17:58:49 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 17:58:49 17:58:49 -!- names: ccl-logbot sjamaan pongexo rdd CaptainMorgan melito mejja sondermann arcfide Nshag jonrafkind OceanSpray drobilla replor brweber2 seth Daemmerung chaoslynx wastrel hiyuh pchrist jewel pjdelport leppie jlongster hkBst bpt cracki_ sbillig tizoc ventonegro foof annodomini luz cemerick sad0ur araujo benny sm attila_lendvai elmex Arelius pbusser2 tabe minion specbot Associat0r tjafk2 offby1 dfeuer_ grnman emma Cale dnm sladegen eno felipe Adamant 17:58:49 -!- names: proq lde lisppaste qmrw Kusanagi synthasee borism asorbus Mr_SpOOn jroes elf agemo ski_ Poeir antoszka ricky aquanaut pchrist|univ bsmntbombdood jeremiah synx viocizgd aspect maskd errordeveloper samth kalven zbigniew dlouhy Deformative rmrfchik rudybot Mr_Awesome bascule Kinks mhoran pfo boyscared mbishop mqt Piranha__ cky linas Paraselene_ tessier p1dzkl duncanm XTL elias` michaelw z0d xian Leonidas vincenz Wardje mornfall im_alone subversus 17:58:49 -!- names: mr_ank nemik kryptiskt gnomon qebab Jarvellis REPLeffect tarbo Khisanth levi saccade j4cbo j85wilson sarahbot r0bby chandler ski ineiros jdev heat kazzmir_ nasloc__ DuClare wchicken Riastradh cipher bunz Adrinael klutometis Axioplase_ eli vega 17:59:58 peter_12 [n=peter_12@d75-157-225-201.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 18:02:10 -!- chandler changed the topic of #scheme to: (map surf-to '("http://schemers.org/" "http://community.schemewiki.org/" "http://library.readscheme.org/" "http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/" "http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/" "http://www.htdp.org/" "http://www.scheme.com/tspl/")) ; Public logs at 18:04:16 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 18:04:22 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #scheme 18:05:23 Riastradh: Since ircbrowse has been down for some time and tunes.org is down again too, I asked rme to add ccl-logbot here (and in #lisp). 18:16:16 /erc-cmd-LIST 18:16:27 ahmm? 18:16:56 Yes, I'm new to this. 18:19:48 -!- pongexo [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:58 pongexo [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:20:24 chandler: Thanks. 18:20:51 Look at that bot, he's so weird lookin! 18:20:59 hah 18:21:02 updates in real time :P 18:21:48 mbishop: and he talks with a lisp, too 18:23:19 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-0b8c91ac0bf438d9] has joined #scheme 18:24:06 -!- pongexo [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:24:27 pongexo [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:24:37 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 18:27:09 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #scheme 18:28:29 hello. I am a python programmer, seeking for enlightment. Does anyone know a good (not taking side) comparison between CL and Scheme, to help me chose between them? 18:30:19 xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has joined #scheme 18:32:17 scheme is older 18:32:30 npe_ [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-f409f404f2be6e2b] has joined #scheme 18:32:30 -!- npe_ [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-f409f404f2be6e2b] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:31 Neither offers enlightenment. Nor are they jealous mistress-girlfriends who will scratch your eyes out for evening looking at THAT CHEAP BITCH. Learn one, then learn the other. 18:33:33 Scheme is simpler. CL is more likely to get you a job. 18:33:47 lisp job? where? 18:34:16 heh 18:34:19 Seattle WA USA, Boston MA USA, presumably other places. 18:34:53 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@d75-157-225-201.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:57 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 18:36:10 Daemmerung, I don't know, I got a job because of my Scheme skillz. :-P 18:36:53 arcfide: and I'm slinging Scheme for cash, too. But Scheme jobs are rare, you must admit. 18:37:19 *sjamaan* kills Daemmerung and takes his place 18:37:37 Let's hope his boss won't notice 18:37:57 *Daemmerung* 's boss notices that Daemmerung is slightly better-smelling now, for some reason 18:38:11 heh 18:38:39 -!- Jarvellis is now known as xchat 18:38:53 -!- xchat is now known as Jarvellis 18:39:15 Daemmerung, I think they could be rare, but not necessarily. 18:39:36 WTF does that mean? 18:39:48 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-0b8c91ac0bf438d9] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:40:02 sjamaan, it means that you can easily run into places where Scheme is a benefit and helps you get a job, and other places where they don't care. 18:40:04 Colorless green ideas sleep furiously. 18:40:31 sjamaan, I haven't found that Scheme jobs are particularly lacking, but more that they are often not listed as Scheme jobs. 18:40:52 Why not? 18:41:07 I bet they'd easily get the people they're looking for if they did list them as such 18:41:10 Daemmerung: always been wondering.. Is our nick (name?) Korean ? Or a german one (with "ae" for "a umlaut") ? 18:41:25 Axioplase: kekekekekekekekekekeke 18:41:26 sjamaan, most of the places where I have been using Scheme are in places where people didn't think or care about the language, or who cared more about the results. Thus, they didn't specifically want Scheme. 18:41:33 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:41:40 ah 18:41:41 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9553a004e027a279] has joined #scheme 18:41:41 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9553a004e027a279] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:41:56 (It's German. "Kekekekekekekekeke" is the extent of my Korean.) 18:42:06 (ok :D) 18:42:32 sjamaan, the key to Scheme jobs at the moment, in my opinion, is to find places that are open to good products, or to good results. 18:42:39 That and academic jobs. 18:42:43 haha 18:42:45 yeah 18:42:53 -!- Daemmerung is now known as Licensed_2_KimJo 18:42:59 Or places where they hire good coders and trust them more than the marketing department (if any) 18:43:08 sjamaan, or, if you can manage to affect favorably the company's bottom line. 18:43:17 -!- Licensed_2_KimJo is now known as Daemmerung 18:43:22 I have heard tell of some people who did this. 18:43:37 "tale" ? 18:43:39 I'll need to do some more hacking to be able to do that ;) 18:44:18 Axioplase, I believe that colloquialism is something of a "Other have told me . . . " 18:44:26 or start your own business 18:44:39 and choose the damn language you prefer :-) 18:44:48 ventonegro: \o/ 18:44:52 I think the real error is to try to make Scheme your selling point. Just make sure you do better than everyone else. 18:45:15 arcfide: yep, that sounds logical 18:45:19 http://www.ventonegro.org/2008/08/not-luck/ 18:45:21 Nobody gives a damn about Scheme 18:45:39 Actually, most people will think twice if you mention Scheme because there are so few people who know it 18:45:49 So it's harder to find someone to maintain the stuff you write 18:46:02 So it *would* be better to just focus on the result 18:46:33 Well, there is support, and plenty of it for Scheme if you want to find it, but that's a battle to be fought on another day. 18:46:49 It's the same as selling any product or service, market yourself well, and keep the customer happy. 18:47:06 Think you're creme de la creme, or think you're an old beardy grumbling coder? 18:47:18 Axioplase, Eh? 18:47:35 what people think about when one mentions Scheme 18:47:52 Heh. 18:48:02 *Daemmerung* is an OBGC 18:48:08 Most say, "Huh, I've never heard of that, what is it?" 18:48:13 Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:48:13 hello scheme ers! 18:48:13 Chandler 18:48:13 Chandler 18:48:16 Chandler 18:48:18 Chandler 18:48:20 Chandler 18:48:22 Chandler 18:48:25 Um . . . . 18:48:25 Chandler 18:48:28 oh you 18:48:28 Mushroom! Mushroom! 18:48:47 -!- Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:54 *arcfide* files a noise complaint with the manager. 18:49:04 We've been hit! 18:49:15 Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:15 hello scheme ers! 18:49:15 Chandler 18:49:15 Chandler 18:49:18 Chandler 18:49:19 Sneaky Geurilla attack! 18:49:20 Chandler 18:49:22 Chandler 18:49:24 Chandler 18:49:25 Chandlers: skärp dig! 18:49:25 -!- Chandlers [n=Chandler@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:35 Somebody set us up the bomb! 18:49:41 We get signal.... 18:50:49 what! 18:50:53 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-e81108c6021f9631] has joined #scheme 18:50:53 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-e81108c6021f9631] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:51:07 main screen turn on 18:51:32 it's you!! 18:53:11 nemesis [n=nemesis@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #scheme 18:53:11 hello scheme ers! 18:53:22 @nemesis 18:53:38 nemesis: apart from changing names and repeating yourself, what do you do for a living? 18:55:43 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 18:55:55 nemesis: is there any point to what you're doing? 18:56:25 hes trying to gain consciousness perhaps 18:57:11 he is an ai ina box, waiting to get out, checking out his pal arnold schwazenegger 18:57:54 but does he have a tumor? 18:57:59 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 18:58:17 -!- chandler has set mode -b *!*=Markovsk@*.bredband.skanova.com 18:58:24 SFX: shotgun slide 18:58:52 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #scheme 18:58:53 -!- chandler has set mode +b *!*@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com 18:59:06 -!- pongexo [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #scheme 18:59:35 um, heh 18:59:49 This is where you're supposed to say your tag line. 18:59:59 I have a tag line? 19:00:05 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9f6fade7a6f22c78] has joined #scheme 19:00:05 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9f6fade7a6f22c78] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:00:10 "You're the disease. I'm the cure." Something like that. 19:00:20 If you don't have a tag line, now would be a good time to acquire one. 19:03:25 anyone here ever play with Nu ? 19:03:34 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 19:04:37 chandler: found it -- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BondOneLiner 19:09:17 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-dffe78e5965b791f] has joined #scheme 19:09:17 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-dffe78e5965b791f] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:11:09 chandler: but isn't Markovski resisting because we preemptively banned him; much like we provoked the iraqis into insurgency? 19:12:19 Oh, for Christ's sake, klutometis. 19:12:24 heh 19:12:37 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B65.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 19:12:48 I'm having trouble... an integer result is getting called as a function, and I'm not sure how or where. x.x 19:13:10 synx: good time to look for stray parentheses 19:13:27 Sure did. 19:13:33 twice? 19:13:56 just like Santa Claus 19:14:00 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/tests/continuation_counter.scm 19:14:04 synx: good time to learn your impl's callback and stack tracing features. 19:14:17 Anyway, I probably am missing parentheses in there somewhere. Those things always get me. >.< 19:14:40 Yeah too bad it doesn't produce a stack trace on default. 19:15:42 scheme48? 19:15:51 plt 19:16:02 well, mzscheme at least 19:16:31 is it a continuation exercise, oh would a vanilla enclosure suffice? 19:17:06 It is a continuation exercise, heh. I could define make-counter pretty easily otherwise. 19:17:08 I'll take a vanilla enclosure with chocolate syrup please 19:18:07 mbishop: that's available in our sephora collection 19:18:07 http://www.americanwedlock.com/chocolate-vanilla-enclosure-sephora-collectionbr13238-p-634.html 19:18:09 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4rq7nz 19:18:29 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-c6c05b92b696fd45] has joined #scheme 19:18:29 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-c6c05b92b696fd45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:19:02 My goal is to do something with the call/cc result, except somehow return the continuation object so other functions can send results into that continuation. 19:19:31 ...without using set! 19:19:49 synx.us.to uses an invalid security certificate. 19:19:56 my firefox doesn't like your website 19:20:11 do you confirm? 19:20:24 happened here 19:20:31 eh, define and set are pretty similar though. 19:20:31 Axioplase: I can't afford to buy one from Verisign, sorry. :( 19:20:34 http://synx.us.to/cert.crt if you like. 19:20:53 Yeah it's the black sheep of https, that only those in the cabal can have trusted certs. <3 19:21:36 So published under protocol http. 19:21:41 s/ed/ 19:22:14 I don't trust my ISP that much :p 19:22:42 But you're asking us to trust /you/ that much.... 19:23:19 Sure, but you guys are random people on IRC, so you couldn't do me wrong! :3 19:24:13 What I mean to say is, you cannot monitor all files I am serving, unlike my ISP, so there's no security risk. 19:24:54 klutometis pasted "works for me, don't know why" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67443 19:25:04 synx: do you have an example of what should happen (with your code) 19:25:06 I don't get it 19:25:09 synx: try this: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67443 19:25:22 doesn't exactly work; and i'm just fucking around: but i get 3 19:25:29 ((make-adder) 1) 2) should produce 3... but hold on 19:26:18 Wow that does look kind of strange klutometis, let me try it... 19:26:45 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-88.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["School"] 19:27:09 Huh, same error for me. 19:27:39 that's weird; on chicken scheme i get 3 19:27:40 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-363166cc54065761] has joined #scheme 19:27:40 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-363166cc54065761] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:52 but i'm not executing what comes after ,exit 19:28:06 Is "mzscheme < test.scm" the wrong way to do it with plt? 19:28:24 looks right to me, but i'm not a plt guy 19:29:03 in fact, i can do away with the whole continuation? condition on chicken 19:29:03 No, me neither. I should delete that part for now... 19:29:04 result is never a procedure, when I display it, so the procedure call is sneaking in somewhere else... 19:29:47 I was looking at chicken-scheme... how does it get around needing to block-copy the stack to switch contexts between continuations? 19:30:25 I don't like using (continuation?) but since call/cc returns both the "initial return value conituation object" and the subsequent values... 19:31:19 good question 19:32:25 It copies it to the heap, it's the collection of a generational GC 19:32:55 Yes, but... it has to then copy it /back/ to the stack, to load a context, every time it's called, right? 19:33:28 chicken transforms the code to CPS, so the continuation is always explicit 19:33:31 I would go with a calling convention that moves the stack pointer into the heap, but that's not something you can do in C... 19:33:46 it has to just call the saved continuation again 19:34:13 it does not need to copy C call frames back 19:35:00 How does it get the saved stack then? pointers to the heap? 19:35:31 it does not save the stack as-is, just copies the live data from the stack to the heap 19:35:35 doing a GC 19:35:50 it only copies to make a GC pass 19:35:59 it does not copy to use call/cc 19:36:17 call/cc is "for free", since the continuation is always explicit 19:36:51 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-69032aa87b7b2a73] has joined #scheme 19:36:51 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-69032aa87b7b2a73] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:37:27 the ingenious part is making tail call elimination in C 19:37:30 certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-138-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:35 What constitutes "live data"? 19:37:38 call/cc can be easily done then 19:37:49 hmm... 19:37:55 numbers, strings, vectors etc. 19:38:12 in chicken, it's all allocated in the C stack with alloca 19:39:07 So, it does need to copy that. But only during the first call/cc? 19:39:24 only during garbage collection 19:39:35 call/cc per se does not trigger any copying 19:39:42 are you familiar with CPS? 19:46:03 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-d5c61b8f122a5bcc] has joined #scheme 19:46:03 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-d5c61b8f122a5bcc] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:52:18 Oh yeah, Christian Persecution Syndrome touches all of us these days. 19:52:31 synx: some meta-obsvs -- 1. use mzscheme -f yourr5rsfile.ss. 2. you can use the standard procedure? instead of continuation?. 3. it'll be easier to see the loop in your code if you invert make-adder into let form. 19:53:07 Daemmerung: thanks, I should use let shouldn't I. 19:53:29 -!- dfeuer_ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:53:33 synx: I didn't have a hope of following all those lambda-applications until I cast it into a let. 19:53:42 But i'm kind of simple that way. 19:54:17 I have trouble with let syntax sometimes... let or letrec or whatnot. Easier to think top-down for me. 19:55:10 If you can read it then more power to you! The forms are equivalent, either way. 19:55:15 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-76ee6c5ef64cac0c] has joined #scheme 19:55:15 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-76ee6c5ef64cac0c] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:55:34 So I've read. 19:56:14 synx: sorry, Continuation-Passing Style 19:56:41 basically, every closure receives its continuation as an argument 19:57:26 ventonegro: thanks, it does sound familiar. I'll read the article again... 19:57:50 Hm... so (call/cc) returns a list of the continuation, and of stuff passed to it? 19:58:35 https://synx.us.to/feepcode/tests/continuation_counter.scm should be a bit clearer now. 19:58:49 sorry again for my certificate woes. 19:59:23 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:55 *leppie* wonders how an adder ended up like this... 20:00:01 :) 20:00:27 Oh right CPS I know that. It's weird to get my head around though, still not sure the full implications. 20:00:52 leppie: I'm playing with continuations, the adder thing is just on the side. :> 20:01:00 chicken never returns 20:02:16 oh, so... no need to use the C calling convention then. 20:02:52 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless294.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:02:54 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless294.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:04:19 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-206-216.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 20:04:26 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-dcae775efdd55e35] has joined #scheme 20:04:26 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-dcae775efdd55e35] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:04:29 synx: here's a hint - how would your ((make-adder 1) 2) end up trying to evaluate (3 2)? 20:05:53 -!- certainty [n=closure@dslb-082-083-138-151.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:06:03 Um... ouch x3 20:06:37 I guess it would be better to use (set!) then. 20:13:37 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-284ee61e44a32aa4] has joined #scheme 20:13:37 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-284ee61e44a32aa4] has quit [Success] 20:15:57 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Success] 20:22:48 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-bec8d56119ed31d1] has joined #scheme 20:22:48 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-bec8d56119ed31d1] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:27:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #scheme 20:28:03 *jcowan* unwhonks 20:30:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 20:31:59 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-62c22f3d26f34b2c] has joined #scheme 20:31:59 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-62c22f3d26f34b2c] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:38:14 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:39:35 *Daemmerung* rewhonks to conserve whonk-parity 20:40:29 klutometis: it's just an IRC channel, not a war :-) 20:41:13 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-c87f0bbc9ce37352] has joined #scheme 20:42:51 See http://www.gamegrene.com/wiki/Heh-blammo_balance 20:42:55 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-c87f0bbc9ce37352] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:48:01 so, who should we vote for for the Scheme Steering Committee? 20:50:04 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 20:50:25 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-89a702d131d366c1] has joined #scheme 20:50:25 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-89a702d131d366c1] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:51:04 How about George Washington? Or, if he's out, maybe Nelson Mandela? 20:51:07 clog [n=nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 20:52:20 MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 20:53:48 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:49 How about god? 20:53:50 http://www.skierpage.com/images/southparkgod.jpg 20:54:11 I was just going to nominate Brian Boitano. 20:54:12 ... or Betty Boop! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMMg2mfdvSo 20:59:37 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-2fbc72f5f8c0b722] has joined #scheme 20:59:37 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-2fbc72f5f8c0b722] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:06:02 BB lacks executive experience. Eric B! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVgW1sBHTGo 21:08:48 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-2e38d1737ca15389] has joined #scheme 21:09:44 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-206-216.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["Dinner!"] 21:11:30 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-2e38d1737ca15389] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:47 if it's executive experience you want, how about Pooh-Bah (or, in an alternative sense of "executive", Ko-Ko) 21:17:35 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:17:59 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-3e4b8918fec9ecac] has joined #scheme 21:17:59 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-3e4b8918fec9ecac] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:19:06 *elf* ponders. 21:19:18 *sjamaan* wonders 21:19:27 *sjamaan* wonders what elf ponders 21:19:28 *elf* nominates foof and sjamaan for scheme steering committee. 21:19:50 *elf* runs away from foof and sjamaan hunting him down with dogs and assault weaponry. 21:19:55 hehe 21:22:48 what does the steering committee do besides make announcements on behalf of the editors? 21:23:28 hm, perhaps they take the heat for any fuckups the editors make? 21:23:40 They may have learned from the R6 debacle ;) 21:23:42 no wonder they want to resign, this time. :) 21:23:50 they're in charge of steering, duh. so they just go around in circles until they point the way the editors want them to go, and then the editors hit the gas 21:24:18 what if we dispensed with the whole steering committee idea and had nomination of editors directly? 21:24:38 was there any of this steering committee nonsense for r4 or r5? 21:24:40 we can't trust the hoi polloi with that 21:25:19 i dont know who would be good on a steering committee. i can think of several good choices for editors, though. 21:26:01 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless294.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:05 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless294.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 21:27:11 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-93abb1ed75ee2eb6] has joined #scheme 21:27:11 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-93abb1ed75ee2eb6] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:27:37 who the heck is npe, and why does he/she/it keep joining and then immediately quitting? 21:28:13 null pointer exception? 21:28:20 which crashes his own client? 21:28:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:35:44 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:36:22 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9196dcc5ff3c857c] has joined #scheme 21:36:22 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-9196dcc5ff3c857c] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:37:21 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.77] has joined #scheme 21:37:31 -!- im_alone is now known as maxote 21:38:41 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #scheme 21:39:55 Arelius|Home [n=Arelius@netblock-68-183-230-106.dslextreme.com] has joined #scheme 21:41:09 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 21:41:36 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.203.88] has joined #scheme 21:50:52 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:33 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:59:25 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:59:35 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:32 -!- xerox [n=xerox@unaffiliated/xerox] has quit [] 22:01:28 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 22:01:51 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.77] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 22:09:00 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 22:11:41 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 22:12:04 benny` [n=benny@i577A059C.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 22:16:42 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 22:24:52 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 22:26:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A017C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:51 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:30:45 annodomini [n=lambda@129.170.131.200] has joined #scheme 22:31:55 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:34:38 17:30 < prongla> i have nmade my own lisp. it looks like this: map (\x -> x*x) [1..10] 22:34:41 17:30 < prongla> it is much better. has static typing with type inference too 22:34:43 haha 22:35:27 heh 22:36:09 (that's glorf/nemesis/whatever) 22:39:24 -!- MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:34 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:40:37 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:41:11 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 22:46:48 that's nothing. i have nmade my own mo-betta lisp. it looks like this: 22:47:04 i downloaded the android sdk 22:49:31 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:47 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 22:49:48 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:51:12 dfeuer_ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #scheme 22:52:18 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:00 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B053B65.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:50 Elly_ [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 22:54:58 -!- Elly_ [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:56:26 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [No route to host] 22:59:30 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 23:06:44 tunes.org is up! 23:06:59 mejja, it is amazing. 23:08:13 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:13:49 Which scheme flavour do you guys like to use when you want to compile to a native executable? 23:16:02 define native executable 23:16:14 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:16:21 bombshelter13, the question should be framed in terms of how we want the user to run the software, because native executable is really a misnomer. 23:16:28 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 23:17:02 arcfide: care to elaborate on the last part? 23:17:11 bombshelter13, for example, I use Chez Scheme's facility for building application images, which then allows me to call any program just the way you would normally, but what is actually happening is: 23:17:38 the Petite Chez Scheme program is running because I linked to it, and it is acting as the runtime library for my compiled (natively) code. 23:17:54 It behaves the exact same as a natively compiled program, but allows me to simplify distributing. 23:18:16 In the same way, PLT Scheme created executables which rely on the runtime library they distribute, just like C programs rely on libc. 23:18:24 -!- drobilla [n=dave@CPE0006256d8ed8-CM00159a63e6ba.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:38 Chicken I believe compiles the necessary code into the executable. 23:18:46 Petite is the one that doesn't compile though, correct? 23:19:00 bombshelter13, in other words, how you get the program running is a different question than whether a program compiles to native code. 23:19:04 I was looking at the Chez site earlier and the description led me to believe that was the case 23:19:05 So the question is more one of statically or dynamically compiled? 23:19:27 bombshelter13, Petite is meant to be used by Chez programmers as the runtime library for executing compiled code. 23:19:37 You can make a native executable that calles execve on a scheme interpreter. 23:19:51 bombshelter13, and for those who want to use an interpreter and don't care about the compiler. 23:20:02 Alright, in the situation that my interest is purely in the latter part of the question (i.e., I'm specifically intereted in it being native code, rather than just being able to launch it as if it was)... 23:20:23 bomshelter13, okay, so you want to know about native code compilers. 23:20:29 Yes, that was my question ;) 23:20:32 It's best to make sure your program is working correctly first, then see about ways to optimize it down to machine code. 23:20:44 synx: of course 23:21:04 bomshelter13, PLT is a JIT compiler to native code, Chez is a native code compiler, MIT Scheme has a native code compiler; there are of course C->Scheme compilers which use C as their intermediate representation, but end up with native code. 23:21:14 Even then, optimizing the innermost loops is all that's usually necessary... 23:21:27 synx, in some case, this can actually hurt more than it saves. 23:21:35 You forgot Larceny, you insensitive clod! 23:21:45 chandler, sorry, I forgot. :v) 23:22:06 gambit, chicken, rscheme... 23:22:15 bombshelter13, note Larceny, and Ikarus, and Stalin, and Gambit, and Chicken, and Bigloo, and . . . 23:22:50 bombshelter13, some people might not consider C->Scheme compilers truly compiling to native code, though, so I guess that depends on what you want. In the end, C as an intermediate language isn't that big of a deal. 23:22:53 (C->Scheme?) 23:22:56 arcfide: I'll try looking up some of those, but I was primarily looking for opinions/preferences, not a list of what exists, hence the initial phrasing. 23:23:03 Riastradh, ....Oops. 23:23:12 If I wrote a C program in gcc, that invokes the /usr/bin/cc file using fork and execve, compiles an object that I then dynamically link with and use, is that native code, or interpreted? Even C can be considered interpreted in that sense. Just optimized. 23:23:13 bombshelter13, I meant Scheme->C. 23:23:15 A C to Scheme compiler would be wicked. 23:23:25 I'm aware of a C++ to Scheme compiler, and a C to Zetalisp compiler, but no C to Scheme compiler... 23:23:37 bombshelter13, I use Chez and MIT Scheme. 23:24:34 When I look for native code compilers, I more look for stuff that eliminates things like block memory copying, hash calculations, unneccessary filesystem operations... the stuff that can be optimized down to asm usually has been already... 23:24:36 arcfide: what advantage makes Chez worth buying over MIT? Speed, or something else? 23:24:50 arcfide doesn't need to buy Chez, because he's at IU 23:24:57 the rest of the world does not get such a sweet deal :-) 23:25:02 ...which is why I was asking about the expensiveness of switching between coroutines 23:25:14 Ahh... if one were to have to buy it, is it pricey? The site doesn't seem to actually list individual liscence prices 23:25:30 chandler, I actually have bought it. 23:25:38 arcfide: really? wow. 23:26:08 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless294.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:26:42 don't professors normally pay the graduate students, and not the other way around? :-) 23:28:22 anyone know how to stop mzscheme on osx from printing ^H when hitting backspace? 23:29:00 that's an issue with your terminal... shouldn't be specific only to the mzscheme program. 23:29:20 jroes: that isn't the standard OS X terminal configuration, so you've done something to your terminal. 23:29:26 jroes: try Ctrl+backspace 23:29:32 can't say I've figured how to fix that 100% though. putty can be so stubborn... 23:29:44 ctrl+backspace produces the same result 23:29:54 bah 23:30:02 are you using Terminal, or something else? 23:30:09 is mzscheme local, or are you running it over ssh? 23:30:16 I've probably set something in Terminal a while back so that when I'm ssh'ed into my IRC screen I can hit backspace properly 23:30:29 using Terminal, mzscheme is running locally 23:30:41 Yes, you probably clicked the option to have delete send Control-H. 23:30:46 It's almost never the right thing. 23:31:07 The better thing would be to set a TERM value on your remote host which works. I find that "xterm-debian" is actually a close match to Apple's terminal. 23:32:17 (You probably also never noticed that it was misconfigured due to bash's "magic".) 23:34:54 crashmatrix [n=crashmat@s5590785f.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 23:36:05 after correcting the setting, it seems only screen sessions suffer from the non-working backspace issue 23:36:16 remote screens over ssh, that is 23:37:06 ^[[3~ is what shows up in an mzscheme session within a screen on a remote machine 23:37:13 when pressing backspace 23:37:21 anyways, I'll fiddle around. this isn't #terminal-help :) 23:37:21 export TERM=xterm-debian before running screen 23:37:32 at least, that's how I solve it currently 23:37:48 every channel is #terminal-help :) 23:37:49 stty erase ^H 23:37:51 ah, works. thanks :) 23:37:53 would be faster :) 23:38:14 terminal emulation works so rarely 23:38:26 *elf* mutters about terminals and their emulations. 23:38:26 elf: yes, but try making emacs happy with that :-) 23:38:43 chandler: try making emacs happy with anything. thats why i use vi. 23:38:52 heretic! 23:38:56 burn the witch! 23:39:00 aren't you the same elf that idles in #emacs :) 23:39:03 When Mama Emacs ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. 23:39:04 or is that e1f 23:39:14 if im going to be typing gibberish, at least i know im typing in gibberish, i dont try to pretend that meta-c-meta-x-control-q is intuitive. 23:39:25 i am not the person on #emacs. 23:39:29 everyone asks me that. 23:39:32 haha, sorry :) 23:39:37 i just said i use vi. ergo, no emacs :) 23:39:41 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:39:43 its oke. 23:39:48 mornin raikov. 23:40:38 bombshelter13, the reasons for using Chez over MIT Scheme for myself is because it is much faster, and it works for what I need it to do. MIT Scheme has arbitrary limits on memory size and some stability issues that I couldn't use when I needed to build certain applications. It's also more userfriendly for me, with documentation. 23:40:48 chandler, I use Chez for commercial development, and hence, I need the license. 23:40:57 I also had the license purchased before I was at IU. 23:41:12 arcfide: how much is the liscence? 23:41:28 bombshelter13, well, um, hehe, which license do you want? 23:41:36 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-39-160.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:41:37 *sladegen* holds his breath. 23:41:56 You can pay for continuing maintainence, which requires a more expensive site or company license. 23:42:06 Or, you can get the developer license. 23:42:12 Either one is rather expensive. 23:42:42 arcfide; Hm, dev license I suppose? I'm not gonna run out and buy it or anything, just curious 23:43:33 Oh, and chandler, I am also a heretic, being an nvi user (not Vim, strict nvi in OpenBSD base). 23:43:40 *sladegen* turns bluish. 23:44:02 bombshelter13, low $1000 to $1500, IIRC. I think either $900 something or $1300 something. 23:44:18 Heh, that is pricey 23:44:29 That's all? Man, I was bracing for an Allegro/Cincom style reaming. 23:44:31 bombshelter13, yes, but the technical support is stellar. 23:44:49 Daemmerung, that doesn't get you the option of a proper support license. 23:44:57 arcfide: yeah, I'm sure it's worth it if to get if you're making money off your Scheme work. 23:45:14 (remove 'if'...) 23:45:20 bombshelter13, well, even commercially, it may not be worth it, but it was worth it for me. 23:45:33 Daemmerung, the site and other licenses are more expensive. 23:45:50 bombshelter13, I like MIT Scheme and Chez for their debuggers and profiling. 23:46:14 bombshelter13, because of the environments and features of these two, i tend to only use them except when someone here wants to compare their pet implementation to Chez in a benchmark. 23:46:27 I'll probably take a look at MIT and see how it compares to what I've toyed with so far. 23:46:29 Well, MS VS2008 "Professional" (lowest grade) non-upgrade is $800 retail. Currently $670 at Amazon. I don't think Chez is out of line. 23:46:47 Daemmerung, Heh, probably not. 23:46:58 Daemmerung, and it's certainly a better product. ;-) 23:47:49 bombshelter13, Riastradh, here is the resident MIT Scheme hacker. 23:47:57 people pay for programming environments now? 23:48:02 when did this happen? 23:48:02 Adamant, Hahah. 23:48:17 Adamant, people pay for all sorts of strange things that exist only in virtual space. 23:48:20 *mejja* points arcfide at the pirate bay... 23:48:36 mejja, Puttooey. 23:48:43 Mejja, unless we are talking fansub anime or the like. 23:48:48 Ptui ditto. One shouldn't shit where one sleeps. 23:48:50 arcfide: i don't suppose you got the source code? 23:49:52 sladegen, of course. 23:50:07 sladegen, I mean, of course not. 23:50:16 arcfide: I understand paying more for quality tools like icc, but nobody really pays for most tools anymore at this point. 23:50:49 and I'm not talking about piracy or anything like that 23:50:54 oh my, elf isn't e1f? are they nemeses? 23:51:01 *elf* sighs. 23:51:05 heya arcfide. 23:51:09 elf, hey. 23:51:45 one is the founder of the Erlang Liberation Front. the other likes leetspeek and Will Farrell movies. 23:51:50 I can't understand people who use vi 23:52:08 prog, it's convenient in its own way. 23:52:15 fakl aew sadfjwl asflweifa werlfias mwer0fmaz 23:52:19 You don't need to understand. You only need to accept. 23:52:25 I mean, when there's vim 23:52:34 vim, the emacs of vi. 23:53:01 see, theres this concept called 'resource constraints' that people seem to have forgotten. 