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2015-03-24T13:31:30Z vanila: hi
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2015-03-24T13:32:09Z taylanub: hidy ho
2015-03-24T13:32:22Z vanila: hey taylanub :)
2015-03-24T13:32:30Z vanila: why don't you so the SRFIs from now?
2015-03-24T13:32:33Z vanila: do*
2015-03-24T13:32:46Z ecraven: :) anyone volunteered yet?
2015-03-24T13:33:16Z taylanub: I couldn't promise longetivity of a server I rented or set up
2015-03-24T13:33:35Z vanila: you needn't host a server
2015-03-24T13:33:55Z vanila: but I feel like you care about SRFIs a lot so you'd be good to overview if you wanted to
2015-03-24T13:34:08Z taylanub: WDYM?  wasn't the problem hosting space?
2015-03-24T13:34:25Z taylanub kind of forgot
2015-03-24T13:35:11Z vanila: I think that a few things are needed and can by provided by different people
2015-03-24T13:35:27Z vanila: part of it is hosting/mailing list server
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2015-03-24T13:35:45Z vanila: another part is maintaining the list of SRFIs/cataloguing new proposals
2015-03-24T13:35:54Z taylanub: if you mean managing the SRFI process in some way, I'm too inexperienced for that
2015-03-24T13:36:24Z vanila: well I think if you wanted to do it you'd be the best for it :)
2015-03-24T13:36:32Z vanila: if you don't want to I don't mean to pressure or anything
2015-03-24T13:37:03Z vanila: SRFI is really important - I am writing R7RS scheme code and I can't sort a list
2015-03-24T13:37:33Z taylanub: hm, did I implement the SRFI that defines sorting functions?  (forgot which)
2015-03-24T13:38:04Z vanila: yeah one of the schemes im using has the list sort srfi... another doesn't
2015-03-24T13:38:07Z vanila: i should fix that
2015-03-24T13:38:19Z taylanub: SRFI-95, looks like I have it
2015-03-24T13:38:32Z taylanub: (and with "implement" I mean I wrapped the ref impl in an R7RS library)
2015-03-24T13:39:12Z taylanub: ugh, these are polymorphic functions
2015-03-24T13:40:58Z vanila: im sorry but can you link me the srfi repo please?
2015-03-24T13:41:03Z vanila: i am not able to find it on gogole
2015-03-24T13:41:33Z taylanub: https://gitorious.org/taylan-scheme/srfi/  I'm getting an HTTP 500 at the moment...
2015-03-24T13:43:26Z taylanub: I think I'll move to notabug.org
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2015-03-24T13:51:49Z taylanub: vanila: https://notabug.org/taylanub/scheme-srfi
2015-03-24T13:51:57Z vanila: ty!
2015-03-24T13:52:00Z taylanub: ugh, their MarkDown is more broken than that of Gitorious
2015-03-24T13:55:00Z Riastradh: Is there a specification for `markdown'?  (Can it be broken if there isn't one...?)
2015-03-24T13:55:33Z vanila: there are many specifications!
2015-03-24T13:55:50Z taylanub: Riastradh: I suppose the ideal is being maximally intuitive? :P
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2015-03-24T13:55:55Z taylanub: recently there is CommonMark
2015-03-24T13:56:13Z vanila: There's a huge "incompatability matrix" here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweight_markup_language
2015-03-24T13:56:48Z taylanub: amazing that org-mode can do it all :D
2015-03-24T13:57:39Z vanila: btw taylanub i thought I would set up a VM with all the R7RS schemes I can find
2015-03-24T13:57:53Z vanila: if you want i can run tests of this srfi stuff on that
2015-03-24T13:58:31Z taylanub: how many fully conformant R7RS Schemes are there?
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2015-03-24T13:59:34Z vanila: oh that reminds me
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2015-03-24T14:04:32Z vanila: there's this "R7RS test suite" from chibi https://github.com/ashinn/chibi-scheme/blob/master/tests/r7rs-tests.scm
2015-03-24T14:04:39Z vanila: line 8 :| (chibi test) ; or (srfi 64)
2015-03-24T14:05:10Z taylanub: seems very R7RS :P
2015-03-24T14:05:11Z vanila: so ican't run this without editing in any other scheme
2015-03-24T14:05:37Z vanila: yeah i really believe we can make program that run in many scheme impls. if we just get things together a bit
2015-03-24T14:05:38Z taylanub: hm, just make it srfi-64 then, since there's an R7RS implementation of that...
