2015-12-29T00:00:16Z oldskirt quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T00:02:06Z jasom: With the notable exception of T, scheme gc's are not written in scheme for obvious reasons that have little to do with performance 2015-12-29T00:03:40Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-12-29T00:03:47Z jasom: physixer: also dealing with the system on *nix will either have to be in C, or c-like scheme, so there is little to be gained by moving the entire runtime into scheme 2015-12-29T00:19:48Z Pixel_Outlaw quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T00:25:41Z cmatei quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-29T00:25:57Z cmatei joined #scheme 2015-12-29T00:43:47Z mumptai quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-12-29T00:51:36Z sz0 quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-29T00:52:04Z diginet left #scheme 2015-12-29T01:02:14Z davexunit joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:09:00Z karswell` joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:13:21Z saul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-29T01:14:28Z saul joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:21:00Z saul quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-29T01:32:57Z davexunit quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T01:33:07Z davexunit joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:33:57Z karswell` is now known as karswell 2015-12-29T01:34:31Z altphi joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:52:09Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:52:52Z saul joined #scheme 2015-12-29T01:58:38Z jcowan joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:09:44Z aap_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:09:45Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2015-12-29T02:10:15Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:10:23Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:13:21Z aap quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:19:54Z davexunit quit (Quit: Later) 2015-12-29T02:20:08Z agumonkey joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:28:38Z mmc quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:30:46Z joneshf-laptop quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:33:14Z magine joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:38:00Z magine quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-12-29T02:39:13Z joneshf-laptop joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:42:05Z magine joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:47:08Z _sjs joined #scheme 2015-12-29T02:53:38Z \var quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T03:00:23Z spew joined #scheme 2015-12-29T03:12:45Z tmtwd quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-12-29T03:18:35Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T03:26:18Z oleo_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T03:29:38Z oleo quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-29T03:30:22Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T03:30:58Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2015-12-29T03:35:38Z neoncontrails quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-29T03:36:12Z ArneBab_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T03:39:19Z ArneBab quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-29T03:41:12Z pierpa quit (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2015-12-29T03:43:44Z turtleman_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T03:48:20Z n_blownapart joined #scheme 2015-12-29T03:51:38Z n_blownapart: hi I have an exercise from the Little Schemer here. the top and bottom versions in the paste have the two args "old" and "new" reversed. They return the same result. Why is that? Also please explain lines 15-16. I don't see how this is working. thanks : http://pastie.org/10658249 2015-12-29T04:04:30Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T04:06:17Z n_blownapart: anyone who could help ? ^^ 2015-12-29T04:07:17Z jcowan left #scheme 2015-12-29T04:07:33Z jcowan joined #scheme 2015-12-29T04:07:44Z jcowan quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T04:11:40Z badkins quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T04:18:56Z jasom: n_blownapart: I don't see the confusion, could you explain what you expected to see? 2015-12-29T04:26:45Z n_blownapart: jasom, sorry I was preoccupied. one moment please. 2015-12-29T04:29:07Z jasom: n_blownapart: when you reverse the order of the arguments in the definition, then you reverse the order of the arguments in the call to it and get the same value 2015-12-29T04:31:42Z jasom: n_blownapart: http://pastie.org/10658276 2015-12-29T04:33:39Z n_blownapart: jasom, thanks kindly, I am going over that.. 2015-12-29T04:34:40Z n_blownapart: the recursive section, (insertR new old (cdr lat)) , doesn't use cons at all...is that correct jasom ? 2015-12-29T04:35:26Z n_blownapart: the args new and old are not 'cons-ed' onto the cdr in other words.... 2015-12-29T04:35:40Z jasom: right, you really wouldn't want that 2015-12-29T04:36:28Z jasom: reflect for a minute on what this code is doing; it's creating a new list out of all of the old things, until it reaches the terminal case of the recursion, at which point it uses the remainder of the list 2015-12-29T04:36:39Z n_blownapart: so how does the program work. in ruby, I understand how 'pop' and 'push' work generally.. 2015-12-29T04:36:50Z jasom: a list uses a single cons cell for each element in the list 2015-12-29T04:36:58Z jasom: n_blownapart: are you familiar with linked-lists in general? 2015-12-29T04:37:53Z jasom: pop/push in ruby likely (I don't know ruby) operate on what is generally referred to as a vector; lists in scheme are linked lists rather than vectors 2015-12-29T04:38:47Z n_blownapart: I could try to explain what I believe is happening in this program... 2015-12-29T04:39:02Z jasom: this particular implementation of insertR will share-structure with everything after the insertion-point 2015-12-29T04:39:27Z n_blownapart: I don't understand those terms. one sec, if I may explain it to you... 2015-12-29T04:40:49Z jasom: n_blownapart: to start with, a scheme list is nothing like a ruby Array, other than they both store a sequence of values. 