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2016-09-02T03:05:39Z chus: Hi there, qq
2016-09-02T03:05:54Z chus: I have implemented an algorithm and I'm trying to figure out its time complexity
2016-09-02T03:06:17Z chus: I have been measuring the number of operations it take depending on the input set length
2016-09-02T03:08:02Z chus: I tried several inputs and counted the operations,
2016-09-02T03:08:22Z chus: for instance, a set with 20 elements took 1M operations to complete
2016-09-02T03:08:34Z chus: for a 40 elements set, it took 4M
2016-09-02T03:09:33Z chus: for 80 was 16M
2016-09-02T03:09:34Z chus: and so on
2016-09-02T03:09:52Z chus: 20,40,80,160,320
2016-09-02T03:10:15Z chus: 1M, 4M, 16M, 64M, etc..
2016-09-02T03:10:49Z chus: doubling the input size make the number operations required to solve the probem to multiply by a factor or 4
2016-09-02T03:11:03Z chus: the question is what time complexity (big O) fits better with that growing curve?
2016-09-02T03:11:39Z chus: thanks!
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2016-09-02T08:39:56Z ecraven: has there ever been any effort to create something like CLIM (or even port CLIM) from CL to Scheme?
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2016-09-02T10:45:17Z z0d: ecraven: not that I know of
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2016-09-02T10:54:27Z ecraven: z0d: I'm not sure how useful ACCEPT and PRESENT are with current-day ui guidelines and expectations, but they sure sound extremely nice
2016-09-02T10:55:15Z z0d: I always thought that CLIM is good for a Lisp system, but less so with anything else
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2016-09-02T12:05:34Z TCZ: how to change this to fold function? pastebin.com/cXnnD7jK
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2016-09-02T13:38:05Z ijp: TCZ: you can't do that as a pure fold, you need to pass a pair of values back, and select one
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2016-09-02T17:35:04Z DeeEff[m]: TCZ: you can't change it to a fold because it's not a fold, it's an unfold. You want http://paste.lisp.org/display/324896/raw
2016-09-02T17:35:32Z DeeEff[m]: I'm not sure if racket has `identity`, but it's just `(lambda (x) x)` if you care
2016-09-02T17:36:12Z ijp: unfold solution is nice, pair folds always seem kinda suspect
2016-09-02T17:37:01Z DeeEff[m]: pair folds are almost always unfolds in disguise
2016-09-02T17:37:23Z DeeEff[m]: though granted there's some crazy things you can do with values and continuations, so I won't say anything absolute lest I be corrected
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2016-09-02T18:43:31Z n_blownapart: hi anyone recommend math / cs books that specifically actually teach the math behind sicp and scheme ?
2016-09-02T18:43:46Z wasamasa: wikipedia articles should suffice
2016-09-02T18:44:04Z wasamasa: besides, it's not like sicp is about math, it just happens to use it heavily for the examples in the first chapter
2016-09-02T18:44:17Z wasamasa: the rest goes about lists, trees, streams, programs, etc.
2016-09-02T18:44:54Z uliks: concrete maths is nice, but very dense (it's maths for cs by knuth and some other authors)
2016-09-02T18:44:55Z n_blownapart: really wasamasa ? that is good news. I've already learned much about car / cdr in little schemer. sicp chap 1 is brutal
2016-09-02T18:45:15Z wasamasa: n_blownapart: I agree, it starts of rather innocently, but then homes in and catches you off-foot
2016-09-02T18:45:59Z n_blownapart: its almost gratuitous belittling, like they have a secret clubhouse wasamasa
2016-09-02T18:46:18Z ijp: a secret clubhouse called MIT
2016-09-02T18:46:34Z wasamasa: lol
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2016-09-02T18:47:01Z n_blownapart: ijp wasamasa yeah I appreciate the encouragement , I don't want to give up. I work at UC Berkeley, academics are pricks sometimes.
2016-09-02T18:47:28Z wasamasa: compare with chapter two where you implement rationals and think a bit about intervals
2016-09-02T18:47:40Z ijp: usually the ones that went into academia to research, not teach
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2016-09-02T18:48:22Z n_blownapart: word ijp . there are some lovely people who are real teachers here.. to give the culture credit .
2016-09-02T18:49:00Z n_blownapart: but you can't get near them. Any good teacher has office hours with lines going out the door
2016-09-02T18:49:26Z n_blownapart: this place is so overcrowded its pathetic. total cash cow
2016-09-02T18:49:43Z wasamasa: then you do sequences, trees and get back to a bit more math
2016-09-02T18:49:55Z wasamasa: it's a better mixture than chapter one for sure and as far as I got
2016-09-02T18:50:12Z n_blownapart: wasamasa: intervals in what sense ?
