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GNU can get over themselves 2016-06-09T14:36:37Z groovy2shoes: and Guix itself is a great idea, poorly executed imo 2016-06-09T14:37:27Z groovy2shoes: a package build script for GNU hello should NOT be more than 20 lines, preferably no more than around 8, if you ask me 2016-06-09T14:37:29Z jackdaniel: why? fwiw it's pretty nice. I'm not using it myself because I didn't bothered to install the "blob-full" kernel 2016-06-09T14:38:34Z jackdaniel: I didn't bother° 2016-06-09T14:42:58Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: could you explain exactly what you find wrong with it? 2016-06-09T14:44:18Z davexunit: this is our hello package http://paste.lisp.org/display/317917 2016-06-09T14:44:56Z davexunit: 21 lines total, a bunch of it is metadata 2016-06-09T14:45:43Z davexunit: ecraven: GuixSD is younger than NixOS, but it's built on a much better foundation using a better language and API. 2016-06-09T14:45:56Z groovy2shoes: thanks, I was looking for it 2016-06-09T14:46:04Z groovy2shoes: it's just too much for such a simple package 2016-06-09T14:46:05Z ecraven: davexunit: I'd really like to use it, I just need to learn more about it 2016-06-09T14:46:09Z groovy2shoes: that's what I don't like about it 2016-06-09T14:46:16Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: what exactly is too much? 2016-06-09T14:46:22Z groovy2shoes: it'd be faster for me to just build the damn thing by hand than to come up with that script 2016-06-09T14:46:24Z ecraven: davexunit: with nixos, I understand at least partly how things work :) 2016-06-09T14:46:46Z davexunit: I would also encourage you not to judge a system for packaging complex software based on the code for a trivial piece of software 2016-06-09T14:46:56Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: you're missing the piont 2016-06-09T14:46:57Z davexunit: point* 2016-06-09T14:47:40Z davexunit: and it's kind of comparing apples and oranges. a lot of that package is metadata to provide information to the user who may not know about this software 2016-06-09T14:47:55Z groovy2shoes: that's what google is or 2016-06-09T14:47:57Z groovy2shoes: for* 2016-06-09T14:48:14Z davexunit: you must just not like package managers in general then 2016-06-09T14:48:20Z noethics: i've been learning scheme and one thing i notice is that it's pretty hard to find code for specific scheme implementations 2016-06-09T14:49:08Z noethics: for example if i want some library for chez-scheme to make working with sockets easier, what would a "pro" do? 2016-06-09T14:49:12Z groovy2shoes: when I write a build script for CRUX, it's three extra lines versus building by hand: one line to define the url, "build() {", and "}" 2016-06-09T14:49:14Z noethics: write C? 2016-06-09T14:49:32Z davexunit: groovy2shoes: what about the source checksum? 2016-06-09T14:49:42Z groovy2shoes: handled automatically by the package manager 2016-06-09T14:49:49Z davexunit: that doesn't make any sense. 2016-06-09T14:49:53Z groovy2shoes: in a separate file, like it should be 2016-06-09T14:49:55Z davexunit: it has to be known in advance 2016-06-09T14:50:05Z davexunit: "as it should be"? 2016-06-09T14:50:10Z groovy2shoes: yup 2016-06-09T14:50:13Z davexunit: why? 2016-06-09T14:50:22Z davexunit: what is wrong with a package as a first-class object? 2016-06-09T14:50:47Z groovy2shoes: such a pain in the ass to update the checksum every time there's an update if it's embedded in between some other text on the same line in some file with other shit 2016-06-09T14:51:18Z davexunit: it's trivial here 2016-06-09T14:51:20Z groovy2shoes: when I want to update a CRUX checksum, I rm md5sum && fakeroot pkgmk 2016-06-09T14:52:27Z davexunit: good for you 2016-06-09T14:53:07Z davexunit: crux doesn't do nearly what guix does for build determinism 2016-06-09T14:53:37Z groovy2shoes: and yet I've never had any issues with it 2016-06-09T14:53:57Z davexunit: here I am, defending Scheme expressions for packages in #scheme 2016-06-09T14:54:18Z groovy2shoes: I have no problem with using scheme expressions for packages 2016-06-09T14:55:07Z davexunit: as long as they work *exactly* like crux and conform to your preconceived notions of how things should be 2016-06-09T14:55:23Z groovy2shoes: that's not what I said at all 2016-06-09T14:55:34Z davexunit: I'm done with this 2016-06-09T14:55:36Z groovy2shoes: I was just using CRUX as an example 2016-06-09T14:55:57Z groovy2shoes: good 2016-06-09T14:56:09Z BW^- joined #scheme 2016-06-09T14:56:15Z BW^-: what are the best functional databases out there? 