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2016-06-07T00:23:54Z kori: I love scheme
2016-06-07T00:23:56Z kori: that is all
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2016-06-07T01:42:50Z zv: hey cool dudes, i've been reading a few macro guides, incl. "Macros for the merely Eccentric" and I still can't figure out how to define a list of functions -- does anyone know the trick here?
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2016-06-07T02:09:53Z jyc_: zv: hey! what do you mean by a list of functions?
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2016-06-07T02:10:23Z jyc_: Like (define list-of-fns (list (lambda () ...) (lambda () ...) ...))?
2016-06-07T02:10:57Z jyc_: You should be able to make a macro that expands to a definition like that just as you would make a macro that expands to anything else
2016-06-07T02:10:58Z zv: jyc_: I am trying to make a macro that does (macro a b c d) => (define a (fnbody)) (define b (fnbody) (define c (fnbody)) and so on
2016-06-07T02:11:20Z jyc_: Ah
2016-06-07T02:11:48Z jyc_: Sorry I can't type out that much, I'm on my phone, but would something like
2016-06-07T02:12:52Z jyc_: (define-syntax macro (syntax-rules () [(_ name ...) (begin (define name (fnbody)) ...)])) work?
2016-06-07T02:13:13Z mikeyhc: does for me
2016-06-07T02:13:20Z jyc_: If you look at the spec, at least for r5rs, there is a sentence about defines inside of begins being at the level of the begin
2016-06-07T02:13:23Z jyc_: Cool!
2016-06-07T02:13:35Z jyc_: Last time I try to do that on a phone keyboard
2016-06-07T02:13:37Z mikeyhc: have a couple of things like that for database binding generation
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2016-06-07T02:19:53Z zv: how do I actually generate the name?
2016-06-07T02:20:06Z zv: I mean, what is the name made of? it's not a symbol or a string?
2016-06-07T02:20:12Z zv: (at least in guile)
2016-06-07T02:20:26Z zv: (or maybe I don't know the way to "intern" a function name)
2016-06-07T02:21:39Z zv: mikeyhc: how did you do it?
2016-06-07T02:23:20Z zv: jyc_: it gives me Wrong type to apply "unspecified"
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2016-06-07T02:24:01Z zv: this is the problem I've been running up against -- otherwise I'd have written the macro already :(
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2016-06-07T02:24:30Z jyc_: hm, its interesting that you are getting an error about applying something
2016-06-07T02:24:41Z jyc_: Could you maybe post the code?
2016-06-07T02:25:03Z zv: also, if I make the function body `(display "yay")`, I get N "yay"s in my console
2016-06-07T02:25:20Z jyc_: And if you need to generate names as opposed to having the user write them in the macro invocation, you will probably want to use an unhygienic macro
2016-06-07T02:25:36Z zv: https://gist.github.com/zv/97fd716fe9a5c41d182cab439d49e96e
2016-06-07T02:25:46Z zv: jyc_: that is good to know
2016-06-07T02:25:50Z jyc_: Which implementation of that you use depends a bit on which Scheme implementation you use, because there is syntax-case, er-macro-trandformer stuff, etc
2016-06-07T02:26:18Z zv: yeah, I suspected that might be the case, I am just doing this to work through SICP
2016-06-07T02:26:37Z jyc_: Oh ok
2016-06-07T02:26:57Z jyc_: So do you want to define a bunch of functions that when you call them
2016-06-07T02:27:03Z mikeyhc: zv: so in your example you create a variable called form which executes (display "thing"), then you append all the symbols you passed to the macro to the function
2016-06-07T02:27:05Z jyc_: They do (display "thing")?
2016-06-07T02:27:18Z zv: yes
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2016-06-07T02:27:46Z jyc_: oh ok so then see mikeyhc's comment
2016-06-07T02:27:50Z zv: so I don't have to write out this long list of "aliases"
2016-06-07T02:28:26Z zv: mikeyhc: how do I escape from that variable's immediate invocation?
