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2017-05-28T00:19:59Z racketnoob: hello everybody
2017-05-28T00:20:24Z racketnoob: I'm trying to learn some scheme and tried to get an interactive interpreter in racket
2017-05-28T00:20:38Z racketnoob: (that's the reason for the nickname, disregard it)
2017-05-28T00:20:55Z racketnoob: but I'm sort of lost in it
2017-05-28T00:21:44Z racketnoob: I tried with mit-gnu scheme but the interface is really unfriendly for me (I'm a windows user)
2017-05-28T00:22:55Z racketnoob: what other interactive interpreter could I try? nothing fancy, just a commad line interactive shell
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2017-05-28T06:01:30Z akkad: compose not found.
2017-05-28T06:03:37Z akkad: is there a srfi that brings in compose?
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2017-05-28T19:03:32Z noethics: is there any issue with a reader first reading in all sexps *exactly the same way* then processing special forms?
2017-05-28T19:04:04Z noethics: my method seems to be fine but i don't know if my logic is totally wrong since i'm having a hard time parsing some certain things
2017-05-28T19:05:27Z noethics: actually it's totally the logic nvm
2017-05-28T19:06:29Z noethics: basically all sexps being of the form (sexp . '()) screws things up for me in the case of special forms
2017-05-28T19:07:18Z noethics: my last parser was smarter and had special forms baked in so i never had this problem
2017-05-28T19:09:32Z pjb: Some scheme have reader macros like Common Lisp, I hear.
2017-05-28T19:10:02Z akkad: pjb yeah, like sagittarius/gerbil
2017-05-28T19:14:00Z noethics: i think i need to have different kinds of nils
2017-05-28T19:14:37Z noethics: i should have just not rewritten the reader :<
2017-05-28T19:14:46Z ecraven: why would you need different nils?
2017-05-28T19:15:11Z noethics: right now it can't differentiate between '() and a nil inserted by the reader
2017-05-28T19:15:18Z pjb: So the point is that a reader macro may be activated from the toplevel in the middle, so you cannot just read all the sexps.  The semantics usually calls for a read eval loop, and reading after having compiled and installed a reader macro will be different.
2017-05-28T19:15:42Z ecraven: noethics: there is no nil in Scheme ;) at least none that is differentiable from '()
2017-05-28T19:15:42Z noethics: pjb, i have macros expand on the second pass
2017-05-28T19:15:50Z pjb: too late.
2017-05-28T19:15:56Z pjb: reader macros work when reading.
2017-05-28T19:16:13Z pjb: But you can exclude them.
2017-05-28T19:16:15Z noethics: would you know if it was or wasn't a reader macro if read had two passes and you got the same result?
2017-05-28T19:16:54Z pjb: the question is whether what you read is what was intended or not, not whether you read it the same twice.
2017-05-28T19:16:56Z noethics: ecraven, so in scheme yes but the implementation might :P
2017-05-28T19:18:22Z noethics: pjb, i don't know if i understand. i can see why expanding during read could be more efficient
2017-05-28T19:18:33Z noethics: but is it theoretically impossible to have a second pass work the same way?
2017-05-28T19:19:06Z ecraven: noethics: but how would you read custom syntax if you read and then process?
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2017-05-28T19:19:33Z ecraven: like I've added #.(.....) to MIT/GNU Scheme by dispatching on reading #.( and then doing something completely custom at the instance of reading it
2017-05-28T19:19:34Z noethics: my first read pass just reads all the sexps into cells
2017-05-28T19:19:40Z ecraven: should work the same in other Schemes
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2017-05-28T19:19:44Z noethics: then i run a pass on all the cells to disambiguate forms and process macros
2017-05-28T19:19:50Z ecraven: noethics: but reader macros are about not reading sexps, but other things
2017-05-28T19:20:37Z noethics: ive found that my parsers become a lot harder to reason about when i do everything during one pass
2017-05-28T19:20:56Z noethics: ecraven, i know i just don't see the problem of doing it in 2 passes
2017-05-28T19:21:27Z ecraven: noethics: but how would you actually read #X73[3 4 5] if you have no idea *how* to read it?
