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2015-12-17T10:49:32Z cousteau: let me get this right... when I write something like   (+ 1 (* 2 3))   that's a list containing the elements +, 1, and (* 2 3) which is itself another list, right?
2015-12-17T10:49:42Z antoszka: yes
2015-12-17T10:51:22Z cousteau: And when I evaluate it, then both the 1 and the (* 2 3) are evaluated, but only because the + "command" says "in order to evaluate this list, you have to evaluate all the remaining elements of this list and then calculate their sum", right?
2015-12-17T10:53:43Z cousteau: i.e. it's not like when I do something like   add(1, mult(2, 3))   in C, where the add() function has no way to know how the arguments were passed; they are evaluated and then passed to the function.  In Scheme and other Lisps, the list are kept "as is" until they are explicitly required to be evaluated?
2015-12-17T10:53:54Z antoszka: nope
2015-12-17T10:54:00Z cousteau: ...damn
2015-12-17T10:54:22Z antoszka: in normal evaluation all the elements are evaluated from the leaves of the tree up
2015-12-17T10:54:55Z antoszka: only when you have special forms/macros (this could be a CL-specific term, not 100% sure of that applies to scheme) then certain parts of the tree might not be evaluated:
2015-12-17T10:54:58Z antoszka: as in:
2015-12-17T10:55:07Z antoszka: (if (foo) (bar) (baz))
2015-12-17T10:55:18Z cousteau: hmm, I don't like that...
2015-12-17T10:55:19Z antoszka: assume that (bar) and (baz) cause side-effects
2015-12-17T10:55:49Z antoszka: if foo were a standard function: all three: FOO, BAR and BAZ would be evaluated (causing possible side-effects)
2015-12-17T10:55:57Z antoszka: and their return values would be passed to the if function
2015-12-17T10:56:03Z antoszka: but since if is a special form
2015-12-17T10:56:09Z antoszka: only BAR or BAZ will be evaluated
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2015-12-17T10:56:22Z antoszka: depending on whether the output of FOO is true or false
2015-12-17T10:56:23Z cousteau: so there are "special commands that are magical" and "regular functions"...  damn, I don't like that too much
2015-12-17T10:56:27Z antoszka: yes.
2015-12-17T10:56:30Z antoszka: unfortunately.
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2015-12-17T10:59:41Z cousteau: in Tcl, for example, there's very little magic (or rather, everything is equally magical).  Only, it relays in strings rather than lists.  But things are either evaluated or are not; [if] and [for] are commands just like [puts] or any other; you could actually rewrite [if] the same way you write any custom command ("function").
2015-12-17T11:00:08Z jackdaniel: cousteau: in lisp you can write your own special operators as well
2015-12-17T11:00:24Z jackdaniel: that's what's this macro fuss about
2015-12-17T11:00:33Z cousteau: yeah, I recently saw the (define-syntax) thing which I guess will be related to that
2015-12-17T11:01:18Z jackdaniel: generally it's also not that magical. Macros just operate at different time - at the time of compilation, not the run-time
2015-12-17T11:01:37Z antoszka: yep
2015-12-17T11:01:44Z cousteau: oh I see, so in a way they ARE like C macros
2015-12-17T11:01:51Z antoszka: well, no ;)
2015-12-17T11:02:07Z antoszka: C macros are textual replacements
2015-12-17T11:02:10Z antoszka: mostly
2015-12-17T11:02:26Z jackdaniel: if you consider only the time when they work, then yes. But macros are lisp functions, not a preprocessor
2015-12-17T11:02:27Z cousteau: they are like C macros in that they are compile time expressions; not sure how "smart" they are
2015-12-17T11:02:34Z jackdaniel: so you can use all the goods programming language provides
2015-12-17T11:02:35Z cousteau: C macros definitely aren't
2015-12-17T11:02:47Z cousteau: (aren't smart)
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2015-12-17T11:05:08Z cousteau: jackdaniel, so your point is that they are written in the same language as the rest, executed as a normal lisp function when the program is compiled/parsed, and replaced by their result?
2015-12-17T11:05:18Z jackdaniel: exactly
2015-12-17T11:08:20Z jackdaniel: however I might have introduced some wrong statement – special forms aren't macros
2015-12-17T11:08:24Z cousteau: so they'd be more like VHDL's (and probably Ada's) functions that only depend (directly or recursively) on constant parameters -- those can be used to initialize constants, for example, so you can go crazy with unsynthesizable functionality (file I/O, real math, logarithms...) and whatever you do will "stay in the computer", not end up as part of the synthesized design
2015-12-17T11:08:47Z cousteau: jackdaniel, ok
2015-12-17T11:11:07Z cousteau: VHDL example:   signal a, b;   a <= something;  b <= a/3; -- not synthesizable!