2015-03-24T14:05:46Z vanila: that's what R7RS enables, that was missing in R5RS
2015-03-24T14:06:24Z taylanub: R6RS enabled it too.  I wish there had not been such a huge split.
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2015-03-24T14:14:51Z vanila: A portability problem I'm having is er-macros
2015-03-24T14:15:02Z vanila: is there any kind of standard for er-macros?
2015-03-24T14:15:31Z vanila: (they have different names in sagittarius and larceny)
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2015-03-24T14:24:08Z taylanub: vanila: the only standard macro systems are syntax-rules, and syntax-case in R6RS
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2015-03-24T14:25:25Z taylanub: I would go with sytnax-case really.  and syntax-parse in the future (maybe it can be implemented with syntax-case)
2015-03-24T14:25:30Z vanila: i should make a standard for er-macros
2015-03-24T14:25:44Z taylanub: please don't :-)
2015-03-24T14:25:44Z vanila: it would be more portable to use syntax-case but... i hate it :///
2015-03-24T14:25:55Z taylanub: what don't you like about syntax-case?
2015-03-24T14:26:00Z vanila: i can't use it
2015-03-24T14:26:06Z vanila: i get errors its painful, all I want is er
2015-03-24T14:26:12Z taylanub: that was my initial reaction too; I think one gets used to it
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2015-03-24T14:26:24Z vanila: its simple and any scheme impl. would be in terms of something like er no?
2015-03-24T14:26:28Z taylanub: that was also my initial reaction to syntax-rules, and call/cc, and delimited continuations, ...
2015-03-24T14:27:01Z taylanub: you probably just find er simpler because you learned it
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2015-03-24T14:30:29Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/129120  how to make this using syntax-case ?
2015-03-24T14:32:07Z cojy_: vanila: the interpret-tree and compile-pattern need to be defined in a for-syntax phase wrapper
2015-03-24T14:32:27Z cojy_: err sorry just compile patterns
2015-03-24T14:32:54Z cojy_: other than that it would be the same it looks like
2015-03-24T14:33:22Z vanila: for-syntax isnt' in R7RS- so I need more and more strange features
2015-03-24T14:33:44Z cojy_: neither is syntax-case is the problem
2015-03-24T14:33:53Z vanila: I think that a standardized er-macro would be better
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2015-03-24T14:34:08Z cojy_: er macros are definitely more simple and fundamental
2015-03-24T14:34:36Z vanila: right now sagittarius and larceny have er-macros (in larceny it is defined in terms of syntax-case...). you have to import them differently and they're called different things
2015-03-24T14:34:40Z cojy_: hygenic macros are a nice high level feature but it's not cool to push on people
2015-03-24T14:34:58Z cojy_: shift/reset is different because it can do all of call/cc
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2015-03-24T14:35:41Z taylanub: vanila: I wrote this a while ago, maybe it'll help: http://taylanub.github.io/doc/syntax-case-example.scm.txt
2015-03-24T14:36:47Z cojy_: the issue is for-syntax
2015-03-24T14:36:48Z vanila: this hepls a lot thanks :)
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2015-03-24T14:39:30Z taylanub: vanila: er macro transformers aren't R7RS either, and any Scheme with syntax-case should have something akin to for-syntax, but you can also just define local variables in the lambda that calls syntax case
2015-03-24T14:40:05Z vanila: i think they are too long to put in there, its its own module
2015-03-24T14:40:12Z taylanub: e.g. http://sprunge.us/CgcK
2015-03-24T14:41:05Z taylanub: if it's in a module, then your Scheme either has explicit phasing and you have to declare that the module should be imported in the first meta-phase, or your Scheme has implicit phasing and you can just import the module and not thinkg about phasing issues
2015-03-24T14:41:39Z vanila: hmm :S this phase stuff is a problem
2015-03-24T14:41:55Z taylanub: the phasing issues exist in er macros or *any* procedural macro system really
2015-03-24T14:42:53Z taylanub: because you will be running code at compile-time, hence the environment has to be defined, which is either implicitly the same environment as the real code will run in (or an approximation thereof) as in implicit phasing, or it's an environment into which you import modules as usual (by importing them to the first meta-phase)
2015-03-24T14:43:57Z vanila: This seems to be a deficiency of R7RS
2015-03-24T14:46:56Z taylanub: R7RS only has syntax-rules, so it needn't bother with phasing.  it's a deficiency of R7RS that it has no procedural macro system...
