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2016-01-01T00:10:48Z jasom: ~1k could probably get you call/cc and a non-generational semi-space
2016-01-01T00:11:21Z jasom: particularly if all allocations are of a fixed size
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2016-01-01T03:03:46Z Necrosporus: How do you choose an lisp dialect anyway, if not (scheme vs common lisp)?
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2016-01-01T03:39:51Z lambda-11235: Necrosporus: Arc vs. clojure vs. newlisp vs. zenlisp vs. various scheme dialects vs. ...?
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2016-01-01T03:48:43Z Necrosporus: lambda-11235, yeah
2016-01-01T03:49:14Z Necrosporus: How do you choose it if you are not only considering CL and Scheme, but also them
2016-01-01T03:50:34Z Necrosporus: There are also languages which are not lisp, but has similar feature of almost no syntax, such as Rebol/Red/Boron, Tcl, Factor, other stack based stuff and and and ...
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2016-01-01T04:03:06Z lambda-11235: (cond need academic? 'scheme cuncurrent? 'clojure purely-symbolic? zenlisp ...)
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2016-01-01T04:25:49Z Necrosporus: lambda-11235, just need lisp, preferably a small and easy to learn one, and in same time not less powerful than others, such as with some form of hygienic macros.
2016-01-01T04:26:38Z Necrosporus: With very small base system but advanced extensibility
2016-01-01T04:27:24Z Necrosporus: Common Lisp is like C++ in world of Lisp, but I'm thinking about something simpler
2016-01-01T04:28:12Z Necrosporus: Like original McCarthy lisp with important modern amendments
2016-01-01T04:28:56Z Necrosporus: Preferably self-hosted and compilable but with bootstrap
2016-01-01T04:29:01Z lambda-11235: Does it need modules, or is load fine?
2016-01-01T04:29:13Z Necrosporus: I do not know what it is
2016-01-01T04:29:31Z Necrosporus: but some sort of source command should be present to load code from other files
2016-01-01T04:31:06Z Necrosporus: lambda-11235, something like (load stlib.lisp) so I could have all my functions immediately after starting repl
2016-01-01T04:31:32Z Necrosporus: And to be able to put libraries in separate files
2016-01-01T04:34:04Z Necrosporus: Probably, some namespace conventions would be necessary to avoid cluttering global namespace with local defines, but I guess it's easy enough to implement using (let (local definition) (local definition) (begin (define global1) (define global2)))
2016-01-01T04:34:30Z Necrosporus: So only global things would make it into global namespace
2016-01-01T04:34:42Z lambda-11235: arrowlisp and its successor zenlisp are the most minimal lisps I know of.
2016-01-01T04:36:04Z lambda-11235: They don't even have numeric support built in. Numbers are implemented in their libraries.
2016-01-01T04:36:43Z Necrosporus: What's better?
2016-01-01T04:36:53Z Necrosporus: There's also Arc
2016-01-01T04:37:04Z Necrosporus: And newlisp
2016-01-01T04:38:39Z Necrosporus: lambda-11235, arrow lisp has commits in dec 2015 and zen only in 2014
2016-01-01T04:40:51Z lambda-11235: Necrosporus: If your on wasamasa git repository arrowlisp hasn't been touched since 2006. He found that code in a tarball somewhere.
2016-01-01T04:41:28Z lambda-11235: Like I said zenlisp is arrowlisp's successor.
2016-01-01T04:41:47Z Necrosporus: https://github.com/barak/zenlisp/blob/master/zenlisp.txt
2016-01-01T04:41:53Z Necrosporus: lambda-11235, what's the difference?
2016-01-01T04:42:26Z Necrosporus: A pair may contain other pairs: ... ((a . b) (c . d)) // Did the author missed a dot?
2016-01-01T04:42:45Z Necrosporus: ((a . b) . (c . d))
2016-01-01T04:43:39Z mlrutherford: hmm
2016-01-01T04:43:52Z mlrutherford: what is the name of the license that zen uses?
2016-01-01T04:44:02Z mlrutherford: *zenlisp
2016-01-01T04:44:33Z Necrosporus: A form of WTFPL
2016-01-01T04:44:54Z lambda-11235: However, both are implemented in one c file, so not much maintenance is needed.
