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2016-07-28T04:50:11Z f-a: `(+ ,@(cdr '(* 2 3)))  <-- what does @ mean in this expression
2016-07-28T04:50:30Z f-a: if I erase it it seems it's the same result
2016-07-28T04:50:43Z ijp: rudybot:  `(+ ,@(cdr '(* 2 3)))
2016-07-28T04:50:45Z rudybot: ijp: error: module: no #%module-begin binding in the module's language <NEWLINE>   in: (module program rnrs)
2016-07-28T04:50:51Z ijp: rudybot:  init racket
2016-07-28T04:50:51Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2016-07-28T04:50:53Z ijp: rudybot:  `(+ ,@(cdr '(* 2 3)))
2016-07-28T04:50:53Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(+ 2 3)
2016-07-28T04:50:58Z ijp: rudybot:  `(+ ,(cdr '(* 2 3)))
2016-07-28T04:50:58Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(+ (2 3))
2016-07-28T04:51:24Z ijp: f-a: ,@ is like , but it expects a list, and it gets "spliced in"
2016-07-28T04:51:43Z f-a: oh yeah silly me
2016-07-28T04:51:44Z ijp: rudybot:  (define a '(1 2 3 4 5))
2016-07-28T04:51:44Z rudybot: ijp: Done.
2016-07-28T04:51:47Z f-a: unquote-splicing
2016-07-28T04:51:52Z ijp: rudybot:  `(foo ,a bar)
2016-07-28T04:51:52Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(foo (1 2 3 4 5) bar)
2016-07-28T04:51:55Z ijp: rudybot:  `(foo ,@a bar)
2016-07-28T04:51:55Z rudybot: ijp: ; Value: '(foo 1 2 3 4 5 bar)
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2016-07-28T06:38:21Z ecraven: has there ever been a named let*? to create the initial bindings in sequence?
2016-07-28T06:39:26Z ijp: ecraven: it gets a periodic mention but I doubt it
2016-07-28T06:39:45Z ecraven: ijp: any reason, or just not enough need for it?
2016-07-28T06:39:57Z ijp: that's probably why
2016-07-28T06:40:07Z ecraven: I'd have needed it maybe 10 times over the last few years
2016-07-28T06:40:27Z ijp: and if anyone ever needs named letrec, then they should be psychiatrically examined
2016-07-28T06:40:32Z ecraven: which is about 9 times more often than some other things :)
2016-07-28T06:40:52Z ecraven: ijp: oh, I wouldn't say that.. though I can't think of a good example for that now either
2016-07-28T06:41:14Z ijp: I can think of maybe one use for it, but I doubt it actually works
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2016-07-28T17:29:20Z akkad hunts for resources to convert a lot of CL to a scheme.
2016-07-28T17:32:56Z jcowan: Since the days of Sumer men have sought this and not found it.
2016-07-28T17:33:10Z aeth: I don't think that that can be done for an arbitrary Scheme because Scheme is too small of a language.
2016-07-28T17:33:56Z akkad: yeah. need to pick one and learn it's methods
2016-07-28T17:34:45Z rszeno gramar to grammar including sematics and hardware models? hard to do it
2016-07-28T17:36:25Z aeth: There can be a lot of overlap between CL and Scheme, but there are also some basic problems like nil vs #f that would be hard afaik
2016-07-28T17:37:29Z aeth: Most of the time you'd want #f for nil but not always... and there are some subtle differences like (car '()) being an error in Scheme while (car nil) is nil in CL
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2016-07-28T17:39:32Z rszeno yepp, is not a only a lexical translation
2016-07-28T17:40:24Z rszeno: else you need only sed, :)
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2016-07-28T17:46:03Z rszeno: define-syntax and friends could help but ... still a lot of research, arbitrary decisions, ...
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2016-07-28T17:51:03Z aeth: Unless the CL code uses reader macros.
2016-07-28T17:51:54Z rszeno: that should be harder. imo
2016-07-28T17:56:05Z aeth: I don't think there's an easy way to determine what any line of CL is actually going to do once reader macros are involved. Reader macros seem to e.g. break emacs's indentation.