2016-06-07T02:28:28Z jyc_: right now you're just defining a bunch of variables with the value of (display "thing") which is unspecified
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2016-06-07T02:28:37Z zv: ahh
2016-06-07T02:28:48Z jyc_: you could define them instead as (lambda () (display "thing"))
2016-06-07T02:28:55Z zv: so are these the "datums" I've been hearing so much about?
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2016-06-07T02:28:59Z zv: oh :(
2016-06-07T02:29:14Z jyc_: or use the sugar for defining functions and have (define (form) (display "thing"))
2016-06-07T02:29:41Z zv: ARGH, how did I not see that!
2016-06-07T02:29:42Z jyc_: The extra parens make it a function
2016-06-07T02:29:46Z zv: thank you guys for your patience
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2016-06-07T02:30:02Z jyc_: np
2016-06-07T02:30:07Z zv: you are both super amazing mikeyhc and jyc_
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2016-06-07T02:30:22Z zv: blessings to you and your decendents
2016-06-07T02:30:55Z zv: that is quite interesting though
2016-06-07T02:31:25Z mikeyhc: zv: http://pastebin.com/wauD2i0z also works
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2016-06-07T02:31:52Z mikeyhc: zv: though you probably want to define a helper function that creates the binding
2016-06-07T02:32:22Z zv: so, I don't want to take up all of your guys time after such an embarassing oversight over here -- but where is a good resource to understand the meaning of statements like "syntax->datum"
2016-06-07T02:33:18Z zv: It seems clear to me (based on the example you just showed me) that I can bind variables in the environment outside of the macro, which I thought wasn't possible
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2016-06-07T02:34:55Z mikeyhc: it doesn't bind variables, it gets expanded to the define statements, then the define statements get evaluated which binds them
2016-06-07T02:36:02Z zv: that coincides with my preexisting understanding of macros
2016-06-07T02:36:29Z zv: so the extent of the term "hygenic" only includes the actual names of variables within the macro?
2016-06-07T02:36:50Z mikeyhc: yup
2016-06-07T02:37:12Z zv: I see
2016-06-07T02:37:50Z mikeyhc: so names within the macro wont conflict, but if you pass in a symbol and its expansion binds it then the symbol will be bound
2016-06-07T02:37:57Z zv: gotcha
2016-06-07T02:40:03Z zv: jyc_ mentioned earlier that you'd want to stick with defmacro-style macros if you wanted to generate a function name which sounds sensible. If I *wanted* to use syntax-case or rules -- could I in principle go about doing it?
2016-06-07T02:41:12Z mikeyhc: yeah, its just not recommended
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2016-06-07T02:43:29Z zv: i see, that is very interesting
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2016-06-07T02:56:54Z zv: is that best done with this "quasiquoting" business, or is there a more direct way?
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2016-06-07T04:06:45Z jyc_: afaik quasiquoting is when you use reader syntax like `(some symbols ,var ,@splice)
2016-06-07T04:07:18Z jyc_: regular quoting '(some symbols) just takes what you literally wrote and turns it into data
2016-06-07T04:07:43Z jyc_: with quasiquoting you can evaluate expressions inside to make that data
2016-06-07T04:08:22Z jyc_: you will probably use quasiquoting if you use an unhygienic macro in the same way that you write out the pattern in the syntax-rules
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2016-06-07T04:31:44Z galex-713: Hi, if in my code I tend to use a looooot of (map (lambda () body ...) list), so much that I defined a mapdo function whose usage looks like (mapdo var list body...) (a bit like the loop for each el of […] in clisp), is there a cleaner way to do this with Scheme? ir is it not the scheme way and I should do something else, or keep writing lot of lambdas?
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2016-06-07T05:51:02Z ecraven: is there a way to automatically get subscribed to all srfi's discussion mailing lists?