2015-03-24T14:47:49Z vanila: i wonder if i really should just rewriet this in pure syntax rules using CK macros
2015-03-24T14:48:03Z vanila: it's just more readable and nicer in normal scheme notation
2015-03-24T14:50:09Z taylanub: well, car/cdr hell is definitely not readable :)
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2015-03-24T14:50:43Z vanila: yeah I mean the compile-patterns part
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2015-03-24T14:53:02Z vanila: there doesn't seem to be any good solution for this :(
2015-03-24T14:53:45Z vanila: a srfi or whatever that introduces er macros would also have to give phasing extensions to the library system
2015-03-24T14:53:45Z taylanub: such is life in standard Scheme.  sell your soul to Guile instead :P
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2015-03-24T15:09:24Z technomancy: taylanub: is "car/cdr  hell" referring to defmacro style macros?
2015-03-24T15:10:07Z vanila: my er macro has a bit of it
2015-03-24T15:10:24Z taylanub: technomancy: ^ was referring to the lpaste above
2015-03-24T15:10:33Z vanila: it happens all over in scheme since we dont' have pattern matcher
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2015-03-24T15:10:49Z vanila: what i was trying to do is get my pattern matcher into a portable state :/
2015-03-24T15:10:59Z vanila: but i think there'ssomething missing to let this happen well
2015-03-24T15:10:59Z technomancy: wow geez; that is crying out for a pattern match =)
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2015-03-24T15:11:54Z technomancy: yeah, how is it there's no portable pattern match lib? its absence is quite puzzling.
2015-03-24T15:12:43Z vanila: there are a couple but I want mine
2015-03-24T15:12:51Z technomancy: oh, well then =)
2015-03-24T15:13:23Z technomancy: I really need to add a macro expander to microscheme and load a pattern matcher into that
2015-03-24T15:13:32Z technomancy: vanila: what are the existing options?
2015-03-24T15:13:32Z vanila: maybe i can make it work in an unportable way in many schemes then make a compatability lib for the er-macro part
2015-03-24T15:14:14Z vanila: https://github.com/SaitoAtsushi/pattern-match-lambda
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2015-03-24T15:14:54Z vanila: https://github.com/arcfide/foof/blob/master/match.scm
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2015-03-24T15:15:24Z technomancy: cool, thanks
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2015-03-24T15:16:31Z vanila: i would be interested if there's more
2015-03-24T15:16:32Z vanila: https://github.com/VincentToups/shadchen.scm/blob/master/shadchen.scm
2015-03-24T15:16:39Z vanila: this uses define-macro
2015-03-24T15:16:43Z vanila: the other two should be portable
2015-03-24T15:17:11Z technomancy: ported from elisp, wow =)
2015-03-24T15:17:53Z technomancy: isn't shadchen.el a port of racket's system?
2015-03-24T15:18:09Z taylanub: it all descends from SML anyway, doesn't it? :P
2015-03-24T15:19:22Z vanila: there might be some really old lisp matching stuff before ML maybe?
2015-03-24T15:19:29Z vanila: it would be instereting to see history of that
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2015-03-24T15:20:32Z cojy_: i'd have to say there was for sure
2015-03-24T15:21:07Z cojy_: mlisp was already doing more advanced pattern matching than we have now
2015-03-24T15:23:20Z cojy_: ml and mlisp2 were the same year hmm
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2015-03-24T16:40:08Z great-cthulhu: why mit switch to python?