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2016-09-02T18:50:59Z ijp: as in, if you have a 110 ohm with resistor with tolerance 10% and a 120 ohm resistor with tolerance of 5%, what is range of values it can take if you wire them in series
2016-09-02T18:51:18Z jcowan: I wish Scheme had support for intervals
2016-09-02T18:51:25Z ijp: if I were smart I'd have picked numbers that didn't require me to use calc
2016-09-02T18:51:53Z Riastradh: <ijp> I wish Scheme had support for integrals
2016-09-02T18:52:18Z ijp: so 230 ohms +- 16 ohms
2016-09-02T18:52:36Z ijp: Did I say that? Maybe I did
2016-09-02T18:53:02Z n_blownapart: I just need to spend a year on math. but whenever I make a resolution, I realize here at UCBerkeley I can't get any help. *Everyone* is so strapped for time I feel sorry for them. Where can I teach myself systematically how to do math step by step ?
2016-09-02T18:53:23Z ijp: inb4 euclid
2016-09-02T18:53:37Z n_blownapart: ??
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2016-09-02T18:55:37Z uliks: n_blownapart: https://8ch.net/prog/res/3034.html#3034
2016-09-02T18:55:44Z uliks: here you have a list of math books
2016-09-02T18:55:53Z uliks: in order of difficulty/prerequsites
2016-09-02T18:55:56Z ijp: I dodn't even remember how much maths SICP needs, probably not much more than highschool calculus
2016-09-02T18:56:39Z n_blownapart: uliks thanks I bought Gelfand's classic Algebra book, about 10 pages in there are algebraic proofs required that are 2 pages long
2016-09-02T18:57:24Z n_blownapart: I just don't understand how these books make huge leaps, and the resources ironically despite the vastness of the internet are sparse
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2016-09-02T18:59:52Z n_blownapart: uliks that I've never seen. looks good thank you. ijp yeah algebra mostly but in code I have a rough time.
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2016-09-02T19:00:57Z n_blownapart: thanks alot gotta split . pax
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2016-09-02T19:03:57Z uliks: I think that maths and a lot of other fields will force you to learn a lot of things you can't yet understand (leaps). Once you learn enough context everything will just fall into place. It's a chicken and egg problem.
2016-09-02T19:04:00Z uliks: no problem
2016-09-02T19:04:23Z ijp: if your brain doesn't hurt, you aren't learning
2016-09-02T19:04:48Z ijp: the converse doesn't necessarily hold
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2016-09-02T19:07:31Z ecraven: wasamasa: have you used tables in libui?
2016-09-02T19:07:38Z wasamasa: ecraven: no
2016-09-02T19:07:46Z wasamasa: ecraven: or do you mean grids?
2016-09-02T19:08:03Z ecraven: wasamasa: no, actual tabular data, rows and columns
2016-09-02T19:10:55Z wasamasa: ecraven: nope
2016-09-02T19:11:34Z ecraven: there's a small ui tool I wanted to make, and I thought of doing it with libui
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2016-09-02T19:11:49Z ecraven: but I need tables :) so I'll try to figure out how they work from the headers, no documentation, it seems
2016-09-02T19:11:56Z wasamasa: yeah
2016-09-02T19:12:04Z wasamasa: what helped me was going through the official go wrappers
2016-09-02T19:12:10Z wasamasa: there's also a node wrapper with documentation
2016-09-02T19:12:11Z ecraven: ah, thanks
2016-09-02T19:12:27Z ecraven: but hey, they are reviving CLIM in #clim :D will be interesting where that goes
2016-09-02T19:12:32Z wasamasa: :>
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2016-09-02T19:15:34Z aeth: It seems like there's an active, unofficial contest among #lispgames people to write UI libraries and/or game engines (some in Scheme, too).
2016-09-02T19:15:50Z aeth: And one of the regulars cheated and took a ton of shortcuts by reviving McCLIM. :p
2016-09-02T19:16:47Z wasamasa: lol
2016-09-02T19:16:48Z ecraven: aeth: I still have no idea how useful the PRESENT / ACCEPT paradigm actually is for applications with our current customs and expectations for UIs
2016-09-02T19:16:58Z wasamasa: for games I can't really see this working, but for other stuff, definitely
2016-09-02T19:18:19Z aeth: #lispgames seems to be where anyone with an interest in Lisp/Scheme GUIs hangs out with a few exceptions, especially Racket exceptions (haven't seen any there but they have to have a few because DrRacket is graphical)
2016-09-02T19:18:54Z aeth: No, a lot of GUIs probably aren't practical for real 3D games but a lot of people there just make 2D games to demo their UI libraries anyway.