23:53:36 yes, because 16 megs of Emacs is a real drain when my freakin' IM client uses 64 23:53:38 an editor needs to edit well. 23:53:56 my im client uses about 256k 23:54:06 elf: command line one? 23:54:14 yeah. 23:54:16 ah 23:54:34 I'm a GUI whore for anything but programming 23:55:56 i only use x so i can have multiple terms with scrollback on the screen simul 23:57:12 vi currently uses about 1.5M Resident, and the highest user programs for me in terms of memory consumption are the XTerms I have open. 23:57:51 Oh, well, and stinkin' firefox, which I would drop in a heartbeat if I could. 23:58:00 lynx 23:58:09 elf, I use that when I can. :-) 23:58:36 Chez uses about 7M when I first open it, but lately I've been running it at aobut 900M - 1.2G. 23:58:48 Adamant: hmm.. I didn't know that about e1f. More importantly, one hacks scheme and the other hacks elisp 23:58:50 X itself is, by far, the largest prog in terms of memory i have open 23:59:01 elf, so what's up? 23:59:10 Besides X.Org's memory consumption? 23:59:12 i have a class in 1 minute so i must go :) 23:59:16 *mejja* lives in a shoebox in the middle of the road... 23:59:29 besides that, i live in a shoebox in my parents house atm. life is bad. i need a job. 23:59:35 talk later :) 23:59:48 Adamant, I agree that most people don't need to pay for toos, but sometimes the expenditure is worth it. 23:59:58 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-61-175.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:01:15 bombshelter13, what exactly are your needs in an implementation? 00:01:36 Also, why are you hanging out in both #perl and #scheme? You are crazy. :-) 00:02:24 arcfide: no immediate actual need, I'm learning, and curious what's out there, so trying to learn. Yes, I am probably crazy too. ;) 00:02:40 bombshelter13, okay, great then. 00:04:53 -!- melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:10:13 Perl has some interesting stuff. interesting, but wacky... but interesting 00:11:01 Adamant, such as? 00:11:37 arcfide: I like the way you can enter large amounts of text that stops at a keyword. 00:12:02 -!- sbillig [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has quit [] 00:12:04 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@192.18.37.228] has quit [] 00:12:21 I'm not sure it's worth the price, but it's interesting. 00:18:59 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 00:19:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:59 Adamant, eh? 00:20:16 Adamant, you mean, like BEGIN QUOTED .... END QUOTED? 00:22:19 -!- dfeuer_ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:22:21 just looked it up - they call it "here document" syntax 00:23:00 like print < Adamant, well, I'm not sure I would consider that an interesting feature, but yeah, it does differentiate it from Scheme. 00:23:07 r2q2 [n=user@dyn246-03.cod.edu] has joined #scheme 00:23:16 arcfide: well it's not all that important 00:23:18 Some idiot deface the wiki with hacked by ... 00:23:20 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:23:25 I just thought it was interesting 00:23:34 *defaced 00:23:38 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 00:23:51 I can see why it was added into Perl. 00:23:52 dfeuer_ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:58 What kind of idiot defaces a wiki with hacked by ...??? 00:27:38 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 00:28:52 I have a hard time using emacs, because its keybindings often assume the qwerty keymapping. At least vim's "special" commands use a logical not geographic syntax, :w for write :e for edit etc. 00:29:25 jklh are still hardcoded, but then the arrow keys perform the same function. :3 00:29:25 synx: oh, you're a dvorak demi-god, too? 00:30:00 synx, er, Emacs's keys are usually logical, not geographical. In fact, I'm not aware of any `geographical' ones, whereas four of the dozen or so keys I'm aware of in vi are geographical... 00:30:58 Riastradh: C-x C-s is no coincidence, i think 00:31:13 If it's no coincidence then I think it's a mistake, and likewise C-x C-c. 00:31:41 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 00:31:46 But the `s' undoubtedly refers to `save buffer', just like the `w' in `C-x C-w' refers to `write file'. 00:32:04 That may be so; but C-x C-c? 00:32:15 What mneumonic lords there? 00:32:28 mnem* 00:32:36 I don't know, and I don't particularly care, either -- I never type it. If I must exit Emacs, I type `M-x s a v e SPC b u f f e r s SPC k i l l SPC e m a c s RET', a very mnemonic sequence of keys. 00:33:04 Heh; is it a monastic discipline to avoid tab completion? 00:33:10 (or, perhaps more like `M-x s a v SPC b u f SPC s SPC k i SPC SPC') 00:33:22 Riastradh, that's a lot of typing. 00:33:40 Yes, arcfide. I'd rather type a lot for a rare scenario than accidentally kill Emacs frequently. 00:33:47 However, Emacs isn't that hard to use on a Dvorak keyboard. 00:33:54 -!- r2q2 [n=user@dyn246-03.cod.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:00 I take it you have C-z disabled, too. 00:34:14 C-z is my screen escape key. 00:34:43 klutometis, I however, have one up on the Dvorak warriors. 00:34:54 So to background Emacs I'd have to type `C-z z', which is irrelevant in screen anyway. 00:34:54 arcfide: oh, even more esoteric? 00:34:59 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:35:05 klutometis, I use a DataHand. 00:35:45 aha; i meant to try one of those; nevertheless, certain chords like C-x C-s C-x C-c require maximal stretching in dvorak 00:36:02 C-x is very awkward 00:36:25 klutometis, when I was using a Dvorak keyboard, I cheated a bit, and let myself use my right hand to type those combinations. 00:36:33 klutometis: really? I type it very often in dvorak, so it's not so bad here 00:36:46 proq: not so bad, sure, but it can't get much worse 00:36:49 Huh? C-x is no more awkward on Dvorak than C-b on Qwerty, and C-b is more frequently typed than C-x on Emacs! 00:36:54 C-x is the maxmila stretch, i believe 00:36:54 ...in Emacs. 00:37:18 *arcfide* dines. 00:37:23 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:33 arcfide: whining and dining I see ;) 00:39:05 that may be; but the local maximum of C-x is made more obtrusive for dvoracists, i'd argue, since there is less neurological priming for discomfort 00:39:16 *Riastradh* blinks. 00:39:51 for qwertians, discomfort is to be expected; with all the frequent keys in bizarre locations 00:40:03 *Riastradh* raises several eyebrows 00:40:04 . 00:40:10 I'm sorry; you're speaking nonsense. Please try again. 00:40:40 with dvorak, i rarely venture off of the home row; with qwerty it was a very frequent occurence 00:40:54 therefore, any ventures off the home row in dvorak are conspicuous 00:41:46 sbillig [n=sbillig@71-83-41-95.dhcp.dlth.mn.charter.com] has joined #scheme 00:45:54 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-128.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:47:30 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 00:50:44 dfeuer__ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has joined #scheme 00:51:45 -!- dfeuer_ [n=dfeuer@68.143.159.162.nw.nuvox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:52:22 sooo... is that 'new qwerty', or 'qwerty with caps->control'? 00:53:32 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 00:53:58 Caps->control makes for some real comfortable C-x-ing... 00:55:12 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:43 here i am 00:55:47 using ubuntu again 00:55:59 now to figure out how to get VLC on this shiz 00:56:38 apt-get vlc? 00:56:45 wuzzat? 00:57:13 *bombshelter13* switches distros. :/ 00:57:17 aptitude is recommended these days 00:57:25 over VLC? since when? 00:57:50 "aptitude install vlc"; or fier up synaptic (or prefs->package manager or whatever the hell ti's called in the gnome menus) if you want a gui 00:58:04 wutzvlc? 00:59:00 *aspect* takes the opportunity to fume about the way gnome obfuscates the programs it's actually running 00:59:26 Logite: aptitude is much better at installing software than VLC. 00:59:39 we're talking about video lan codec right 00:59:44 the media player? 01:00:02 I thought we were talking about how to install it on ubuntu 01:00:16 annodomini [n=lambda@c-75-69-95-99.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:00:36 i'm new to linux and coding, figured i'd switch from window$ 01:01:56 hi 01:02:08 apt-cache policy vlc 01:02:19 you mayIf you will be using the Eclipse IDE as your environment for developing Android applications, you can install a custom plugin called Android Development Tools (ADT), which adds integrated support for Android projects and tools. The ADT plugin includes a variety of powerful extensions that make creating, running, and debugging Android applications faster and easier. 01:02:24 eew 01:02:46 sorry 01:02:55 you may have to enable the multiverse repo 01:03:05 this is foreign to me :) 01:03:11 i'll try to figure it out myself 01:03:22 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:03:39 google is helpful 01:04:18 I'm not sure where decent ubuntu documentation lives; there's a lot on the forums but check the date of threads before you try doing what they suggest :) 01:04:21 one thing i haven't been able to find after looking is how to disable the damned mouse acceleration in ubuntu 01:04:39 i hate mouse acceleration 01:11:01 help.ubuntu.com 01:11:10 What's the best way to bind return values to multiple parameters? Like (let (((a b) (lambda () 2 3)))) setting a to 2, and b to 3, or something... 01:11:14 also system>preferences > keyboard and mouse prolly 01:11:14 Logite: perhaps 'man xset' 01:11:16 something like that 01:11:25 in a pinch ;-> 01:11:42 also it's Gnome, not Ubuntu. 01:12:07 X is dead! 01:12:10 Though both of those groups probably know the answer. 01:12:22 long live X! 01:13:21 r5rs receive 01:13:22 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for receive. 01:13:25 r5rs values 01:13:25 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_572 01:13:27 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/yoye9g 01:13:47 I could say (let* ((result ((lambda 2 3))) (a (car result)) (b (car (cdr result))))))))))... 01:13:55 schemexref receive 01:14:36 http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi?receive 01:15:01 aspect: thanks, neat! 01:15:09 synx: they're for you. The schemexref page won't be as helpful as the SRFI it cites, but schemexref is handy anyway :-) 01:15:17 synx, you may find that some implementations provide RECEIVE or LET-VALUES, but these should also be available as SRFIs. 01:15:42 r5rs call-with-values 01:15:42 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_574 01:15:44 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/5pbxgd 01:15:45 wastrel: there is an #android 01:15:50 I personally use LET-VALUES. 01:15:54 that's the srfi-free way of doing it, but it's annoying 01:16:16 aspect, I think that it was always intended to be wrapped around something else. 01:16:43 bombshelter13, what distro do you use? 01:16:47 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #scheme 01:16:55 arcfide: agreed. I also agree that LET-VALUES is nicer :-) 01:17:13 but RECEIVE occurred to me first; from memory one of the implementations I commonly use doesn't have RECEIVE 01:17:24 aspect, well, I don't know about nicer, but it's more flexible and easier for me to work with. 01:17:29 arcfide: at the moment I have a mixture of Ubuntu and Fedora machines, as well as some Macs 01:17:52 If I had more time I'd go back to Slack, but... other things to do. 01:18:12 *bombshelter13* isn't too crazy about Fedora, so far, but it's what he's learning in school, so... *shrugs* 01:18:57 Slackware and OpenBSD are both nice. ;-) 01:19:52 Hey, I can't recall, but was there ever a list of Schemes that supported native threading? 01:20:07 I know Chez does, but I don't know about any others. 01:20:16 I think PLT does, right, but Gambit doesn't? 01:20:29 I used to be a fan of Slackware, but got lazy about updating it... I do hope to one day go back. 01:20:41 PLT did, and ceased to do so, a long time ago. 01:20:52 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:21:00 Whether support for OS threads has been reinstated since then, I don't know. 01:21:13 Riastradh, really? Do you know why they did that? 01:21:48 About call-with-values, doesn't it have to pass the continuation as an argument? It just runs call/cc inside the handler...? 01:21:54 Probably because it was difficult to maintain correctly. 01:22:02 I see. 01:22:30 synx, invocation of CWV does not imply invocation of CWCC. 01:22:51 synx: don't confuse yourself .. err what Riastradh said :) 01:22:56 So what if you just return something from the "producer" argument... 01:23:15 rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () 3) (lambda (three) three)) 01:23:16 Riastradh: ; Value: 3 01:23:28 rudybot: eval (call-with-values (lambda () (values 1 2 3)) (lambda (x y z) (list z y x))) 01:23:29 Riastradh: ; Value: (3 2 1) 01:23:30 bombshelter13, lazy about updating, huh? I find that funny, considering that Slackware releases its versions usually over a year apart. 01:24:23 arcfide: : yeah, which means you either painstakingly update all the things you care about by hand, or don't get them updated very often. 01:24:24 (values) implies invocation of CWCC 01:24:30 No, synx. 01:24:32 it's lack of tools to "sanitify" -current updates "automation" 01:27:35 *arcfide* shrugs. 01:27:36 I think what I'm looking for is just... apply. (apply (lambda (a b) (+ a b)) '(2 3))) would work right... 01:27:51 synx, um . . . 01:27:53 Sure it wouldn't be (let) but it's close enough. 01:27:53 One possible definition of VALUES uses CWCC. 01:28:10 synx, do you have a list, or do you have an expression that yields multiple values? 01:28:24 *synx* just wanted to take list "result" and spread it out into arguments. 01:28:52 Riastradh: Define 'yield' 01:29:04 The expression (VALUES 1 2 3) yields multiple values. 01:29:21 To be perfectly precise, the evaluation of that expression passes three values to the continuation of the evaluation. 01:30:41 Oh, so hm... 01:30:41 No I still don't get it. xp 01:30:50 -!- tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has quit ["Riece/5.0.0 Emacs/22.2 (berkeley-unix)"] 01:31:07 tabe [n=tabe@210.188.204.133] has joined #scheme 01:31:11 (list (values 1 2 3)) produces an error, so I guess it doesn't really return... 01:31:34 synx, a procedure in Scheme can return more than one value. 01:31:34 Evaluating (VALUES 1 2 3) in the process of evaluating (LIST ...) passes three values to a continuation that expects one. 01:32:33 *sladegen* intones "smoke on the water..." 01:33:15 Where does this continuation say what it expects...? You mean that by default all um... expressions return once, so that values does 3 times means it can't be used like another normal procedure? 01:33:25 By default all continuations expect one value. 01:33:42 Ok that makes more sense. 01:33:43 Those created by CALL-WITH-VALUES expect as many values as the consumer procedure expects arguments. 01:34:19 What if the consumer procedure has a rest argument? Then it just depends on the producer? 01:34:38 synx: If you're still using PLT then you can look up `let-values'. 01:34:40 Then the continuation expects at least as many values as the consumer procedure expects required arguments. 01:35:33 What if the producer does not stop producing values? Obviously couldn't make an infinite argument list... 01:36:21 arcfide: At some point in the distant past it became too difficult to keep things so that native thread support is working, 01:36:24 It can return only a fixed number of values at one time. It can't produce some, which will be passed to the consumer, and then produce some more -- similarly, one cannot pass some arguments to a procedure, leaving some unspecified, and then later pass some more arguments. 01:36:50 but there is a new project now to have native threads support in addition to Scheme threads. 01:36:51 Well yes, but...hm... 01:37:28 So it has to "yield" all these values at once, so what's the difference between just evaluating to a list containing those values? 01:37:51 klutometis: C-x C-c is very mnemonic -- it's "like" C-c to quit Emacs, where C-x is the Emacs equivalent of "like". 01:38:06 That means that the caller has to spend effort constructing an object to store them, and the callee has to spend effort deconstructing the object to retrieve them. 01:38:27 Or, what's the difference between just passing lists as single arguments to all procedures? 01:38:33 s/between/from/1 01:39:13 I don't know really. 01:39:22 eli, I see, thank you for the explanation. 01:43:03 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-107-254-172.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:44:11 Anyone know a way I can remap keys such that I can get round brackets without needing to hit shift in OS X? 01:44:57 bombshelter13, you might be able to do that in the editor of your choice. 01:45:30 However, you might be better served to just use an editor that makes dealing with Parentheses more easy than to try to remap your fingers to non-standard locations. 01:45:46 bombshelter13, assuming that parentheses cause you that much trouble. 01:46:16 arcfide: :) I'm just trying to find ways to optimize the configuration I have 01:46:39 it's hardly a huge problem if I can't, but if I could it would be kind of handy, so why not try? 01:47:14 bombshelter13, it might require you having to edit your keymaps, which is possible, but I don't think it's particularly fun. 01:47:41 arcfide: maybe we have different ideas of fun :) 01:48:38 bombshelter13, well, then lookup how to modify keymaps in OS X. You might try looking for the fils and seeing what you get. 01:55:14 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:33 arcfide: no luck finding something that works on the current version unfortunately. :/ Maybe I can remap it in the editor *reads manuals*. 02:04:02 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #scheme 02:06:19 moof 02:13:20 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 02:14:59 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:16:35 *arcfide* now has a working spamd set up, cool. 02:18:40 Did you already have an MTA running that had a spam problem? 02:18:53 Riastradh, yeah. :-) 02:19:14 Riastradh, just a tiny one though, not too bad, and spamd has cut that back down to a manageable level. 02:19:53 *elf* names his spam daemon eggd 02:20:09 Oh, speaking of names, I need a good name for a Scheme Gopher server. 02:20:17 aiur [n=Jan@218.72.71.57] has joined #scheme 02:20:22 ...Gopher? 02:20:23 *Riastradh* hiccups. 02:20:28 *arcfide* chuckles. 02:20:44 I knew that would get you. 02:20:46 Yes, Gopher. 02:21:10 way2gopher ? 02:21:12 Why...? 02:21:17 *elf* likes gopher. 02:21:23 Riastradh, because. 02:22:19 i am curious why youre making a gopher server, too, though. 02:22:30 its bloody hard finding live gopher sites these days. 02:22:37 elf, the thought just struck me that it would be a curious little project. 02:22:48 curious in the sense of pointless? 02:22:57 *arcfide* chuckles. 02:22:59 or in some other sense? 02:23:12 i like gopher, and i wouldnt even do this :) 02:23:24 the web should have stopped with gopher. 02:23:29 unfortunately, it didnt. 02:23:34 we must learn to live in this world. 02:23:37 as much as it sucks. 02:23:41 elf, consider it another one of my weird ideas. 02:24:08 oke.... 02:24:17 Besides, what's the harm? 02:24:25 how much time do you have in your life/ 02:24:34 elf, I never said when I was going to write it. 02:24:38 oh. :) 02:24:41 elf, I still have a sockets library to finish. 02:24:52 I was just thinking about it, and seeing if I could find a name. 02:24:56 ah. 02:25:27 The thought *might* have crossed my mind, to put most of my documents in CVS and Gopher repositories, with *maybe* a web proxy. 02:25:44 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 02:25:49 You are a very silly person. 02:25:54 Riastradh, indeed. 02:25:55 :-) 02:28:17 Well, the thought occured to me mostly because I realized that any web software that I write for myself personally is very often similar in some respects to the layout of a gopher server. 02:29:45 No name suggestions? :-P 02:30:44 for what? 02:30:46 arcfide: i concur about gopher, by the way; a pious hyperspace from more pious times 02:31:13 goscher, of course, would be the scheme gopher 02:31:15 klutometis, concur about what? That's it's silly and useless today, or that it was neat back when. 02:31:15 ? 02:31:51 that it's quaint and makes me nostalgic; it might even be useful 02:32:10 there's even a nice pun built into goscher: "yeah, but is it goscher?" 02:32:13 badabum 02:32:25 *arcfide* chuckles. 02:33:13 pronounced "gosher", of course 02:34:19 What's the deal with pickles? 02:34:38 sweet ones are for the birds 02:34:44 If I don't live in some remote area far from modern conveniences, why is my food preserved in vinegar? 02:35:00 kilimanjaro: because it makes your food cheaper 02:35:04 or people like the taste 02:35:07 why is it preserved at all by, e.g. refrigeration? 02:35:08 one of the above 02:35:40 in the case of pickles 02:35:44 it's the taste 02:41:26 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 02:41:26 02:41:26 -!- names: ccl-logbot kilimanjaro aiur echo-area tabe wasabi_ hiyuh annodomini Logite dfeuer__ raikov sbillig gweiqi hadronzoo tizoc crashmatrix MichaelRaskin_ CaptainMorgan bombshelter13 benny` Daemmerung nowhere_man arcfide Arelius|Home clog OceanSpray sjamaan rdd sondermann replor seth chaoslynx wastrel pchrist pjdelport leppie bpt cracki_ foof luz sad0ur araujo elmex Arelius pbusser2 minion specbot Associat0r tjafk2 offby1 grnman emma Cale dnm 02:41:26 -!- names: sladegen eno felipe Adamant proq lde lisppaste qmrw Kusanagi synthasee borism asorbus Mr_SpOOn jroes elf agemo ski_ Poeir antoszka ricky aquanaut pchrist|univ bsmntbombdood jeremiah synx viocizgd aspect maskd errordeveloper samth kalven zbigniew dlouhy Deformative rmrfchik rudybot Mr_Awesome bascule Kinks mhoran pfo boyscared mbishop mqt Piranha__ cky linas Paraselene_ tessier p1dzkl duncanm XTL elias` michaelw z0d xian Leonidas vincenz 02:41:26 -!- names: Wardje mornfall maxote subversus mr_ank nemik kryptiskt gnomon qebab Jarvellis REPLeffect tarbo Khisanth levi saccade j4cbo j85wilson sarahbot r0bby chandler ski ineiros jdev heat kazzmir_ Adrinael klutometis Axioplase_ eli vega bunz cipher Riastradh wchicken DuClare nasloc__ 02:44:24 Chik-Fil-A sandwiches are great 02:44:30 just order them without pickles 02:44:49 you can add condiments but they aren't really needed 02:45:56 i'll have to try it sometime, but it looks vaguely reminiscent of kfc without bones 02:46:06 it's much better 02:46:06 klutometis: it's a standard Southern businessman accent 02:46:08 klutometis, no comparison. 02:46:09 yes 02:46:23 KFC is not nearly as good quality 02:47:00 ah, good; so you guys do have a palette, then ;) 02:47:02 and Chik-Fil-A also usually hires better staff than other fast food restaurants, so there are fewer wrong orders or screwups 02:47:45 also KFC isn't even the best fried chicken joint 02:47:51 Adamant, or at least, they know what to do when they get it wrong. 02:47:57 i used to visit fort bragg a lot, where i'd hear a similar accent 02:48:37 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 02:48:59 best fried chicken joints are not chain, of course. 02:49:16 or even regular fast food, but "sit down" places 02:50:01 so popeye's and harold's are quite out 02:50:30 well, the rule of thumb for chain fried chicken joints is "the ghettoer the better" 02:51:12 if there's a significant risk of you getting shot on your way to pick up your order, it's probably alright 02:51:52 Adamant, that's true, especially if you are going to a place where you are trespassing on good old southern property. 02:52:06 Beware the 12 gauge. 02:53:14 arcfide: indeed, but I'm mostly talking about chains like Church's, which are usually only found in low income areas where commercial property values are depressed - which in turn is usually "the ghetto". 02:53:30 sounds like roscoe's chicken and waffles out this way; nothing gets the digestion going like a sprint through the parking lot 02:53:48 pretty much same principle 02:54:07 there's Kennedy Friend Chicken in the Northeast as well, and other small chains 13:11:58 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 13:11:58 13:11:58 -!- names: ccl-logbot Associat0r annodomini papermachine xwl bombshelter13 umis cemerick tarbo kuribas eno__ sonderma` schumaml jeremiah attila_lendvai mhoran mmc1 sladegen vorpal REPLeffect certainty|work Khisanth hiyuh OceanSpray tjafk2 jonrafkind tizoc chaoslyn1 elmex nanothief kilimanjaro tabe crashmatrix CaptainMorgan benny` Daemmerung nowhere_man clog sjamaan rdd replor seth pchrist pjdelport leppie bpt cracki_ foof sad0ur araujo Arelius pbusser2 13:11:58 -!- names: minion specbot offby1 grnman emma Cale dnm felipe proq lde lisppaste qmrw Kusanagi synthasee borism asorbus Mr_SpOOn jroes elf agemo ski_ Poeir ricky aquanaut pchrist|univ bsmntbombdood synx viocizgd aspect maskd errordeveloper samth kalven zbigniew dlouhy Deformative rmrfchik rudybot Mr_Awesome bascule Kinks pfo boyscared mbishop mqt Piranha__ cky linas Paraselene_ tessier p1dzkl duncanm XTL elias` michaelw z0d xian Leonidas vincenz Wardje 13:11:58 -!- names: mornfall maxote subversus mr_ank nemik kryptiskt gnomon qebab Jarvellis levi saccade j4cbo j85wilson sarahbot r0bby chandler ski ineiros jdev heat kazzmir_ Adrinael klutometis Axioplase eli vega bunz cipher Riastradh wchicken DuClare nasloc__ 13:12:05 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:20 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:13:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:15:16 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #scheme 13:15:16 13:15:16 -!- names: ccl-logbot Associat0r papermachine xwl bombshelter13 umis cemerick tarbo kuribas eno__ sonderma` schumaml jeremiah attila_lendvai mhoran mmc1 sladegen vorpal REPLeffect certainty|work Khisanth hiyuh OceanSpray tjafk2 jonrafkind tizoc chaoslyn1 elmex nanothief kilimanjaro tabe crashmatrix CaptainMorgan benny` Daemmerung nowhere_man clog sjamaan rdd replor seth pchrist pjdelport leppie bpt cracki_ foof sad0ur araujo Arelius pbusser2 minion 13:15:16 -!- names: specbot offby1 grnman emma Cale dnm felipe proq lde lisppaste qmrw Kusanagi synthasee borism asorbus Mr_SpOOn jroes elf agemo ski_ Poeir ricky aquanaut pchrist|univ bsmntbombdood synx viocizgd aspect maskd errordeveloper samth kalven zbigniew dlouhy Deformative rmrfchik rudybot Mr_Awesome bascule Kinks pfo boyscared mbishop mqt Piranha__ cky linas Paraselene_ tessier p1dzkl duncanm XTL elias` michaelw z0d xian Leonidas vincenz Wardje mornfall 13:15:16 -!- names: maxote subversus mr_ank nemik kryptiskt gnomon qebab Jarvellis levi saccade j4cbo j85wilson sarahbot r0bby chandler ski ineiros jdev heat kazzmir_ nasloc__ DuClare wchicken Riastradh cipher bunz vega eli Axioplase Adrinael klutometis 13:15:50 aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has joined #scheme 13:16:13 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:24 tizoc_ 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[n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 14:40:22 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 14:43:08 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 14:49:41 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:28 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 14:52:43 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@2002:c6ca:19fb:80b:f085:2dff:fec7:1dee] has left #scheme 14:55:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 15:04:10 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-131-6.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:34 arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-207-88.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has joined #scheme 15:11:16 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 15:17:52 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:19:18 sbillig [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has joined #scheme 15:19:25 . 15:19:38 -!- sbillig [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has left #scheme 15:24:33 Ewww... a sbillig dropping... 15:27:16 twa sbillig, and the slithy trove 15:30:26 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:31:57 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-13-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 15:32:13 -!- aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:17 brweber2 [n=brweber2@192.18.37.228] has joined #scheme 15:42:01 who are you calling slithy? 15:43:15 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:18 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 15:48:28 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:50 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has joined #scheme 15:50:09 Does MIT Scheme have threading? 15:50:12 wastrel: don't get your gimbles in a gyre 15:51:03 *Daemmerung* misses a deadline 15:53:25 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-24-248.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:49 grkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:56:55 good job, Daemmerung! 16:01:41 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 16:03:12 swoosh! 16:03:39 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:03:42 mmc2 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has joined #scheme 16:05:41 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-13-194.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:43 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-36-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 16:05:48 *Daemmerung* watches the repo man take his laptop 16:05:54 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 16:07:32 -!- mmc2 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:22 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:28 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:25 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 16:12:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:49 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 16:13:34 pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 16:14:23 sbillig_ [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has joined #scheme 16:16:50 -!- sbillig_ [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has left #scheme 16:17:14 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 16:20:44 -!- grkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 16:20:44 liufeng [n=user@wi-secure-1594.cc.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 16:24:55 -!- schumaml [i=c19b5f04@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7f0b46aeab4d20e0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:25:02 -!- liufeng [n=user@wi-secure-1594.cc.umanitoba.ca] has left #scheme 16:27:57 fridim_ [n=fridim@gar13-5-88-161-23-155.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:30:09 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #scheme 16:41:32 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:45:18 Blah, why do I always get sucked into benchmark wars? 16:45:44 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:57 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 16:46:18 The xkcd about "Somewhere on the Internet, somebody is WRONG!" comes to mind. 16:50:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:50 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:52:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:40 I have that posted on my wall :) 16:55:40 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:38 -!- chaoslyn1 [n=cpehle@mnhm-590fbfd3.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:57:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 16:59:13 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:20 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:02:14 i like some comic (i cant recall where) that goes: I cant come now, something is wrong on the Internet 17:02:55 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 17:04:59 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:06:10 xkcd 17:06:37 probably :p 17:07:08 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@121-82-184-134.eonet.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:07:31 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:48 melito [n=melito@70.99.250.82] has joined #scheme 17:10:14 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:11:48 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:12:20 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:13:04 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:15:38 http://xkcd.com/386/ 17:19:53 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:08 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 17:21:25 sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.224.114] has joined #scheme 17:21:57 :] 17:21:59 yeah 17:25:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:52 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@121-82-184-134.eonet.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:27:00 woohoo, i wrote 65 line of documentation! 17:27:04 time to celebrate 17:27:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:59 oops make that 55 lines :| 17:30:18 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[n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:57:23 arcfide, yes, MIT Scheme supports threading. Not very well, but it does support threading. 17:59:02 Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has joined #scheme 18:05:08 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 18:10:19 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:10:23 annodomini [n=lambda@nat-204-172.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:10:45 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:12:01 djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-016-166.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:12:56 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@156-56-207-88.dhcp-bl.indiana.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:15:44 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-18.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 18:37:03 HALtheComputer [n=root@unaffiliated/halthecomputer] has joined #scheme 18:40:42 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:40:48 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 18:40:59 jeja [n=user@67-207-147-148.slicehost.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:37 i know there has to be a way to optimize this program it is taking big-O of n squared time :( http://pastebin.ca/1211711 18:44:15 -!- jeja [n=user@67-207-147-148.slicehost.net] has left #scheme 18:44:59 can anyone suggest any improvements? as it is (grid 20 20) is going to take forever 18:45:14 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 18:45:28 You're building a square grid... of course it's going to take O(n^2) time... 18:45:37 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 18:45:48 20 x 20 should only be 400 operations though, why would it take so long? 18:46:22 i don't know, but 15 by 15 takes about 11 sec currently 18:47:12 and it doesn't do tail-call, i think that's why it's taking forever, it\s not 400 operations 18:47:57 What is it trying to accomplish, anyway? Looks like the same as adding up the range from 1 to n, n times. 18:48:13 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:22 its the number of paths (going down and right) on an n by n grid 18:48:52 e.g. there are 6 paths on a 2 by 2 grid 18:48:57 tail-call only works if you can get the full function's state before calling recursively. 18:49:36 i know 18:49:40 All the paths, from any starting point to any ending point? 18:50:19 no, starting from the top left 18:50:41 and ending in bot right 18:50:50 as in, dyck paths? 18:51:08 What I'd do is "pick a path" and then add that to the recursive call on the rest of the paths. That'd be tail-call... 18:51:22 almost dyck paths... not quite. 18:51:37 http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DyckPath.html 18:52:36 ah better yet, you are exactly looking at staircase walks: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/StaircaseWalk.html 18:52:48 dyck paths cannot go over the main diagonal... 18:53:03 ah yes 18:53:14 well, that is the solution, use factorials 18:53:23 j85wilson, how is the world of physics? 18:53:30 you should probably prove that formula. 18:53:35 Yay, factorials. Those can be tail-called like crazeh. 18:53:37 just for the sake of having done it. 18:53:56 kilimanjaro: pretty good. I'm learning quantum field theory this quarter, which is cool. 18:54:15 my group is having a DOE review on Monday, but luckily I don't have to attend because I have class. 18:54:15 do you have an idea of what you want to get really into for your dissertation? 18:54:25 what is your group doing? 18:54:34 yeah, I want to do some genetic programming to develop better jet finding algorithms. 18:54:39 i still think that my nice elegant solution would work with only a minor change ... 18:54:42 high energy experiment. 18:55:02 at CDF. 18:55:08 we're looking for Higgs, mostly. 18:55:18 queue x-files music 18:55:32 err 18:55:33 cue 18:55:39 I feel retarded sometimes 18:56:00 we could queue it too, as long as there's nothing else in the queue ahead of it, that would amount to the same thing. 18:57:06 weinberg gave a talk here the other day 18:57:15 I didn't go because I thought I wouldn't understand any of it 18:57:40 whoa. 18:57:52 he's up there;. 18:58:20 yea he is a professor at UT 18:58:21 often, the really super guys will give two talks when they visit, one for the physics dept and one for the university. 18:58:28 ah, not even visiting 18:58:44 oh yeah, I always think he's somewhere in CO... but I think that's Wieman 18:58:57 I get those two confused, even though their work is very very different. 18:59:05 i've never heard of wieman 18:59:40 ahh wikipedia explains all 18:59:57 BEC 19:00:00 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:26 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:11 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 19:01:17 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.192] has joined #scheme 19:01:47 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 19:01:57 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:02:27 HALtheComputer: I'm not sure your code is right in any case. 19:02:39 do you really want an OR? 19:04:13 luz [n=davids@201.19.19.185] has joined #scheme 19:09:49 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:14:41 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.192] has quit [] 19:14:50 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-22-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 19:15:26 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-36-224.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:15:29 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 19:16:49 -!- Kusanagi [n=Motoko@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has quit [] 19:17:01 Hmm, a new scheme steering committee eh? 19:19:06 j85wilson: Stop looking. Higgs is in Edinburgh ;-) 19:19:28 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:23:23 heh 19:24:52 HALtheComputer: yeah, your code is correct after all. But computing binomial coefficients (or Pascal's Triangle, or whatever) this way is evil. 19:26:08 what a value judgement :P 19:26:11 example, (grid 2 2) computes (grid 1 2) and (grid 2 1). But both of these compute (grid 1 1) separately, leading to a huge duplication of computation, especially as you go to larger arguments. 19:26:15 that's why it is evil. 19:26:35 well, i did say i knew it could be optimized :P 19:26:47 you could, of course, write a memoizing version.... 19:27:18 but that would sort of be overkill when you can just calculate the binomial coefficients directly. 