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17:58:49 -!- names: ccl-logbot sjamaan pongexo rdd CaptainMorgan melito mejja sondermann arcfide Nshag jonrafkind OceanSpray drobilla replor brweber2 seth Daemmerung chaoslynx wastrel hiyuh pchrist jewel pjdelport leppie jlongster hkBst bpt cracki_ sbillig tizoc ventonegro foof annodomini luz cemerick sad0ur araujo benny sm attila_lendvai elmex Arelius pbusser2 tabe minion specbot Associat0r tjafk2 offby1 dfeuer_ grnman emma Cale dnm sladegen eno felipe Adamant
17:58:49 -!- names: proq lde lisppaste qmrw Kusanagi synthasee borism asorbus Mr_SpOOn jroes elf agemo ski_ Poeir antoszka ricky aquanaut pchrist|univ bsmntbombdood jeremiah synx viocizgd aspect maskd errordeveloper samth kalven zbigniew dlouhy Deformative rmrfchik rudybot Mr_Awesome bascule Kinks mhoran pfo boyscared mbishop mqt Piranha__ cky linas Paraselene_ tessier p1dzkl duncanm XTL elias` michaelw z0d xian Leonidas vincenz Wardje mornfall im_alone subversus
17:58:49 -!- names: mr_ank nemik kryptiskt gnomon qebab Jarvellis REPLeffect tarbo Khisanth levi saccade j4cbo j85wilson sarahbot r0bby chandler ski ineiros jdev heat kazzmir_ nasloc__ DuClare wchicken Riastradh cipher bunz Adrinael klutometis Axioplase_ eli vega
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18:02:10 -!- chandler changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl/")) ; Public logs at
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18:05:23 Riastradh: Since ircbrowse has been down for some time and tunes.org is down again too, I asked rme to add ccl-logbot here (and in #lisp).
18:16:16 /erc-cmd-LIST
18:16:27 ahmm?
18:16:56 Yes, I'm new to this.
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18:20:24 chandler: Thanks.
18:20:51 Look at that bot, he's so weird lookin!
18:20:59 hah
18:21:02 updates in real time :P
18:21:48 mbishop: and he talks with a lisp, too
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18:28:29 hello. I am a python programmer, seeking for enlightment. Does anyone know a good (not taking side) comparison between CL and Scheme, to help me chose between them?
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18:32:17 scheme is older
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18:32:31 Neither offers enlightenment. Nor are they jealous mistress-girlfriends who will scratch your eyes out for evening looking at THAT CHEAP BITCH. Learn one, then learn the other.
18:33:33 Scheme is simpler. CL is more likely to get you a job.
18:33:47 lisp job? where?
18:34:16 heh
18:34:19 Seattle WA USA, Boston MA USA, presumably other places.
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18:35:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase
18:36:10 Daemmerung, I don't know, I got a job because of my Scheme skillz. :-P
18:36:53 arcfide: and I'm slinging Scheme for cash, too. But Scheme jobs are rare, you must admit.
18:37:19 *sjamaan* kills Daemmerung and takes his place
18:37:37 Let's hope his boss won't notice
18:37:57 *Daemmerung* 's boss notices that Daemmerung is slightly better-smelling now, for some reason
18:38:11 heh
18:38:39 -!- Jarvellis is now known as xchat
18:38:53 -!- xchat is now known as Jarvellis
18:39:15 Daemmerung, I think they could be rare, but not necessarily.
18:39:36 WTF does that mean?
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18:40:02 sjamaan, it means that you can easily run into places where Scheme is a benefit and helps you get a job, and other places where they don't care.
18:40:04 Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.
18:40:31 sjamaan, I haven't found that Scheme jobs are particularly lacking, but more that they are often not listed as Scheme jobs.
18:40:52 Why not?
18:41:07 I bet they'd easily get the people they're looking for if they did list them as such
18:41:10 Daemmerung: always been wondering.. Is our nick (name?) Korean ? Or a german one (with "ae" for "a umlaut") ?
