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2017-05-26T06:38:40Z akkad: if ,d in the repl describes a function/var how do you typically see the definition of the function?
2017-05-26T06:40:51Z wasamasa: you don't
2017-05-26T06:41:25Z wasamasa: there's been a proposal for saving the source along when defining the function, but nothing happened to that
2017-05-26T06:55:19Z akkad: k
2017-05-26T06:56:58Z akkad: what is a table datastructure? is that scheme? or just gerbil
2017-05-26T06:58:04Z akkad: ahh hash-table
2017-05-26T07:01:14Z grublet: you know why i like scheme? because i have a parentheses fetish
2017-05-26T07:02:35Z akkad: CL has that too
2017-05-26T07:02:45Z akkad: but srfi's are sooo damn nice and modern
2017-05-26T07:08:17Z grublet: akkad: cl has parentheses?
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2017-05-26T08:08:06Z ski: jackdaniel,pjb,catern : fwiw, procedural debuggers in Prolog systems typically can go back in time and retry a call in more detail that ended up not behaving as expected. but as you say, this doesn't roll back side-effects like I/O. otoh, the procedural debugger in Mercury *does* do that (by recording a trace of results of primitive I/O operations, and just reading off that, rather than performing the side-effects again, the second time)
2017-05-26T08:13:45Z jackdaniel: ski: it won't work if you get back in time and perform another kind of query on the same stream - because you couldn't have saved query which didn't happen
2017-05-26T08:13:57Z jackdaniel: but previous I/O operation has already changed its state
2017-05-26T08:17:15Z ski: well, you can't, in Mercury
2017-05-26T08:18:27Z ski: any operation which might generate a different result, when run a second time on the same inputs would in some way end up using such a traced primitive operation
2017-05-26T08:21:23Z ski: so there is no "get back in time and perform another kind of query on the same stream" -- if you get back in time, you get back to the same state that you were in previously, and so things will deterministically proceed the same way as last time, because any actually nondeterministic operation will have had its result (or rather the results of the primitive such operations that it depended on) recorded
2017-05-26T08:23:32Z jackdaniel: that doesn't sound like a continuation if you have to execute *exactly* the same way as you did, it's more execution recording
2017-05-26T08:24:34Z jackdaniel: it doesn't sound like time travel either imo, more a videotape with a movie you can watch
2017-05-26T08:25:10Z ski: correct. (i didn't claim it was like a continuation). i was only thinking it could be interesting, as an approach to "time travel", in connection with debugging
2017-05-26T08:25:39Z ski: well, it depends on which philosophical school of time travel you subscribe to :)
2017-05-26T08:25:55Z jackdaniel: heh
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2017-05-26T08:29:16Z ski: regarding continuations, semantically one can layer (data, not control) state either "above" or "below" continuations. with one layering, restoring a continuation will also restore the state. with the other (which is what `call-with-continuation' and `box'&`unbox'&`set-box!' (say) gives you), the state will not be restored
2017-05-26T08:29:53Z ski: one could also imagine using both layerings, having two kinds of state ..
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2017-05-26T08:36:07Z ski . o O ( "Time Travel - Visiting the Past" <http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/time_travel1.htm>,"'The' Modal Fallacy" <http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/modal_fallacy.htm>,"Lectures and Class Notes" <http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/contents.htm#lectures> by Norman Swartz)
2017-05-26T08:39:51Z ski: ("What _is_ logically impossible is that BOTH one _travels into the past_ AND _changes the past_ (from what it was). But so long as one does not change the past, there is no logical contradiction in positing travel into the past.")
2017-05-26T08:40:38Z z0d: so what happens if you travel back and try to change something? are you yanked back to the present? :->
2017-05-26T08:41:26Z ski: well, his argument is simply that (de facto) you never do that
2017-05-26T08:42:15Z ski: iow, that whatever actions you take were already part of past history, so not a change from something else which "used to have happened"
2017-05-26T08:42:23Z z0d: so if you travel back and take a step, leaving a footprint in the dust. does that change the past?
2017-05-26T08:42:47Z ski: (e.g. with the grandfather paradox, that you simply (de facto) do not kill your grandfather)
2017-05-26T08:43:27Z ski: not according to him. i suppose one could express it as fulfilling the past, being a contributing factor to how the past got the way it did
2017-05-26T08:44:32Z jackdaniel: that's why Common Lisp doesn't bother with continuations ;-)
2017-05-26T08:45:47Z ski: (btw, if one imagines that information from the past can be essentially lost (at least locally/personally), then one could perhaps imagine that time travel could take one back to *another* "possible past", that the one which in some sense "already happened" .. but one wouldn't then be able to tell any difference)
2017-05-26T08:47:15Z ski: hehe, continuations are different, since you can pass along a value when jumping through it, which can be different from the value passed through last time (e.g. with the "normal return", if any)
2017-05-26T08:49:30Z ski: (of course CL could be described (in a useful way) semantically in terms of continuations, just like pretty much any other general programming language. but that's obviously different from having, first-class, continuation values, available in the language itself)
2017-05-26T08:54:30Z ski . o O ( "Programming with Continuations" (milestones, devils, and angels) by Daniel P. Friedman,Christopher T. Haynes,Eugene Kohlbecker in 1983-11 at <https://www.cs.indiana.edu/ftp/techreports/TR151.pdf> )
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2017-05-26T12:01:09Z Steverman: hi friends
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2017-05-26T16:05:42Z jcowan: than
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2017-05-26T22:32:56Z akkad wonders what gambit does that makes it soo much faster than chicken
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2017-05-26T23:34:56Z edgar-rft: akkad: gambit doesn't need eggs for reproduction
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