) 10 0) => #(0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -8) 11:35:33 minion: memo for Riastradh: klutometis told me to tell you: i know you want to disclaim srfi-43, but isn't the following an error? (vector-unfold (lambda (i x) (values x (- x 1))) 10 0) => #(0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -8) 11:35:33 Remembered. I'll tell Riastradh when he/she/it next speaks. 11:35:41 aye, instead of saying (cons a b) you can say '(a . b) 11:35:44 afaik 11:35:54 with the '? 11:35:55 rudybot_: later tell Riastradh it seems like it should be #(0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -9) 11:35:55 minion: memo for Riastradh: klutometis told me to tell you: it seems like it should be #(0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -9) 11:35:56 Remembered. I'll tell Riastradh when he/she/it next speaks. 11:36:06 yup, alvatar, afaik. 11:36:10 elderK: :) thanks 11:36:17 Your best bet would be to try it out though :) 11:36:36 ie, (eq? (cdr '(a . b)) 'b) 11:37:01 I was trying :) 11:37:14 ^_^ All good. 11:37:22 Man :P There is a party happening two houses down from here, 11:37:23 louuuud. 11:37:30 -!- schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:37:35 Alas... 11:37:38 *elderK* reads more about Unicode 11:40:16 elderK: your procedure return #t, which I believe means is right as it tells that cdr is 'b, but this only works with "literals" (don't know how you call this in scheme) I guess 11:40:33 "literals" -> I mean not expressions but constant values 11:40:38 aye 11:40:53 if you wanted something like (cons (some-proc ...) (some-proc2 ...)) 11:40:59 yep 11:41:03 you could say `(,(...) . ,(...)) 11:41:12 :O 11:41:27 I think I need to read another book besides SICP 11:41:32 well, quasiquote :) 11:41:38 SICP is very nice but doesn't show you these tricks! 11:41:44 nor macros 11:41:54 Quasiquote "quotes" the entire form that it... prefixes? 11:42:11 The cool thing about qq, is that you can selectively enable "not-quoted" things. 11:42:30 so `(,(some-proc ...) . ,(some-proc2 ...)) is the same as the (cons ....) equivalent. 11:42:46 with the , you enable not-quoted inside the quasi-quoted? 11:42:51 but then you have to ask yourself, with the addition of `, and ., are you really saving any space? :P 11:42:54 yup 11:43:04 veerrrryy nice 11:43:13 you are right about that, but still... veeeery nice :D 11:43:20 ie: if you wanted the value of variable x, you could say `(,x . ...) 11:43:27 TSPL 11:43:28 if you wanted the symbol x, `(x . ...) 11:43:46 I understand :) 11:43:48 Yup, the Scheme Programming Language, by R.Kent Dybvig. You can find that online for free. 11:43:53 It's pretty good as a reference :) 11:44:03 that's my next reading then! 11:44:09 Hop to it, man! :) 11:44:11 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9C9AAE7F] has joined #scheme 11:44:25 thanks for your help, elderK, Prael :) 11:44:37 np man, happy to be of use :) 11:47:05 http://www.scheme.com/tspl/ 11:47:20 A little Chez-centric here and there, but an awesome reference indeed. 11:47:27 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 11:48:33 Prael: got it! :) 12:12:56 schmir [n=schmir@mail.brainbot.com] has joined #scheme 12:19:13 luz [n=davids@189.122.90.116] has joined #scheme 12:26:31 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:36:51 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 12:38:29 -!- brx_ is now known as brx 12:51:49 o/ 12:51:53 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@18.148.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 12:56:44 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] 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Edico dnm_ MrFahrenheit Foofie leppie Daemmerung alexsuraci Jafet MichaelRaskin Checkie tjaway bytecolor copumpkin Sergio` uman cky ski_ xwl nullpo elderK mornfall d3z stepnem saccade ve specbot bipt jimrees synx REPLeffect_ yosafbridge incubot Mr_Awesome samth_away alaricsp minion Khisanth Belaf gnomon olejorgenb z0d TR2N zbigniew Zuu rdd tabe drwhat snorble ASau drwho eno adzuci_ 11:35:31 -!- names: dfeuer_ mrd` dlouhy rapacity roderic guenthr Leonidas mbishop rmrfchik chandler peddie joast ironChicken zbrown ecraven erg jyujin nasloc__ dmoerner Obfuscate Terminus Axioplase_ nothingHappens lusory mhoye offby1 blackened` cmatei Armageddon00 nego tizoc awarrington klutometis BunzOfSteel makmanal1 Nshag sjamaan bzzbzz sphex j0ni nowhereman Pepe_ nicktastic ineiros Adrinael xwl_ rudybot brx kencausey _Jordan_ felipe eli tltstc slxix re-l 11:35:31 -!- names: elf XTL jay-mccarthy kniu gabot tomaw_ lisppaste C-Keen antoszka qeb`away ski Prael duncanm Kusanagi rotty_ Arelius` clog ray elly 11:37:15 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:09 Len__ [n=Len@77.124.126.224] has joined #scheme 11:40:01 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 11:40:03 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 11:40:11 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 11:41:34 blard [n=blard@p508EDE9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 11:42:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:42:08 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:43:28 i want to use the plt benchmark package 11:43:35 but i get this issue http://planet.plt-scheme.org/trac/ticket/219 11:43:43 is there a alternative or any fix? 11:49:12 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:30 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:55:48 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 11:55:55 dsmith [n=dsmith@cpe-173-88-196-177.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 12:01:01 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:01:36 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 12:12:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 12:13:55 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit ["Coyote finally caught me"] 12:14:03 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 12:26:15 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:26:32 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 12:33:53 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit ["Leaving..."] 12:36:23 masm [n=masm@bl10-244-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:39:46 rudybot: eval (number->string -129 2) 12:39:46 klutometis: your sandbox is ready 12:39:46 klutometis: ; Value: "-10000001" 12:39:55 incubot: (number->string -129 2) 12:39:56 11111111111111111111111101111111 12:40:01 dammit, chicken 12:47:49 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:44 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 12:56:02 rudybot: -#o0 12:56:03 klutometis: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 12:56:07 rudybot: eval -#o0 12:56:07 klutometis: error: reference to undefined identifier: -#o0 12:56:16 rudybot: eval (- #o0) 12:56:16 klutometis: ; Value: 0 12:56:20 rudybot: eval -#o1 12:56:20 klutometis: error: reference to undefined identifier: -#o1 12:57:04 iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 13:00:29 wingo [n=wingo@40.Red-79-156-67.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:07:01 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-45.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:07:45 klutometis: maybe "#o-1" ? 13:09:33 rudybot: #o-1 13:09:33 klutometis: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 13:09:41 rudybot: eval #o-1 13:09:41 klutometis: ; Value: -1 13:09:48 Belaf: oh, good call; 13:10:33 I happened to read the number parsing code for chibi this morning :) 13:11:20 nice; i've even implemented a complete r5rs lexer, yet that didn't occur to me 13:11:26 heh 13:14:32 -!- mathk [n=mathk@lns-bzn-27-82-248-63-206.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:16:27 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:16:40 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:18:30 hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 13:24:37 Mine was beginner's luck :) 13:27:20 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 13:27:46 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:27:55 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:32:25 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 13:33:17 -!- visof [n=visof@41.238.235.79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:51 -!- hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 13:36:36 -!- ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:12 ASau [n=user@83.69.227.32] has joined #scheme 13:37:26 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 13:46:47 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:03 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:01:19 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:25 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:03:01 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:09:40 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:11:18 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 14:15:47 -!- hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:02 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:18:13 hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 14:19:19 speaking of lexers, is .. a valid identifier ? 14:20:18 _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 14:20:18 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:04 cmatei: yes; or do you have evidence to the contrary? 14:22:11 incubot: (let ((.. 'harro)) ..) 14:22:11 harro 14:22:20 well, numbers can start with a . 14:22:54 and r5rs mentions only ... as 'peculiar identifier', unless I'm reading that wrong 14:24:13 cmatei: exactly; +, - and ... 14:25:07 2 dots vs 3 dots 14:25:20 unless ... means "and others" 14:25:57 the point is: . is ambiguously , , etc.; but .. disambiguates it followed by, say, or other things 14:26:19 ... is a unique form reserved for syntax 14:26:54 though i guess that's not entirely true: 14:27:01 incubot: (let ((... 'oh-yes?)) ...) 14:27:02 oh-yes? 14:27:11 it does have a special meaning when working with macros, though 14:27:51 i didn't get to macros, yet 14:32:56 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-98-111.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 14:34:10 i guess i'll ignore it for now. i still can't see which production rules would make .. an identifier, nor a reason why it couldn't be 14:34:52 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:38:39 hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 14:44:25 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-28-19.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:51 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EDE9F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:51 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 14:53:49 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.155.211.102] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:07 -!- hkBst__ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 15:19:42 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 15:20:03 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:22:17 -!- bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:54 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:41:03 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 15:42:01 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:15 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:47:37 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:52:40 mreggen [n=mreggen@cm-84.215.18.49.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 15:55:00 bytecolor [n=user@32.156.182.65] has joined #scheme 16:01:42 steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 16:02:14 hi people. I use GUILE as interpreter. Is it possible to use the content of a variable as the name of a function? 16:02:39 for example (define x "display") and then somehow (x "hello world) 16:03:13 string->symbol and apply, probably 16:03:17 rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 16:03:18 Why you'd want to is another thing 16:03:45 probably there a better methods. I'm just exploring what is possible. I am not even 100% clear about my problem :) 16:03:50 mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has joined #scheme 16:04:04 (define x display) 16:05:02 Jafet: but I have a large amount of data, pairs of strings, maybe even lists ... hm, how to tell. this is a bit complicated. I could write the exact problem down here. 16:05:09 alvatar [n=alvatar@202.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 16:05:34 Perhaps you could. 16:07:39 hm.. I just tried and I cannot. At least not in english. But I'll try what I can do with two new information. thanks. 16:09:28 parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has joined #scheme 16:12:25 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:14:10 ah, now I have a simple description of my problem: I have a huge list of objects that a logical pairs. Each first string is unique, each second string is arbitry. I want to access the second string with the name of the first. But the order they come in is not the same each time the program runs. so (define string1 (procedureToGetString2)) will not do. 16:14:24 arbitry=arbitrary 16:14:41 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:47 a logical = are logical 16:15:18 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:15:43 thats why I want to make the first string from string to symbol(?), I guess. 16:17:07 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:20 steele^, Check out string->symbol 16:20:26 I just did. ((string->symbol "display") "Hallo Welt") does not work 16:20:36 (#f Wrong type to apply: ~S (display) #f) 16:20:53 The symbol "display" is not a procedure 16:20:58 You can't apply it 16:22:14 afaik there is no string->procedure 16:22:23 steele^, if you want an associative data structure, say you want an associative data structure 16:22:26 you have eval 16:22:29 There isn't, but you can use eval 16:22:40 (which is ugly and shouldn't be used) 16:23:26 I am not a real programmer (but a musician) so I am not fixed to one solution that came into my mind. If there is a better way I will want to use that 16:23:59 Jafet: Maybe I want an you want an associative data structure? 