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2015-05-09T00:24:18Z WickedJargon: Hello
2015-05-09T00:24:38Z pjb: Kitty
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2015-05-09T01:02:57Z pnpuff: ...darkness my old friend, but now it's no more a sound :-)
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2015-05-09T02:06:09Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/repl.html <- now that most of r4rs is working ... I offer a REPL ;-)
2015-05-09T02:07:04Z kephra: main differences: no cons cells, no continuations (yet)
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2015-05-09T02:08:13Z kephra: minor differences: symbols are always lower case, characters are strings, vectors are lists, macros are only simple lisp marcos
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2015-05-09T02:47:45Z Tbone139: Is there anything obvious I could do here to improve performance? http://paste.lisp.org/display/147973
2015-05-09T02:47:56Z Tbone139: solution to this problem http://www.reddit.com/r/dailyprogrammer/comments/358pfk/20150508_challenge_213_hard_stepstring_discrepancy/
2015-05-09T02:47:56Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/GP0Y5cgXj8
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2015-05-09T03:10:50Z WickedJargon: Hello, I am starting out with MIT’s famous scheme intro book Sructure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, but I am concerned that my lack of a good foundation in algebra and calculus will hinder me.
2015-05-09T03:11:00Z WickedJargon: Do you think i should quit while i’m ahead?
2015-05-09T03:12:43Z Tbone139: I'd see it as an opportunity to fill those gaps in knowledge one at a time as you come to them
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2015-05-09T03:14:10Z WickedJargon: Thank You.
2015-05-09T03:16:00Z WickedJargon: I was considering filling in the gaps before attempting this book. From highschool algebra/calc books
2015-05-09T03:18:37Z zacts: WickedJargon: I can help you
2015-05-09T03:18:42Z zacts: I'm doing the same thing
2015-05-09T03:18:49Z zacts: I'm reviewing my math too
2015-05-09T03:18:55Z zacts: so, I can show you the path I'm taking
2015-05-09T03:19:02Z zacts: or that I've taken
2015-05-09T03:19:07Z WickedJargon: Oh thanks. that’d be helpful
2015-05-09T03:19:26Z zacts: WickedJargon: you may have to check out from your libraries, or purchase, or find online somewhere a few books
2015-05-09T03:19:42Z zacts: but, I'm starting with the MIT opencourseware Logic I 2009
2015-05-09T03:19:47Z zacts: the corresponding book
2015-05-09T03:19:54Z zacts: and then there is another book to read before that one
2015-05-09T03:20:23Z zacts: http://www.amazon.com/How-Prove-It-Structured-Approach/dp/0521675995
2015-05-09T03:20:28Z zacts: ^ This book will teach you math proofs
2015-05-09T03:20:44Z zacts: you'll want to probably hang out on ##math and ##logic on freenode
2015-05-09T03:20:59Z WickedJargon: great
2015-05-09T03:21:12Z zacts: then you'll want to learn up to calculus, I'm following the mit opencourseware calculus classes, and the mit ocw hilights of calculus
2015-05-09T03:21:25Z zacts: also, the mit math for computer science (after you do mit calc I) will be good
2015-05-09T03:21:34Z zacts: I think at that point you should be pretty good to go
2015-05-09T03:21:52Z zacts: as long as you know high school algebra (quadratic equations)
2015-05-09T03:21:59Z zacts: you can understand the how to prove it book
2015-05-09T03:22:18Z zacts: and if you know Trigonometry and Pre-Calculus stuff you can do the MIT calculus
2015-05-09T03:22:41Z zacts: and there is MIT Algebra I / MIT Algebra II too (which need a book to complete them)
2015-05-09T03:22:44Z zacts: so hope this helps
2015-05-09T03:23:39Z WickedJargon: Thank you, i’ve copy/pasted your messages.
2015-05-09T03:23:59Z WickedJargon: and i’m checking out the MIT opencourse page.
2015-05-09T03:24:04Z zacts: I would do it roughly in this order: Math Proofs -> MIT ocw Logic I with the book 2009 -> a Trigonometry book in prep for calculus -> Pre-Calculus book or something -> MIT ocw hilights of calculus -> MIT ocw Calculus I -> MIT ocw Math for Computer Science lectures -> MIT ocw Calculus II / III
2015-05-09T03:24:14Z zacts: also check out khan academy for online tutorials
2015-05-09T03:24:17Z zacts: :-)
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2015-05-09T03:24:39Z WickedJargon: Oh, yes i have used khan in the past. ages ago
2015-05-09T03:24:40Z zacts: but if you think about it, imo, all math comes from the core from deductive logic and philosophy
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2015-05-09T03:25:14Z zacts: so if you understand the sentential logic and quantificational logics well, it will give you a good math foundation, imo
2015-05-09T03:25:23Z zacts: and those are the first two ch's of how to prove it
2015-05-09T03:25:32Z WickedJargon: I see.
2015-05-09T03:25:39Z zacts: but some of the exercises in SICP do require proofs
2015-05-09T03:25:45Z zacts: and calculus references are in SICP
2015-05-09T03:26:04Z zacts: but, really I don't think SICP is as math heavy as many have it out to be, so perhaps some of my above recommendations are overkill
2015-05-09T03:26:04Z WickedJargon: I took mathimatical logic in my first year. I dropped out. bad professor.
2015-05-09T03:26:19Z WickedJargon: No I think it is helpful
2015-05-09T03:26:21Z zacts: WickedJargon: well, ask on #logic on freenode or ##math if you need help
2015-05-09T03:26:38Z zacts: or if I'm on irc, you can ask me too
2015-05-09T03:26:45Z zacts: but I may be busy will school soon too
2015-05-09T03:26:55Z WickedJargon: understood
2015-05-09T03:27:00Z WickedJargon: may i ask what you are majoring in?
2015-05-09T03:27:06Z zacts: WickedJargon: I'm still trying to decide
2015-05-09T03:27:11Z zacts: for now a math degree actually
2015-05-09T03:27:18Z zacts: but, also comp sci perhaps
2015-05-09T03:27:26Z zacts: I'm just not impressed with many comp sci curriculum
2015-05-09T03:27:28Z WickedJargon: I see
2015-05-09T03:27:39Z zacts: and I personally have no desire to work for corporations, I would do my own thing
2015-05-09T03:27:51Z zacts: but, I would prefer teaching and academic research, and slacking off
2015-05-09T03:27:56Z zacts: as a career. :-)
2015-05-09T03:28:09Z WickedJargon: Cool
2015-05-09T03:28:22Z zacts: also, I may major in physics / engineering of some sort, or even architecture
2015-05-09T03:28:29Z WickedJargon: Have you heard of Donald Knuth’s famouse series?
2015-05-09T03:28:31Z zacts: I'm still at a point to where I don't have to fully decide yet
2015-05-09T03:28:33Z zacts: ah no
2015-05-09T03:28:45Z zacts: I heard the art of computer programming is great mainly as a reference, but don't know
2015-05-09T03:28:51Z zacts: I do have a book I'm going to read soon
2015-05-09T03:28:58Z zacts: Concrete Mathematics
2015-05-09T03:29:04Z zacts: of which knuth is a co-author
2015-05-09T03:29:23Z zacts: WickedJargon: Concrete Mathematics may be good for after SICP too, if you want to get more heavy into it
2015-05-09T03:29:43Z zacts: WickedJargon: what is your major?
2015-05-09T03:30:13Z WickedJargon: lol, i did a BSc in Life Sciences and a masters in microbiology
2015-05-09T03:30:17Z WickedJargon: completely unrelated
2015-05-09T03:30:18Z zacts: ah cool
2015-05-09T03:30:57Z zacts: WickedJargon: also, I know of another interesting book
2015-05-09T03:31:14Z WickedJargon: sure
2015-05-09T03:31:14Z zacts: http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/concepts-techniques-and-models-computer-programming
2015-05-09T03:31:15Z rudybot: http://eensy.teensy.info/BNwxhkLdPd
2015-05-09T03:31:26Z zacts: ^ it kind of has similar goals to SICP
2015-05-09T03:31:38Z WickedJargon: are you at MIT?
2015-05-09T03:31:42Z zacts: ah no
2015-05-09T03:31:44Z zacts: I'm not at MIT
2015-05-09T03:31:48Z WickedJargon: ah ok.
2015-05-09T03:31:50Z zacts: I'm just doing their ocw
2015-05-09T03:32:07Z zacts: and I'm going to soon take placement tests to test out of a bunch of classes
2015-05-09T03:32:10Z WickedJargon: but MIT press has great books
2015-05-09T03:32:17Z zacts: oh indeed, I love MIT press
2015-05-09T03:32:26Z zacts: I own a few MIT press books
2015-05-09T03:32:43Z zacts: the outer limits of reason is cool, and on computability
2015-05-09T03:32:52Z zacts: I got those because of my maths interests
2015-05-09T03:33:26Z WickedJargon: SICP uses a copyleft license, which is nice
2015-05-09T03:33:33Z WickedJargon: i wonder how often they do that.
