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2015-03-25T08:02:46Z taylanub: ilammy: I also thought/think of making a toy Scheme, if not in fact a minimal R7RS Scheme, probably written in Scheme, for experimentation purposes
2015-03-25T08:03:48Z taylanub: but writing it in Scheme could mean, how to say it, that I lose touch with the reality of typical hardware
2015-03-25T08:03:57Z ecraven: write it using llvm!
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2015-03-25T08:05:21Z taylanub: emitting llvm bytecode might do, or making a minimal custom VM (again written in Scheme).  but maybe I won't gain any simplicity in the end, and should just do my experimentation directly on Guile.
2015-03-25T08:06:19Z ecraven: I've played around with llvm, but some things are not straightforward to implement on it (varargs and continuations, for example)
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2015-03-25T08:06:45Z ecraven: but it would be a great thing to have, it shouldn't be too hard to make a decent JITting compiler (if you can make one at all)
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2015-03-25T08:19:42Z vibhavp: Is is necessary that a meta-circular evaluator has to be written in the same language of the interpreter?
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2015-03-25T08:21:48Z taylanub: vibhavp: from what I know, an MC evaluator is rarely as featureful as the host language, so you're really implementing a different language anyway (even if a subset of the current)
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2015-03-25T08:22:16Z taylanub: in other words, it would probably be silly to say that an evaluator is only MC once it implements the exact same features as the host evaluator...
2015-03-25T08:23:06Z vibhavp: taylanub: I have implemented most predicates for my Scheme, so I was thinking whether I could write eval and apply in scheme itself
2015-03-25T08:23:13Z taylanub: and if you made bigger changes like dynamic vs. static scoping, I'd say you can still call that metacircular since you use data types of the host and all...
2015-03-25T08:23:25Z vibhavp: but yeah, it would not really be featureful
2015-03-25T08:23:44Z taylanub: in any case I don't know of a clear/formal definition of "meta-circular"
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2015-03-25T08:25:20Z taylanub: hm, Wikipedia gives some insight
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2015-03-25T09:06:18Z vibhavp: What does the standard say about expressions like "(cdr '((if t 3) 2 3 4)"
2015-03-25T09:06:53Z vibhavp: oops wrong example
2015-03-25T09:07:14Z vibhavp: make that "(cdr '(1 (if t 2 )))"
2015-03-25T09:07:33Z vibhavp: Is the result of the evaluation supposed to be (if t 2) or 2?
2015-03-25T09:08:43Z Tbone139: FWIW mit-scheme gives me ((if t 2))
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2015-03-25T09:10:10Z vibhavp: Tbone139: guess I'll do that, thanks
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2015-03-25T10:39:29Z taylanub: Tbone139: an expression within (quote ...) is never evaluated in any way at all, it's purely literal data
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2015-03-25T10:42:13Z taylanub: (and this isn't going to change across Scheme implementations)
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2015-03-25T11:25:21Z cmpitg is now known as cmpitg|zZzZz
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2015-03-25T11:37:19Z mstevens: hello schemers
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2015-03-25T11:40:04Z mstevens: I have a SICP question. Has anyone worked through it at home, and how long did it take?
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2015-03-25T11:55:44Z kephra: mstevens, i think its designed that you can work through it within half a year - if you study more things then just this book
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2015-03-25T11:57:58Z mstevens: kephra: and probably also designed to work with classes, whereas I was pondering having a go at home
2015-03-25T11:58:24Z kephra: at home, its more typical to cross read it, and stop at points that are not already clear - so it mainly depends on how quick you get again on proceeding
2015-03-25T11:58:53Z mstevens: plus I can already program, which is both an upside and a downside
2015-03-25T11:59:01Z kephra: yes
2015-03-25T11:59:12Z wasamasa: just forget that you can already program
2015-03-25T11:59:30Z kephra: thats what I mean cross read - you skip chapters, where you think you already know it
2015-03-25T11:59:39Z wasamasa: especially if all you know happens to be PHP or some other horrible language
2015-03-25T11:59:47Z mstevens: wasamasa: mainly things like java
2015-03-25T12:00:01Z mstevens: "some other horrible language"
2015-03-25T12:00:06Z wasamasa: mstevens: well, then forget about best practices you know from it
2015-03-25T12:00:25Z wasamasa: mstevens: like, writing everything up in the form of class-based OO
2015-03-25T12:00:40Z wasamasa: mstevens: or segregating data into private sections
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2015-03-25T12:01:02Z mstevens: wasamasa: my motivation here is a mix of having always been interested by lisps, and having not done enough hardcore programming lately and trying to sort of re-solidify the foundation and get some exercises in
2015-03-25T12:02:08Z wasamasa: mstevens: sounds good
2015-03-25T12:02:42Z wasamasa: mstevens: knowing basic control structures and concepts is a valuable prerequisite, but the rest will be pretty different
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2015-03-25T12:03:31Z wasamasa: mstevens: solving all exercises from the first chapter will give you a good amount of abstract mathematical functions in something like 100 lines
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2015-03-25T12:10:20Z mstevens: I looked at the first chapter a little, it's newton-raphson for approximating functions iirc
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2015-03-25T12:20:49Z itissid1: Hi are there a set of small projects I could design to teach myself scheme.
2015-03-25T12:21:07Z wasamasa: scratch your own itch
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2015-03-25T12:21:45Z itissid1: Like lets say I made a simple chat client-server. 1 client 1 server
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2015-03-25T12:22:23Z wasamasa: like, by contributing to your chosen scheme implementation to make it better
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2015-03-25T12:25:01Z itissid1: wasamasa: I suppose I could start with racket
2015-03-25T12:25:03Z taylanub: itissid1: first, decide what Scheme "dialect" you want to learn: R6RS, R7RS, or that of a specific implementation.  R6/7RS are pretty limited; e.g. they have no networking API (though there's an SRFI for it, support isn't widespread).  for implementations, see https://wingolog.org/archives/2013/01/07/an-opinionated-guide-to-scheme-implementations
2015-03-25T12:25:06Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ozb2rem
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2015-03-25T12:28:43Z itissid1: thanks taylanub. Seems like Racket is the best for me.
