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2017-06-07T00:05:56Z akkad: so compose is like reduce or the clojure -> threading operator.
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2017-06-07T00:14:35Z noethics: it's like the fundamental compose operator in math :D
2017-06-07T00:21:00Z noethics: reduce has to work on a list, also
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2017-06-07T00:39:28Z akkad: I see, thanks
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2017-06-07T02:01:18Z John[Lisbeth]: has scheme been ported to lambda calculus?
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2017-06-07T02:09:42Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: well, there are not that manu lambda calculus computer to be bought, you know…
2017-06-07T02:09:56Z pjb: Ah, if there was a customer demand for them!
2017-06-07T02:10:17Z pjb: John[Lisbeth]: but again, start by implementing a lambda calculus virtual machine, and go ahead!
2017-06-07T02:16:02Z John[Lisbeth]: I have already got two lambda calculus machines
2017-06-07T02:16:06Z John[Lisbeth]: one is javascript anonymous functions
2017-06-07T02:16:08Z John[Lisbeth]: one is a krivine machine
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2017-06-07T02:16:34Z John[Lisbeth]: I can also use lambdas in lisp and I can use lambdas in haskell
2017-06-07T02:17:10Z John[Lisbeth]: My question was not how to implement lambda calculus but if scheme were ported to lambda calculus
2017-06-07T02:17:59Z John[Lisbeth]: as in perhaps an secd had been written in lambda terms
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2017-06-07T02:22:49Z pjb: Using CL:lambda is not using lambda calculus.
2017-06-07T02:23:20Z pjb: The point is that you cannot buy a lambda calculus processor from Intel or AMD, therefore you have to start by writing yourself a good lambda calculus virtual machine.
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2017-06-07T02:24:28Z pjb: Then you will have to implement a physical universe, to be able to implement some computer (memory including persistent memory, terminal, etc).
2017-06-07T02:24:41Z pjb: then you can start implementing scheme or CL.
2017-06-07T02:25:50Z qu1j0t3: But...who created YOU, oh evil one?
2017-06-07T02:30:35Z pjb: The thing is that the semantics of CL requires that you have eg. a number system that is based on an array of bits.  Eg. operators such as ldb/dpb. But also a lot of other operations, will be faster if you have an addressable mutable memory rather than a purely functional lambda-calculus basis.  If you translated them directly to lambda-calculus, it would be way too slow.
2017-06-07T02:31:17Z pjb: (which of course wouldn't matter if you had access to a real lambda calculus system (since it'd be a mathematical system living in all eternity, and able to compute instantaneously, just like God).
2017-06-07T02:31:20Z pjb: ).
2017-06-07T02:38:42Z noethics: i think they just wanted to know if it existed not if it was fast :P
2017-06-07T02:41:51Z noethics: i think you could write a compiler for a subset of scheme to lambda calculus pretty easily?
2017-06-07T02:42:29Z John[Lisbeth]: krivine machine is a lambda calculus machine
2017-06-07T02:42:34Z John[Lisbeth]: you can run it in any turing complete programming language
2017-06-07T02:42:43Z John[Lisbeth]: anything that can map to javascript anonymous functions can map to krivine machines
2017-06-07T02:42:59Z John[Lisbeth]: anything that can map to lambdas in lisp can map to krivine machines
2017-06-07T02:43:28Z noethics: what do they do
2017-06-07T02:43:46Z noethics: parse church encoding into reasonable data structures before eval?
2017-06-07T02:44:10Z John[Lisbeth]: well javascript uses this notation function(){}()
2017-06-07T02:44:25Z John[Lisbeth]: lisp uses this notation (lambda (x) (+ 2 x))
2017-06-07T02:44:36Z noethics: how do you know that it got compiled to lambda calculus at all
2017-06-07T02:44:38Z John[Lisbeth]: krivine machine uses de bruijn's
2017-06-07T02:44:49Z John[Lisbeth]: I am not concerned with what it got compiled to
2017-06-07T02:46:18Z noethics: why are you askingif scheme had been ported to lambda calculus then
2017-06-07T02:46:28Z noethics: why would someone port it when they could compile it to lambda calculus
2017-06-07T02:48:01Z John[Lisbeth]: because lambda calculus is highly portable
2017-06-07T02:48:35Z noethics: you could reasonably compile a scheme interpreter written in scheme to lambda calculus
2017-06-07T02:48:53Z noethics: for some values of reasonably
2017-06-07T02:49:06Z John[Lisbeth]: what about scheme written in scheme lambdas
2017-06-07T02:49:30Z noethics: i think that's all you could do
2017-06-07T02:49:40Z John[Lisbeth]: sure has someone done that?