2015-05-09T03:33:35Z zacts: it uses creative commons
2015-05-09T03:33:44Z WickedJargon: maybe at the request of the author
2015-05-09T03:34:11Z WickedJargon: have you seen that before with MIT books?
2015-05-09T03:34:13Z zacts: well, I believe that Hal Aebelson co-founded creative commons, but I'm not sure
2015-05-09T03:34:29Z zacts: so it was probably him who initiated creative commonsing SICP
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2015-05-09T03:35:40Z WickedJargon: cool. this is new info
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2015-05-09T03:36:06Z WickedJargon: he also founding director of The Free Software Foundation.
2015-05-09T03:36:11Z WickedJargon: is*
2015-05-09T03:36:17Z zacts: ah I didn't realize that
2015-05-09T03:36:35Z zacts: I just think I saw a link on Hacker News Y-Combinator once about Hal Aebelson and CC
2015-05-09T03:36:45Z zacts: but I can't remember
2015-05-09T03:37:29Z zacts: note: the logic book for MIT OCW Logic I 2009, is really really verbose and dense, you may just want to skip it actually
2015-05-09T03:37:30Z WickedJargon: yes. it is true.
2015-05-09T03:37:41Z zacts: but for sure, don't leave out the how to prove it book
2015-05-09T03:37:44Z zacts: and do it first
2015-05-09T03:37:54Z WickedJargon: he was also part of the reason Open courseware was started
2015-05-09T03:38:00Z zacts: oh neat
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2015-05-09T03:39:01Z WickedJargon: my technique for Scheme so far has been to write out code from memory, and test to see whether i can replicate it the next day.
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2015-05-09T03:42:22Z zacts: what are your goals with scheme and SICP?
2015-05-09T03:42:51Z WickedJargon: just fun.
2015-05-09T03:43:02Z zacts: ah cool
2015-05-09T03:43:05Z WickedJargon: i have a lot of free time these days
2015-05-09T03:43:08Z zacts: that's always a good reason
2015-05-09T03:44:22Z WickedJargon: it started out with a goal to make a mobile app. probably a game. but eventually led me to fundamentals in math and logic.
2015-05-09T03:44:33Z WickedJargon: I’ve read some intro to logic stuff already.
2015-05-09T03:44:39Z zacts: oh neat
2015-05-09T03:45:19Z WickedJargon: what the most interesting part you have found so far?
2015-05-09T03:45:29Z zacts: what are you referring to?
2015-05-09T03:45:40Z WickedJargon: math, logic, programming, anything you’ve studied
2015-05-09T03:45:59Z zacts: ah, hm... good question
2015-05-09T03:46:02Z zacts: let's see...
2015-05-09T03:46:24Z zacts: I guess things I like, are just mathematical puzzles, and making creative things
2015-05-09T03:46:42Z zacts: and I also like freedom of information and social networks
2015-05-09T03:46:53Z zacts: so, I don't know
2015-05-09T03:46:56Z zacts: math and logic
2015-05-09T03:47:07Z zacts: I guess I'm coming to realize how much more of a general thing those are
2015-05-09T03:47:16Z WickedJargon: cool.
2015-05-09T03:47:23Z WickedJargon: have you heard of fuzzy logic/sets
2015-05-09T03:47:29Z zacts: math and logic are like a general philosophy, that you can apply thinking to a wide variety of domain areas
2015-05-09T03:47:45Z WickedJargon: of course.
2015-05-09T03:47:49Z zacts: math isn't just about numbers, it's the logical philosophy and philosophic thinking that comes from math
2015-05-09T03:48:07Z zacts: and how you can reason about things, and even create new ideas / concepts / designs / engineering
2015-05-09T03:48:36Z zacts: so I find both Deductive and Inductive Logic to be the root of almost every area of study
2015-05-09T03:48:44Z zacts: and the philosophy surrounding it
2015-05-09T03:48:51Z WickedJargon: is boolean logic a universal truth or an application?
2015-05-09T03:49:27Z WickedJargon: that’s a stupid question. nevermind
2015-05-09T03:49:47Z zacts: no question is stupid
2015-05-09T03:50:15Z zacts: I think people could argue about boolean logic being a universal truth, sounds kind of platonic to me
2015-05-09T03:50:24Z zacts: like plato's theory of forms, perhaps?
2015-05-09T03:50:41Z zacts: like is boolean logic, a universal structure (a perfect platonic form)
2015-05-09T03:50:58Z zacts: or is boolean logic just a realized implementation of whatever the pure form of logic is
2015-05-09T03:51:10Z zacts: hm... I don't know if that is what you mean, or if that helps? :-)
2015-05-09T03:52:05Z WickedJargon: sure
2015-05-09T03:52:27Z WickedJargon: theory of forms would not help with fuzzy logic
2015-05-09T03:52:49Z zacts: WickedJargon: I'm wondering if inductive logic would be something helpful for fuzzy logic
2015-05-09T03:53:02Z zacts: inductive logic, from my current understanding, deals with probability of truth
2015-05-09T03:53:07Z zacts: rather than, proofs of truth
2015-05-09T03:53:16Z zacts: someone mentioned a book on the subject to me
2015-05-09T03:53:17Z WickedJargon: i see
2015-05-09T03:53:19Z zacts: I need to read it
2015-05-09T03:53:41Z zacts: my understanding of core classical formal logic domains of study are: deductive logic and inductive logic
2015-05-09T03:53:50Z zacts: deductive is proofs, and inductive is probability
2015-05-09T03:53:57Z zacts: and general sane reasoning
2015-05-09T03:54:01Z WickedJargon: well, in evolutionary biology, we can demonstrate the difference between concrete and fuzzy concepts
2015-05-09T03:54:28Z zacts: WickedJargon: I bet that underneath all of those biology concepts lies deductive and inductive logic / philosophy
2015-05-09T03:54:42Z zacts: and then science, (testing hypotheses and peer review of those tests)
2015-05-09T03:55:02Z WickedJargon: if you go back enough generations, your will find non-human ancestors
2015-05-09T03:55:18Z WickedJargon: however, each generation belongs to the same generation that preceeded it
2015-05-09T03:55:31Z WickedJargon: preceded
2015-05-09T03:56:11Z WickedJargon: most people’s concept of a species is rigid. but a species can be a fuzzy concept too.
2015-05-09T03:56:14Z zacts: let me find this book
2015-05-09T03:56:37Z zacts: kleene's mathematics
2015-05-09T03:56:43Z zacts: ^ for the inductive logicish side of things
2015-05-09T03:56:48Z WickedJargon: much like the way tallness and shortness are thought.
2015-05-09T03:56:56Z zacts: I've never even seen the cover of the book, so I don't know if it's good or not
2015-05-09T03:57:20Z zacts: WickedJargon: you may also be interested in http://minikanren.org
2015-05-09T03:57:21Z WickedJargon: that’s usually the best indicator
2015-05-09T03:57:37Z zacts: and the little schemer books
2015-05-09T03:57:51Z WickedJargon: thanks, i bookmarked it
2015-05-09T03:57:54Z zacts: namely: the little schemer, the seasoned schemer, and the reasoned schemer (minikanren)
2015-05-09T03:58:01Z zacts: they are great scheme workout books
2015-05-09T03:58:11Z zacts: kind of like the equivalent of musical scales
2015-05-09T03:58:18Z zacts: but for programming in scheme
2015-05-09T03:58:30Z WickedJargon: oh i see
2015-05-09T03:58:41Z zacts: minikanren is a logic programming DSL originally implemented in scheme
2015-05-09T03:58:46Z zacts: via the reasoned schemer
2015-05-09T03:58:50Z WickedJargon: i started with Simply Scheme, but did not like the fact that i was starting out with macros defined by the author
2015-05-09T03:58:54Z zacts: oh yeah
2015-05-09T03:59:05Z zacts: the little schemer books are pure scheme
2015-05-09T03:59:22Z zacts: they are not textbooks though
2015-05-09T03:59:26Z zacts: they are in a question answer format
2015-05-09T03:59:34Z WickedJargon: interesting
2015-05-09T03:59:37Z zacts: so they ask a question, and you determine the answer
2015-05-09T03:59:39Z WickedJargon: i might prefer that format
2015-05-09T03:59:41Z zacts: it's almost like a REPL
2015-05-09T03:59:56Z zacts: or even a philosophical socratic way of teaching? lol
2015-05-09T04:00:05Z WickedJargon: so the the little schemer is the first to read,
2015-05-09T04:00:12Z zacts: yeah, and then after that
2015-05-09T04:00:17Z WickedJargon: got it
2015-05-09T04:00:22Z zacts: you can choose to read either seasoned or reasoned
2015-05-09T04:00:37Z zacts: seasoned or reasoned can be read in any order, but both after little
2015-05-09T04:01:13Z WickedJargon: oh ok
2015-05-09T04:01:23Z zacts: I'm also interested in scheme for sussman's classical mechanics book
2015-05-09T04:01:24Z zacts: SICM
2015-05-09T04:01:31Z zacts: and his Functional Differential Geometry
2015-05-09T04:01:38Z zacts: that uses scheme to teach those subjects
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2015-05-09T04:01:46Z zacts: for a physics side of things
2015-05-09T04:02:05Z zacts: I <3 Deadmau5
2015-05-09T04:02:23Z zacts: anyways, I'm off for now.. laters, and hope my ideas help
2015-05-09T04:02:50Z WickedJargon: cool. he’s from my city.