2016-06-09T14:56:19Z davexunit left #scheme 2016-06-09T14:56:24Z groovy2shoes: huh 2016-06-09T14:56:26Z groovy2shoes: ? 2016-06-09T14:56:27Z BW^-: as in, they glue the Scheme/Lisp/etc. heap and a persistent database well 2016-06-09T14:56:29Z BW^-: and they give you a select language 2016-06-09T14:56:35Z BW^-: and functional references to all previous versions of the database 2016-06-09T14:56:40Z BW^-: and it's non-mutating 2016-06-09T14:56:40Z BW^-: ? 2016-06-09T14:58:09Z groovy2shoes: I like how anytime I disagree with that guy, he says "fuck this" and leaves 2016-06-09T14:58:22Z groovy2shoes: what a penispump 2016-06-09T14:58:40Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2016-06-09T14:59:12Z groovy2shoes: gonna go to his room and cry because that one asshole on #scheme doesn't like his favorite package manager? christ 2016-06-09T14:59:26Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-09T14:59:42Z jackdaniel: well, "poorly executed" wasn't a good wording at all 2016-06-09T15:00:04Z jackdaniel: especially that the points you made are about your personal opinions how the package definition should look like 2016-06-09T15:00:15Z jackdaniel: not any objective "brokeness" of things 2016-06-09T15:00:25Z groovy2shoes: just one idiot's internet opinion 2016-06-09T15:00:32Z jackdaniel: no, that's not my point 2016-06-09T15:00:35Z wasamasa: BW^-: datomic and whatever picolisp ships with 2016-06-09T15:00:54Z wasamasa: BW^-: both use a prolog-like query language 2016-06-09T15:01:07Z jackdaniel: either way I do understand why he could get angry 2016-06-09T15:01:12Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, you don't think "I find it to be a pain in the ass to create packages with it compared to other package managers" is not a legitimate criticism? 2016-06-09T15:01:27Z jackdaniel: well, I find guix definitions pretty clear 2016-06-09T15:01:36Z jackdaniel: clearer then ie pacman's 2016-06-09T15:01:45Z jackdaniel: even if I find pacman a great package manager 2016-06-09T15:02:00Z jackdaniel: btw, thanks for the patches! 2016-06-09T15:02:07Z taylan quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-09T15:02:15Z jackdaniel: is there a chance to make them a PR on github? :-) 2016-06-09T15:04:49Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, yeah sure :) 2016-06-09T15:04:50Z octo- is now known as octophore 2016-06-09T15:06:12Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2016-06-09T15:06:22Z groovy2shoes: for the record, I think Guix's package definitions are perfectly clear... I understand everything that's going on in that example without really needing to look anything up (btw, his example here leaves out the massive 'module' and 'import' forms that I seem to remember from the docs, so the *real* package is even bigger than this...) 2016-06-09T15:06:39Z groovy2shoes: my problem is frankly that I'm lazy 2016-06-09T15:07:02Z groovy2shoes: the less I have to do to make a functioning package, the better 2016-06-09T15:08:14Z jackdaniel: and my point is that its perfectly fine stand, but not a good basis for claiming, that the other stand is bad, or the idea was "poorly executed" – especially that many people put a lot of effort into that execution 2016-06-09T15:08:15Z jcowan: laziness, impatience, hybris: the virtues of a programmer 2016-06-09T15:08:38Z jackdaniel: QED ;) bbl o/ 2016-06-09T15:08:50Z jcowan: Indeed. Hackers debating often remind me of a story my father told about his high school geometry teacher 2016-06-09T15:09:21Z groovy2shoes: again, just my opinion, jackdaniel 2016-06-09T15:09:25Z jcowan: He would award points for correct answers and deduct points for incorrect ones. 2016-06-09T15:09:41Z jcowan: "Not only have you failed to get it right," he would say. "You have *also* gotten it wrong." 