2017-05-28T19:21:56Z noethics: that would fail
2017-05-28T19:22:12Z ecraven: but that is (imho) exactly what reader macros are useful for
2017-05-28T19:22:16Z ecraven: otherwise, it's just a
2017-05-28T19:22:18Z ecraven: (normal) ma8cro
2017-05-28T19:22:24Z noethics: i see
2017-05-28T19:22:49Z ecraven: afaiu, it's not called reader macro because it is called when reading stuff, but because it can totally change what the reader does
2017-05-28T19:22:52Z noethics: that's roughly the only case a reader macro wouldnt work how im doing it
2017-05-28T19:23:08Z ecraven: noethics: but isn't that the only reason for actually *having* reader macros?
2017-05-28T19:23:14Z noethics: i guess
2017-05-28T19:23:22Z ecraven: what's the difference between your "reader macros" and your normal macros?
2017-05-28T19:23:34Z noethics: i don't have reaader macros
2017-05-28T19:23:46Z noethics: unless you consider special form processing reader macros
2017-05-28T19:23:52Z noethics: in that sense they're exactly the same
2017-05-28T19:24:01Z ecraven: some interesting examples: https://gist.github.com/chaitanyagupta/9324402
2017-05-28T19:24:16Z noethics: thx
2017-05-28T19:24:22Z ecraven: it depends on whether you actually *want* expensible reader macros, but remember this:
2017-05-28T19:24:39Z ecraven: to support all the different #... things Scheme already has, you need to dispatch on whatever comes after the #
2017-05-28T19:24:57Z ecraven: it wouldn't be too hard to make it possible to register other custom readers, that work in the same framework
2017-05-28T19:25:06Z noethics: true
2017-05-28T19:25:11Z ecraven: all the serious Schemes have a way to register new #-readers, I think
2017-05-28T19:25:15Z noethics: i can probably work that into my recursive descent parser
2017-05-28T19:25:19Z noethics: without much headache
2017-05-28T19:25:35Z noethics: the problem is that i have a chicken and egg problem, i'd have to eval before i parsed anything
2017-05-28T19:25:43Z noethics: parsed beyond just sexp representation
2017-05-28T19:25:53Z noethics: my method here can't feasibly support reader macros i guess
2017-05-28T19:26:14Z ecraven: why? if you read a (, you call read-list, which calls read-element until it hits a )
2017-05-28T19:26:24Z ecraven: read-element must dispatch depending on what it encounters
2017-05-28T19:26:39Z ecraven: if it reads #X, it could call my custom reader for that thing above, if it reads #(, it calls read-vector, etc.
2017-05-28T19:26:41Z noethics: that's fine but once it parses the sexp it has no idea what it is
2017-05-28T19:27:00Z noethics: id have to do the classification inline and then eval it if it's a reader macro
2017-05-28T19:27:03Z ecraven: noethics: it doesn't parse the sexp, it just constructs a list out of whatever read-element returns
2017-05-28T19:27:08Z noethics: which completely defeats the purpose of me doing it this way :P
2017-05-28T19:27:20Z ecraven: hm.. sorry, I don't understand your architecture well enough to actually comment on this
2017-05-28T19:27:27Z C-Keen: noethics: you are conflating constructing an AST and manipulating it
2017-05-28T19:27:36Z noethics: i'm not conflating that
2017-05-28T19:28:14Z noethics: ecraven, i totally understand how i *would* implement them
2017-05-28T19:28:21Z ecraven: I don't see how reader macros make the AST more complex, a custom reader macro just returns a new AST node, just like the default reader macros for #t, #f, #(... ' ` ,@ and so on
2017-05-28T19:28:31Z noethics: i'm glad i asked here since it turns out my new method for parsing isn't sound :P
2017-05-28T19:29:06Z ecraven: noethics: how do you handle ' ` , ,@ right now? ad-hoc parse them all?
2017-05-28T19:29:10Z noethics: yes
2017-05-28T19:29:20Z ecraven: maybe look at a few other schemes' way of implementing the reader
2017-05-28T19:29:30Z ecraven: I just know the mit one, it's not hard to understand
2017-05-28T19:29:31Z noethics: ive implemented it *properly* before
2017-05-28T19:29:45Z noethics: this is a new scheme interpreter i wrote this weekend on amphetamines
2017-05-28T19:29:52Z noethics: i had this brilliant idea to simplify my parser
2017-05-28T19:30:55Z noethics: that said, besides my ambiguity issue that's solvable and reader macros, it definitely did simplify my reader a lot
2017-05-28T19:31:06Z ecraven: how does it work?