2015-05-09T04:02:57Z WickedJargon: take care
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2015-05-09T08:07:14Z foof: lloda: (match '(a b) ((or ('a x) (x 'b)) 'yes)) works, I'll take a look at why quasiquote is confusing it
2015-05-09T08:08:12Z foof: or patterns must have the same vars, I'll also look at making that error message more clear
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2015-05-09T09:28:19Z RantingDude: Should one prefer chibi over guile? Im mostly curious about what performs better.
2015-05-09T09:30:34Z wasamasa: guile I bet
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2015-05-09T09:40:13Z ASau: Chibi, of course.
2015-05-09T09:40:25Z ASau: For embeddable case you want to use free software rather than non-free.
2015-05-09T09:40:41Z ASau: For non-embedded use you want something faster than guile.
2015-05-09T09:40:58Z ASau: You can have free software at the same time, e.g. CHICKEN.
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2015-05-09T10:09:12Z taylanub: ASau: are you saying Chibi performs better than Guile?  what benchmarks do you have?
2015-05-09T10:09:37Z taylanub: RantingDude: Guile is a more mature and feature-rich implementation and I would guess that it performs better
2015-05-09T10:12:37Z taylanub: Both Chibi and Guile are free software.  Chibi is under a BSD-3 license; Guile under LGPL 3+.  There's not much difference unless you want to make proprietary software; if you do then in the case of Guile you'll have to make any modifications to Guile sources themselves free, if you do any.
2015-05-09T10:13:06Z ASau: taylanub: I'm not saying that.
2015-05-09T10:13:23Z ASau: I'm saying different things.
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2015-05-09T10:14:11Z ASau: If you have embedded use for Scheme, Chibi is better due to licence.
2015-05-09T10:14:23Z ASau: If you have non-embedded use for Scheme, both are bad.
2015-05-09T10:14:50Z ASau: And it doesn't depend on whether you want to make commercial software or not.
2015-05-09T10:16:06Z ASau: If you use Chibi Scheme, you gain experience in using Chibi which you can apply in any project where you can or may use Scheme.
2015-05-09T10:16:41Z ASau: If you use Guile, you limit yourself nearly exclusively to FSF projects.
2015-05-09T10:16:53Z ASau: That's all.
2015-05-09T10:17:20Z ASau: Besides, performance is irrelevant here since Guile is known for its quite bad performance.
2015-05-09T10:17:32Z taylanub: If you aren't interested in making proprietary software, then Guile could as well be under GPL and it would still be no problem.  But it is even under LGPL, meaning you *can* make proprietary software using Guile.  I don't see why you would say Guile's license isn't suitable for embedding it, especially in free software.
2015-05-09T10:17:53Z ASau: No, it is still a problem.
2015-05-09T10:18:04Z ASau: Even if it is under LGPL, it is still a problem.
2015-05-09T10:18:25Z taylanub: you're also misinforming about Guile's performance.  do you have benchmarks comparing Guile 2.0 to other Scheme implementations?
2015-05-09T10:18:48Z taylanub: ASau: no, it is not.  you're probably a typical GNU-phobic and I wonder if I should waste time on this.
2015-05-09T10:18:57Z ASau: No, I'm not gnuphobic.
2015-05-09T10:18:57Z taylanub: GPL-phobic*  (or both)
2015-05-09T10:19:01Z ASau: I just know reality.
2015-05-09T10:19:24Z ASau: The reality is that GPL is as non-free as any other commercial licence.
2015-05-09T10:19:37Z taylanub: bullshit
2015-05-09T10:19:38Z ASau: Only worse, since in many cases you cannot buy it.
2015-05-09T10:20:02Z ASau: The policy of FSF makes it even worse.
2015-05-09T10:20:14Z pjb: The reality is that capitalist enterprises just won't contribute to free software.
2015-05-09T10:20:36Z pjb: They see free software only as free work they don't have to pay.
2015-05-09T10:20:55Z ASau: The reality is that only smaller companies do.
2015-05-09T10:21:05Z ASau: Bigger companies don't.
2015-05-09T10:21:08Z taylanub: pjb: ehh, aren't Clang and WebKit and such projects funded pretty strongly by Google and Apple?
2015-05-09T10:21:28Z pjb: The fact that (security) ten+ year old bugs are found in bash, openssl, etc only proves that.
2015-05-09T10:21:53Z taylanub: and then there's Oracle and MySQL  (but yes, forked after all...)
2015-05-09T10:22:05Z pjb: taylanub: Only because they pay less to Clang authors, than they would have to pay them salaries and benefits.
2015-05-09T10:22:32Z ASau: The story of mysql is yet another case.
2015-05-09T10:22:58Z ASau: If Oracle wishes to follow Mattel, it will cause a great success of GNU licences. :)
2015-05-09T10:27:54Z kephra: ASau, thats why dual license is part of my business model for more then 25 years: GPL + my own license
2015-05-09T10:28:39Z kephra: people like you pay extra money (every year), that they have a license of a software I published under GPL in the 90s ;-)
2015-05-09T10:29:04Z kephra: just to have an email of mine, and a so called license and maintenance contract
2015-05-09T10:29:06Z taylanub: hmm, not sure if evil or ingenius
2015-05-09T10:29:15Z kephra: GPL is great -> its semi passive income!
2015-05-09T10:29:49Z taylanub: on one hand you allow people to make proprietary software off of your work, on the other hand you make money from software you otherwise develop under the GPL by leveraging companies' GPL-phobia
2015-05-09T10:30:44Z pjb: kephra: there's an automatic implicit dual licensing for any GPL software: a corporation can always contact the copyright owner, and ask for a quote for a full privative license.
2015-05-09T10:32:31Z kephra: pjb, exactly - thats granted by Berner Copyright convention: The author holds the copyright, and can distribute licenses on own discretion. GPL does not limit me - GPL is not an exclusive licsens.
2015-05-09T10:33:31Z pjb: It's also very telling that you never get such quote requests: they prefer to use MIT/BSD for $0, or to pay cheap developers to re-implement it.
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2015-05-09T10:34:32Z kephra: reimplementing is sometimes an option - sometimes even a necessary one
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2015-05-09T10:34:55Z ASau: pjb: this is another reason why GPL sucks for an individual.
2015-05-09T10:35:04Z pjb: ASau: no, on the contrary.
2015-05-09T10:35:19Z pjb: The individual author should only use GPL (AGPL3 even).
2015-05-09T10:35:35Z ASau: You have to write something really useful in order to sell it.
2015-05-09T10:35:48Z pjb: And the individual free software author finds no downside of using GPL software.
2015-05-09T10:35:56Z pjb: Only capitalist corporations find it a problem.
2015-05-09T10:36:02Z pjb: because they are greedy.
2015-05-09T10:36:08Z taylanub: ASau: please stop spreading your GPL-phobia, it's already pandemic
2015-05-09T10:36:42Z ASau: taylanub: stop spreading your bullshit about possibility of writing commercial software around GPL. :)
2015-05-09T10:37:07Z ASau: pjb: For a corporation it is a lot easier to hire a team to reimplement GPL software under their terms.
2015-05-09T10:37:20Z ASau: I have seen it from inside. :)
2015-05-09T10:37:35Z ASau: That's why individual developer is better with free software than with GPL.
2015-05-09T10:37:40Z kephra: e.g. we use several Weka algorithms, rewritten in C, embedded in Lua - the legal situation (in Germany) is: the math is free by law, reading the source to write a different source is not cut'n'paste ( e.g. using own names ) - so the new source is under a new license
2015-05-09T10:38:35Z ASau: kephra: that's exactly why they won't buy anything from you. :)
2015-05-09T10:39:06Z pjb: And again, that demonstrate an increadible level of sociopathy and greediness.
2015-05-09T10:39:26Z ASau: Sure.
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2015-05-09T10:39:38Z taylanub: ASau: there is absolutely no problem writing GPL software for money, i.e. commercial GPL software.  neither is there any fundamental problem with writing commercial proprietary software using LGPL libraries; only the burden to contribute back any *potential* changes to the LGPL components themselves, and the burden to provide instructions on how to link your proprietary components with a user's
2015-05-09T10:39:38Z taylanub: own versions of the LGPL components.
2015-05-09T10:39:47Z ASau: The only way to stop all that is to declare copyright void concept.
2015-05-09T10:39:54Z kephra: ASau, *oh* our machine learning software+hardware is not free - e.g. optimizing maintenance of siemens power plant turbines, or quality control of injection molding machines. Thats always some black box we sell.
2015-05-09T10:40:03Z ASau: taylanub: who exactly does that?
2015-05-09T10:40:13Z pjb: ASau: that wouldn't prevent corporations to not contribute their sources.
2015-05-09T10:40:19Z ASau: taylanub: any smaller company than Google?
2015-05-09T10:40:36Z taylanub: ASau: who knows and who cares, there is no problem with doing it.