2015-12-17T11:11:08Z jackdaniel: cousteau: macros are functions, but ran at a different time. They may depend on some parameters (ie variables) which are available at their run-time (that is compile-time of compiled entity)
2015-12-17T11:11:36Z cousteau: however   constant a := something;  b := a/3; -- totally fine!
2015-12-17T11:12:28Z jackdaniel: generally in lisp time of compilation and run-time are not clearly separated - you may compile things at the runtime (at least it's true for common lisp)
2015-12-17T11:12:55Z cousteau: ...also in C you can go rather crazy with macros that use constants and probably not end up with actual CPU instructions
2015-12-17T11:15:02Z jackdaniel: cousteau: I think that you should read some book going into these topics to avoid confusion (ie poor word choose, or even mistakes and wrong statements)
2015-12-17T11:17:08Z cousteau: example:   #define CLK 16000000   #define TICKS(freq) ((int) ((double) CLK / freq - 1))   some_register = TICKS(261.63);   will (likely) not involve any floating point operation at all, since the whole thing TICKS() will be replaced by can be calculated at compile time
2015-12-17T11:17:50Z cousteau: ...well, I guess I'll read about Scheme macros
2015-12-17T11:18:55Z jackdaniel: cousteau: you can compute some stuff and compilation time of course
2015-12-17T11:19:02Z jackdaniel: s/and/at/
2015-12-17T11:19:52Z cousteau: yeah... well, in my previous C example if I did something like   some_register = TICKS(some_variable)   then stuff wouldn't be able to be calculated at compile time
2015-12-17T11:25:42Z cousteau: I wonder if there are "less magical" Lisp variants that are more homogeneous regarding forms / special forms / macros...  Not sure if what I have in mind (a "purely functional language that does everything in a homogeneous way") can be feasibly implemented at all
2015-12-17T11:25:51Z cousteau: ...although I'd say Tcl is close
2015-12-17T11:27:50Z jackdaniel: cousteau: some special operators must exist in every language
2015-12-17T11:27:53Z jackdaniel: take if statement
2015-12-17T11:27:59Z jackdaniel: it can't evaluate *everything*
2015-12-17T11:28:24Z jackdaniel: I believe lisp is the closest to what you want to achieve, just don't write macros
2015-12-17T11:28:50Z jackdaniel: however you get rid of a great tool unique to this language
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2015-12-17T13:32:08Z cousteau: jackdaniel, well, in the case of Tcl it's more like "all 'operators' are equally special" in that they can choose whether or not to evaluate their arguments
2015-12-17T13:33:02Z cousteau: getting rid of a great tool of a language wouldn't be a big concern for me since I want to learn a paradigm and explore ideas rather than learning Scheme specifically
2015-12-17T13:35:26Z cousteau: "Chapter 14 -- Nondeterminism"  omg, NOW I'm scared.
2015-12-17T13:36:06Z cousteau: ...otoh, if I understand correctly what quantum computers are, this would make Scheme an excellent tool for those
2015-12-17T13:40:30Z cousteau: come to think of it, (amb) is something horribly complicated, hard to understand, and, unfortunately for me, probably very useful to learn in my quest for functional languages
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2015-12-17T13:41:05Z saul: (amb) ?!
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2015-12-17T13:41:48Z cousteau: ...maybe that's some sort of dialectal Scheme
2015-12-17T13:41:59Z wasamasa: inb4 it's from On Lisp
2015-12-17T13:42:14Z wasamasa: schemers are less into weird macros
2015-12-17T13:43:28Z cousteau: saul, I was reading a Scheme tutorial and they say there's an (amb 1 2) can result in either 1 or 2.  However, (amb) alone is erroneous.  And the cool thing, (amb 1 (amb)) and (amb (amb) 1) both will ALWAYS produce 1, since they cannot produce the other option because it's erroneous
2015-12-17T13:44:06Z cousteau: it's something I'd expect from Haskell or even Prolog, rather than Lisps
2015-12-17T13:45:04Z cousteau: (hmm, it's not as hard as I thought actually)
2015-12-17T13:45:25Z saul: cousteau, basically your functions with unevaluated arguments are what used to be known as "fexprs". Early Lisp had them explicitly but they were eliminated about 20 years ago because they caused problems with optimizations.
2015-12-17T13:45:43Z cousteau: saul, oh I see!