2016-01-01T04:45:00Z mlrutherford: I need it for packaging purposes. would WTFPL work?
2016-01-01T04:46:22Z Necrosporus: It is a custom non-standard license, but it is probably equal to WTFPL
2016-01-01T04:46:58Z Necrosporus: mlrutherford, you could use License: HAPPY
2016-01-01T04:47:02Z Necrosporus: https://launchpad.net/debian/sid/+source/zenlisp/+copyright
2016-01-01T04:47:29Z Necrosporus: There are only two instances of this text, so the license seem to be unique to zenlisp
2016-01-01T04:48:44Z Necrosporus: mlrutherford, also https://github.com/wasamasa/arrowlisp/blob/master/LICENSE
2016-01-01T04:49:00Z Necrosporus: I guess that you could use 2-clause BSD
2016-01-01T04:49:21Z mlrutherford: thanks for the help, friend :)
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2016-01-01T06:53:12Z pjb: Necrosporus: for a "primitive" scheme, check chapter 7 of r5rs, where scheme is defined formally.
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2016-01-01T06:58:00Z pjb: Necrosporus: notice that you can run LISP programs from the 1960s in CL without too much difficulty. You couldn't do it easily in scheme.  cf. eg. http://informatimago.com/develop/lisp/com/informatimago/small-cl-pgms/wang.html or https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.lang.lisp/D8sCCn1WZO4/Ciu6tqCgOvUJ
2016-01-01T06:58:01Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/Z6UR0nI9pG
2016-01-01T06:58:01Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/ePHAEHM8O4
2016-01-01T06:59:57Z Necrosporus: pjb, but https://www.taoeffect.com/blog/2010/01/how-newlisp-took-my-breath-and-syntax-away/ this article says that CL is not the nicest flavor of lisp for JFF projects
2016-01-01T06:59:57Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/oagOaN9E5h
2016-01-01T07:00:14Z Necrosporus: it might be preferable for real business logic and stuff though
2016-01-01T07:00:29Z pjb: newlisp is defective and old fashioned. It didn't learn any lesson from after 1960.
2016-01-01T07:00:46Z Necrosporus: dunno... but I'm for simple syntax
2016-01-01T07:00:47Z pjb: What's good for real business logic is industrial strong standard and implementations.
2016-01-01T07:00:51Z Necrosporus: less syntax = better
2016-01-01T07:01:00Z pjb: up to a point.
2016-01-01T07:01:41Z Necrosporus: yes, but complete syntax definition should fit in one page. And in human-readable format, not BNF. If it's doesn't fit, it's overcomplicated
2016-01-01T07:01:56Z pjb: How about 0 BNF?
2016-01-01T07:02:03Z Necrosporus: What?
2016-01-01T07:02:29Z pjb: Notice that ((a . b) . (c . d)) is also printed and can be read as ((a . b) c . d)
2016-01-01T07:03:00Z pjb: And ((a . b) (c . d)) can also be read as ((a . b) . ((c . d) . ())) so even more pairs.
2016-01-01T07:03:51Z Necrosporus: Yeah, and what is the point?
2016-01-01T07:04:17Z Necrosporus: maybe it's wise to get rid of pairs ending with anything but a list
2016-01-01T07:04:29Z Necrosporus: Do you need non-list pairs for anything?
2016-01-01T07:05:04Z pjb: Necrosporus: you cannot have complete syntax definition of lisp because the point of lisp, using data as source code, is to let the lisp program decide on what data it will process, and therefore what syntax.  This is the only reason why lisp survived: because lisp programmers can add any syntax they want whenever they want.
2016-01-01T07:05:38Z pjb: Necrosporus: you could do without, but since pairs are the fundamental concept, not lists, then we don't.
2016-01-01T07:08:09Z Necrosporus: Well, why not?
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2016-01-01T07:08:52Z Necrosporus: regular lisp code consists from sequence of s-expressions
2016-01-01T07:09:04Z Necrosporus: separated by whitespaces
2016-01-01T07:09:20Z Necrosporus: S-expression is either atom or list of s-expressions
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2016-01-01T07:09:46Z Necrosporus: Then you define pair notation and quote notation '(a b c)
2016-01-01T07:10:59Z Necrosporus: Then you say that the first element of of s-expression should be either variable containing lambda, or lambda or a special form
2016-01-01T07:11:29Z Necrosporus: The rest differs in different lisps, like what chars atoms could consists from, how "" are interpreted
2016-01-01T07:11:42Z pjb: Necrosporus: it would not be lisp or scheme, it would be another list based language.