2015-12-29T04:40:58Z n_blownapart: in the first part of the list 'I just got a' atoms are each put in a buffer to be cons onto the cdr lat at the end of the recursions... correct? 2015-12-29T04:41:50Z jasom: not really 2015-12-29T04:42:08Z n_blownapart: uh oh, ok. 2015-12-29T04:47:14Z n_blownapart: the way I see it, the last expression, (cdr lat) is the innermost nested expression, but new (red) is fixed to (cdr lat) first, then old (shiny).. so new is further right in the list. Once (cdr lat) is 'prefixed' with shiny red, then cons pushes the "I just got a" atoms onto the (cdr lat) 2015-12-29T04:47:48Z jasom: cons creates a pair which is an object (using the term loosely) with two fieds named "car" and "cdr" 2015-12-29T04:48:30Z n_blownapart: yeah jasom I understand that part so far. 2015-12-29T04:48:52Z jasom: a literal representation of a pair would be (A . B) where A is the car and B is the cdr 2015-12-29T04:48:59Z n_blownapart: ok 2015-12-29T04:49:14Z jasom: writing it this way the list (1 2 3) is the same as (1 . (2 . (3 . ()))) 2015-12-29T04:49:34Z jasom: which is the same thing you get with (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 ()))) 2015-12-29T04:49:47Z jasom: though this is no longer a literal 2015-12-29T04:51:31Z n_blownapart: ok , but in this case cons 2 would be new, and 3 would be old .. so wouldn't shiny be cons first, before red? 2015-12-29T04:51:44Z n_blownapart: cons-ed * 2015-12-29T04:52:19Z jasom: (cons old (cons new (cdr lat)) 2015-12-29T04:52:44Z jasom: od is before new 2015-12-29T04:52:52Z nisstyre_ is now known as nisstyre 2015-12-29T04:53:16Z nisstyre quit (Changing host) 2015-12-29T04:53:16Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2015-12-29T04:53:26Z jasom: and yes you get shiny before red 2015-12-29T04:58:00Z spew quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-29T04:58:20Z n_blownapart: so you're saying old (shiny) is cons-ed onto the cdr first (shiny automobile) then new (red) is cons-ed onto it, and a place is held for it, as per line 11. 2015-12-29T04:58:57Z jasom: no 2015-12-29T04:59:16Z jasom: new is CONS-ed onto (cdr lat) first, then old is consed onto that 2015-12-29T04:59:33Z jasom: which puts old in front of new in the list 2015-12-29T05:01:11Z jasom: just like in (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 ()))) the first thing that happens is you make a pair of (3 . ()) which is the same as (3) then you make a pair of (2 . ) which ends up being (2 3) and finally you make a pair of (1 . ) which ends up being (1 2 3) 2015-12-29T05:01:43Z n_blownapart: ok, the first argument is cons onto cdr, which puts it to the right, then old is one place to the left. So the operation works leftwards from the (cdr lat) 2015-12-29T05:01:57Z ggole joined #scheme 2015-12-29T05:02:08Z jasom: If B is a list then (cons A B) returns a list with the first item in the list being A and the rest of the list being B 2015-12-29T05:02:34Z jasom: correct, it works leftwards from the (cdr lat) 2015-12-29T05:03:29Z physixer quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-29T05:04:59Z n_blownapart: cool, so the order of the operation is from the left. so does it follow that (car lat) is cons last in the order of operations? jasom 2015-12-29T05:05:27Z n_blownapart: ie. "I just got a" 2015-12-29T05:05:35Z jasom: the order of operation is inside-out, just like most languages. 2015-12-29T05:06:34Z jasom: if ruby had pairs and lists this would be like cons(old,cons(new,cdr(lat))) 2015-12-29T05:07:12Z n_blownapart: sorry, but is my last statement true, then? 2015-12-29T05:07:24Z jasom: the order of operations is not from the left. 2015-12-29T05:08:49Z n_blownapart: but car lat is the last element to be cons onto cdr, I meant. 2015-12-29T05:09:08Z jasom: yes 2015-12-29T05:09:29Z n_blownapart: excellent. thanks kindly jasom, I can run with that 2015-12-29T05:10:12Z jasom: no problem, I'm actually new to scheme, but have used common lisp. The languages are extremely different *except* for the part with cons/car/cdr which is quite familiar :) 2015-12-29T05:10:30Z n_blownapart: cool its no cake walk ...! 2015-12-29T05:11:28Z jasom: n_blownapart: I also recommend some elementary CS textbook, which should explain abstract data types such as linked-lists (which scheme's pair is a particular implementation of) 2015-12-29T05:11:46Z jasom: n_blownapart: but that can wait until you are bored with writing programs 2015-12-29T05:13:13Z n_blownapart: jasom, what I couldn't see at first was that new and old are actually cons-ed onto the cdr. there is nothing to insertR at all, except to recurse the program back to the first line. 2015-12-29T05:14:03Z jasom: n_blownapart: right, and when you go out one level of insertR, something else cets consed onto what you return 2015-12-29T05:14:11Z jasom: and so-on and so-forth 2015-12-29T05:14:19Z jasom: it's turtles all the way down 2015-12-29T05:16:43Z n_blownapart: the weird thing is that new is consed first, then old, (left to right) then (car lat) which goes *back* to the right to finish the program. 2015-12-29T05:17:25Z n_blownapart: its like it is nested , for lack of a better term. 2015-12-29T05:17:46Z jasom: Yes exactly it is nested: (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 ()))) 3 is the first thing consed 2015-12-29T05:18:06Z jasom: it's not like it is nested, it is nested 2015-12-29T05:18:26Z jasom: I heard you like function-calls so I put a function-call in the arguments to your function-call 2015-12-29T05:20:19Z n_blownapart: so 2 is consed second, but gets shoved between shiny (3) and automobile (cdr) 2015-12-29T05:21:02Z jasom: not shoved between, there is no shiny yet 2015-12-29T05:21:08Z jasom: not in the list you are building 2015-12-29T05:21:26Z jasom: first you have (automobile) then you have (red automobile) then you have (shiny red automobile) 2015-12-29T05:22:15Z jasom: (cons 'shiny (cons 'red '(automobile))) 2015-12-29T05:23:22Z jasom: in this case lat is (shiny automobile) so (car lat) is shiny and (cdr lat) is (automobile) 2015-12-29T05:29:12Z n_blownapart: eventually, (cons (car lat) adds "I just got a" *after* the above, then... jasom 2015-12-29T05:29:50Z jasom: correct, it happens after you return from this recursive call 2015-12-29T05:30:09Z jasom: on line 8 2015-12-29T05:32:11Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T05:35:09Z n_blownapart: it is odd jasom .. I'm not a programmer yet, though. thanks very much. 2015-12-29T05:35:09Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-29T05:35:41Z jasom: recursion confuses a lot of people; you'll get it eventually 2015-12-29T05:35:51Z turtleman_ quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T05:36:21Z n_blownapart: pax 2015-12-29T05:36:30Z ggole_ is now known as ggole 2015-12-29T05:37:22Z ic2000 joined #scheme 2015-12-29T05:38:41Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T05:40:32Z jasom: n_blownapart: http://pastie.org/10658328 2015-12-29T05:41:07Z jasom: n_blownapart: oops pretend # is just insertR; that was a cut-and-paste error 2015-12-29T05:41:49Z jasom: n_blownapart: fixed version http://pastie.org/10658330 2015-12-29T05:42:11Z ggole quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-29T05:54:09Z n_blownapart: jasom, thanks ! 2015-12-29T05:56:47Z n_blownapart quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-12-29T06:01:05Z ggole_ quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-29T06:03:45Z ggole_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T06:16:19Z ic2000 quit 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(Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-29T14:58:06Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:03:50Z petercommand quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:04:22Z petercommand joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:05:55Z stasku_ quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:07:06Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:08:03Z stasku_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:08:08Z neoncontrails joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:09:33Z jrslepak joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:13:23Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:26:36Z nisstyre joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:28:59Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:34:36Z magine quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:37:49Z jrslepak quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2015-12-29T15:39:13Z Regulator9 quit 2015-12-29T15:41:23Z cemerick joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:42:10Z O7 joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:42:19Z jrslepak joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:48:10Z nalaginrut joined #scheme 2015-12-29T15:48:22Z nalaginrut: Artanis-0.1.1(beta) released! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10807168 2015-12-29T15:52:27Z pierpa: Thanks. And what is Artanis? 2015-12-29T15:53:47Z davexunit: pierpa: it's a web application framework 2015-12-29T15:54:55Z micmus quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T15:59:43Z altphi quit (Quit: somno opus est.) 2015-12-29T16:02:37Z xwl joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:05:19Z jcowan joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:11:42Z altphi joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:12:40Z GGMethos quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:14:25Z GGMethos joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:19:17Z Beluki joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:19:48Z physixer joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:24:20Z _sjs quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:24:26Z pierpa: davexunit: thank you 2015-12-29T16:27:47Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:29:29Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:31:25Z neoncontrails quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T16:31:55Z jyc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:34:13Z mutbuerger quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-12-29T16:35:34Z Riastradh joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:36:23Z mutbuerger joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:37:14Z mutbuerger quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T16:37:15Z phax joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:38:15Z jkraemer quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:39:29Z mutbuerger joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:42:35Z cemerick joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:47:55Z cemerick quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-12-29T16:50:43Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:51:39Z jkraemer joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:58:32Z jyc joined #scheme 2015-12-29T16:58:44Z _sjs joined #scheme 2015-12-29T17:00:34Z Riastradh quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:03:39Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:07:04Z lambda-11235 joined #scheme 2015-12-29T17:10:32Z daviid joined #scheme 2015-12-29T17:13:24Z phax quit (Quit: phax) 2015-12-29T17:33:23Z mmc quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:37:56Z nalaginrut quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:51:06Z psy_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T17:51:32Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:54:08Z karswell quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-12-29T17:57:13Z jcowan joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:02:05Z mlrutherford joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:07:49Z jcowan_ joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:11:41Z jcowan quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-12-29T18:12:39Z \var joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:22:58Z cemerick joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:23:05Z xwl quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-12-29T18:23:54Z snits joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:26:24Z turbopape quit (Quit: Quitte) 2015-12-29T18:34:20Z sheilong joined #scheme 2015-12-29T18:34:37Z sz0 quit (Quit: Bye.) 2015-12-29T18:49:26Z nzambe quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - 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