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2017-06-07T02:56:08Z noethics: John[Lisbeth], this is pretty interesting http://matt.might.net/articles/compiling-up-to-lambda-calculus/
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2017-06-07T03:05:57Z John[Lisbeth]: this is some good reading but it is stuff I already knew from reading wikipedia
2017-06-07T03:06:07Z John[Lisbeth]: AND it is implementing lambda calculus in scheme, not implementing scheme in lamdba calculus
2017-06-07T03:06:14Z John[Lisbeth]: repeatedly you have given me the opposite of what I seek
2017-06-07T03:06:30Z John[Lisbeth]: I have already got several perfecly decent implementations of lambda calculus at my disposal
2017-06-07T03:06:44Z John[Lisbeth]: I need to try to put legacy shit into lambda calculus
2017-06-07T03:06:47Z John[Lisbeth]: such as gnu
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2017-06-07T03:19:30Z noethics: that's not implementing lambda calculus in scheme, it's compiling scheme to lambda calculus in scheme
2017-06-07T03:19:56Z noethics: which you might need to do yourself. thankfully scheme is a superset of lambda calculus so you have an easy life
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2017-06-07T04:41:34Z John[Lisbeth]: you should be able to compile scheme to any lambda calculus the same way
2017-06-07T04:41:42Z John[Lisbeth]: it would look the same with only different notation for lambdas
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2017-06-07T05:39:04Z ecraven: aren't there many different variants of lambda calculus?
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2017-06-07T11:24:02Z lvo: what does "#<procedure:c11170>" mean or where can I read about it
2017-06-07T11:26:11Z DKordic: It's just better than nothing ;) .
2017-06-07T11:30:34Z lvo: How do you mean?
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2017-06-07T14:06:34Z justinethier: ecraven: thanks for posting the new benchmarks! :)
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2017-06-07T14:19:24Z gwatt: though looks like the racket benchmarks aren't working again
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2017-06-07T14:40:17Z justinethier: hmm, yeah ironscheme and racket have no results
2017-06-07T14:45:08Z justinethier: I suppose racket-r7rs needs to be reinstalled each time a new version is installed (??)
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2017-06-07T15:53:14Z ecraven: well, mono people have decided that it is wise to include /usr/bin/csc in their package on arch linux, so this now conflicts with chicken (thus no ironscheme)
2017-06-07T15:53:24Z ecraven: not sure about racket, I need to investigate
2017-06-07T15:54:12Z wasamasa: it was always named csc, the difference between debian and arch is that the debian maintainer decided to rename csc to mono-csc whereas the arch maintainer didn't rename a thing
2017-06-07T15:54:53Z ecraven: wasamasa: yes, but mono only introduced it recently, no?
2017-06-07T15:55:02Z wasamasa: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2017-06-07T15:55:07Z ecraven: there used to be a time when I could install chicken *and* mono at the same time
2017-06-07T15:55:16Z wasamasa: early enough for a couple of websites to reference csc for mono
2017-06-07T15:55:25Z wasamasa: also, the conflict didn't always exist
2017-06-07T15:55:44Z wasamasa: the issue ticket looks like the conflict got introduced after a user complained about a pacman error
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2017-06-07T15:57:56Z jcowan: I take it that arch has no separation like mono vs. mono-dev packages?  You don't need csc to run IronScheme.
2017-06-07T15:58:09Z wasamasa: nope
2017-06-07T15:58:15Z wasamasa: arch is a developers first distro
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2017-06-07T15:58:29Z wasamasa: so no header separation
2017-06-07T15:59:14Z jcowan: Still, nothing prevents you from renaming it yourself
2017-06-07T15:59:28Z wasamasa: sure, that's what I suggested earlier :P
2017-06-07T15:59:39Z wasamasa: writing a PKGBUILD doing the right thing is relatively simple
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2017-06-07T16:04:19Z mejja: ecraven: what happend with mit scheme in your latest benchmark run?
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2017-06-07T16:10:40Z justinethier: there are a lot of "unable to mmap executable heap -- native code will probably fail" errors for MIT
2017-06-07T16:14:41Z ecraven: hm.. have to check
2017-06-07T16:16:09Z justinethier: once this is printed all of the mit benchmarks fail with the same error... maybe the machine got in a bad state?