2016-06-09T15:09:41Z groovy2shoes: jackdaniel, see you later :) 2016-06-09T15:10:00Z groovy2shoes: lol jcowan 2016-06-09T15:10:28Z jcowan: It is not enough to support the ideas we like, we also seem to want to denigrate ideas we don't like, as if there weren't room enough for all. 2016-06-09T15:11:21Z groovy2shoes: problem is, there aren't any ideas I like 2016-06-09T15:11:28Z groovy2shoes: so denigrating others is all I have 2016-06-09T15:11:52Z jcowan: That also can be useful: cut away everything that doesn't look like an elephant. 2016-06-09T15:12:06Z groovy2shoes: my ideal package manager doesn't exist 2016-06-09T15:12:26Z gwatt: what is your ideal package manager? 2016-06-09T15:12:32Z groovy2shoes: it's the one where I say "I want foo" and the system googles "foo", finds the latest source tarball, reads the INSTALL file, and builds the package for me :p 2016-06-09T15:12:33Z jcowan: Indeed, most demands for "constructive criticism only" are misconceived, because often the most "constructive" advice available is "That chair will never stand up with only two legs." 2016-06-09T15:13:16Z jcowan: The toxic case is "Your idea sucks because it is not my idea." 2016-06-09T15:26:51Z greatscottttt quit (Quit: leaving) 2016-06-09T15:30:13Z marrenarre joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:33:31Z marrenarre: Hello. I saw a procedure named "repeated" in the SICP series on YouTube. I couldn't find it in R5RS (nor "repeat"), and Google gave me nothing I could make use of. Any idea what such a procedure might've done? 2016-06-09T15:34:02Z marrenarre: It takes a procedure and a number as an argument (or should, or however you say it). 2016-06-09T15:34:23Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:34:30Z galex-713: marrenarre: could be easy to implement 2016-06-09T15:34:32Z marrenarre: My guess is it's like folding except it only passes the accumulator to the procedure since it takes no list. 2016-06-09T15:35:08Z marrenarre: Yes but I'm wondering what it did, if there's a well-known procedure with that name that's existed in the past or so. 2016-06-09T15:35:27Z galex-713: I suppose it call the function without args n times 2016-06-09T15:35:29Z rszeno joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:36:48Z marrenarre: I think it calls it with the return value of the previous procedure application, which is why it takes a starting value. 2016-06-09T15:37:22Z galex-713: oh maybe 2016-06-09T15:37:45Z galex-713: but then how many times do it call this function? n times? until it returns #f? 2016-06-09T15:37:59Z marrenarre: Oh my bad it takes three values I mean. 2016-06-09T15:38:04Z marrenarre: Yes n times. 2016-06-09T15:38:30Z marrenarre: (repeated n proc acc) or so. 2016-06-09T15:39:18Z galex-713: oh ok 2016-06-09T15:39:23Z galex-713: oh it’s repeated 2016-06-09T15:39:31Z marrenarre: Actually yes watching the video again, what he says makes it quite obvious that that is the case. 2016-06-09T15:39:42Z marrenarre: Well I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QgZVYI3tDs&t=1h5m19s 2016-06-09T15:40:20Z marrenarre: "applies this procedure n times" I assume would have that meaning. 2016-06-09T15:40:53Z jcowan: Yeah, it's a zero-argument fold; if you have SRFI 1 you can just use fold. 2016-06-09T15:40:54Z galex-713: omg 2016-06-09T15:41:00Z galex-713: This. Guy. Handwrite scheme. 2016-06-09T15:41:20Z galex-713: I’ll never consider acceptable/useful to handwrite any programming language 2016-06-09T15:41:54Z marrenarre: galex-713: Why is it supposedly *that* bad to do that? 2016-06-09T15:42:07Z _sjs joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:42:30Z benwbooth quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2016-06-09T15:43:29Z jcowan: I wrote a program once by hand on paper, because I was away from the school computer (un-networked) all summer. It was my first assembly-language (i.e. non-Basic) program. 2016-06-09T15:44:21Z marrenarre: Parenthesis matching hehe: https://i.imgur.com/mHhQulg.gif 2016-06-09T15:44:37Z groovy2shoes: jcowan, only once? 2016-06-09T15:44:59Z groovy2shoes: I spent my entire "health" class in high school writing assembly programs in a notebook lol 2016-06-09T15:45:14Z galex-713: jcowan: yeah you’re right, that’s justified when you can’t access often enough to a computer 2016-06-09T15:45:16Z marrenarre: jcowan: I see, thanks! 