16:24:12 Defining data mapping using ad-hoc procedures reminds me of horrible code I worked with in some language. I can't remember if it was javascript or some such 16:24:42 steele^, do you mean you want a mapping that lets you retrieve string data with string keys? 16:24:47 An alist is probably the appropriate way to do this 16:25:22 Well, he starts with an alist. 16:25:31 A hash table sounds appropriate 16:25:46 rudybot: (alist-ref "foo" '(("foo" . "bar")) string=?) 16:25:46 sjamaan: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 16:25:52 rudybot: eval (alist-ref "foo" '(("foo" . "bar")) string=?) 16:25:53 sjamaan: your sandbox is ready 16:25:53 sjamaan: error: reference to undefined identifier: alist-ref 16:25:57 ah, fuck it 16:26:10 *sjamaan* goes afk 16:27:11 rudybot: eval (assoc "foo" '(("foo" . "bar"))) 16:27:12 masm: your scheme sandbox is ready 16:27:12 masm: ; Value: ("foo" . "bar") 16:27:24 rudybot: eval (cdr (assoc "foo" '(("foo" . "bar")))) 16:27:24 masm: ; Value: "bar" 16:28:27 steele^: You want an hash table. Look it up in the docs. 16:29:10 thank you 16:29:11 all 16:30:26 http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Hash-Tables.html 16:33:12 Modius [n=Modius@cpe-70-123-130-159.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:33:30 -!- wingo [n=wingo@40.Red-79-156-67.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:10 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 16:45:55 BW^- [i=Miranda@m90-130-197-227.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 16:46:08 i want to sort '((3 4) (3 7) (3 6) (1 2) (1 9) (1 5) (1 10) (4 3) (4 2)) using SRFI 95. 16:46:37 i want the sorting to be done in such a way that car has primary priority in determining the sorting outcome, and cadr has secondary. 16:47:27 any idea how do? 16:50:35 BW^-: dunno srfi 95, but perhaps it defines a "key" keyword 16:50:56 here's how PLT's built-in sort does it 16:51:30 hm, gotta think about it now 16:51:48 :) interesting question isn't it 16:52:05 i think the procedure you pass is defined as "less?". 16:52:16 yeah 16:52:17 so then, how do a procedure that compares those two and says if one is less 16:52:33 suddenly it became logical. 16:52:41 -!- steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 16:53:26 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 17:01:27 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 17:02:34 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:06:31 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:45 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:09:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:11:11 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:47 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:13:18 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:17:49 will you need two passes to sort that list? 17:18:17 first on the cadr, then on the car 17:18:22 naw 17:18:44 you can write a comparison function that says "if the cars differ, then compare on them; otherwise, compare on the cdrs 17:18:46 " 17:20:45 bytecolo` [n=user@32.152.135.131] has joined #scheme 17:20:57 rudybot_: eval (sort '((3 4) (3 7) (3 6) (1 2) (1 9) (1 5) (1 10) (4 3) (4 2)) (lambda (a b) (cond ((< (first a) (first b)) #t) ((> (first a) (first b)) #f) (else (< (second a) (second b)))))) 17:21:00 rudybot: eval (sort '((3 4) (3 7) (3 6) (1 2) (1 9) (1 5) (1 10) (4 3) (4 2)) (lambda (a b) (cond ((< (first a) (first b)) #t) ((> (first a) (first b)) #f) (else (< (second a) (second b)))))) 17:21:00 *offby1: your scheme sandbox is ready 17:21:01 *offby1: ; Value: ((1 2) (1 5) (1 9) (1 10) (3 4) (3 6) (3 7) (4 2) (4 3)) 17:21:06 silly IRC client 17:21:16 I suspect there's a less awkward way to phrase that, but there ya go 17:21:57 hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5B55B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 17:22:11 from glancing at srfi-95 for two seconds, I suspect that'll work as-is 17:23:20 ah, the second clause 17:23:51 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.156.182.65] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:24:12 -!- bytecolo` is now known as bytecolor 17:25:18 rudybot: eval (sort '((3 4) (3 7) (3 6) (1 2) (1 9) (1 5) (1 10) (4 3) (4 2)) (lambda (a b) (cond ((equal? (first a) (first b)) (< (second a) (second b))) (else (< (first a) (first b)))))) 17:25:18 *offby1: ; Value: ((1 2) (1 5) (1 9) (1 10) (3 4) (3 6) (3 7) (4 2) (4 3)) 17:25:19 I never noticed the #:cache-keys? parameter to the PLT sort. Neato. 17:25:23 slightly less awkward 17:25:27 Daemmerung: hold on 17:25:50 offby1: Bah. (lambda (a b) (< (car a) (car a))) will work most of the times and is much more readable. 17:25:51 Daemmerung: (define (shuffled list) (sort list < #:key (lambda (_) (random)) #:cache-keys? #t)) 17:26:04 offby1: exactly. 17:26:07 masm: but that won't sort on the cdrs 17:26:11 Daemmerung: that's from eli 17:26:16 *Daemmerung* hangs in there, baby 17:26:22 "most of the times" I said. 17:26:33 masm: ah. well, sure. 17:26:38 *offby1* backs away slowly 17:26:39 :) 17:31:13 -!- _JFT_ [n=_JFT_@modemcable204.87-177-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:41:38 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:42:29 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:48:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 17:54:55 Continuation mark key's are compared with eq?, right? 17:55:10 keys 18:00:25 *offby1* stares blankly 18:01:53 (with-continuation-mark 18:01:54 (list 1) (list 1) 18:01:54 (continuation-mark-set->list (current-continuation-marks) (list 1))) returns null. So, they are compared with eq?, I assume. 18:02:26 *offby1* stares blankly some more 18:02:28 if you say so 18:03:16 The PLT documentation doesn't state anything regarding this issue. 18:08:24 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:10:42 sounds like a job for eli! 18:11:12 eli knows all and tells all 18:12:13 Maybe it is eqv?. It would be unsafe to use numbers or chars as keys, otherwise. 18:13:29 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@m90-130-197-227.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 18:18:46 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 18:19:19 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:20 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 18:38:12 masm: loooks like eq? to me. mzscheme/src/fun.c!extract_cc_marks() 18:39:24 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 18:40:17 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:17 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-53-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- olejorgenb [i=bronner@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:18 -!- gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:40:56 gnomon [n=gnomon@CPE0022158a8221-CM000f9f776f96.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 18:41:23 uman [n=uman@unaffiliated/uman] has joined #scheme 18:42:28 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 18:42:53 *offby1* been down so long it looks like eq? to him 18:44:06 Yep, looks like it. Thanks, Daemmerung. 18:45:26 emma [n=em@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-53-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 18:46:16 samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:48:10 -!- nego [n=nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:23 nego [n=nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:40 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-53-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:40 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:48:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:48:55 samth_away [n=samth@punge.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 18:49:01 olejorgenb [i=bronner@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #scheme 18:49:01 alaricsp [n=alaric@relief.warhead.org.uk] has joined #scheme 18:49:11 Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-53-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #scheme 18:50:13 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:57:04 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:41 -!- hkBst___ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Connection refused] 18:58:08 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 18:58:25 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 18:59:57 Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:03:37 -!- iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 19:04:13 iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:13:58 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 19:18:42 -!- iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [] 19:27:43 jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet3382.mobile.carnet.hr] has joined #scheme 19:32:00 Daemmeru` [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 19:32:10 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:12 bipt [i=bpt@cpe-075-182-095-009.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:37:23 cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 19:42:36 Is there a way to access the bytes of memory storing a particular list? 19:42:38 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@vipnet3382.mobile.carnet.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:42:55 I'm interested in this to send lists over a network connection (as UDP packets). 19:43:15 it has pointers in it 19:44:26 which means that the data is fragmented in memory, and so this technique won't work, right? 19:44:46 yeah 19:46:23 I want a function like "(send-list socket list)". 19:48:15 iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 19:53:22 steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has joined #scheme 19:53:36 hey, how do I test if a var is unbound or bound? 20:00:17 cmerck: why not just "write" the list? 20:00:23 i.e., serialize it 20:00:30 then have the receiver use "read" 20:01:10 nowhere_man [n=pierre@lec67-4-82-235-57-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:15 mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 20:05:44 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 20:06:47 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:06:59 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:59 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 20:07:38 -!- alvatar [n=alvatar@202.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["leaving"] 20:11:51 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:12:16 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:12:55 offby1, that would make too much sense :). Thanks. 20:13:27 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 20:14:38 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 20:17:40 -!- steele^ [i=steele@beegees.mtveurope.org] has left #scheme 20:26:59 hrm 20:27:02 very quiet in here, oddly 20:28:55 *elly* tempts fate 20:29:27 -!- synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:29:38 -!- mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:31:21 -!- Daemmeru` is now known as Daemmerung 20:32:13 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:46 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 20:32:46 *offby1* stifles hisself 20:32:59 synx [i=synx@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 20:34:24 hello offby1 20:34:26 The sun is shining, yet the laptop batteries are kaputt. What to do, what to do?? 20:34:36 *Daemmerung* does the obvious thing, duh 20:34:50 :P 20:34:54 start hacking? 20:35:06 wash the car? 20:35:22 see if the garlic you planted in October is ready to harvest? 20:35:30 Read /Bridge of Birds/ in the sun. See y'all. 20:37:00 enjoy :) 20:37:16 -!- Poeir [n=Poeir@c-98-228-48-133.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:45:22 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 20:45:37 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 20:45:59 *offby1* belatedly remembers that he lives not too far from Mr Ung 20:50:48 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 20:50:53 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:51:00 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 20:52:07 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:24 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:23 -!- parolang [n=user@8e4a01246100775874c4f448e9887093.oregonrd-wifi-1261.amplex.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:59 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:17 marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 21:08:34 offby1: about 400km at the moment, but I'm visiting the big city next weekend. 21:08:47 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 21:09:28 who's Mr. Ung? 21:10:29 Dammer Ung, of course. 21:10:36 er, Daemmer Ung. 21:11:51 *nod 21:12:39 BW^- [i=Miranda@m90-130-197-227.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:12:43 offby1: thank you 21:14:16 -!- snorble [n=none@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 21:15:31 partisan [n=partisan@121.124.124.117] has joined #scheme 21:16:25 snorble [n=snorble@s83-179-14-105.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 21:16:39 *nod again 21:22:59 incubot: after doing fifty handstand pushups, many capillaries burst around my eyes and forehead 21:23:03 drscheme is pretty. I hope this isn't like the cs version of girl pushups 21:25:50 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:26:19 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:26:31 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:26:32 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 21:27:46 masm: Of course it's compared with `eq?' -- the whole point is that you can (and mostly should) use a private key that other code can't access. 