2015-12-17T13:46:05Z cousteau: actually I'm more interested in paradigms than actual implementations so those might be useful for me
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2015-12-17T13:49:30Z cousteau: I'm basically toying with the idea of how to implement a function/program as a digital circuit (this already exists; it's called "high level synthesis").  First thing I thought was that a purely functional, non-recursive/iterative language would be trivial to implement as a pipelined circuit.  However that'd be a very limited and boring language.
2015-12-17T13:49:55Z wasamasa: did you just call arrowlisp boring??
2015-12-17T13:50:18Z cousteau: So I started thinking "Hmm, how do ACTUAL functional programming languages handle this sort of thing?"  and that's how I ended up deciding to learn Lisp.
2015-12-17T13:50:34Z wasamasa: rudybot: who needs constants anyways when there's symbols...
2015-12-17T13:50:35Z cousteau: wasamasa, it depends.  Can arrowlisp calculate a factorial or a Fibonacci number?
2015-12-17T13:50:38Z rudybot: wasamasa: there's not really constants in elisp anyways
2015-12-17T13:50:52Z wasamasa: cousteau: of course, it's just reaaally painful to do
2015-12-17T13:51:11Z wasamasa: cousteau: because you don't have number literals
2015-12-17T13:51:12Z cousteau: well, as I understand it, it shouldn't be painful, it should be impossible
2015-12-17T13:51:16Z cousteau: oh
2015-12-17T13:51:24Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/arrowlisp
2015-12-17T13:51:38Z wasamasa: I've mirrored it today because someone on ##lisp did ask whether anyone had seen a tarball
2015-12-17T13:51:49Z cousteau: I see
2015-12-17T13:52:03Z wasamasa: and finding it wasn't the easiest thing to do, so I decided to share it with you!
2015-12-17T13:52:18Z wasamasa: https://github.com/wasamasa/arrowlisp/blob/master/src/misc/fact.l
2015-12-17T13:52:52Z cousteau: so aside from the not-too-interesting fact that that language has no integer constants (well, it could be interesting, but not for me), does it not have loops or recursion either?
2015-12-17T13:53:04Z wasamasa: my favourite is https://github.com/wasamasa/arrowlisp/blob/master/src/misc/bottles.l though
2015-12-17T13:53:05Z cousteau: ...nah, it has letrec
2015-12-17T13:53:20Z wasamasa: "Numbers are represented by lists of digits."
2015-12-17T13:53:34Z wasamasa: because what you think is a number is actually a symbol :P
2015-12-17T13:53:56Z wasamasa: so you have to do fun things like implementing a really stupid pred function
2015-12-17T13:54:10Z cousteau: that's not a very complicated definition of number
2015-12-17T13:54:19Z wasamasa: no, just an impractical one
2015-12-17T13:54:44Z cousteau: this is: "0 is the empty set; any other natural number is the set of all numbers before it"
2015-12-17T13:54:53Z wasamasa: it's hard to believe people in the seventies and eighties thought this to be the solution to AI :D
2015-12-17T13:55:05Z wasamasa: "We have symbols, we can solve everything!"
2015-12-17T13:56:17Z cousteau: so 0 is {}; 1 is {0}, i.e. {{}}; 2 is {0,1}, i.e. {{},{{}}}; 3 is {0,1,2}, i.e. {{},{{}},{{},{{}}}}, and I won't continue because I already got lost at 3
2015-12-17T13:56:47Z cousteau: and as a funny note, I once *accidentally* wrote a Tcl program that generated that sequence
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2015-12-17T13:58:06Z cousteau: instead of doing something like   list1 = {}; for i in list2: append i to list1   I did   append list1 to list1
2015-12-17T14:03:00Z cousteau: and BAM!  That mistake generated a beautiful mathematical sequence of empty sets.  I have to say I was surprised to get a known mathematical sequence by accident.
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2015-12-17T14:05:35Z cousteau: anyway, wasamasa, I think  that's not what I was looking for; I said "purely functional and non-recursive/iterative", not "purely symbolic"
2015-12-17T14:06:01Z saul: cousteau, you might enjoy some of the blog archives of the following blog: http://kazimirmajorinc.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2011-01-01T00:00:00%2B01:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00%2B01:00&max-results=32
2015-12-17T14:06:01Z rudybot: http://teensy.info/sH1QMoR6m4
2015-12-17T14:07:35Z wasamasa: cousteau: it claims to be purely functional as well
2015-12-17T14:07:52Z cousteau: hmm
2015-12-17T14:08:05Z wasamasa: or no, "side-effect free"
2015-12-17T14:08:09Z wasamasa: that's different :P
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2015-12-17T14:08:40Z cousteau: indeed; a function can be impure without having side effects
2015-12-17T14:08:50Z cousteau: e.g. if it uses "global variables"
2015-12-17T14:09:00Z cousteau: or any other sort of state
2015-12-17T14:09:36Z cousteau: well, the first obstacle I found was that implementing either recursion or iteration was complicated, but you probably *need* one of the two for making most of the stuff
2015-12-17T14:10:21Z wasamasa: why?
