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2015-06-14T07:35:58Z jusss:  (+ 3 (reset (- 3 (shift k (begin (set! a k) (k 3)))))) => 3, ok it's normal, (a 0) => 3, why ? it shouldn't be -3 ?
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2015-06-14T07:37:57Z jusss: I'm learning delimited continuation now, and there's another control-flow except shift/reset ?
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2015-06-14T07:58:37Z jusss: my mistake, (- 3 x) is 3-x , is not x-3
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2015-06-14T11:36:31Z ilammy: There is no way to make a self-referntial record without it being mutable, right?
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2015-06-14T11:39:36Z pjb: Well, there are ways to make immutable data structures that represent self referential objects.
2015-06-14T11:40:18Z pjb: But otherwise, yes.
2015-06-14T11:41:09Z pjb: ilammy: that said, notice that even when you are dealing with immutable data structures, you have constructors that are _mutators_ of the memory system.
2015-06-14T11:41:24Z pjb: ilammy: therefore you could as well have immutable circular data structure constructors.
2015-06-14T11:41:50Z pjb: And this is what we do, basically, most of the time in lisp: we limit mutation to constructor-like functions.
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2015-06-14T11:42:52Z pjb: (define (circular-list . elements) …) (circular-list 1 2 3) --> #1=(1 2 3 . #1#)
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2015-06-14T11:44:34Z ilammy: Well, yeah. When I use mutators or linear update procedures, they always happen to be in make-something procedures which appear to be pure to the external code.
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2015-06-14T11:45:09Z ilammy: Anyway, it's more like edge-case concern.
2015-06-14T11:45:53Z ilammy: I can have a technically mutable record, but not export setters from a module, so that effectively it would be immutable.
2015-06-14T11:46:06Z pjb: Of course.
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2015-06-14T11:48:28Z ilammy: Also, SRFI 99 allows to extract that mutator anyway and do bad stuff, but meh.
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2015-06-14T11:49:59Z ilammy: I don't see how this could be achieved without either special-casing circular structures, or intercessing the constructors
2015-06-14T11:50:28Z pjb: ilammy: the fundamental question, is try to implement cons without mutation.
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2015-06-14T12:10:11Z ilammy: (define (cons a d) (lambda (p) (p a d)))
2015-06-14T12:10:17Z ilammy: (define (car p) (p (lambda (a d) a)))
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2015-06-14T12:10:20Z ilammy: (define (cdr p) (p (lambda (a d) d)))
2015-06-14T12:10:25Z pjb: lambda creates a closure by mutation. Try again.
2015-06-14T12:11:12Z ilammy: Well, if you dig *that* deep, nothing in lisp is done without mutation. IP register is mutated if you do anything.
2015-06-14T12:11:35Z pjb: ilammy: yes.  This is why the stand against mutation is fundamentally dumb.
2015-06-14T12:11:57Z pjb: I mean, when you have immutable conses by default in Racket, and stuff like that. It's just silly.
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2015-06-14T12:32:11Z eli: pjb: You're absolutely correct.
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2015-06-14T12:32:21Z eli: Immutable lists are a ridiculous concept since ultimately they're implemented via mutation.
2015-06-14T12:32:32Z eli: This is very much in the same way that those "Goto Statement Considered Harmful" lunatics are wrong.
2015-06-14T12:32:46Z eli: Structured programming is a nice academic exercise, which works well for small examples, but I doubt that any real-world program will ever be written in such a style.
2015-06-14T12:33:19Z scoofy: most real-world programs are written in structured style.
2015-06-14T12:33:36Z eli: We, in the real world, should just stick to our FORTRAN code, and these academic fads will eventually dissipate.
2015-06-14T12:35:02Z eli: scoofy: (google "Goto Statement Considered Harmful", and don't tell pjb that the 60s are long gone; he'll might suffer a severe trauma if he wakes up.)
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2015-06-14T12:35:19Z eli: s/'ll//
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2015-06-14T12:42:07Z scoofy: 'Following in the footsteps of Godwin’s Law, we can draw a similar maxim: As a theoretical debate grows longer, the probability of a “considered harmful” essay approaches one.'
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2015-06-14T12:45:04Z taylanub: I think mutation-phobia is silly but not because "it's implemented via mutation anyway"
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2015-06-14T12:46:05Z taylanub: that wouldn't be very different from saying "let's just write in assembly because the compiler produces assembly anyway"
2015-06-14T12:48:01Z taylanub: staying away from mutation for the sake of program clarity only makes sense insofar .. well, insofar it actually makes programs clearer.  some algorithms are very naturally expressed via local/encapsulated mutation
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2015-06-14T12:50:10Z taylanub: though there's also the case where a language and its implementation are fine-tuned for non-mutating algorithms, such that the compiler has it easy.  in those cases you're back to the usual clarity vs. efficiency trade-off: do I contrive my code to make the compiler's life easier?  just this time you contrive your code by avoiding mutation.