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2017-06-07T16:37:28Z ecraven: might be. I'll switch to run-on-schemes when I finish it, then we'll get proper output in the html
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2017-06-07T16:57:41Z gwatt: ecraven: does arch have W^X protection?
2017-06-07T16:57:57Z ecraven: no idea ;)
2017-06-07T16:58:06Z ecraven: but I regularly use MIT/GNU Scheme and haven't run into problems
2017-06-07T16:58:13Z gwatt: weird
2017-06-07T16:58:15Z ecraven: just re-running the arch run, seems to be fine
2017-06-07T16:58:36Z gwatt: I know selinux does W^X protection.
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2017-06-07T16:58:53Z ecraven: I don't have selinux activated
2017-06-07T16:59:16Z gwatt: fair nuff
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2017-06-07T17:00:20Z ecraven: not leet enough for that, I keep running into selinux problems with the servers (my fault, not selinux's ;)
2017-06-07T17:01:26Z gwatt: I stopped running selinux distros.
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2017-06-07T17:02:00Z ecraven: well, it might be worth it for servers with multiple applications on them, to separate them. but it's a lot of work :-/
2017-06-07T17:02:29Z ecraven: ah, someone™ should fix equal? on MIT to work on circular structures :/
2017-06-07T17:02:50Z ecraven: or is there a way to kill a process if it runs at 100% cpu for n seconds?
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2017-06-07T17:02:54Z ecraven: a simple way ;)
2017-06-07T17:02:59Z gwatt: I use this thing to maintain IRC sessions and host some random stuff
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2017-06-07T17:03:09Z pjb: ecraven: simple way: ulimit
2017-06-07T17:03:11Z ecraven: yea, I'm talking work servers
2017-06-07T17:03:33Z ecraven: pjb: that'll just timeout, whether it runs at 100% or not, though, won't it?
2017-06-07T17:03:44Z pjb: eg.: ulimit -t 5 # and any subprocess using more than 5 sec. cpu time will be killed.
2017-06-07T17:03:50Z pjb: No timeout, cpu time.
2017-06-07T17:03:52Z ecraven: I want to let it run for 5 minutes, but if it busy loops, *then* it should be killed
2017-06-07T17:03:55Z gwatt: oh sure, but it seems that people are moving over to docker or kubernetes
2017-06-07T17:04:10Z pjb: you can run for days using less than 5 sec cpu time in total.
2017-06-07T17:04:17Z ecraven: not an expert, but I've heard using docker for security is a very bad idea
2017-06-07T17:04:39Z pjb: ps axl # and see the TIME column.
2017-06-07T17:05:46Z pjb: Anyways you asked for something simple.
2017-06-07T17:06:27Z gwatt: ecraven: you can remove root priveleges from the running container
2017-06-07T17:06:45Z pjb: you may prefer to run it with nice?
2017-06-07T17:07:10Z ecraven: ok, new run pushed, mit seems to be back to normal
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2017-06-07T17:14:02Z akkad: you can run unprivileged LXD's with dockers inside them. nothing having uid0 on the host system
2017-06-07T17:16:08Z akkad: imho the real insecurity of docker, is people downloading random images off dockerhub and running them.
2017-06-07T17:16:20Z akkad: worse than the curl somescript|bash
2017-06-07T17:22:47Z mejja: it would be nice to see chicken win a run or two and gambit probably should win a few more ..
2017-06-07T17:23:07Z jcowan: akkad: I thought the whole point of docker was that it runs in an encapsulated environment, so you can't mung your real environment by running an image
2017-06-07T17:23:19Z jcowan: unlike curl | bash, which runs in your main environment
2017-06-07T17:26:01Z mason: jcowan: This presumes that evasion is impossible.
2017-06-07T17:28:56Z jcowan: Well, yes, if there is an exploit in docker.  That's like saying that if there is an exploit in your kernel, all your userspace programs are insecure.
2017-06-07T17:30:24Z ecraven: jcowan: there are multiple known escapes in docker, I've read
2017-06-07T17:30:29Z jcowan nods
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2017-06-07T17:33:41Z jcowan: https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-13534/product_id-28125/Docker-Docker.html shows only 14, only one of which could reasonably be called "open".