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2015-03-25T12:40:54Z wasamasa: taylanub: is there any bot for this channel that does factoids?
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2015-03-25T12:42:26Z taylanub: wasamasa: nope
2015-03-25T12:42:37Z wasamasa: taylanub: is there a need for one?
2015-03-25T12:43:22Z taylanub: the only thing that comes to mind is that I've often redirected people to the above wingolog link
2015-03-25T12:43:35Z wasamasa: and riastradh's guide
2015-03-25T12:43:41Z taylanub: style guide?
2015-03-25T12:43:44Z wasamasa: yes
2015-03-25T12:44:09Z taylanub: I don't remember ever directing someone to that, but I guess it could be useful for the cases where someone asks for code review and their style is botched
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2015-03-25T12:45:23Z wasamasa: itissid1: anyways, that would be a possible task
2015-03-25T12:45:26Z kephra: taylanub, ++ for the winolog url
2015-03-25T12:45:33Z wasamasa: itissid1: writing up an irc bot that does factoids
2015-03-25T12:46:01Z taylanub: heh
2015-03-25T12:46:24Z wasamasa: or alternatively extending rudybot to do that
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2015-03-25T12:48:56Z kephra: but back to the initial idea, a chat client/server like itissid1 thought about: what about working out a small TCP compatibiltity library first for chicken, guile, racket, ...
2015-03-25T12:49:08Z kephra: or is there already one?
2015-03-25T12:49:14Z wasamasa: there is a SRFI proposal
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2015-03-25T12:49:20Z wasamasa: by the sagitarrius author
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2015-03-25T12:50:38Z wasamasa: http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-106/srfi-106.html
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2015-03-25T12:51:04Z kephra: i'm not thinking in terms of a boring standard working group, but in terms of writing a small lib on top of the different existing implementations
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2015-03-25T12:52:00Z wasamasa: sounds like a CL thing to do
2015-03-25T12:52:12Z wasamasa: or something to wait for until r7rs is widely adopted
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2015-03-25T12:52:31Z taylanub: kephra: implementing SRFI-106 on the Scheme implementations you mention would be nice I think
2015-03-25T12:53:14Z kephra: taylanub, yes, one could use the draft as a template to implement a lib on top of the different scheme implemenations
2015-03-25T12:53:23Z kephra: ... if the draft is sane
2015-03-25T12:53:28Z taylanub: not template; if you do it please conform to it :-)
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2015-03-25T12:54:00Z taylanub: well, sure, if it's a bad standard then have your way, but it looked pretty OK from a skim and from the author's other SRFIs
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2015-03-25T12:54:07Z kephra: or use a prefix for own defines
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2015-03-25T12:55:15Z taylanub: best just make a module that exports exactly the identifiers defined in that SRFI, doing exactly what that SRFI says they should do.  then ideally that module will be loadable as an R7RS library once those platforms support R7RS library syntax.
2015-03-25T12:55:53Z taylanub: indeed ideally it will be loadable as an R6RS library as well
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2015-03-25T12:59:16Z kephra: *yeah*
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2015-03-25T13:10:17Z kephra: http://kephra.de/src/MUD-Compat.txt <- sorry for posting Smalltalk here *blush* but this was some minimal wrapper to code a MUD server in several Smalltalks
2015-03-25T13:10:39Z kephra: I guess a scheme wrapper would be much smaller
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2015-03-25T13:14:54Z kephra: most of the fun was doing a real telnet server, that was able to process and reply IAC commands
2015-03-25T13:15:59Z kephra: wrote much more MUD code in Lisp then in Smalltalk - even if I first thought, that objects are a good idea for MUDs
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2015-03-25T13:24:30Z tsumetai: Aren't they?
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2015-03-25T13:28:52Z kephra: still dont know - the time of MUDs are over - but the much easier way to express your ideas in s-expression did win over the abstraction of objects
2015-03-25T13:29:36Z z0d: I'd also think that CLOS would be good for MUDs
2015-03-25T13:30:10Z z0d: I'd play a decent MUD
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2015-03-25T13:30:17Z kephra: still?
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2015-03-25T14:37:21Z kephra: http://o3db.com/proto/veritas.html <- btw, not to bore you with same GUI over and over again ... this time some wines
2015-03-25T14:38:25Z kephra: but the real progress is in being able to load scheme in 3 different ways: as script embedded in html, as script src loaded by a script tag in header or body, and with (load "urlname")
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2015-03-25T21:38:27Z jcowan: hoihoi
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2015-03-25T22:16:32Z kephra: jcowan, a netherland or japanese Hoi Hoi?
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2015-03-25T22:16:52Z jcowan: Or perhaps a Loglan one?
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2015-03-25T23:03:45Z lmt [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has been kicked from #scheme by kilimanjaro (lmt)
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2015-03-25T23:04:06Z lmt: y no ban??
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2015-03-25T23:04:26Z kilimanjaro: k
2015-03-25T23:04:29Z kilimanjaro: time to garbage collect
2015-03-25T23:04:38Z kilimanjaro has set mode +b *!*@184.71.170.250
2015-03-25T23:04:40Z lmt [~kilimanja@unaffiliated/kilimanjaro] has been kicked from #scheme by kilimanjaro (lmt)
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2015-03-25T23:24:56Z turbofail: huh.  what was lmt doing?
2015-03-25T23:26:06Z jcowan: Bans expire after a while.
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