2016-06-09T15:45:16Z jcowan: Maybe a few times after that during the one semester I had to use punch card input 2016-06-09T15:45:26Z benwbooth joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:46:13Z groovy2shoes: and I actually learned to code before I owned a computer, so I'd spend a lot of time reading library books and scribbling programs in notebooks, then on the weekend when I had access to a computer, I'd type them in and test them... even now, I find it relaxing and productive to write programs on paper... I can do it practically anywhere and it's 100% distraction-free ;) 2016-06-09T15:46:46Z galex-713: I hate to handwrite 2016-06-09T15:47:01Z benwbooth quit (Max SendQ exceeded) 2016-06-09T15:47:01Z galex-713: But maybe that’s linked to my dysgraphy/dyspraxiab 2016-06-09T15:47:05Z galex-713: *dyspraxia 2016-06-09T15:47:15Z groovy2shoes: I can see that 2016-06-09T15:47:23Z jao quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-09T15:47:24Z galex-713: x) 2016-06-09T15:48:05Z benwbooth joined #scheme 2016-06-09T15:48:22Z groovy2shoes: is that your face? well, I'm going to write you a prescription for "opening your eyes"... see if that helps you with your dysgraphy 2016-06-09T15:48:40Z groovy2shoes: ;) 2016-06-09T15:49:49Z galex-713: no my default face is “gray3” according emacs 2016-06-09T15:50:15Z groovy2shoes: lol 2016-06-09T15:52:44Z sethalves quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-09T15:58:42Z galex-713: Is there a demonstration of how does work unfold somewhere? 2016-06-09T16:07:57Z jcowan: SRFI 1 has an example or two 2016-06-09T16:08:23Z LeoNerd: I've never quite come up with a neat API for doing an unfold-shaped operation 2016-06-09T16:11:20Z AlexDenisov joined #scheme 2016-06-09T16:15:20Z LeoNerd: The basic fold step takes the accumulator and another list value, returning a new accumulator value. But the basic unfold step has two optional things it might decide to do 2016-06-09T16:15:54Z LeoNerd: It could emit some more values for the return list, or it could decide there's nothing more. In either case it might mutate the scalar value 2016-06-09T16:16:05Z LeoNerd: (well, "return a new" scalar value) 2016-06-09T16:24:45Z fadein quit (Quit: Changing server) 2016-06-09T16:26:09Z fadein joined #scheme 2016-06-09T16:26:41Z AlexDenisov quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-09T16:27:18Z grettke quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2016-06-09T16:29:04Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-06-09T16:35:41Z przl quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-09T16:38:24Z grettke quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-09T16:38:49Z sethalves joined #scheme 2016-06-09T16:46:02Z mbrock quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2016-06-09T16:57:40Z gravicappa joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:10:57Z jao joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:15:48Z mastokley quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-09T17:16:30Z BW^-: OT: what are the best key-value store libraries (with multithreading support and compression or whatever) today? 2016-06-09T17:17:11Z BW^-: just anything for me to be able to store a set of values in a file, where the library gives me a |get| accessor to look up based on key 2016-06-09T17:18:23Z wasamasa: I just use sqlite3 2016-06-09T17:19:02Z wasamasa: you could of course try lmdb or libdb or a dbm implementation or leveldb or whatever 2016-06-09T17:19:30Z wasamasa: but I keep going back to sqlite3 as it has a proper query language and is good at keeping my data safe :> 2016-06-09T17:20:45Z wasamasa: if you're feeling lucky, use redis 2016-06-09T17:22:27Z BW^-: wasamasa: how good is redis at storing to disk ??? 2016-06-09T17:23:00Z wasamasa: BW^-: terrible 2016-06-09T17:23:10Z BW^-: wasamasa: what about Facebook's RocksDB? 2016-06-09T17:23:21Z wasamasa: BW^-: no idea 2016-06-09T17:23:27Z BW^-: wasamasa: libdb = Berkeley DB, not good huh 2016-06-09T17:23:32Z wasamasa shrugs 2016-06-09T17:23:42Z wasamasa: I'd trust rather trust it than redis 2016-06-09T17:24:13Z wasamasa: you could always cheap out and just use a hash table :D 2016-06-09T17:24:27Z wasamasa: assuming you don't need any persistence at all 2016-06-09T17:25:15Z ecraven: kyoto-cabinet is nice too :) 2016-06-09T17:27:46Z jorrakay: if you don't mind me asking, what's wrong with redis? 