21:29:01 jao [n=jao@232.Red-83-50-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:33:47 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-98-212-125-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:35:33 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 21:46:51 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:20 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 21:51:40 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-29-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:29 NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:56 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:17 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@m90-130-197-227.cust.tele2.se] has left #scheme 21:54:24 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 21:54:34 -!- Nshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-53-82-65-38-59.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:30 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:34 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-40.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 22:02:08 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:09:47 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:11:46 Is the 'applicative order' as described in the sicp, a lazy evaluator? 22:14:55 applicative order means the procedure arguments are evaluated when the procedure is applied. you've got it backwards :) 22:17:05 Just the way the text is read kind of got me. I am used to haskell. 22:18:46 See 4.2.2. 22:19:10 (or work your way through until 4.2.2, better) 22:19:49 I will try to keep 4.2.2 in mind then. 22:21:55 marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has joined #scheme 22:23:12 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit ["Client Quit"] 22:26:08 -!- Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:33:20 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 22:41:34 -!- marijn [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 22:43:25 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 22:49:46 mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has joined #scheme 22:52:08 sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:55:03 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:00 [Global Notice] Hi all. As you may be aware we've been having a somewhat annoying problem with freenode ops hassling people about spam bots. 22:57:58 yeah, quit hassling me, downpressor-man 22:58:53 I've never seen any of these spam bot messages. 22:59:04 Is scheme discriminated against? 22:59:20 eli: you are not in #haskell, #freenode, #irssi or ##crawl apparently :P 22:59:33 those are ones I am in that have had spam attacks 22:59:38 elly: Should I be? 22:59:43 probably not? 22:59:52 of those, the latter three are utter cesspools 23:00:22 One more reason for me to stay clear of ##crawl, thanks 23:00:32 they hit #emacs too 23:00:36 and I think #git 23:00:37 What's ##crawl? 23:00:41 so, yes: we are discriminated against. 23:00:52 *eli* joined #freenode, to see how cesspools look like 23:00:55 eli: a roguelike game. 23:01:39 funny, I've known what cesspools looked like for a while, and never had any urge to refresh the memory 23:02:57 eli: the about channel for a roguelike 23:03:45 *elly* -> 23:03:56 *offby1* <- 23:04:35 OK, so I'm in there too, still no spam. 23:04:48 *offby1* goes out to clean the grill 23:05:19 -!- marijn_ [n=hkBst@41.184.82.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:42 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-78-35-194-241.netcologne.de] has quit [Success] 23:10:57 In SICP, Exercise 1.6, it says, "Alyssa P. Hacker doesn't see why if needs to be provided as a special form. ``Why can't I just define it as an ordinary procedure in terms of cond?'' she asks. Alyssa's friend Eva Lu Ator claims this can indeed be done, and she defines a new version of if:" It essentially constructs a new-if procedure using cond and uses new-if with the newton method sqrt iterator with it. I notic 23:10:57 both if and new-if behave the same in drscheme, would it be different in mit scheme? 23:12:25 I doubt they really behave the same. 23:13:13 Well the result is the same, but I was expecting something to be different in the evaluation methods. 23:13:27 Like new-if evaluating both arguments or something like that 23:13:39 teheee, my scheme-in-c is alive: (factorial 6) => 720 23:15:46 iaefai: I think that's exactly what's going on. 23:16:06 But in many cases, you won't notice that both arms are being evaluated, since most expressions just return a value, but don't do anything obvious. 23:16:13 offby1: I suppose it might not matter ultimately. 23:16:13 Try putting calls to "display" in each arm. 23:16:18 Is there a way to time things 23:16:21 iaefai: ultimately it's quite important. 23:16:21 display? 23:16:29 Well I mean in this specific case 23:16:36 rudybot: eval (if 'huzzah (display "Huzzah") (display "SOmething else")) 23:16:37 *offby1: ; stdout: "Huzzah" 23:16:46 iaefai: oh, well, this case is just an exercise :) 23:19:11 iaefai: have you tried your new-if with sqrt-iter? 23:19:21 Daemmerung: yes 23:19:29 And what did you observe? 23:19:42 The results are the same 23:19:47 *Daemmerung* raises all three eyebrows 23:20:00 I am using drscheme if that makes any difference. 23:20:04 You might want to double-check what you've copied from the text. 23:20:26 okay, I will do so now 23:21:10 rudybot: init r5rs 23:21:10 Daemmerung: your r5rs sandbox is ready 23:21:13 found my error 23:21:19 rudybot: never mind 23:21:19 Daemmerung: eh? Try "rudybot: help". 23:21:42 does not return by the looks of it 23:21:43 iaefai: using "drscheme" doesn't make any difference, but the "language" that you've chosen within it certainly does. 23:22:04 I have installed the SICP language somebody mentioned on the forum 23:22:11 A forum rather. 23:23:13 I dunno what that does, really. 23:23:22 Probably r5rs + error 23:23:43 iaefai: anyway, the important point is that you understand why "if" is not an ordinary procedure, in regular scheme. 23:23:57 certainly 23:24:31 Is it possible to make use of this sort of evaluation in one's own procedure if one wanted? 23:25:21 are you asking, "can I write a procedure that doesn't evaluate all its arguments"? 23:25:43 yes, can I enforce some method of lazy evaluation 23:25:43 If so, the crude answer is "yes, that's what macros are"; the nit-picky answer is "no, if you write that thing, it's no longer a procedure" 23:25:57 (i.e., procedures and macros are different things) 23:26:00 And this being #scheme, we give the nit-picky answer 23:26:09 well, I like to give the crude answer first 23:26:19 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-108-0-53.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Hilarity ensues."] 23:27:01 I accept nit-picky answers as long as it is accessible :-) 23:28:43 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 23:28:54 SICP calls syntax, aka offby1's macros, "special forms." Qv 1.1.3. 23:29:12 yeah that's what I meant to say, I guess. 23:29:27 they're special precisely because they don't evaluate all their arguments. 23:29:32 Isn't that special. 23:29:42 So is R6RS being used now? 23:29:51 By whom? 23:31:42 The 'community' is the best reply to that I can give. 23:32:02 Oh, I see. It's being used by some. Not by me. 23:32:03 some of 'em 23:33:57 Chez users, Larceny users. Both under-represented in this channel. 23:34:54 Any reason why not yourself? 23:35:28 Doesn' 23:35:53 t give me anything that PLT 'Module' doesn't do better. Isn't supported by Gambit, the other impl that I use. 23:36:12 iaefai: my reason is similar: I'm lazy, I'm fond of PLT 'Module" 23:36:12 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-230-238.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:15 oh noes 23:36:27 too late to replace that double quote with a single-quote. 23:36:54 aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has joined #scheme 23:39:20 What does 'module' do precisely? 23:39:54 Qv http://docs.plt-scheme.org/ 23:40:20 iaefai: heh, that's probably too complex to answer briefly 23:40:40 iaefai: but I'll try anyway: roughly, it's just a variant of Scheme that has lots of nice stuff available. 23:41:43 It is not, however, R5RS compliant. That's why you need to run drscheme in a different mode in order to run examples from SICP. 23:43:37 actually, pure R5RS doesn't suffice for SICP, if I recall correctly. 23:43:45 I think SICP predates R5RS 23:44:40 -!- aidalgol [i=aidan@69.61.15.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:12 Has anyone tried to update it? 23:45:43 SICP predates R5RS and R4RS, I'm not sure about earlier ones. 23:45:47 -!- cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:19 I wonder - is it possible to turn off the display of fractions? I would love to see just real numbers. 23:46:37 -!- sepult` [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:57 The first edition used the old #!true etc. constant names. 23:47:13 #!true #!false #!nil (not sure about that last one) etc. 23:47:15 I should say just decimal answers. 23:48:29 rudybot: init scheme 23:48:29 Daemmerung: your scheme sandbox is ready 23:48:31 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:49:06 arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-31-12-215.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:50:09 iaefai: Are you using DrScheme as is? 23:50:25 iaefai: I am using the language SICP, but otherwise yes 23:50:49 iaefai: The one from http://www.neilvandyke.org/sicp-plt/ ? 23:51:13 yes 23:51:13 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:52:12 iaefai: In that case the whole module thing shouldn't be something to worry about. 23:52:47 eli, I am only using SICP language for the duration of this thing, no idea what will happen after. 23:55:42 iaefai: If "this thing" is "while doing SICP", then you're fine. You can worry about "real-world hacking" later... 23:57:58 iaefai: I don't know how to change the default printer that DrScheme uses. In the SICP or R5RS languages, you can pass your results to `exact->inexact' so that they will be printed as inexact values. In full DrScheme you could use `real->decimal-string' to similar effect. 23:58:19 ok 23:58:22 rudybot: eval (exact->inexact (/ 1 7)) 23:58:23 Daemmerung: ; Value: 0.14285714285714285 23:58:38 rudybot: eval (real->decimal-string (/ 1 7) 20) 23:58:38 Daemmerung: ; Value: "0.14285714285714285714" 23:59:16 rudybot: eval (number->string 1/7) 23:59:16 *offby1: ; Value: "1/7" 23:59:22 rudybot: eval (number->string #i1/7) 23:59:22 *offby1: ; Value: "0.14285714285714285" 00:00:05 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:09 I use DrScheme as an interactive calculator during baking. I try to remember to include an inexact value at all times so that I can read the results easily. 00:01:57 aren't you worried about getting flour in your keyboard? 00:02:20 Sealed keyboard. OLPC XO-1. Decent kitchen device once I replaced the shell. 00:04:22 It's got some variant of Fedora 9 on it. ratpoison as the wm, drscheme for kitchen calculation, opera to look up recipes on the web, emacs for I dunno I just need it there. 00:04:47 Hey people! 00:06:37 Better hit the road while there's still daylight. Later. 00:09:26 heh daylight - not here anymre. 00:09:27 elderK: wake up, sheeple! 00:09:29 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:09:41 :P 00:12:30 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:46 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 00:13:00 :) Guys, if I have mutation in my code, does that make hte code automatically crap? 00:13:25 because, for some things, I can't seem to escape the necessity to (vector-)?set! sometimes. 00:13:58 of course it doesn't. 00:14:21 those features are present in the language for a reason. 00:14:36 :) okay, neat. 00:14:49 I myself like to see how far I can go avoiding mutation without having to stand on my head (you might be surprised), but some kinds of code simply need it. 00:15:49 Well, in any case, I'll do what I can without mutation - and do what I feel I need to do, with mutation - and, I'll always post for feedback :) 00:15:57 so, hopefully, I can learn more ways to avoid it, if possible :) 00:16:09 I guess that kind of expertise comes only with practice, hey? 00:25:55 I'd think so 00:40:53 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S01060026bb736c5b.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 00:48:36 iaefai_ [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:55:15 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5B55B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:57:41 reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 00:57:50 RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has joined #scheme 00:58:12 rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 01:00:06 Guest48051 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:03:55 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:05:27 -!- iaefai [n=iaefai@CPE00195b93b783-CM0012254195d6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:27 -!- iaefai_ is now known as iaefai 01:10:52 -!- reprore_ [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:14:53 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:18:57 -!- Guest48051 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:19:03 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:06 I myself will see how far I can go avoiding mutation, then wake up 3 days later in a rain gutter reeking of nutmeg and wearing only an overcoat. 01:26:08 ... 01:27:21 synx: I'll go out with you and see all the new mutations on New Year's Day 01:35:11 -!- masm [n=masm@bl10-244-192.