2015-05-09T10:40:50Z ASau: taylanub: I know and I care. There's fundamental problem with it.
2015-05-09T10:41:05Z ASau: The reality is such that only big corporations do,
2015-05-09T10:41:12Z pjb: No, the only way to stop all that it for the law to impose any commercialised software or firmware to be provided with the sources, and any imported software or firmware to be audited (for security, privacy, legality and other bugs).
2015-05-09T10:41:24Z ASau: and they do it in such a way as to get cheap labour.
2015-05-09T10:41:37Z kephra: ASau, GPL does not enforces anyone to contribute back to the original author
2015-05-09T10:42:07Z kephra: so as long as you use a GPLed software inhouse, nobody can tell you to publish your changes
2015-05-09T10:42:08Z ASau: kephra: First, FSF does. :)
2015-05-09T10:42:18Z taylanub: ASau: care to point me out the problem with distributing a piece of software, that I've written and continue to maintain for a customer who's paying me, under the GPL?
2015-05-09T10:42:54Z taylanub: ASau: care to point me out the problem with writing proprietary software using LGPL libraries?  (not that I would encourage anyone to do this.)
2015-05-09T10:43:19Z kephra: ASau, GPL has some legal traps for big corps, that GS did not understand
2015-05-09T10:43:34Z ASau: taylanub: nearly any software development explicitly forbids reusing software under GPL or LGPL.
2015-05-09T10:43:45Z ASau: taylanub: that's the problem.
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2015-05-09T10:44:20Z pjb: ASau: software development is not a contract or a law, it cannot forbid anythign.
2015-05-09T10:44:23Z ASau: Thus, any time you invest into learning how to do something with GPLed software where comparable or enve better free alternatives exist, is wasted.
2015-05-09T10:44:50Z ASau: pjb: company that does software development.
2015-05-09T10:44:50Z taylanub: ASau: what are you talking about?  what prevents me from developing software for money upon a customer's request, then releasing it under the GPL?
2015-05-09T10:45:00Z pjb: ASau: that's their problem.
2015-05-09T10:45:16Z ASau: taylanub: try getting contract under those terms. :)
2015-05-09T10:45:26Z kephra: taylanub, a contract with your customer can prevent you - if the amount of money is high enough
2015-05-09T10:45:26Z ASau: taylanub: how many times did you succede?
2015-05-09T10:45:34Z pjb: ASau: I currently have such a contract.
2015-05-09T10:45:39Z pjb: This is not a problem.
2015-05-09T10:45:53Z ASau: taylanub: compare that to the number of cases where you get contract for exclusive licence.
2015-05-09T10:46:02Z pjb: On the contrary, customers understand very well the interest for them of the GPL, compared to MIT/BSD, to prevent competitors to take advantage.
2015-05-09T10:46:17Z taylanub: ASau: the company I work at continuously makes software for customers where they make absolutely no use of the code themselves, we basically own the software we write for them.  we could as well release it under the GPL.
2015-05-09T10:46:52Z ASau: taylanub: you problably could, yet did you?
2015-05-09T10:47:18Z kephra: pjb, e.g. I sold a search engine to a state owned company, who works under contract of an government agency - In fact I wrote this software 3 times.
2015-05-09T10:47:19Z taylanub: ASau: I'm a software developer only at this company, I don't manage contracts.
2015-05-09T10:47:31Z taylanub: ASau: but as you can see above, some people do this.  so stop misinforming people.
2015-05-09T10:47:48Z ASau: taylanub: you can talk to your sales or lawyer. :)
2015-05-09T10:48:07Z ASau: taylanub: "some" is not even a significant part, let alone majority.
2015-05-09T10:48:10Z kephra: pjb, first we had a talk - I read between the lines what they wanted - but they wanted an NDA before - I was pissed off - closed the talk - and published some code on CPAN 3 days later with a mail of good luck ;-)
2015-05-09T10:48:48Z ASau: pjb: state-owned sector is quite funky market segment.
2015-05-09T10:48:53Z kephra: a few years later we came in contact again - they wasted a lot of money with a big team, without any vision ;-(
2015-05-09T10:49:18Z taylanub: ASau: I don't need a lawyer for this.  even I can understand that there's absolutely no problem developing GPL software for a paying customer.
2015-05-09T10:49:23Z ASau: pjb: once they decide that they can go without you, you'll lose your contract. :)
2015-05-09T10:49:37Z ASau: taylanub: How many customers do that?
2015-05-09T10:49:57Z kephra: we agreed, that we do not talk about NDAs again (so I'm allowed to talk about it ;-) but the software I wrote and supervised was sold under an exclusive license
2015-05-09T10:50:48Z kephra: the 2nd version was in Java - so I wrote a 3rd version in PHP
2015-05-09T10:51:04Z ASau: kephra: see? that's how your customers want. :)
2015-05-09T10:51:09Z ASau: Exclusive licence.
2015-05-09T10:51:30Z ASau: In many cases under NDA even. :)
2015-05-09T10:53:42Z kephra: i will never sign an NDA - ideas have a !NEGATIVE! value for me
2015-05-09T10:53:59Z ASau: Never say "never".
2015-05-09T10:54:06Z kephra: ... well never say never: pay me a million upfront cash, and I consider signing an NDA ;-)
2015-05-09T10:54:26Z kephra: but I want to see the cash on my car truck
2015-05-09T10:55:01Z ASau: You know the story of, IIRC, Bernard Shaw who had a chance to say that any woman can be bought, don't you? ;)
2015-05-09T10:56:08Z ASau: 500 EUR is quite large note, so a million may look not what you think of it. :)
2015-05-09T10:56:14Z kephra: I dont know if any - there might be cases, where more money will even increase the tendency to say "NO"
2015-05-09T10:56:18Z taylanub: so our GPL-phobic is also into human trafficking.  great.
2015-05-09T10:56:50Z ASau: taylanub: seems you don't know it. :)
2015-05-09T10:57:10Z ASau: His queen asked him if this was true that he said that.
2015-05-09T10:57:32Z ASau: When he confirmed, she asked him what would be her price. :)
2015-05-09T10:57:42Z ASau: It ended like
2015-05-09T10:57:48Z ASau: "2000"
2015-05-09T10:57:49Z ASau: "Why so few?"
2015-05-09T10:57:57Z ASau: "See? You're bargaining."
2015-05-09T10:58:03Z kephra: ASau, a million is about 20kg in cash - assuming €50 notes
2015-05-09T10:58:22Z pjb: It's only 25.0 in gold.
2015-05-09T10:58:34Z pjb: I'll take the gold, thanks.
2015-05-09T10:58:37Z ASau: kephra: they may decide to pay you in 5 EUR notes. :)
2015-05-09T10:58:55Z taylanub: ASau: I'm not amused
2015-05-09T11:00:40Z ASau: taylanub: whatever.
2015-05-09T11:01:02Z ASau: You assume that human resources are scarce which is not the fact.
2015-05-09T11:01:37Z kephra: HR, is'nt that the department to scare of unemployed, ASau ?
2015-05-09T11:03:28Z taylanub: I don't know how that's relevant.  if our company gets choosen to write crappy non-modular software which --while fulfilling their needs-- our customers are not able to make much use of even when they receive the source code, then our company could as well be choosen by them to write pieces of GPL software that will fulfill their needs.
2015-05-09T11:04:45Z taylanub: in fact it would put "honor" of code quality into the game (since the code is public), thus ensuring that the customer will be able to pay other companies to continue working on the GPL software, if they find us unsatisfactory.  at worst the company is damaging itself, not the customer.
2015-05-09T11:06:00Z kephra: most customers feel well, if I offer them GPL
2015-05-09T11:06:45Z ASau: taylanub: too many "if"s.
2015-05-09T11:06:49Z ASau: This is how it works in reality:
2015-05-09T11:06:52Z kephra: there had been exactly one case - where I had to sell exclusive
2015-05-09T11:07:07Z ASau: you get a contract where you are asked for exclusive licence.
2015-05-09T11:07:09Z kephra: and this was a government intelligence agency
2015-05-09T11:07:28Z taylanub: ASau: apparently other people's reality is different from yours
2015-05-09T11:07:33Z ASau: If not exclusive, then your sales manage that.
2015-05-09T11:07:52Z ASau: In both case you are essentially forbidden to use GPL.
2015-05-09T11:07:56Z kephra: "you sales" creates a different problem
2015-05-09T11:08:40Z ASau: If/when your customer receives the code, you may still have some suport contract.
2015-05-09T11:08:42Z kephra: lots of IT companies are bodyshops - so called consulting companies
2015-05-09T11:08:53Z ASau: But this contract may be terminated at any time,
2015-05-09T11:09:09Z ASau: and some other, cheaper company gets support contract.
2015-05-09T11:10:13Z kephra: ASau, there had been even customers who wondered why I was so gracious to give them the code under GPL - I told them: put it in the bank safe, in case I die - none of them betrayed me
2015-05-09T11:11:02Z ASau: Sounds like building web sites...
2015-05-09T11:12:56Z ASau: Well... I think I see where you're coming from.