2016-07-28T17:57:14Z rszeno: true
2016-07-28T18:00:52Z rszeno: macros are somewhere between lexer anal and syntax, is hard to infere author intention
2016-07-28T18:03:02Z rszeno: sometime are just replacements for strings to make the code shorter
2016-07-28T18:05:05Z jcowan: Some Schemes have extensible lexical syntax, notably Racket and Chicken, but most do not
2016-07-28T18:05:21Z jcowan: Gambit, too
2016-07-28T18:05:39Z jcowan: Other problems are polymorphism, both built-in and CLOS
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2016-07-28T18:06:43Z pjb: You can define reader macros to completely switch the syntax of the following text. You could thus read lisp programs using C, Smalltalk, perl, python, or any other syntax you'd want.  So yes, good luck to the editor :-)
2016-07-28T18:06:54Z wasamasa: but do they have something like named read tables?
2016-07-28T18:06:57Z wasamasa: https://common-lisp.net/project/named-readtables/
2016-07-28T18:07:26Z wasamasa: I recall CHICKEN being somewhat weird with eggs using read syntax and requiring extra compilation args...
2016-07-28T18:07:42Z ijp: racket has the only sensible solution
2016-07-28T18:07:44Z jcowan nods
2016-07-28T18:09:08Z jcowan: ijp: If you mean #lang, I agree.  Readtables are rather hacky even in Racket
2016-07-28T18:09:27Z jcowan: I'm going to try to get something like #lang into R7RS-large at a (much) later stage.
2016-07-28T18:11:10Z ecraven: jcowan: MIT/GNU scheme has customizable parser tables too
2016-07-28T18:11:21Z jcowan: Ah, thanks
2016-07-28T18:11:28Z ecraven: even per port, I think
2016-07-28T18:11:34Z jcowan: I should do one of my investigations
2016-07-28T18:11:37Z ecraven: :)
2016-07-28T18:11:57Z jcowan: Gambit has it too
2016-07-28T18:17:06Z rszeno: probably the most difficult part is to make clear specs for both input and output
2016-07-28T18:23:53Z rszeno: i'm curios how somebody will interpret the 'the' from lisp, for example, :)
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2016-07-28T18:29:11Z ecraven: I don't particularly like #lang, seems like it makes fragmentation much too easy
2016-07-28T18:31:02Z aeth: jcowan: polymorphism in CL isn't as bad as it is in a lot of languages. (+ 1 1) is valid (and actually generic) but (+ "foo" "bar") isn't used for string concatenation (fortunately)
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2016-07-28T18:31:21Z jcowan nods
2016-07-28T18:31:26Z jcowan: however, there are the sequence functions
2016-07-28T18:31:42Z aeth: Yes, and they're used very heavily and are quite convenient.
2016-07-28T18:31:55Z jcowan: The only polymorphism in Scheme (other than universal polymorphism, obvs) is between exact and inexact numbers
2016-07-28T18:32:15Z jcowan: otherwise it is relentlessly monomorphic
2016-07-28T18:36:03Z ecraven: jcowan: I have to admit I'd be happy to have polymorphic sequence functions :-/
2016-07-28T18:36:11Z ecraven: ideally even extensible ones
2016-07-28T18:36:27Z ijp: well, you can't even get agreement on the simple things, let alone something tricky like polymorphism
2016-07-28T18:36:53Z ecraven: ijp: indeed, but one can still dream :p
2016-07-28T18:37:09Z ijp: rudybot: I dream of eletrocuted sheep
2016-07-28T18:37:13Z rudybot: ijp: I've heard about "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
2016-07-28T18:37:46Z ecraven: now and then, I start up oaklisp and type (length #(1 2 3)) [or whatever the exact syntax is in oaklisp] and smile a bit :)
2016-07-28T18:38:09Z jcowan: The whole point of R7RS-large is to get agreement on the simple things
2016-07-28T18:38:24Z jcowan nods.
2016-07-28T18:38:31Z ijp: I've just stopped caring
2016-07-28T18:38:42Z ijp: you do you
2016-07-28T18:40:19Z ecraven: > (length #(1 2 3))   ->    3    :D
2016-07-28T18:40:51Z jcowan: "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood."
2016-07-28T18:42:02Z ecraven: Make big plans; aim high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical diagram once recorded will never die.   See, logical diagram! That *must* mean a flowchart!
2016-07-28T18:43:09Z jcowan: On the other hand, "Think globally, act locally."
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2016-07-28T18:44:18Z ecraven: hehe, also:  If one has capital and a well-considered plan, the thing does itself.  So where do we get that capital! (or is it the well-considered plan that we need?)
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2016-07-28T18:45:22Z jcowan: Those have been my principles as chair of R7RS-large.
2016-07-28T18:45:37Z jcowan: The capital required is all of you Schemers out there.
2016-07-28T18:46:52Z akkad: is there a list of what r7rs brings in human readable format?
