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2018-01-15T14:12:09Z foof: re: #true and #false, I didn't insist and was somewhat surprised it got accepted. I was just hoping to breach the issue for discussion in R8RS.
2018-01-15T14:13:13Z foof: There was more to the argument though.  Mostly it was for newcomers to Scheme, since in almost every other language the boolean constants are spelled out.
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2018-01-15T15:14:44Z vyzo: so are we removing stuff for R8RS?
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2018-01-15T15:14:54Z vyzo: I like R7RS overall, but there are things I would like to see removed
2018-01-15T15:15:12Z vyzo: like raise-continuable and the insane semantics it specifies for the exception handler dynamic environment
2018-01-15T15:15:31Z vyzo: and I would also vote to remove #true and #false
2018-01-15T15:15:34Z vyzo: they are worthless
2018-01-15T15:15:50Z vyzo: we already have #t and #f, which are shorter
2018-01-15T15:18:14Z qu1j0t3: definitely the only factor worth considering
2018-01-15T15:18:28Z r\x00t: personally exception handling is something i dont want to take the time to learn in Scheme :/ don't have that in C. why not just specialize call-with-current-continuation in a library providing all sorts of monadic computations? i know this isnt haskell, but seriously sometimes i look at the libraries and im like wow too much for Scheme
2018-01-15T15:18:38Z jcowan: After R7RS-large, I'm retired from the Scheme business, or possibly already dead
2018-01-15T15:19:11Z jcowan: vyzo: What's wrong with raise-continuable?
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2018-01-15T15:21:13Z r\x00t: jcowan: r7rs.org is your bucket. don't you want to make it more user-friendly or at least make sure you continue to update r7rs.org?
2018-01-15T15:21:34Z jcowan: eventually yes
2018-01-15T15:21:46Z jcowan: however I am still healing from a broken arm
2018-01-15T15:21:56Z r\x00t: sorry to see that
2018-01-15T15:22:01Z jcowan: right now all the information is there, and that's the main thing
2018-01-15T15:22:44Z r\x00t: however you still link to the 10th draft i think and r7rs-small links are broken, like the red ballot is the only reference we have
2018-01-15T15:23:42Z jcowan: draft-10 is the branch name for what became the final version
2018-01-15T15:23:48Z r\x00t: ok
2018-01-15T15:25:04Z r\x00t: when i want to show how small and easy scheme is to beginners im a bit embarassed about the clicking involved. doesnt look like its the right place to download for a beginner who doesnt know r7rs
2018-01-15T15:25:42Z r\x00t: but i shouldnt criticize your work, youre already doing a lot for us
2018-01-15T15:26:59Z r\x00t: i think there 3-4 clicks involved before actually accessing the right link for the ppdf, depending on which device you use. its less clear on a cellphone
2018-01-15T15:27:38Z jcowan: Fixed broken links
2018-01-15T15:27:49Z r\x00t: that was quick :P
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2018-01-15T15:27:54Z jcowan: I don't think the R7RS spec is the right place for a beginner to start
2018-01-15T15:28:02Z r\x00t: why not?
2018-01-15T15:28:26Z Riastradh: Yes, the R0RS is obviously a better place; then incrementally make your way via the R1RS, R2RS, &c., up to the R7RS!
2018-01-15T15:28:31Z Riastradh hides
2018-01-15T15:28:40Z jcowan laughs evilly
2018-01-15T15:28:51Z r\x00t: if i tell them theyll know the whole standard language with ~80 pages in a weeks reading...
2018-01-15T15:29:29Z gwatt: when was the last time you learned a language by just reading the spec?
2018-01-15T15:29:36Z C-Keen: but they will know nothing about their actual scheme system
2018-01-15T15:29:38Z jcowan: Basically because it is a highly technical reference full of finicky details.  To someone who has never heard of Scheme or Lisp-like languages before, I should think it would be baffling, but maybe I underestimate the work of my predecessors, who wrote most of the intro material
2018-01-15T15:30:05Z jcowan: gwatt: *I* do that often, but that works for me because I've done it a zillion times before.
2018-01-15T15:30:15Z cmaloney: I think it's kind of like Go (the game, not the language). Once you get past the basics I would stat reading the spec to understand the finer points
2018-01-15T15:30:21Z cmaloney: and what comes baked into the language.