2016-06-09T17:34:28Z taylan joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:34:35Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-09T17:34:46Z wasamasa: it's the PHP of key-value stores 2016-06-09T17:35:35Z wasamasa: way too much random functionality with little thought behind its decisions 2016-06-09T17:35:44Z wasamasa: I've found several wtf-worthy places in its docs 2016-06-09T17:36:09Z wasamasa: "Here's this cool feature, but be aware that it's a bad idea to make use of it in the most obvious way" 2016-06-09T17:39:38Z jcowan: that sounds more like the C++ of key-value stores 2016-06-09T17:40:25Z stepnem joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:40:29Z zbigniew quit (Quit: Lost terminal) 2016-06-09T17:40:53Z zbigniew joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:41:15Z wasamasa shrugs 2016-06-09T17:42:26Z wasamasa: the big difference between C++ and PHP is that the former gives you the tools to do it right 2016-06-09T17:43:23Z ecraven: wasamasa: I've had to do a lot of PHP work, if you keep to a functional style, it almost seems bearable 2016-06-09T17:44:55Z rszeno quit (Quit: Leaving.) 2016-06-09T17:44:57Z pierpa joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:45:13Z wasamasa: madness :D 2016-06-09T17:50:25Z ecraven: thus "almost" :) 2016-06-09T17:55:53Z greatscottttt joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:57:26Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:57:26Z mokuso quit (Changing host) 2016-06-09T17:57:26Z mokuso joined #scheme 2016-06-09T17:59:29Z noethics: ecraven, lol you didn't find a problem with having to `use \Closure;` ? 2016-06-09T18:00:30Z ijp joined #scheme 2016-06-09T18:00:40Z noethics: wasamasa, interesting opinion :D mind sharing the wtf docs? i'm genuinely curious as i've never heard people say bad things about redis 2016-06-09T18:02:13Z kuribas quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2016-06-09T18:02:31Z ecraven: noethics: ah, don't remind me... I've never seen *anyone* trying to use \ as a delimiter in that way :-/ 2016-06-09T18:03:25Z galex-713: is there a scheme way of doing like bash brace-expanding like something{one,two{,three,four}} but with sexps? 2016-06-09T18:03:31Z noethics: ecraven, well if you don't you have to use \Closure literals all over the place :) 2016-06-09T18:04:25Z noethics: ecraven, but the \ is from that php thing.. psr-4 or whatever 2016-06-09T18:09:56Z jorrakay: wasamasa: what's a better key-value store? I rather like using them, its a simple abstraction to make a little hash map that backs up to a KV store, and not just in scheme 2016-06-09T18:10:16Z wasamasa: jorrakay: I've named several alternatives 2016-06-09T18:10:35Z wasamasa: jorrakay: now that I think of it, there's plans for sqlite to offer the underlying kv store for programmatic access... 2016-06-09T18:11:25Z jorrakay: apologies, i thought you were talking about relational ones before 2016-06-09T18:11:30Z wasamasa: nah 2016-06-09T18:11:44Z wasamasa: sqlite3 is the only relational one 2016-06-09T18:12:22Z noethics: i think saying that leveldb can replace redis, other than in the sense that it's a kv store is dumb 2016-06-09T18:12:32Z noethics: redis is obviously much heavier artiller 2016-06-09T18:12:33Z noethics: y 2016-06-09T18:12:44Z edgar-rft quit (Quit: edgar-rft) 2016-06-09T18:12:56Z jcowan: I'm in the early stages of putting together a tree API for Scheme 2016-06-09T18:13:13Z jcowan: the idea is that a tree is a list whose members are either leaf objects or (sub)trees. 2016-06-09T18:13:28Z jcowan: The question is, should () be treated as an empty tree or as a leaf object? 2016-06-09T18:13:47Z wasamasa: http://redis.io/topics/transactions 2016-06-09T18:13:56Z wasamasa: not to be confused with transactions as in relational databases! 2016-06-09T18:14:06Z wasamasa: this is of course A Good Thing™ 2016-06-09T18:14:27Z noethics: `All the commands in a transaction are serialized and executed sequentially. It can never happen that a request issued by another client is served in the middle of the execution of a Redis transaction. This guarantees that the commands are executed as a single isolated operation.