2016-07-28T18:47:08Z jcowan: I don't so much have a plan as a meta-plan:  democracy trumps technocracy; backwards compatibility matters (but not more than anything else); consistency is good when you can get it.
2016-07-28T18:47:52Z jcowan: akkad: Well, there is the Red Edition, which is now final in principle but not yet written down: it's a list of SRFIs added to the samll language.  But the job isn't done: there will be many further color editions adding more SRFIs.
2016-07-28T18:48:00Z ijp: don't forget "no function left behind"
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2016-07-28T18:52:21Z jcowan: ijp: It only seems that way.  Plenty of stuff gets chopped at the SRFI level, even if the libraries are bigger than Schemers are used to (but not much bigger than SRFI 1)
2016-07-28T18:54:20Z ijp: jcowan: by any reasonable standard, if R6RS was too big, then half your proposals were monsters
2016-07-28T18:54:37Z ijp: and underspecified to boot
2016-07-28T18:56:17Z ijp: not that there is any point having this discussion for the umpteenth time. I shouldn't have brought it up
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2016-07-28T18:58:26Z jcowan: R6RS had no subset to satisfy small-worlders, and wasn't designed to make it easy for R5RS+ systems to come forward.  And the underspecification is deliberate.
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2016-07-28T18:58:53Z jcowan: R5RS/R7RS Schemes are free to make (length #(1 2 3)) => 3 rather than requiring an error.
2016-07-28T18:59:11Z ijp: I know it's deliberate
2016-07-28T18:59:18Z ijp: *that* is what rankles me most
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2016-07-28T19:01:01Z jcowan: Clinger's paper is pretty good on this point, I think: R7RS favors interoperability over portability, R6RS the reverse
2016-07-28T19:01:28Z ijp: what's the point in having the same code run if it doesn't do the same thing
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2016-07-28T19:02:10Z ijp: it's fundamentally absurd
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2016-07-28T19:03:00Z teurastaja: whats the current conversation about?
2016-07-28T19:03:02Z ijp: maybe the dream is that if we write enough code then implementations will converge naturally
2016-07-28T19:03:21Z ijp: but if that were the case then we'd have agreed on what VALUES does by now
2016-07-28T19:03:52Z teurastaja: i think multiple values arent even necessary. i use lists ;)
2016-07-28T19:04:01Z ijp: (some will say that's a bad example because the correct behaviour couldn't be expressed without standardised exceptions)
2016-07-28T19:04:45Z jcowan: What behavior is correct?
2016-07-28T19:11:32Z ijp: teurastaja: before I was rudely interrupted by a network issue, I was expounding on my opinion that r7rs ignored the most important lesson of r6rs
2016-07-28T19:12:08Z teurastaja: the compactness issue?
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2016-07-28T19:13:45Z ijp: it's not only outside of the overton window of scheme thought, it may be on a completely different dimension
2016-07-28T19:13:49Z teurastaja: i think if the community doesnt just implement the other part of the r7rs language and keeps on disagreeing, scheme is dead
2016-07-28T19:13:55Z ijp: scheme is dead
2016-07-28T19:14:58Z rszeno: ijp, scheme is not dead, maybe is time for a r8rs, :)
2016-07-28T19:15:02Z jcowan: zxScheme has been dead since 1975
2016-07-28T19:15:04Z teurastaja: so please stop all this chatter about rethinking r7rs and just finish it, *please*
2016-07-28T19:15:19Z jcowan: teurastaja: I'm dancing as fast as I can.
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2016-07-28T19:15:31Z ijp: no-one is rethinking it
2016-07-28T19:16:04Z teurastaja: ive been waiting for a completed r7rs for years and im fed up
2016-07-28T19:16:16Z jcowan: By leveraging the SRFI process, I make implementation as close to trivial as I can.
2016-07-28T19:16:32Z jcowan: teurastaja: What have you done to help accelerate the process?
2016-07-28T19:17:16Z teurastaja: jcowan: i used to think about publishing bug reports but that would only slow the process
2016-07-28T19:17:29Z ijp: I can try to convince people, but changing the window of thought is hard
2016-07-28T19:17:29Z teurastaja: so i dont know
2016-07-28T19:17:59Z ijp: I think we all know roughly what is going to happen
2016-07-28T19:18:02Z teurastaja: i just use r7rs and publish my work sometimes
2016-07-28T19:18:35Z jcowan: As long as I have to do most of the work, it's going to take years more.
2016-07-28T19:18:56Z teurastaja: jcowan: can i help?