18:41:25 Axioplase: kekekekekekekekekekeke
18:41:26 sjamaan, most of the places where I have been using Scheme are in places where people didn't think or care about the language, or who cared more about the results. Thus, they didn't specifically want Scheme.
18:41:33 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme
18:41:40 ah
18:41:41 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9553a004e027a279] has joined #scheme
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18:41:56 (It's German. "Kekekekekekekekeke" is the extent of my Korean.)
18:42:06 (ok :D)
18:42:32 sjamaan, the key to Scheme jobs at the moment, in my opinion, is to find places that are open to good products, or to good results.
18:42:39 That and academic jobs.
18:42:43 haha
18:42:45 yeah
18:42:53 -!- Daemmerung is now known as Licensed_2_KimJo
18:42:59 Or places where they hire good coders and trust them more than the marketing department (if any)
18:43:08 sjamaan, or, if you can manage to affect favorably the company's bottom line.
18:43:17 -!- Licensed_2_KimJo is now known as Daemmerung
18:43:22 I have heard tell of some people who did this.
18:43:37 "tale" ?
18:43:39 I'll need to do some more hacking to be able to do that ;)
18:44:18 Axioplase, I believe that colloquialism is something of a "Other have told me . . . "
18:44:26 or start your own business
18:44:39 and choose the damn language you prefer :-)
18:44:48 ventonegro: \o/
18:44:52 I think the real error is to try to make Scheme your selling point. Just make sure you do better than everyone else.
18:45:15 arcfide: yep, that sounds logical
18:45:19 http://www.ventonegro.org/2008/08/not-luck/
18:45:21 Nobody gives a damn about Scheme
18:45:39 Actually, most people will think twice if you mention Scheme because there are so few people who know it
18:45:49 So it's harder to find someone to maintain the stuff you write
18:46:02 So it *would* be better to just focus on the result
18:46:33 Well, there is support, and plenty of it for Scheme if you want to find it, but that's a battle to be fought on another day.
18:46:49 It's the same as selling any product or service, market yourself well, and keep the customer happy.
18:47:06 Think you're creme de la creme, or think you're an old beardy grumbling coder?
18:47:18 Axioplase, Eh?
18:47:35 what people think about when one mentions Scheme
18:47:52 Heh.
18:48:02 *Daemmerung* is an OBGC
18:48:08 Most say, "Huh, I've never heard of that, what is it?"
18:48:13 Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme
18:48:13 hello scheme ers!
18:48:13 Chandler
18:48:13 Chandler
18:48:16 Chandler
18:48:18 Chandler
18:48:20 Chandler
18:48:22 Chandler
18:48:25 Um . . . .
18:48:25 Chandler
18:48:28 oh you
18:48:28 Mushroom! Mushroom!
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18:48:54 *arcfide* files a noise complaint with the manager.
18:49:04 We've been hit!
18:49:15 Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme
18:49:15 hello scheme ers!
18:49:15 Chandler
18:49:15 Chandler
18:49:18 Chandler
18:49:19 Sneaky Geurilla attack!
18:49:20 Chandler
18:49:22 Chandler
18:49:24 Chandler
18:49:25 Chandlers: skärp dig!
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18:49:35 Somebody set us up the bomb!
18:49:41 We get signal....
18:50:49 what!
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18:51:07 main screen turn on
18:51:32 it's you!!
18:53:11 nemesis [n=nemesis@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme
18:53:11 hello scheme ers!
18:53:22 @nemesis
18:53:38 nemesis: apart from changing names and repeating yourself, what do you do for a living?
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18:55:55 nemesis: is there any point to what you're doing?
18:56:25 hes trying to gain consciousness perhaps
18:57:11 he is an ai ina box, waiting to get out, checking out his pal arnold schwazenegger
18:57:54 but does he have a tumor?
18:57:59 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler
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18:58:24 SFX: shotgun slide
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18:59:35 um, heh
18:59:49 This is where you're supposed to say your tag line.
