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2017-05-01T01:38:55Z thevaliantx: should I be learning Scheme or its parent Lisp?  I have Dr Racket, but am having problems getting syntax to work with it from YouTube videos
2017-05-01T01:41:23Z thevaliantx: As I understand it ... Lisp -> Scheme -> Racket .... am I spending my time wisely with the Dr Racket software and Racket book?
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2017-05-01T01:44:45Z qu1j0t3: thevaliantx: what's your actual objective?
2017-05-01T01:47:09Z thevaliantx: Not really sure, to be honest.  My son and I are learning programming together.  He's been learning Python through books, but I wanted to introduce him to something different.  Functional programming looks appealing to me, and I've read that learning FP helps one to become a better programmer in general.
2017-05-01T01:47:49Z thevaliantx: The syntax of the Lisp and Schemes look nice to me, and to me little things like putting operators before the numbers 'makes sense'.
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2017-05-01T02:52:42Z Riastradh: wingo: Huh, I see you're messing with Concurrent ML lately!
2017-05-01T02:53:11Z Riastradh: wingo: I wrote a Concurrent ML implementation in Scheme a few years ago: https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scheme-cml/
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2017-05-01T02:54:20Z Riastradh: (Used the word `rendezvous' instead of `event', because it represents when two processes both agree to coordinate, e.g. handing off a message from sender to receiver on a synchronous channel.)
2017-05-01T02:56:54Z Riastradh: wingo: (Actually, I wrote two implementations of CML -- the earlier one isn't as good: https://mumble.net/~campbell/darcs/scm-rendezvous/)
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2017-05-01T02:57:55Z Riastradh: wingo: For the second one I wrote (scheme-cml), I put a good deal of effort into making it interrupt-safe, so that if you hit ^C at the REPL and kill threads, internal data structures don't get corrupted.
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2017-05-01T03:06:53Z Riastradh: wingo: Anyway, you might find it interesting, or you might find it to be a boring rehash of the work you already did months ago.  Not sure whether it ever got published, but scheme-cml was based on a preprint or tech report or something from around the same time, ~2009ish, updated from the original mid-'90s CML research.
2017-05-01T03:09:06Z Riastradh: wingo: I cleverly neglected to write down a citation for it, apparently, but I think it might have been this: http://manticore.cs.uchicago.edu/papers/damp08.pdf
2017-05-01T03:13:44Z Riastradh: wingo: Hmm, it may have been this instead: http://manticore.cs.uchicago.edu/papers/icfp09-parallel-cml.pdf
2017-05-01T03:16:59Z Riastradh: Hmm.  Maybe I didn't finish making it all safe to interrupt, according to the TODO I left in 2012: https://mumble.net/~campbell/tmp/TODO.scheme-cml
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2017-05-01T03:24:43Z Riastradh: wingo: Also, I think your psq.scm balance condition is wrong.  See Yoichi Hirai and Kazu Yamamoto, `Balancing weight-balanced trees', Journal of Functional Programming 21(3), pp. 287--307, 2011.  https://yoichihirai.com/bst.pdf
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2017-05-01T03:28:20Z Riastradh: wingo: Oops, I see you already knew about the ICFP 2009 CML paper, never mind!
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2017-05-01T20:59:16Z theseb: are strings atoms?
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2017-05-01T21:07:04Z CORDIC: theseb: Yes.  Atom is anything that is not a cons pair.
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2017-05-01T21:11:30Z theseb: CORDIC: it gets odd for strings because they can be divided so you COULD represent them with lists no?
2017-05-01T21:12:43Z CORDIC: Good point.
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2017-05-01T21:31:26Z gwatt: no.
2017-05-01T21:31:47Z wasamasa: I find atom? somewhat screwy to define
2017-05-01T21:31:53Z wasamasa: better use pair? and null? instead
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2017-05-01T21:32:18Z gwatt: At least r7rs says that no object may satisfy more than one of a given set of predicates at a time
2017-05-01T21:32:53Z gwatt: string? and pair? are both listed, so you cannot transparently implement strings as list of chars
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2017-05-01T21:35:14Z gwatt: wasamasa: atom? the same as not pair?, no?