2016-07-28T19:19:35Z teurastaja: what work has been done about the large language libraries?
2016-07-28T19:19:58Z jcowan: BTW, the Red Edition = R7RS-small + SRFIs 1, 133, 14, 125, 116, 101, 134, 140, 121, 127, 41, 111, 117, 124.
2016-07-28T19:20:33Z teurastaja: ok. was about time srfi-1 got integrated in the language
2016-07-28T19:20:59Z teurastaja: what about srfi 27?
2016-07-28T19:21:04Z teurastaja: i use it a lot
2016-07-28T19:21:06Z jcowan: If you go to <http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/wiki/WG2Dockets> and look at the color dockets
2016-07-28T19:21:24Z jcowan: in the OrangeDocket
2016-07-28T19:21:37Z teurastaja: i can live without srfi-1 but not srfi-27
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2016-07-28T19:22:06Z jcowan: There are a bunch of pre-SRFIs in the OrangeDocket that have specs but not implementations, so a good effort is to implement them, leveraging existing implementations wherever possible.
2016-07-28T19:22:07Z ijp: jcowan: I presume you are standarding useful names for these
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2016-07-28T19:22:31Z ijp: wait, 14 but not 13
2016-07-28T19:22:33Z jcowan: ijp: Yes, that's next.  I have to post a proposal which I hope will be passed by unanimous consent or nearly so
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2016-07-28T19:22:44Z jcowan: 13 did not get a majority of votes
2016-07-28T19:22:54Z ijp: morons
2016-07-28T19:23:18Z teurastaja: you guys start voting together please
2016-07-28T19:23:33Z teurastaja: which library can i implement?
2016-07-28T19:24:01Z teurastaja: and where do i submit it when im done?
2016-07-28T19:24:22Z teurastaja: im tired of this im taking over
2016-07-28T19:24:50Z teurastaja: something easy because im not a guru
2016-07-28T19:25:56Z teurastaja: so... which libraries remain to implement?
2016-07-28T19:27:42Z jcowan: Look at the OrangeDocket and see, like I said.
2016-07-28T19:27:50Z jcowan: TallyCowan would be easy
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2016-07-28T19:30:50Z teurastaja: it takes a key? maybe i must reread but shouldnt it take a vector or a matrix?
2016-07-28T19:31:49Z rszeno srfi-n is a bad name
2016-07-28T19:32:04Z teurastaja: so its a bag of values referenced by a key and you can run various statistics in them?
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2016-07-28T19:33:51Z pierpa: which Clinger paper you mean, a few lines above?
2016-07-28T19:34:58Z teurastaja: what is tally-timed! supposed to import as a library for the timestamp?
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2016-07-28T19:39:07Z teurastaja: jcowan: tally-timed! needs something like SRFI-19. can i implement it with it?
2016-07-28T19:41:49Z rszeno maybe http://3e8.org/pub/scheme/doc/lisp-pointers/v1i6/p31-clinger.pdf
2016-07-28T19:43:04Z pierpa: rszeno: thank you
2016-07-28T19:43:47Z rszeno: i'm not sure
2016-07-28T19:44:44Z pierpa: anyway, I don't remember having read this one. So thanks anyway.
2016-07-28T19:45:56Z rszeno: there is a bibliograpy at http://people.csail.mit.edu/jaffer/r5rs_13.html#SEC85
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2016-07-28T20:06:05Z ecraven: what's the next colour for the dockets?
2016-07-28T20:06:14Z jcowan: Orange.  Spectral order
2016-07-28T20:06:35Z ecraven: so in order as on the WG2Dockets page? great :)
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2016-07-28T20:07:01Z ecraven: ah, lenses might fit the orange docket, if there were a full and decent implementation :-/
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2016-07-28T20:07:13Z ecraven: unfortunately not even racket provides traversals and prisms :-/
2016-07-28T20:08:14Z ecraven: jcowan: does it just seem that way, or will the dockets proceed from less controversial to more controversial?
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2016-07-28T22:37:50Z teurastaja: jcowan: can the bitwise library in the orange book be implemented from R7RS bytevectors?
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2016-07-28T22:38:48Z jcowan: Bitwise is intended to work on bignums, not bit vectors.  There will be a separate spec for bit vectors soon.
2016-07-28T22:39:12Z jcowan: In general the specs tend to lack proper abstracts and rationales.
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2016-07-28T22:40:02Z teurastaja: so it works directly on representations like #b10101010 ?
2016-07-28T22:40:44Z teurastaja: much easier if thats it ill do it
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