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2016-06-07T06:26:25Z jyc_: galex-713: if its the verbosity of (lambda () ...) that is the main thing, a lot of implementations define shorthand for lambda like ^ in gauche
2016-06-07T06:26:30Z jyc_: Don't know if that relates to your problem
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2016-06-07T06:28:44Z galex-713: what’s gauche?
2016-06-07T06:28:51Z ecraven: a Scheme implementation
2016-06-07T06:28:59Z galex-713: ah ok
2016-06-07T06:29:24Z galex-713: Do you know if there is a such thing with guile?
2016-06-07T06:29:49Z ecraven: there's also CUT (srfi 26)
2016-06-07T06:30:06Z ecraven: I've also seen (XXX (+ $1 $2))
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2016-06-07T06:30:26Z ecraven: I've bound that to hebrew lamed for infrequent use
2016-06-07T06:30:35Z ecraven: not sure what guile provides, did you check the manual?
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2016-06-07T06:33:36Z galex-713: Oh, seems cool (I mean, cut)
2016-06-07T06:34:01Z ecraven: keep in mind that CUT doesn't work for nested forms (at least last I tried it didn't)
2016-06-07T06:34:27Z galex-713: jyc_: cut solves the verbosity problem, yet the main thing is when the lambda/body is extralarge, so having the list to be operated after the body is quite unreadable
2016-06-07T06:34:46Z ecraven: galex-713: if the body is too large, don't use lambda, properly define the function
2016-06-07T06:35:06Z galex-713: even if it’s really specific and I need it only once?
2016-06-07T06:35:25Z ecraven: well, whatever you think is more maintainable and understandable :)
2016-06-07T06:36:11Z galex-713: until now I was using my mapdo form but I was becoming not sure it was clear/maintainable/clean for others
2016-06-07T06:36:45Z ecraven: just my personal opinion, but if they don't understand *that*, they'll run into a lot of other problems...
2016-06-07T06:37:00Z ecraven: though you might think about changing the name to something more obvious
2016-06-07T06:37:14Z ecraven: or something that has precedent in other languages.. CL calls it dolist, I think?
2016-06-07T06:37:33Z galex-713: dolist is more specific I think
2016-06-07T06:38:01Z galex-713: actually it’s really like a foreach that output values
2016-06-07T06:38:16Z galex-713: and actually for-each is the side-effect version of map
2016-06-07T06:38:45Z ecraven: ah, I misunderstood.. still, mapdo is very much non-obvious to me
2016-06-07T06:38:51Z galex-713: maybe do-through or for-each-in
2016-06-07T06:39:19Z ecraven: personally, I'd also use (for-each-in (name list) body ...) (to make it resemble let bindings a tiny bit)
2016-06-07T06:39:41Z galex-713: clisp has (loop for myvar being each element of myseq collect mybody) though it is really verbose
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2016-06-07T06:39:52Z ecraven: there's foof-loop, have you looked at that
2016-06-07T06:40:21Z galex-713: what is that?
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2016-06-07T06:40:26Z galex-713: Can’t find it in guile doc
2016-06-07T06:40:39Z ecraven: something like CL's loop for Scheme
2016-06-07T06:40:53Z galex-713: (which implements r5rs, a bit of r6rs+r7rs and many srfis)
2016-06-07T06:40:57Z galex-713: is it a srfi?
2016-06-07T06:41:27Z ecraven: http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/foof-loop.txt
2016-06-07T06:41:36Z ecraven: it is portable, I think, so it should work on guile
2016-06-07T06:41:54Z galex-713: if it should, it is in some module I don’t know
2016-06-07T06:42:15Z ecraven: no, it doesn't come with guile
2016-06-07T06:42:21Z ecraven: google it :)
2016-06-07T06:42:31Z ecraven: there's nothing else called `foof-loop', I think
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2016-06-07T06:44:22Z galex-713: oh it seems cool
2016-06-07T06:44:26Z galex-713: Is it standardized?
