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2016-02-26T00:33:44Z adu: n_blownapart: hi
2016-02-26T00:34:13Z n_blownapart: adu hi whats up?
2016-02-26T00:34:26Z adu: n_blownapart: what exactly do you mean by "diagram"
2016-02-26T00:35:15Z n_blownapart: well, I heard about box / pointer diagrams, or any notation to help me follow the steps of procedures once they reach a certain size.
2016-02-26T00:35:39Z adu: n_blownapart: the kind used in dynamical systems? ok
2016-02-26T00:36:05Z n_blownapart:  I don't exactly know how this program works. as for dynamical systems, that I don't know.
2016-02-26T00:37:06Z adu: well, I can think of two options, we could spend lots of time creating https://cloud.sagemath.com/ accounts so we can share notebooks with _actual_ diagrams
2016-02-26T00:37:16Z adu: or, we can use the SICP approach
2016-02-26T00:37:38Z n_blownapart: I started watching the sicp lectures from 1986. I hope they cover all of these exercises in detail, but I doubt they will. whatever you suggest adu - much appreciated
2016-02-26T00:37:51Z adu: SICP is text based
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2016-02-26T00:39:29Z n_blownapart: I was able to follow the prior code, then for the program to work with very small / very large numbers, the code changed to using the previous-guess argument. it was then I could not follow any longer
2016-02-26T00:40:06Z n_blownapart: prior *excercise from sicp.
2016-02-26T00:40:52Z n_blownapart: also , this is a solution from someone on a blog who went through the exercises.
2016-02-26T00:41:13Z n_blownapart: adu ^
2016-02-26T00:42:05Z adu: ok
2016-02-26T00:42:24Z n_blownapart: In the code, I don't see why they start out with (define (square x)
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2016-02-26T00:45:08Z n_blownapart: so the arguments sqrt-iter takes are: (sqrt-iter 1.0 0 .001))
2016-02-26T00:45:22Z adu: n_blownapart: the general idea of SICP traces is to do something like this:
2016-02-26T00:45:23Z adu: http://pastie.org/10737882
2016-02-26T00:45:36Z adu: you just work through each step, to convince your self how it works
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2016-02-26T00:46:27Z n_blownapart: ok, I have been using trace to follow in that way adu
2016-02-26T00:46:33Z adu: n_blownapart: I think I see your issue though,
2016-02-26T00:46:46Z adu: n_blownapart: (good-enough?) is testing precision, not accuracy
2016-02-26T00:47:01Z n_blownapart: meaning?
2016-02-26T00:47:16Z n_blownapart: I just don't quite get the math going on..
2016-02-26T00:47:19Z adu: it could be getting closer to zero, or some wild number, and you want to know why the precision test, also tests acurrecy to the square root function?
2016-02-26T00:47:42Z adu: (good-enough?) tests that the guesses are getting closer and closer together
2016-02-26T00:48:13Z n_blownapart: thanks, I do get good-enough? pretty well
2016-02-26T00:48:28Z adu: n_blownapart: do you get (improve)?
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2016-02-26T00:49:36Z adu: n_blownapart: are you familiar with the identity?: sqrt(x) == x/sqrt(x)
2016-02-26T00:50:36Z n_blownapart: yeah, the math I get
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2016-02-26T00:51:46Z n_blownapart: I can see how improve works.
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2016-02-26T00:55:14Z turtleman: i am having a problem with #lang r7rs in racket unfortunately :(
2016-02-26T00:55:19Z turtleman: srfi 1 does not play nice
2016-02-26T00:55:24Z turtleman: because of mutable vs immutable lists
2016-02-26T00:56:40Z turtleman: apparently even quoting doesnt work
2016-02-26T00:56:47Z turtleman: it expands to mcons
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2016-02-26T00:58:25Z n_blownapart: adu oh so in the pastie you sent: the previous guess was 0 , but then after the first recursion 1.0 moves back to the previous guess argument for the next recursion adu
2016-02-26T00:58:56Z n_blownapart: correct ? adu
2016-02-26T00:58:58Z adu: yes
2016-02-26T00:59:14Z adu: you just follow the parameters
2016-02-26T00:59:48Z n_blownapart: the parameters in text sort of throw me off. do you sympathize adu ?
2016-02-26T01:00:11Z adu: n_blownapart: what?
2016-02-26T01:00:23Z adu: how do you want them, in colors?
2016-02-26T01:00:31Z n_blownapart: but I can use trace to watch the guess move to the previous-guess parameters, correct?
2016-02-26T01:00:32Z adu: in sounds?
2016-02-26T01:00:36Z adu: in smells?
2016-02-26T01:01:00Z adu: n_blownapart: if you have a debugger that can do that, yes
2016-02-26T01:01:25Z n_blownapart: I have a good sniffer actually. sommelier ...
2016-02-26T01:01:52Z n_blownapart: adu yeah I've been playing with racket/trace. but the pastie was helpful thank you
2016-02-26T01:02:10Z adu: n_blownapart: I just plugged in numbers...
2016-02-26T01:02:31Z adu: n_blownapart: but I got the idea from SICP, they do things like that a lot
2016-02-26T01:02:39Z n_blownapart: I get overwhelmed thinking that this exercise is so early in the book. but the math is easy.
2016-02-26T01:02:46Z n_blownapart: adu yeah , thanks kindly
2016-02-26T01:03:36Z adu: n_blownapart: but do you understand (improve) now?