2015-12-17T14:10:26Z wasamasa: iteration is essentially a goto
2015-12-17T14:10:57Z wasamasa: and recursion, well, keeping track of the context and doing another call
2015-12-17T14:11:04Z cousteau: Iteration makes the time or number of steps the program takes indeterminate, so it clashes with the "pipelined circuit" idea I had in mind.  Plus it (probably) requires some sort of "jump back to position N", which makes sense for computers but not for circuits.
2015-12-17T14:12:16Z cousteau: Recursion provides a way to implement loops, BUT it requires you to have multiple copies of each variable... weird and hard to implement in hardware; probably easier to just implement iteration.
2015-12-17T14:14:06Z cousteau: ...then again, I guess I could do nice things even without allowing recursion, if I didn't care that "programs" have to "wait"
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2015-12-17T18:47:32Z amz3: héllo schemers!
2015-12-17T18:47:58Z amz3: does anyone has feedback to do on biwascheme?
2015-12-17T18:48:04Z amz3: http://www.biwascheme.org/
2015-12-17T18:48:26Z amz3: I intend to use for a non trivial project, I'd like to know if they are any known road blockers
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2015-12-17T18:59:15Z daviid: amz3: maybe you should consider Kawa
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2015-12-17T19:01:02Z cojy: amz3: it's slow and i think it doesn't have macros?
2015-12-17T19:01:24Z daviid: amz3: if you need scheme on top of java, for a serious project, use kawa
2015-12-17T19:01:47Z mario-goulart: daviid: does Kawa compile to JavaScript?
2015-12-17T19:02:03Z amz3: it's for doing browser stuff not java, I have Guile to do Java stuff :)
2015-12-17T19:02:31Z amz3: yes biwascheme doesn't have macros :(
2015-12-17T19:02:36Z daviid: mario-goulart: don't know if this is a strict requirement for amz3, and I don't know if kawa does, you would know better then I I guess :)
2015-12-17T19:03:26Z mario-goulart: I really don't know.  I _think_ it doesn't, but since you suggested it, maybe things changed. :-)
2015-12-17T19:04:00Z daviid: I don't know
2015-12-17T19:04:09Z mario-goulart: ok
2015-12-17T19:05:45Z mario-goulart: amz3: I think gambit has a javascript backend, and there's spock for CHICKEN.
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2015-12-17T19:07:29Z jcowan: Biwa is an interpreter, whereas Spock is a compiler, so Spock will be much faster.
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2015-12-17T19:32:26Z pjb: jcowan: really?  So Spock won't spend hundreds of milliseconds to compile a program, before executing it.  It will start executing the program before the interpreter?  My EYE!
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2015-12-17T19:37:08Z jcowan: pjb's eye:  You misunderstand me.  Spock compiles Scheme to JS offline.  Biwa is a classical interpreter that happens to be written in JS.
2015-12-17T19:38:03Z pjb: jcowan: I know. I complain about the unqualified "faster".
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2015-12-17T19:38:27Z jcowan: In a JS context, surely what happens offline (minification etc.) does not count against speed.
2015-12-17T19:38:29Z pjb: What's faster is running the compiled code vs. running the interpreted code.  But compilation takes time.
2015-12-17T19:39:03Z pjb: So Spock is a batch offline compiler, not a in-line interactive compiler.
2015-12-17T19:39:23Z pjb: Do they plan to update to webassembly?
2015-12-17T19:39:59Z mario-goulart: Is webassembly even a thing?
2015-12-17T19:40:00Z jcowan: I have no idea; I have nothing to do with Spock, which is not really part of Chicken (it's implemented with Chicken, but that's all)
2015-12-17T19:40:25Z jcowan: A more reasonable question at this point was whether it can be made to generate asm.js.  It surely doesn't now.
2015-12-17T19:40:52Z pjb: ok
2015-12-17T19:41:19Z jcowan: Actually, counting offline compile time against program speed isn't sensible in any context.  Otherwise we'd say that Stalin is a mechanism for immensely slowing down your Scheme programs.
2015-12-17T19:41:50Z jcowan: WHich is certainly true if you run them only once.
2015-12-17T19:42:26Z pjb: well, when you program in lisp, either interactively, or with run-time code generation, this matters.