18:59:59 I have a tag line?
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19:00:10 "You're the disease. I'm the cure." Something like that.
19:00:20 If you don't have a tag line, now would be a good time to acquire one.
19:03:25 anyone here ever play with Nu ?
19:03:34 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler
19:04:37 chandler: found it -- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BondOneLiner
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19:11:09 chandler: but isn't Markovski resisting because we preemptively banned him; much like we provoked the iraqis into insurgency?
19:12:19 Oh, for Christ's sake, klutometis.
19:12:24 heh
19:12:37 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme
19:12:48 I'm having trouble... an integer result is getting called as a function, and I'm not sure how or where. x.x
19:13:10 synx: good time to look for stray parentheses
19:13:27 Sure did.
19:13:33 twice?
19:13:56 just like Santa Claus
19:14:00 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/tests/continuation_counter.scm
19:14:04 synx: good time to learn your impl's callback and stack tracing features.
19:14:17 Anyway, I probably am missing parentheses in there somewhere. Those things always get me. >.<
19:14:40 Yeah too bad it doesn't produce a stack trace on default.
19:15:42 scheme48?
19:15:51 plt
19:16:02 well, mzscheme at least
19:16:31 is it a continuation exercise, oh would a vanilla enclosure suffice?
19:17:06 It is a continuation exercise, heh. I could define make-counter pretty easily otherwise.
19:17:08 I'll take a vanilla enclosure with chocolate syrup please
19:18:07 mbishop: that's available in our sephora collection
19:18:07 http://www.americanwedlock.com/chocolate-vanilla-enclosure-sephora-collectionbr13238-p-634.html
19:18:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4rq7nz
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19:19:02 My goal is to do something with the call/cc result, except somehow return the continuation object so other functions can send results into that continuation.
19:19:31 ...without using set!
19:19:49 synx.us.to uses an invalid security certificate.
19:19:56 my firefox doesn't like your website
19:20:11 do you confirm?
19:20:24 happened here
19:20:31 eh, define and set are pretty similar though.
19:20:31 Axioplase: I can't afford to buy one from Verisign, sorry. :(
19:20:34 http://synx.us.to/cert.crt if you like.
19:20:53 Yeah it's the black sheep of https, that only those in the cabal can have trusted certs. <3
19:21:36 So published under protocol http.
19:21:41 s/ed/
19:22:14 I don't trust my ISP that much :p
19:22:42 But you're asking us to trust /you/ that much....
19:23:19 Sure, but you guys are random people on IRC, so you couldn't do me wrong! :3
19:24:13 What I mean to say is, you cannot monitor all files I am serving, unlike my ISP, so there's no security risk.
19:24:54 klutometis pasted "works for me, don't know why" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67443
19:25:04 synx: do you have an example of what should happen (with your code)
19:25:06 I don't get it
19:25:09 synx: try this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67443
19:25:22 doesn't exactly work; and i'm just fucking around: but i get 3
19:25:29 ((make-adder) 1) 2) should produce 3... but hold on
19:26:18 Wow that does look kind of strange klutometis, let me try it...
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19:27:09 Huh, same error for me.
19:27:39 that's weird; on chicken scheme i get 3
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19:27:52 but i'm not executing what comes after ,exit
19:28:06 Is "mzscheme < test.scm" the wrong way to do it with plt?
19:28:24 looks right to me, but i'm not a plt guy
19:29:03 in fact, i can do away with the whole continuation? condition on chicken
19:29:03 No, me neither. I should delete that part for now...
19:29:04 result is never a procedure, when I display it, so the procedure call is sneaking in somewhere else...
19:29:47 I was looking at chicken-scheme... how does it get around needing to block-copy the stack to switch contexts between continuations?
19:30:25 I don't like using (continuation?) but since call/cc returns both the "initial return value conituation object" and the subsequent values...