2016-02-26T01:03:50Z adu: n_blownapart: it's based on the identity sqrt(x) = x/sqrt(x)
2016-02-26T01:04:42Z adu: oh, you already answered that, my bad
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2016-02-26T01:05:58Z n_blownapart: yes I understand the identity. that fact that this code handles the very small numbers and very large is still foggy. ( as opposed to the earlier solution which did not work for small/large numbers.
2016-02-26T01:06:14Z adu: Fare!
2016-02-26T01:06:32Z n_blownapart: Fare?
2016-02-26T01:06:40Z n_blownapart: do you mean fair?
2016-02-26T01:07:31Z adu: no, a user
2016-02-26T01:09:03Z n_blownapart: oh -- here is the earlier code fr/ sicp. notice 23 returns a wrong output. 24 returns an infinite loop
2016-02-26T01:09:07Z n_blownapart: https://www.refheap.com/115210
2016-02-26T01:10:25Z n_blownapart: let me ask you, when you first look at this , where do you see the problem ?
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2016-02-26T01:16:10Z n_blownapart: adu ^ i.e. the improved code adds the parameter previous-guess. so is it that the additional parameter makes the function improve work better?
2016-02-26T01:23:05Z n_blownapart: adu thanks a lot . gotta go. pax
2016-02-26T01:23:11Z adu: ok
2016-02-26T01:23:16Z adu: I don't see how
2016-02-26T01:23:22Z adu: it should work both ways
2016-02-26T01:23:52Z n_blownapart: it has to do with how float points numbers are interpreted in scheme or some such adu
2016-02-26T01:24:32Z n_blownapart: with the large number, it just stops improving the guess at a particular iteration.
2016-02-26T01:24:42Z n_blownapart: and hangs
2016-02-26T01:28:24Z adu: n_blownapart: when I use the old code, I get (sqrt 24) => 4.898996732283415
2016-02-26T01:28:28Z adu: what's the issue?
2016-02-26T01:28:52Z adu: oh
2016-02-26T01:29:10Z n_blownapart: try .001
2016-02-26T01:29:19Z n_blownapart: or 9999999999
2016-02-26T01:29:38Z adu: n_blownapart: so the old code is testing 10^x against 0.001, and the new code is testing 0.000000001 against 0.001
2016-02-26T01:29:58Z adu: I think that's what your saying, right?
2016-02-26T01:30:10Z n_blownapart: yeah its a little over my head
2016-02-26T01:30:19Z adu: n_blownapart: you should learn about floating point
2016-02-26T01:30:36Z adu: n_blownapart: write your own atof() and ftoa() functions
2016-02-26T01:31:18Z adu: n_blownapart: in C
2016-02-26T01:31:21Z n_blownapart: I sort of get the issue, but I am alarmed at this complexity this early on in sicp. atof() ftoa() ? what are the acronyms?
2016-02-26T01:31:58Z n_blownapart: in C ? no I'm self taught. I dont know any of this stuff.
2016-02-26T01:32:15Z adu: atof is not a function, sorry, it's my personal name for the conversion between a string representation of a floating point number, like "7.21", and it's floating point representation
2016-02-26T01:32:30Z adu: and ftoa would be reverse, sorry for using stupid names
2016-02-26T01:33:05Z adu: n_blownapart: you could do it in scheme, that would probably be just as educational
2016-02-26T01:33:19Z n_blownapart: no problem. I instinctively see why they are teaching it like that. gotta go sadly. thanks a lot adu
2016-02-26T01:33:21Z adu: n_blownapart: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-precision_floating-point_format
2016-02-26T01:33:32Z adu: n_blownapart: you have to learn floating-point!
2016-02-26T01:33:32Z n_blownapart: thanks
2016-02-26T01:33:41Z n_blownapart: ok will do
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2016-02-26T02:35:31Z jcowan: turtleman: Yes, Racket is incompatible with Scheme because of its use of immutable conses throughout.
2016-02-26T02:35:42Z turtleman: :(
2016-02-26T02:35:51Z turtleman: so #lang r7rs isnt as useful as i like
2016-02-26T02:36:17Z jcowan: I'm going to recommend that they change it to use Racket conses and simply say they don't support set-car! and set-cdr!
2016-02-26T02:36:44Z turtleman: yeah that would fix everything actually i think
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2016-02-26T02:43:33Z jcowan: okay, done at https://github.com/lexi-lambda/racket-r7rs/issues/3?_pjax=%23js-repo-pjax-container
2016-02-26T02:44:27Z jcowan: note also that using mpairs means problems for procedures with rest arguments
2016-02-26T02:45:19Z jcowan: in #lang r7rs, does (define (foo . bar) ...) cause bar to be bound to a mutable or an immutable list?  If mutable, there has to be a lot of magic to allow R7RS and Racket functions to call each other at all; if not, you cannot dissect bar with car and cdr.
2016-02-26T02:45:55Z jcowan: (unless, I suppose, R7RS functions accept both pairs and mpairs)
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2016-02-26T02:56:57Z turtleman: hmm i will test that
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2016-02-26T03:02:24Z turtleman: indeed they are mutable
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2016-02-26T16:42:27Z leppie: optimistic? http://stackoverflow.com/q/35657108/15541
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2016-02-26T16:44:19Z leppie: Ok, that code is halfway (even if just psuedo)
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