2015-12-17T19:42:28Z mario-goulart: Also C programs.
2015-12-17T19:42:52Z jcowan nods.
2015-12-17T19:43:08Z pjb: This is why a lot of implementations actually have both an interpreter and a compiler (sometimes even multiple compilers, including a byte-code compiler with a byte-code VM, in addition to a native code compiler).
2015-12-17T19:43:09Z jcowan: pjb: But in neither case is that offline.
2015-12-17T19:43:18Z pjb: Yes.
2015-12-17T19:43:19Z taylan: shameless advertisement: GNU Guix, the "purely functional" package manager and whole-OS (GNU/Linux) configuration/deployment tool written in Guile Scheme is taking donations for new servers  https://my.fsf.org/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=50
2015-12-17T19:44:15Z jcowan: taylan: hey ho
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2015-12-17T19:44:34Z taylan: hi :)
2015-12-17T19:48:01Z jcowan: I wish I could figure out what to do with publicly exposed hash functions with respect to bounds and salt.
2015-12-17T19:48:52Z jcowan: Will Clinger argues, I think rightly, that it does not make sense either to force a hf to accept a bound (as the SRFI 69 ref impl does), nor is it even very useful to the framework to pass a bound, as not all hfs will respect it anyway.
2015-12-17T19:49:15Z jcowan: OTOH, hash functions should respect salt, but it's unclear how to pass it in a way that works cleanly with exposed hash functions.
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2015-12-17T19:50:44Z jcowan: To pass salt as a second argument would make sense if the world weren't already polluted with the assumption that second arguments are bounds.
2015-12-17T19:53:05Z C-Keen: does it have to be api compatible in any way?
2015-12-17T19:54:53Z jcowan: We have two candidates for hash tables, SRFI 69/125 and R6RS/SRFI 126.  We also have SRFI 128, on which 125 depends, and which is about exposed hash functions.
2015-12-17T19:56:04Z jcowan: SRFI 69 does not require that hfs accept a second argument, but the sample implementation (used by Chicken among others) actually does.  In R6RS there is no second argument.
2015-12-17T19:57:02Z jcowan: But the concern is that people who want to write portable hfs have written them to work in SRFI 69 as implemented (though not all implementations use the sample implementation) and make them accept a second arg which they either interpret as bounds or ignore altogether.
2015-12-17T19:57:15Z jcowan: It's a social, not a technical problem.  In short, the Lisp Curse has struck!
2015-12-17T20:00:17Z C-Keen: I don't see a good compatible way of fixing this, unless you are willing to introduce keyword arguments (which I think is not really portable either is it?)
2015-12-17T20:00:52Z jcowan: No, they aren't.
2015-12-17T20:01:26Z C-Keen: so what are the other options?
2015-12-17T20:01:49Z jcowan: Possible hacks are to use a parameter for current-salt, but you have to be very careful that if you call a hash function anywhere near hash table operations, that it is properly restored, or the hash table won't be searchable.
2015-12-17T20:02:09Z jcowan: Another idea is to allow salt to be set once per process only, which eliminates some of its more interesting uses.
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2015-12-17T20:02:47Z C-Keen: especially when implementing somehting like bcrypt
2015-12-17T20:02:51Z LeoNerd: Perl a few years ago spent quite some time studying security/etc.. implications of the ways that internal hashing works... might be some discussiosn there worth reading
2015-12-17T20:04:20Z C-Keen: jcowan: hm srfi 128 depends on srfi 125?
2015-12-17T20:04:38Z jcowan: No, vice versa
2015-12-17T20:04:59Z C-Keen: I see
2015-12-17T20:05:03Z jcowan: LeoNerd: However, Perl doesn't expose hash functions for public use
2015-12-17T20:05:20Z jcowan: The original design used SRFI 114, but 128 is the replacement for 114.
2015-12-17T20:05:35Z LeoNerd: jcowan: Not /directly/, but the security properties of them are important because that's how the core associative data structure works
2015-12-17T20:05:46Z jcowan: Oh yes.
2015-12-17T20:06:20Z jcowan: But there is no need to juggle different salts for different hashes, as you do in bcrypt, or if you want a distinct salt for each hash table.
2015-12-17T20:06:44Z jcowan: (And expect existing hash tables to work correctly.)
2015-12-17T20:07:03Z LeoNerd: Ahh.. that kind of hash
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2015-12-17T20:13:42Z jcowan: Yeah, that's why I'm careful to talk of hash tables and hash functions (hfs), never just hashes
2015-12-17T20:13:51Z jcowan: or, well, a hash is the result of calling a hash function
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