2017-05-01T21:36:07Z DeeEff: On a slightly less related note: I find atom? to be one of the worst predicates to define in something like mini-kanren
2017-05-01T21:36:11Z wasamasa: that's how CHICKEN defines it, but The Little Schemer doesn't
2017-05-01T21:36:36Z DeeEff: it's always such a pain to try and say "this isn't _" in relational programming
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2017-05-01T21:38:55Z wasamasa: (define atom? (lambda (x) (and (not (pair? x)) (not (null? x)))))
2017-05-01T21:39:21Z wasamasa: so, CHICKEN considers the empty list an atom, The Little Schemer doesn't
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2017-05-01T21:53:47Z gwatt: chez and guile say atom? is not pair?
2017-05-01T21:55:44Z aeth: I love the ? syntax but wow that line is hard to parse
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2017-05-01T21:56:11Z aeth: (gwatt's I mean)
2017-05-01T21:57:27Z aeth: Strings shouldn't be lists. You get all of the disadvantages of C-strings (null-terminated instead of NUL-terminated, though), with less performance.
2017-05-01T22:00:19Z DeeEff: strings are closer to vectors if anything
2017-05-01T22:00:27Z aeth: Strings *are* vectors.
2017-05-01T22:00:35Z DeeEff: fixed size, typically prefer random access, etc
2017-05-01T22:00:57Z aeth: In r7rs there's a (probably) very intentional parallel between vectors, strings, and bytevectors.
2017-05-01T22:01:17Z turbofail: except they aren't (usually) random access, when using utf-8
2017-05-01T22:01:50Z aeth: turbofail: Most languages internally use utf-32, using more memory for the sake of keeping things simple internally.
2017-05-01T22:01:56Z aeth: Although they might write utf-8.
2017-05-01T22:01:57Z DeeEff: typically implemented as such, but I wouldn't say are as if that's the only way to implement strings
2017-05-01T22:01:57Z DeeEff: IIRC there's some crazy nonsense about strings as b-trees out there somewhere. Can't remember if it was closure or something else
2017-05-01T22:01:58Z DeeEff: **clojure
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2017-05-01T22:02:36Z aeth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-32#Use
2017-05-01T22:02:36Z turbofail: it's how strings are represented in spidermonkey JS
2017-05-01T22:02:50Z turbofail: well, they use ropes, not b-trees
2017-05-01T22:02:53Z qu1j0t3: well, Clojure Vectors are HAMT's. 32-fanout trees. But I don't know if it uses them for Strings. (Woudln't it use java.lang.String?)
2017-05-01T22:03:04Z turbofail: it does use java.lang.String
2017-05-01T22:03:29Z turbofail: b-trees are used in some text editor widgets
2017-05-01T22:06:05Z turbofail: anyway java.lang.String is also not random-access, as it uses UTF-16 internally which is variable-length
2017-05-01T22:06:14Z aeth: Sorry, I meant to say "Although they might read/write utf-8"
2017-05-01T22:06:40Z aeth: Yes, older languages use utf-16 internally. Iirc, some are old enough that utf-16 wasn't variable-length when they made the decision!
2017-05-01T22:07:17Z aeth: But I think most of the newer switchers to Unicode prefer utf-32 (And that in turn will inevitably in the long run be variable-length, too. So it goes.)
2017-05-01T22:08:14Z aeth: oh, okay, according to Wikipedia utf-16 was always variable-length, but it is a successor to the fixed-width ucs-2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-16
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2017-05-01T22:09:53Z aeth: I know if I were writing a Scheme from scratch with direct native compilation to assembly, I'd use UTF-32.
2017-05-01T22:10:21Z aeth: RAM is plentiful for most applications.
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2017-05-01T22:10:48Z aeth: If the tradeoff is increased RAM usage, imo, do it.
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2017-05-01T22:15:11Z turbofail: https://blog.mozilla.org/javascript/2014/07/21/slimmer-and-faster-javascript-strings-in-firefox/
2017-05-01T22:15:29Z aeth: Wow, the Samsung Galaxy S8 has 4 GB RAM. I remember when phones and tablets had 512 MB.
2017-05-01T22:15:46Z aeth: Pretty soon, they'll be at 8 GB. For all except niche uses, do sacrifice RAM.
2017-05-01T22:16:41Z aeth: turbofail: Anything web-related isn't a good example for anything imo. The whole stack is awful, mainly because of the backwards-compatible-forever nature of it.