2015-05-09T11:13:03Z kephra: an injection molding machine is not a website
2015-05-09T11:13:16Z ASau: Yes, throw-away code can come under any licence.
2015-05-09T11:14:13Z taylanub: ASau: in my experience, nothing good ever comes out of asking for the proprietary source code you payed for and trying to make use of it yourself, because the company developing it (us) develops it with horrible practices such that none other than their own developers can make sense of the codebase.  in fact we frequently use private libraries in the codebase which the customer doesn't even have
2015-05-09T11:14:13Z taylanub: access to.
2015-05-09T11:15:04Z taylanub: and we're a halfway prestigious company too, yet use these utterly anti-social "tactics" against our customers, albeit unintentionally
2015-05-09T11:15:42Z taylanub: no matter what the contract says, the source code is not usable by anyone but us.  we practically own the software we sell them despite what the contract says.  that is what you get for paying a company to write proprietary software for you.
2015-05-09T11:16:04Z ASau: taylanub: in my experience, one of major points in contract is getting full source code when contractor gets out of business.
2015-05-09T11:16:37Z kephra: taylanub, the problem here could be chinese whispers - aka silent post - you hired a bodyshop: you talk to "yes" men, and they will happy implement any bullshit you ask for - they are used to implement bullshit code most of the time - they can no longer produce anything else
2015-05-09T11:16:37Z ASau: taylanub: you only think that the code is not usable by anyone else.
2015-05-09T11:16:46Z taylanub: ASau: so can we agree that your experience is your experience only, and not universal truth?  will you stop misinforming people with your limited experience?
2015-05-09T11:17:00Z ASau: taylanub: I worked in several companies that received such code and made it work. :)
2015-05-09T11:17:30Z ASau: taylanub: sure, my experience differs from yours.
2015-05-09T11:17:40Z ASau: You talk about idealistic picture.
2015-05-09T11:17:46Z ASau: I talk about what the reality is.
2015-05-09T11:18:15Z ASau: Throw-away code may come under any licence, but there's little point in considering it.
2015-05-09T11:18:21Z ASau: Be serious.
2015-05-09T11:18:34Z kephra: ASau, perhaps the difference is: you are employed (or hope to become), while I'm running my own businesses for more then 30 years
2015-05-09T11:18:39Z taylanub: ASau: you reimplemented functions called from the code which didn't exist and didn't have any specification on what they should do either?  it would probably be cheaper to write that software from scratch.
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2015-05-09T11:19:17Z kephra: there is a very big difference in working on own projects, to working in a bodyshop
2015-05-09T11:19:34Z ASau: If you don't give accompanying specification to your customer, he will sue you for breaking terms of contract. :)
2015-05-09T11:19:47Z taylanub: ASau: not in our case
2015-05-09T11:20:03Z kephra: the "yes" men in the bodyshop are forced to say "yes" to everything, because they need to keep their coders busy working - else the complete consulting company goes bankrupt
2015-05-09T11:20:14Z kephra: so they take shitty jobs, without knowing
2015-05-09T11:20:26Z ASau: kephra: it isn't that much different.
2015-05-09T11:20:41Z kephra: but working on your own the most important thing is to decline at least 99% of possible projects!
2015-05-09T11:20:50Z ASau: If you run your business to write throw-away code like web sites,
2015-05-09T11:20:54Z ASau: it is one thing,
2015-05-09T11:21:06Z ASau: if you run your business to write code you're going to sell,
2015-05-09T11:21:09Z ASau: it's totally different.
2015-05-09T11:21:16Z kephra: I decline politely, if you ask me to build your website
2015-05-09T11:21:54Z taylanub: ASau: there is practically no difference, in my experience, as explained above.  theoretically our customers buy the code; in practice they pay us to get the software running on our own terms while they won't be able to use it without us.
2015-05-09T11:21:56Z ASau: Web sites are not the only segment for throw-away code.
2015-05-09T11:21:59Z kephra: I'll pick only on projects where I first have an edge in technology, and 2nd low friction with the customer
2015-05-09T11:22:33Z kephra: I decline 90% of the projects within first two weeks - when I realize that friction is to high - and that I can not get into flow with the customer
2015-05-09T11:22:46Z taylanub: ASau: so once again, can we please agree that your experience is not universal truth, and by pretending so you're misinforming people?
2015-05-09T11:23:09Z ASau: taylanub: yes, my experience is about serious projects, not about throw-away code. :)
2015-05-09T11:23:20Z kephra: I !ONLY! pick those projects that are good, and lucrative - thats the way to make good work, without the need to worry about money
2015-05-09T11:23:31Z ASau: (And it is about writing the software rather than running it.)
2015-05-09T11:24:23Z kephra: ASau, would you call a software that is used by more then 80 countries in customs office as throw away code?
2015-05-09T11:24:43Z kephra: a software that runs EVERY container in and out of china?
2015-05-09T11:25:02Z ASau: Do you really think that there's no place for throw-away code there?
2015-05-09T11:25:09Z taylanub: ASau: you are awfully arrogant, and running to a no-true-scotsman argument
2015-05-09T11:25:31Z taylanub: "oh but your company doesn't make REAL software"
2015-05-09T11:25:32Z kephra: nope - but all customs offices use UN/EDIFACT - and 80 nations use XML::Edifact
2015-05-09T11:25:35Z pjb: "throw away code" is commands thrown at the shell.
2015-05-09T11:26:09Z kephra: XML::Edifact is as legacy code as possible - last bug report 2003 - this is pretty dead code!
2015-05-09T11:26:29Z kephra: nobody touches it - its horrible Perl
2015-05-09T11:26:42Z pjb: perl = legacy.
2015-05-09T11:26:42Z kephra: *blush*
2015-05-09T11:26:57Z ASau: Pf.
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2015-05-09T11:31:47Z kephra: taylanub, well - I guess we live in different world - e.g. there are customers with good reasons who want exclusive contracts: government, intelligence, military industrial complex, ... and some others who think they can do they same - but nobody forces me to work for them
2015-05-09T11:32:19Z kephra: thats different, if one is employed
2015-05-09T11:34:33Z taylanub: of course I'm not saying there won't be customers who want the code privately for themselves, just that many if not most will not care, so you can make them pay you to write the code under the GPL
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2015-05-09T11:35:07Z ASau: This works only if you sell product to single customer or few of them.
2015-05-09T11:35:18Z kephra: exactly - there are several kind of customers
2015-05-09T11:36:11Z ASau: So, anything like thousands of customers becomes impossible. :)
2015-05-09T11:36:42Z taylanub: ASau: yes yes, we got it: your company's strategy is the only one there is, any others are silly and non-serious and won't work, and thus your personal experience is universal truth
2015-05-09T11:37:11Z taylanub: and no amount of evidence to the contrary can convince you otherwise
2015-05-09T11:37:29Z ASau wonders if his old NDA has expired...
2015-05-09T11:38:05Z ASau: I'd like to know how you're going to handle cases like that.
2015-05-09T11:40:29Z taylanub: ASau: cases like what?
2015-05-09T11:50:32Z ASau: For instance, when one of your customers tries to extract source code from you (including "extra-legal" means) to give it to another software development company and terminate your contract. :)
2015-05-09T11:51:06Z ASau: Yeah, perhaps if you have little commitment or throw-away code, it is fine. :)
2015-05-09T11:56:25Z taylanub: ASau: I don't understand, how does that make sense when all the code is under the GPL in first place?
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2015-05-09T12:06:46Z taylanub: I wonder if you even understand the basic idea here, though it's fairly simple: customer needs software X, you offer them a contract where you get paid to write the code, fine-print saying that it will be under the GPL.  if the customer inquires you about that, you can choose between bullshitting them on how much the GPL will benefit them, and giving them an honest answer which still doesn't
2015-05-09T12:06:46Z taylanub: entail any harm to them.
2015-05-09T12:08:43Z taylanub: for any one customer of yours, it doesn't matter whether the code is public and others can use it without becoming customers of yours, or whether they have to pay you to also use it (like in your claimed thousand customers); the only "harm" to be done is to yourself because you refuse to use the anti-social tactic of keeping source code proprietary
2015-05-09T12:10:12Z taylanub: exceptions would be customers who, for one reason or another, require a piece of code to remain private to them.  I don't know of this class of customer being typical or the majority.
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2015-05-09T12:11:22Z taylanub: and then this discussion initially started out from the *L*GPL and not the GPL, so your claims are even more frivolous.
2015-05-09T12:12:56Z taylanub: to sum up, refusing to use LGPL Scheme implementations is stupid *even* if you want to write proprietary software, which most Scheme users don't.