2017-06-07T17:33:52Z jcowan: Well, maybe two
2017-06-07T17:34:53Z gwatt: I've run into weird issues with docker regarding the storage drivers
2017-06-07T17:35:41Z gwatt: I think the debian world has some issues with devicemapper
2017-06-07T17:35:50Z gwatt: I've had problems with overlayfs
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2017-06-07T18:47:10Z jcowan: Given a mechanism to drop a prefix (if present) from identifier names when importing them, what should be done when the identifier just is the prefix?  My inclination is to leave such an identifier alone, but there is an argument to reduce it to ||, the empty identifier.
2017-06-07T18:50:35Z ijp: the latter behaviour is more obvious
2017-06-07T18:54:40Z gwatt: That's what chez seems to do
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2017-06-07T18:55:51Z gwatt: (import the identifier as ||, I mean)
2017-06-07T18:58:50Z gwatt: guile just up and fails
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2017-06-07T19:08:47Z gwatt: Though as drop-prefix isn't in r6rs, I guess that's perfectly fine
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2017-06-07T19:25:27Z ecraven: jcowan: I'd create || too, that is the least surprising, imho
2017-06-07T19:26:20Z jcowan: It breaks r6rs systems that don't have a syntax for (string->symbol ""), but perhaps that doesn't matter.
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2017-06-07T19:29:49Z jcowan: Given that Chez does it with ||, probably that's the Right Thing
2017-06-07T19:32:22Z gwatt: There's a third option that I think is reasonable: don't import that symbol.
2017-06-07T19:32:34Z gwatt: s/symbol/identifier/
2017-06-07T19:33:05Z ijp: I'd say drop the feature rather than add weird special cases
2017-06-07T19:38:27Z jcowan: Chibi uses the no-|| convention, Chez uses the ||-convention
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2017-06-07T21:54:49Z n_blownapart: could I get some help learning haskell with ackermann.rkt vis a vis ackermann.hs ? the recursive lines are identical but the haskell condition statements look much different. (they wouldn't help me on haskell irc)  thanks  http://lpaste.net/356118
2017-06-07T21:55:14Z n_blownapart: re: ackermann function ^
2017-06-07T21:56:09Z n_blownapart: I fully understand the computation in scheme
2017-06-07T21:56:35Z wasamasa: why are you asking for haskell advice on #scheme
2017-06-07T21:57:34Z akkad: too bad the name "IEEE Lisp" was not used inplace of scheme
2017-06-07T21:58:20Z n_blownapart: I *just want to learn* wasamasa please explain if you understand the syntax
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2017-06-07T21:58:37Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: what makes you think you will get haskell advice on #scheme?
2017-06-07T21:58:41Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: you can always try #haskell-beginners or #lambdanow
2017-06-07T21:58:58Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, lambdanow ?
2017-06-07T21:59:03Z qu1j0t3: or, somebody who knows haskell here might be happy to answer
2017-06-07T21:59:25Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: it isn't sufficient to just want to learn
2017-06-07T22:00:33Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: Are you sure these compute the same function?
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2017-06-07T22:02:09Z n_blownapart: no the haskell one is a different function. how do I set it up to compute 2^n like th e scheme ? wasamasa
2017-06-07T22:02:26Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: translate the scheme into haskell?
2017-06-07T22:02:42Z n_blownapart: ...yes
2017-06-07T22:02:43Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: i.e. the scheme predicates become patterns
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2017-06-07T22:03:21Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: you can use the bottom function as an example of how this is done
2017-06-07T22:03:24Z qu1j0t3 bbl
2017-06-07T22:03:44Z n_blownapart: I don't see how the conditional statements are written in haskell. how could they be utterly different if the recursive line is equivalent?
2017-06-07T22:04:21Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: they're different functions, it seems.
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2017-06-07T22:04:35Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: but that's not the point. just write a haskell translation of the scheme func, if that's your goal.
2017-06-07T22:04:54Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, I'd really appreciate if you would show me the translation
2017-06-07T22:05:00Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: (COND...) breaks down into definition by cases.
2017-06-07T22:05:05Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: well, how much Haskell do you know?
2017-06-07T22:05:33Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: you have an example of pattern matching/definition by cases in your paste.
2017-06-07T22:05:35Z n_blownapart: I understand the factorial example and most of a primality test in haskell.
2017-06-07T22:05:41Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: i really think this is straightforward.
2017-06-07T22:05:55Z qu1j0t3: if that translation is beyond your haskell ability then you probably need to step back to a more basic exercise.