` 2016-06-09T18:14:59Z wasamasa: oh and maybe they'll go away to stop confusing people :D 2016-06-09T18:15:01Z noethics: and that's not the same thing as a transaction in rdbms how? 2016-06-09T18:15:22Z wasamasa: simple, it always executes everything in the transaction 2016-06-09T18:15:23Z jcowan: Yeah, it looks like a read-isolated RDB transaction to me 2016-06-09T18:15:46Z grettke joined #scheme 2016-06-09T18:15:58Z noethics: wasamasa, can you clarify what you mean? 2016-06-09T18:16:22Z wasamasa: noethics: it's explained in further detail further below what you've cited 2016-06-09T18:16:36Z BW^-: what are the most thrilling persistent key-value stores around today? 2016-06-09T18:16:38Z BW^-: RocksDB? 2016-06-09T18:16:38Z jorrakay: i can see where he's coming from. typically in other DBs an error inside transaction will stop roll back the transaction 2016-06-09T18:16:59Z jorrakay: *a transaction will stop and 2016-06-09T18:17:20Z jorrakay: or at least provide the option for such behavior 2016-06-09T18:17:33Z ijp: jcowan: I think that question is why you shouldn't be punning lists and trees 2016-06-09T18:18:33Z jcowan: Point. 2016-06-09T18:19:00Z wasamasa: other things I've found disappointing is that there's clustering support, but you neither get replication guarantees nor the full redis command set 2016-06-09T18:21:14Z ijp: jcowan: but given those two options, I would take the first one 2016-06-09T18:21:51Z ijp: that way all trees are lists and vice versa 2016-06-09T18:23:18Z jcowan: well, almost: ((3. 4)) is a list but not a tree 2016-06-09T18:23:24Z benwbooth quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2016-06-09T18:24:47Z ijp: it could be a tree whose single subtree is a pair 2016-06-09T18:25:00Z ijp: just to confuse everyone 2016-06-09T18:25:52Z wasamasa: http://redis.io/commands/KEYS 2016-06-09T18:25:53Z wasamasa: "Don't use KEYS in your regular application code." 2016-06-09T18:25:53Z wasamasa: are you fucking kidding me? 2016-06-09T18:25:56Z wasamasa: this is like writing a C function where dest comes before src 2016-06-09T18:26:02Z wasamasa: oh wait, we've already got that 2016-06-09T18:26:15Z benwbooth joined #scheme 2016-06-09T18:27:35Z ijp: I've missed the start of this. I hope your anti-redis argument was better than that 2016-06-09T18:30:59Z noethics: his argument is basically.. redis isn't an rdbms, or a full database solution 2016-06-09T18:31:04Z noethics: who woulda thunk 2016-06-09T18:32:00Z enderby quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-09T18:32:18Z ijp: makes me almost want to write one in redis using lua 2016-06-09T18:33:08Z ijp: exercise: give three reasons why that wouldn't work 2016-06-09T18:38:08Z BW^- quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-09T18:38:26Z edw: Redis is amazing. "Amazing" does not imply "suitable for every problem." 2016-06-09T18:40:57Z jlongster quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-09T18:41:03Z jlongste_ joined #scheme 2016-06-09T18:41:10Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-09T18:42:26Z monod joined #scheme 2016-06-09T18:54:34Z ec quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-09T18:59:29Z JoshS joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:01:42Z ApeShot joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:03:22Z mumptai joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:04:29Z pjb joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:06:57Z jcowan: ijp: It could. But I thinkk it's better to define a tree as a list whose elements are either trees or leaves, where a leaf is any object other than a pair or (). 2016-06-09T19:09:19Z monod quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2016-06-09T19:09:40Z benwbooth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-09T19:10:24Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:12:56Z benwbooth joined #scheme 2016-06-09T19:13:37Z grettke quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…) 2016-06-09T22:35:48Z ijp: It looks like the question is only about 'balance', which is presumably "atomic" in the original implementation 2016-06-09T22:37:59Z zv: ijp: if you started out with 100$ and had one person depositing 5 and another withdrawing 5 concurrently, couldn't you end up with 105, 95 and 100 dollars in the end? 2016-06-09T22:38:23Z Fare joined #scheme 2016-06-09T22:38:45Z ijp: the only change in 3.41 is to the code for balance 2016-06-09T22:39:02Z