2017-05-28T19:31:14Z noethics: it reads in 2 passes
2017-05-28T19:31:32Z noethics: first pass, it reads the exp into just cells no matter what forms it contains
2017-05-28T19:31:33Z ecraven: is that really simpler than recursive descent with reader macros?
2017-05-28T19:31:39Z noethics: second pass, it parses it and returns the result
2017-05-28T19:31:52Z noethics: it is simpler for sure
2017-05-28T19:32:35Z ecraven: well, it needs two passes, and it doesn't actually work :-/
2017-05-28T19:33:15Z noethics: that's because of an oversight
2017-05-28T19:33:31Z noethics: the two passes isn't ideal but like i said, simpler :P not more efficient
2017-05-28T19:33:53Z ecraven: why is two passes simpler than one pass?
2017-05-28T19:33:53Z noethics: i'm also not saying this is better. it is ONLY simpler, for me. and it's just a toy
2017-05-28T19:34:21Z ecraven: yea, not trying to disparage you, I'm just not sure I understand your reasoning :-/ probably is entirely my foult
2017-05-28T19:34:25Z noethics: because when i add new forms, when i add anyhting, it's just adding a new parser to a list of parsers
2017-05-28T19:34:45Z noethics: i don't have to think about where to put it in my recursive descent parser, or about breaking anything
2017-05-28T19:34:59Z ecraven: noethics: ah, so you parse IF into a totally different AST node than a normal application, for example?
2017-05-28T19:35:06Z noethics: yes
2017-05-28T19:35:57Z ecraven: well, due to the simple syntax of Scheme there shouldn't be many places where you need to add it (exactly one for most things, I think)
2017-05-28T19:36:20Z noethics: what one thing?
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2017-05-28T19:37:00Z noethics: my problem is currently: lambda in some cases parses as ((lambda node) . '()), so it's indistinguishable from an application
2017-05-28T19:37:02Z ecraven: do you handle LET and friends in the reader?
2017-05-28T19:37:17Z noethics: i handle let, lambda, everyting, on the second pass
2017-05-28T19:38:29Z ecraven: personally, I'd use the first phase for reading things (including custom reader macros), then run a parser over the resulting s-expression structure to construct an actual AST. you can re-use that parser for `eval', for example
2017-05-28T19:38:49Z noethics: that's what i do
2017-05-28T19:39:13Z ecraven: it's not what you said, you said you cannot just add custom dispatching reader macros
2017-05-28T19:39:15Z noethics: but without the including reader macros part, which would default the purpose of doing it in 2 passes i think
2017-05-28T19:39:26Z ecraven: why, it would still be just 2 passes?
2017-05-28T19:39:28Z noethics: defeat*
2017-05-28T19:39:45Z noethics: well what you said there had two passes too, no?
2017-05-28T19:40:16Z ecraven: yes, I'm not advocating against using multiple passes (though to me they are not passes ;)
2017-05-28T19:40:32Z noethics: so my last scheme had only one pass
2017-05-28T19:40:42Z ecraven: in mit-scheme, a custom syntax handler has the following signature:
2017-05-28T19:41:01Z ecraven: (define (handler:dot port db ctx char1 char2) ...)
2017-05-28T19:41:18Z ecraven: you can register that handler for #.
2017-05-28T19:41:24Z noethics: i see
2017-05-28T19:41:25Z ecraven: so whenever the reader sees #., it calls that handler
2017-05-28T19:41:42Z ecraven: which then reads from `port' as much as it needs to, and then returns an object
2017-05-28T19:41:45Z noethics: and then it can either do whatever or dispatch to the vector handler, right
2017-05-28T19:41:46Z ecraven: an s-expression
2017-05-28T19:41:59Z noethics: i understand completely
2017-05-28T19:42:02Z ecraven: yes, it can call `(read port)' to read "normally"
2017-05-28T19:42:17Z ecraven: like the vector handler, which just calls read until it sees )
2017-05-28T19:42:39Z ecraven: you might have something like this in place already, to handle all the normal #.. stuff
2017-05-28T19:44:20Z noethics: ecraven, my problem is that if i can add special handlers to the first pass, then it's already too "smart" and i need to maintain it
2017-05-28T19:44:50Z noethics: the point of doing the first pass naively and returning everything as a sexp first is so that entire bit is abstracted away from the actual parsing
2017-05-28T19:45:03Z noethics: for me, i don't think reader macros are all that useful either. i probably won't implement them
2017-05-28T19:45:29Z wasamasa: but why?