2017-05-01T22:17:50Z turbofail: ok, but that's several major platforms that don't use UTF-32 internally
2017-05-01T22:18:23Z aeth: And at one point, it was 100% of major platforms that didn't use UTF-32 internally.
2017-05-01T22:19:32Z aeth: Not all languages use strings equally, either. Languages that neither have enums nor symbols/keywords will probably use strings more often than Scheme, for things where Scheme would use symbols (or keywords, if supported).
2017-05-01T22:21:31Z aeth: turbofail: Interestingly, it looks like my "backwards compatibility" argument seems to hold. "Why not use UTF8?" "(1) Too much work to switch, (2) an algorithm that only works with ASCII, (3) and too much work to switch."
2017-05-01T22:22:36Z aeth: Web browsers have different issues than a Scheme, though. They *do* have to run on mobile (e.g. Firefox for Android), where some devices still do just have 512 MB RAM.
2017-05-01T22:22:53Z aeth: Especially in 2014.
2017-05-01T22:24:03Z turbofail: but what if i want to be able to write mobile apps in scheme?
2017-05-01T22:24:52Z aeth: Good luck getting it on the App Store.
2017-05-01T22:24:53Z turbofail: or what if i want to be able to pay less for hosting?
2017-05-01T22:25:02Z turbofail: people have written scheme apps that have gotten into the App Store
2017-05-01T22:25:19Z aeth: I thought Apple didn't like interpreters and didn't like GC?
2017-05-01T22:25:48Z wasamasa: no interpreters indeed, but dunno about no GC
2017-05-01T22:26:01Z turbofail: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/gambit-repl/id434534076?mt=8
2017-05-01T22:26:04Z wasamasa: CHICKEN managed to get into the app store
2017-05-01T22:26:07Z aeth: wasamasa: Well, Apple certainly doesn't like dynamic languages that might not necessarily do the same thing after-approval than before.
2017-05-01T22:26:07Z turbofail: there's an interpreter
2017-05-01T22:26:16Z aeth: wasamasa: Is that the *desktop* app store?
2017-05-01T22:26:19Z aeth: Different rules
2017-05-01T22:26:27Z wasamasa: why, no, the mobile one
2017-05-01T22:26:31Z aeth: interesting
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2017-05-01T22:27:13Z aeth: I think the restriction might be against JIT interpreters, not interpreters in general. I could be wrong.
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2017-05-01T22:27:23Z aeth: There is *some* restriction that could make it tricky for some languages, I can't quite remember.
2017-05-01T22:27:37Z wasamasa: well, that would rule out every modern JS interpreter
2017-05-01T22:27:43Z aeth: It does.
2017-05-01T22:27:43Z wasamasa: but then, they themselves don't have to play by the rules
2017-05-01T22:27:48Z aeth: Apple doesn't support third party web browsers.
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2017-05-01T22:27:58Z aeth: "Firefox", "Chrome", etc., on iOS are just wrappers over Safari
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2017-05-01T22:28:46Z aeth: Meanwhile, there is at least one non-Chrome web browser on Android, Firefox.
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2017-05-01T22:29:18Z turbofail: http://www.lambdanative.org/
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2017-05-01T22:29:36Z turbofail: being used in a legit app right now
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2017-05-01T22:30:27Z aeth: Iirc, iOS is against certain *dynamic* features, which would probably disqualify a feature-complete CL, but probably wouldn't disqualify a standard-following Scheme.
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2017-05-01T22:30:37Z aeth: What they don't want is apps changing after they review them, without being reviewed again.
2017-05-01T22:30:47Z aeth: And they also don't want competing JS engines.
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2017-05-01T22:32:21Z turbofail: "Apple started officially allowing programming language interpreters in the iOS App store late Q3 of 2010 (they changed their SDK agreement to clarify this). However interpreters (except for Javascript in a UIWebview) are not allowed to run any downloaded code. Only code built into the app, or typed in by the user."
2017-05-01T22:32:31Z turbofail: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4891642/interpreter-for-the-iphone
2017-05-01T22:32:44Z aeth: Thank you for being better at finding it than I was.
2017-05-01T22:32:46Z turbofail: anyway even if apple didn't allow it, android would
2017-05-01T22:32:55Z turbofail: and i don't have an iphone
2017-05-01T22:33:32Z aeth: Yes.
2017-05-01T22:34:01Z aeth: Apple, even if they don't disallow GC, clearly don't like it, though.
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