zv: i.e, Depositor reads balance, Withdrawer reads balance, Depositor does math and sets, Withdrawer does math and sets. 2016-06-09T22:39:13Z ijp: the 'balance message 2016-06-09T22:39:15Z zv: in the end, it would be the same as if the depositor had done nothing 2016-06-09T22:39:59Z ijp: anyway, that scenario can't happen. That was the whole point of adding the serialiser 2016-06-09T22:40:13Z zv: ijp: right 2016-06-09T22:40:40Z zv: ijp: and that's why I think that if you *removed* the serializer, that scenario *could* happen and is thus unsafe 2016-06-09T22:40:48Z zv: but answers online say "oh no, this is totally safe" 2016-06-09T22:41:01Z ijp: I think you are misreading the question 2016-06-09T22:41:18Z JoshS quit (Quit: Leaving) 2016-06-09T22:41:52Z ijp: you need to combine it with the change to the code that was made 2016-06-09T22:42:35Z ijp: ((eq? m 'balance) balance) => ((eq? m 'balance) (protected (lambda () balance))) 2016-06-09T22:43:20Z zv: ijp: thank you ijp 2016-06-09T22:43:21Z ijp: so the question is asking, does the implementation of the 'balance message require serialisation 2016-06-09T22:43:26Z zv: wuwu 2016-06-09T22:43:29Z zv: you are totally right 2016-06-09T22:44:08Z zv: this has been killing me for hours 2016-06-09T22:50:35Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2016-06-09T22:56:50Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2016-06-09T23:00:21Z bjz joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:01:06Z taylan quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2016-06-09T23:01:57Z taylan joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:12:03Z Fare quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2016-06-09T23:14:06Z bjz quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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Would that be a good compromise? 2016-06-09T23:45:14Z Shadox joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:45:55Z galex-713: makufiru: most of scheme implementations already work natively on all platforms including mobiles, and most of these features are already implemented in different implementations 2016-06-09T23:45:59Z galex-713: (even the bonus one) 2016-06-09T23:47:20Z andrewvic quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2016-06-09T23:47:21Z makufiru: @galex-713: can you give me an example? Seems the different variations I looked into had some of these points, but none had all 2016-06-09T23:47:52Z noethics: how is eval generally implemented in schemes that don't use interpreters 2016-06-09T23:50:47Z andrewvic joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:51:12Z noethics: i'm going to assume they don't/can't :P 2016-06-09T23:52:47Z daviid joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:53:09Z galex-713: makufiru: guile have all of these except for clojure-style immutable data type but that’s planned, and it runs on any platforms 2016-06-09T23:53:22Z galex-713: (at least any platform supported by gcc) 2016-06-09T23:53:52Z makufiru: All platforms? I've read it has bad Windows support 2016-06-09T23:53:54Z galex-713: for example 2016-06-09T23:54:07Z lritter joined #scheme 2016-06-09T23:54:27Z makufiru: (I'm interested in using it to ship games. Windows/OS X are primary targets, with iOS close behind) 2016-06-09T23:54:35Z galex-713: makufiru: GNU software usually is most used on GNU systems (GNU/Linux, etc.) and UNIX-like (like BSD, Android, etc.), but installation on Windows can be tricky, even if it works 2016-06-09T23:54:46Z _sjs` quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-09T23:54:46Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2016-06-09T23:54:54Z galex-713: Usually packaging on windows is really strange and each apps install all its dependencies with itself 2016-06-09T23:55:18Z stepnem quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2016-06-09T23:55:26Z galex-713: makufiru: and yeah it works on OS X, but it requires to know how to install dev stuff on Mac OS X, and personally I don’t know that :p 2016-06-09T23:55:42Z makufiru: That's what I mean. That's why I was interested in creating a lisp/scheme for the CLR. I know about ClojureCLR and iron scheme but both fall short. 2016-06-09T23:58:13Z galex-713: CLR? 2016-06-09T23:58:52Z cemerick joined #scheme