2017-05-28T19:45:38Z noethics: why what?
2017-05-28T19:45:42Z wasamasa: they're not exactly hard to do, unless you want to expose them to the user
2017-05-28T19:45:45Z ecraven: starting from here, you can see how mit registers all the readers for the usual stuff http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/mit-scheme.git/tree/src/runtime/parse.scm#n249
2017-05-28T19:45:52Z noethics: i just explained why
2017-05-28T19:45:53Z ecraven: wasamasa: even that isn't that hard, is it?
2017-05-28T19:46:03Z noethics: it's not about being hard :D it
2017-05-28T19:46:09Z wasamasa: ecraven: well, it's tricky if you want to allow the user to define their own at runtime
2017-05-28T19:46:10Z noethics: 's about the slippery slope of my first pass doing too much
2017-05-28T19:46:11Z ecraven: noethics: I don't quite understand your reasoning, but then, I don't have to ;)
2017-05-28T19:46:26Z ecraven: wasamasa: is it? you "just" need a vector of dispatching characters
2017-05-28T19:46:43Z wasamasa: ecraven: yeah, but how do you handle code that relies on those?
2017-05-28T19:47:18Z ecraven: wasamasa: what do you mean?
2017-05-28T19:47:37Z ecraven: you mean, how to I ensure that the right reader macros are loaded to actually load a given file?
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2017-05-28T19:47:51Z ecraven: isn't that the user's problem, to actually load things in the right order?
2017-05-28T19:48:06Z wasamasa: more like isolating them from each other
2017-05-28T19:48:24Z wasamasa: IIRC someone wrote a CL package for having per-package reader macros
2017-05-28T19:48:29Z ecraven: wasamasa: easiest: they are global, they have the same conflicts as any other global resource
2017-05-28T19:52:08Z wasamasa: could have been https://github.com/melisgl/named-readtables
2017-05-28T19:52:24Z ecraven: wasamasa: mit actually has per-port read-tables
2017-05-28T19:52:37Z ecraven: in addition to the global one
2017-05-28T19:52:46Z noethics: that would be useful maybe
2017-05-28T19:53:09Z noethics: it means i can have different syntax coming in from the rear m8
2017-05-28T19:53:17Z ecraven: aye
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2017-05-28T20:00:46Z noethics: do you ever get into a deep thought about existence and simplicity when you first get lambdas implemented in a new scheme
2017-05-28T20:01:10Z noethics: and realize how almost every other computation can come from that simple primitive
2017-05-28T20:02:27Z noethics: it's more than just about repeating turing and shit when you do it yourself and understand it
2017-05-28T20:06:11Z noethics: scheme itself is far too complex to embody this simple concept though
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2017-05-28T20:08:15Z noethics: if only the pragmatists didn't get to it~ >:)
2017-05-28T20:09:24Z noethics: or if only guy l steele didn't write javascript
2017-05-28T20:09:28Z noethics: one of those
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2017-05-28T20:27:01Z noethics: herein, my problem https://dpaste.de/ZJxF/raw
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2017-05-28T20:38:00Z rocx: what r7rs implementation would ya'll recommend? preferrably one without silly impl-specific expansions or odd gimmicks?
2017-05-28T20:38:33Z noethics: what do you want to use it for
2017-05-28T20:39:01Z rocx: general-purpose use.
2017-05-28T20:39:29Z rocx: reason i'm asking is because at least the case with chibi-scheme, libraries seem to have to be broken up into some hierarchy on the filesystem.
2017-05-28T20:39:47Z noethics: chibi-scheme is more for embedded use, not general purpose
2017-05-28T20:40:16Z noethics: for real general purpose i can't answer your question
2017-05-28T20:40:23Z noethics: someone here surely can though
2017-05-28T20:40:47Z noethics: i had okay time with larceny
2017-05-28T20:40:58Z rocx: if all else fails, i can try to turn r6rs from chez into r7rs.