2016-09-02T19:20:19Z wasamasa: so far the only thing appearing simple *and* reusable is nuklear and dear imgui, but even those are mostly used for debug-stuff UI
2016-09-02T19:21:12Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've been looking at imgui.cpp a lot, and I wouldn't exactly call it "simple" :-) though conceptually it probably is much simpler than non-IM uis
2016-09-02T19:22:00Z wasamasa: ecraven: it involves less contortion than traditional ones and is basically a refined version of what I'd otherwise do for something highly interactive
2016-09-02T19:22:49Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've done quite a bit with it in pioneer, and it does seem like a very nice approach (though a lot of convenience functions that dear imgui doesn't have [yet] would be nice)
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2016-09-02T20:23:27Z DeeEff[m]: jcowan: what did you mean by "I wish scheme had support for intervals"?
2016-09-02T20:23:43Z DeeEff[m]: could you not make a library that does unum arithmetic and use that for intervals?
2016-09-02T20:23:50Z DeeEff[m]: it could even be an SRFI
2016-09-02T20:23:54Z jcowan: I'd love to have a general-purpose interval library
2016-09-02T20:24:05Z jcowan: but I don't have the extra energy needed to design/write/implement one.
2016-09-02T20:24:52Z DeeEff[m]: hrm... I really want to implement unums as a side project as well
2016-09-02T20:25:01Z DeeEff[m]: I need an IRC bot to remind me to do this when I graduate
2016-09-02T20:25:04Z DeeEff[m]: :)
2016-09-02T20:25:31Z jcowan: Enums, you mean?
2016-09-02T20:27:22Z DeeEff[m]: no no, universal numbers aka unums
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2016-09-02T20:27:51Z DeeEff[m]: See "The end of error" by john gustafson
2016-09-02T20:30:04Z jcowan: Ah.
2016-09-02T20:30:39Z DeeEff[m]: basically it moves from floating points as numeric primitives to intervals
2016-09-02T20:30:54Z DeeEff[m]: but bits also allow for saying the interval is closed onto a single integer
2016-09-02T20:31:10Z DeeEff[m]: I really need to buy the full textbook and start emailing John Gustafson
2016-09-02T20:31:35Z jcowan nods.
2016-09-02T20:34:01Z DeeEff[m]: A unum SRFI would also really pave the way for making unums part of the full numeric tower, but I would be super hesitant to do that before we get hardware support (so basically in 10 years)
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2016-09-02T20:35:35Z jcowan: I think decimal floats should come first.
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2016-09-02T20:38:59Z DeeEff[m]: well yes, we have hardware support for that today, so they should be made because they are immediately useful. But unums engulf decimals floats in terms of what can be represented.
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2016-09-02T21:19:35Z ecraven: Riastradh: re the new srfi, which programming language had only division, not multiplication?
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2016-09-02T21:23:33Z samth: wingo: glad you like it
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2016-09-02T21:29:10Z wingo: samth: a delight.  very clarifying
2016-09-02T21:29:55Z wingo: maybe some people find ml more readable, but i think typed racket is better in some ways
2016-09-02T21:30:13Z wingo: the way types relate to structs is very nice
2016-09-02T21:34:17Z wingo: i am on the hook to write some racket soon, i need to get on that
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2016-09-02T21:59:14Z DeeEff[m]: As much as I was really excited by types / gradual typing a year ago I'm finding now especially I'd rather have the flexibility of my program than have to specify type contracts all over the place.
2016-09-02T21:59:28Z DeeEff[m]: DYNAMIC4LYFE
2016-09-02T22:00:19Z qu1j0t3: i love those 2am bugs too
2016-09-02T22:00:28Z ijp: here lies DeeEff[m], threw under a BusError, and no-one caught them
2016-09-02T22:00:52Z DeeEff[m]: I don't need to catch them. Just turn off and on again
2016-09-02T22:00:53Z DeeEff[m]: :)
2016-09-02T22:00:56Z ijp: a good kid, but they all go wrong eventually
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2016-09-02T22:38:59Z pierpa: wrt unums, there's a m.l. about them. Gustafson participates and answers questions.
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