2016-06-07T06:44:34Z galex-713: Like in r7rs-large or some srfi?
2016-06-07T06:44:56Z ecraven: no, but why would it need to be? it has a portable implementation?
2016-06-07T06:46:03Z galex-713: is the last question meant to be a question?
2016-06-07T06:46:36Z galex-713: And, err, because when I see something implemented in guile for example, I see it most of time in an r<n>rs/srfi-<n> section
2016-06-07T06:46:39Z ecraven: hehe, not exactly, just a comment on the question before it
2016-06-07T06:46:49Z galex-713: Although there are specific APIs and internal stuff too
2016-06-07T06:47:04Z ecraven: there's a lot of useful code that is not an srfi
2016-06-07T06:47:21Z galex-713: you mean useful generic code?
2016-06-07T06:47:23Z ecraven: yes
2016-06-07T06:47:37Z ecraven: there is, after all, a Scheme standard, so you *can* write portable code :D
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2016-06-07T06:49:09Z galex-713: oh ok
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2016-06-07T10:10:33Z galex-713: I have a design question about scheme: why are functions values/data while macros aren’t?
2016-06-07T10:11:43Z galex-713: I mean, with elisp, macros are data as well as functions, and you can bound a symbol to the value of another macro, etc. while with scheme it seems you can’t because evaluating a macro-symbol alone stand to a syntax-error
2016-06-07T10:11:47Z galex-713: Why?
2016-06-07T10:12:00Z galex-713: What does this permit/allow to do more than in elisp?
2016-06-07T10:12:14Z ecraven: galex-713: macros are expanded at compile / macro-expand time, not at runtime
2016-06-07T10:12:21Z ecraven: so what use would a macro be at runtime?
2016-06-07T10:12:33Z galex-713: Oh right…
2016-06-07T10:12:42Z galex-713: Erm…
2016-06-07T10:12:49Z galex-713: I don’t know :/
2016-06-07T10:13:06Z ecraven: also, think about (apply if (< 1 2) #t #f) :D
2016-06-07T10:13:17Z ecraven: if macros were runtime values, that would somehow work
2016-06-07T10:13:25Z galex-713: yeah
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2016-06-07T10:13:46Z galex-713: I thought that, and stuff like “(define se when)” would be cool
2016-06-07T10:14:09Z ecraven: well, depending on your scheme implementation, (define-syntax se when) might work :)
2016-06-07T10:14:32Z galex-713: syntax-error too…
2016-06-07T10:14:42Z galex-713: Ok so that’s not related to scheme but to guile you mean?
2016-06-07T10:15:09Z ecraven: maybe (define-syntax se (syntax-rules () ((se a b c ...) (when a b c ...))))
2016-06-07T10:15:34Z galex-713: yes but that’s really complex and you *have* to know and repeat the form syntax to redefine it
2016-06-07T10:16:20Z galex-713: While if I could define macro programatically I could take a list of scheme keywords/special forms name, take the translated list of them, and redefine scheme in some dozen of lines
2016-06-07T10:16:43Z ecraven: galex-713: you can do that, just not with syntax-rules
2016-06-07T10:16:50Z galex-713: how?
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2016-06-07T10:29:06Z ecraven: is there a portable way to get syntax aliases?
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2016-06-07T13:42:54Z foof: submission deadline for the scheme workshop is in less than 3 weeks!  http://scheme2016.snow-fort.org/
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2016-06-07T13:58:46Z gwatt: galex-713: http://termbin.com/qgr2
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2016-06-07T14:05:01Z gwatt: tmux at
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2016-06-07T14:06:17Z galex-713: gwatt: oh cool thanks ^^
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2016-06-07T17:27:55Z ecraven: hm.. I really like the idea of immutable strings, but textual-* as a prefix for all string+text-related functions doesn't feel right :-/
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2016-06-07T21:08:13Z jcowan: hey ho hey
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