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:36:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:12 -!- clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:12 -!- jao [n=jao@232.Red-83-50-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:14 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:36:32 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 01:36:41 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 01:37:20 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.109.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:37:58 Better than reeking of Old Overholt and wearing only a nutmeg, hey. 01:40:37 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:42:10 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 01:42:10 -!- pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:27 -!- mmc1 [n=mima@cs27122078.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:42:28 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-29-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 01:43:55 cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #scheme 01:44:53 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:45:01 -!- Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has quit [] 01:47:37 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@li14-39.members.linode.com] has quit [K-lined] 01:49:26 masm [n=masm@bl5-106-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 01:50:18 -!- rdd`` [n=rdd@c83-250-152-128.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:22 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 01:52:28 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:35 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 01:55:43 SharkBrain [n=gerard@118-93-234-53.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 02:06:36 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:21 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:33 It seems so quiet. 02:08:40 Somebody, do something interesting! 02:10:05 rudybot: eval (call/cc call/cc call/cc) 02:10:05 synx: your scheme/base sandbox is ready 02:10:05 synx: error: call-with-current-continuation: expects type as 2nd argument, given: #; other arguments were: # 02:11:05 that wasn't that interesting 02:11:43 I choked, sorry. 02:12:14 lame 02:12:28 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:13:17 rudybot: eval ((lambda (x y) (list y (list 'quote y) (list 'quote x))) '(lambda (x y) (list y (list 'quote x) (list 'quote y))) '(lambda (x y) (list y (list 'quote y) (list 'quote x)))) 02:13:18 eli: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:13:18 eli: ; Value: ((lambda (x y) (list y (list (quote quote) y) (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (lambda (x y) (list y (list (quote quote) y) (list (quote quote) x)))) (quote (lambda (x y) (list y (list (quote quote) x) (list (quote quote) y))))) 02:13:24 Munch on that. 02:13:33 Is a quine? 02:13:37 looks like one 02:14:17 It's not a straighforward one. 02:15:53 mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 02:16:52 xwl [n=user@123.115.109.246] has joined #scheme 02:17:04 It's a quine that doesn't use quasiquoting? 02:18:17 quite, cool (now that I've got it formatted I can actually read it) 02:18:23 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 02:22:09 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:32 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:22:47 -!- re-l [n=re-l@c-98-197-118-188.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:10 rudybot: give eli 'interesting-prize 02:24:11 arcfide: your scheme sandbox is ready 02:24:11 eli: arcfide has given you a value, say "rudybot: eval (GRAB)" to get it (case sensitive) 02:26:12 rudybot: eval (eat (GRAB)) 02:26:13 eli: ; Value: (interesting-prize swallowed) 02:28:22 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-49-46.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 02:29:32 eli: I'm toying with doing a sort of survey presentation on Web Programming and the "State of the Art" in Scheme. Does PLT Scheme have a sort of summary overview of its web programming features? I'm looking for something that would help me to illustrate the interesting points of PLT Scheme's Web stuff without making it the main focus of the presentation. 02:30:24 Guest39611 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:23 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:32:29 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:32:37 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 02:33:47 -!- cmerck [n=cmerck@nj-71-1-58-173.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:56 -!- NNshag [n=shag@lns-bzn-37-82-253-45-49.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:17 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:38:54 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 02:39:06 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:46:10 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 02:46:22 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/lisp-programmers.jpg 02:46:23 :) 02:46:47 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-98-111.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:12 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:48:35 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 02:50:01 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:50:13 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:50:59 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 02:57:50 -!- Guest39611 [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 02:58:10 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:00:49 TR2N: I posted this one to my blog: . 03:03:24 Those are both choice. 03:04:11 ... 03:04:13 What's with... 03:04:22 :P Palin is everywhere in the Lisp one? 03:04:27 Ruby and Java? 03:04:27 :P 03:04:33 the HAskell cat... I love it 03:04:36 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:59 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 03:08:05 elderK: I guess that depends on how you interpret those Palin pictures. :-) 03:08:17 :P 03:08:30 Potentially modified. 03:08:30 lol 03:08:50 Arc, any chance you know where I could talk to people / ramble about scheme-implementation? 03:09:25 Guess I could just get back to reading LiSP 03:09:31 but, it'd like to talk to people about this stuff. 03:09:32 :) 03:10:39 elderK: What do you mean by rambling and Scheme implementation? 03:10:48 The implementation of a Scheme. 03:10:48 :) 03:10:53 elderK: Are you saying that you want to discuss how Scheme implementations are written? 03:11:01 Quite! 03:11:05 Well, you can always ramble here. 03:11:09 Or on comp.lang.scheme. 03:11:22 Just, pondering compilation and the like, you know? 03:11:22 Or you can take Kent Dybvig's compilers course. :-P 03:11:26 I wish! 03:12:09 I mean, most of the stuff is written and read, rather than discussed in public forums like this, I think, but feel free to ramble. 03:12:11 Might take at some C implementation from 1994. 03:12:21 *a look 03:12:31 There are some papers on the incremental compilation techniques that you can read. 03:12:36 Well, aye. It's just, you know, sometimes it's fun to talk about it with people - perspectives, ideas. 03:12:45 And Aziz has some stuff you could examine. 03:12:55 Have a go. 03:13:08 arcfide: If you want to spend an equal amount of time on each feature/implementation combination, then the plt web-server would probably take 90% of the time. 03:13:36 So far, I've not really established a 'real' sourcebase as such - just a bunch of test programs, testing various ideas I have for how to approach the lexing, parsing, etc, of Scheme forms. 03:14:41 Read the source to as many implementations as you can. Read Quiennec's /Lisp in Small Pieces/. 03:14:49 Just wondering, like, after I have created a validated token stream, I should be able to roll on through it, in some form, and determine the environments. 03:14:52 Aye, I have been, Daemmerung. 03:14:53 :) 03:15:07 :) Spending a lot of time hacking around, too, playing with ideas. 03:15:24 It's weird... for some reason, I'm seeing code differently, lately. 03:15:27 the more I read into it all. 03:15:48 No matter what language you look at, it's all... pretty simple, really. The optimizations and stuff, the exception. 03:16:03 But simple, in that, it really just is messing with numbers. 03:16:05 You know? 03:16:12 We have some flow control... 03:16:30 can read/write memory at various places, but everything above that (and arithmetic, logical stuff, etc) ,is just... sugar. 03:16:41 Don't know why, but, Scheme highlights the simplicity of hte machine, in a way. 03:16:43 *elderK* shrugs 03:16:57 larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #scheme 03:17:10 I need to find information on register allocation and the like. 03:17:43 eli: I'm not really interested in discussing each feature/implementation combination. I'm more interested in providing perspectives and executive summaries. Something that identifies PLT's tools and concepts succinctly would go a long way towards helping that. 03:18:19 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:20 elderK: If you want a slightly different perspective, it may interest you to know that the compilers course taught here has zero subject matter pertaining to lexing and parsing. 03:18:32 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-135-88.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:18:36 really? 03:18:39 Really. 03:18:51 Would you midn giving me an overview of the course? or a link to such an overview? 03:18:55 God, I'd love to take a compiler course. 03:19:00 you just use a standard reader? 03:20:07 arcfide: are you at IU? 03:20:20 elderK: The course layout basically consists of the students writing a compiler every week. Each compiler is slightly different from the one written previously, and the compiler is basically a series of program transformations, called passes. 03:20:24 Daemmerung: Yes. 03:20:54 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 03:20:58 elderK: The compiler(s) at the end compile a small but "representative" subset of Scheme to X86_64 assembly. 03:21:22 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:22 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 03:21:28 The final result is a compiler with approximately 40 - 50 compiler "passes." 03:21:52 Most examples of parsers and the like I find, lexers, etc, are all recursive, which... I find sad. 03:22:14 (Commenting now on some code I'm reading, just as we speak) 03:22:18 arcfide: Yes, obviously you don't want to talk about each combination; but what I'm saying is that the number of features in the PLT web server would dwarf the number of features in all of the others combined. 03:23:08 elderK: The view on lexing and parsing here is that this is a mostly "solved" problem when it comes to writing everyday compilers. That is, there exist good tools for parsing, and there is too much to discuss related to compilation without lexing and parsing, which is more interesting. Hence, they assume that you will just learn to use a lexing and parsing tool if you really want, or learn about the stuff somewhere else, such a 03:23:09 class. 03:23:33 eli: Well, I'm not really trying to count features. 03:25:20 Well, aye, arcfide. 03:25:30 It's just, I like to learn everything, you know? 03:25:38 In the future, maybe I'll use parser generators and the like. 03:25:45 But for now, I still enjoy working it out and experimenting :) 03:26:32 arcfide: There is a series of articles about the PLT web server and the manual describes it pretty thorougly. 03:26:48 masm: Is there any short summary? 03:27:05 You can write one, after reading the material. :) 03:27:13 Har . . . Har. 03:27:36 It's hard enough for me to try to document my own code. Much less code from others. 03:27:45 Also, the articles have an introduction. Maybe that will help. 03:28:26 elderK: Well, there is nothing wrong with that. People still work on parsing and lexing. I'm just letting you know that there's a LOT more to compilers than that, and in fact, some people consider lexing and parsing to be the least interesting features of a compiler. Whether that holds true for you is another matter. 03:28:52 me? I find it all fascinating :) 03:29:01 Weird. I'm not seeing anything from eli at my end. It's as if arcfide is addressing empty air. 03:29:20 Daemmerung: Did you ignore him? 03:29:36 No. 03:29:39 arcfide: I find writing some programs in Assembly quite enlightening, too. At least, to give me a better view at times. 03:29:43 Just checking. :-) 03:30:09 like, taking some scheme code I've written - and... naively convert it to assembly, then mess with it, refining it, making it faster and faster as my abilities allow. 03:30:26 elderK: That's what a compiler does. 03:30:47 Aye :D 03:31:05 Although, at this time, I'm still trying to understand how I can translate tokens, into information that I can use to decide on how to generate code. 03:31:12 But rather than converting the code directly to assembly, you may want to look at the process as a series of transformations eventually resulting in assembly code. 03:31:16 say, what registers to use, also thinking about how I will handle hte environment on the stack, etc. 03:31:22 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has quit ["Smoove out."] 03:31:35 :D could you talk a little more on that view, arc? 03:31:42 Daemmerung [n=goetter@64.146.161.228] has joined #scheme 03:31:56 (I need to read more on SSA - since, CPS is equivalent to that, right?) 03:32:15 (that might be something I'll write for a little fun -try to write a CPSifier!) 03:32:31 elderK: Say you have a program, and treat the input to your compiler as a scheme expression, such as '(begin 5). 03:34:18 elderK: You could then have a pass that transforms this to (begin (set! rax 5)), which is translated into the appropriate assembly, which is essentially movq rax, 5. 