2015-05-09T12:13:54Z taylanub: ASau: also please tell me if you have benchmarks of Guile 2.0 vs. other Scheme implementations
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2015-05-09T12:20:33Z kephra is pretty sure, that my Scheme is one of the slowest
2015-05-09T12:21:18Z foof: lloda: it was a bug, (match '(a b) ((or `(a ,x) `(,x b)) 'ok) (_ #f)) now works
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2015-05-09T12:23:05Z taylanub: foof: you're one of the quickest bug-fixers I know :P
2015-05-09T12:23:37Z foof: that was slow, I had to feed my kid :/
2015-05-09T12:27:15Z ASau: taylanub: the basic idea is this:
2015-05-09T12:27:23Z zacts: morning
2015-05-09T12:27:44Z ASau: taylanub: customer needs software, "you offer them a contract where you get paid to write the code, fine-print saying that it will be under the GPL"
2015-05-09T12:27:59Z ASau: taylanub: customer says, "Alright. Goodbye."
2015-05-09T12:28:07Z ASau: taylanub: you don't receive anything. :)
2015-05-09T12:28:25Z ASau: taylanub: you competitors do.
2015-05-09T12:28:51Z ASau: taylanub: alternative.
2015-05-09T12:29:03Z ASau: taylanub: customer says, "Alright. Fine."
2015-05-09T12:29:39Z ASau: taylanub: you complete 1/2 or more of the work with 1/4 paid in advance,
2015-05-09T12:29:51Z ASau: taylanub: then you give your program to your customer.
2015-05-09T12:29:57Z ASau: taylanub: with the source, since it is GPL. :)
2015-05-09T12:30:19Z ASau: taylanub: customer says, "Sorry. It doesn't work. Goodbye, you may keep the change."
2015-05-09T12:31:19Z ASau: taylanub: then you find that your competitor receives the source and completes the software for lower rate and with less effort because you have done all the heavy lifting. :)
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2015-05-09T12:34:57Z ASau: Add variations of those two and you get complete picture. :)
2015-05-09T12:35:41Z ASau: In the end, you have done a lot of uncompensated work and gained a lot of negative experience.
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2015-05-09T12:53:14Z ASau: taylanub: there exist other funny twists when your law has some provisions against unfair acts like fine-print. :)
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2015-05-09T17:34:37Z taylanub: ASau`: if the customer won't own the source code, then it makes no difference to them whether you sell it to other customers, or publicize it under a copyleft license.  if the customer will own the source code, then you're contradicting yourself because the competitor story you're telling will apply just as well with the sole exception that if it were GPL'd they would have to continue developing
2015-05-09T17:34:37Z taylanub: it under the GPL whereas otherwise it will *entirely* belong to them so you lose even more.
2015-05-09T17:35:03Z taylanub: ASau`: so you're not making sense one way or another.  take your illogical GPL-phobia elsewhere.
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2015-05-09T17:36:44Z taylanub: I'll stop this now because it's not going anywhere.  I guess you'll keep misinforming people and I'll have to call out your bullshit every time I see it in this channel (I think this was the second instance; I remember having a lengthy unproductive debate over this with someone before)
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2015-05-09T18:05:18Z tsumetai: You're not even trying to understand him. "GPL-phobia". :/
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2015-05-09T18:27:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: looks like I missed some conversation
2015-05-09T18:28:00Z taylanub: yeah there was a 4 hour-gap because I was away...
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2015-05-09T18:28:41Z taylanub: tsumetai: I would understand if the things being claimed would make sense, in terms of basic logic :P
2015-05-09T18:32:14Z taylanub: tsumetai: if you'd seen how this started out, it's fairly obvious that ASau holds a dogmatic belief against the GPL.  I doubt they ever actually tried to sell a customer the labor of producing source code that will be licensed under the GPL.
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2015-05-09T18:32:45Z bipt: to debunk just one of ASau's totally false claims from above: the FSF explicitly says that modified GPL software may be used in-house without being published https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#InternalDistribution
2015-05-09T18:33:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: It is unfortunate that the modern business model is to trap the customer with vendor lock in and proprietary systems.
2015-05-09T18:33:28Z taylanub: that too, indeed; I tend to forget it myself and wrongly assume that "licensed under the GPL" implies it will be released to the public :)
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2015-05-09T18:36:55Z C-Keen: I don't know. If the in house code is gpl, then why shouldn't an employer take it and publish it instead? Unless that's prohibited by the work contract I think in terms of the GPL would be perfectly fine...
2015-05-09T18:37:52Z C-Keen: I guess the most common use case is some modification to existing GPL software that does not get published
2015-05-09T18:38:08Z C-Keen: in contrast to in house development under GPL that does not get published
2015-05-09T18:39:01Z bipt: i think they *should* publish it, they're just not required to, which is what ASau said
2015-05-09T18:39:17Z bipt: <kephra> so as long as you use a GPLed software inhouse, nobody can tell you to publish your changes <ASau>  kephra: First, FSF does. :)
2015-05-09T18:43:32Z ASau: taylanub: you can spread your bullshit whatever way you like.
2015-05-09T18:43:35Z ASau: That doesn't change things.
2015-05-09T18:44:01Z ASau: Things are that with GPL stuff you're more likely to get trapped into situations where you write code for free with no way to reuse it.
2015-05-09T18:44:39Z ASau: This applies to serious, not a throw-away code.
2015-05-09T18:44:54Z ASau: Throw-away code is throw-away. It can come with any licence.
2015-05-09T18:45:03Z bipt: and it's not true that the GPL is hostile to commercial use. it's bad for a few business models, but there are many successful companies that only exist because of free software
2015-05-09T18:45:19Z ASau: I've never said it is.
2015-05-09T18:45:29Z ASau: The thing is that GPL favours bigger companies.
2015-05-09T18:46:22Z ASau: Those who can waste programmers' time because they have deep pockets and earn by selling material products, services or so.
2015-05-09T18:47:17Z bipt: in my experience it's good for smaller companies, because it prevents big companies from profiting off of proprietary forks of their programs
2015-05-09T18:47:41Z ASau: I don't understand where you have picked this experience up.
2015-05-09T18:47:56Z ASau: It is the opposite.
2015-05-09T18:48:33Z ASau: If you develop GPLed software, then bigger company will take it, fork it and make changes so as to push your GPL software away.
2015-05-09T18:49:40Z bipt: do you have any examples of that happening?
2015-05-09T18:51:40Z ASau is still unsure if that NDA has expired.
2015-05-09T18:51:43Z bipt: the closest example i can think of is the xemacs changes that couldn't be integrated into gnu emacs due to the lack of copyright assignments, but gnu emacs was more successful in the end
2015-05-09T18:52:54Z ASau: This is another indication of moronic policies of FSF.
2015-05-09T18:53:09Z ASau: Which is organisation pushing all this GPL agenda.
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2015-05-09T18:53:56Z ASau: You can see one of the consequences of this in famous GPL revocation case. :)
2015-05-09T18:54:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: Is the FSF well staffed? They seem to move very slowly...
2015-05-09T18:54:59Z ASau: It is unclear if they are, but the way RMS behaves is really idiotic.
2015-05-09T18:55:48Z ASau: E.g. he requests support for Clang not to be added to Emacs just because Clang is free software and doesn't follow his ideas.
2015-05-09T18:56:10Z contrapunctus: * non-copyleft free software
2015-05-09T18:56:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: I recall some heated discussions on #emacs yes...
2015-05-09T18:56:47Z contrapunctus: (I dislike copyleft, but let's at least be accurate.)
2015-05-09T18:56:59Z bipt: Pixel_Outlaw, i think they're pretty small. there may be a better source but you can get some idea from their tax filings https://www.fsf.org/about/financial
2015-05-09T18:57:33Z bipt: 1.2 million USD revenue and 8.6k paid in salaries in 2013
2015-05-09T18:57:53Z contrapunctus: wut
2015-05-09T18:58:33Z bipt: err, 866k in salaries :)
2015-05-09T18:58:46Z contrapunctus: ah.
2015-05-09T18:59:04Z contrapunctus: But, I never knew FSF made that much.
2015-05-09T18:59:08Z contrapunctus: *the FSF
2015-05-09T18:59:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm an official developer with a package that they've accepted but never given me access to their repo for them. -_-;
2015-05-09T18:59:25Z ASau: Is it annual or monthly salary rate?
2015-05-09T18:59:58Z bipt: for october 2012 through september 2013
2015-05-09T19:00:08Z bipt: (looking at http://static.fsf.org/nosvn/Form990_FY2013.pdf )
2015-05-09T19:01:25Z ASau: Just to remind you why this has started,
2015-05-09T19:01:38Z zacts: hello
2015-05-09T19:01:40Z ASau: the original question was if one should choose Chibi or Guile.
2015-05-09T19:02:00Z zacts: I got chibi scheme working on minix3 once
2015-05-09T19:02:09Z zacts: it was so fun
2015-05-09T19:02:16Z zacts: I should try this out with minix3 on my beaglebone black
2015-05-09T19:02:23Z ASau: zacts: will we see the package, BTW? ;)
2015-05-09T19:02:37Z ASau: The answer is definitely Chibi just because it comes under BSD terms
2015-05-09T19:02:53Z zacts: heh heh, ASau I am also extremely lazy
2015-05-09T19:02:54Z ASau: and the latter leaves your options of using it for compensated work.