2016-01-01T07:12:01Z pjb: Necrosporus: it could work as well, being homoiconic, and all.
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2016-01-01T07:12:45Z pjb: Necrosporus: the question is how you implement lists, and keep all its properties.
2016-01-01T07:12:47Z Necrosporus: Why cannot you describe Scheme syntax in same way as Tcl syntax is described in Dodecalogue?
2016-01-01T07:12:58Z pjb: Because of define-syntax.
2016-01-01T07:13:10Z pjb: and basically, because of read.
2016-01-01T07:13:45Z pjb: and because it's useless.
2016-01-01T07:14:01Z pjb: First, there are no parentheses in lisp (or scheme).
2016-01-01T07:14:11Z pjb: (first '(a b c)) #| --> a |#  see, no (, a.
2016-01-01T07:14:50Z Necrosporus: but you cannot have a as complete lisp program, except in repl
2016-01-01T07:15:24Z pjb: See: http://paste.lisp.org/display/304305 there's no parentheses in (first '(a b c))
2016-01-01T07:15:31Z Necrosporus: Can you have your `(define a 2) a` in a file and then give it to scheme interpreter and get any result except error?
2016-01-01T07:15:43Z pjb: Yes.
2016-01-01T07:15:51Z pjb: It's a valid scheme program.
2016-01-01T07:16:43Z Necrosporus: Ok, then scheme program is a list of s-expressions ?
2016-01-01T07:16:58Z Necrosporus: which does not have to be enclosed in parentheses
2016-01-01T07:17:01Z pjb: The point is that (while it's a little less obvious in scheme, but it's definitely the case in Common Lisp and other lisps), the _source_ of a lisp program is not the text file, but the sexp structure. There, there are are parenthesis.
2016-01-01T07:17:32Z pjb: A s-expression is a data structure, not a text. There are no parenthesis in a data structure. Like there are no braces in a C array.
2016-01-01T07:17:42Z pjb: int a[3]={1,2,3}; no brace!
2016-01-01T07:17:49Z pjb: just an vector with 3 ints.
2016-01-01T07:18:31Z Necrosporus: pjb, but if you have your s-expression in your source code it has parentheses. I'm talking about syntax definitions for source files, not for internal data structures
2016-01-01T07:18:41Z pjb: A list is a chain of pairs. There are no parentheses there. Just data structures with references from one to the other.
2016-01-01T07:19:03Z adu: syntactics
2016-01-01T07:19:19Z pjb: Necrosporus: the parentheses are accidental. This is the initial state of the reader table (in CL), or the "standard" syntax defined in r5rs (but even most scheme implementations can use brackets instead of parentheses).
2016-01-01T07:19:54Z pjb: Necrosporus: in CL, you can change the read table so that you may read lists or any other data using a different textual syntax.  It's a mere serialization/deserialization protocol that has no effect on the actual lisp program.
2016-01-01T07:20:25Z adu: Scheme generally uses [] for lists where some sort of assignment or if-then is to be implies, but are otherwise equivalent to ()
2016-01-01T07:21:11Z Necrosporus: You could still describe some standard way to serialize lisp logical source, which should have simple syntax to be easy to write by a human
2016-01-01T07:21:39Z pjb: Necrosporus: you have to remember that John McCarthy didn't intend to leave the parentheses. He needed data to define eval[], but he planed to define a classic programming language syntax for lisp.  Only once his student Russel implemented eval[] as EVAL in assembler, to work on the lisp data that he read with a READ function he implemented reading the lisp data directly, they had a working and useful programming language without havi
2016-01-01T07:21:42Z pjb: ever defined a programming language syntax!
2016-01-01T07:21:53Z adu: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-110/srfi-110.html
2016-01-01T07:22:02Z adu: I have
2016-01-01T07:22:09Z pjb: This was liberating: programmers realized they didn't have to spend hours on syntaxes and BNF and scanners and parsers, but could instead spend their time into thinking about their programs!