2017-05-28T20:41:07Z noethics: that's what i actually use the most
2017-05-28T20:41:11Z noethics: chez
2017-05-28T20:41:19Z noethics: the reply is GOOD
2017-05-28T20:41:22Z noethics: depl*
2017-05-28T20:41:22Z rocx: ha. wonder if it's ever going to update to the new spec.
2017-05-28T20:41:23Z noethics: repl* omfg
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2017-05-28T20:51:20Z ecraven: chibi is nice enough for general use too
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2017-05-28T20:55:13Z noethics: it's really minimal is all
2017-05-28T20:55:18Z noethics: and the repl sucks
2017-05-28T20:59:01Z ecraven: noethics: what are you missing? I wouldn't call it minimal, it even has an FFI
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2017-05-28T20:59:11Z ecraven: also, I have a swank backend for chibi somewhere, that is nice for a repl ;)
2017-05-28T20:59:21Z ecraven: and geiser has very basic support for it too
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2017-05-28T21:02:21Z noethics: ecraven, i'm not personally missing anything, but if you're looking to use scheme for general purpose you probably want extensions
2017-05-28T21:02:34Z noethics: a good stdlib of sorts, or plugin system
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2017-05-28T21:20:33Z ecraven: noethics: doesn't chibi have all that? it even has snow for even more extensions
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2017-05-28T21:21:06Z ecraven: it isn't my main scheme, but when I have used it, I've always found libraries to do what I needed. of course, ymmv
2017-05-28T21:21:11Z noethics: idk i was under the assumption it didn't. i know it just implements r7rs libaries
2017-05-28T21:21:24Z ecraven: it has much more than only r7rs
2017-05-28T21:21:26Z noethics: and i saw that repo thing
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2017-05-28T21:21:41Z ecraven: http://synthcode.com/scheme/chibi/#h2_StandardModules
2017-05-28T21:21:44Z noethics: but id still use CHICKEN over it, if i wanted to get a lot of work done
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2017-05-28T21:22:13Z ecraven: of course, everyone is allowed to pick their own schemes, but chicken is very much not full r7rs atm, whereas chibi is
2017-05-28T21:22:22Z noethics: ik
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2017-05-28T21:22:30Z noethics: i use chibi as a calculator
2017-05-28T21:22:33Z noethics: because it's so good
2017-05-28T21:22:50Z noethics: i havent explored 3rd party repls in scheme much, i'm a casual user
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2017-05-28T21:23:08Z ecraven: noethics: I think the main cross-platform one is geiser
2017-05-28T21:23:27Z ecraven: I have usable swanks for chibi and mit, I think chicken had one at some point too
2017-05-28T21:23:39Z ecraven: swank as in slime, the common lisp thing
2017-05-28T21:23:44Z noethics: ic
2017-05-28T21:24:01Z noethics: will investigate
2017-05-28T21:24:17Z ecraven: if you want the chibi one, ping me, I think I haven't put it on github yet
2017-05-28T21:24:22Z ecraven: need to clean it up a bit
2017-05-28T21:24:36Z noethics: i def do want it
2017-05-28T21:24:49Z noethics: put it on github though i bet a lot of people will use it
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2017-05-28T21:36:58Z akkad: ecraven: would love a link to it
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2017-05-28T21:52:47Z rocx: noethics: geiser-mode. makes any scheme with a poor repl better.
2017-05-28T21:53:18Z noethics: the problem is that i use vim
2017-05-28T21:53:31Z noethics: but i've wanted to switch to emacs
2017-05-28T21:53:45Z noethics: i think i can manage it in evil mode
2017-05-28T21:54:05Z rocx: evil's good. a bit too invasive for my tastes but once you go hjkl you don't go back.
2017-05-28T21:59:49Z noethics: yeah
2017-05-28T22:00:07Z noethics: do you write your own elisp all the time?
2017-05-28T22:00:16Z noethics: that seems so good
2017-05-28T22:00:28Z noethics: that's why i want to switch to emacs. vimscript is really pitiful
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2017-05-28T22:13:59Z rocx: noethics: not all the time.
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2017-05-28T22:15:45Z rocx: but it is more of a constant twiddling once you find something that bothers you.
2017-05-28T22:16:05Z rocx: same itch when you feel you can automate a repetitive task on a machine.
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