2015-05-09T19:03:13Z zacts: If I get it working on Minix3 on the BBB, I'll make an agreement with myself to add a patch to pkgsrc for it
2015-05-09T19:03:16Z contrapunctus: ASau: y'know, that's not the /only/ consideration for /everyone/ in choosing an implementation
2015-05-09T19:03:34Z bipt: guile is LGPLv3, so it is usable even in proprietary programs
2015-05-09T19:03:47Z ASau: bipt: that's bullshit.
2015-05-09T19:03:55Z zacts: yeah, I didn't think guile was LGPL
2015-05-09T19:03:57Z ASau: And I have pointed you to that already.
2015-05-09T19:04:24Z contrapunctus: ASau: and there is more than one way to make money off code (and one is only available through the GPL! Allow code for use in proprietary programs for money.)
2015-05-09T19:04:25Z ASau: contrapunctus: if the project you're working on uses Java already, you have no choice.
2015-05-09T19:04:45Z zacts: eh java
2015-05-09T19:04:59Z contrapunctus: So it's not really nice to imply that X is the only way to make money :)
2015-05-09T19:05:22Z ASau: Well, you can construct the choice between Kiwi and JScheme, but this can hardly be called a choice. :)
2015-05-09T19:05:24Z zacts: I'm hoping to understand the difference between static and dynamic typing
2015-05-09T19:05:45Z zacts: I can't remember, but if I recall correctly I think Gerald J Sussman isn't fond of static typing
2015-05-09T19:06:00Z ASau: zacts: that's easy.
2015-05-09T19:06:04Z ASau: "Static" means ahead of time.
2015-05-09T19:06:05Z bipt: ASau, what exactly is bullshit? why do you believe you can't link LGPL code with proprietary programs?
2015-05-09T19:06:20Z ASau: bipt: try doing it in any serious project.
2015-05-09T19:06:25Z ASau: Not in throw-away code.
2015-05-09T19:06:37Z zacts: ASau: oh so static is kind of like determined before the program is run?
2015-05-09T19:06:44Z zacts: like a constant type?
2015-05-09T19:06:49Z ASau: You'll suddenly discover that your friends will hold your hand before you even try it.
2015-05-09T19:06:50Z zacts: not a constant
2015-05-09T19:06:56Z zacts: but the typeness is determind beforehand
2015-05-09T19:07:01Z contrapunctus: bipt: don't spoil a good story with facts :D
2015-05-09T19:07:03Z ASau: zacts: yes, before the program is run.
2015-05-09T19:07:23Z zacts: while the typeness of dynamic typing can mutate while the program is running?
2015-05-09T19:07:39Z zacts: so is haskell statically typed, while scheme is dynamically typed?
2015-05-09T19:07:45Z ASau: Yes.
2015-05-09T19:07:48Z zacts: ok, cool
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2015-05-09T19:08:57Z zacts: I wonder if there are any extensions to scheme or racket, that allow for static typing
2015-05-09T19:09:21Z vraid: zacts: you mean #lang typed/racket ?
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2015-05-09T19:09:33Z zacts: ah, yeah that sounds totally familiar actually
2015-05-09T19:09:34Z ASau: Typed Racket.
2015-05-09T19:09:37Z zacts: ah cool
2015-05-09T19:09:38Z zacts: ok
2015-05-09T19:10:12Z contrapunctus: Are there any statically typed Schemes? (Schemes, not Rackets :\ )
2015-05-09T19:10:46Z ASau: I've been told that there is some support in CHICKEN.
2015-05-09T19:11:00Z ASau: They're trying to do something like what SBCL does.
2015-05-09T19:11:17Z bipt: contrapunctus, prescheme (used in scheme48 for low-level stuff) is statically-typed
2015-05-09T19:11:36Z contrapunctus: bipt: ah, cool. Scheme48 is still alive, then?
2015-05-09T19:12:28Z bipt: it seems to still be alive :) looks like there was a release last year
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2015-05-09T19:12:32Z zacts: last I checked scsh was still getting maintenance on github
2015-05-09T19:12:42Z zacts: I would really like to try it out when I get the time
2015-05-09T19:12:49Z zacts: perhaps I could submit patches to it too
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2015-05-09T19:24:20Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hmmm appears I've got a Google interview offer. I'll probably fail out hard for not really being too interested in web development...
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2015-05-09T19:32:49Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: google is a big corproration, so expect it to be just another one.
2015-05-09T19:33:03Z ASau: This is impression of nearly everyone I know.
2015-05-09T19:33:41Z Pixel_Outlaw: Hmm? Another one? Of what do you mean?
2015-05-09T19:33:51Z ASau: You can go into Cisco or Oracle as well.
2015-05-09T19:34:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd really like to make computer applications if I had my choice.
2015-05-09T19:34:50Z ASau: Cisco and Oracle develop software.
2015-05-09T19:35:40Z ASau: Anyway, Google is not a startup company.
2015-05-09T19:35:42Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think companies that don't make software will mostly just have web programming and database stuff. To support their users and customers need for data input and transactions.
2015-05-09T19:35:51Z ASau: It is juts another big coproration now.
2015-05-09T19:36:07Z ASau: That depends.
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2015-05-09T19:36:42Z ASau: E.g. news agencies have mobile application departments nowadays.
2015-05-09T19:37:02Z ASau: And video/audio streaming departments too.
2015-05-09T19:40:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: It would be cool to hammer out something that would be around for 5-10 years and ran on powerful computers.
2015-05-09T19:40:32Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe CAD software or some imaging stuff...
2015-05-09T19:41:06Z Pixel_Outlaw: The phone/tablet stuff is too casual and gone tomorrow for me.
2015-05-09T19:42:05Z ASau: If you want something like that Google is definitely not for you.
2015-05-09T19:42:52Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yeah, guess I'll just go through the motions and let them see if they have anything I'd like.
2015-05-09T19:42:54Z ASau: You want some embedded, logistics, DBMS or something of the kind.
2015-05-09T19:43:38Z ASau: Perhaps you really want Cisco, Oracle or SAP. :)
2015-05-09T19:44:03Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm not lazy at all but I really hate sinking time into things that will be gone in a year. I'd rather learn a language and make low level programs that will fill needs for many years to come while being updated and worked on.
2015-05-09T19:47:17Z ASau: Low level => embedded.
2015-05-09T19:47:26Z ASau: So, Cisco.
2015-05-09T19:47:38Z ASau: Or something like that.
2015-05-09T19:47:44Z ASau: D-Link, Huawei.
2015-05-09T19:48:16Z ASau: Or even more hardcore like automitive/locomotive.
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2015-05-09T19:51:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think I would have had much more fun in the 80's when anyone could make computer programs for sale.
2015-05-09T19:51:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think most of the needs for user programs have been solved for the micro computer though.
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2015-05-09T19:53:53Z zacts: back again
2015-05-09T19:54:13Z ASau: Pixel_Outlaw: that would also imply writing more stupid software.
2015-05-09T19:56:07Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm just working on a few games right now. Seems to be the only thing you can make for PC anymore for sale. One is done aside from music.
2015-05-09T19:56:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: By PC I mean micro computer not Windows specifically.
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2015-05-09T21:13:05Z taylanub: bipt: it seems that ASau has a nasty case of GPL-phobia, so they won't touch anything *GPL with a ten-foot pole and will make up false reasons to get others to behave the same way.  I guess the only thing one can do is to inform people of the situation when ey's misinforming them.
2015-05-09T21:13:27Z ASau: Pf!
2015-05-09T21:13:55Z taylanub: .oO( some people make me turn into a blunt asshole rather quickly, but I don't see how else to deal with the situation. )
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2015-05-09T21:14:22Z ASau: As I said previously, you can spread whatever bullshit you like.
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2015-05-09T21:16:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Do other people like to collect programming books like I do? My programming shelf is getting too big! :D
2015-05-09T21:16:30Z ASau: Again, if you don't plan to reuse your work in commercial setting, GPL is fine.
2015-05-09T21:16:43Z ASau: If you write throw-away code, GPL is fine, but then any licence is.
2015-05-09T21:17:11Z scoofy: GPL can be commercial
2015-05-09T21:17:19Z scoofy: i think you mix commercial w/ closed source
2015-05-09T21:17:35Z ASau: GPL being commercial is an exception rather than rule.
2015-05-09T21:17:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: Looking to see if I should buy The Reasoned Schemer or The Seasoned Schemer. Just finished The Little Schemer which was fun if not a bit introductory for me.
2015-05-09T21:17:58Z ASau: Again, a lot of code is throw-away.
2015-05-09T21:18:13Z ASau: You can put it into public domain as well.
2015-05-09T21:18:45Z scoofy: well there's also WTFPL...
2015-05-09T21:18:59Z ASau: That's the point.
2015-05-09T21:19:17Z scoofy: ...? what 'point'
2015-05-09T21:19:25Z vraid: ASau: public domain isn't recognized in some legislations
2015-05-09T21:19:33Z ASau: If you're going to do month-long projects and write throw-away code, you can use any licence.
2015-05-09T21:19:38Z vraid: so you might have trouble there.
2015-05-09T21:19:39Z ASau: GPL included.
2015-05-09T21:19:47Z scoofy: if you want derivative works to be open sourced, it ought to be GPL. if you don't care about derivative works, you may use other licenses.