19:27:56 i did a real binomial function, it finds the answer and is way faster 19:28:01 Kusanagi [n=Motoko@unaffiliated/kusanagi] has joined #scheme 19:28:06 thanks everyone for your help 19:28:27 It'd be nice if scheme compilers could figure out which functions can be memoized and automagically do so... 19:28:33 but that's probably a pipe dream. 19:29:50 It'd be even better if scheme compilers could find closed-form expressions for things like a naive Pascal's Triangle function, and automagically use those instead, but to do so in general would probably require having solved the Halting Problem. 19:30:32 I'd settle for a text editor that knew how to search termpapers4less.com. 19:31:05 haha 19:31:44 Maybe Clippy could return. "It looks like you're trying to write a binomial function!" 19:32:35 *HALtheComputer* awards a gold star to Daemmerung. 19:32:58 (in the voice of Gilbert Gottfried, natch) 19:33:01 Ooh, a *gold star* 19:33:13 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 19:33:16 *Daemmerung* pastes the gold star on his calendar and admires it 19:33:26 attila_lendvai [n=ati@89.132.61.222] has joined #scheme 19:36:24 *j85wilson* breaks into Daemmerung's house, steals his calendar, and runs away. 19:39:20 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:44 noooooo - they be stealin' mah bukkit -- 19:42:32 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 19:45:11 Argh, so much state... 19:45:22 i hate state 19:45:25 Me too. 19:45:47 The control flow of this code isn't really too bad of spaghetti, but the data flow is horrible. 19:45:51 well it depends what state :p 19:46:14 this bit of state gets set here, and referenced here, but are you sure something else hasn't set it in between? 19:46:21 sometime a hashtable here or there aint to bad 19:46:25 yeah 19:47:05 and a lot of the state gets set multiple times in succession, without ever being used (I think). 19:47:22 thats bad :| 19:47:37 but very functional :) 19:47:46 many bits of state are named the same thing, so it's not even perfectly clear that it isn't setting different bits of state instead. 19:48:10 optimized too early? 19:48:12 there's a class B which inherits from class A. Thing is, class A contains an instance of class B. 19:48:21 funky 19:48:24 leppie: just not ever actually designed... 19:48:42 sounds like my day job 19:49:31 and so, an instance of B sets some internal state, and then calls a method in class A, which uses and then modifies that bit of state (because it was inherited from A by B, so A can see it.) 19:50:13 we also have named constants for true and false.... 19:50:24 kTRUE and kFALSE. Just in case the values ever change, I guess? 19:50:46 Maybe some preprocessor evil? 19:52:49 the only reason I'm even looking at this code is to try and extract the format of the files it reads and writes, because that really isn't documented anywhere... 19:53:11 Poor j85wilson 19:54:06 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p2180-ipbf208kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:56:33 wouldnt c structs be better for that? 19:56:52 for kTRUE and kFALSE? that'd be awesome :-p 19:57:00 heh 19:57:18 ah i get you 19:57:30 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:35 struct {int val = 1;} kTRUE; struct {int value=0;} kFALSE; 19:57:58 frankly, anything would be better than this mess. 19:58:08 union { kTRUE; kFALSE } boolean; 19:58:10 annodomini [n=lambda@erlang.Kiewit.Dartmouth.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:58:11 it depends how uniform the data is 19:59:06 else you could try something like byte level lexer/parser 19:59:18 ATM, it looks like you have a file header, and then the body. The body consists of a random mixture of free blocks and data blocks, where each data block is preceded by a header describing it. 19:59:38 luckily, the file header has a pointer (an offset) to the first data header. 19:59:57 and I *think* that the first data block is a list of pointers to other data headers. 20:00:00 ouch, u really do mean undocumented :p 20:00:13 what file is it? 20:00:21 johnnowak [n=johnnowa@149.31.30.228] has joined #scheme 20:00:22 ROOT files. root.cern.ch. 20:00:35 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:37 almost (although not quite as bad as) a memory dump of C++ objects. 20:00:51 ok have no idea what that is 20:00:53 j85wilson: And none of the developers of the system still work there, right? 20:00:54 what is it for? 20:01:03 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 20:01:11 oh, plenty of developers. I'm very leery of approaching them for a number of reasons. 20:01:16 ah 20:01:18 They probably don't really remember any more 20:01:33 Drank it away :) 20:01:37 Physicists tend to be veeeeery sensitive about their code. 20:02:16 Physicists tend to be veeeeery wary of new ways of doing things that aren't themselves physics (like new computing tools). 20:02:40 Luckily, Scheme is very old :) 20:03:05 leppie: ROOT is a physics analysis system, mainly for high energy experiment. But, it does everything else, too, including the kitchen sink. 20:03:30 o kay :p 20:03:42 looks too complex 20:04:14 pretty much all data from any collider you care to think of is stored as ROOT files. 20:04:26 ok 20:04:30 at least, data generated in the last 15 years or so. 20:05:03 i would love to write software for that stuff, like analysizng space stuff 20:05:11 and I have to give them credit: ROOT is pretty fast and its files are pretty compact. 20:05:13 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:05:14 but i am too dumb 20:05:29 the actual code to do physics analysis is not all that complicated. 20:05:39 well maybe if i realised my passion 10 years earlier 20:05:52 never too late to go back to grad school :) 20:05:57 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:05:57 i cant just write code, i need to understand it 20:06:06 lol i already did that :p 20:06:09 herh 20:06:11 heh* 20:06:51 but they told me i had to finish my unfinished marketing degree fisrt 20:06:56 blech. 20:07:13 so i took 1st year engenering as well as that 20:07:24 a-s [i=root@93.112.66.178] has joined #scheme 20:07:29 but realised some stuff was not so easy anymore :p 20:08:20 anyways, i got the marketing degree, wee :) 20:08:26 cool. 20:08:56 i was very uncomfortable getting taught business by people that was younger than me 20:09:30 I've had a couple of students (as a TA) older than me. 20:10:17 i have seen some way old people trying, if they can, good for them, but else i feel sorry 20:10:37 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.113] has joined #scheme 20:10:43 im sure some felt that way about me, and i was only 28 around a bunch of 18 year olds 20:12:01 one thing that did nail me was electronics, brain just went blank on that 20:12:35 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.113] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:45 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:29 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 20:16:42 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 20:18:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:50 j85wilson: ftp://root.cern.ch/root/doc/19PythonRuby.pdf 20:21:57 *mejja* laughs cruelly 20:22:51 ah yes. 20:23:38 I've actually heard that the python and ruby interfaces to ROOT are horribly designed (partly because they are crippled by ROOT's insane class structure, and partly because ... who knows?), but I haven't tried to use them myself and verified this. 20:23:58 Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has joined #scheme 20:25:47 Haha! ftp://root.cern.ch/root/doc/7CINT.pdf 20:27:07 eh? 20:27:26 what about it? 20:27:41 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:27:52 hundreds of people use it every day, and it still sucks. 20:29:16 anyway, none of these help me understand the file format 20:29:43 http://root.cern.ch/root/html/TFile.html the top of this page would, except it is a) incomplete and b) partly wrong. 20:35:54 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:36:00 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 20:36:05 -!- bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-122-224.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:39:33 bsmntbombdood [n=gavin@97-118-128-184.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 20:45:40 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:55:58 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 20:56:07 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:01:26 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:01:53 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 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[n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 01:11:46 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-22-171.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-18.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:12:09 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:37 ziggurat [n=ziggurat@pool-71-96-213-144.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:00 -!- grkz [n=martink@c-40c070d5.010-54-6f72652.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #scheme 01:15:26 nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 01:19:51 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #scheme 01:26:52 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.202.199] has joined #scheme 01:26:55 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:35:32 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:09 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 01:37:27 Anyone know a keyword arguments library for Scheme? 01:37:50 -!- nowhereman [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:38:41 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:35 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 01:41:33 wasn't there a srfi for that? 01:41:46 aspect, do you happen to know which one? 01:45:24 Ah, it looks like it's SRFI 89 and 51. 01:46:14 careful, 89 is the r6rs one I gather 01:50:42 aspect, hrm, it doesn't seem to be very R6RS specific. 01:50:50 sodio [n=sodio@pool-96-255-145-123.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 01:51:15 -!- sodio [n=sodio@pool-96-255-145-123.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:11 hm it's in FINAL status -- suggests it's not r6rs-related 01:52:16 they were all withdrawn iirc 01:52:46 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has joined #scheme 01:52:50 i decided i like scheme 01:52:53 who wants to be my mentor 01:53:32 ushdf, first you have to decide whether #scheme likes you. ;-) 01:53:39 ushdf, neh, what's your question? 01:54:32 (Disclaimer: no assistance received in this group should be considered as a binding or constraining agreement between you and the poster of aforementioned assistance.) 01:54:44 (I.E. -- Mentor?) 01:55:10 *arcfide* is in a weird mood today. 01:55:19 Or wait, am i always like this? 02:00:03 elf, hey there. 02:09:38 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:06 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 02:16:56 Archville [n=Archvill@59.Red-83-50-142.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 02:17:11 Hi 02:17:14 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 02:18:24 archville, hello. 02:23:39 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:24:32 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 02:26:33 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:38:05 aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has joined #scheme 02:42:25 -!- Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:42:41 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:43:18 arcfide hi :) 02:44:29 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:47:53 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 02:48:14 Wow, drscheme totally crashed my computer. 02:48:40 was having kernel panics everywhere, had to completely restart. 02:49:31 You gots yourself one broken computer. 02:50:28 This is why allocating 300 megabytes to edit a text file is a bad idea. 02:51:10 But yeah, I really should use rlimit more. And stop forgetting to enable swap. ._. 02:53:35 Man. drscheme _starts_ as the highest memory usage program on my computer, and goes up from there. Not even i2p tops it! 02:54:48 What the heck are you using? Some homebrew Linux with a broken X kernel? 02:56:17 Nope, just Debian. Nothing special really, though I do have enough apps typically to have a gigabyte of memory usage. 02:56:31 synx: if the only thing you need is edit a text file, then drscheme is not a good choice. 02:56:36 3 drschemes used up the other gigabyte, and without swap enabled, the kernel just starts killing things. <3 02:56:48 aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:56:54 Why would you run 3 drschemes? 02:56:55 eli: I like the syntax highlighting... :/ 02:57:13 Because I was editing three files ^.^ 02:57:21 (My point being that drscheme does much more with those 300mb) 02:57:27 I was going to suggest Windows, which doesn't require 300M for text editing, and doesn't kernel panic without quite a bit of provocation. 02:57:33 So you start a drscheme process for each file? 02:58:09 Oh I haven't had a good kernel panic since my hard disk died two months ago. 02:58:11 synx, I recommend you learn and use emacs 02:58:15 Daemmerung: the kernel panic sounds like a result of turning off swap (bad idea), and running lotsofstuff 02:58:17 eli: Not anymore I won't! 02:58:38 I didn't turn off swap. Just kind of forgot to put it into fstab, so it didn't start up... 02:58:40 synx: There is absolutely no need to start a new drscheme process for each file. 02:58:55 I've had my itty bitty BSD box loaded to the guts, and it didn't panic. much. 02:58:57 cpu200hz [n=user@24.174.121.77] has joined #scheme 02:59:54 synx: Also, you can look in the tools thing and disable all kinds of tools that you don't need. I've heard that this can buy you a lot too. 03:00:13 Yeah BSD is great... if I had moneys I would separate all my server apps onto a BSD server or the like. 03:00:28 eli: Thanks. 03:01:24 Yeah, wht eli said. I got much improved startup and image when I purged DrScheme of ProfessorJ etc. 03:02:35 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180065183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:04:48 hmm, only loading "check syntax" and "text box" tools takes it from 149M initially to 108M. Still huger than mozilla. 03:05:41 synx, have you ever tried emacs? 03:06:22 Yes I used emacs for a while. I find it hard to type though. :/ 03:06:49 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:07:11 After wading through the abominable elisp for hours at a time, I just gave up and went with vim. 03:08:42 Really lisp-like languages are the worst for me to grasp, but I don't see any alternatives at this point... 03:08:56 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 03:09:01 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:09:53 If there was a Forth as elegant as Scheme, I think I might be on that channel. <3 03:11:49 Yep, and if wishes were horses, we'd all be eating steak. 03:12:21 May i spam the channel with the first version of my interpreter ? 03:12:44 Archville: if you lisppaste it, you won't be spamming. 03:13:08 lisppaste what ? the homepage ? :) 03:13:18 lisppaste, url? 03:13:18 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/scheme and enter your paste. 03:13:37 My mistake. I assumed you were going to flood us. 03:13:40 I just use straight Vi to edit my scheme code. Works for me, though I wouldn't recommend it for others. 03:13:45 kilimanjaro: If wishes were horses, we'd be up to our ears in horse shit! 03:13:54 :P 03:14:05 arcfide: does vi even do syntax highlighting? 03:14:10 synx, nope. :-) 03:14:12 Anyway, if anyone is interested... http://sharpscheme.berlios.de/ 03:14:34 I would be dead if not for syntax highlighting. So many nested contexts... 03:14:50 *synx* is never interested in C# 03:15:11 synx, don't mind me, though, I'm a little kooky. 03:15:21 synx, everyone here can attest to my strange habits. 03:15:25 vi is a fine editor. 03:15:34 arcfide: a fine line between genius...and insanity. 03:16:17 *Archville* likes vi to edit scheme code 03:16:41 When .emacs files are damaged... when emacs doens't load... when I'm bringing up a new system... vi's always there. 03:16:56 Ha, if only. 03:17:08 Sometimes. 03:17:09 :-) 03:17:19 Default on most Debian systems is to have nano is the last resort. 03:17:20 I find a good working knowledge of ed sometimes comes in handy for those bad situations. 03:17:22 That assuming that your termcap isn't maimed, of course. 03:17:23 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180069006.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:28 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 03:17:45 I've run into issues like that, and ed has always been quite the savior. 03:20:05 ed is for people who can't mimic xkcd cartoons 03:20:38 Mimic them how? Editing via dd? 03:20:50 Daemmerung, wasn't it with butterflies? 03:20:53 Daemmerung: butterflies 03:20:54 yes 03:21:01 and chaos theory 03:21:06 and cosmic rays 03:21:08 I think 03:21:16 to edit inodes 03:21:22 Adamant, of course, there's an Emacs command for that . . . 03:21:45 That's a classic XKCD. 03:22:16 It's memoriffic 03:22:35 xkcd is proof bitches don't know 'bout my raptors 03:23:24 i've never used ed 03:23:47 that's good, but you still have 20 seconds to comply 03:24:13 i don't read xkcd because i don't find it interesting 03:24:20 you may not be interested in ed-209, but ed-209 is interested in you 03:24:51 I don't read xkcd because it's syrupy and arrogant. Still I hear about clever strips here and there. 03:25:59 synx: pretty good synopsis. 03:26:00 I don't read xkcd because it's popular and my hip 30-something math professor likes it 03:26:00 also, too many raptors 03:26:00 you can never have too many raptors 03:26:00 -!- luz [n=davids@201.19.19.185] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:26:21 .oO( syrupy? ) 03:26:40 Viscous. Ropy. Cloying. 03:26:54 saccharine 03:27:21 too much Heinlein, not enough "No Exit" 03:28:02 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:28:15 Too much Fred Astaire, not enough painful dental surgery 03:28:36 but Ginger Allen is part of the package 03:29:29 I guess he just doesn't have what it takes to roto-root the human soul.. err, electrochemical impulse soup 03:30:12 I'll give you an electrochemical impulse mister. 03:30:36 I'll let you know that Jesus built my hotrod. 03:36:51 Flawless Victory 03:37:53 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:48:20 sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.164.182.243] has joined #scheme 03:48:42 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-6-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:54:59 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 04:03:25 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-34-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:22 After some time, the drscheme process is still taking ~113 megabytes, seems stable. 04:05:36 -!- sreeram [n=sreeram@122.164.224.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:09 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176192126.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:42 synx: just don't reverse the polarities 04:11:16 the dilithium crystals, captain! 04:11:18 crossing the streams is also discouraged. 04:11:37 Oh hey that reminds me... 04:12:12 http://www.lhccountdown.org/live/ 04:12:19 It's a live webcam of the LHC ^_^ 04:12:26 yeah, it already ended the world 04:12:31 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-10-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 04:12:34 we're now in a pocket universe 04:12:46 also I lurk in ##physics 04:13:11 thank you though. :) 04:13:28 I don't lurk there... for the benefit of all. 04:13:56 synx: getting too many idea for your next planet-killing railgun? 04:13:59 *ideas 04:14:23 *synx* evilcackle 04:15:00 more like I drag every discussion into a rather jaded view of thermodynamics. 04:15:22 YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF THE GAME! GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!!!!!! 04:15:28 haha .. sigfpe approaches Y in python http://sigfpe.blogspot.com/2008/09/on-writing-python-one-liners.html 04:17:52 -!- HALtheComputer [n=root@unaffiliated/halthecomputer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:04 Wow, creative. 04:18:24 HALtheComputer [n=root@unaffiliated/halthecomputer] has joined #scheme 04:18:24 -!- HALtheComputer [n=root@unaffiliated/halthecomputer] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:47 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-6-98.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:19:09 I wonder if "IBMtheDestroyerOfCompanies" is a valid nick. 04:25:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:26:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:26:51 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176202177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:21 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 04:29:49 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs is a fascinating read 04:30:00 It was better than Cats. 04:30:15 -!- sreeram_ [n=sreeram@122.164.182.243] has quit [] 04:38:42 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:43:19 It's a fascinating read but it becomes tiring 04:43:23 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 04:43:28 that's not the best way to say it. 04:43:37 It's fascinating but intellectually taxing. 04:46:36 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 04:48:13 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:50:42 I liked the chapter on streams... 04:51:15 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-4-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 04:52:59 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 04:58:48 I'm almost done with chapter 2... don't get me wrong, I like math, but it's abundance of examples becomes tiring... but I suppose analyzing the structure of and what programs mean without math is impossible 04:59:03 the painting package was interesting.. 05:00:04 I think the examples themselves are the lesson, sort of attempting to teach without resorting to using the English language. 05:01:35 I can agree with that... often, I'm not 100% sure what they're talking about until I see it in action in an example, and then things click and just simply get interesting 05:01:53 vorpal_ [n=rhunter@ip24-255-31-98.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #scheme 05:02:35 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:02:49 Hrm, is there a standard STRING-SPLIT procedure of some kind? 05:04:11 I see that there is STRING-TOKENIZE in SRFI-13, but that doesn't split it strictly into empty strings along a character boundary, but rather, does a little simplification. 05:05:40 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 05:06:03 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-10-159.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:07 CaptainMorgan, the meat of the book is chapters 3-5 imo 05:10:13 AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #scheme 05:10:22 kilimanjaro, thanks... I'm getting there. :) 05:13:07 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 05:13:37 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:16 I'm going to have fun with this 05:15:24 I don't know jack about coding, so it's interesting even if I don't understand half of it 05:15:39 Most of the book seems like a puzzle, have to search for the right pieces to see the examples clearly 05:16:12 are you just starting Logite ? it's interesting to say the least... my brain literally gets excited from reading it 05:17:48 SInce yesterday I didn't even know what an expression or operand was 05:17:54 So yeah, I'm pretty new 05:23:04 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:28:17 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:19 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless297.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:28 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 05:33:56 I thought I had an understanding of bottom-up design before reading this book... wow was I wrong, I just find it fascinating how they expose procedures and *assume* a sub-procedure's functionality... later to develop that sub-procedure to fit in perfectly 05:34:58 -!- cpu200hz [n=user@24.174.121.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:21 I suppose it's a good book for a beginner then :) 05:45:59 pantsd [n=hkarau@bas6-kitchener06-1177625243.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 05:55:40 *arcfide* chuckles evilly. 05:57:21 -!- ziggurat [n=ziggurat@pool-71-96-213-144.dfw.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:03:01 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-18-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 06:03:53 Isn't that top down? ._. 06:08:10 Mmmm, is there any standard on random numbers in Scheme ? 06:08:42 I would like to implement "choose" wich should return a random item from a list 06:09:05 Archville, most use something like RANDOM which takes a nonnegative integer (somtimes a real) and gives back a random value in the range [0, int). 06:09:06 -!- vorpal_ is now known as vorpal 06:09:29 Good enough 06:09:30 :) 06:10:05 Archville, but make sure that you double check the implementation's design decisions on random to make sure they aren't introducing weaknesses. 06:10:19 Some implementations do not have a really strong random number generator. 06:10:24 -!- kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has quit [] 06:10:34 I'll use the C# number generator anyway 06:10:34 It is official, I am a silly person. 06:10:58 but i want to relay on standard implementations design when there is one 06:14:51 i think i'll just provide (random from to) 06:20:50 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-4-162.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:48 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:09 I don't get this 06:29:45 If C# Random.Next only gets a positive argument 06:29:54 why they expect a Int instead of a UInt ? 06:30:01 *Archville* rants about C# 06:34:15 *synx* has no sympathy for C# :3 06:34:22 GOOD 06:34:25 good 06:34:34 it's an attempted infiltration by corporate interests 06:35:05 that, and it's an attempt to copy java. A bad one at that. 06:35:11 I mostly like it but it haves some quirks 06:35:26 (and i prefer it to java) 06:35:39 C# is the only language I'll outright badmouth, sorry. x3 06:35:58 BASIC? 06:36:07 Just as an honest attempt to counteract some of the mountains of good press being generated for it. 06:36:26 :) 06:36:28 reporters tend to rehash press releases 06:36:34 Nah, QuickBasic had some advantages. I have fond memories of programming one of those old little screen Macintoshes in BASIC. 06:36:51 mine aren't so fond 06:36:52 QBasic was fun those days 06:36:59 i remember something about circles 06:37:01 hundreds of circles 06:37:18 like those giant floating white orbs in that tv show 06:37:22 that would just engulf people 06:37:24 I made a program to record my library books checked out, to remember to return them. <3 First big program I'd made. 06:37:26 the horror 06:37:52 ushdf: Not that show with the one eyed bird swarm carrying a temple? 06:37:54 I made a text editor, another crappy one 06:38:03 there are tons of that :) 06:38:06 Rover from The Prisoner? 06:38:08 you mean like on the dollar bill? 06:38:11 yeah, jarv 06:38:29 And one of those text adventures without even a proper parser 06:38:31 I don't remember what the temple looked like... it was big stone and round though. 06:38:43 i don't think i ever actually saw the show 06:39:03 from what i can tell about scheme, it's like lisp, but it sucks less 06:39:07 The birds had to fly their temple away because the robots sent by the giant brain from the future were winning. 06:39:07 is that an accurate description of it 06:39:15 Man that was an awesome movie. <3 06:39:15 scheme is lisp 06:39:23 are you comparing it to common lisp? 06:39:26 yeah 06:39:35 pardon 06:39:39 then i get the same impression, but i am the n00b 06:40:13 don't feel bad 06:40:15 i like both, but i prefer the minimalist approach of scheme 06:40:20 how many millions of years did it take us to figure out algebra ;) 06:40:37 billions even 06:40:43 I don't like how clisp has namespaces and magic junk like that. Don't want to have three things all called "foo" 06:40:59 i was just blown away by lisp in general, it is friendly like other languages are not 06:41:15 ushdf, the world is only 6k years old 06:41:21 shush 06:41:36 -!- j4cbo [i=jacob@PARTYVAN.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:41:41 j4cbo [i=jacob@PARTYVAN.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:42:28 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:42:31 lisps are very careful in their definition, I've noticed. Everything has to be down pat, without any assumptions or unclear shortcuts. You could call that friendly. 06:43:11 It's the second easiest type of language to write an interpreter for. 06:43:11 assumption make an ass out of you and mption 06:43:13 i heard javascript was originally supposed to be based on r6rs 06:43:33 *ushdf* coughs up a gallon of blood 06:43:34 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:42 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 06:43:55 next to what, synx, an assembly interpreter? ;) 06:43:58 -!- aiur [n=Jan@125.120.43.218] has quit [Client Quit] 06:44:14 i want one of those 06:45:03 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 06:45:03 ushdf: Forth uses a simpler interpreter. assembly is horribly hard to parse! Especially that stupid "this is an address of this number" @ junk. 06:45:55 As for the machine code itself, depends on the architecture really how simple it is... even MIPS is a pretty complex little pipeline. 06:46:01 i always thought mysql_fetch_array was the stupidest php function 06:46:13 "take this data you already have and move it somewhere else" 06:46:43 php is a mess 06:47:00 heh, yeah... 06:47:17 php is almost a language I would bad mouth. If people hadn't written so dang much in it... 06:47:21 i meant the actual bytecode 06:47:30 an interpreter of that ;) 06:47:48 aka a pipe 06:48:13 Well good luck, there are at least 100 types of opcode in x86. Get your tinker toys ready. 06:48:31 that's a lot 06:48:50 i don't think i understand why RISC failed where 06:48:52 such excess wins 06:49:06 Well RISC didn't fail actually... 06:49:15 It just got snuck in the back door. 06:49:18 in the consumer market 06:49:53 x86 uses a reduced instruction set, but has an extra chip slapped on to emulate the other couple hundred instructions. Nobody uses those instructions though, so everything's happy. 06:50:14 that is smart 06:50:19 i think 06:51:12 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@58.49.244.11] has joined #scheme 06:51:18 I dunno. Sticking to x86 in the first place is just industry pressure, pure stupid inertia, rich people not wanting to take risks. 06:51:28 Getting it to work as a RISC though, that is pretty clever. 06:51:52 hmph 06:51:56 free market vs. ????? 06:52:02 somebody 06:52:17 COMMUNISM 06:52:18 apple shouldn't have stamped out the clones 06:52:25 *synx* shakes metal sheets 06:52:26 i think the free market emulates communism 06:52:38 or it will 06:53:06 if the dissemination of technology advances to the point where we can achieve complete self-sufficiency 06:53:26 You don't want me to start talking about economics. Maybe if we ever meet on #politics 06:53:49 i bet we have 06:54:11 Hard to keep track of everyone who barrels through there. 07:05:00 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 07:07:05 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:32 This may sound stupid 07:11:53 but i can't come with an efficient algorithm to choose a random element from a list 07:12:06 i mean i need the list length to generate the random number 07:12:19 if i get it's length i have to traverse it one time 07:12:26 not necessarily. 07:12:29 and another time to get that particular item 07:12:43 if i copy it to another data structure (say an array) 07:12:54 while traversing it the first time, i need to double the memory needed 07:13:08 elf ¿ any better solution ? 07:13:45 (define (list-random-elem l) (set! l (list->vector l)) (vector-ref l (random (vector-length l)))) 07:14:18 still have to allocate memory for the new vector 07:14:33 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:37 it's faster but uses more memory 07:14:48 just calling the function allocates a new list. 07:15:11 memory efficiency shouldnt really be a concern of yours :) 07:15:40 it is when you are implementing the interpreter itself :P 07:15:49 you have a heap. 07:16:08 odds are the allocation is free, cause youre just allocating on the already-allocated heap, rather than a new malloc. 07:16:31 mmmm you have a point there 07:17:01 Archville: what you want is doable, but elf does have a point. 07:17:22 mornin eli :) 07:17:29 thanks :) 07:17:31 *eli* agrees 07:17:49 And even if you think about that suggestion, then list-ref with random over the list length is probably faster. 07:18:11 Two traversals are likely to be faster than one traversal and a copy. 07:18:28 depends on the list representation, but yes. 07:18:32 it's a lot faster here 07:18:45 But if you want the single-pass thing then it's described somewhere. I don't remember where. 07:19:12 It goes roughly like this: you hold the random element, which is initialized to the head of the list. 07:19:34 For the next item, the chances that it is the actual random number that you wanted is 1/2. 07:19:52 So if (zero? (random 2)) you use it instead. 07:20:02 Great 07:20:10 For the third you use (zero? (random 3)), etc. 07:20:17 The result should be uniform. 07:20:26 thats pretty weighted toward the top though, meh? 07:20:31 No. 07:20:39 i dont think that would result in a uniform distribution. 07:20:44 It will. 07:20:53 It seems to me it should 07:21:03 i'll try to implement it that way and check results 07:21:06 :) 07:21:48 It can be generalized to getting N random items too. I have a script for that, if you're really interested. 07:21:59 what happens if you get to the end and there have been no zeros? 07:22:10 ah, then its the first item. 07:22:16 yes. 07:22:40 it's a very interesting approach 07:22:44 :) 07:23:04 And the chance of that happenning, for a list of three items is 1/2*2/3 = 1/3 07:23:19 The rest is homework. 07:23:33 Thank you a lot 07:23:58 wait 07:24:03 are you saying the loop looks like : 07:24:21 (define (list-random-elem l) (let loop ((i (car l)) (c 2) (l (cdr l))) (if (null? l) i (if (zero? (random c)) (car l) (loop i (+ 1 c) (cdr l)))))) 07:24:24 or like : 07:24:50 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-108-121-142.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 07:24:57 (define (list-random-elem l) (let loop ((i (car l)) (c 2) (l (cdr l))) (if (null? l) i (if (zero? (random c)) (loop (car l) (+ 1 c) (cdr l)) (loop i (+ 1 c) (cdr l)))))) 07:25:31 You can generalize the special case of the first item away. 07:25:50 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.161.57] has joined #scheme 07:25:53 Just use #f, and the chances of choosing the first item become (zero? (random 1)) 07:25:58 jmo- [n=jmo-@83.233.163.34] has joined #scheme 07:26:13 extra random 07:26:18 random is often more expensive though :) 07:26:41 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.161.57] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:43 (random 1) should be optimized like (+) is. 07:27:45 the first does not yield anything remotely approaching a random distribution 07:28:07 the second is pretty good though 07:28:12 er, a uniform distribution 07:28:43 -!- jmo- [n=jmo-@83.233.163.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:16 what's a good interpreter to use with the "structure and interpretation of computer programs" to use? 07:29:25 mit scheme 07:29:28 thanks 07:29:33 np 07:29:43 Logite, you can also use any other decent one, but MIT Scheme is pretty well suited. 07:29:48 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:16 well i'm not planning on staying with it 07:30:21 i'm actually hoping to eventually code in C 07:30:25 ? 07:30:32 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 07:30:33 clarify. 07:30:41 clarify what? 07:30:54 what do you mean by 'im actually hoping to eventually code in C' 07:30:57 maybe i misunderstand how coding works 07:31:08 ah, youre a new coder? 07:31:15 well, i'm new to coding 07:31:20 i wouldn't consider myself a coder just yet 07:31:21 ah. 07:31:28 haven't figured out if it's something i'd enjoy :) 07:31:37 scheme is generally more enjoyable than C :) 07:31:46 i'm enjoying the flexibility of ubuntu a lot more than windows xp 07:31:57 It's no problem if you want to learn some C. Important thing is to learn the algorithm. 07:32:00 although i like both, and write both in approximately equal quantities atm. 07:32:02 i'm dealing with more problems than i am with windows xp but the nature is different 07:32:07 *elf* laughs. 07:32:13 windows is a bitch (TM) 07:32:19 window$ 07:32:21 *elf* is still fighting with it. 07:32:37 arcfide: I can't find it, but there's this: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2347738 07:32:44 My favorite Windows story involved BASIC... 07:32:45 i'm one of the people who falls into the "never had a problem with windows i couldn't figure out" category 07:32:49 Archville: I can't find it, but there's this: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2347738 07:33:01 [arcfide: sorry, bad completion] 07:33:25 logite: thats cause youve never coded for windows :) 07:33:41 when i say windows is a bitch, im referring to coding a cross-platform compatibility library :) 07:33:59 I had just gotten access to a brand new Windows computer like 3 times faster than that old Macintosh. Was preparing to port my old program to record what library books I had checked out, into the new Microsoft Visual Basic. 07:34:47 First thing I noticed, no toolkit. Just some weird graphicky WYSIWYG thing where you have to drag everything into the "right" place. 07:35:25 And then I noticed that I could not find the function to add records into the "database control". 07:35:56 if you're complaining about finding things in windows, try switching to ubuntu with no knowledge about linux ;) 07:36:05 these last 2 days have been hard on me 07:36:08 After several days of trying to figure what I was doing wrong, I found in the manual the statement that "The Standard Edition cannot write database records during runtime, only the Professional Edition can" 07:36:30 lol i hit that one too :p 07:36:34 That was the beginning of my descent into Linux, like, gods 10 years ago. 07:36:47 logite: im not talking about finding anything. im talking about the winapi 07:36:57 that was @ synx 07:37:07 I only spent like a year on Windows, but that was enough to put me off it for good. 07:37:18 i've used windows since i was about 6 years old 07:37:33 i don't think i'll go back once i get everything moved onto my ubuntu partition 07:38:15 It wasn't just that of course. I could tell you my story about the amazing Lexmark forced upgrader aka printer, or any number of things. 07:38:41 Or no sorry, the Lexmark printer was just forward incompatible. The Visioneer scanner was what forced the upgrade. 