2016-01-01T07:23:47Z pjb: Necrosporus: what you could most realistically implement, is an emacs mode that would save source buffers by parsing them, and writing a sexp in the file, and loading a source sexp file into a buffer by unparsing them, generating whatever syntax the user prefers.
2016-01-01T07:24:49Z pjb: So you could have users working on the same program, one using C syntax, another using Modula-2 syntax, a third using Java syntax, etc. The editor itself would do the parsing, and save the parse tree, aka sexp in the "source" files.  The compilers would only see the sexps.
2016-01-01T07:25:23Z Necrosporus: but it is not how existing lisp files work
2016-01-01T07:25:53Z Necrosporus: And even if you do so as you say, the (supposedly binary) file should still have some syntax and be parsed
2016-01-01T07:26:14Z pjb: Now the sexp could be saved in binary so begin of list is the code 40, end of list is code 41, and element separator is
2016-01-01T07:26:20Z pjb: 32.
2016-01-01T07:26:23Z Necrosporus: even if parsing consists of loading it into memory because it matches with emacs inner c structs
2016-01-01T07:27:52Z pjb: Of course this is how they work: a scm file may contain the bytes: 40 102 105 114 115 116 32 39 40 97 32 98 32 99 41 41 ; you would read them as: (first '(a b c)), but it's actually a binary protocol for saving of a sexp and symbols, numbers, strings, etc.
2016-01-01T07:28:22Z pjb: The point is that the format of this binary file doesn't matter. What matter is what data structure it represents.
2016-01-01T07:28:53Z pjb: And again, I told you, as a mere lisp programmer, you can define your own formats, by merely defining a print-object method and a reader macro, in CL.
2016-01-01T07:30:44Z pjb: Necrosporus: also, the BNF of lisp programs is rather dull. '(' <operator> <argument>… ')' . duh!
2016-01-01T07:31:40Z adu: atom = atom | list
2016-01-01T07:31:49Z pjb: sexp = atom | list.
2016-01-01T07:31:54Z adu: oops
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2016-01-01T07:34:31Z Necrosporus: pjb, you can still have complete syntax definition for standard, it won't of course cover cases where syntax was redefined
2016-01-01T07:34:58Z Necrosporus: Also can you have Tcl as lisp representation?
2016-01-01T07:35:11Z Necrosporus: And is Tcl a lisp dialect?
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2016-01-01T07:47:47Z adu: Necrosporus: pretty much every language is a lisp dialect
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2016-01-01T13:40:38Z Necrosporus: Is r7rs-small bigger than r5rs?
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2016-01-01T14:01:24Z Necrosporus: Ok it's 88 pages, quite big for something called small.
2016-01-01T14:02:04Z Necrosporus: pjb, I have read the link which you provided for alternative syntax for s-expression
2016-01-01T14:02:06Z oleo_: ☺ new year
2016-01-01T14:04:46Z Necrosporus: That is I understand that they could be represented in different way, but what I'm asking for is a small cheat-shit with complete syntax of something what is provided in default scheme environment with meanings. So, the least and meaning of all special symbols (parens, quotes, dot, hash and so on) which are recognized by, say guile or chibi scheme and taken like something special, not just regular atoms
2016-01-01T14:05:13Z Necrosporus: For example (1 . 2) in this case, it's pair, not list of three atoms as one can think
2016-01-01T14:05:33Z Necrosporus: While (+ 1 2) is a list, so + won't count as part of syntax
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2016-01-01T22:27:51Z Haruhi: Hi :)
2016-01-01T22:28:03Z Haruhi is now known as Guest31314
2016-01-01T22:28:13Z Guest31314: :(
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2016-01-01T22:33:11Z Guest31314: I'll assume it's "don't ask to ask", then I'd like to know how you would manage to ask the user to enter a list of number. This is how I did, but surely it's not optimal, and maybe even slow: http://paste.awesom.eu/MXDI. Any idea? :)
2016-01-01T22:45:58Z pierpa: you need speed in asking a user to enter some numbers????  :)
2016-01-01T22:47:08Z pierpa: the function to reverse a list comes for free in any existing scheme implementation, under the name of "reverse"
2016-01-01T22:47:51Z pierpa: the _ characters typically is not used in scheme identifiers, and it looks very weird
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2016-01-01T22:49:43Z pierpa: there's no need to test (> n 1) and then use (read) in both branches. You can test against 0 and read in only one branch
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