2015-05-09T21:19:53Z ASau: If you plan to reuse your skills and work in commercial setting on bigger projects,
2015-05-09T21:19:58Z ASau: it's a lot better to invest your time into something you will be able to reuse.
2015-05-09T21:20:34Z ASau: scoofy: if you want to be compensated for _complex_ software, it ought not to be GPL.
2015-05-09T21:21:07Z ddp: If you like The Little Schemer, you’ll like the other two.
2015-05-09T21:21:19Z scoofy: ASau: I wonder how RedHat manage to sell their GPL Linux...
2015-05-09T21:21:46Z scoofy: they must be magicians
2015-05-09T21:23:04Z ASau: They are:
2015-05-09T21:23:10Z ASau: 1. Unique exception.
2015-05-09T21:23:17Z ASau: 2. Nearly Oracle subsidiary.
2015-05-09T21:23:39Z ASau: Look around and find more examples of similar companies.
2015-05-09T21:23:47Z ASau: Do you see an abundancy of those?
2015-05-09T21:23:49Z scoofy: Microsoft?
2015-05-09T21:23:56Z scoofy: afaik .NET is not open source
2015-05-09T21:24:10Z scoofy: also Java (Sun/Oracle)
2015-05-09T21:24:18Z scoofy: s/not open/open/
2015-05-09T21:24:22Z ASau: Last time I checked, Microsoft's OS costed about 2K USD.
2015-05-09T21:24:44Z ASau: Java went open-source when Sun became bankrupt.
2015-05-09T21:24:52Z taylanub: "Everything that proves me wrong is a unique exception."
2015-05-09T21:25:15Z ASau: Before that Sun made revenue from selling hardware mostly.
2015-05-09T21:25:49Z scoofy: ASau: Mozilla Foundation had $311 million revenue in 2012 (according to Wikipedia)
2015-05-09T21:25:55Z scoofy: yet Firefox is open source
2015-05-09T21:26:01Z scoofy: surely they're also magicians
2015-05-09T21:26:05Z ASau: Mozilla is non-commercial. :)
2015-05-09T21:26:28Z ASau: Besides, they're nearly monopoly. :)
2015-05-09T21:26:36Z scoofy: then why did they have $311 million revenue in 2012?
2015-05-09T21:26:49Z ijp: this argument is bad and you all should feel bad
2015-05-09T21:26:50Z ASau: (And Mozilla became open when Netscape was near bankrupcy.)
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2015-05-09T21:27:19Z scoofy: your argument sounds like: "if your bankrupt, go open source" ?
2015-05-09T21:27:41Z ASau: That's what happened during OSS craze in mid-2000. :)
2015-05-09T21:27:50Z taylanub: ijp: we have a very persistent GPL-phobic troll who seems genuine in their beliefs so people are feeding
2015-05-09T21:27:53Z Tbone139: hi pnpuff, hope you want to talk about GPL
2015-05-09T21:27:53Z scoofy: yeah, they're 'nearly monopoly', besides Microsoft, Google, Apple....
2015-05-09T21:27:55Z ASau: See how Ingres became OSS? ;)
2015-05-09T21:28:36Z ASau: When CA felt that Ingres R3 loses the battle, they open-sourced it. :)
2015-05-09T21:28:45Z taylanub: scoofy: haven't you seen people's previous discussions with ASau today?  I wouldn't waste too much time. :)
2015-05-09T21:28:50Z ijp: taylanub: and yet, you continue
2015-05-09T21:29:17Z taylanub: ijp: just trying to throw in notices for others
2015-05-09T21:29:30Z scoofy: taylanub: nope. but seems it's indeed pointless time waste
2015-05-09T21:29:36Z ijp: rudybot: doctor, doctor, it hurts when I punch myself in the groin
2015-05-09T21:29:36Z rudybot: ijp: the correct way to do this would be by hooking it up to their groin, and having blurriness vary with arousal
2015-05-09T21:29:42Z ASau: scoofy: try looking at smaller companies that create complex software.
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2015-05-09T21:29:51Z ASau: scoofy: do they sell it with the source?
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2015-05-09T21:30:04Z ASau: How many of those do?
2015-05-09T21:30:37Z Pixel_Outlaw: There is a recursive discussion going on and both are using continuations.
2015-05-09T21:30:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: :D
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2015-05-09T21:31:48Z scoofy: ASau: why do you only count "small" companies? like, "every big company that sells GPL sofware, is an unique exception"
2015-05-09T21:32:05Z turbofail: stahp
2015-05-09T21:32:18Z ASau: Because really big coprorations are an exception already.
2015-05-09T21:32:37Z taylanub: scoofy: stop feeding :P
2015-05-09T21:32:38Z Pixel_Outlaw: turbofail, It can't until one returns an empty list :)
2015-05-09T21:33:31Z taylanub: scoofy: it seems ASau's mind cannot be changed; I'm afraid the best one can do is warn people upon spotting ASau misinforming them
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2015-05-09T21:34:00Z ASau: taylanub: come bring some convincing facts.
2015-05-09T21:34:01Z ijp: (let loop () (if (funny? Pixel_Outlaw) (error "should not happen") (begin (suppress-vocalisations '(groan)) (loop))))
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2015-05-09T21:34:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: heheh
2015-05-09T21:34:23Z scoofy *shrug*
2015-05-09T21:34:32Z ASau: "Facts" like Google, DeadRat, Oracle or Netscape are not convincing.
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2015-05-09T21:35:04Z taylanub: ASau: yes, we already know that facts don't convince you, so let's please stop
2015-05-09T21:35:21Z ASau: (BTW, just to remind you, MySQL AB went bankrupt. So did SleepyCat.)
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2015-05-09T21:41:09Z scoofy: ASau: here are two 'small' GPL/commercial comapanies for you: http://www.juce.com/ http://mega-nerd.com/SRC/
2015-05-09T21:41:19Z scoofy: JUCE is GPL, yet it costs $800 to use in commercial software
2015-05-09T21:41:47Z scoofy: SRC is GPL, but costs $1000 to use in commercial software
2015-05-09T21:42:00Z ASau: "Two" is not convincing.
2015-05-09T21:42:10Z ASau: Even two percent of the segment isn't.
2015-05-09T21:42:18Z scoofy: lol. okay, i'm done with you. /ignore
2015-05-09T21:42:42Z turbofail: lol
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2015-05-09T21:43:28Z ijp: congratulations you have wasted six hours
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2015-05-09T21:45:24Z Pixel_Outlaw: Time perhaps better spent hacking the parens.
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2015-05-09T21:45:30Z Pixel_Outlaw: Divining the binary.
2015-05-09T21:45:55Z turbofail: we could've written yet another half-baked proto-scheme implementation in that amount of time
2015-05-09T21:46:37Z tsumetai: But how would we know how to license it?
2015-05-09T21:46:41Z scoofy: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." -Linus Torvalds
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2015-05-09T21:46:54Z turbofail: with any luck we wouldn't have ever distributed it
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2015-05-09T21:47:43Z tsumetai: If everyone wrote their own code we wouldn't have this problem. :p
2015-05-09T21:48:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: *own scheme
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2015-05-09T21:50:39Z ASau: scoofy: example of semi-OSS project that went bankrupt and was bought by hardware company is really nice. :D
2015-05-09T21:50:53Z taylanub: ASau: STOP
2015-05-09T21:51:07Z ASau: scoofy: If GPL is so successful, why did they go bankrupt?
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2015-05-09T21:53:17Z tsumetai: Well, it's probably gone on too long. :)
2015-05-09T21:53:49Z ASau: Probably.
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2015-05-09T21:55:47Z ASau: Yet GPL fans insist that GPL is fine for long-running project despite facts like 10 years old company with GPL product being bought up by twice younger hardware producing comany. :)
2015-05-09T21:56:40Z turbofail: causality is weird
2015-05-09T21:57:24Z ASau: There're too many failures of GPL-believing companies around to make a discount.
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2015-05-09T21:57:56Z turbofail: but clearly no company that didn't believe in the GPL has ever failed
2015-05-09T21:58:01Z turbofail: whoops i'm feeding now
2015-05-09T21:58:07Z turbofail: rudybot: slap me
2015-05-09T21:58:09Z rudybot: turbofail: so did you slap me with a fish for the correct answer?
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2015-05-09T22:00:27Z scoofy: fact: 90% of all companies fail within 5 years
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2015-05-09T22:15:08Z ijp: 87.34% of all statistics are made up on the spot
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2015-05-09T22:18:49Z tsumetai: That sounds made up. :/
2015-05-09T22:19:51Z scoofy: http://statisticbrain.com/startup-failure-by-industry/
2015-05-09T22:20:01Z scoofy: given enough time, most companies fail, regardless of licensing model :)
2015-05-09T22:21:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: Waiting for Microsoft and Oracle myself.
2015-05-09T22:22:16Z scoofy: above study gives 63% failure rate for IT companies after 4 years of operation
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2015-05-09T23:14:21Z Pixel_Outlaw: Dammit who posted that Land of Lisp music video yesterday. I've got the damned thing in my head for a day now.
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