03:34:36 You would wrap boilerplate around it to make it compile, of course, but that's just an example. 03:34:54 aye, but in such a case, the interesting part to me is, why choose rax? :) 03:35:12 Because your boilerplate expect the return value in RAX. 03:35:23 boilerplate being the runtime? 03:35:26 As for register allocation, you can read all sorts of papers on register allocation. 03:35:31 :) awesome. 03:35:57 arcfide: Yes, I (still) know you're not trying to count features. Still, if you want to summarize "the interesting points", then it will have much more of them, so it's summary is likely to be much longer -- in a way that is proportional to the number of features.. 03:36:00 I think I will continue translating "scheme programs" to Assembly by hand, for awhile. It's useful to understanding, I feel. 03:36:23 Like, handling the environment abstraction entirely by hand, dealing with how memory is managed, etc. 03:36:42 (I dont do any GC or anything like that, obviously, but it's fun to experiment with control and the like) 03:36:44 arcfide: But it's probably best if you just browse through the manual and see the toplevel list of points. 03:36:45 eli: When that happens, I am likely to group features and gloss over a whole family of them. 03:37:21 eli: Alright. 03:38:09 arcfide: one thing that I still find a little confusing in CPS, is If. 03:38:14 in a pure CPS scheme, say, 03:38:57 there are different ways to approach ifs and the like, I guess, even in CPS. 03:39:19 do you pass the t/f value to an if construct, that simply takes two continuations? and routes on one of them, depending if the t/f value is t or f? 03:39:35 arcfide: "glossing over features" becomes harder when those features are high-level. 03:39:42 (< v1 v2 (lambda (t-f) (if t-f (lambda ...) (lambda ...) ) ) ) 03:39:44 type thing? 03:40:06 arcfide: For example, there are these features that I know about that I don't see any way to gloss over subsets: 03:41:54 elderK: Have you examined the relevant literature on CPS? 03:42:30 ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has joined #scheme 03:43:55 arcfide: continuation-based interactions, various resource management schemes, various ways to dispatch on incoming urls, stateful and stateless servlets, serializable continuations (and closures) with various serialization strategies, formlets (specifying a chunk of html and variables that turn into input fields to be bound by later interactions), and templating (when you put mixed html and code in a file). 03:44:03 -!- bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:44:32 Web cells. 03:45:07 masm: Yeah, there's that too, but I suspect that such things are stuff that arcfide would "gloss over". 03:45:49 elderK: If I were thinking of a CPS style, I would think of something more like (define (< k a b) (if (positive? values (- values b a)) (k #ft) (k #f))), but I'm not really practiced in CPS. 03:46:24 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 03:46:25 Anyways, eli, thanks. I wouldn't go into detail on any of those, I'd probably just mention a few of them or just give thier names. My audience would be able to get a guess on what they do. 03:46:32 And it's time for me to go to bed. 03:46:33 :-) 03:46:36 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:46:37 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 03:46:52 -!- arcfide [i=arcfide@adsl-99-31-12-215.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has left #scheme 03:47:50 rudybot: later tell arcfide: In that case it is better if you don't mention it at all. 03:47:50 minion: memo for arcfide:: eli told me to tell you: In that case it is better if you don't mention it at all. 03:48:09 offby1: Failure. 03:48:48 -!- masm [n=masm@bl5-106-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:52:31 tjafk [n=timj@e176213219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:05:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 04:09:29 -!- tjaway [n=timj@e176210084.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:57 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:10:52 -!- blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 04:14:24 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 04:14:30 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:14:37 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 04:41:11 -!- elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [] 04:59:34 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 05:01:26 -!- larry65 [n=larry@d122-105-194-67.meb12.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #scheme 05:22:04 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:22:31 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:23:42 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:27:09 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:31 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:31:00 -!- mejja [n=user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:26 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:34:32 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:39 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 05:35:11 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 05:36:48 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:03 cky [n=cky@h-98-105-49-83.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 05:41:30 *copumpkin* ran his fitbit through the wash :( 05:43:30 fitbit? 05:43:48 fitbit.com 05:44:09 oops 05:44:12 are they not waterproof? 05:44:14 *copumpkin* looks sad 05:46:59 oh dear 05:47:08 *elly* pats copumpkin's head 05:47:11 there, there 05:47:13 *copumpkin* pouts :( 05:48:21 -!- yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:50:58 -!- cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-49-46.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:51:09 Does this thing actually work? 05:51:16 s/Does/Did/ 05:51:18 Not any more it doesn't. 05:52:08 it used to, quite well 05:52:23 How can it distinguish sleep from hacking? 05:52:37 it's in a coma... the screen is on and showing "fitbit 1.09" 05:52:41 but it won't respond to anything 05:53:23 eli: I press a button when I'm about to go to sleep. Then it knows to try to figure out if I'm asleep or not, and will tell me how long it takes me to go to sleep and when I wake up in the night 05:53:48 Ha... 05:53:58 Remove any batteries, rinse it in rubbing alcohol to remove any residual detergent, then let it dry for a while. Could emerge from its coma. 05:54:01 *eli* lafs at such cheap tricks to measure sleep time. 05:54:04 yosafbridge [n=yosafbri@adsl-71-142-227-255.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:54:04 no removable batteries 05:54:08 it's sitting in rice right now 05:54:22 eli: it's pretty decent :) if it did die, I'll probably get another one 05:54:35 but it makes me sad 05:55:23 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:55:29 copumpkin: I'd get one just for tracking sleep patterns, but they're random enough that I almost never have a point where I'd push some "I'm going to sleep" button. 05:56:01 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 05:56:07 oh :) I never just fall asleep, so it's not a problem for me to hold down the button after I turn out the light 05:56:12 the screen on it is really cool 05:57:18 -!- bytecolor [n=user@32.152.135.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:39 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:28 SharkBra1n [n=gerard@118-92-216-174.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 06:06:08 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 06:09:00 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:15 -!- SharkBrain [n=gerard@118-93-234-53.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:26 -!- lusory [n=bart@bb119-74-197-254.singnet.com.sg] has quit ["leaving"] 06:16:44 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:17:08 If the fitbit tracked heart rate and blood oxygen, I would cheerfully undergo elective surgery for hardware implants. What fun. 06:17:31 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:58 I wouldn't enjoy having allergic reactions to myself 06:18:25 I would already undergo elective surgery for hardware implants 06:18:58 Come on! You could calculate the elevation of your metabolic rate during debugging! 06:19:46 And then publish the data for the most. boring. blog. evar. 06:20:35 or you could use it to add a color to your markup based on your current metabolic rate 06:20:49 to make some kind of blog/mood ring 06:21:29 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-139-181.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:50:25 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:50:44 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 06:53:08 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:53:38 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 07:00:36 copumpkin: i washed my cell phone for 45 minutes and it revived itself after drying for a week 07:00:55 yeah, I've heard that, but OLED screens are apparently quite sensitive to water 07:01:05 I guess I could live without the screen, but it was so pretty :) 07:04:48 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:05:32 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:07:30 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:21 sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 07:19:27 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 07:19:32 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:19:39 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 07:37:58 blar1 [n=blard@80.142.241.148] has joined #scheme 07:38:03 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:38:10 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 07:38:57 -!- saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-98-212-125-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:14 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-40.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:34 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 07:53:08 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:07 -!- dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-29-94.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:58:54 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:06:03 bytecolor [n=user@32.154.215.129] has joined #scheme 08:06:31 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 08:15:28 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:15:34 -!- blard [n=blard@80.142.241.148] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:41 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 08:32:00 -!- nego [n=nego@c-76-16-30-244.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:34:02 pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #scheme 08:42:39 -!- kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:19 -!- SharkBra1n [n=gerard@118-92-216-174.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:47:24 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:50 -!- RaceCondition [n=erik@82.131.74.61.cable.starman.ee] has left #scheme 08:48:35 blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:53:55 cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-57-84.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 09:05:14 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-49-83.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:17 cky__ [n=cky@h-166-166-106-174.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 09:22:12 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-104.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 09:24:10 cky [n=cky@h-98-105-21-120.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 09:26:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #scheme 09:28:23 -!- cky_ [n=cky@h-98-105-57-84.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:46:24 -!- cky__ [n=cky@h-166-166-106-174.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:14 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:31 devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has joined #scheme 10:06:28 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #scheme 10:10:02 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:32 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #scheme 10:17:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:59 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 10:22:10 incubot: mozart's first piano sonata achieves an uncanny erhabenheit; it's less spectacular, though, now that i know he was eighteen. why, that's SICP age. 10:22:15 sonata is a classical tune, not a drama 10:23:29 blar1 [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 10:23:41 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:42 -!- blar1 is now known as blard 10:28:12 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:47 brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 10:37:34 -!- pbusser [n=pbusser@ip138-238-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:40:38 -!- sepult [n=levgue@xdsl-87-78-123-51.netcologne.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:42:40 -!- devslashnull [n=nope@dyn-164.greentreefrog.net.au] has quit [] 10:43:23 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-109-145.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 10:45:18 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:47:41 -!- blard [n=blard@p508EF194.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #scheme 10:47:59 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 10:59:02 -!- leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:06:05 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-21-120.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:10:04 cky [n=cky@h-166-166-116-63.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 11:10:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 11:21:01 leppie [n=lolcow@dsl-243-43-34.