2018-01-15T15:30:33Z jcowan: I really did learn Lisp from the Dartmouth Lisp 1.5 manual (stolen by me from the U.S. Naval Academy), but it took me about a year to work through it
2018-01-15T15:30:33Z r\x00t: i learn domain specific languages from datasheets, reference documents and academic publications but maybe i shouldnt
2018-01-15T15:30:34Z wasamasa: r\x00t: you're mistaking easy for simple
2018-01-15T15:30:44Z vyzo: jcowan: i don't like the switcharoo of the dynamic environment
2018-01-15T15:30:49Z cmaloney: r\x00t: How many languages
2018-01-15T15:30:51Z vyzo: requires a slow implementation that is tied to stacks
2018-01-15T15:30:57Z vyzo: the Gambit way is much better
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2018-01-15T15:31:03Z vyzo: raise is already continuable
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2018-01-15T15:31:11Z wasamasa: r\x00t: scheme is simple, not easy, python is easy, not simple
2018-01-15T15:31:14Z vyzo: if the exception handler returns,  then good!
2018-01-15T15:31:18Z vyzo: it can be interactive
2018-01-15T15:31:19Z cmaloney: Feh, r\x00t how many languages have you learned?
2018-01-15T15:31:28Z vyzo: but the dynamic environment has no business being tied to the environment
2018-01-15T15:31:36Z vyzo: you can capture the continuation just fine for that
2018-01-15T15:31:38Z r\x00t: cmaloney: mostly maths, neural network architectures. and cmaloney: around 30 to 40 languages
2018-01-15T15:31:54Z cmaloney: Right, so picking up a new language is second-nature to you
2018-01-15T15:31:56Z vyzo: and implement stack-unwind semantics with an exception catcher
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2018-01-15T15:32:20Z cmaloney: reading the spec is like learning a new form of mathematics
2018-01-15T15:32:20Z jcowan: vyzo: That's what guard does
2018-01-15T15:32:20Z r\x00t: well... Scheme is a good language for people to start
2018-01-15T15:32:41Z cmaloney: if you already understand mathematics then you're good to go
2018-01-15T15:32:42Z jcowan: I agree, but HTDP or SICP is the place to start if you are a stone beginner
2018-01-15T15:33:08Z qu1j0t3: SICP doesn't teach scheme, really...
2018-01-15T15:33:40Z jcowan: The reason to have both raise and raise-continuable is so that the caller can signal unambiguously whether it is prepared to be resumed or not.
2018-01-15T15:33:41Z r\x00t: jcowan: in the time of r5rs i agree but nowadays you have to link them to r7rs, at least i hope thats what people try to do
2018-01-15T15:33:56Z jcowan: r7rs-small isn't that different
2018-01-15T15:34:12Z r\x00t: i know but it should be a confusing thing for beginners
2018-01-15T15:34:17Z vyzo: jcowan: let me make my compaint more concrete
2018-01-15T15:34:24Z jcowan: Please do!
2018-01-15T15:34:34Z vyzo: the problem I have is the dynamic environment it specifies for the exception handler in raise-continuable
2018-01-15T15:34:51Z vyzo: it specifies that it has the previous exception handler and the dynamic environment it had
2018-01-15T15:35:02Z vyzo: that means that you are keeping track of the exception handlers!
2018-01-15T15:35:05Z vyzo: so there is a stack
2018-01-15T15:35:10Z vyzo: you see the problem?
2018-01-15T15:35:18Z vyzo: you require a stack based implementation very deep in the language
2018-01-15T15:35:45Z vyzo: that's not very friendly to true CPS Schemes like Gambit and Gerbil on top
2018-01-15T15:36:35Z jcowan: I don't see how that can be avoided.  If the handler runs in the same dynamic environment as its caller and raises an exception, it will be reentered, whereas an exception in the handler should be handled by the handler in place when the handler was established.
2018-01-15T15:36:52Z vyzo: if it raises an exception it catches itself
2018-01-15T15:36:57Z jcowan: handlers should not have to handle their own errors, is what I am saying
2018-01-15T15:37:00Z vyzo: that's how with-exception-handler works
2018-01-15T15:37:14Z vyzo: no, they shouldn't raise errors in the first place
2018-01-15T15:37:27Z jcowan: Pfft, that's a good trick.  What about out-of-memory?
2018-01-15T15:37:38Z vyzo: that's an abortable condition
2018-01-15T15:37:41Z vyzo: you can abor the thread
2018-01-15T15:37:48Z vyzo: you can have different mechanisms of abort
2018-01-15T15:37:55Z vyzo: but besides the cheap trick
2018-01-15T15:38:00Z vyzo: sorry if you feel it was
2018-01-15T15:38:17Z vyzo: the issue is that you require the caller (raise-continuable) to have knowledge of a stack
2018-01-15T15:38:43Z vyzo: tha'ts shouldn't be in the standard imo
2018-01-15T15:39:11Z vyzo: if you want a stack
2018-01-15T15:39:15Z vyzo: then put it in with-exception-handler
2018-01-15T15:39:21Z vyzo: see with-exception-catcher in Gambit
2018-01-15T15:39:37Z vyzo: just to be clear, I am not sayin gthat stack unwind is a bad idea
2018-01-15T15:39:56Z vyzo: for example, spawn installs an abortive exception handler that unwinds the stack on uncaught exceptions
2018-01-15T15:40:13Z jcowan: the dynamic environment always involves a stack: consider how parameterize works
2018-01-15T15:40:25Z vyzo: exceptions are different
2018-01-15T15:40:32Z vyzo: they can be handled by an operator interactively
2018-01-15T15:40:50Z vyzo: no stack unwind unless the operator says so
2018-01-15T15:40:56Z vyzo: or he can return a value in a tail raise!