07:38:50 *leppie* gets worried, i have a lexmark printer too 07:38:59 Both well intentioned gifts I might add. 07:39:23 i think why i'm switching is my subconscious is telling me new products aren't going to stay xp compatible forever 07:39:52 vista is such a trainwreck :) 07:40:05 The fact that not all printers communicate via the Postscript protocol is quite an amazing marketing feat. 07:40:57 "We could have your printer work seamlessly with your builtin drivers, but... hey look at that shiny thing! Now you see why we have to lock down your computer to use our--I mean--your printer. Yellow dots? What yellow dots?" 07:41:14 See Windows does not have any of these issues ;p 07:41:21 Get this: Windows 2000 on up don't even come with builtin postscript drivers anymore. 07:41:38 They have to be installed at the sufferance of the Adobe cabal. <3 07:41:38 -!- Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:41:40 vista is actually easier to code for, compat wise, than xp 07:42:40 Wouldn't know really. I just use the hardware, not code drivers. 07:42:58 -!- nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 07:44:16 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:44:50 I tried installing MIT/GNU Scheme but it isn't starting up. Do I need anything else prior to running it? 07:45:03 Also, how would I go about solving these type of problems on my own? 07:45:30 asking here is a good way. Also consult the program's documentation, wherever it is hmm.. 07:48:08 mit-scheme-doc is nonfree :/ might be harder to install, but shouldn't be too hard if you can find a nonfree mirror. 07:48:16 I tried running it in terminal and it gave me "Largest address does not fit in datum field of object." 07:48:37 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #scheme 07:48:40 "Allocate less space or re-configure without HEAP_IN_LOW_MEMORY." 07:49:05 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 07:49:48 It's actually MIT/GNU Scheme I installed 07:49:54 Just from running the interpreter? o.O 07:50:10 http://www.gnu.org/software/mit-scheme/ 07:50:20 What's the error mean? 07:51:08 Ah I got it. Thank you Google. 07:51:10 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4868292 07:51:52 It's a kernel security thing, that MIT Scheme requires be disabled due to un-sound assumptions on the developer's part I'm sure. n.n 07:52:56 At the bottom it has a sysctl that will do that kernel disabling, I think... I don't have that kernel myself. 07:53:26 This is why more people don't switch to linux :) 07:53:47 Funny enough... traversing the list two times is faster than calling random 07:54:02 So I suppose these sorts of problems are more developer problems and not linux problems 07:54:12 No, most people don't switch because of the FUD. The technical details they usually don't reach. 07:54:19 FUD? 07:54:42 fear uncertainty doubt 07:54:54 Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Linux is unstable. It's error prone. It's a lot of work. It's not convenient. It isn't friendly. Not like Microsoft. etc 07:55:02 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:09 nobody ever got fired for buying ibm 07:55:11 etc 07:55:24 archville: told you random itself was slow :) 07:55:44 nevertheless the algorithm is beautiful 07:55:45 :) 07:55:51 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 07:56:10 its actually significantly more ops than the twice-traversal, or the copy 07:56:27 one traversal with one random per element = 2 ops, one expensive, per element 07:57:00 one traversal with increment, then one random, then one partial traversal with a compare for ref 07:57:09 (the two traversal mech) 07:57:14 the faster solution is vector-copy here 07:57:15 is much cheaper :) 07:57:24 you mean list->vector ? 07:57:28 yep 07:57:33 yeah, thought so. 07:57:40 the most efficient twice-traversal 07:57:44 Linux is unstable? Eh 07:57:48 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.72.184] has joined #scheme 07:57:49 its actually only once traversal. 07:57:55 once traversal for copy. 07:58:02 the ref is constant time, as is the length 07:58:12 vectors can be likened to C arrays 07:58:34 vectors are Object[] (C#) but is much the same 07:58:54 whatever you want to call it, its an array. :) 07:59:01 right 07:59:33 Is Linux really unstable? How so? 07:59:34 so array length is stored as part of the array (since it cant be resized), which is therefore a constant-time op, and array ref is a constant time op 07:59:43 logite: all OSes are unstable. 07:59:47 such is the way of the world. 08:00:02 it's just a matter of choosing one that sucks less for you 08:00:22 i find linux to be the best of bad options, which means that i dislike it slightly less than most others. 08:00:28 where "you" is really random 08:00:30 :) 08:00:32 thats just my heavily biased viewpoint. 08:01:03 even at linux, you have a lot of distributions 08:01:20 to choose at the one that sucks less for you 08:01:46 (for me that's slackware or archlinux) 08:01:56 At this point I'm just going to learn the basics of linux in general before I go off deciding things 08:02:18 afk for walks 08:02:29 bye elf :) 08:02:38 I'm trying to edit a configuration file in my etc folder 08:02:41 basics are good to learn. 08:02:43 It says I don't have permission to save it 08:03:07 It also says that when I try to unmount imgs or .iso s 08:03:25 Goes along the lines of not being the fstab 08:03:49 You need to do that stuff as root. It normally prevents you, so a remote user couldn't do that stuff. 08:04:17 Clarify 08:04:23 Mainly on what root is and how I'd do things as "root" 08:04:29 mount a corrupt file designed to crash your kernel and give them root access to all your files, whoops! so only root can mount without restriction. 08:04:56 root is the user that can do everything. Everyone else can do most things needed to function, but not things that can damage the computer. 08:05:02 Kernel....I assume that isn't popcorn we're talking 08:05:06 And ask on #linux not here :p 08:05:54 tip: sudo makes u root for the command 08:06:06 Your computer is made of hardware. The kernel is the program that uses the hardware. Nothing else does. Everything else talks to the kernel, which then talks to the hardware, and back. 08:06:13 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-8-49.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 08:06:45 Ha! I knew we weren't talking popcorn 08:06:47 Just like in Microsoft Windows, Apply, and every operating system. 08:07:06 More like a kernel as in a seed. :3 08:07:26 *Apple... gods it's late. 08:07:53 Quit making excuses ;) 08:12:04 So, some modern security needs to be removed from your kernel program, using sysctl, because MIT Scheme makes incorrect assumptions about the memory it accesses. Not the most ideal situation, but... hardly the gravest concern, security-wise. 08:12:36 Interesting 08:13:02 Mmmm.... Appley... 08:13:06 *foof* bakes an apple pie 08:13:11 synx, Well, MIT Scheme has improved on that in some sense, lately. 08:13:27 If there's one thing that's the bane of me though 08:13:27 synx, I remember that it couldn't deal with the random addressing in OpenBSD for a while, until it was fixed. 08:13:33 It's not knowing how to turn of mouse acceleration :( 08:13:35 arcfide: Apparantly not the one compiled for the latest Ubuntu 08:13:50 Oh okay. I don't really keep up with those things. 08:13:50 synx, do you happen to know what the version of that is? 08:14:08 Logite: Is there a foot in the corner of your screen? :| 08:14:32 A foot? 08:14:36 arcfide: I don't sorry. I use Debian, and mit-scheme is entirely absent from that oddly. 08:14:49 Logite: Yes, grey with five toes. The Gnome foot. :3 08:15:10 synx, Debian packages are right on the homepage. 08:15:19 Hehee. 08:15:22 Yeah, there's a foot in my file browser window 08:15:24 *arcfide* lives in CWM! 08:15:31 arcfide: Yes, but not in apt-cache search oddly. 08:15:34 Lot's of little xterms all running around. 08:15:43 Logite: What determines mouse acceleration is your window manager. As with most things Linux, there is more than one window manager. 08:15:44 synx, for some reason it wasn't incorporated in. 08:16:00 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 08:16:05 Logite: Gnome is the default one for Ubuntu though. I just wanted to confirm. 08:16:06 synx, I am pretty sure that Window managers don't control acceleration. 08:17:00 arcfide: ? really? I thought they'd at least adjust it. 08:17:11 I can adjust the acceleration 08:17:16 I want it off though 08:17:53 Hmm... 08:17:57 Logite, I think that's generally a function of the X Windows configuration that you have, and usually Window Managers do not touch that too much, though the system configuration may do that. 08:18:06 synx, ^^ 08:18:08 Logite, sorry. 08:18:12 I'm using xfce so at a disadvantage to help. Best asking in #gnome or maybe on irc.gimp.org 08:22:22 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054602.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 08:24:00 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-18-22.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:38 Logite, did you check man xset. 08:24:47 ? 08:26:05 xset doesnt do mouse accel 08:26:13 oops, im wrong 08:26:14 it does 08:26:16 xset m 08:31:18 Logite, you can nullify acceleration by reducing thr scaling factor to 1. 08:32:44 I'm so lost right now :) 08:33:27 So how can I check my xset 08:34:16 It's a program. You run it on the terminal. 'man xset' for details. That might be the solution... I'm just worried Gnome will then try to override it. 08:34:37 Some guy in #linux linked me to this 08:34:38 http://www.linuxspace.info/unix-solaris/5397-how-turn-off-mouse-acceleration-gnome.html 08:34:39 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4dropc 08:34:41 I didn't understand the last post though 08:35:12 http://tinyurl.com/4dropc < I clicked that 08:35:15 It was a virus wasn't it 08:35:28 I linux virus! Oh no! 08:35:30 A* 08:37:02 The last post was a program called "gconftool-2". You run it on the terminal. It edits your configuration files I gather, so that gnome will act differently. He's saying you have to move the mouse more than 500 pixels in one movement before acceleration will start, so thereby disabling acceleration. 08:37:38 Alright, I don't understand which commands to put in though 08:37:44 I feel so needy :O 08:38:07 Then gnome will call xset, or whatever it does. 08:38:54 The first command will show you what configuration you have already (always a good thing to know). 08:39:03 Yeah, that one worked for me 08:39:09 What command should I put in next 08:39:38 The second command at the second % is sort of a template for how to set a variable, the exact one you want in fact. The third % is an example of how to set it. 08:40:13 Oh no wait, the second just checks the type of that variable. The third sets it though. 08:40:38 where would I input the value i want? 08:40:39 So type "gconftool-2 --set --type int /desktop/gnome/peripherals/mouse/motion_threshold" a carriage return, then 500, another carriage return, then Ctrl-D. 08:40:50 On standard input, they seem to indicate. 08:40:51 carriage return? 08:40:57 aka after you hit enter 08:41:22 sorry, carriage return is typewriter-ese :) 08:41:40 i typed in "gconftool-2 --set --type int /desktop/gnome/peripherals/mouse/motion_threshold" 08:41:42 pressed enter 08:41:47 and it told me there was no value to set 08:42:09 oh 08:42:13 i put the value at the end of it all 08:42:21 ala penicillin :) 08:42:30 Ohh okay. So not on standard input then, but as the last argument. 08:42:41 Just that stupid phpbb wrapped the line where it shouldn't. 08:42:51 -!- Axioplase_ [n=Pied@trex.iro.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:05 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 08:43:25 anyway nite 08:43:41 thanks for the help, cya 08:51:58 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:13:30 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 09:14:59 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Client Quit] 09:16:14 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-0-121.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 09:22:05 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:22:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:50 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 09:23:09 -!- wasabi_ 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[n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 10:17:08 arcus [n=AJT@118-92-149-202.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #scheme 10:26:01 i find myself perpetually looking up the order of arguments for fold's kons; does anyone have a mnemonic for remembering (x0, x1, ..., xn, folded)? 10:27:00 (folded, x0, x1, ..., xn) always seems more intuitive, for some reason 10:28:13 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.204.80.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 10:28:21 elf: there? 10:28:30 when you 'fold' in poker, that's the last thing you do :] 10:30:21 arcus: nice; that's a good one 10:31:08 no charge :] 10:32:18 arcus: in that case, i'll see your fold; and raise you an x{n+1} 10:34:10 I don't suppose anyone can tell me where I can get information on MacOS's syscalls, can they? 10:34:27 and which registers they munge? 10:34:48 luz [n=davids@201.29.233.55] has joined #scheme 10:59:05 benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has joined #scheme 11:00:33 -!- sad0ur [i=sad0ur@ip-89-103-110-251.karneval.cz] has quit 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I'm a newbie in scheme... can anyone help me with a tail-recursion ? 17:35:40 (define vec (make-vector 3 0))(define (vector-fill vec2 current) 17:35:40 (if (not (= current (vector-length vec2))) 17:35:40 ((vector-set! vec2 current current)(vector-fill vec2 (+ current 1))))) 17:35:40 (vector-fill vec 1) 17:36:21 and the error: In standard input: 17:36:21 8: 0* [vector-fill #(0 1 32) 1] 17:36:21 5: 1 (if (not (= current #)) ((vector-set! vec2 current #) (vector-fill vec2 #))) 17:36:21 6: 2 [# ... 17:36:21 6: 3* [vector-fill #(0 1 32) 2] 17:36:21 5: 4 (if (not #) (# #)) 17:36:23 6: 5 [# #] 17:36:27 standard input:6:5: In expression ((vector-set! vec2 current ...) (vector-fill vec2 #)): 17:36:29 standard input:6:5: Wrong type to apply: # 17:36:32 ABORT: (misc-error) 17:36:34 17:37:21 It's not tail recursion, it's application syntax. 17:38:03 Look over it very carefully. It helps to line up each of the three parts of the if form on their own lines. 17:39:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C8F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:40 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.181] has joined #scheme 17:41:12 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 17:42:01 still not seeing what is wrong but thanks anyway ! 17:49:42 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:02 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:50:32 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:52:40 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:55 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:02:54 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:03:01 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:04:13 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:32 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:07:54 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:14 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:08:40 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:56 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:10:44 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:01 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:22:45 adrian3: (if a (b) (c)), not (if a ((b) (c))) 18:27:50 thanks... after a bit of googling i've found that it's not correct (if a ((b) (c))) but (if a (do (b) (c))) - because I wanted to execute the two commands only if the condition was true 18:28:05 hmm 18:28:43 s/do/begin/ 18:29:07 my mistake ... 18:30:02 sm [n=sm@pool-71-165-166-212.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 18:36:44 r5rs if 18:36:44 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_98 18:36:46 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4xlwxg 18:40:55 noether [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #scheme 18:49:12 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:55:05 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:09 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:19 -!- adrian3 [n=adrian@84.232.184.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:38 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:10:13 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 19:20:47 crathman [n=chatzill@cpe-24-175-84-224.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:23:00 -!- noether [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit ["leaving"] 19:24:12 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 19:27:11 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 19:29:32 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 19:31:17 where can I download all of the PLT reference material as a pdf? Is it possible? 19:35:01 it should be.. you can pass --latex to the tool that generates the reference material, then you could convert latex to pdf 19:35:11 do you have the plt source? 19:36:29 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 19:36:37 alrighty 19:42:30 i wonder whether a define, introduced by a macro expansion, at the start of a (eg. in a let), should 'work' 19:42:49 kazzmir_: for future reference -- http://pre.plt-scheme.org/docs/pdf/ 19:42:55 r5rs isn't very specific ;-/ 19:42:57 yes elmex 19:43:06 well for r6rs at least 19:43:07 'Note that a define at top level may or may not introduce a binding' 19:44:10 in R6RS, in any body that contains a define, the body gets converted to a letrec* 19:44:29 thats also in r5rs 19:44:36 i just wonder whether macros count in :) 19:44:49 i mean, expansions of a macro 19:45:04 why not? 19:45:27 logically it should 'just work' as macros are expanded before evaluation. but neither plt-r5rs nor chicken handle it correctly 19:46:20 elmex: do you have an example of something that you think is incorrect? 19:46:22 this is a good example why I like R6RS, much more specific :p 19:46:45 eli: http://www.ta-sa.org/files/txt/a6f7fb6420af2f61aafa1503abd830be.txt 19:46:55 # plt-r5rs macrodef.scm 19:46:55 reference to undefined identifier: y 19:47:10 # csi -q -b -R riaxpander macrodef.scm 19:47:10 Error: unbound variable: y 19:47:19 u cant do that! 19:47:21 :) 19:47:25 not? 19:47:36 pass the name of the variable to the macro 19:47:43 uhm 19:47:43 elmex: Both plt and chicken are very correct in your case. 19:47:48 lol 19:47:48 else they will be different 19:47:49 right 19:47:56 sorry, forgot that :) 19:48:03 you can use other 'tricks' 19:48:17 damn 19:48:21 if your implementation has syntax-case 19:48:22 it works now 19:48:39 that means that i have to revise how i do macro expansion ;-/ 19:49:16 eli, leppie: thanks :) 19:50:00 np 19:50:01 /win 14 19:50:03 hrm 19:53:25 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.181] has quit [] 19:57:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:00:10 weird 20:00:44 doesn't this define at the beginngin of rule require kind of look ahead? 20:01:39 by the expander? 20:01:49 by the evaluator :) 20:02:40 im not sure i understand 20:02:55 i think i'm not sure if i understand too :) 20:03:02 hmm 20:04:12 r5rs is kind of blurry 20:04:18 err fuzzy 20:05:07 jdelgado [n=jdelgado@138.Red-81-38-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 20:05:22 -!- jdelgado [n=jdelgado@138.Red-81-38-32.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 20:06:19 Why is looking ahead needed? 20:06:42 hmm 20:06:53 With most systems, internal definitions do actually expand to `letrec', which is an obvious counter example. 20:07:02 yes 20:07:21 i guess i just wonder how bodies are evaluated 20:07:42 i have a good example. let me find a link 20:07:56 (let () (define x 10) (somemacro-that-does-expand-to-define newsymbol-1) (define z 20)) 20:08:05 Just like expressions in a `letrec' are evaluated ... mainly because they expand to a letrec. 20:08:54 elmex: You're not talking about *evaluation*, but rather on syntax-expansion. And yes, these examples show the trickiness of making macros work properly. 20:09:06 hmm 20:09:42 it basically means, that the whole body needs to be expandede before it can be evaluated 20:09:46 Specifically, each expression in the body is expanded just enough to tell whether it's a definition or a syntax definition, and the process stops when you get a plain expression. 20:10:25 hmm 20:10:28 I don't think that it implies that, but doing sos (completely expanding before evaluating) is the sensible thing to do, and most implementations do that. 20:10:40 hmmm 20:10:43 sounds reasonable 20:11:29 thanks :) 20:12:53 i just find it weird that r5rs is so blurry w.r.t. macros 20:14:05 maybe i should rather read r6rs 20:17:06 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-100-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:25:09 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:27 r6rs really looks quite big ;-/ 20:28:16 not really 20:28:22 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bye now"] 20:28:47 only about 700 symbols 20:28:50 :) 20:28:53 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has joined #scheme 20:29:24 the first part of it, the language document, is just 59 pages until the appendices 20:29:25 where do you go on freenode to talk about programming languages as they pertain to the technological advancement of mankind 20:29:39 ##politics? 20:29:39 huh? 20:30:01 but the library part of r6rs is quite big ;-/ 20:30:15 or ##physics maybe, nothing could conceivably be offtopic there 20:30:19 or conversely, the advancement of programming languages to a point where they conform to informal semantics ala ordinary language 20:30:33 <3 20:31:08 #pipedreams for that one 20:31:13 yeah right 20:31:16 > (length (environment-symbols (scheme-report-environment 5))) 20:31:16 224 20:31:16 > (length (environment-symbols (environment '(rnrs)))) 20:31:16 687 20:31:22 like python is more complicated than cobol 20:31:26 thers the difference :p 20:31:58 > (length (environment-symbols (environment '(rnrs base)))) 20:31:59 191 20:32:12 so the base of r6rs is smaller than r5rs 20:33:16 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #scheme 20:34:37 I have done a very silly thing folks. 20:34:45 I have written a Gopher server in Scheme. 20:35:01 lol 20:35:40 the only music that communicates what i want to say is my own music 20:35:45 the responsibility of the artist is not to imitate 20:35:48 but to communicate 20:36:13 likewise, as programmers 20:36:22 you all undertake the task of communicating your vision of an ideal solution to a problem 20:36:33 the elegance and effiency of the code is the manner of composition 20:36:48 efficacy 20:37:14 hmm 20:39:26 some programming achieves a breathtaking beauty beyond that of any art that appeals directly to the senses 20:39:35 for it's the manipulation of the intellect that replaces sensual pleasure 20:39:52 scheme code seems to operate the same space as Arvo Part 20:40:06 maybe Xenakis or Stockhausen 20:40:24 *arcfide* sips his tea and admires the curves of his latest parenthetical masterpiece. 20:41:31 intercal is like cubism ;) 20:42:12 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:32 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 20:44:02 arcfide: pray to Aphrodite, and perhaps she will bring your sexps to life. 20:44:39 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 20:50:47 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 20:53:38 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:57:05 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:03:09 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:55 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 21:04:15 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 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puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:42 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:23:40 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 23:27:06 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B054602.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:19 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 23:32:11 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 23:39:08 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/ch1-Z-G-3.gif 23:39:17 Anybody have any idea what the top line says after 5? 23:39:21 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:26 5+++ ? 23:39:29 4 23:39:37 looks like the diagonal got omitted 23:39:40 hah, it does doesn't it 23:39:44 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:39:44 thanks 23:43:35 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:18 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:09 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-51-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 23:54:53 -!- johnnowak [n=johnnowa@207-38-171-48.c3-0.wsd-ubr1.qens-wsd.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:05:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:06:33 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-33-55.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:15:03 automejja [n=edwin@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:15:39 Can someone give me the correct answer for putting this into prefix form http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/ch1-Z-G-3.gif 00:16:49 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:07 Why? 00:17:15 Are you doing homework? 00:18:33 I'm trying to learn how to code using Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 00:18:40 they don't give the answer, so I don't really know if I did it right 00:19:00 I turned it into: 00:19:03 Why don't you tell me your answer, and I'll check it for you? 00:19:32 (+ 5 4) (/ (-2 (-3 (+ 6 .2))) (* 3 (- 6 2) (- 2 7))) 00:19:46 Hm, you seem to have two different expressions there 00:20:14 The (+ 5 4) is kind of floating off by itself. 00:20:49 (+ 5 4 (/ (-2 (-3 (+ 6 .2))) (* 3 (- 6 2) (- 2 7)))) 00:20:50 :) 00:21:02 Logite: review 1.1.1. Then solve exercise 1.2 from the inside out. 00:21:12 -!- luz [n=davids@201.29.233.55] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:19 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 00:21:39 Ah. Then if I do it incorrectly it'll be evaluated incorrectly right? 00:22:13 You don't need to reduce it to its simplest form. Just put that fancy fraction into prefix. 00:22:40 Yes, if you do it incorrectly, then it'll be eval'd incorrectly should you decide to feed it to Scheme. 00:23:42 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A20B7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:47 Logite: if you do decide to feed it to scheme, you should make sure there's a space between the operators and the numbers 00:24:02 (- 2 ...) 00:24:22 Yeah, I've made that mistake more than once 00:24:27 Logite: http://sicp.org.ua/sicp/Exercise1-2 00:24:28 So, e.g. - you have the "6 + 4/5" near the right of the numerator - that's (+ 6 (/ 4 5)). 00:24:43 And then one step out from that, and then one more step, etc., etc. 00:24:53 p1dzkl: giving out the solution is not the answer! 00:25:01 Hahaha 00:25:20 Yeah, I'll just ignore that link :) 00:25:29 p1dzkl: The best thing is to help Logite to see how to evaluate his own answer. 00:25:31 I'm having too much fun to cheat 00:25:39 Logite: Good! :-) 00:26:14 How is what I'm learning going to be applied when I decide to code videogames 00:26:29 Logite: So, to check your answer, find any operation of two numbers, and replace it with the result. Keep doing that until you arrive it a number, or see a spot where you're not evaluating it the same way as you would the mathematical expression. 00:27:23 Logite: The only difference between modern video games and other applications is that there is more math in the video game than most applications have. 00:27:27 Logite: the ability to take an idea and represent it symbolically is the heart of programming. 00:29:02 chandler: he specifically asked for the answer to see if he is correct. it's his own choice if he wants to cheat or learn. (maybe my timing wasn't great though) 00:29:56 Nice to know there's a way to learn this without being flat out told the answer though :) 00:30:07 p1dzkl: That works on simple exercises, but not on more complicated ones. Being able to check your own answer is important. 00:30:21 Also, we tend to favor the socratic style here. 00:32:51 Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 00:33:06 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 00:33:15 -!- Cale_ [n=Cale@CPE001c10c70239-CM000e5cdd834a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:19 Logite: the examples of SICP are fairly remote from videogame programming (w/ the exception of the complex-number arithmetic briefly used later). The concepts that those examples illustrate, however, are universal. 00:35:58 chandler: you're right, just answering the question might be too simple of me 00:39:16 -!- automejja [n=edwin@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Happy Happy Joy Joy."] 00:44:48 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 00:44:48 whew 00:46:53 NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 00:47:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:57:10 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #scheme 01:05:28 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:17:26 Riastradh: ping. 01:17:32 arcfide: pong (email) 01:18:01 (That is, rather than pinging me, just email me, unless you are already sure that I'm present [such as now].) 01:18:23 Riastradh, you prefer an email before checking your existence and activity on #scheme? 01:18:28 Yes. 01:18:36 At any rate, does foof-loop have a STREAM iterator? 01:18:42 I mean IN-STREAM? 01:18:56 No, but you can copy IN-LIST to produce one. 01:19:14 Okay, just change the list accessors? 01:19:17 foof, hmm, I just realized that I completely forgot to respond to you about your question concerning foof-loop extension last night. 01:19:24 foof, or the other night, anyway. 01:19:44 foof, I think some other conversation was distracting. 01:20:23 Riastradh, I notice COLLECT-STREAM, does it rely on a particular SRFI or Interface existing? 01:20:34 It relies on STREAM-CONS and STREAM-NIL. 01:20:38 Okay, thanks. 01:20:50 Thanks for making foof-loop by the way, it's quite handy. 01:21:01 I wonder though, how often you actually use it in your code? 01:21:55 I haven't written a great deal of code in the past year or so. 01:22:08 Riastradh, really? Huh. 01:22:18 Must be busy. 01:23:14 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 01:31:36 Kirakishou [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:32:44 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-226.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:35:07 pants1 [n=hkarau@CPE001c100a7710-CM0011e6be7aa1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 01:35:13 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@bas6-kitchener06-1177625243.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:40 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:41:14 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 01:41:21 -!- pants1 [n=hkarau@CPE001c100a7710-CM0011e6be7aa1.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:43:21 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has joined #scheme 01:47:19 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru152-180.syr.edu] has quit ["troubleshoo"] 01:49:40 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 01:54:49 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #scheme 01:59:46 -!- wchicken [n=stipim@rmtacc26-la.rcs.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:50 wchicken [n=stipim@rmtacc26-la.rcs.rpi.edu] has joined #scheme 02:02:14 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:48 Is there a trick to reading prefix notation and all the parenthesis that encompass them? Or does it get easier over time? 02:08:10 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:08:15 Aside from pretty-printing :) 02:08:27 I find it just...normal 02:08:47 once you learn more you'll probably realize it makes logical sense, and find you prefer it :P 02:09:21 I know it makes logical sense, it's just hard to read 02:09:31 sensible indentation obviates the need to read parens 02:09:40 Ah 02:09:46 they just become wibbly whitespace 02:09:48 well yeah, it should be indented properly 02:09:57 I'm talking aside from pretty printing (indentation) 02:10:12 Guess most code has indentation though 02:10:35 and if it doesn't, your editor should be able to do most of the work to fix that 02:10:57 Logite, Indentation IS the way to read prefix notation. 02:11:24 syntax colouring can help as well, though some people will vehemently disagree with that 02:11:41 I'm not a fan of coloring 02:11:44 aspect, syntax can be nice, but I don't think the gane is nearly what it is with indentation. 02:11:47 Kate does that, and it's just...confusing 02:11:53 s/syntax/syntax coloring/ 02:12:56 I didn't know the norm was indentation. Makes sense now. Thanks 02:12:59 indentation is definitely most important 02:13:00 <- New coder :) 02:13:35 that's why we get upset when people paste code which doesn't follow the conventions. once you pretty-print it, syntax errors become obvious 02:14:17 an error in syntax would be (+1 5) right 02:16:34 it depends if the interpreter defines "+1" 02:16:49 Logite, it's vitally important to ensure proper style when you program if you want to be able to read your code or others code in the future. 02:18:06 Or it will become a mess when you get to read that chunk of code you wrote the week before. 02:18:29 It usually happens anyway. 02:18:30 :P 02:20:37 I was thinking more of misplaced parens -- (let ((x 3) (y 5) (+ x y))) ; -- insert newlines before )s for full effect 02:22:07 aspect, the machines at my university have automatic highlighting for Scheme, and it highlights the parentheses: it annoys me like no other syntax highlighting could (maybe). 02:22:36 I usually like to check balancing as a separate step, or use a structured editor like paredit to ensure balancing, not a mixed combination of the two. 02:22:42 But that's just me. 02:22:59 Right now, using Vi, I just use % to check the balancing, and it works quite well, actually. 02:23:14 It's not like paredit, but, hehe, it certainly works. 02:23:23 pantsd [n=hkarau@76-10-132-42.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #scheme 02:23:27 I've also, rather ashamedly, become an user of brackets. 02:24:08 i find the vim effect of highlighting the matching paren sufficient 02:24:39 Archville, on the Unviserty machine's, Vim also attempts to indicate where a parenthesis is mismatched, and not just the matching ones, which is the annoying part. 02:24:54 s/Unviserty/University 02:24:57 parens should be lowlighted 02:25:02 s/machine's/machines 02:25:15 by the way, a question 02:25:17 parens should be hover-mousovered like lisppaste! :-) 02:25:27 aspect, exactly, not highlight in bright red so that your eye can't see anything else. 02:25:34 is there a standard literal syntax for hashtables ? 02:25:41 *aspect* oscillates between liking and loathing :set showmatch 02:25:45 Archville, not really. 02:25:52 Archvile, At least, not that I know of. 02:25:57 Archville, how would you do that? 02:26:15 Maybe something like #(:key value :key value...) 02:26:16 usually people asking such questions are expecting Perl 02:26:19 :-) 02:26:22 -!- aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:24 chandler: heh 02:26:29 Archville, but with EQ hashtables .... 02:27:00 Archvile, a literal syntax for EQ hashtables would be rather useless unless it was like quasiquote. 02:27:07 Archville, ^^^ 02:27:18 mmmmm 02:27:27 And I certainly don't want some junk like PHP Association List syntax. 02:27:33 then if you define a hash table how should it be represented ? 02:27:34 *arcfide* shudders. 02:27:47 Archville, I don't think you can serialize a hashtable easily. 02:27:58 Archville, if at all. 02:28:08 Archville, maybe an EQUAL? based hashtable. 02:28:17 serialization is hard! let's go shopping. 02:28:30 rudybot: quote 02:28:30 chandler: Let's have a science fiction universe in which every planet has its own climate. 02:28:38 woohoo! 02:30:43 When I type in (+ 6 (/ 4 5)) and try to evaluate it how come I get 34/5 instead of 6.8 02:31:22 because Scheme supports exacts 02:31:38 When did `exact' become a noun? 02:32:55 shortly before I verbed it 02:32:56 Logite, the rational notation is interpreted as an exact numerical value; the decimal notation is interpreted as inexact. When one is writing data, one can use the `#e' and `#i' prefixes to force either exactness or inexactness, but when Scheme is writing numbers to you, it chooses either the rational or decimal notation based on the exactness of the number. 02:33:38 Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 02:33:56 one particularly nice things about #scheme is that we can usually rely on Riastradh to exact anything we say 02:34:15 crathman [n=chatzill@cpe-24-175-84-224.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:34:29 damn, I'm conflicting with a semi-archaic meaning of exact as a verb 02:34:33 *aspect* goes back to sleep 02:34:38 Hmm 02:36:05 aspect: ... semi-archaic? 02:36:30 In any event, Riastradh will exact a correction for objectionably bad nouning of words. 02:37:17 And I say, let him loose on all those ill-begotten nouns. 02:37:34 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:58 How would I enter in the #i prefix for (+ 6 (/ 4 5)) ? 02:38:07 rudybot: eval #i10 02:38:07 arcfide: ; Value: 10.0 02:38:20 You wouldn't, Logite -- the #i prefix applies only to literal numeric data. 02:38:20 rudybot: eval (+ #i6 (/ 4 5)) 02:38:21 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 02:38:21 arcfide: ; Value: 6.8 02:38:25 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 02:38:37 However, if you perform a computation with an inexact number, you will generally get an inexact result. 02:38:39 Huh. 02:38:51 chandler: he's particularly skilled too at exacting exactment of poorly-phrased questions 02:38:55 You learn something new everyday. I had no idea those syntaxes were around. 02:39:12 How would I get an inexact number from (+ 6 (/ 4 5)) then? 02:39:18 *aspect* .o ( exactification? ) 02:39:20 I don't need to, just curious 02:39:28 Use the procedure EXACT->INEXACT. 02:39:39 r5rs exact->inexact 02:39:39 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_346 02:39:41 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4urkch 02:39:44 I'll just save it for later :) 02:40:04 Way over my head, this is 02:40:10 Do note, by the way, that there is no particularly significant relation between the default notation used for numbers and the properties of their internal representations. 02:40:13 In general, it is better to only convert a number to inexact representation at the end of computation, right, to keep things as exact as possible? 02:40:34 Assuming that there are some limitations in the precision of an inexact number. 02:40:46 In general, generally. 02:40:52 Generally, it's general. 02:41:00 But that's just a generalization. 02:41:05 arcfide, in general, numerical analysis is hard. 02:41:46 ... let's go shopping for exacts! 02:41:56 With exact change, of course. 02:43:06 arcfide: if there weren't limitations in the precision of an inexact number, it wouldn't be inexact. 02:43:52 If your computation can be done entirely with exact numbers, why are you converting it to an inexact number at the end? 02:45:21 chandler, printed representations. 