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2015-06-14T12:51:37Z taylanub: (compiler or run-time.  e.g. Haskell's garbage collecter needn't put write barriers in place when the language ensures that old objects can't gain references to new objects via mutation.)
2015-06-14T12:52:16Z eli: taylanub: That's very true -- note that Racket very much holds onto mutation, just makes it a little more tamed than the rarely needed completely mutable cons cells.
2015-06-14T12:52:43Z taylanub: yeah, good choice I think
2015-06-14T12:52:45Z pjdelport: Mutation above a certain interface is very different to mutation below that interface.
2015-06-14T12:53:56Z eli: taylanub: note that there are still the wild-west things in the form of `mpairs`, but in most racket code you'll see lists + boxes for mutable elements (or hashes/vectors/etc, of course)
2015-06-14T12:54:01Z pjdelport: It's not like Haskell becomes a language with mutation because the GHC runtime is part C, and mutates internally.
2015-06-14T12:54:36Z pjdelport: It's a question of what the level of abstraction you're working at provides.
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2015-06-14T12:56:17Z eli: pjdelport: IMO Haskell is a good demonstration of the taking-it-too-far side: try to ban all mutation; then come up with obscure ways that allows you to write code which is the same mess you get in any imperative langugae; and worse: open up backdoors for cases where you just want unsafe IO...
2015-06-14T12:59:32Z LeoNerd: This is what I like about Scheme - the '!' key
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2015-06-14T13:03:45Z pjdelport: I certainly like both. I think Scheme and Haskell are good complements. :)
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2015-06-14T13:42:19Z taylanub: I wonder if there are any credible Scheme implementations that can't partial-apply ((lambda (x) (foo x)) y) into (foo y)
2015-06-14T13:43:06Z taylanub: er, Guile turns it into a 'let' usage, WTH :\
2015-06-14T13:43:29Z taylanub: hm, is there something I'm missing that makes that an invalid optimization when foo and y are free variables?
2015-06-14T13:44:15Z taylanub: argh, evaluation order
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2015-06-14T13:46:27Z ilammy: Evaluation order is unspecified only for arguments
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2015-06-14T13:47:06Z ilammy: so ((lambda (x) (foo x)) y) = (let ((x y)) (foo x)) = (foo y)
2015-06-14T13:47:33Z ilammy: in this very case at least
2015-06-14T13:49:36Z ilammy: I guess it cannot be optimized that way only when x is set! and there's some stuff with continuations going on
2015-06-14T13:49:37Z taylanub: wonder if much would be lost if the 'lambda' based implementation of 'begin' was invalidated and the evaluation order in that case left unspecified
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2015-06-14T13:51:22Z ilammy: I thought Scheme explicitly requires call-by-value semantics, so lambda-based begin can never be invalidated
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2015-06-14T13:52:14Z taylanub: yeah, I wonder how big of a difference it would be to allow call-by-need
2015-06-14T13:54:40Z taylanub: maybe I subconsciously rely on call-by-value all the time because I'm so used to it, but at first thought I can't think of many situations where in (foo (bar)) it would bother me that some code from foo ran before bar.  if bar mutates something in a way affecting foo, then that code probably needs some refactoring for clarity anyway :)
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2015-06-14T13:56:41Z taylanub: that being said, I intuitively *do* expect the value forms in a let expression to run before the body -- it's the first thing that came to mind when I asked myself how I'd refactor said code to make it clearer: (let ((x (bar))) (foo x))
2015-06-14T13:56:41Z ilammy: Well, you still can have if-based begin :)
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2015-06-14T13:59:15Z ilammy: duh... I finally understood what you meant by 'evaluation order'
2015-06-14T13:59:40Z ilammy: like, that (bar) could (set! foo something)
2015-06-14T14:00:12Z ilammy: and it depends on the evaluation order what procedure would be called in the end
2015-06-14T14:00:58Z ilammy: either the application is evaluated as 'foo' > '(bar)' > call, or '(bar)' > 'foo' > call
2015-06-14T14:01:26Z taylanub: indeed
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2015-06-14T14:02:28Z ilammy: well, I guess (let ((x y)) ...) could be optimized as 'simple enough' renaming
2015-06-14T14:03:28Z ilammy: but if there is some call instead of y then it depends on what the compiler is able to prove about its side effects
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2015-06-14T14:13:40Z pjb: ilammy: exactly.
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