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2018-01-15T15:45:41Z vyzo: also, for the root of your complaint
2018-01-15T15:45:48Z vyzo: it's easy to have a handle not handle its own errors
2018-01-15T15:46:24Z vyzo: (with-exception-handler (let (E (current-exception-handler)) (lambda (exn) (with-exception-handler E (lambda () foo ...)) thunk)
2018-01-15T15:46:30Z vyzo: and that can become a new primitive
2018-01-15T15:46:56Z vyzo: which is functionaly equivalent to with-exception-catcher in Gambit
2018-01-15T15:47:18Z vyzo: actually the latter unwinds stacks
2018-01-15T15:47:21Z vyzo: anyway
2018-01-15T15:47:30Z vyzo: all I am saying, is that you put the stack in the wrong place
2018-01-15T15:47:41Z vyzo: raise should always be continuable in the sense that it can return a value
2018-01-15T15:47:48Z vyzo: and raise-continuable is unnecessary
2018-01-15T15:48:30Z vyzo: what you want is with-exception-handler, with-exception-catcher, and form of guard (or primitive) that can implement your concern for not handling its own errors
2018-01-15T15:48:34Z vyzo: no stack required
2018-01-15T15:49:06Z vyzo: hopefully that better explains my problem with raise/raise-continuable
2018-01-15T15:49:07Z jcowan: Guard allows the *caller* to handle the callee's errors in such a way that the callee doesn't get control.
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2018-01-15T15:49:39Z jcowan: Raise(-non-continuable) lets the callee inform the caller that recovery from this error is not possible
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2018-01-15T15:49:58Z jcowan: Historically this distinction was encoded in the condition object, but that turns out to be a bad idea
2018-01-15T15:50:03Z vyzo: you see my problem with that is that you break the control flow
2018-01-15T15:50:47Z vyzo: the exception handler should be allowed to keep the stack and always expected to continue when installed with the lowest form with-exception-handler
2018-01-15T15:50:53Z jcowan: So you do.  The point of exceptions is that they are exceptional.  If you want Go, you know where to find it.
2018-01-15T15:50:55Z vyzo: which is the only primitive you need, together with call.cc
2018-01-15T15:51:09Z vyzo: that's a cheap shot on your part too :)
2018-01-15T15:51:14Z jcowan: well, yes
2018-01-15T15:51:29Z vyzo: look, i am not personally attacking your choice
2018-01-15T15:51:38Z vyzo: i am arguing that it was a wrong engineering decision :p
2018-01-15T15:52:02Z vyzo: because we can do better with just with-exception-handler
2018-01-15T15:52:24Z vyzo: also for informing the caller about the callee's requirements
2018-01-15T15:52:25Z jcowan: Sure.  I just think you are missing the utility of raise, which is the core of error
2018-01-15T15:52:29Z vyzo: that doesn't mean unwind the stack!
2018-01-15T15:52:42Z vyzo: I don't, I use stack unwind all the time in actor threads in Gerbil
2018-01-15T15:52:45Z jcowan: Why not?  Calling error means "I give up"
2018-01-15T15:52:50Z vyzo: nope
2018-01-15T15:52:55Z vyzo: maybe you are in the repl
2018-01-15T15:53:00Z vyzo: and the operator can provide the value instead
2018-01-15T15:53:03Z vyzo: because he is debugging
2018-01-15T15:53:10Z vyzo: you are killing the debugger with this decision
2018-01-15T15:53:14Z vyzo: let's not make it in the standard
2018-01-15T15:53:21Z vyzo: that's the core of my problem with it!
2018-01-15T15:53:44Z jcowan: For that use case, restarts are the right thing, and I hope to get them into the Yellow Ed
2018-01-15T15:53:54Z vyzo: sigh
2018-01-15T15:54:07Z gwatt: vyzo: you don't have to return from the exception handler
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2018-01-15T15:54:47Z jcowan: https://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/restart.text
2018-01-15T15:54:52Z gwatt: could you not make a debugging-exception-handler at the repl and execute all expressions in that context?
2018-01-15T15:55:11Z vyzo: sure!