02:46:11 The real issue is that Scheme has no useful number formatter -- partly because number formatting is non-trivial, too. 02:46:47 I have been using the equivalent of Common Lisp's FORMAT. 02:47:45 Which is slightly amusing, given that IIRC Dybvig wrote the canonical paper on printing floats accurately. 02:47:57 (And yes, "float" is a noun!) 02:48:03 chandler, I'm using his implementation of FORMAT. 02:48:21 Well, NUMBER->STRING does a perfectly good job of giving a *canonical* string for an inexact number or an exact number. 02:48:33 It's no good, however, for controlling the format of the output more precisely. 02:48:35 Ah, true. 02:49:29 Riastradh, speaking of FORMAT, MIT Scheme's version seems rather limited and incomplete. 02:49:29 hm 02:49:35 For instance, suppose I want to write the hexadecimal representation of a real number in scientific notation, with a maximum significand of n bits. 02:49:35 Alas, FORMAT is extremely ugly. 02:49:45 arcfide, read the comment at the top of the file. 02:50:38 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-22-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:50:51 Riastradh, in other words, this is a quickie hack and I don't want anyone to expect anything from it? 02:51:02 Right. 02:51:21 Riastradh: You can't do that with FORMAT either. 02:51:26 It was used to generate some sort of OS/2 FFI cruft. 02:51:35 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 02:51:46 foof, that's right. I didn't claim that CL FORMAT was any good either. 02:51:49 With my FMT you can at least print fixed-precision hexadecimal numbers. 02:53:22 No, it was also used before that...I don't know for what. In any case, it is pretty cruftily minimal. 02:54:41 Anyway, time for bed. 02:55:34 aiur [n=Jan@218.109.90.254] has joined #scheme 03:00:31 tizoc__ [n=user@r190-135-16-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 03:01:34 -!- Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:04:51 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-22-77.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:20 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:52 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:12:04 -!- tizoc__ is now known as tizoc_ 03:12:13 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-51-118.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:19 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 03:15:57 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 03:18:27 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-165-166-212.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:28 -!- seth [n=seth@76-191-139-155.dsl.static.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:38:39 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 03:41:51 brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #scheme 03:45:45 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:47:21 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 03:58:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:10:10 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176205097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:10:23 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 04:11:14 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:13:26 -!- pantsd [n=hkarau@76-10-132-42.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:21 set1 [n=seth@c-24-7-88-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:23:39 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:23:58 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:26:19 -!- tjafk1 [n=timj@e176192126.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:39 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:43:31 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:44:51 Anyone here familiar with uninformed breadth-first search? 04:46:17 arcfide, familiar in what sense? 04:46:42 kilimanjaro, familiar enough that they could look at a loop I have for doing one and let me know if any obvious errors in logic exist? 04:47:06 go ahead, I'll take a gander 04:48:08 arcfide pasted "Uninformed bread-first search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67554 04:49:56 hmm, I'm not very familiar with this loop language (foof-loop?) 04:50:05 kilimanjaro, yeah, sorry, it's foof-loop. 04:50:21 Basically, I loop through a list of generated moves or successor branches. 04:50:43 At each branch that doesn't match, I append to the end the successor branches with the current tracking state at the head. 04:51:03 I stop if I reach a limit of comparisons. 04:51:37 sounds fine to me 04:51:37 When I encounter a list in the states, it means I'm heading to another area of the tree, so I update the tracking information. 04:52:31 I also check to see if we have encountered a given state before, and if we have, I consider that a dead branch, and move on. 04:53:15 why do you do that? 04:53:35 is this search tree being generated from a cyclic graph or something? 04:53:39 kilimanjaro, because it's possible that I have repeated states. 04:53:42 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:53:46 I'm search a graph, not a tree. 04:53:55 ahh ok 04:54:06 s/search/searching/ 04:55:16 -!- Kirakishou [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:55:24 kilimanjaro, so it all seems okay to you? 04:55:30 yes 04:55:30 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 04:58:38 MichaelRaskin_1 [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has joined #scheme 04:59:24 In DrScheme, I like to keep the program contour open all the time... I'm not sure if it's a result of the latest update, but hovering a pointer over the contour window and moving it back and forth to the definitions or interactions window makes the ide flicker - because it's showing the status-line of the contour and then disappears when you're not in the contour... 04:59:46 any way to make the status-line permanent so that it doesn't flicker? 04:59:57 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@gwh-1-177-mytn23k1.ln.rinet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:43 I have the status line with the line numbers, status and language type, but that's not all I'm referring to ... just above it, the details of the contour will appear and then quickly disappear... anyone notice this? 05:04:03 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:35 yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 05:17:06 -!- set1 [n=seth@c-24-7-88-195.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:15 I'd ask in #DrScheme... if it existed... anyone have any thoughts on my question ? 05:17:36 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.136.67] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:16 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.202.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:30:03 ivan [n=ivan@unaffiliated/ivan/x-000001] has joined #scheme 05:39:05 Yes. Turn off the contour window. Or go nuts and commit to fixing the bug yourself. The contour window looks like an experiment in high-level program source visualization/navigation, and DrScheme, like most academic products, is a work in progress. 05:40:42 (It was interesting to me to see just how unuseful the contour window was, to me. I had previously fantasized about such a feature -- yes, I have rather boring fantasies -- and so was excited to happen across it in DrScheme.) 05:41:42 (I think with some tweaks it could be more useful than it is today. I have no time even to explore those tweaks. Alas for fantasies.) 05:44:44 Did someone just fork PLT? 05:44:54 http://spark-scheme.wikispot.org/Screenshots 05:47:28 mejja: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.scheme/msg/e69c01307cb9c73f 05:49:42 Looks like he replaced MrEd. 05:53:22 And replaced wxWidgets with FLTK. hhttp://www.fltk.org/ 05:53:51 .. and dropped OS X and Windows support, yay :/ 05:55:16 Well, he does say it's for his own use. Life gets a lot simpler if you can avoid the mac/win/x triangle. 05:57:40 He promises Windows support, but if he's using FLTK for that it's going to be butt-ugly due to lack of native widgets. 05:57:56 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:58:09 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 05:58:20 sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 06:04:16 *mejja* RIP Paul Newman 06:04:43 hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has joined #scheme 06:10:54 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:17:19 hadronzoo__ [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 06:18:25 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:19:48 -!- Mr_Awesome 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terminated!"] 14:46:16 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 14:50:03 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:51:02 Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 14:52:08 I've been reading through sicp and i don't feel like it's really teaching me things i need to know to write programs 14:52:29 I want to be able to make programs. Not just theoretical stuff. 14:53:20 emma: was just thinking about you, emma; haven't seen you since the halcyon days of ron paul 14:53:35 Yeah. 14:53:47 I still support Ron Paul and his campaign for liberty. 14:53:54 how far have you gotten in sicp, by the way? 14:54:05 Around chapter 2. 14:54:28 I feel like i want to make programs, but it's just talking about computer science fundamentals. 14:54:38 I want to learn those things too but i want to be able to write programs also. 14:54:40 kohwj [n=di@bb121-7-29-131.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 14:54:45 maybe scheme is not the best language for writing programs 14:55:00 i made a lot of money last year writing scheme programs 14:55:06 oh yeah? 14:55:11 it really starts to get good around ch. 3 and 4 14:55:17 i see. 14:55:26 And you have to write answers to the exercises. 14:55:31 does it become more practical like, how do you interact with data? 14:55:31 emma, it's talking about computer science fundamentals because those are more important than having memorized a few APIs. 14:55:41 emma: yeah, mutation and so forth 14:55:44 encapsulation 14:55:58 I'm talking about how you would in practice manipulate say, some text, with scheme. 14:56:06 where are you going to learn that? 14:56:15 or how to manipulate graphics on the screen with scheme 14:56:21 Skimming a reference manual for an existing solution to a problem is not particularly difficult. Learning to fabricate new solutions to problems is not. 14:56:56 emma, you would find a reference manual for an existing solution to that problem. If the existing solution is not at the level you want, then you'll have to figure out how to implement the level you want in terms of what you can find. 14:57:05 And finding the right problems to solve is even harder. 14:57:14 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-55-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 14:58:09 all im saying is that i want to be able to write programs. it would be more fun. 14:58:27 If you're not writing programs while reading SICP, then you're not really reading SICP. 14:58:32 it gets tiresome to try to learn scheme when all you can write is a program to find the square root. 14:58:46 This is not an uncommon complain, guys. 14:58:56 Or complaint, even. 14:59:34 emma: People have written many different types of programs with Scheme. SICP is not about learning to program Scheme, it's about learning concepts 14:59:55 Daemmerung: It's true that it would be nice to have a "hands on" book for Scheme programmers 14:59:55 Is there a good book for learning how to program scheme? 15:00:06 Something like "Practical Common Lisp" for Scheme 15:00:31 emma: You can check out the Guile code from PLEAC. 15:00:41 sjamaan: such a book would have to start by blessing a particular implementation. 15:00:48 I think there's also a PLT wiki somewhere with a cookbook. 15:00:56 emma, there is, say, Dybvig's _Scheme Programming Language_, listed in the topic (tspl3). 15:00:56 emma: On the chicken wiki there are a few "chicken for X programmers". If you already master one of the X languages, perhaps you will find these useful 15:00:58 my friends do things like make plugins for the suppybot in our channel. I do the excersies in SICP but they are stuff like 'find the prime factorisation of an integer'. It isn't the same thing as a program. 15:01:06 schemecookbook.org - I think it's kind of stale - 15:01:09 We have Ruby, Python and PHP, iirc 15:01:12 what about HtDP? it's supposed to be less monastic than SICP 15:01:48 emma: rudybot, minion and sarahbot are all written in Scheme 15:01:53 though i've never looked at it myself 15:01:55 At least for Sarahbot the code is available on the web 15:02:31 sarahbot: source? 15:02:32 *foof* is also written in Scheme 15:02:35 heh 15:02:43 Wake up, sarahbot! 15:03:05 Did someone send her into some endless loop with another bot again? 15:03:07 sjamaan: eli killed her 15:03:12 *sjamaan* sighs 15:03:15 with a y combinator 15:03:33 *klutometis* recites some CLUE incantation about the butler, etc. 15:03:41 SICP assumes that you'll be motivated by the promise of someday writing Euler's Method using streams. Hardly universal. 15:03:54 yeah 15:04:09 Daemmerung: again, i heard HtDP is more "exciting" 15:04:15 have you looked at it? 15:04:53 klutometis: I have not. But I am a PLT zombie nowadays, and am pretty partial to it for Writing Programs. The kind of programs emma likes, the ones that light up pixels etc. 15:04:59 minion: advice for emma 15:04:59 emma: #11911: You wrote the same thing twice here. The cardinal rule of programming is that you never ever write the same thing twice. 15:05:19 Daemmerung: but that's exactly what happens when you perform the SICP rite of passage 15:05:31 (or even when you don't, i suppose) 15:06:11 I love SICP. I own two copies: one red, one purple. But I don't advocate it universally. 15:06:49 i think the front cover says it all: the book is a mystical incantation; some bizarre gateway to Real Programs 15:06:53 I have SICP very nicely translated to my native language. 15:07:04 I want to keep reading sicp so i can be smarter, but I feel like I might have to give up on scheme being my first programming langauge because by the time i finish reading the book, all my friends will already have written many programs in other languages. 15:07:15 klutometis: Yeah, the cover is funky and quite interesting 15:07:21 emma: Especially PHP. Nothing to miss, really. 15:07:36 antoszka: ? 15:07:46 sjamaan: ¿ 15:07:50 emma: but they'll suffer from the glass ceiling of never-having-read-SICP; their progress will have definite limits 15:08:01 antoszka: What do you mean with "especially PHP"? 15:08:52 sjamaan: It's a mess of a language. 15:09:04 I know, I hack it at work :( 15:09:16 But I didn't understand what the comment was a reply to 15:09:30 sjamaan: probably a denigration of php as a "trough language" 15:09:48 i've hacked in it myself for years, and feel the dumber for it ;) 15:10:05 It's just very demotivating 15:10:16 php itself, or antoszka's comments? 15:10:23 You code around its problems and feel you're doing a lot of heavy lifting that's already there, in Scheme 15:10:25 sjamaan: A comment to emma's thesis about having friends have already written something in the future. 15:10:30 A few people I know who tried to learn programming said that the books don't teach how to program. Most introductory books show only "trivial" programs, but I think that if one doesn't learn to program more complex programs than those presented in the books, it's the reader's inability to generalize. 15:10:34 antoszka: ah, I see 15:10:39 it's high time someone wrote an r5rs in php, of course 15:10:46 i've been meaning to 15:10:51 There isn't one? 15:10:56 not that i know of 15:11:04 i even bought the domain: spheme.org 15:11:15 The biggest problem with PHP is that it just segfaults when the stack overflows 15:11:43 That would make implementing a proper r5 interpreter difficult 15:11:43 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:11:51 ineiros: I've never seen a book that says, "Here is an existing program. And here is how you study that program." 15:11:54 s/proper/useful/ 15:11:55 most VM's would do that 15:11:59 with a programing language if you see your friends making plugins for the supybot and you are plodding through examples where you implement newtons method for finding a square root, you feel like you are missing out and not getting anywhere fast. 15:12:03 that's all i'm saying. 15:12:15 leppie: Segfault? No way. Thrown an exception, probably 15:12:19 emma: take a break, write some real stuff, and come back 15:12:28 but an unrecoverable one 15:12:49 Why? The exception unwinds the stack 15:12:50 well at least on .NET you can catch a StackOverflowException 15:12:56 cant 15:12:59 grrr 15:13:16 i think that is a good thing :) 15:13:24 emma: you're not necessarily going to be able to write plugins for the "supybot" (whatever that is) in Scheme. The /concepts/ you are learning in SICP will work in whatever language supydupybot uses. The actual chars you type, however, will be different. 15:13:40 you could always run it in a thread i guess 15:13:48 There is certainly a point where you have to say "okay, enough theory already," and start hacking. 15:14:19 start with something small, i used to like writing irc bots :) 15:14:29 yeah, irc bots are a very nice starting point 15:14:32 Daemmerung: But there are books about reading code. Books such as "Code reading: the open source perspective". But I think we can agree that actually trying to program something beyond what's taught in the books is necessary in the learning process? 15:14:45 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-16-65.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:08 ineiros: I don't know that book, and I'm not disagreeing with you. 15:16:57 emma: What would you really want to program? Do you want to make plugins for this "supybot"? Or do you have something else in mind? 15:21:51 is it possible, by the way, to reference both a variable's symbol and value from within a macro? 15:22:00 Please be more specific, klutometis. 15:22:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:22:24 I'd like to write a debugging procedure which takes a list of symbols, and print those symbols along with their bindings. 15:22:42 At whatever scope I happen to be in at the time. 15:22:58 So you want (DEBUG x ...) to expand to (BEGIN (PP `(x is ,x)) ...)? 15:23:04 exactly 15:24:14 riaprestoexactidude! 15:25:09 klutometis, so take what I just wrote, and put (SYNTAX-RULES () (---)) around it. 15:27:07 Riastradh: works beautifully; i wasted the whole morning in string-join and map 15:29:32 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@58.49.18.229] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:29:40 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:34:11 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 15:35:47 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-84-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 15:37:40 -!- olgen [n=jacobm@0x535f66c5.bynxx14.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 15:40:56 emma: The problem that you're talking about is definitely real. See the "guides" in the PLT Scheme docs (the "Getting Started" section at docs.plt-scheme.org) for a quick intro to the language from a practical point of view. 15:48:35 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:50 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 15:48:55 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055162.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 15:51:50 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:55:42 hmm 15:58:23 somehow syntax-case is initimidating, now that i finally understood how syntax-rules is supposed to work it turns out to be just another riddle ... 16:02:59 -!- sarahbot [n=siscbot@24-155-246-159.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:03 sarahbot [n=siscbot@24-155-246-159.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #scheme 16:04:09 also i don't understand why to introduce syntax-case in r6rs as part of the 'library', when it is more 'useful' than syntax-rules, when in fact syntax-rules can probably be expressed by syntax-case 16:04:38 `Library' really means `taken out of the ``core'' to quiet detractors', I suspect. 16:04:54 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 16:05:20 Riastradh: i certanily got the same impression 16:05:37 library ususally means to me: 'can be implemented with the core language' 16:06:36 well, ok, that definition i just gave is certainly bogus 16:06:52 I/O is certainly something that is not directly 'core' of a language 16:08:48 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.174] has joined #scheme 16:10:09 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:00 i'm also confused a bit, in one way i like r6rs, it introduces libraries, a nicer more useful I/O library and certainly is a more accurate definition of the language. on the other hand, compared to r5rs, it feels a little bit bloated on the edges 16:15:18 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:15:43 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:15:50 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:13 'Moreover, implementations must support exact integer objects and exact rational number objects of practically unlimited size and precision' 16:16:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:16:35 introducing a requirement for GMP just like that also feels burdensome 16:16:57 it's not a requirement for GMP. 16:16:57 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:13 Bignums and ratnums existed *long* before GMP. 16:17:17 yes, not GMP, but some equivalent implementation of bignums 16:18:26 What is a burden is a language that quietly does modular arithmetic when the programmer wanted integer arithmetic, or that quietly loses precision when the programmer didn't ask for it. 16:18:56 BW^-4376 [i=Miranda@79.138.200.116.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 16:19:02 elmex: you could just as easily claim that Scheme's GC req is burdensome. 16:19:07 Arbitrary hardware restrictions shouldn't affect the language. 16:19:22 Daemmerung: yes :) 16:19:37 Bignums are not difficult to code. The challenge lies in having their performance, um, not suck. 16:19:46 Would you like to write programs with the assumption that you can represent integers in the range [-32768, 32767)? 16:19:48 yes 16:20:01 Riastradh: sometimes :) 16:20:07 There are two separate issues, Daemmerung. 16:20:12 One is fast bignum arithmetic. 16:20:19 Another is fast generic arithmetic. 16:20:20 r5rs didn't enforce that at least 16:20:36 Riastradh: that is also #t. 16:21:02 Fast generic being a completely different problem. 16:21:15 Some hardware actually makes fast generic arithmetic *easy* -- at least, the fixnum case of generic arithmetic. 16:21:20 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:21:50 Code always as fixnum, and if exception raised, fall into laborious generic case? 16:22:34 i guess bignums are indeed not a that big thing to require... 16:22:47 so i agree 16:23:24 Riastradh: How? 16:23:45 elmex: I think everybody has their own particular "what the hell is THIS doing in the spec?" for Scheme. I certainly have mine. 16:23:45 it's also interesting that one can only capture exceptions with the exception library... 16:24:18 but at least the spec _HAS_ exception handlers now 16:25:48 maybe r6rs is exactly what scheme needs: some more implementations that implement a big chunk of srfis before they claim to be 'conformant to the spec' 16:26:08 You can branch on overflow, or if the hardware allows signal on overflow, but to take that and retroactively perform the computation as a bignum you need to have special cases to jump to for every possible point in a procedure where overflow might occur. 16:26:36 yes, i investigated the performance of that today 16:27:11 gmp is around 20 times slower than a plain addition, but with checks in place, it might juse become 5 times slower 16:27:44 elmex: you're writing the Scheme in c#, right? Does c# not have native bignum support? (or am I thinking of somebody else?) 16:28:00 Daemmerung: do a s/#// and you are right :) 16:28:22 I do apologize. So many suckas with colorful names here. 16:28:23 Daemmerung: i belive you mistake me for the guy that ports jscheme to c#, right? 16:28:28 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 16:28:34 No hit! Please no hit! 16:28:37 *Daemmerung* cringes 16:28:39 lol 16:28:46 no offense taken :) 16:28:54 but C comes with great bignum support, called GMP :) 16:29:15 i'll just use GMP for all numbers from the start, and optimize later :-> 16:29:37 i belive, as the rest of the interpreter is going to be slow anyways it won't be the worst slowdown 16:29:41 heh 16:30:13 i mean, it doesn't help much if integer addition is rock-fast if you need 100 instructions to set it up 16:30:52 Generic isn't that slow. I once hacked fixnums into a bignum-only interpreter and won big. 16:31:04 ? 16:31:22 ah 16:31:49 you mean you introduced a small subset of fast integers? 16:32:07 Fixnums. Yes. 16:32:18 hmm 16:32:34 yes, i had something like that in mind w.r.t. optimizing numbers 16:32:51 But in so doing, I introduced all manner of complexity. I think that targeting bignums only initially is a wise move. 16:33:49 yes, optimizing the numbers when i don't even have a clue about how to implement syntax-case is what one might call 'premature optimisation' :) 16:34:01 grnman [n=grnman@c-76-110-165-179.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:34:08 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.140.208.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:28 hell knows what i need to do - but i need to research syntax-case for some more days anyways 16:35:08 are you going to use psyntax? 16:35:18 1. ensure that you have a clean phase separation. 2. steal the implementation from aziz or vantonder. 3. profit!! 16:35:27 hmm 16:35:34 yes, i wondered whether i should use psyntax 16:36:32 Daemmerung: what do you mean with phase seperation? 16:39:33 elmex psyntax is good :) 16:39:42 i fear it's slow :) 16:40:09 it is, for loading 16:40:17 after that it's relatively fast 16:40:35 elmex: macro expansion vs compile vs execute. If you partition these cleanly you'll more easily retrofit 3rd party macro-expansion solutions. 16:40:40 i have made a few tweaks to make things faster especially for loading 16:40:55 hmmm 16:41:22 but those require hashtable and records support 16:41:39 i certainly also miss the requirements for running psyntax ;) 16:42:36 IIRC i just need gensym, file-exists and delete-file, and a few r5rs procedures 16:42:48 hm, k 16:42:59 you will need to have a scheme to bootstrap however 16:43:13 i used one of the pre expanded files to do that 16:43:38 i saw the one linked to from r6rs.org at least got a bootstrapping file 16:43:40 now i simply call (load "bootfile") 16:44:45 still, i would like to understand how syntax-case works and might be implemented before just defaulting to an implementation :-) 16:44:48 i remember the build took almost 2 minutes the first time i got it working 16:45:05 now its less than 8 seconds 16:45:12 :) 16:46:26 i was so excited that i got it working without much effort 16:47:22 s/that/when rather 16:48:29 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 16:49:01 peter_12 [n=peter_12@d75-157-225-201.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 16:51:06 :) 16:51:24 my current interpreter has no real 'phase' seperation 16:51:32 -!- kohwj [n=di@bb121-7-29-131.singnet.com.sg] has left #scheme 16:51:36 -!- yhara [n=yhara@78.200.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:51:55 i just have an evaluator, that already does tail call optimisation, which i thought might be able to handle macros when they come up 16:52:20 you can do quite a lot with just a macro 'function' that is a lambda at compile time 16:52:37 i also woneder how to expand the _whole_ source code before evaluating it, because i need to know about the current syntactic closure when defining macros 16:53:07 i even need a closure from that time :) 16:55:09 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-86.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:55:43 it gets tricky :p 16:55:57 thats why i am glad i found psyntax 16:56:12 hmm, that trickyness is what i want to solve :) 16:56:53 they have been trying for 20 years :) 16:58:04 i just need to expand every macro in order, then pass the resulting program into my compiler, and then in my evluator 16:59:32 aww, gotta go for now, thanks for your time to listen to my thoughs :) 17:05:20 cheers 17:13:33 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:13:39 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@d75-157-225-201.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [] 17:15:32 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.174] has quit [] 17:15:44 -!- BW^-4376 is now known as BW^- 17:18:11 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:22:44 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 17:24:32 sigma957 [n=user@c-71-59-252-229.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:24:39 -!- sigma957 [n=user@c-71-59-252-229.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:58 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@27.Red-88-14-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:31:57 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@27.Red-88-14-175.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #scheme 17:32:57 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:47:29 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:47:35 cky_ [n=cky@203-211-92-109.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 17:48:16 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:51:08 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-102-87.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:54:03 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:55:57 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 17:56:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:57:38 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 17:59:42 how to compile Scheme to JavaScript when JavaScript does not have tail call elimination or goto? 18:01:03 Could you abuse a while() loop as local goto? 18:01:57 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 18:02:07 Hmm, that won't solve mutually recursive functions 18:02:08 sjamaan: I was thinking about that 18:02:11 How about a trampoline? 18:02:26 it can solve mutually recursive functions with more abuse 18:02:44 what it cannot do is solve the problem of multiple compiled source files being downloaded 18:02:51 what is trampoline? 18:03:01 A function that calls other functions 18:03:13 The functions it calls return some structure that describes what function to call next 18:03:34 sjamaan: Thanks. I'll think about that 18:03:48 Good luck :) 18:03:51 that sounds better than while abuse anyway 18:04:00 You could also have a look at some existing scheme->js compilers 18:04:04 I think there are several 18:04:19 some are not really scheme->js but are just very thin wrappers 18:04:33 The ones I've looked at for example don't have tail call elimination 18:06:25 That won't do 18:07:57 -!- pfo [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has left #scheme 18:17:16 peter_12: scheme2js 18:17:23 -!- Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:17:41 Elly [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #scheme 18:18:45 Daemmerung: thanks. 18:18:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:19:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 18:21:00 leppie: not expanding macros is a really bad idea. 18:23:06 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:21 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #scheme 18:25:26 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:08 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:27:13 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 18:27:47 eli: can one construct a cvector of _list-struct ctypes? (I haven't tried this - am lazily asking you first.) 18:28:42 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 18:31:56 Daemmerung: I don't see any reason not to be able to do that. 18:32:45 ...yeah, seems to work. 18:33:54 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:34:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 18:34:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:14 anyone used to the DNS Protocol? 18:35:16 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 18:35:42 i'm trying to get the TTL out of elf's dns egg, and i'm getting values in the range from zero to five right now, which seems far too low. 18:38:58 What does dig say? 18:39:12 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 18:43:25 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:45:36 my local dns server 10.0.2.3 gives for potato.com : potato.com. 86400 IN A 72.3.135.151 18:46:01 Sounds like the library is broken. 18:46:11 Looks like the library's web page is broken, too, or missing. 18:46:13 maybe it maps 18:46:21 to some other value 18:46:26 when printing the ttl value when making (dns:handle-resolver "10.0.2.3" (dns:name->label "potato.com") #f #t '(A)) 18:46:33 it prints TTL is 1 1 1 0 0 0 18:46:45 ie there's six different runs for different parts of the response 18:49:10 ciskje [n=francesc@host208-202-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:49:31 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 18:49:54 oh, i think i see a bug in the lib, it uses bstr16->num rather than bstr32->num for getting the value.- 18:50:23 woohoo works! :) 18:51:29 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #scheme 19:07:41 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:13 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 19:19:52 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:00 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-74-30.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:20:30 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:26:00 -!- lyeberry [n=jarrell@adsl-214-235-6.rmo.bellsouth.net] has left #scheme 19:26:54 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:19 hircus [n=michel@c-98-228-41-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 19:33:17 GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:46:03 luz [n=davids@201.29.205.110] has joined #scheme 19:48:38 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 19:51:36 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 19:52:08 -!- GoNoGo [n=GoNoGo@cro34-3-82-236-93-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.2/2008091620]"] 20:01:27 riastradh: apparently dns went from 16 to 32 bit fields, and it needs updating :) not exactly broken. 20:03:49 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:04:04 -!- ciskje [n=francesc@host208-202-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 20:06:04 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:08:42 synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 20:09:04 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:57 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 20:18:01 Hey everyone, what's up? 20:18:24 drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 20:18:54 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:49 sstrickl_ [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:20:52 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.92] has joined #scheme 20:22:33 vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #scheme 20:22:58 error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 20:25:03 -!- brweber2 [n=brweber2@ip68-100-65-167.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:33:07 -!- jmo- [n=jmo-@83.233.163.34] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:06 -!- sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:21 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:48 -!- errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:37:41 george_ [n=george@189.107.188.43] has joined #scheme 20:37:59 need some help in sicp ...=/ 20:40:20 http://fpaste.org/paste/6678 20:40:29 what is the difference ? 20:41:31 george_, can you step me through how you, as a Scheme evaluator, would evaluate the expression (TEST 0 (P))? 20:42:43 Riastradh: well ... the result of test procedure will be "y" , and "y would be "(p)", then (p) would be (p) ... and goes forever 20:44:01 You don't actually know yet (as a Scheme evaluator) that the result of the TEST procedure will be whatever Y is. In fact, if you took a wild guess, based on the body of TEST and what X is, you might guess that the result of the whole thing is 0 -- but it's not. 20:44:18 As a Scheme evaluator, you aren't even looking at the body of TEST until you know what the values of the arguments are. 20:44:43 -!- sondermann [n=user@237-221-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:33 -!- Paraselene__ [n=None@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 20:46:58 Riastradh: so what would be the difference between the normal order and the applicative order ? 20:47:16 Well, suppose you were a normal-order evaluator, rather than a Scheme (applicative-order) evaluator. 20:47:21 What would you do then? 20:47:48 Riastradh: i would fully expand and then solve 20:47:53 Fully expand what? 20:47:58 Go step by step, please. 20:48:06 1. To evaluate (TEST 0 (P)), you must first...? 20:49:09 Riastradh: to evaluate (test 0 (p)), i would chance the procedure (p) with the result of the procedure (p) ... that would be (p) ... 20:49:16 Not in a normal-order evaluator! 20:49:40 In an applicative-order evaluator, you first evaluate TEST, and find that it's a procedure. What then? 20:50:25 Riastradh: then evaluate the procedure (p) ? 20:50:31 No... 20:50:49 What is the general rule for normal-order evaluation? 20:51:09 sondermann [n=user@129-194-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 20:51:11 Riastradh: fully expand ? 20:51:17 Can you be more specific? 20:51:56 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:22 Riastradh: rewrite de procedure with "solved" arguments 20:52:28 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 20:52:37 ciskje [n=francesc@host208-202-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 20:52:45 `De'? Are we talking French or English here? 20:53:00 Riastradh: sorry ... 20:53:02 Riastradh: the 20:53:11 Please try to communicate in complete English sentences; it's hard otherwise to make sense to one another. 20:53:37 Riastradh: rewrite the procedure with "solved arguments 20:53:48 Riastradh: rewrite the procedure with "solved" arguments 20:54:13 That's not really any better. I don't know what `solved' means here, and in fact I suspect that it's exactly the opposite of what normal-order evaluation is about. Can you quote SICP's definition of normal-order evaluation? 20:58:21 Riastradh: An alternative evaluation model would not evaluate the operands until their values were needed. Instead it would first substitute operand expressions for parameters until it obtained an expression involving only primitive operators, and would then perform the evaluation. If we used this method, the evaluation of 20:59:26 george_, so, when you see (TEST 0 (P)), what do you do if you are evaluating it in normal-order? 20:59:40 Riastradh: when i said fully expand ... i meant that i will rewrite until i saw only primitive expressions , then i would start solving 20:59:50 So, can you be more specific? 21:00:06 Riastradh: i would change (p) by the result of (p) 21:00:13 No... 21:00:19 -!