2015-03-24T16:40:13Z great-cthulhu: scheme seems better
2015-03-24T16:40:41Z vanila: it's called 'dumbing down'
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2015-03-24T16:41:23Z wasamasa: it's closer to what they need after graduation
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2015-03-24T16:51:43Z great-cthulhu: anyone ever write a dns server in scheme?
2015-03-24T16:51:54Z great-cthulhu: or something like nfs?
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2015-03-24T16:56:10Z great-cthulhu: ah the possibilities
2015-03-24T16:56:13Z great-cthulhu: :)
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2015-03-24T16:56:58Z wasamasa: doesn't sound particularly fun or interesting
2015-03-24T16:58:52Z mario-goulart: great-cthulhu: you seem to be looking for trouble. :-)
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2015-03-24T18:23:11Z great-cthulhu: ?
2015-03-24T18:23:23Z great-cthulhu: trouble eh
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2015-03-24T20:25:02Z vanila: anyone scheme impl can tell me "useless import.. you imported 'foo' but didn't use any procedures from it"?
2015-03-24T20:29:38Z LeoNerd: I would imagine some of them can tell you that, sure
2015-03-24T20:29:47Z vanila: :/
2015-03-24T20:30:45Z vanila: LeoNerd, that's useless - you needn't say such things
2015-03-24T20:31:20Z LeoNerd: It's not useless at all - for instance, there are languages where such analysis isn't possible
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2015-03-24T20:32:40Z vanila: putting you on /ignore now
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2015-03-24T22:22:42Z tsumetai: Wow. :o
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2015-03-24T22:28:05Z tsumetai: Haha! :p
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2015-03-24T23:06:44Z ilammy_: Duh, fixed one bug in Chibi's bignums, but just found another one. Being schemer is hard.
2015-03-24T23:07:42Z evhan: ilammy_: It's thankless work but someone's got to do it.
2015-03-24T23:07:52Z evhan: ... Right?
2015-03-24T23:08:32Z taylanub: you could report the bugs and move to another Scheme impl until they're fixed :P
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2015-03-24T23:10:13Z ilammy_: evhan: not *that* thankless, there is at least one person who will be grateful (me)\
2015-03-24T23:10:37Z Riastradh: ilammy_: Writing automatic tests for this?
2015-03-24T23:11:10Z Riastradh: ilammy_: I wrote a few for the bitwise operations in MIT Scheme, in tests/runtime/test-integer-bits.scm.
2015-03-24T23:11:18Z Riastradh: Might be able to make some use of those.
2015-03-24T23:12:34Z ilammy_: Sure. I wrote a few too, they were passing well with the reference implementation (with mine one also).
2015-03-24T23:13:17Z ilammy_: But then I got bored of thinking over them. And wrote a generator. And apparentely I'm extra lucky in the department of running into border cases.
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2015-03-24T23:14:39Z Riastradh: Quite so.  Generators for edge cases are always helpful.  The MIT Scheme tests probably don't exercise enough edge cases, but they do cover random samples of bignum and fixnum ranges at least.
2015-03-24T23:15:15Z ilammy_: Coming to think of it, it seems I'm a "depth-first" guy.
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2015-03-24T23:15:33Z ilammy_: Initially I wanted to write my own toy Scheme implementation.
2015-03-24T23:16:45Z ilammy_: And then I found out about nanopass, but it was not working with R7RS. So I started porting it.
2015-03-24T23:17:08Z ilammy_:  And then I needed sets for it, but there were none for Chibi. So I ported SRFI 113. But found bugs in it...
2015-03-24T23:17:21Z vanila: that nanopass sutff you were doing with CK macros was super cool and i learned from it
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2015-03-24T23:17:55Z ilammy_:  And then I needed hashes, and a XOR operation for it. And found SRFI 33, but though that it is bad to depend on a withdrawn SRFI, so started porting SRFI 60.
2015-03-24T23:19:07Z ilammy_: Think I need to be extra careful to not find myself soldering a PC from scratch...
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2015-03-24T23:20:37Z vanila: haha, i have the same problem
2015-03-24T23:21:18Z Riastradh: ilammy_: The trick is to go along fixing everything until someone decides it's it to pay you to steer you toward things to fix.
2015-03-24T23:21:58Z Riastradh: s/it's it/it's worth it/1
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