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 11:26:56 elderK [n=zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 11:28:14 Hey guys, what's the general feeling about "recursion", here? 11:28:25 pavelludiq [n=quassel@83.222.166.125] has joined #scheme 11:28:55 Ie: If you can solve a problem via both recursion (ie: recursive process, not tail-call) and iteration, is it not better form to use the iterative method to solve the problem? 11:29:14 (I consider "proper" tail calling, etc, to be iterative) 11:32:45 elderK: what do you mean by better? 11:33:01 when saecular cats prefer iteration, it's usually for performance reasons 11:33:14 Well, aye. 11:33:15 when pious cats prefer recursion, it's usually because of beauty 11:33:26 Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. 11:33:36 for me, beauty is the mix of "good form" in code and performance. 11:33:53 no, fuck that; beauty is mathematical rigor and simplicity 11:33:57 ;) 11:34:04 :P 11:34:04 :) 11:34:24 I'm simply trying to gauge what's considered good and bad :) 11:34:34 personally, I will always use iterative solutions - unless I have no other choice. 11:34:45 If I cannot implement something iteratively - then I see it as an intellectual issue, not technical. 11:35:04 That view, however, may be incorrect or simply held because of a lack of experience. :) 11:35:18 Recursive code, however, is nearly always simpler. 11:35:24 -!- cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-109-145.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:04 :) So I ask - if recursion is the easier alternative - but will inflict a performance or memory cost - against the iterative version - then does that not make the iterative version a better solution? 11:36:17 regardless of the fact that implementing the iterative solution, may or may not be more complex? 11:36:24 (Am I asking the question reasonably?) 11:36:58 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-116-63.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:38:22 elderK: you must differentiate between recursive processes and recursive formulation 11:38:38 I thought I did. 11:38:40 just because something *looks* like recursion, the process that computes it doesn't have to be recursive (see tail call optimization) 11:38:46 It is the recurisve process that I am against. 11:38:51 ^^ ie: Tail call. 11:38:53 Tail calls are fine. 11:38:58 Tail recursion, is iterative, in my view. 11:39:07 Recursive "appearence". 11:39:08 But it's iterative. 11:39:31 well, some problems really are easier to describe (and more efficient time-wise) recursively 11:39:38 (provided the implementation of whatever program, supports TCO) 11:39:39 e.g. some tree algorithms 11:39:51 More efficient time-wise, as in, programmer time - or machine time? 11:40:02 cky [n=cky@h-98-105-15-169.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:09 there's no gain in implementing a recursive tree traversal imperatively by emulating a stack :) 11:40:13 elderK: both :) 11:40:25 ecraven: I agree and disagree with you there. 11:40:25 :) 11:40:34 i'd suggest evaluation of a mathematical expression tree as an example 11:40:36 but which side I take, depends on situation and context. 11:41:02 Say... tree traversal. 11:41:22 There is only one reason I would use an iterative routine for that, as opposed to recursive. 11:42:19 1) the depth of hte tree is known to be /large/. 2) the depth of the tree MAY be huge. 3) The stack is small. 4) some pedantic reasons that may just be me :) 11:42:33 First define iteration and recursion. 11:42:45 :/ I felt I have? 11:43:03 Iterative process vs. Recursive process (using the SICP terminology) 11:43:04 Not at all. 11:43:41 SICP does not define them as far as I know. They are magic phrases in the book that happen to mean the right thing 11:43:46 elderK: even if the tree is large or huge, you will need approximately the same memory for an iterative implementation of the recursive process. 11:44:12 Yes, you will, ecraven, but there is a small benefit in using an iterative routine, at least when the depth of the tree is likely to be large - but may not be. 11:44:23 and lik eI said, it may be a weird bent on my side. 11:45:17 Jafet: Wrt my question, I use recursion to mean a function, that calls itself - with the call resulting in the creation of a new stackframe / environment. 11:45:22 Hopefully that clarifies it a bit :) 11:45:46 What is a stack frame? What does it mean to create an environment? 11:46:43 Stackframe being the control information stored on the stack to return from the call, parameters, local variables. 11:47:30 You're confusing one possible method to implement a process, with the nature of the process itself. 11:47:41 That is the question! 11:47:47 Tail recursion can create a new stack frame every time -- garbage collect the old ones. 11:47:48 Which method of implementation is considered superior. 11:48:07 The one that is most efficient for the machine to be used. 11:48:15 Precisely how I feel. 11:48:46 What is to be implemented? 11:49:12 If there is a tie, between memory use of an implementation - then I prefer the implementation that offers better behavior on failure, if they tie then - then the one that requires the least crap pushed per call... 11:49:23 I'm asking abstract here, not about a specific implementation of anything. 11:49:54 but, about iterative implementation vs. recursive implementation (with recursion here, meaning NON TCO tc or "normal" non-tail call) 11:50:28 For me, it depends on the language, too. Ie: What does the runtime of said language do, when the stack overflows? 11:50:47 Does it just kill the program? Or does it let you catch some signal, to recover? 11:51:35 Those are not expressible in Scheme. 11:51:45 So, I'm not sure what your point or question is. 11:52:04 ~_~ I'm not talking about Scheme only, I'm talking about method of implementation, generally. 11:52:07 In any language. 11:52:10 Implementation of what? 11:52:17 ... anything. 11:52:34 string searching, tree insertion/deletion/traversal... parsing, etc... 11:52:39 I can babble too! 11:52:42 ... 11:52:42 How can you expect tail recursion and non-tail recursion to be able to describe the same processes? 11:52:50 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-134-66-143.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:52:55 I am not saying they are the same! 11:52:58 I said WAY above 11:53:04 that I consider tail-recursion to be iterative. 11:53:08 If TCO is used. 11:53:32 It's not an optimization, it's an innate property of the language 11:53:39 Of Scheme. 11:53:46 but, more generally, it is not. 11:53:56 it is of Scheme, but it is not of C or C++... or CL. 11:54:05 Why are those relevant? 11:54:16 ... 11:54:17 Nevermind. I give up guessing what you're talking about. 11:56:15 kenjin2201 [n=kenjin@220.120.43.80] has joined #scheme 12:05:35 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:21 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:06:21 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:35 Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 12:07:11 masm [n=masm@bl5-106-198.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:22:21 -!- cky [n=cky@h-98-105-15-169.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:36 snearch [n=olaf@g225049242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 12:56:54 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 13:16:54 elderK: basically, iteration-bias is evidence of a mind blunted by von-neumann-ism 13:17:20 it is an inchoate state of humanity one should strive to liberate themselves from 13:18:21 elderK: In other words, you have been brainwashed by C and its ilk to believe that function call = stack increase 13:18:37 sjamaan: good call 13:20:41 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:20:51 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:20:53 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 13:24:40 wel, sjamaan, I haven't. I explained above, that, I see tail-calls as fine. 13:24:47 I see tail-recursion, as fine. 13:24:54 provided the tail recursion is done correctly. 13:24:54 :) 13:25:23 This is Scheme. Of course it's done correctly 13:25:41 (it wouldn't be scheme if it weren't done correctly) 13:25:44 Yes - but it also relies on the code that the programmer rights, to adegree, right? 13:26:06 (and please, I didn't ask the questions to go anti-scheme, I was simply asking in a context wider - general programming, not C centric or Scheme centric :)) 13:26:11 *writes 13:26:11 :) 13:26:30 Well, in C a function call more-or-less implies a stack increase. 13:26:32 How much memory your program uses depends on you, yeah 13:26:33 (duh) 13:26:42 -!- Belaf [n=campedel@net-93-144-53-148.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has left #scheme 13:26:54 and whether a recursive routine, is truly tail-cally, depends on you too. 13:26:58 and aye, masm. 13:27:05 I mean, surely, someone knows what I was asking? 13:27:32 I wasnt saying Recursion was bad or evil - I was generally asking opinions - about recursion that is not TCO'd 13:28:42 Jafet1 [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has joined #scheme 13:28:57 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:29:01 -!- Jafet1 is now known as Jafet 13:32:04 -!- ski_ [n=md9slj@remote1.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:32:46 ie: if tco is not available, in some language, is recursion still preferred over iteration? 13:32:50 basically, that is the question. 13:32:57 that transcends Scheme. 13:34:20 Depends on the problem. 13:34:54 Okay, thanks. See, that's all I was asking :) 13:35:20 Now, I ask - why does it depend on the problem? What problems? 13:35:34 The point is that that's a bit of a wrong question :) In Scheme, iteration has the same syntax as recursion, so you don't have to make a choice 13:35:34 Does not every recursive algorithm, have an iterative counterpart - that is simply more explicit? 13:35:47 Aye - but I was asking outside of scheme 13:36:07 Well, there you have to make a choice because iteration has a different syntax 13:36:10 I stated hwen I asked, that this question was about all languages, generally 13:36:44 yes, but my point is that "all languages" excludes Scheme because there's no difference 13:36:48 elderK: No. 13:37:17 blackened` [n=blackene@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 13:37:20 You can always use the "iterative notation" and keep a stack yourself 13:37:24 masm, no? 13:38:55 Some algorithms are recursive and cannot be expressed with iteraction, unless you explicitly keep a stack on the side. 13:39:01 What sjamaan said. 13:39:51 Yes, which means, they can be implemented iteratively. My opinion is that, in some circumstances - keeping that explicit stack, allows for more control - it also can allow for better error-detection in non-scheme, non-tco langauges 13:39:52 elderK: Remember that in assembly, there is no true recursion. It's just goto and push/pop of a stack area 13:40:18 elderK: why do your text lines include ^Z characters? (or is this just my client?) 13:40:28 I see them too (irssi here) 13:40:34 o_O No idea, ecraven. 13:40:38 IT may be my client. 13:40:43 ...^Zmy.. 13:40:48 elderK: Why? 13:40:57 I'm putting a forward-slash before them, to italicize. 13:41:02 ie: bold italic 13:41:05 Don't do that 13:41:08 It's broken 13:41:20 what client is this? 13:41:24 Linkinus, OSX. 13:41:28 Or fix your client not to be "smart" about slashes :) 13:42:32 :) Np. 13:42:34 elderK: Why does this allow for better error-detection? Care to give an example where TCO fails in that respect? 13:42:39 elderK: Why is it that keeping the stack explicitly gives you more control? 13:42:52 More control over what? 13:42:54 Okay, it gives me more control / more reliability in NON-TCO languages. 13:42:58 So, this is NOT SCHEME. 13:43:07 In Scheme, it's all good, either way. 13:43:15 But in say, C, not so. 13:43:27 elderK: I still don't see why it would give you more control or reliability, even in C 13:43:32 More control? 13:44:04 There are optimizations you can make, if you do the stack stuff, yourself, mostly to do with shaving off call/rets etc. 13:44:07 as for reliability, 13:44:12 say you have to traverse down some huge tree. 13:44:17 or, destroy some huge tree. 13:44:32 You are relying on the fact the stack has enough space, for you to do that. 13:44:42 If it doesnt- depending on host, you will crash. 13:45:12 (italic 'depending on host') 13:45:44 elderK: You are not making any sense. Shaving call/rets?! If you don't need call/rets, don't do the calls, right? 13:46:14 ... In a non-tail-recursive language, a recursive call, is always, a call. 13:46:15 unless you write in assembly. 13:46:19 and you do the TCO yourself. 13:46:26 OR you use trampolines or whatever, to implement TCO in C. 13:47:08 Why are you dragging TCO in again? I thought we were talking about recursive processes? 13:48:00 ... what masm said 13:48:02 "dont do the calls" 13:48:04 recursive processes, in languages that are NOT scheme, like I said, always result in a call/ret cycle. 13:48:06 you yourself, masm, said that. 13:48:08 I bring in TCO, because, "dont make the calls"... in c, with recursion? okay... 13:48:19 Don't do the calls = use the iterative syntax instead 13:48:28 exactly! 13:48:39 Use iteration, keep the stack explicitly. 13:48:45 *sjamaan* sighs 13:49:05 In the places where you need to keep state (where it's fully recursive), you can use function call syntax 13:49:13 In the places where you don't, you can use iterative syntax 13:49:20 You don't have to choose either for everything 13:49:24 which is basically, what ive been saying all along! 13:49:43 No, you were talking about keeping explicit state of the stack and using iterative syntax for everything 13:49:47 I was just asking, GENERALLY, in terms of code, what is considered good technique, is recursion superior to iteration, or is it all up to .. 