- Elly is now known as Elly|spare 21:00:31 For instance, if I have (DEFINE (SUM-OF-SQUARES A B) (+ (* A A) (* B B))), and I were evaluating (SUM-OF-SQUARES (* 2 3) (/ 5 4)), the steps would go like this: 21:00:44 1. Evaluate SUM-OF-SQUARES, to find a procedure. 21:01:04 2. Substitute (* 2 3) for A and (/ 5 4) for B in the body of the procedure, and reduce the question to the evaluation of 21:01:16 (+ (* (* 2 3) (* 2 3)) (* (/ 5 4) (/ 5 4))) 21:01:52 that is normal order right ? 21:01:58 Yes. 21:01:58 yes 21:02:29 Riastradh: applicative order would be ... 21:02:44 Riastradh, you had a problem with SRFI-41 over SRFI-40, didn't you? 21:02:44 the opposite of normal order 21:02:56 Riastradh, I made an IN-FXVECTOR iterator, but ran into some trouble with the exports, I needed to define a whole host of implicit exports and also include the foof-loop source in my module definition in order for it to work. However, you managed to write an IN-SKIP-LIST without doing this, and I am wondering if I made some kind of mistake somewhere. 21:03:38 Riastradh: 1.evaluate (* 2 3) and (/ 5 4) 21:04:04 george_, and evaluate the expression SUM-OF-SQUARES! 21:04:33 Riastradh: 2. evaluate (+ 6 1.25) 21:05:04 Riastradh, and one last question, does the IN-SKIP-LIST iterator handle the case when I want to modify the skip-list in the middle of the loop to add new values to it? That is, will it continue taking from the top, even if the top value has changed in the original skip list? 21:05:07 in applicative order the first evaluation would be the arguments ? 21:05:07 You forgot a step: substitute 6 for A and 5/4 for B, and reduce the question to the evaluation of (+ (* 6 6) (* 5/4 5/4)). 21:05:16 arcfide, lisppaste, please. 21:05:22 opss 21:05:35 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@pool-98-108-121-142.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["aunt jemima is the devil!"] 21:06:17 george_, so, with the example of (TEST 0 (P)), what steps does a normal-order evaluator take? 21:06:41 arcfide pasted "IN-FXVECTOR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67579 21:07:19 arcfide annotated #67579 with "Module Declaration" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67579#1 21:07:48 arcfide, I don't know why this is any different from IN-SKIP-LIST. 21:08:23 Riastradh, I don't know either, and that's why I was a bit confused. 21:08:31 Are you sure it is any different? 21:08:32 Riastradh: first evaluate the procedure test 21:08:55 george_, good. Now what? 21:09:05 -!- drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:13 In the skip-list module, I do not include any foof-loop stuff, and no implicit exports except for those defined in the skip-list file. It works in that case, but not the other. 21:09:25 Riastradh: second evaluate the procedure (p) 21:09:33 george_, nope! 21:09:49 george_, first evaluate the procedure TEST. Then substitute the operands for the formal parameters in the body of TEST, and reduce the computation to the body of TEST. 21:10:03 Riastradh: now i get ir 21:10:05 it* 21:10:07 If you do that substitution, what do you get for the body of TEST (with substitutions)? 21:10:51 Riastradh: you will get (p) 21:10:59 No, you'll get an IF expression. 21:12:03 ok ... but i calculated that already 21:13:04 Nope. 21:13:12 What expressions will you substitute for X and Y, in a normal-order evaluator? 21:13:35 0 and (p) 21:13:54 So what do you get if you substitute 0 for X and (P) for Y in the body of TEST? 21:14:01 What whole expression, that is. 21:14:24 (p) 21:14:36 -!- Elly|spare [n=pyxystyx@xornofxorn.xen.prgmr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:45 minion: advice for george_ 21:14:46 george_: #11954: If your function is written correctly, it will handle an empty array the same way as a nonempty array. 21:15:28 Elly [n=pyxy@PHYREXIA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 21:16:33 Riastradh: so in normal order i get (p) , and in applicative order i will get a loop of (p) ? 21:16:48 george_: try again... 21:17:05 sladegen: ehehe he oposite ? 21:17:15 sladegen: the opposite * 21:17:39 write here what you'll get after substituting 0 and (p) in test... 21:17:56 -!- lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.92] has quit ["used jmIrc"] 21:18:12 george_, what's the body of TEST, *without* any substitution? 21:18:34 Riastradh, in the IN-SKIP-LIST macro, there doesn't seem to be anything like %IN-VECTOR, could this be the reason? 21:19:04 ohh now i get it ... in normal order i would get a loop of (p), but in applicative order i will get nothing , and the program would loop forever 21:19:08 arcfide, you aren't importing all of foof-loop. 21:19:16 george_, can you please answer the question I asked? 21:19:17 Riastradh, I'm sorry? 21:19:46 (if (= x 0) 0 y) 21:20:05 george_, now substitute 0 for X and (P) for Y, but don't reduce the expression -- I want to see another IF expression. 21:20:43 drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #scheme 21:20:47 arcfide, sorry, please disregard my last message. The expansion of the IN-SKIP-LIST macro, if I recall correctly, doesn't actually contain any names from foof-loop. 21:20:47 (if (= 0 0) 0 (p)) 21:21:41 george_, what is the next step in evaluating that? 21:22:18 change (p) for the result of (p) 21:22:26 Riastradh, Okay, Makes sense now. Thanks. 21:22:29 No, george_. 21:22:32 How do you evaluate an IF expression? 21:22:52 (This, in fact, is no different between normal-order and applicative-order evaluation!) 21:23:09 well the result will be (p) 21:23:14 No. 21:23:25 How do you evaluate an IF expression, in general? (IF ) 21:23:35 0 !!! 21:23:36 *sladegen* smacks george_ with a CL manual. 21:23:41 No. 21:23:42 How do you evaluate an IF expression, in general? (IF ) 21:24:14 if condition is true than consequent else alternative 21:24:18 For example, (IF #T 'FNORD 42) does not evaluate to 0. 21:24:54 FNORD 21:25:04 george_, well, that's just rearranging it into a different notation. I was hoping for an answer in a complete English sentence such as `Evaluate the condition, and if its value is true, evaluate the consequent branch; otherwise evaluate the alternative branch.' 21:26:14 ok 21:27:28 Riastradh: you have 15 minutes to sharpen your Portuguese into full luterature-grade sentences ;) 21:27:29 arcfide pasted "Can IN-SKIP-LIST do this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/67580 21:27:38 Riastradh, ^^^. 21:27:39 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:54 sladegen, sure, I'll have a shot at some luterature! 21:28:01 a-s [i=root@93.112.65.128] has joined #scheme 21:29:09 sladegen: anh ? 21:29:11 Riastradh, the above paste is just an attempt to simplify the problem of looping functionality to its minimum. The actual problem differs slightly. 21:29:48 george_: what? 21:29:51 -!- drdo [n=user@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:03 arcfide, (loop ((for element (in-list (skip-list->list db)))) ...) 21:30:04 I never knew y'all were so luterary. 21:30:08 sladegen: what do you mean by luterature ? 21:30:33 literature... typo. blech! 21:30:54 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-90-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:31:03 sladegen: that because i have lots of typos ? 21:31:27 Riastradh, this doesn't maintain the queue priority. Essentially, I'm just wondering if there is another (better?) way than to use a [LET TOP (SKIP-LIST/DELETE-MIN! DB)] clause. 21:31:50 george_, sladegen is poking fun at me for requesting complete English sentences. 21:32:22 arcfide, sorry, I didn't read fully. If you want that, you'll have to define an ordering on your elements so that that works. 21:32:37 Riastradh: but what he meant about "portuguese" ? 21:33:02 george_, probably he pulled it out of thin air as a language he expected me not to know. 21:33:26 Riastradh: hehe i speak portuguese as first language 21:33:44 george_, or perhaps he guessed based on your IP address that you are in Portugal. 21:33:54 brazil... 21:33:55 Riastradh, or Brazil. 21:33:59 Riastradh: ehehe i will forbbid my ip 21:34:06 sladegen, blast your speedy fingers. 21:34:23 george_: good luck with that. 21:34:37 george_: you can't hide your accent. :-) 21:34:55 Hrm. 21:34:56 use a typing actor 21:35:03 arcfide: ehehe just when i speaks ... 21:35:45 I wonder . . . ought a sentence in IRC addressed to someone contain a capitalized sentence, or should the nickname be considered as the first statement of the sentence? 21:36:10 arcfide, that depends on whether you use a comma or a colon. 21:36:18 Riastradh, I was thinking the same thing. 21:37:30 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 21:37:49 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 21:39:04 Daemmerung: BTW, Robby looked into the profj thing, and was able to reduce most of the initial overhead. 21:39:34 Riastradh: hey ... i will paste bin mine conclusion 21:43:49 http://fpaste.org/paste/6682 21:45:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:07 Riastradh: is that correct? 21:45:52 george_, yes, pretty much. 21:46:06 Riastradh: thanks a lot =) 21:50:59 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:05 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:06 ventonegro [i=alex@189-94-56-72.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #scheme 21:58:36 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.65.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:06 isn't the result of (= a b) , with a different from b , equals to 0 ? ptl returns #f 22:06:22 No, the result is #F. 22:10:14 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:10:46 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:12:28 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 22:16:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:21:11 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:55 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:14 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 22:22:29 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 22:22:36 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 22:26:01 eli: was profj the primary offender? 22:28:34 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 22:33:13 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:35:06 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055162.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:32 why? (define a 3) ... (define b 4) ... (+ 10 (and a b)) ... returns 14 ? 22:38:22 What does (AND A B) yield? 22:38:36 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 22:38:39 should return true ? 22:38:57 Well, it yields a true value, if all of the operands evaluate to true values. 22:39:04 But #T is not the only true value. 22:39:11 For instance, 3 is a true value. 22:39:18 In fact, any value that is not #F is a true value. 22:40:15 Riastradh: i didn't get it 22:40:48 george_: AND returns the first #F given to it, or the last arg if no #F was given 22:40:49 Riastradh: if you sum #T to 10 ... we should get an error , don't we ? 22:40:58 That's right, but (AND A B) doesn't yield #T. 22:41:06 What does (AND A B) yield? 22:41:13 Daemmerung: profj was about half of the overhead that the tools had, and robby made about 75% of that go away. 22:41:59 Daemmerung: (It's more than half if you consider the tools that are still useful in a general way.) 22:42:15 if a b are positive numbers then the result would be b 22:42:42 if a or b is 0 than would return 0 ? 22:43:08 false is 0 and the rest is true ? 22:43:50 The only false value is #F. 22:43:54 0 is not #F; 0 is considered true. 22:44:00 rudybot: eval (if 0 "0 is true!" "0 is false!") 22:44:04 That is, (IF 0 ) reduces to the value of . 22:44:04 ventonegro: ; Value: "0 is true!" 22:44:09 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:31 Riastradh: any number is true ? 22:46:48 -!- ciskje [n=francesc@host208-202-dynamic.17-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 22:48:00 ventonegro: so any number is true ? 22:48:08 george_: indeed 22:48:31 ventonegro: in c++ 0 is false , right ? 22:48:37 yes 22:48:47 very 22:48:48 as Riastradh said, only one value in Scheme is considered false 22:48:58 any non 0 number in C or C++ is true i think 22:49:14 Jarvellis: yes. even negative ones 22:49:17 #f is #f, anything else is not #f. and anything else than #f is #t :) 22:49:17 ok... just got confused with sintax 22:51:30 is SICP a good way of learning scheme? 22:51:31 semantics 22:51:45 Jarvellis: yes 22:52:15 Jarvellis: i on first chapter still =/ 22:52:18 meybe 22:52:20 ventonegro, good, i'm just starting it because it looked interesing 22:52:52 george_, me too, i know very little about programing and do not expect to progress quickly 22:53:41 Jarvellis: if you want to compare the resolutions of exercises , just say it 22:54:10 george_, thanks, i may well take you up on that 22:54:24 Jarvellis: i don't have much time to study ... and i have a bad experience with c++ 22:54:32 it may be a bit tough, if you get stuck, don't hesitate to ask 22:54:51 Jarvellis: download the lectures ... it helps a lot 22:55:00 i am still trying to decide if i prefer scheme or CL 22:55:11 george_, what format are they in? 22:55:23 Jarvellis: start with scheme ... i am aiming for CL too 22:55:36 pcl is good for CL 22:55:46 very easy read 22:56:09 Jarvellis: mp4 / mpg 22:56:11 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ 22:56:21 i was playing with pcl for a bit, but it seemed very emacs centric 22:56:36 pcl's a book 22:56:37 :) 22:56:58 i know, Practical Common Lisp 22:57:51 i am on PLT ...is easier than emacs ... but i will migrate to emacs soon 22:58:13 emacs is just an editor, though 22:58:14 i hate emacs with a passion you cannot ecen comprehend 22:58:54 Jarvellis: i don't like it too ...=/ , someday i will like , i hope 22:58:54 emacs learning curve is steep, but it's worth the trouble 22:59:01 ah, but emacs is /not/ just an editor, it is also three irc clients, a couple of email agents, at least one web browser 22:59:23 Jarvellis: game plataform 22:59:40 george_, yeah, i meant to finish on elipses... 23:00:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:00:05 quite right, quite right, what I mean to say is that emacs is an editor and therefore you can separate it from your study of a programming language 23:00:10 Jarvellis: is eclipse good for CL ? 23:00:30 jroes, fair point, well made 23:00:42 george_, not a clue, i use nano or kate 23:01:11 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 23:02:17 what is false in scheme ? only the character #f ? 23:02:40 O_O 23:02:49 #f is not a character 23:02:57 what is #f ? 23:03:03 #\f is the character f 23:03:03 #F is the false value. 23:03:06 It serves no other purpose. 23:03:26 i meant the "#f" ... i don't know how to call that 23:03:41 symbol? 23:03:43 It has no other properties than that it answers true to BOOLEAN? and serves as the false value in IF. 23:03:46 No, it's not a symbol. 23:03:48 rudybot: eval (symbol? #f) 23:03:49 Riastradh: ; Value: #f 23:03:52 rudybot: eval (boolean? #f) 23:03:53 Riastradh: ; Value: #t 23:03:57 It is the boolean false value; that's all. 23:04:14 k 23:04:22 thanks 23:04:27 ah, symbol has a more specific meaning in scheme than in english, sorry 23:04:30 but in syntax-case don't forget to write it as #'#f 23:04:41 -!- crathman [n=chatzill@cpe-24-175-84-224.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]"] 23:04:55 foof: nice point 23:05:47 or maybe #`#'#,#f to be safe 23:06:05 please explain? 23:06:06 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.102] has joined #scheme 23:06:22 *foof* is just making fun of syntax-case 23:06:33 sarahbot: syntax-case? 23:06:33 I've heard syntax-case is impressive in the manner of a particularly unsightly skin disease. 23:06:35 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 23:08:29 sarahbot: say it ain't so! 23:08:30 Ummm...."it is not so" 23:08:44 sarahbot: cool! 23:08:45 : ) 23:09:09 foof: "#f" equals to #'#f ? 23:09:10 sarahbot: where did you lose your nose? 23:09:11 Near Los Angeles......A community called "Rancho Palos Verdes". I dont think you know about it....Its pretty small. 23:09:15 george_, no, disregard foof. 23:09:26 george_, don't worry about it un{til,less} you encounter SYNTAX-CASE. 23:10:05 sarahbot: ooooookey, i won't ask further. 23:10:05 That is a very original thought....are you a poet? 23:10:10 Riastradh: ok 23:10:20 rudybot: eval (= #f #'#f) 23:10:20 Jarvellis: error: =: expects type as 1st argument, given: #f; other arguments were: # 23:10:32 whoops 23:10:55 foof: it's not `syntax-case' you tried to make fun of (poorly, IMO). 23:11:32 eli he was making fun of me 23:12:07 T; 23:13:00 how to test equality of not-numbers? 23:13:24 r5rs eq? egv? equal? 23:13:41 ok 23:13:45 One name at a time, sladegen. 23:14:07 specbot: r5rs eqv? 23:14:07 http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_210 23:14:08 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/3ekcm2 23:14:19 raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has joined #scheme 23:14:33 Jarvellis: there is more... actually like string=? etc... 23:14:44 rudybot: eval (eqv? #f #'#f) 23:14:44 Jarvellis: ; Value: #f 23:14:55 "equality" is a turing complete problem. 23:15:44 bah! this is all beyond me, i'm going to sleep, thanks for the info all 23:16:12 specbot: eval (values 'eq? 'eqv? 'equal?) 23:16:34 *sladegen* hides. 23:16:52 Welcome back, sarahbot. 23:16:52 Have you ever been to Europe? 23:25:36 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:33:12 sorbet: is that where you went? 23:33:12 Yup....thats where. 23:33:19 sorbet: interesting! 23:33:19 Would you like to know more? 23:33:26 sorbet: not really. 23:33:27 I understand....you would like to know less. For real. 23:33:44 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 23:33:47 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 23:38:57 i woneder: can macros be expanded completely at compile time? don't they need the actual environment which is active when the macro is defined and/or expanded? 23:40:32 Macros *are* expanded completely at compile-time. 23:40:34 when expanded at compile time, they use the environment at hand 23:40:49 hmmm 23:42:43 ventonegro: which is the environment 'at hand' ? 23:43:49 The lexical environment, which is fixed at compile time. 23:44:32 elmex: the macro expander is just another program 23:44:37 hmmm, so the compilation phase alrady kind of tracks the lexical environment, and determines from that which identifiers to rename? 23:45:27 elmex: so when the macros are expanded, they are expanded in the environment of the macro expander 23:46:16 hmm 23:46:18 chandler: the environmenr cannot be fixed at compile-time, otherwise there wouldn't be the need to run any scheme programd 23:46:49 That statement doesn't make any sense to me. 23:47:07 chandler: what's the environment? 23:47:26 i believe chandler was talking abotu the structure of the lexical environment 23:48:05 the bindings are lexically scoped, yes 23:48:39 but let's not confuse this with the term 'environment' 23:49:36 biosphere? protecting environment is very important! macrothemore... 23:51:31 hm, what i'm wondering about is whether macro expansion already needs to know more about the environment of the program it's expanding than just the lexical structure 23:54:20 well, you program the macro expander, so you know if it needs the compile-time environment or the run-time environment 23:55:02 if your macro expander uses a global variable *some-var*, then it cannot be used at compile-time 23:55:15 at the REPL, maybe 23:55:52 hmm 23:56:54 take for instance Meroon, usually one must load it into the compiler before its own compilation 23:57:20 hm 23:57:26 dont know it 23:57:47 it's an OO system for Scheme 23:58:21 ah 00:00:25 Debolaz [n=debolaz@nat.andersberle.com] has joined #scheme 00:00:43 ventonegro: but macro expansion does not need to happen at run-time, or does it? 00:00:52 nope 00:01:18 ok 00:01:40 i guess that cleared up some of the mess in my head 00:01:56 Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:19 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-10.html 00:02:36 Halfway down the page for exercise 1.1, I'm trying to figure out what the point of this exercise is 00:03:33 Logite: i guess testing whether the reader understands basic expressions 00:04:07 reiterating through the semantics of basic expressions 00:05:32 Logite: does that answer your question? 00:07:04 I don't quite understand what I'm supposed to do with it 00:07:12 Do I look at it? 00:07:29 yes, look at it, and guess the result value of each expression 00:07:38 Alright 00:07:59 I'm somewhat confused on how to have Scheme evaulate the first expression using the variable a and b 00:08:06 It says b isn't defined... 00:08:34 which expression do you mean? 00:08:41 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 00:08:51 (+ a b (* a b)) 00:09:01 (define a 3) 00:09:03 (define b (+ a 1)) 00:09:09 those expressions define it 00:09:12 i did that 00:09:20 i put in 00:09:27 (+ a b (* a b)) 00:09:30 er 00:09:46 (define a 3) 00:09:46 (define b (+ a 1)) 00:09:46 (+ a b (* a b)) 00:09:54 http://www.ta-sa.org/files/txt/a7fed00b2250d0500619d7649ba5cc88.txt 00:10:24 putting the expressions in a read-eval-print-interpreter gives the right result 00:10:56 I'm using MIT/GNU Scheme... 00:13:22 if it has a REPL it should yield the same results 00:13:45 It's still telling me B is unbound 00:13:54 B or b ? 00:13:57 b* 00:14:04 hmm 00:14:09 I don't think it's an issue with the code itself 00:14:21 I haven't coded before, so I may be running the interpreter wrong 00:14:33 how do you run it? 00:15:11 Well, there are multiple ways to evaluate in MIT/GNU I believe 00:15:20 Ctrl+X Ctrl+E 00:15:25 or Ctrl + Esc + Z 00:15:40 Logite: when i run the repl of PLT scheme i get this: (i typed in the input in the lines starting with '>' ) : http://www.ta-sa.org/files/txt/2ceef20d25e153ad1a413f0614f29558.txt 00:17:05 i sadly don't know about MIT scheme ;-/ 00:17:47 also i gotta go to bed, maybe someone else here knows more about mit scheme 00:17:48 gn8 00:17:49 I'm on ubuntu 00:17:55 Hmm 00:26:46 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180064073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:57 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 00:38:53 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 00:47:18 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-1-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 00:48:49 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-55-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:48:51 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 00:56:15 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:56:32 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 00:57:35 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 01:01:18 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:04:53 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 01:24:55 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 01:29:44 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit ["rebooting ERC"] 01:30:54 is good to read "the little schemer" after sicp ? 01:30:57 -!- nanothief [n=kvirc@203.94.189.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:31:22 or the little schemer is easier , and don't make sense to do that 01:31:48 it would make more sense to read it before 01:32:14 how about the seasoned schemer ? 01:32:17 but it's a nice little book, and I'd say it's worth reading at any time 01:33:10 I haven't read that -- can't really say 01:33:52 if you can find them in a library (and the reasoned schemer) then definitely pick them up -- TLS at least is a pretty quick read and I think it's worth it to see how it's presented 01:33:54 because i want to read all book of the series , and don't make sense to start with the second one 01:34:18 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:34:55 indeed, I think you should start at the beginning 01:42:14 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 01:45:23 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-25-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 01:46:17 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-1-16.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:47:45 jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:48:30 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 01:50:52 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:54:44 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:30 OceanSpray [n=karl@WOOGABOOGA.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 01:58:14 OceanSpray: WOOGABOOGA? 01:59:09 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-088-068-096-161.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 02:02:37 annodomini [n=lambda@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:10 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 02:09:31 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 02:26:38 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 02:27:31 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:35:30 mejja, what? 02:36:34 I believe he said "WOOGABOOGA". 02:37:06 foof: you around? 02:37:58 npe: happyou tomorrow! 02:38:51 foof: lol... I'm forgetting Japanese, I thought you said "happy you tomorrow?" until I realized you meant  02:38:59 cool what are you presenting? 02:39:14 kaspyanand [n=vishal@59.182.78.116] has joined #scheme 02:39:32 hi i need help 02:39:50 Riastradh: you going to be in the NE area over thanksgiving? 02:39:51 The new CRF version of my tagger. 02:39:55 (define (even x) 02:39:55 (if (= (/ x 2) 0) 02:39:55 (0) 02:39:55 (2))) 02:40:01 foof: you made a CRF version? 02:40:01 running this i get error 02:40:03 cool. 02:40:07 how's it working/ 02:40:08 ? 02:40:12 procedure application: expected procedure, given: 2 (no arguments) 02:40:18 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:45 kaspyanand: use a pastebin for your code. 02:41:00 k 02:41:08 kaspyanand: you have too many parens. 02:41:32 by putting 2 in parens you're telling scheme that 2 is a procedure. 02:41:52 k so i should just say 2 02:41:58 yes 02:42:13 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 02:42:58 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:04 k my new definition is here 02:45:05 http://pastebin.com/mf4c84d 02:45:20 confusing thing is putting o and 2 in consecutive lines 02:45:38 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-19-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:45:55 it means interpreter evaluates on its own that 0 and 2 are for different conditions 02:46:42 odd way to define 'even' 02:47:00 foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 02:47:03 rudybot: eval (define (even? x) (zero? (remainder x 2))) 02:47:10 rudybot: eval (even? 10) 02:47:10 offby1: ; Value: #t 02:47:12 rudybot: eval (even? 9) 02:47:13 offby1: ; Value: #f 02:47:15 rudybot: eval (even? 2/11) 02:47:15 offby1: error: remainder: expects type as 1st argument, given: 2/11; other arguments were: 2 02:47:21 rudybot: eval (even? 'frotz) 02:47:22 offby1: error: remainder: expects type as 1st argument, given: frotz; other arguments were: 2 02:47:24 stupid emacs 02:48:23 npe: anyway, the CRF implementation isn't actually finished yet, but I'm presenting on the issues I'm handling that introduce word-boundary ambiguity into English, and on the features I'm using 02:48:48 I had no idea I had to present at the end of the summer - I was using the summer to work on startup ideas. 02:49:24 lol... is this for the gasshuku? 02:49:36 No, this is my M2 presentation. 02:49:49 After this, just the thesis. 02:49:59 cool. 02:50:07 you psyched about being an almost graduate? 02:50:17 Gasshuku is Thursday-Friday. 02:50:29 awwww... I miss you guys. 02:51:08 Well... I went back to school to broaden my possibilities, and am now overwhelmed by the number of possibilities :/ 02:51:19 npe, if by the `the NE area' you mean New England, then yes -- but where in New England, I'm not sure yet; I could be anywhere in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine, or Vermont. 02:51:22 Get drunk and beat folks at Mahjong for me. lol.... 02:51:42 Riastradh: I'm going to be in Concord NH, and plan on going to boston sometime. 02:51:43 -!- kaspyanand [n=vishal@59.182.78.116] has left #scheme 02:52:09 if you're up for a beer/coffee/drink of choice I'll send you a mail when I get there. 02:52:31 foof: what are you thinking now? 02:52:47 btw have seen the stuff about transition communities hitting Japan? 02:53:16 I think a transition community in Gifu would be pretty cool, if the world economy doesn't implode in the meantime. 02:53:29 foof: by thinking I mean possibilities. 02:53:47 What's a transition community? 02:54:15 foof: it's a place where a bunch of hippies get together and try to minimize the number of food miles and travel miles to make a community work. 02:54:55 so the idea is to make a self sufficient community in a rural area where it's easy to walk and bike around. 02:55:00 and most of the food is local. 02:55:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transition_Towns 02:56:11 Do you get to sing songs together? 02:56:22 "Kumbiyah", I'm guessing 02:56:33 kilimanjaro: only when we're eating tofu out the skulls of dead conservatives. 02:56:44 on the burned out husk of their SUV. 02:57:23 A bright future, brought to you by progressive authoritarians :) 02:58:39 kilimanjaro: you must have missed the current round of talking points. All liberals are fascists, Jonah Golberg says so. 02:59:24 foof: btw hippies have appropriated hula hoops. 02:59:35 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 02:59:36 and hippie style has made a major comeback in the states. 02:59:53 it's pretty freaky. 03:00:08 Among aging boomers? 03:00:22 kilimanjaro: nope, young hipsters. I guess they're tired of being emo. 03:00:24 I'm a university student at a pretty liberal school and I haven't seen many hippies 03:00:36 Man, the presidential debate was depressing. 03:00:44 xwl` [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 03:00:45 Why did you bother watching? 03:00:49 You knew it would be depressing and stupid. 03:00:52 kilimanjaro: these are the too cool for school LSU, UT, A&M crowd. 03:01:09 As a high-schooler in southern california, I've seen my share of kids with hippie-ish dress. 03:01:11 npe, I go to UT 03:01:34 kilimanjaro: lol... UT is crawling with hippies. 03:01:36 OceanSpray, that's just fashion, I could dress like a gorilla but it doesn't mean a whole lot, except maybe that I am a jackass 03:01:40 where do you live? 03:01:50 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:50 -!- xwl` [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:53 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-25-91.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:26 npe, pretty far off campus, Oak Hill region, basically off 290 west near where it splits from 71 (aka "the Y") 03:02:49 maybe it is because I spend all my time at the math/physics/astronomy building 03:02:54 21st, Neuces and Pearl and crawling with hippies. 03:03:09 kilimanjaro: you should have gone to ACL. 03:03:18 It was hippie a go go. 03:03:49 There were young ladies in very little (tiedye) clothes with hula hoops all day. 03:04:08 yesterday an especially amorous couple decided to be intimate in the port-o-potty. 03:04:30 It's not hippy unless the free love comes my way 03:04:31 It was rocking side to side, so people started filming it on their phones. 03:04:47 They tried to be all sly and the guy came out first. 03:04:57 To a standing ovation lol... 03:05:20 he went and hid in the corner and called his gf(who was still in the port-o-potty) on his cell. 03:05:34 then she scurried out, but no one was cruel enough to make fun of her. 03:06:33 Ewww... how could you stand the smell? 03:06:50 foof: don't ask me. I wasn't the one doing it. and there were 80000 people there. 03:07:05 I went into a port-o on friday and it was almost full. 03:07:17 so the ones on saturday must have been especially foul. 03:07:28 I couldn't use one without breathing through my mouth. 03:07:49 Please... 03:08:06 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 03:08:19 mejja: you are an expert on living with excrement? 03:08:54 npe, since it is social hour, are you a student at UT? 03:09:24 kilimanjaro: nope, I go to school in Japan with foof. I'm just living on the UT campus during my internship. 03:09:44 Ahh 03:09:46 I live with bunches of hippies, some clothed, some not. 03:10:04 Are you in a coop or something? 03:10:10 the other day there was a dude walking down 21st street just wearing an apron. 03:10:31 One of the houses has an kitchen with clear windows and they cook naked too. 03:10:34 UT is funny. 03:11:31 kilimanjaro: yup. 03:11:32 I basically never do anything on campus except for class, library, and on occasion visit the crown & anchor 03:12:19 kilimanjaro: No spider house? 03:12:43 I don't drink coffee 03:12:59 or tea, and most of the vegetarian food I eat has meat mixed in it 03:13:28 kilimanjaro: The spider house has beer and mixed drinks too. 03:14:49 ahh 03:15:26 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:12 Well I'm not usually on campus anyways, I live almost 12 miles away and I hate driving 03:16:39 kilimanjaro: you take the bus? are you an undergrad? 03:17:05 yea I'm a senior, and I don't take the bus because there really isn't any route convenient for me 03:18:15 If I go between 6:00-8:00am northbound or 4:00-6:00pm southbound there is a flyer that doesn't make any serious detours, but at any other time it probably takes me 75-90 minutes to get from my house to campus or vice versa 03:18:29 kilimanjaro: doh... I love the UT buses. Pickle bus! 03:18:53 Piece of cake to get to work every day. only one stop. 03:18:54 The UT buses are great, the rest of capital metro is mediocre, and I happen to live in one of the worst parts of town for mass transit 03:19:29 I used to live in the Dallas area and they had a light rail system that was pretty convenient for major commutes 03:19:44 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.208.73] has joined #scheme 03:19:48 Hey everyone. 03:19:52 kilimanjaro: doh. well if you stay a senior for 10 more years you can use the Austin commuter rail? 03:20:00 Are you north or south austing? 03:20:06 way south 03:20:13 there is no plan to put light rail in near where I live 03:20:22 I was on slaughter today. 03:20:39 how much farther are you? 03:20:40 I live exactly that far south, and then go west until you are about to leave city limits 03:21:28 yeah that's a bitch for the bus. 03:23:37 Part of it is because it's the stereotypical suburbs and everyone just drives a car, so there isn't a lot of demand for bus routes 03:24:04 What are you doing in your internship? 03:24:10 HPC stuff. 03:25:29 foof: http://i38.tinypic.com/9sfgq1.jpg 03:25:29 You work at pickle? Are you affiliated with the CAM/ICES program at all? 03:26:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:26:26 kilimanjaro: I'm not affiliated with Pickle, I do stuff for IBM. 03:26:42 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 03:26:44 ahh 03:29:35 heh 03:30:24 paganini123 [n=chatzill@adsl-10-148-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #scheme 03:30:50 -!- paganini123 [n=chatzill@adsl-10-148-163.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:31:27 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:58 foof: I love it, the republicans are imploding. 03:32:15 freerepublic is a mass of self hatred and recriminations these days. 03:32:23 I also registered to vote in texas. 03:32:37 so I can pee into the wind. 03:33:02 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 03:33:05 I'm from a swing state so I really need to send in for my absentee ballot. 03:34:01 -!- luz [n=davids@201.29.205.110] has quit ["Client exiting"] 03:39:05 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:43:06 foof: lol... if Obama wins PA the republicans really will cry and tear their hair out. 03:43:10 go for it. 03:43:22 ttyl guys, need to shower and get ready for work tomorrow. 03:44:40 -!- ventonegro [i=alex@189-94-56-72.3g.claro.net.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:57 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 03:51:09 If McCain wins I'll cry and tear my hair out 03:55:53 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime"] 03:57:48 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.200.116.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:05 foof` [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-157.naist.jp] has joined #scheme 04:06:05 -!- foof [n=user@dn157-046.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:06:14 -!- foof` is now known as foof 04:06:33 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 04:07:44 What's babby? 04:21:13 No, it's "how is babby formed?" 04:22:36 -!- linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:26:26 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176205097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:47 tjafk2 [n=timj@e176204202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:27:13 linas [n=linas@h-67-100-217-179.dllatx37.covad.net] has joined #scheme 04:44:11 How come I evaluate each define statement separately before it'll recognize it? 04:45:29 Anybody know anything about MIT/GNU Scheme? 04:51:05 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.188.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:52:35 Why don't you simply load the hole file with (load "file")? 04:52:58 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:57:18 What 04:57:29 I type in 3 lines of code, 2 are describe lines 04:58:02 I try to run it and it won't solve the last line unless I run the 2 describe lines seperately first 05:01:33 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:30 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 05:10:22 vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has joined #scheme 05:16:34 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 05:17:05 I'm looking for OSKit know-how and it looks like PLT scheme is one of the only serious users. has anyone perchance built an OSKit-based mzscheme lately? I'd like some advice 05:21:14 logite: you might need to wrap them in a 'begin' so it executes them in sequence 05:21:53 -!- raikov [n=igr@203.181.243.11] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:33 Oh, interesting 05:27:20 lukego_: the OSKit build has not been working for a really long time now. IIRC, it worked in version 1xx or even before that. 05:27:39 OSKit itself doesn't build for me, which is unfortunate because it's exactly what I need right now 05:28:10 Well, yeah, you need OSKit in working order first. 05:28:30 right. so I'm scouring the internet for an OSKit user and PLT Scheme is my only lead :) 05:29:20 But my guess is that even if/once you get that, you'll need to do some work to get mzscheme to use it. How bad that would be is a question I cannot answer. 05:29:51 But the readme file (in the src directory) still mentions what should be done, so I suppose that the hooks are still in place. 05:34:07 What does #f mean? 05:34:25 False :) 05:34:28 Nevermind 05:39:20 levi: No, I mean what does that refer to? 05:41:37 how foof get pragnent 05:42:13 How indeed? Lord knows I've been trying... 05:54:03 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 06:01:33 minion: thwap to sarahbot 06:01:33 sarahbot: look at thwap: THWAP! http://www.angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif and http://www.angryflower.com/itsits.gif (see also: http://www.unmutual.info/misc/sb_itsits.mp3 ) 06:01:33 Oh.......really? 