2018-01-15T15:55:28Z vyzo: but if you have a raise "I GIVE UP"
2018-01-15T15:55:41Z vyzo: you wont be able to fix it
2018-01-15T15:56:13Z vyzo: coz you've already unwound stack
2018-01-15T15:56:35Z vyzo: and maybe you are not able to fix it,  but at least you will be able to poke it so that you understand the bug
2018-01-15T15:59:43Z jcowan: ah, I think I see the problem
2018-01-15T15:59:46Z jcowan: raise does not unwind the stack
2018-01-15T15:59:55Z jcowan: it simply prevents the handler from resuming the caller
2018-01-15T16:00:39Z jcowan: (define (raise obj) (raise-continuable obj) (raise "Attempt to continue the uncontinuable"))
2018-01-15T16:01:30Z vyzo: you can define several semantics for your exception handling
2018-01-15T16:01:40Z vyzo: which ultimately dictates how raise will behave
2018-01-15T16:02:14Z vyzo: but it's up to the installed handler
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2018-01-15T16:07:16Z gwatt: jcowan: that definition of raise is an infinite loop
2018-01-15T16:08:23Z gwatt: or maybe not, i guess it depends on the handler.
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2018-01-15T16:11:20Z jcowan: I assume the handler will try to figure out what it has and reraise anything it doesn't understand, that's true
2018-01-15T16:11:25Z jcowan: s/I assume/It assumes
2018-01-15T16:11:44Z jcowan: However, you can call some implementation-specific panic instead of raise if you prefer.
2018-01-15T16:12:10Z gwatt: no, you're right. that's basically what chez does, though with duplicate code instead of defining raise in terms of raise-continuable
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2018-01-15T16:34:12Z vyzo: also see the Gambit implementation
2018-01-15T16:34:59Z vyzo: raise is raise-continuable without stack unwind
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2018-01-15T16:40:50Z jcowan: yes, that is what r7rs does: no unwind from either raise or raise-continuable
2018-01-15T16:41:08Z jcowan: the only unwinding is done by guard (or direct use of call/cc)
2018-01-15T16:42:00Z vyzo: there are details (1) and (2) I don't like
2018-01-15T16:42:11Z vyzo: don't say anything about the handler being active
2018-01-15T16:42:18Z vyzo: leave it up to the handler
2018-01-15T16:42:32Z vyzo: and then I'd be happy to have two primitives with raise defined in terms of raise-continuable
2018-01-15T16:42:39Z vyzo: so call it an ammendment to the standard
2018-01-15T16:42:53Z vyzo: and then I would be happy to have raise and raise-continuable in Gerbil r7rs
2018-01-15T16:43:03Z vyzo: but as it is I can't provide raise-continuable with these semantics
2018-01-15T16:43:25Z vyzo: and I am not willing to implement them in Gambit core either, because it's too intrusive a change that breaks stuff
2018-01-15T16:44:31Z jcowan: Where do we say anything about "active"?  I'm not seeing it.
2018-01-15T16:44:52Z vyzo: (1) the current exception handler is the one that was in place when the handler being called was installed,
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2018-01-15T16:45:02Z vyzo: (2) if the handler being called returns, then it will again become the current exception handler.
2018-01-15T16:45:07Z jcowan: oh, the current exception handler, I see
2018-01-15T16:45:11Z vyzo: right
2018-01-15T16:45:14Z vyzo: it's a nonlocal change
2018-01-15T16:45:23Z jcowan: How is that different from the current dynamic environment in general?
2018-01-15T16:45:38Z vyzo: the handler is a property of the thread in a multi-threaded scheme
2018-01-15T16:45:44Z jcowan: as, in the current set of rebound parameters?
2018-01-15T16:45:49Z jcowan: so are they
2018-01-15T16:46:12Z vyzo: so basically you require the implementation to keep a stack of handlers in with-ecxeption-handler
2018-01-15T16:46:16Z vyzo: so that you can do the switcharoo
2018-01-15T16:47:08Z jcowan: We require it to keep a per-thread set of values for all parameters (dynamically bound objects)
2018-01-15T16:47:17Z vyzo: yes, that's fine
2018-01-15T16:47:27Z vyzo: but the dynamic environments are flat in gambit!
2018-01-15T16:47:30Z vyzo: not stacked
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2018-01-15T16:49:50Z jcowan: you've lost me here, and anyway I have to go to the doctor
2018-01-15T16:50:04Z vyzo: ok
2018-01-15T16:50:17Z vyzo: anyway, it's a very technical and low level issue I have
2018-01-15T16:50:21Z vyzo: the requirement to keep a stack
2018-01-15T16:50:28Z vyzo: the implementation shouldn't be required to do so
2018-01-15T16:50:31Z vyzo: because, CPS!
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