13:49:48 oh... 13:49:51 no I wasnt, Sjamaan. 13:50:03 Way, way, way, way, back. 13:50:05 In that case, you're not being very clear in what you are trying to get across 13:50:06 when I originally asked. 13:50:11 ! I said it 13:50:14 the first thing I had! 13:50:26 *sjamaan* returns to his code 13:50:28 This is pointless 13:50:30 Is it considered better form, to use recursion or iteration, generally, in all languages. 13:50:34 that was the question. 13:50:50 Anyway, you've answered the question. 13:50:51 So, thank you. 13:57:49 elderK: that question can't be answered generally, imho 13:58:12 :( perhaps, but that was all I was asking. 13:58:24 for example, i prefer MAP to a named let loop (where MAP seems iterative to me, and the named let loop explicitly recursive) 13:58:31 :( you've been here for most of this saga. 13:59:01 i don't think there's anything wrong with iterative processes 13:59:25 aye. 13:59:53 In Scheme, it's a nobrainer - it comes down to syntax, style and whatever suits - because ultimately, it all winds up the same. 14:00:00 Scheme is beautiful, and that is only one tiny reason for it's beauty. 14:00:49 bgs100 [n=ian@unaffiliated/bgs100] has joined #scheme 14:01:31 elderK: i'd even say if you have a choice, an iterative *process* is always better than a recursive one, as it needs less memory 14:01:41 aye, that's what I figured. 14:01:52 but it depends on the language, too. 14:02:02 at least, from what I understand about scheme, tail call optimization and the like. 14:02:08 but whether you prefer an iterative or recursive *procedure* to express that process, is a matter of style and personal preference 14:02:21 There we go, you nailed it, ecraven. 14:02:27 You, today, are a legend. 14:02:27 :) 14:02:40 no, whether a process is iterative or recursive is not (mainly) a question of language, i'd say 14:02:54 i have to read up on this stuff again, i forgot much :( 14:03:27 well, no. but in C, for example - an iterative process, represented as a recursive function, will not result in an iterative process. 14:03:45 because C doesn't do the whole TCO thing - each call would wind up pushing new control state, ec. 14:04:13 elderK: that depends on your C compiler 14:04:17 where as in Scheme, the memory use of an iterative process, is bounded, regardless of how it's represented in code. 14:04:18 Really? 14:04:27 gcc does some TCO sometimes :) it just isn't guaranteed 14:04:30 I haven't yet found a C compiler that can do TCO like Scheme. 14:04:34 Aye. 14:05:15 see for example: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/311332/measuring-performance-after-tail-call-optimizationtco 14:05:17 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yhwc6cu 14:05:37 elderK: of course not, that's not possible in C due to the specification 14:05:56 aye. 14:06:14 "due to the specification"? 14:06:28 hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5A54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 14:19:53 Jafet: seems i'm wrong.. i always thought function pointers and so on complicated TCO 14:20:12 It's the ABI that complicates it 14:20:20 Aye. 14:20:42 (at least, the SYSV ABI specifies how library calls work, and that involves the stack) 14:21:11 Aye, calling conventions and whatnot. 14:21:47 btw, guys, who were involved in the dicussion (jafet, sjamaan, masm, ecraven), hope there are no hard feelings :) 14:22:34 naw, that's ok 14:23:08 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 14:23:19 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #scheme 14:23:22 :) :D Cool. 14:23:53 hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has joined #scheme 14:24:16 Narrenschiff [n=ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 14:24:19 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@user-387hdp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:25:16 -!- Jafet [n=Jafet@unaffiliated/jafet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:32 -!- MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:58 MichaelRaskin [n=MichaelR@195.91.224.225] has joined #scheme 14:51:36 reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:56:46 -!- nullpo [n=nullpo@221x252x46x83.ap221.ftth.ucom.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:02:56 LL [n=ll@78-21-35-139.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 15:22:00 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-104.vinet.ba] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:22:12 MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-104.vinet.ba] has joined #scheme 15:41:11 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p4FC5A54E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:41:54 alvatar [n=alvatar@202.126.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 15:55:55 -!- Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:27 EvilTofu [n=EvilPota@cm130.delta58.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 16:00:58 Heyo! 16:07:11 Anyone home? 16:08:21 Ain't no one here but us chickens. 16:24:38 wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:32:53 Are those Scheme chickens? 16:35:50 -!- xwl [n=user@123.115.109.246] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:36:15 -!- hiacre [n=hiacre@88-97-27-187.dsl.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:59:07 -!- EvilTofu [n=EvilPota@cm130.delta58.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 17:19:55 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-82-46.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:38:56 kniu [n=kniu@HOHOHO.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:42:20 -!- copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:00:40 copumpkin [n=copumpki@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:56 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl571.nas982.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 18:02:19 Sergio` [n=Sergio`@a89-152-187-193.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #scheme 18:06:29 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 18:09:17 Dawgmatix_ [n=dman@c-76-124-8-39.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:22:15 anyone know if theres a scheme interface to thrift / protocol buffers? 18:31:43 cky [n=cky@h-166-166-100-25.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 18:32:52 I've seen an interface for Gambit. 18:33:03 Mikaeel_Mohamed [n=Mohamdu@129-97-208-115.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 18:38:05 hi! 18:38:07 http://github.com/weaver/gambit-protocol-buffers <-- never used it myself 18:38:15 what's the best way to do multithreading in scheme? 18:38:36 (which implementations support it?) 18:39:26 I don't know about "best" but all(?) schemes that support threads implement srfi-18 18:40:04 sjamaan: I see :) 18:43:42 sjamaan: sorry for such a basic question, but how can I know if my implementation has a determinate srfi, and how to load it? 18:43:55 Check the manual :) 18:43:58 I couldn't find this info in any of the references I'm learning from 18:44:05 the implementation manual you mean? 18:44:07 yes 18:44:21 I see, that's not common to all implementations, then 18:44:25 Indeed 18:44:34 thanks 18:44:53 The only features common to all implementations are what you read in R5RS. 18:45:51 ok :) 18:45:57 I'm actually using gambit 18:46:26 SRFI 18 was written by the Gambit author. Draw your own conclusions. 18:46:52 :) Marc Feley 18:47:09 http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~gambit/doc/gambit-c.html#Threads 18:47:27 I can't find any list of implemented srfi in gambit though 18:47:30 thanks, Daemmerung 18:49:06 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-180-142.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has left #scheme 18:53:03 saint_cypher [n=saint_cy@c-98-212-125-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:53:26 cky_ [n=cky@h-166-166-113-48.ip.alltel.net] has joined #scheme 18:54:01 Suffice to say, Gambit's documentation could use improvement. 18:55:11 is '() generally self-evaluating ? 18:56:13 ahm, i'm answering myself, so quickly. it is in mit-scheme, but not plt 18:56:13 Is that a question about quote, or the literal empty list? 18:56:25 the empty list 18:56:42 No, it is not generally self-evaluating. 18:57:00 -!- reprore [n=reprore@ntkngw356150.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:08 so i noticed. thanks 19:01:22 -!- wingo [n=wingo@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:03:24 jao [n=jao@232.Red-83-50-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:04:02 awarrington_ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 19:04:05 -!- cky [n=cky@h-166-166-100-25.ip.alltel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:52 awarrington__ [n=quassel@officebv.conductor.com] has joined #scheme 19:06:34 -!- roderic [n=user@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:44 roderic [n=user@zerowing.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 19:09:15 pjb [n=t@101.Red-88-30-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 19:10:14 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:10:25 stepnem [n=stepnem@88.103.132.186] has joined #scheme 00:07:27 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 00:07:27 00:07:27 -!- names: ccl-logbot bone Shanker kloeri_ happycube JoelMcCracken Daemmerung Mikaeel_Mohamed leppie kilimanjaro bytecolor rmrfchik nego mathk clog Adamant Obfuscate REPLeffect jmcphers ASau sepult parolang copumpkin bgs100 Arelius SharkBra1n mrsolo RageOfThou MichaelRaskin saint_cypher jonrafkind Sergio` bweaver reprore gnomon masm rdd mreggen mario-goulart csmrfx leppie|work Zuu tarbo NNshag Fufie TR2N partisan tjafk Checkie tltstc elf borism snorble 00:07:27 -!- names: specbot minion lisppaste emma nullpo jao BD|gone Poeir incubot eno gabot alexsuraci @elly rotty qeb`away ineiros j0ni klutometis zbigniew rapacity peddie tizoc Axioplase_ mbishop C-Keen d3z mornfall Armageddon00 rudybot Khisanth offby1 Terminus ironChicken ecraven yosafbridge roderic pjb @chandler mrd` jyujin_ jay-mccarthy jayne sjamaan nicktastic brx slxix eli kencausey _Jordan_ stepnem felipe mmmulani blackened` Pepe_ dfeuer Mr_Awesome 00:07:27 -!- names: dlouhy mhoye nothingHappens SharkBrain XTL cmatei Leonidas erg tomaw__ duncanm cky sphex xwl_ tabe` Adrinael nutmegmagi z0d Len__ kniu saccade guenthr nowherman joast ve olejorgenb bzzbzz ski antoszka ray jimrees nasloc__ 00:07:43 chandler: it is a bit, tone is hard to read on the nets 00:07:52 in the internets 00:08:07 however, it could be someone doing manual recon, or just a good script 00:08:30 I don't see why someone would write a script for that, but sure 00:08:38 niko [i=niko@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.niko] has joined #scheme 00:08:50 elly: very unlikely but you could turn it into a generic response 00:08:51 hello niko 00:08:56 how goes? 00:09:12 fine, some days 00:09:16 Trust no one. 00:09:20 we have bots :P 00:09:34 Adamant: Several different clients with random-ish nicks have joined some high-traffic channels from that IP in close proximity to attacks on those channels. 00:09:50 that may be some kind of ipv6 to ipv4 handler though 00:09:52 Adamant: The operating theory is "manual recon", then. 00:09:57 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@m208-191.dsl.rawbw.com] has joined #scheme 00:10:11 Sure, but the tunnel endpoint may just be used to mask the real IP of the miscreant. 00:10:26 chandler: right, it could be either 00:10:34 elly: did you try +r or +R ( http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml ) 00:10:44 -!- bone [n=bone@pdpc/supporter/active/b0ne] has left #scheme 00:10:46 niko: chandler doesn't want to use either of those 00:10:54 It seems somewhat odd to me that someone would set up a HE IPv6 tunnel and then use the 6-to-4 bridge to connect to freenode, when freenode has an ipv6 server. 00:10:55 I set them before, but he has more bits than me 00:11:14 niko: I'm not satisfied with that as a general solution, but I may set them until this round of attacks abates. 00:11:38 I have no idea what percentage of our users actually register. We see quite a few new users join to ask questions, especially near the beginning of a semester. 00:11:58 we could set +R and have the topic direct unregistered users to #freenode 00:12:13 in ircd-seven the javascript spam is solved, and /mode +q $~a works with +z 00:12:26 cool, but we're not using ircd-seven yet :P 00:12:33 in some days :) 00:12:44 we could set +R until then... 00:12:49 chandler? 00:13:05 If this really is a matter of days and not weeks, sure. 00:13:17 alright, let's do that 00:13:19 -!- elly has set mode +R 00:14:40 *elly* resumes working on a bot 00:16:06 -!- Shanker [n=Guest@unaffiliated/shanker] has left #scheme 00:16:44 fpxudv [n=aigeibsn@i577BAA09.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 00:16:45 -!- fpxudv [n=aigeibsn@i577BAA09.versanet.de] has quit [K-lined] 00:17:28 -!- mario-goulart [n=user@67.205.85.241] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:19:28 qxlmgbzz [n=zwcl@173.49.218.221] has joined #scheme 00:19:59 sstrickl 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[Excess Flood] 04:16:07 ironChicken [n=nnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #scheme 04:16:35 karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:21:01 -!- MrFahrenheit [n=RageOfTh@users-55-142.vinet.ba] has quit [No route to host] 04:21:47 davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 04:22:00 "Browsers absolutely should not be able to connect to ports unrelated to HTTP." 04:22:09 _That's_ what they think the problem is?! 04:25:29 what 04:25:48 What is the context? 04:27:01 to my question? kili? or to foofs? 04:27:20 -!- alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:27:34 foof's remark 04:28:36 Dorian: what do you have when you first start your reverse procedure? on the first "iteration", that is 04:28:37 -!- karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has left #scheme 04:28:40 alexsuraci [n=alexsura@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 04:29:10 karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has joined #scheme 04:29:13 Dorian: you have a cons cell with the first element, and the rest of the list, right? 04:30:16 Hmm... Guile would get a lot more useful if it had a higher-level gtk interface. 04:31:48 kilimanjaro: From the link Riastradh posted about the Firefox IRC attack. 04:31:58 ahh 04:32:10 yea, that seems fairly narrow minded 04:32:23 -!- davazp [n=user@76.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:33:22 compumpkin: no. its like a (list (list (list 1 2)) 04:33:38 o.O 04:33:44 Not so much narrow-minded as stupid. I run httpd's on a wide range of ports, some of which have /etc/services entries for obscure protocols. 04:33:50 compumpkin: i ran into that issue earlier when i tried to (cons (rev (rest l)) (first l) 04:33:59 How do you determine what is and isn't an HTTP port? 04:34:03 right 04:34:03 compumpkin: that is why the code looks so complicated 04:36:49 *arcfide* raises his short little fury gopher paw in protest to foof's citation. 04:37:05 s/citation/quotation 04:38:28 foof: Would you care to indicate whether your match is more or less capable than the one written by the IU folks? 04:38:48 You said that it doesn't work with R6RS syntax-rules? 04:39:06 Not out of the box, but it's been ported at least once to R6RS. 04:39:35 You should be able to use the xitomatl version. 04:39:36 I'm trying to decide whether I should include IU match in my repository. 04:40:19 Haven't used the IU match, but when I skimmed the source before it seemed much weaker than my match. 04:40:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@c-24-61-43-131.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:40:26 Okay. 04:40:31 Do you have documentation for it? 04:40:33 Which can now do tree searches! :) 04:40:42 Um, what does that mean? 04:40:52 compumpkin: if u stepper the function it brings u step by step. any other ideas yet? i understand if u give up haha 04:40:55 *foof* grumbles about people always wanting documentation 04:41:18 foof: Well, um, yeah. :-) 04:42:46 arcfide: It's basically the old Wright matcher, documented in his paper and also in Gauche's documentation (at least), plus non-linear patterns (e.g. in matching (x _ x) both x's must be EQUAL?), plus the tree patterns. 04:43:21 I'm not familiar with tree patterns. 04:43:26 I've really only used IU's match. 04:43:26 Dorian: I have no idea what you mean by not getting cons cells 04:43:31 Because they're new ;) 04:43:35 Dorian: you have a car and a cdr 04:43:39 Do you have an example? 04:43:43 car is head of the list, cdr is the rest 04:44:21 arcfide: Those are actually documented in the file, search for (x *** y). 04:44:35 yes 04:44:38 saccade_ [n=saccade@209-6-54-113.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:45 when it recurses tho 04:44:52 it doesnt return (list 1 2) 04:45:10 it returns (cons (cons (cdr's and cars l) etc etc 04:45:16 it splits up the list 04:45:19 to what i have already done 04:45:22 and what is still left 04:45:57 and this is all on the basis of (car (car l)) but single element lists run into that issue 04:47:23 foof: I don't seem to have that in the version of match that I have, do you have a new version on your website? If so, what is the address for your website? 04:48:48 http://synthcode.com/scheme/match.scm 04:50:06 Ah, yes. 04:52:56 That's also the version in the chibi-scheme distribution, and I'll write proper documentation at some point. 04:53:20 When chibi has a documentation system (probably scribble-based). 04:53:45 -!- karlw [i=17389@tsunami.OCF.Berkeley.EDU] has left #scheme 04:54:50 After reading the documentation on the tree search, I am still not sure what you mean by it. 04:55:09 And it appears that this match form is much more complicated, but I'm not quite sure it's strictly more powerful. 04:55:20 That is, more powerful compared to IU match. 04:56:16 It's not more complicated (although the tree search is). 04:56:28 Than IU Match? 04:56:34 Oh yes it is. :-) 04:57:41 The same basic types of patterns work, except instead of (a ,b) you write ('a b) 04:58:17 is it possible to find the source code of a built in function in scheme? 04:58:28 like how cond expands or macros to if statements? 04:58:37 So yes, it has many more features, but the common IU Match examples are no more complicated. 04:58:42 foof: And you have ? patterns, and = patterns, and set! patterns and boolean patterns and.... 08:35:07 ccl-logbot [~ccl-logbo@setf.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 08:35:07 08:35:07 -!- names: ccl-logbot Sergio` cky alexsuraci mbishop Zuu duncanm Kusanagi kencausey TR2N Belaf stepnem sepult` tabe` leppie Modius zoke jcowan araujo snorble__ bpalmer Jafet copumpkin Leonidas dlouhy mornfall yosafbridge Quadrescence NNshag saccade_ samth_away cmatei dsmith sloyd fda314925 pavelludiq clog bytecolor rudybot qebab dfeuer hkBst alaricsp AtnNn hosh proq sjamaan eldragon ski_ tjafk foof tltstc Riastradh saccade bipt` Arelius slxix mhoye ente z0d 08:35:07 -!- names: rmrfchik guenthr eli @ChanServ 08:35:09 kilimanjaro [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has joined #scheme 08:35:10 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@c-24-63-67-154.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:35:17 copumpkin 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[~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 08:45:05 nicktastic [~nick@unaffiliated/nicktastic] has joined #scheme 08:45:13 alexsuraci [~alexsurac@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:45:14 -!- Riastradh has set mode +b *!*alexsurac@*.aubnin.fios.verizon.net 08:45:14 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has been kicked from #scheme 08:47:12 -!- rapacity [~prwg@li30-188.members.linode.com] has quit [Changing host] 08:47:12 rapacity [~prwg@unaffiliated/rapacity] has joined #scheme 08:47:27 -!- Riastradh has set mode -o Riastradh 08:47:47 foof, oh, hmm. Since I sha'n't be around much, can you please take care of lifting the ban when necessary? 08:48:01 np 08:48:03 jyujin [~mdeininge@vs166245.vserver.de] has joined #scheme 08:51:01 klutometis [~klutometi@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 08:51:29 -!- klutometis is now known as Guest37287 08:52:49 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 08:52:55 chandler [~n@new.unmutual.info] has joined #scheme 08:53:23 -!- chandler is now known as Guest48884 08:53:51 -!- jcowan [~jcowan@cpe-98-14-172-204.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:54:00 mrd` [~matthew@shinobi.dempsky.org] has joined #scheme 08:56:02 C-Keen [ckeen@pestilenz.org] has joined #scheme 08:56:06 gabot [~eli@winooski.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 08:56:25 Finally. 08:57:36 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@tissot.csail.mit.edu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 08:57:44 incubot [incubot@klutometis.wikitex.org] has joined #scheme 08:58:04 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #scheme 08:59:57 -!- ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has quit [*.net *.split] 08:59:57 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [*.net *.split] 09:02:20 ironChicken [~nnnnnnric@mx.lurk.org] has joined #scheme 09:02:20 bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has joined #scheme 09:02:40 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 09:03:03 melba [~blee@unaffiliated/lazz0] has joined #scheme 09:05:12 although with any luck gabot has little purpose to exist now ;) 09:06:26 It has existed before the spams. There's only a small pile of code that has little purpose now. 09:06:47 ah, OK 09:07:12 gabot: joke 09:07:12 *gabot* mumbles something 09:07:14 Outside the window is a third sign saying, "3rd worst Chinese torture test: Left testicle tied to bedpost." 09:07:14 *gabot* laughs out loud 09:07:25 essential ;) 09:07:44 -!- Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:07:55 -!- TR2N [email@89-180-236-85.net.novis.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:08:03 Khisanth [~Khisanth@pool-151-205-123-229.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 09:08:19 TR2N` [email@89-180-144-225.net.novis.pt] has joined #scheme 09:08:30 felipe [~felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #scheme 09:08:46 Fufie [~innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #scheme 09:10:57 -!- TR2N` is now known as TR2N 09:21:02 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-45-82-65-175-33.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 09:27:03 -!- geckosenator [~sean@adsl-67-112-204-194.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net] 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-!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:33:50 rdd` [~rdd@c83-250-52-182.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 11:35:06 -!- mario-goulart [~user@67.205.85.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:39:40 -!- tjafk [~timj@e176219045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 11:40:28 timj [~timj@e176219045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 11:40:39 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 11:46:41 -!- leppie [~lolcow@196-210-177-77-wblv-esr-3.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [] 11:48:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:49:23 Narrenschiff [~ritchie@xolotl.plus.com] has joined #scheme 11:57:09 -!- timj [~timj@e176219045.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Quit: Client exiting] 12:02:05 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 12:08:54 -!- mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-45-82-65-175-33.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: ..zzZzzZ] 12:09:53 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 12:14:38 masm [~masm@bl7-192-3.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #scheme 12:15:53 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-45-82-65-175-33.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 12:24:03 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 12:27:11 foof` [~user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has joined #scheme 12:31:25 -!- foof [~user@FL1-122-131-157-146.osk.mesh.ad.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:31:57 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 12:38:08 blackened` [~blackened@ip-89-102-22-70.karneval.cz] has joined #scheme 12:39:36 does everyone already know about this? http://jlongster.com/blog/2009/06/17/write-apps-iphone-scheme/ 12:43:51 marcob [~marco@host99-5-dynamic.0-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 12:45:45 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 12:52:42 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:55:58 tomaw [tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #scheme 13:00:36 -!- hkBst_ 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timeout: 276 seconds] 14:55:05 mathk [~mathk@lns-bzn-45-82-65-175-33.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 15:05:19 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:10:33 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:27:30 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:37:38 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:38:43 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:40:16 -!- Checkie [32@unaffiliated/checkie] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:40:34 ventonegro [~alex@189.100.199.161] has joined #scheme 15:40:42 joast [~rick@76.178.178.72] has joined #scheme 15:41:05 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:50:50 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 15:57:52 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:58:09 automejja [~edwin@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:58:23 mejja [~user@c-49b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:02:15 -!- sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:03:48 -!- elderK [~zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 16:04:28 elderK [~zk@125-238-255-11.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #scheme 16:04:28 -!- elderK [~zk@125-238-255-11.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Changing host] 16:04:28 elderK [~zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has joined #scheme 16:05:13 -!- elderK [~zk@pdpc/supporter/active/elderk] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:13 -!- kuribas [~user@94-226-49-174.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)] 16:13:48 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme 16:13:54 -!- ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] has quit [shutting down] 16:18:21 Wait... you guys are all fake users? 16:19:01 -!- tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:19:29 -!- bokr [~eduska@95.154.102.124] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:19:56 sepult [~levgue@xdsl-87-78-171-212.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 16:22:22 -!- offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:24:41 -!- Len_ [~Len@77.126.199.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 16:28:30 schoppenhauer [~christoph@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #scheme 16:33:07 No, we're real users now. (This should remind you of Pinocchio.) 16:34:18 AtnNn [~welcome@modemcable049.173-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 16:34:19 Mikaeel_Mohamed [~Mohamdu@129-97-241-175.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 16:35:58 tarbo [~me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #scheme