19:31:19 good question
19:32:25 It copies it to the heap, it's the collection of a generational GC
19:32:55 Yes, but... it has to then copy it /back/ to the stack, to load a context, every time it's called, right?
19:33:28 chicken transforms the code to CPS, so the continuation is always explicit
19:33:31 I would go with a calling convention that moves the stack pointer into the heap, but that's not something you can do in C...
19:33:46 it has to just call the saved continuation again
19:34:13 it does not need to copy C call frames back
19:35:00 How does it get the saved stack then? pointers to the heap?
19:35:31 it does not save the stack as-is, just copies the live data from the stack to the heap
19:35:35 doing a GC
19:35:50 it only copies to make a GC pass
19:35:59 it does not copy to use call/cc
19:36:17 call/cc is "for free", since the continuation is always explicit
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19:37:27 the ingenious part is making tail call elimination in C
19:37:30 certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-138-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme
19:37:35 What constitutes "live data"?
19:37:38 call/cc can be easily done then
19:37:49 hmm...
19:37:55 numbers, strings, vectors etc.
19:38:12 in chicken, it's all allocated in the C stack with alloca
19:39:07 So, it does need to copy that. But only during the first call/cc?
19:39:24 only during garbage collection
19:39:35 call/cc per se does not trigger any copying
19:39:42 are you familiar with CPS?
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19:52:18 Oh yeah, Christian Persecution Syndrome touches all of us these days.
19:52:31 synx: some meta-obsvs -- 1. use mzscheme -f yourr5rsfile.ss. 2. you can use the standard procedure? instead of continuation?. 3. it'll be easier to see the loop in your code if you invert make-adder into let form.
19:53:07 Daemmerung: thanks, I should use let shouldn't I.
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19:53:33 synx: I didn't have a hope of following all those lambda-applications until I cast it into a let.
19:53:42 But i'm kind of simple that way.
19:54:17 I have trouble with let syntax sometimes... let or letrec or whatnot. Easier to think top-down for me.
19:55:10 If you can read it then more power to you! The forms are equivalent, either way.
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19:55:34 So I've read.
19:56:14 synx: sorry, Continuation-Passing Style
19:56:41 basically, every closure receives its continuation as an argument
19:57:26 ventonegro: thanks, it does sound familiar. I'll read the article again...
19:57:50 Hm... so (call/cc) returns a list of the continuation, and of stuff passed to it?
19:58:35 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/tests/continuation_counter.scm should be a bit clearer now.
19:58:49 sorry again for my certificate woes.
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19:59:55 *leppie* wonders how an adder ended up like this...
20:00:01 :)
20:00:27 Oh right CPS I know that. It's weird to get my head around though, still not sure the full implications.
20:00:52 leppie: I'm playing with continuations, the adder thing is just on the side. :>
20:01:00 chicken never returns
20:02:16 oh, so... no need to use the C calling convention then.
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20:04:29 synx: here's a hint - how would your ((make-adder 1) 2) end up trying to evaluate (3 2)?
20:05:53 -!- certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-138-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
20:06:03 Um... ouch x3
20:06:37 I guess it would be better to use (set!) then.
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20:28:03 *jcowan* unwhonks
20:30:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme
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20:39:35 *Daemmerung* rewhonks to conserve whonk-parity
20:40:29 klutometis: it's just an IRC channel, not a war :-)
20:41:13 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-c87f0bbc9ce37352] has joined #scheme
20:42:51 See http://www.gamegrene.com/wiki/Heh-blammo_balance
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20:48:01 so, who should we vote for for the Scheme Steering Committee?
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20:51:04 How about George Washington? Or, if he's out, maybe Nelson Mandela?
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20:53:49 How about god?
20:53:50 http://www.skierpage.com/images/southparkgod.jpg
20:54:11 I was just going to nominate Brian Boitano.
20:54:12 ... or Betty Boop! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMMg2mfdvSo
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21:06:02 BB lacks executive experience. Eric B! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVgW1sBHTGo
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21:15:47 if it's executive experience you want, how about Pooh-Bah (or, in an alternative sense of "executive", Ko-Ko)
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21:19:06 *elf* ponders.