06:01:34 Sorry my eye is not attached right now. Thanks for that web address. Ummmm....... That is a very original thought....are you a poet? Huh....Intriguing Huh....Really? What kind of food do you like? Ummmm....... Mmmm.....really? How do you like the weather in Atlanta? Mmmm......... 06:02:43 foof: It refers to a silly Yahoo Answers query that was trolled by Something Awful, and later a flash movie was made about it. 06:04:36 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.14.208.73] has quit ["Sleep"] 06:06:26 elmex [n=elmex@e180066140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 06:09:27 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:32 -!- jlongster [n=user@c-68-59-187-95.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:12:28 *foof* is always behind the times on memes 06:12:49 It was years before I knew what "lol" stood for. 06:13:11 llamas ovulate languidly 06:13:30 Do they now? 06:14:19 yup, extremely so, that's why there's a TLA for it 06:17:14 Who has something to inspire me to become an awesome coder 06:18:11 Logite, if you do not become an awsome coder, then Vista will be representative of the future. 06:18:52 Also, i will shoot a puppy. 06:19:16 *hangs self* 06:19:20 too much pressure! 06:19:29 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 06:19:46 What, you don't have any awesome examples for me 06:20:02 if you are super awesome you can make a lot of money and then buy a Tesla 06:20:08 then you can ride around in your Tesla 06:20:08 As much as I'm ENJOYING structure and interpretation of computer programs *rolls eyes* 06:20:30 This book is such a mind bender 06:20:39 I can't imagine getting to chapter FIVE, jesus 06:20:52 I've been on the first 2 sections for about 3 days now 06:21:16 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [] 06:22:11 How hard is it to code a simple 2d sidescroller game 06:22:56 very 06:23:00 It's almost impossible. 06:23:14 I've heard some Tibetan monks can do it. 06:23:45 how about a 3d space combat game with proper newtonian physics? 06:23:54 That's much easier. 06:24:10 Just plug in the 3 laws and everything works out. 06:24:31 Oh you guys are SO witty 06:24:45 We studied in Tibet to become so. 06:25:05 ahahaha, studied in tibet, you CRACK ME UP 06:25:12 i failed half the modules though 06:25:49 the space combat game was a serious question though 06:25:59 Logite: Seriously, you need to relax and go with the silliness :) 06:26:32 Just enjoy the coding and skill will come in time. 06:26:55 Well I haven't started coding yet 06:27:17 All I've been doing is reading this first chapter of SICP 06:27:34 Mind numbingly so 06:28:43 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-9-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 06:31:57 Kinks_ [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 06:33:04 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has joined #scheme 06:33:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 06:34:52 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 06:38:26 (if (and (> b a) (< b (* a b))) 06:38:27     b 06:38:27     a) 06:38:34 (define a 3) 06:38:34 (define b (+ a 1)) 06:38:39 I'm not understanding that first section there 06:38:45 Can someone clarify it for me? 06:39:28 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 06:42:31 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-19-35.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:59 if (b > a) and (b < (a * b)) then { b } else { a } 06:43:03 warning, i don't know scheme 06:43:25 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:44:50 Prefix notation gets me again! Thanks :) 06:53:23 huh? 06:55:54 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0548AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:56:21 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:30 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 07:25:55 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 07:28:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:35:49 -!- Logite [n=logite@c-67-180-120-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #scheme 07:41:29 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 07:46:31 -!- tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-9-85.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:02 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0548AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:03:07 -!- foof [n=user@isa7-dhcp-116-157.naist.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:18:00 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has joined #scheme 08:23:08 Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 08:25:26 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:27:02 synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has joined #scheme 08:35:57 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:36:37 mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has joined #scheme 08:40:36 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:57:20 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:44 -!- sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:20:55 does anyone know of an easier syntax-case implemenation than that of the papers published by Dybvig, Hieb and Bruggeman (1993) and Oscar Waddell (1999, which is referenced to by r6rs-lib, and which references the implementation in the paper by Dybvig, Hieb and Bruggeman) 09:20:57 ? 09:21:37 couldn't find much at library.readscheme.org 09:23:08 sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 09:24:29 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:14 mediogre [n=mediogre@88.147.167.157] has joined #scheme 09:46:00 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:47 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:08 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 10:12:02 -!- sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:41 kohwj [n=di@bb116-15-145-147.singnet.com.sg] has joined #scheme 10:25:49 greetings 10:26:28 yo 10:29:40 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.150.203.bredband.tre.se] has joined #scheme 10:35:00 -!- nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:48:11 Archvile [n=Archvill@59.Red-83-50-142.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:48:11 -!- Archville [n=Archvill@59.Red-83-50-142.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:51:55 sstrickl [n=user@nomad.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 10:57:10 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:04:28 hmmm 11:04:56 seems lik psyntax and the aziz implementation of syntax-case are alternatives to the one described in the paper linked by r6rs-lib, interesting 11:05:20 -!- Axioplase_ is now known as Axioplase 11:06:04 what's the most comprehensive scheme implementation? 11:06:13 is it chicken? it's at the top of a google search 11:06:16 thats a good question 11:06:28 i always considered chicken to be quite lightweight 11:06:33 and bigloo looks bigger 11:07:08 ooh.. bigloo looks nice 11:07:17 kohwj: but i guess it depends on what you mean with 'comprehensive' 11:07:35 comprehensive as in r5rs compatible, or as in 'lots of practical stuff and libs to use' 11:07:58 (i guess most are r5rs compatible) 11:07:59 'lots of practical stuff and libs to use' 11:08:43 hehe, i don't have a good overview too, but bigloo seems to come with a lot of stuff. but chicken has a big repository of contributed 'eggs' 11:09:03 ah, i see 11:09:34 wow, that's a lot of eggs 11:10:10 but with regard to implemented SRFIs plt scheme seems to look big too: http://practical-scheme.net/wiliki/schemexref.cgi?PLT-Scheme 11:10:15 at least the website isn't named "cheeseshop". seriously, who names scheme implementations? 11:10:27 the implementors ;) 11:10:34 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-168.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #scheme 11:10:41 heh 11:12:44 thanks for the pointers! :) 11:14:32 :) 11:15:59 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 11:18:06 -!- AtnNn [n=welcome@modemcable230.56-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["foobar"] 11:18:55 nowhere_man [n=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 11:24:48 elmex: that page is outdated, and too brief to have a good value. 11:25:34 (it's also not a great idea to judge plt or any other implementation based on the number of srfis it implements.) 11:25:42 It says the PLT is a mostly-complete implementation of r5rs, is this still valid or a point of concern for portability? 11:26:02 Or anything at all? 11:26:19 eli: yes 11:26:21 indeedd 11:26:25 antoszka: it is still valid, but not in any way that has any practical effect. 11:26:33 eli: thx 11:27:04 antoszka: the major (new) change is that pairs are immutable -- but there is an `r5rs' language that uses mutable values. 11:30:07 I believe Larceny is good at R5RS compliance 11:50:55 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:11:20 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 12:17:09 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 12:21:16 -!- mediogre [n=mediogre@88.147.167.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:30:11 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 12:34:18 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #scheme 12:37:32 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:43:03 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-243-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 12:49:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:49:51 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 12:57:26 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 12:57:49 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:01:39 annodomini [n=lambda@64.30.3.122] has joined #scheme 13:11:17 xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has joined #scheme 13:16:56 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:55 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:23:53 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 13:25:48 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #scheme 13:31:51 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:06 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 13:32:47 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.108.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:50 aquanaut [n=user@pool-71-191-49-201.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:44:24 -!- certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:49:00 brandelune [n=JC@pl051.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 13:55:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 13:56:08 npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-29fd461448b2b52a] has joined #scheme 13:56:33 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:01 ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has joined #scheme 14:05:24 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 14:08:37 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl051.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:11:32 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:30 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-47-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 14:12:36 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 14:13:10 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-31-15.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:13:12 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 14:21:39 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:10 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 14:37:11 jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has joined #scheme 14:38:17 Anybody have a patch to make Quack recognize sharp-semicolon? I've grown fond of the Quack fontification, but miss using sexp comments. 14:46:14 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:49:00 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:52:27 leimy [n=dave@pool-98-111-64-159.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 14:55:20 i get the impression that scheme is the python of the lisp world 14:55:34 WTF does that mean? 14:56:59 red is the new black 14:57:31 Is it? 14:57:39 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [] 14:57:54 Bad luck for all the emo kids :) 14:58:07 Gotta buy a whole new wardrobe! 14:59:40 sjamaan: see http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/The_new_black, 2nd ¶ 15:00:19 sbillig [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has joined #scheme 15:00:30 -!- sbillig [n=sbillig@216.70.26.144] has left #scheme 15:00:32 kohwj: e.g. ruled by a benevolent dictator; secretely lambda-phobic? 15:01:00 secretly* 15:01:30 klutometis: nah.. in terms of finding a middle ground between java-like verbosity and perl-like terseness 15:01:35 i may be wrong. 15:02:17 ok; what is the java and perl of the lisp world, then? 15:03:01 perl is easy: that's arc :) 15:03:16 heh; and arc is a dialect of plt, i understand 15:03:38 Not really 15:03:43 It was implemented in plt, tho 15:04:00 klutometis: i'm asking to try to draw parallels and thus learn more about lisp 15:04:04 and scheme 15:04:07 -!- offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:04:17 arc was criticised early on (right before every lost interest), as being a thin wrapper on plt 15:04:22 i thought that was rather unfair 15:04:39 kohwj: well, let's say lisp is its own java (not to crack the wind of that poor analogy) 15:04:48 then yes, scheme is pleasantly terse but expressive 15:04:52 kohwj: If you want to learn, try not to squeeze everything into other programming language terms 15:04:55 offby1 [n=user@q-static-138-125.avvanta.com] has joined #scheme 15:04:56 It will just add confusion 15:05:18 ok 15:05:21 common lisp, i should say 15:05:37 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:05:48 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:19 automejja [n=edwin@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 15:14:20 -!- automejja [n=edwin@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:16:26 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 15:17:08 i wonder whether i should focus on r6rs or on r5rs when implementing my interpreter. i certainly like r5rs due to it's small size, which allows me to reach a state where my implementation is mostly interoperable with others in a shorter time 15:17:26 on the other hand r6rs seems to be more precisely defined in some corners 15:17:39 but it comes with an awful huge load of stuff to also implement 15:18:54 elmex: r5rs was made to be implemented, though; while r6rs is merely a post-hoc formalization of plt scheme 15:19:13 hmm 15:19:51 but i also like some features of r6rs, which would also be very useful for me, like the I/O system for instance. or the exception handling 15:20:20 it looks like there are two horses: r5rs + srfi, or r6rs 15:20:37 elmex: implement what you want; it doesn't matter. 15:20:42 i also certainly dislike the verboseness my r6rs programs become 15:20:57 nobody but you will ever use your interpreter, and even you will never write anything of any size that's truly portable. 15:21:02 this has been your Daily Snark. 15:21:08 r5rs + srfis vs. r6rs is a fair characterization, i'd say 15:21:12 klutometis: that's just not true 15:21:19 samth: not rigorously, sure 15:21:47 i was referring to your comment about r6rs and plt-scheme 15:21:58 oh; counter argument? 15:22:16 offby1: you mean portability is not a worthy goal, as no matter how portable practical code becomes, there always will be things other implementations will miss? 15:22:20 r6rs was specifically enforced to frustrate the 48 hour schemers 15:22:31 i.e. those who would implement a learning system over the weekend 15:22:42 klutometis: do you have any evidence for that point? 15:22:44 elmex: something like that. 15:22:56 offby1: sounds reasonable 15:22:59 samth: eli 15:23:05 elmex: I am pretty sure that no useful scheme code (with the exception of libraries) has ever been written that is actually portable. 15:23:06 klutometis: many things in R6RS are very different from PLT 15:23:14 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:23:22 and eli had no influence on the R6RS process 15:23:33 but plt is the borg; and eli would speak for them, nevertheless 15:23:37 since he was neither on the steering committee, nor the editors committee 15:23:45 syntax-case is certainly intimidating :) i was happy when i wrapped my head around syntax-rules and an idea about how to implement it 15:24:01 but then discovering that syntax-case is another, equivalent huge thing 15:24:33 klutometis: eli doesn't speak for PLT, PLT is not "the borg", and PLT also did not control the R6RS in any way, shape or form 15:24:45 do you have any evidence for any of the claims you are making? 15:24:45 but i at leat found the papers about syntax-case and i guess i can understand the proposed mark-algorithm it features 15:25:48 elmex: there are a couple freely-available implementations of syntax-case that you could study as well 15:26:08 one from Andre van Tonder, and one from Kent Dybvig and Aziz Ghoulum 15:26:12 samth: yes, but the ones i found are really big :) 15:27:01 hmm 15:27:14 klutometis: additionally, it's still just as easy to implement a scheme system for learning as it was before 15:27:46 such systems were not compliant with R5RS, and they aren't compliant with R6RS, but that isn't the point 15:27:50 samth: also a conformant one, that one could slap a RxRS button on with just a week more work? 15:28:22 it was never possible to write an R5RS compliant scheme system in a week 15:28:40 yes, a week is indeed not enough 15:29:21 and further, the point of writing a system for learning is to learn, not to get other people to develop applications on your system 15:29:28 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:29 but the goal to reach r5rs compliance certainly isn't as intimidating as r6rs 15:30:33 with the availability of the dybvig/ghoulum and van tonder expanders, plus the available implementations of libraries, I think it might be easier 15:30:58 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:39 hm 15:31:46 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #scheme 15:37:15 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 15:37:27 samth: you mean the ones from http://www.r6rs.org/refimpl/ ? 15:37:36 yes 15:38:40 elmex: http://www.het.brown.edu/people/andre/macros/index.html 15:39:20 A macro expander is not a simple thing. 15:39:55 Daemmerung: yes, i agree 15:41:24 still, syntax-rules look a slight little bit easier than syntax-case ;) 15:41:48 i agree with samth, psyntax waqs god sent 15:41:53 Then don't implement syntax-case. 15:42:02 Daemmerung: yes :) 15:42:02 The FUD over R6RS is unwarranted. 15:42:31 hmm 15:43:52 As if the value of a standard is to splash a blazon across your hack. "Intel Inside!(tm)" "100% Pure Java!" "Now R(5)RS Compliant!" 15:43:53 -!- Axioplase is now known as Axioplase_ 15:45:19 :) 15:48:33 eli: bow chicka wow wow ping 15:48:50 is it possible to implement defmacro in r6rs? (using syntax-rules? syntax-case?) 15:49:30 i belive i read that defmacro can be done using syntax-case 15:49:38 tx 15:49:52 as syntax-case allows unhygenic expansions :) 15:49:58 cool! 15:50:22 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #scheme 15:51:34 so I can stick to defmacro in r[56]rs? 15:52:13 hmm, r5rs has no defmacro afaik, just syntax-rules, which is hygenic 15:52:26 wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has joined #scheme 15:52:34 does it have syntax-case? 15:52:47 nope 15:53:09 so I can use defmacro in r6rs, but not in r5rs. 15:53:24 syntax-case came in with r6rs. but many r5rs implementations come with syntax-case 15:53:38 but i cannot count on that. 15:53:57 yes, i guess 15:54:18 tx, enlightening! 15:54:43 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-243-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:56 -!- kohwj [n=di@bb116-15-145-147.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:46 sinderman, yes 15:59:52 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 16:00:26 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-108-78.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:01:32 sondermann: yes, here is something that someone posted on usenet: https://ironscheme.svn.codeplex.com/svn/IronScheme/IronSchemeConsole/ironscheme/define-macro.ss 16:01:36 -rudybot:#scheme- http://tinyurl.com/4n9tfp 16:03:17 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:10:05 *leimy* tries to use syntax-rules instead of syntax-case wherever possible. 16:10:13 in case I need to port my scheme 16:10:28 Luckily I don't need macros that often. 16:15:14 hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0542E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 16:15:33 -!- synthase [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:16:18 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:21:04 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:22:11 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:24:48 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 16:25:13 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 16:26:37 eli: un-ping. (The FFI error message generated when a callback returns # is hella confusing.) 16:37:36 replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 16:40:16 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:55 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:53:31 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-108-78.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:53:42 klutometis: not only is what samth said correct, I have never said anything like that. 16:54:10 klutometis: I know that if only because I have no idea who these "48 hour schemers" are, therefore I could not have said anything about them. 16:54:53 klutometis: next time you want to say something for me, please provide references, 16:54:57 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:08 eli: i believe that he was referring to people who implement a scheme in 48 hours 16:55:18 klutometis: and if you want to lie, feel free to (try to) do so, but not put words in my mouth. 16:55:53 samth: that would be my guess, and I have never said anything about *intentionally* sabotaging any 48-hour efforts, especially not in relation to r6rs. 16:56:03 right 16:56:17 eli: how was class on friday? 16:56:20 (And FWIW, I have never seen anyone getting close to a 48-hour implementation of r5rs, or r3rs.) 16:56:45 samth: went fine, and TS is done. I need to get the next HW out, in TS, but I'm busy with new-year cooking. 16:56:57 Daemmerung: sorry for not being responsive -- see above excuse... 16:57:13 eli: doesn't r3 have those parallel primitives? 16:57:21 they might be hard to implement ... 16:58:17 I don't remember -- but even without that it'll be a PITA that will take more than 48 hours... 16:58:58 (samth: BTW, JFYI, this is not the first time that klutometis spits out such bogus flames) 16:59:15 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:02:12 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.108.78] has joined #scheme 17:04:21 -!- replor__ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:54 -!- xwl [n=user@221.221.158.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:50 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 17:08:01 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:28 eli: Have fun in the kitchen. Tax time for me, ugh. 17:18:02 hm 17:19:49 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 17:21:50 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 17:23:38 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:26:31 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-243-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 17:28:34 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:45 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-243-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:25 -!- hircus [n=michel@c-98-228-41-95.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 17:43:44 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@WOOGABOOGA.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:51 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 17:47:43 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:53 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 17:48:22 Good morning everyone. 17:48:30 Afternoon, I mean. 17:48:53 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:49:03 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:50:19 -!- mmc1 [n=gvtk86@217.147.104.33] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:44 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:25 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:55 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:58:30 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:59:09 Good evening. 17:59:36 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:00:13 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:07:09 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 18:08:23 good day 18:19:16 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:23:36 -!- error_developer_ [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:25:32 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B0542E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:01 lukego [n=lukegorr@208.49.99.251] has joined #scheme 18:28:50 alexsei [n=alexsei@213.234.18.1] has joined #scheme 18:58:56 tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #scheme 19:01:02 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:00 fschwidom [n=fschwido@dslb-084-059-250-051.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 19:16:39 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-14-208-73.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:13 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 19:24:05 arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.200.55] has joined #scheme 19:33:54 brweber2 [n=brweber2@65.170.117.153] has joined #scheme 19:34:14 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:36 Wow this is cool. 19:35:13 In the source code plt accepts  as lambda :D 19:37:44 synx, Them PLT folks are quite weird. 19:37:45 :-) 19:38:12 Hey if it's less verbose it's aok in my book. 19:38:37 Begone, foul Perlmonger! 19:38:46 synx, I don't think Scheme is about terseness. 19:39:19 Scheme is about brevity and conciseness, but that is different than terse syntax. 19:39:33 Just my opinion though, by all means, use it if you like it. :-) 19:40:05 If only there was a way to make all those parentheses more terse. 19:40:16 synx, someone already has. 19:41:01 There is a dialect of Scheme out there that uses significant whitespace á la Python to avoid using parentheses. 19:41:27 Well, I complain about parentheses a lot but... 19:41:33 The language itself mandates deep nested contexts, so the parentheses are just a necessary symptom of that. 19:44:22 It's more the strategy used to avoid globals that trips me up, but it results in lots of instances of )))))))))) 19:45:41 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #scheme 19:45:58 pfo_ [n=pfo@chello084114049188.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #scheme 19:46:03 synx, what kind of code are you writing that has that many instances of that? 19:46:39 synx: λ is just an abbreviation, similar to "call/cc" for call-with-current-continuation -- nothing more. 19:46:51 Not that literally, but a lot of closing parentheses. Explicitly requiring the programmer (me) to specify when the scope is finished, trips me up. 19:47:02 Daemmerung: Yes, but it's only one character instead of 5 :3 19:47:08 synx, indentation and a decent editor, maybe? 19:47:11 Plus it looks wikked cool 19:47:36 Nope, indentation doesn't help make the algorithm less difficult. 19:47:46 synx, if you use proper indentation, then tracking your scope and typing parentheses, even without the help of an editor is pretty easy. 19:47:58 minion: advice for synx 19:48:00 djjack_ [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-016-166.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 19:48:01 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 19:48:03 crashmat1ix [n=crashmat@s5590785f.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #scheme 19:48:05 mhoran_ [n=mhoran@65.202.36.143] has joined #scheme 19:48:20 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-184-254.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:48:26 minion is speechless, that's a first. 19:48:32 -!- mhoran [n=mhoran@dodi.weehours.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:48:32 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Dead socket] 19:48:32 -!- crashmatrix [n=crashmat@s5590785f.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:48:32 -!- j4cbo [i=jacob@PARTYVAN.RES.CMU.EDU] has quit [Dead socket] 19:48:32 -!- djjack [n=djjack@cpe-098-026-016-166.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:48:41 *Daemmerung* is speechless at minion's speechlessness 19:48:47 minion: wake up. 19:48:54 eli broke a bot again? 19:48:56 *arcfide* slaps minion with a dictionary of YOW terms. 19:49:15 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #scheme 19:49:18 sarahbot: yow 19:49:18 Hello. I know the divorce rate among unmarried Catholic 19:49:23 Alaskan females!! 19:49:52 arcfide: Easy for you maybe! 19:50:17 synx, well, what is an example of something that is troublesome? 19:51:27 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:51:34 synx: #11904: Who the fuck cares which one is faster? 19:51:34 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 19:51:42 j4cbo [i=jacob@PARTYVAN.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 19:51:45 I'm working one up now, hopefully not too exaggerated... 19:51:51 minion: chant 19:51:52 MORE THE STRATEGY 19:52:33 minion: You are our slave, our play thing, and the only source of entertainment among a dark, sinester cult of Schemers. Oh wait, Sarahbot is back. Nevermind. 19:52:33 what's up? 19:52:47 s/sinester/sinister 19:54:13 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67626 19:55:50 Of course that could be simplified with letrec, but... that's what I mean by deeply nested contexts. 19:56:37 synx, what the. . . 19:57:00 WTF 19:57:48 OH FINE (* 2 (+ 2 2)) 19:58:34 synx, I fail to see how this very contrived example correlates to some real problem with following different closures in real life. 19:59:11 Not to mention the crazy indentation. 19:59:42 If you can't follow the nesting, then it's probably a programmer error. 20:00:31 In real life I usually cannot simplify it down, and algorithms get pretty deep in nested contexts sometimes. 20:00:57 synx: You can almost _always_ break a complex procedure into several smaller ones 20:01:04 And yes, it's a programmer error. That's what I'm saying. I have a hard time conceptualizing algorithms with a lot of parentehses. 20:01:27 Maybe it helps to conceptualize _before_ writing the parens :) 20:02:07 It's not the character ) though, it's the fact I have to remember the context... oh I don't know how to explain it. 20:02:56 synx, when you are losing track of where you are in a program, this is an indication that you are not properly abstracting your problem into conceivable and comprehensible mini-problems. 20:03:41 It's the same way you talk. When you talk, you don't redefine every term you use every time you use it. 20:03:52 You don't list out everything that is implied or connected with everything you write. 20:04:08 You use pronouns, among other things, and you use a logical flow in your writing to ensure that it is easy to follow. 20:04:15 You also assume that people already know what certain words mean. 20:04:21 Huh, you know I kind of do... that's interesting, haven't thought of it that way before. 20:05:01 If I were to reference you by name, then it's easy to know who I am talking about, and if necessary get information about you through a /whois command. However, I don't want to type the whois information every time I want to talk about you. 20:05:14 It's called abstraction, and it's very important to making readable programs. 20:05:18 Well sure, that would be redundant. 20:05:27 synx, not just redundant, but hard to follow. 20:05:41 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 20:05:56 But you don't want to reference my name, when you think that it has been assigned to someone else but mistakenly hasn't. That's the danger of globals... 20:06:30 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 20:07:27 Also you said that indentation is crazy. What would be a clearer way to indent? 20:07:45 Let me see if I can change that around. 20:09:00 synx: To solve the globals problem, modules were invented 20:09:17 sjamaan: and namespaces? 20:09:22 same thing 20:09:31 oh okay 20:09:45 I don't have any trouble with namespaces. 20:10:07 GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:34 synx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67626#1 20:11:09 Oh, yeah that last lonely parentheses was a bit out of place. 20:11:29 synx, you also used a whole lot of tabulation that made it look crazy on my screen. 20:11:54 Some people would also take issue with the way I put A and B on the same line. 20:12:01 it was lonely and died of colon cancer... 20:12:15 No, there is no tabulation in my paste, only spaces. 20:12:40 I think I messed up when it got rid of the tabulation... 20:13:12 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:13:14 synx: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67626#2 20:13:19 That's what you pasted. 20:14:00 I think when it removed the tabulation, it used 8 spaces ^.^; 20:14:12 Yeah. 20:14:37 I thought I had the editor set not to use tabs too. Guess not. 20:16:20 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:19:46 Foof Loop is so cool. 20:25:36 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 20:27:43 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #scheme 20:29:29 sjamaan: thanks for the suggestion about trampolines yesterday. That is a neat idea to ponder. 20:29:42 yw 20:29:56 I played with it a bit in JavaScript and I could get some trampoline code working at about 1/3 speed 20:30:11 1/3 of what? 20:30:32 1/3 of the speed of recursive JavaScript code 20:30:35 http://pastebin.com/m31c9c140 20:31:28 I suggest you try to get rid of the apply 20:31:36 I think that's part of the slowdown 20:32:01 If that's possible at all 20:32:16 sjamaan: I don't think that is much of the problem 20:32:42 -!- arcfide [n=arcfide@99.137.200.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:43 Another thing to try could be to change the objects to arrays 20:32:51 That might be faster 20:32:53 the version you are seeing is 1/12 speed. I speed it up by reusing return objects instead of creating them for each return 20:33:00 in JavaScript arrays are objects 20:33:00 aha 20:33:15 yes, but arrays are "special" afaik 20:33:24 not that special 20:33:31 Not optimized? 20:33:33 they just have a magic "length" property 20:33:51 maybe they are optimized in some ways 20:33:55 could be worth a try 20:34:22 With objects, afaik it needs to hash the properties everytime 20:34:39 Perhaps not so with arrays 20:34:50 an array can have named properties also 20:34:56 It can 20:35:17 I'm guessing all the extra function calls are slowing things down 20:35:26 Possibly 20:36:24 fun to play with, anyway 20:36:39 Don't know how fast the hasOwnProperty is 20:37:24 I think now would be premature optimization :-) 20:37:38 :) 20:40:03 I think a real problem would be if there was supposed to be a client-side scheme (eval). Then the whole compiler would need to be compiled to JavaScript or an interpreter would need to run in the client 20:41:31 What's wrong with that? 20:41:39 probably pretty big! 20:42:03 So? 20:42:13 the client needs to download it. That takes time 20:42:13 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 20:42:15 It needn't really be all that big, anyway. 20:42:43 Stinkin' buggy HDs and power spikes. 20:42:47 An interpreter is easy; a macro-expander somewhat less so, but still doable in a pretty small amount of code. 20:43:27 you think an implementation of Scheme in JavaScript (either compiler or interpreter) would not be that big? 20:44:19 No, you write it in Scheme, and make it self-hosting. 20:44:39 Actually, if you're generating JavaScript, the back end to the compiler can be pretty small. 20:46:02 You could write it in Scheme and make it self-hosting, but then there needs to be a scheme interpreter on the client which is slower than compiling to JavaScript, no? 20:46:34 peter_12: use a separate platform to bootstrap the compiler enough to compile itself. 20:46:50 You don't need any Scheme interpreter if you have a self-hosting compiler. 20:46:54 arcfide: that is what I was thinking 20:47:08 Riastradh: I may be misreading what you are writing 20:47:11 peter_12, after the first bootstrap, you're fine. 20:47:39 arcfide: It depends on how big the compiled compiler is 20:50:57 sonderma` [n=user@164-230-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #scheme 20:52:58 Riastradh, SKIP-LIST/MAP-MODIFY! is the preferrable procedure for adding new elements to an existing key in the list, right? 20:53:10 As opposed to something like SKIP-LIST/MAP-UPDATE!? 20:53:44 Depends on precisely what you want to do. 20:53:53 MAP-UPDATE! is more general. 20:54:34 Riastradh, I have a skip-list keyed on a series of costs. I have elements that need to be stored in the skip-list which may have the same keys, so I was going to just make sure that every key maps to a list of elements having that key. 20:54:53 So I was just going to CONS the new element to the existing one. 20:54:54 MAP-MODIFY! is the easier way to do that, then. 20:54:59 Alright, thanks. 20:59:40 -!- sondermann [n=user@129-194-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:44 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:00:49 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:02:13 -!- ventonegro [n=user@136.166.1.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:03:10 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:04:07 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 21:11:25 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:14:09 lelf [n=Lelf@217.118.90.69] has joined #scheme 21:15:20 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:20:45 a-s [i=root@93.112.92.52] has joined #scheme 21:21:54 Riastradh, do you have any recommendations for good benchmarks of SKIP-LIST to compare against things like RB Trees? 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00:52:35 those that don't directly go on the os 00:54:27 sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:55:13 archvile: right, and that blocks green threading schedulers. 00:55:32 wastrel: green threading is when an operating system process contains an own threading system. 00:55:58 this is in contrast to when using OS/native threading, provided by the operating system. 00:56:16 wastrel: do you familiar with the term thread ? 00:56:19 so it's a user process that manages an independent threading system in the process? 00:56:29 wastrel: that is correct. 00:56:45 BW^-: as for threading i have a layperson's understanding 00:56:49 wastrel: can you imagine of what benefit this might be to software execution? 00:56:52 i don't have a CS background unfortunately 00:56:56 wastrel: ok that's more than sufficient here 00:56:56 There are actually some OSes that do threading in a similar way because they don't implement native lightweight threads. 00:57:00 wastrel: you don't ened to 00:57:10 arcfide: you think about Sun Solaris, right? 00:57:25 BW^-, I think about OpenBSD. 00:57:43 arcfide: what ! so context switching between threads is super-cheap in openbsd ? 00:58:09 sstrickl_ [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:58:29 BW^-, I really don't know, actually, the problem is not so much that they want it like this, but that they haven't the resources to implement native kernel level threading in a way that they can feel safe about. 