2017-06-07T22:06:41Z n_blownapart: ack 0 n ; ack m 0 are different conditions, then, I take it
2017-06-07T22:06:47Z Riastradh: It sounds like n_blownapart is asking why the Scheme cond appears to be different from the Haskell cases.
2017-06-07T22:07:16Z qu1j0t3: if you have a function (A x y) and one of the cases is (COND ((= y 0) 0) ...)  then that is the case     ack x 0 = 0    and so on.
2017-06-07T22:07:23Z qu1j0t3: do you see that?
2017-06-07T22:07:39Z Riastradh: Not why the syntax is different, but why the actual conditions and branches are different.
2017-06-07T22:07:55Z qu1j0t3: Riastradh: i'm not sure these compute the same function...
2017-06-07T22:08:13Z qu1j0t3:  n_blownapart | no the haskell one is a different function. how do I set it up to compute 2^n like th e scheme ?  // Riastradh
2017-06-07T22:08:26Z Riastradh: I'm sure they don't.  The Haskell `ack 0 0' gives 1, whereas the Scheme (ack 0 0) gives 0.
2017-06-07T22:08:30Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: yes they are differnt cases.
2017-06-07T22:08:49Z Riastradh: Maybe just off-by-one or something.
2017-06-07T22:08:54Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: i've given you a hint on translating COND above. if that's not enough, you should go back to more basic Haskell drills, i think.
2017-06-07T22:09:51Z n_blownapart: please show me the scheme as I have it pasted in haskell. It would be much appreciated. the primality test is easier to follow in haskell (similar to sicp test)
2017-06-07T22:10:25Z n_blownapart: ok thanks
2017-06-07T22:11:00Z Riastradh: ack x 0 = 0; ack 0 y = 2*y; ack x 1 = 2; ack x y = ack (x - 1) (ack x (y - 1))
2017-06-07T22:11:29Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, yes I think I can write it based on your hint. thanks ! and thanks Riastradh
2017-06-07T22:11:44Z n_blownapart: excellent thank you!
2017-06-07T22:12:07Z Riastradh: Of course, that's not a very literal transliteration.
2017-06-07T22:12:12Z Riastradh: To make it more literal, you might use | notation:
2017-06-07T22:12:20Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, I must seem like an idiot, but I'm a geezer trying to learn programming again after dropping it a few times.
2017-06-07T22:12:22Z Riastradh: ack x y | y == 0 = 0; | x == 0 = 2*y; | ...
2017-06-07T22:12:48Z Riastradh: (Write line breaks for `;', and align the `|' symbols into a single column.)
2017-06-07T22:13:52Z n_blownapart: excellent Riastradh qu1j0t3 very kind of you to branch out for my benefit
2017-06-07T22:17:07Z n_blownapart: one thing Riastradh , Is the recursive line the only actual Ackermann element ? I thought the functions changed merely based on changing the inputs
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2017-06-07T22:18:21Z n_blownapart: (A 0 3) ( A 1 4) etc.
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2017-06-07T23:00:04Z jcowan: akkad: John McCarthy made sure that no national or international standard would ever be called "Lisp".
2017-06-07T23:00:25Z jcowan: That way it remains free as the name of languages with a family resemblance.
2017-06-07T23:00:56Z jcowan: ISLisp, which is an ISO standard, probably started life as "International Standard Lisp", but officially it didn't stand for anything.
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2017-06-07T23:04:34Z qu1j0t3: ISNOTLISP
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2017-06-07T23:08:08Z akkad: OpenLisp is quite nice
2017-06-07T23:08:47Z akkad: jcowan: I agree. just you see a lot of lisp == CL arguments
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2017-06-07T23:10:15Z n_blownapart: qu1j0t3, If you're still inclined, I tried this first with pipes. there's a problem on line 22 : http://lpaste.net/356118
2017-06-07T23:10:45Z akkad: being a convert from the former to the current, it's quite nice to see modern srfi's
2017-06-07T23:13:08Z qu1j0t3: n_blownapart: you need an otherwise, i think.
2017-06-07T23:15:28Z n_blownapart: thanks qulj0t3 I added the other version not working http://lpaste.net/356118
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2017-06-07T23:25:56Z akkad: so sorry if off topic, what caused the ISO lisp standard to fail?
2017-06-07T23:25:59Z akkad: was CL that popular?
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2017-06-07T23:44:55Z pjb: Yes.
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2017-06-07T23:47:54Z akkad: ahh
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2017-06-07T23:50:18Z akkad: thanks pjb
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