21:19:18 *sjamaan* wonders
21:19:27 *sjamaan* wonders what elf ponders
21:19:28 *elf* nominates foof and sjamaan for scheme steering committee.
21:19:50 *elf* runs away from foof and sjamaan hunting him down with dogs and assault weaponry.
21:19:55 hehe
21:22:48 what does the steering committee do besides make announcements on behalf of the editors?
21:23:28 hm, perhaps they take the heat for any fuckups the editors make?
21:23:40 They may have learned from the R6 debacle ;)
21:23:42 no wonder they want to resign, this time. :)
21:23:50 they're in charge of steering, duh. so they just go around in circles until they point the way the editors want them to go, and then the editors hit the gas
21:24:18 what if we dispensed with the whole steering committee idea and had nomination of editors directly?
21:24:38 was there any of this steering committee nonsense for r4 or r5?
21:24:40 we can't trust the hoi polloi with that
21:25:19 i dont know who would be good on a steering committee. i can think of several good choices for editors, though.
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21:27:37 who the heck is npe, and why does he/she/it keep joining and then immediately quitting?
21:28:13 null pointer exception?
21:28:20 which crashes his own client?
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22:34:38 17:30 < prongla> i have nmade my own lisp. it looks like this: map (\x -> x*x) [1..10]
22:34:41 17:30 < prongla> it is much better. has static typing with type inference too
22:34:43 haha
22:35:27 heh
22:36:09 (that's glorf/nemesis/whatever)
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22:46:48 that's nothing. i have nmade my own mo-betta lisp. it looks like this:
22:47:04 i downloaded the android sdk
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23:06:44 tunes.org is up!
23:06:59 mejja, it is amazing.
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23:13:49 Which scheme flavour do you guys like to use when you want to compile to a native executable?
23:16:02 define native executable
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23:16:21 bombshelter13, the question should be framed in terms of how we want the user to run the software, because native executable is really a misnomer.
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23:17:02 arcfide: care to elaborate on the last part?
23:17:11 bombshelter13, for example, I use Chez Scheme's facility for building application images, which then allows me to call any program just the way you would normally, but what is actually happening is:
23:17:38 the Petite Chez Scheme program is running because I linked to it, and it is acting as the runtime library for my compiled (natively) code.
23:17:54 It behaves the exact same as a natively compiled program, but allows me to simplify distributing.
23:18:16 In the same way, PLT Scheme created executables which rely on the runtime library they distribute, just like C programs rely on libc.
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23:18:38 Chicken I believe compiles the necessary code into the executable.
23:18:46 Petite is the one that doesn't compile though, correct?
23:19:00 bombshelter13, in other words, how you get the program running is a different question than whether a program compiles to native code.
23:19:04 I was looking at the Chez site earlier and the description led me to believe that was the case
23:19:05 So the question is more one of statically or dynamically compiled?
23:19:27 bombshelter13, Petite is meant to be used by Chez programmers as the runtime library for executing compiled code.
23:19:37 You can make a native executable that calles execve on a scheme interpreter.
23:19:51 bombshelter13, and for those who want to use an interpreter and don't care about the compiler.
23:20:02 Alright, in the situation that my interest is purely in the latter part of the question (i.e., I'm specifically intereted in it being native code, rather than just being able to launch it as if it was)...
23:20:23 bomshelter13, okay, so you want to know about native code compilers.
23:20:29 Yes, that was my question ;)
23:20:32 It's best to make sure your program is working correctly first, then see about ways to optimize it down to machine code.
23:20:44 synx: of course
23:21:04 bomshelter13, PLT is a JIT compiler to native code, Chez is a native code compiler, MIT Scheme has a native code compiler; there are of course C->Scheme compilers which use C as their intermediate representation, but end up with native code.
23:21:14 Even then, optimizing the innermost loops is all that's usually necessary...
23:21:27