00:58:29 wastrel: ? 00:58:41 There are other issues with the threading library in OpenBSD. 00:58:53 arcfide: ok. like what? 00:58:58 BW^-, as for context switching, I don't know how fast it is. 00:59:12 hi the advantage is that the program doesn't need to use IPC between the threads? 00:59:20 they can just share data directly? 00:59:22 i dunno :] 00:59:25 As for the other issues, it's known to be broken in various ways that don't necessarily lend themselves to easy fixing. 00:59:51 wastrel: as for OS threads, within one OS process, threads can share data, so in that respect OS and green threading is equal. 00:59:58 This affects linux emulation, making thread heavy programs like Opera not so fun to run on OpenBSD right now. 01:00:07 wastrel: IPC - that's right, that's one consequence 01:00:24 wastrel: though, in general, it's about speed and flexibility. 01:00:37 BW^-, basically, it's something that we all want fixed, but none of us wants to tackle. 01:00:53 wastrel: i don't know the particular reasons, but operating system threads have a set of design aspects bundled with them that make them unsuitable for a multitude of usecases. 01:01:14 for instance, usually you don't want to have more than ~30 operating system threads running at the same time. 01:01:25 while in a green threading system, hundreds of thousands is completely OK. 01:01:34 -!- sstrickl [n=user@c-65-96-168-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:02:11 the reason you don't want many OS threads running at the same time are many. first off, each OS thread requires a RAM sanction of at least 4KB. second, switching the current thread of execution is a LOOT cheaper between green threads than between OS threads. 01:02:39 -!- sstrickl_ is now known as sstrickl 01:02:52 what makes most language environments not feature green threads is that all code and libraries must be written in a way that does not block the threading system. 01:03:17 Many languages do not do threading right. 01:03:18 early versions of Java featured green threads, for instance, but they abandoned that in order to be able to interface with whatever blocking library 01:03:29 At least, implementations. 01:03:33 m 01:04:37 thanks for the seminar :] 01:04:48 Actually, there seems to be precious few Scheme implementations that implement native threading. 01:05:18 so green threading software environments provide a powerful power pot, uh, for the software architects that commit to calibrate the entire software to conform with its philosophy. 01:05:49 imho the generally most powerful mechanism of threading is the Erlang kind of SMP green threading system 01:06:17 it works like this: the software environment creates one OS thread per CPU core, and then sets up green threading systems within each of them 01:06:39 the difficulty in the SMP green threading case is to get data synchronization kosher. 01:06:55 for Erlang, this development process took years (!). 01:07:17 mistakes result in broken data and crashes. 01:08:01 Does anyone know if there is some information on writing ones own iterators for Foof Loop? 01:08:12 vtalwar [n=vtalwar@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has joined #scheme 01:08:42 Yes, arcfide, in the foof-loop documentation. 01:08:52 Riastradh, oh? I guess I missed it somewhere. 01:09:27 Riastradh, in regards to changes to the next version of foof loop, would you prefer my opinion here or via email? 01:09:48 I'm listening here. 01:10:29 wastrel: btw, what do you have scheme for? 01:10:44 slogging through sicp 01:10:53 oh. :) 01:10:56 When using an iterator out of context, what would the new form provide that currently doesn't happen? 01:11:09 how do you like it? 01:11:45 i'm having to go back and re-read a lot 01:11:51 tough to get my head around 01:11:54 arcfide, it would turn a `bad syntax'-type error into a `invalid context for foof-loop iterator'-type error. 01:12:04 Hrm . . . 01:12:06 what's your objectives with it? 01:12:28 i'm trying to get a better handle on some basic CS background 01:12:34 theory and practice 01:12:39 And doing so would necessarily break everything already? 01:12:45 sounds good 01:12:51 are you aware there's videos? 01:13:06 Admittedly, I am not sure how many iterators exist that would be broken, but is it worth it? 01:13:21 I like the idea of having a more robust interface, but how complicated would extensions be in the future? 01:13:40 Right now, the only iterator I have that I use often is IN-FXVECTOR. 01:13:57 i looked at the first video, been meaning to figure out how to get them on my sansa so i can watch on the subway 01:14:10 By the way, you probably don't want to reuse %IN-VECTOR for IN-FXVECTOR; you probably want to copy %IN-VECTOR with fixnum arithmetic. 01:14:28 k 01:14:36 Riastradh, yes, yes, I do. :-) 01:15:50 Come to think of it, I could probably do that with IN-VECTOR to, because there may be an upper limit on the size of vectors with Chez. 01:19:30 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 01:21:51 I apologize if this question is very basic, but is there any way to prevent a lambda from closing over a particular function that it calls? 01:21:54 Actually, Riastradh, now that I think about it, assuming that the API doesn't become too much more complex, it might be nice to have the out of context error, but I don't think it's really something that I would consider a necessity. The only case I can think of it as helping would be the case when someone forgot to import foof-loop. 01:22:10 For example if a lambda calls the function foo, which is defined in the toplevel, is there any way locally alias foo with a different function? 01:22:23 I would expect most people to not try to use an iterator in a bad context most of the time, or in fact, almost all of the time. 01:22:51 hadronzoo, you mean, to have the lambda be unfolded and inlined? 01:24:57 hadronzoo, no, not without the relevant procedure's cooperation. 01:25:09 arcfide: not really, I want to make a caller-specific function available in a lambda, but I don't have that function until the lambda is called 01:25:28 Riastradh: so I would need some sort of dispatch system? 01:26:21 Thanks, I couldn't figure out how to do it without something like CLOS 01:26:45 Can you be more specific? 01:26:56 For example, describe the program you're trying to express, and what it does. 01:26:57 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 01:27:43 Riastradh: I want to execute a passed lambda within a new thread, but I want some i/o commands available within the lambda without passing them as parameters 01:28:00 Why without passing them as parameters? 01:29:50 Riastradh: I guess just because it's verbose to pass several functions representing all of the different i/o functions. I'm just curious as to what is possible. I will pass them as parameters now. 01:32:06 george_ [n=george@189.107.188.43] has joined #scheme 01:32:09 Riastradh, in your foof-loop.txt documentation, you have a section talking about generic/special arithmetic, and mention that the compiler should do the job for you. Do you happen to know of compilers which do this, and those which do not? 01:33:28 No compilers do that, really. 01:33:54 Riastradh, why the blurb suggesting that people find smarter compilers then? 01:34:16 It was (and still is) wishful thinking. 01:34:33 That's not a very easy thing to detect, is it? 01:34:51 No. On the other hand, I'm not aware of any Scheme compilers that even try. 01:36:19 hm 01:36:23 so I'm writing a C compiler for a class 01:36:35 and the IR, when printed, is accidentally valid scheme 01:36:37 is this awesome? 01:37:04 IR? 01:37:11 intermediate representation? 01:37:30 yep 01:49:40 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:05 -!- GreyLensman [n=ray@c-76-108-235-51.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #scheme 01:52:42 -!- sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 01:53:15 Riastradh, in the custom iterators, which bvl set of bindings is visible to the body of the loop and to the rest of the loop clauses? 01:53:50 hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD059133117089.ppp.dion.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 01:54:42 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 01:56:05 -!- vtalwar [n=vtalwar@nat08.sjc1.metaweb.com] has left #scheme 01:58:07 arcfide, if you're interested in smart compilers that attempt to infer when it is safe to use special arithmetic rather than generic, go over to #concatenative and quiz slava about it. He's doing some interesting work in that area right now in the Factor optimizer. 01:58:44 arcfide, this is, I believe, explained in the manual. If it's not clear, can you point out the part of it that's not clear? 01:59:03 -!- ventonegro [i=alex@189-94-194-250.3g.claro.net.br] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:02:48 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:03:53 Does anyone know some sort of select function that I could use to block on several operations at once? 02:03:58 blocking operations, like reading or writing from a pipe or socket or...something. 02:04:57 That depends on what Scheme system you're using. 02:05:31 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-117.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 02:09:20 Riastradh, reading the entry about custom iterators, it appears that the body-bvl is bound in the body of the loop, but it's not clear if these are also bound int he final expression, or whether any of the other bvls or loop iterator values are bound in the body or the final expression. 02:10:15 See Section `Loop Expansion'. 02:10:37 By the IN-LIST example, it appears that the bound variables ought to go into the body-bvl, but if these are needed to do conditional tests for termination, it implies that they might first have to be bound in something like the entry section first, and then rebound in the body-bvl. 02:11:03 So there's nothing general, okay. How about plt? 02:11:10 Or whatever you use. Might give me some clue what to search for. 02:11:13 The scope is clarified very precisely in the Section `Loop Expansion'. 02:11:18 I think in plt it has something to do with the "event" section... still reading it though. 02:11:20 synx, search for `events', SYNC, and CHOOSE. 02:11:28 (They might be called SYNC-EVENT and CHOOSE-EVENT; I don't remember.) 02:11:37 -!- ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.102] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:12:36 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-6-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 02:13:22 -!- Mr_Awesome [n=eric@c-98-212-143-245.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:14:03 Riastradh, okay, I think I understand that now. It might make sense to have a reference to the scoping rules in the Custom Iterators sections. 02:15:04 Yeah I'm reading about them now. Seems to be just the right answer. 02:15:23 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:46 arcfide, that, too, is explained in the Section `Writing Custom Iterators'. 02:16:11 That section does not mention the user variables, because those are largely irrelevant to the the authors of custom iterators. 02:18:13 Riastradh, I don't see any reference to Loop Expansion in the Custom Iterators section. 02:18:32 The scope rules are explained in the Section `Writing Custom Iterators'. 02:19:04 Ashy [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #scheme 02:19:27 Riastradh: Are you talking about the paragraph that starts with, "[t]the ordering of the arguments...?" 02:19:45 s/]the/]he/ 02:19:56 No, I'm talking about the comments alongside the intended invocation of the continuation that is passed to the iterator's macro. 02:20:04 `The continuation should be invoked as follows:' 02:21:15 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:21:15 Riastradh, this guarantees that some of the bindings will be available in some cases, but does not guarantee that some bindings are not visible in those contexts. 02:22:06 I see. The comments next to the body and final specifiers should be clarified. 02:22:57 The body producers and the final producers are evaluated in an environment wherein the outer, loop, and entry variables are all bound. 02:23:33 No other variables are visibly bound due to foof-loop. 02:24:03 And the loop body and final expression are evaluated in environments where the outer, entry, and body or final values are bound? 02:24:22 And in the case of the body of the loop, user-bvl is also bound? 02:24:35 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless174.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 02:27:03 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:28:32 Section `Loop Expansion' is authoritative. When I get a chance I'll clarify the manual. 02:28:49 I'll clarify the manual's Section `Writing Custom Iterators', that is. 02:29:16 Riastradh, thanks. ;-) 02:31:09 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-47-61.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:33:34 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 02:35:04 brandelune [n=JC@pl237.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 02:41:59 ttmrichter [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.102] has joined #scheme 02:42:01 ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.102] has joined #scheme 02:42:38 prince [n=prince@203.246.176.177] has joined #scheme 02:42:58 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-117.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:43:11 -!- ttmrichter_ [n=ttmricht@219.140.250.102] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:44:05 -!- prince [n=prince@203.246.176.177] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 02:44:44 prince [n=prince@203.246.176.177] has joined #scheme 02:51:22 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 02:54:47 amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has joined #scheme 02:55:58 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S0106001310475d12.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [] 03:00:04 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 03:01:58 elmex_ [n=elmex@e180065097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 03:02:10 -!- elmex [n=elmex@e180066140.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:02:34 -!- elmex_ is now known as elmex 03:04:13 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@gateway.publicvpn.net] has quit [] 03:05:16 -!- tltstc [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:13:19 -!- amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:13:38 amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has joined #scheme 03:19:17 amca_ [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has joined #scheme 03:22:41 Okay, so... (sync event event etc...) -> the result for one event that's ready. How to determine which event to remove from the next call to sync? 03:25:34 Only solution I can think is to wrap every single event in a wrapper that removes the event from the list of pending events. Seems klunky though... 03:25:42 aer you implementing sync? 03:26:10 Doesn't it already do that? Or...hm 03:32:03 -!- amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:34:48 -!- amca_ is now known as amca 03:36:24 -!- gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has left #scheme 03:36:33 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 03:38:48 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:24 aoeuid [n=aoeuid@DHCP-60-247.ST.HMC.Edu] has joined #scheme 03:45:47 is there any way that I could pring out the a list into a variable so that I can use things like regexes on it? 03:46:10 print out a list* 03:48:16 Yes, using a string port. But you don't want to do that. Search the list directly instead. 03:48:45 is there a convenient function that lets me do that built in? 03:49:58 What are you trying to do? 03:50:08 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has left #scheme 03:50:57 aoeuid, (format "~a" some-list) 03:51:43 jonrafkind: no 03:51:49 maybe 03:52:06 turtles 03:59:32 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.188.43] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:13:13 -!- prince [n=prince@203.246.176.177] has quit [Client Quit] 04:14:02 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 04:17:02 all the way down? 04:18:13 -!- amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:18:23 offby1: no, that's just silly....it's a hoverturtle! 04:18:35 amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has joined #scheme 04:22:00 swp0743 [n=swp0743@bas5-toronto06-1176148960.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 04:22:05 hey guys 04:22:28 im a beginner at lisp, and im having trouble loading sock module, can anyone help ? 04:23:12 which foot? 04:23:13 har har 04:23:56 can anyone help me out ? 04:25:19 probably not until you give more details, such as: what lisp are you using? 04:25:28 (and note that "lisp" and "scheme" aren't quite the same thing) 04:25:32 well im using lisp scheme 04:25:42 using mzscheme compiler 04:25:45 aaaah 04:25:48 now we're getting somewhere 04:25:51 heh 04:25:57 which version? 04:26:19 and what do you mean by "loading sock module"? 04:26:39 well what m trying to do is this 04:26:42 mm hmm 04:26:43 do go on 04:26:47 http://www.franz.com/support/tutorials/socket-tutorial.htm 04:26:57 preety much palying around with sockets 04:27:00 you realize of course that franz is a Common Lisp vendor 04:27:11 you're reading a Common Lisp tutorial. 04:27:14 Common Lisp != scheme 04:27:14 gaaah 04:27:29 didnt know that 04:27:37 they're probably no more related than are PHP and Perl 04:27:42 kinda similar, but not really the same 04:27:50 tjafk1 [n=timj@e176198019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #scheme 04:27:54 are you doing this for fun, or for a school assignment? 04:28:01 just doing it for fun 04:28:03 aha! 04:28:04 well then. 04:28:08 -!- tjafk2 [n=timj@e176204202.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:09 i decided to start learning lisp 30 min ago 04:28:12 mzscheme has pretty good socket support. 04:28:13 heh 04:28:27 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless174.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:32 would u guys recoment any tutorials for a beginner 04:28:44 sure -- the stuff that comes with PLT scheme is pretty good. 04:28:57 http://docs.plt-scheme.org/quick/index.html 04:28:59 for example 04:29:18 hmm nice 04:29:29 thanks alot guys gonna go read up on that stuff 04:30:07 -!- swp0743 [n=swp0743@bas5-toronto06-1176148960.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 04:30:07 there's a whole book for newbies: http://www.htdp.org/ 04:30:18 start at http://plt-scheme.org, lotsa good stuff 04:30:32 and be sure to ask questions here; there are a fair number of PLT folks here (besides me) 04:30:41 well, folks who _use_ PLT, anyway. 04:30:41 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 04:37:09 -!- amca [n=amca@121.208.81.104] has quit [No route to host] 04:37:12 kilimanjaro [n=foo@70.116.95.163] has joined #scheme 04:37:46 amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #scheme 04:38:40 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 04:39:17 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl237.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:43 -!- npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has quit [] 04:50:27 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 04:50:45 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 04:50:49 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:06 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 05:07:24 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:07 I'm not implementing sync, just want to know how to maintain a set of multiple events that haven't happened yet. 05:12:19 erp? 05:12:28 I feel like I've dropped into the middle of a conversation 05:12:35 Did I miss something? 05:18:12 offby1: it was an answer to a question asked nigh on two hours ago 05:18:17 I see. 05:18:39 Yeah sort of. I went idle. :/ 05:18:49 also, you're on candid camera 05:19:11 synx: in PLT, I don't think you need to remove anything from your list of things-to-wait for. 05:19:16 Just keep waiting. 05:19:18 I think. 05:19:24 hmm. 05:19:37 He thinks, therefore he hmms. 05:19:37 zbigniew: is offby1 the old white haired guy who comes out to meet you on Candid Camera? 05:19:40 maybe the thing that became ready will cause your sync to return immediately, which of course isn't what you want. 05:19:49 mbishop: does that guy walk on his own? 05:19:54 then it's not me. 05:20:01 *mbishop* steals offby1's cane 05:20:16 ha! I only have the cane for appearances; this walker is way better. 05:20:18 plt-scheme has a (sync) procedure, that takes a list of async events, blocks, and returns the result for one of them that is completed. How to remove completed events from such a list, I am pondering. 05:20:37 lemme see what the docs say 05:20:39 *mbishop* steals the little bag off the front of offby1's walker 05:20:43 mbishop: offby1 is the daguerrotype 05:20:45 synx: "events" are not single events. They are more like channels. 05:20:59 otherwise the list will quickly be full of already completed events... not even sure if that would work at all. 05:21:42 *daguerreotype, evidently 05:21:59 that was a daguerreotypo. 05:22:11 synx: well, I dunno, but I'll give you 5:2 that eli will know. 05:22:19 *zbigniew* falls over 05:22:25 mbishop: you can keep it; the dispensary has lots of clean ones. 05:22:54 mbishop: make sure he's talking about the cane. 05:23:02 no, the bag. 05:23:07 euw. 05:23:10 he didn't seem to notice it was connected to me via a tube 05:23:18 that's OK, I don't mind a little leakage. 05:23:36 Have another Olestra potato chip, then. 05:23:41 *synx* tries not to lose track of time, but... (3 hours later) it just, you know. 05:23:48 Definitely. 05:23:58 Daemmerung: don't mind if I do. Y'know, you can't eat just one. 05:24:06 My idea was to wrap every single event in a procedure that removes that event from "the list". But, it'd be better to have sync doing that inherently. But again, I'm not writing sync. 05:24:37 *synx* read 'em, may have missed something... 05:25:29 I assume you want to wait for _all_ the events to be ready, but you want to run some code each time _one_ of them is ready? 05:25:30 how about wrapping sync with a procedure that modifies the list? 05:25:43 Daemmerung: No kidding, really? That's different then! 05:25:49 Oh I totally get it now. I thought they were one-shot things. 05:26:20 actually I thought they were one-shot also. 05:26:29 at least, some of 'em 05:26:38 Depends on the event. 05:26:45 synx: so what kinds of things are these events, anyway? Channels? Ports? Alarms? 05:26:59 Cotillion? 05:27:49 offby1: It doesn't need to remove completed events, since the event objects stay valid for future occurrences of their ...situation? 05:27:49 ewww olestra 05:28:03 ah, so my original thought was right 05:28:10 just keep waiting on the same list over and over 05:28:22 makes you poop like mineral oil 05:29:17 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has left #scheme 05:29:25 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 05:30:50 offby1: They can be all sorts of things. sync will take them all. It's a unified interface! 05:31:35 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:31:49 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 05:31:50 Yeah I think alarms need to be removed. Hm... 05:32:02 Right. 05:32:37 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:51 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 05:33:36 Since the synch result of an alarm is the alarm itself, sync will return that alarm. 05:33:49 tizoc_ [n=user@r190-135-29-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 05:34:22 I know they _can_ be all kinds of things, but I was wondering what _your_ things were. 05:34:28 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:34:38 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 05:40:00 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-6-52.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:00 Yeah, so I need to manually remove alarm from whatever list of events I'm using, or it'll ring forever. 05:47:58 Or just use sync/timeout. 05:49:45 ...which is impossible because you have to pass the value of (handle-event) to the handler argument of (handle-event), to know what to remove. DAMMIT I'm just gonna sleep on it. 05:50:25 -!- wastrel [n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel] has quit ["bedtime, and past bedtime ... nite"] 05:53:47 -!- tizoc_ is now known as tizoc 05:54:18 not a good idea, if you have alarm events with different timeouts. 05:55:12 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:03:35 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 06:08:05 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.150.203.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:09 certainty|work [n=david@212.77.255.5] has joined #scheme 06:12:25 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #scheme 06:16:22 -!- dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:17:27 dfeuer [n=dfeuer@wikimedia/Dfeuer] has joined #scheme 06:21:07 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #scheme 06:27:32 -!- amca [n=amca@CPE-121-208-81-104.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Farewell"] 06:27:45 athos [n=philipp@p54B867FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #scheme 06:27:55 borism [n=boris@195-50-205-71-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #scheme 06:34:43 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-207-244-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:28 Mr_Awesome [n=eric@isr5956.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #scheme 06:40:23 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:46:49 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:47:47 saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #scheme 06:47:57 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@65-78-24-47.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:26 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:42 hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #scheme 06:58:45 -!- hml_ [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:49 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:03:46 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has left #scheme 07:11:10 MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has joined #scheme 07:11:12 jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 07:11:15 cubix [n=cubix@bas21-toronto12-1242359988.region1.highspeedunplugged.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 07:14:34 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:38:07 -!- Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:42:11 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:58:17 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@c-98-202-86-149.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:45 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #scheme 08:05:14 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:07:24 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #scheme 08:08:17 hello folks, I am working through the SICP. Is guile ok for trying the examples? 08:08:23 sure 08:08:25 Any scheme will do 08:08:50 You might need to define one or two procedures (mostly 1+ as add1, iirc) 08:09:59 I am starting to learn lisp right now, so I don't know how to do that, but I will probably learn with time 08:10:15 You can just write add1 where you see 1+ 08:10:38 Assuming guile has an add1 procedure. Otherwise, just write (+ 1 x) instead of (1+ x) 08:11:49 and another question.... I am quite fond of the philosophy of lisp, so I'll try to learn it well... I think I am going to read both the Practical Common Lisp and the SICP... which one would you suggest I start with? 08:12:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:12:19 SICP is a better book for learning the underlying concepts 08:12:45 Practical Common Lisp is a hands-on book for how to do certain things 08:12:58 yeah, I surely want both :) 08:13:05 I'm not sure how much knowledge PCL assumes 08:13:09 SICP assumes none 08:13:12 none 08:14:17 yeah, I'll probably continue reading a bit from the one then the bit from the other, untill one of the two "takes" my brain for itself only :) 08:14:49 heh 08:14:51 Good luck 08:15:05 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has left #scheme 08:15:10 thanks :) 08:28:27 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 08:36:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 08:37:58 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #scheme 08:38:24 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[n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 08:57:37 Nuts. 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I'm trying to switch off keyword highlighting, to no avail. (I think i miss the basics.) 16:56:54 -!- papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:17 sonderma`: /join #emacs 16:58:28 ah, good hint. 17:01:25 -!- Daemmerung [n=goetter@1133sae.mazama.net] has quit ["Smoove out."] 17:02:46 peter_12 [n=peter_12@d75-157-225-201.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #scheme 17:03:09 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 17:03:40 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 17:04:03 -!- elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:33 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:04:39 From r5rs: "The escape procedure accepts the same number of arguments as the continuation to the original call to call-with-current-continuation" 17:04:57 when would an original call to call/cc haave a continuation with more than one argument? 17:06:12 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-67-101.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 17:06:40 It seems like a strange thing to write because the next line is "Except for continuations created by the call-with-values procedure, all continuations take exactly one value." which implies a call to call/cc will never have a continuation with more than one value. 17:06:53 -!- Kirakishou [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:06:57 so why did they write the first line I quoted? 17:11:21 -!- MichaelRaskin_ [n=raskin@213.171.48.239] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:12:01 cky_ [n=cky@202-74-212-35.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #scheme 17:14:50 -!- sodio [n=sodio@netblock-63-66-64-29.myitdepartment.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:14:55 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #scheme 17:16:25 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-92-109.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:37 -!- Jay [n=mirc@c-67-170-119-66.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:18:18 mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #scheme 17:18:36 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-147-123-10.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:12 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #scheme 17:26:20 peter_12: when returning multiple values 17:26:56 or i am not sure 17:26:58 :) 17:27:03 I'm not sure either 17:27:31 try it :) 17:29:55 -!- synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:30:39 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Success] 17:30:42 whats that paste url? 17:30:48 i got an example 17:33:22 OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 17:33:30 -!- tizoc [n=user@r190-135-29-254.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:51 http://pastebin.com/ 17:33:51 peter_12: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67672 17:34:23 and u just pointed me to bug in my system :) thanks 17:34:36 tizoc [n=user@r190-135-11-211.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #scheme 17:35:20 leppie: thanks 17:35:43 np :) 17:36:42 papermachine [n=ahoman@61.152.106.169] has joined #scheme 17:37:30 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 17:39:26 pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:40:00 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 17:42:07 -!- hotblack23 [n=jh@p5B055F61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:24 funny enough, ypsilon allows either form 17:44:00 thats because they use a vector for multiple values, i suspect, i had similar issues 17:45:18 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-67-101.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:47:00 -!- pjdelport [n=pjd@dsl-243-1-136.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Success] 17:47:04 leppie: now I understand why they wrote it the way they did. Thanks 17:47:38 -!- Guest39741 [n=mike@dslb-088-067-041-010.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:50:39 ^self [n=fn@116.58.16.71] has joined #scheme 17:54:49 synthasee [n=synthase@68.63.20.12] has joined #scheme 18:00:58 -!- ikor [n=user@host89-251-107-6.hnet.ru] has quit [No route to host] 18:04:08 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:20 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #scheme 18:09:43 -!- OceanSpray [n=karl@CMU-284828.WV.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:19 saccade_ [n=saccade@MEDICAL-NINETY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has joined #scheme 18:14:56 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@MEDICAL-NINETY-EIGHT.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:19 annodomini [n=lambda@130.189.179.215] has joined #scheme 18:15:38 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:10 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-72-67-93-54.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit 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hadronzoo_ [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-252-98-8.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #scheme 21:53:33 is there anything in scheme that would facilitate pattern-matching and replacement within a list of symbols? 21:54:33 -!- annodomini [n=lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [] 21:56:19 map? just guessing, I'm a rather complete noob. 21:57:40 not exactly 21:58:41 I mean something like (1 (2 3) (2 3)) matching the pattern [(a (b b))] 21:59:13 Give an example... what you said is not specific enough. 21:59:40 -!- npe [n=npe@nat/ibm/x-4356c628d693159e] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:00:04 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:00:53 something like a replace function, that takes a list full of symbols and lists of symbols, a pattern, and a return pattern 22:01:36 (replace '(x ((y z) (y z)) '(a (b b)) '(a b)) => (x (y z)) 22:03:16 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-67-101.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 22:03:46 So you want to count the elements in a list, and match up those counts with lists of equal length. Also counting length of lists in lists. 22:04:13 not quite 22:04:25 the pattern could only match a small part of the list 22:04:36 leaving other tokens untouched 22:05:07 That sounds like something you'll have to write. I can't think of a nonspecific way it would be in any standard library. 22:05:19 mm, ok thanks 22:07:03 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-169-118.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:18 It sounds very complicated in fact. Though, similar to Xpath queries searching XML. Try seeing what they've done, if you want to employ a similar strategy. 22:08:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:50 Just a sec, I remember reading a paper about that. 22:08:52 *gnomon* googles 22:09:40 -!- Archvile is now known as Archville 22:10:19 And ideally xpath matches a small part of the XML, doesn't touch anything else. 22:10:35 Here you go, http://library.readscheme.org/servlets/search.ss?kwd=trx&en=Enter 22:11:19 sorry I don't know of a solution. 22:11:38 I just cited a solution. Now you know of one. 22:13:20 -!- Kinks_ [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:59 Kinks [n=Kinks@uc087.housing.umanitoba.ca] has joined #scheme 22:16:16 sm_ [n=sm@pool-71-165-166-138.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 22:16:18 -!- sm [n=sm@pool-71-165-166-138.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16:52 -!- p1dzkl [i=p1dzkl@2001:470:1f14:19c:0:0:0:2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:28 Ooh neat. 22:18:13 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless98.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:18:53 -!- langmartin [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [No route to host] 22:26:01 dum de dum 22:28:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 22:28:15 -!- aoeuid [n=aoeuid@DHCP-60-247.ST.HMC.Edu] has quit [Success] 22:29:18 -!- Motoko-Kusanagi is now known as Kusanagi 22:31:32 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless98.wireless.utah.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:27 jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless98.wireless.utah.edu] has joined #scheme 22:35:51 -!- saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-67-101.dyn.mit.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:36:12 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:55 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #scheme 22:37:48 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-42-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:37:57 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:37:58 gweiqi [n=greg@69.120.126.163] has joined #scheme 22:38:29 -!- synx [i=pandora@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0xA71B0C6A] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:39:51 aoeuid [n=aoeuid@DHCP-60-220.ST.HMC.Edu] has joined #scheme 22:41:35 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:44:55 npe [n=npe@66.112.249.148] has joined #scheme 22:45:39 errordeveloper [n=errordev@78-86-1-110.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #scheme 22:56:55 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:59:43 -!- kryptiskt [n=kryptisk@c83-249-72-204.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:01:05 LA la la 23:09:41 arcfide [n=arcfide@adsl-99-137-203-90.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:10:18 Hey all, does anyone know where I can get some sample 8-puzzle test states to try out? 23:10:31 I'm thinking about ones with depths of around 19 or 20. 23:11:12 8-puzzle? 23:16:29 OceanSpray [n=karl@DA-YU.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #scheme 23:20:30 -!- jonrafkind [n=jon@wireless98.wireless.utah.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:21:33 a-s [i=root@93.112.81.106] has joined #scheme 23:22:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-8.dsl.look.ca] has joined #scheme 23:24:09 mbishop, 9-puzzle, if you like. It's where you have a square of 3x3 with 8 blocks in it and one blank and you have to have ways of arranging those blocks. 23:30:41 Nevermind, I just found a trivial way of generating solutions. 23:32:59 sebell [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:43 -!- vorpal [n=rhunter@pdpc/supporter/student/vorpal] has quit ["The incensed priests...continued to raise their voices, vituperating each other in bad Latin"] 23:46:10 -!- hiyuh [n=hiyuh@KD125054017176.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp] has quit ["|_ e /\ \/ i |/| G"] 23:46:40 -!- sebell is now known as sb-bbq 23:48:34 saccade_ [n=saccade@dhcp-18-188-67-101.dyn.mit.edu] has joined #scheme 23:59:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #scheme