2015-03-20T00:00:06Z SrPx: kephra: sorry but I'm not sure how this helps :(
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2015-03-20T00:03:25Z ijp: SrPx: but graph reduction as a technique for functional languages is well studied, but I don't know if it is still fashionable
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2015-03-20T00:06:43Z SrPx: Uh huh, the point is I've been reading on that papers (and papers that cited it) that those techniques, including graph reduction are not optimal. So I was wondering if one has actually implemented the optimal algorithm and how it would look on pseudocode
2015-03-20T00:07:19Z SrPx: "The technique of graph reductions[9] avoids some copying by treating a lambda expression as a tree (...) But this only postpones copying by one step. If the lambda term in a redex is represented by a shared section of graph, that section must be copied before the redex can be reduced."
2015-03-20T00:07:33Z ijp: SrPx: but re: call by need lc, the original paper on that has the footnote "our calculus captures neither full laziness as described by wadsworth, nor the sharing required by optimal-calculus interpreters. however, as observed by arvind, kathail and pingali, full laziness can always be obtained by extracting the maximal free expressions of a function at compile time"
2015-03-20T00:08:33Z SrPx: So, if I understand this footnote, you can achieve full laziness but not optimality
2015-03-20T00:08:37Z SrPx: Correct?
2015-03-20T00:08:56Z ijp: that is how I interpret it
2015-03-20T00:09:05Z ijp: but anyway, the problem is often that with modern hardware, optimal often isn't
2015-03-20T00:09:14Z kephra: SrPx, likely not - because Norwig provides a pragmatic easy implementation, while you are talking at a much higher abstraction - did miss the main point of your question ;-(
2015-03-20T00:10:20Z ijp: SrPx: I suspect if the relevant papers don't provide implementations, you probably won't find one
2015-03-20T00:10:33Z SrPx: kephra: no problems, thank you ! :)
2015-03-20T00:11:20Z SrPx: ijp: there is actually a neat implementation, but it is a pile of old C files, written back on the 90's
2015-03-20T00:11:53Z SrPx: Since the paper is so old, I suspect the field has evolved in some direction and there will probably be good stuff in - I'm just not sure how to get there
2015-03-20T00:12:32Z ijp: well, it may have just went out of fashion and festered *shrug*
2015-03-20T00:13:19Z SrPx: Hmm, I doubt so. There are tons of citations and fresh papers talking about interaction nets
2015-03-20T00:13:35Z SrPx: but who knows... so many things to follow, i'm lost on the woods
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2015-03-20T00:20:32Z SrPx: ijp: well seems like it doesn't have contents online
2015-03-20T00:20:56Z SrPx: ijp: sad! In 1999 I was playing pokémon on my garden lol.
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2015-03-20T00:24:06Z ijp: and in 2015 you're still playing pokémon, only now on the commute because it's the only place you have time?
2015-03-20T00:24:40Z turbofail: speak for yourself, i have plenty of time to play it
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2015-03-20T00:39:43Z SrPx: I'm not sure what a commute is, but that sounds correct
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2015-03-20T02:54:18Z {0}grant: How close is Scheme code being from being as-portable as CL code, at the standard level?
2015-03-20T02:54:30Z {0}grant: Like, R7RS doesn't 'solve' this still -- right?
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2015-03-20T03:07:26Z kephra: scheme versions differ a lot, if you need much more then r4rs
2015-03-20T03:09:52Z {0}grant: kephra: Regarding me?
2015-03-20T03:10:37Z kephra: yes - but also common lisp is only half of the bill to pay for portability - e.g. you likely need libraries like cl-port for "modern" applications
2015-03-20T03:10:39Z {0}grant: I'm saying regarding the large version of the standard, am I wrong to think that an explicit goal for such a seperation is based around making such a thing more potable via the stardnard?
2015-03-20T03:11:01Z {0}grant: Or is this a partial side-effect of an unrealted goal?
2015-03-20T03:12:28Z kephra: a standard makes portablity easier, but coming from forth point of view its not necessary
2015-03-20T03:13:17Z kephra: i think you could write portable scheme code, in the same way as you write portable forth code - just add the necessary words/defines that is missing in your implementation, and required for your app
2015-03-20T03:13:24Z {0}grant is interested in implementing a basic Scheme by the end of the year, to somepoint next year -- and doesn't want to write a whole bunch of non-trivial code in it, to find it's useless elsewhere. :^P
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2015-03-20T03:16:50Z {0}grant: I mean, ultimately and honestly, my first Scheme implementation will like be shite and too I do not seem myself writing a whole bunch in it -- besides the tooling for and/or the implementation itself.
2015-03-20T03:17:09Z kephra: if your scheme is useful or useless depends more on what kind of use you plan. e.g. I'm currently writing a non recursive interpreter for a scheme like language in JS - I guess it will be useless outside of my scope: add reader macros for infix notation to provide a 4gl
2015-03-20T03:18:30Z {0}grant: kephra: Eventually, I want to write a Scheme that writes directly to RISC's instruction set; But that's more far out, right now, the goal-posts are set to more tangiable and modest goals.
2015-03-20T03:19:05Z kephra: so, better stick to some lower bar for your first scheme: r4rs
2015-03-20T03:19:09Z {0}grant: But again, said goals, I guess would be wise not to write non-trivial code outside of the actual impementation and any relastted tooling.
2015-03-20T03:20:00Z {0}grant: kephra: So by that, I take it that R7RS Small still happens to be notably larger than R7R4 and prior?
2015-03-20T03:20:08Z kephra: you might want to look at sbcl, cmucl for lisp jit
2015-03-20T03:20:09Z {0}grant: I haven't checked pre-R6RS.
2015-03-20T03:20:55Z kephra: http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/ftpdir/scm/r4rstest.scm <- the good thing about r4rs is that you have tests
2015-03-20T03:21:38Z kephra: you might want to talk to the guru's here - but I have the feeling that most schemers dislike r7rs, and stick to r4 to r6 instead
2015-03-20T03:22:22Z {0}grant: kephra: Dislike for general implementation details, or more-so the general ideleogy shift of moving a bit more away from it's "minimal roots"?
2015-03-20T03:22:42Z kephra: i think its more about the scheme=small idea
2015-03-20T03:23:26Z kephra: thats similar to forth thinking about portability - its easier to port an app from a forth system that only needs 4kb, then to port an app, if you used a forth system of 32kb
2015-03-20T03:23:45Z {0}grant: kephra: Can you expand on that? From an outsider, that's what really got me more interested in Scheme -- in that you have a modularized standard.
2015-03-20T03:24:14Z kephra: because if you move to a different system, you need to write fewer words to make your new forth half way look like the old one
2015-03-20T03:26:41Z {0}grant: I need to look a bit more into Forth, too, someone was suggesting me that for a general 'easy to implement' system.
2015-03-20T03:27:23Z kephra: forth is easy to implement totally wrong ;-(
2015-03-20T03:27:48Z kephra: e.g. most forth systems for Unix are not really forth
2015-03-20T03:28:14Z kephra: pm ok to elaborate this, {0}grant - else it would be much to off topic here
2015-03-20T03:29:33Z {0}grant: kephra: They constested, and went on a long speel ... that being said, a lot of seemed like nonsense, so maybe they were just BS'n. Not really sure what else to say, besides I'll leave it there. Don't have the convo logged anywhere to direct you to it, nor do I remember a lot of what they said. :^P
2015-03-20T03:35:39Z {0}grant: Does Scheme have anything like ASDF, that O
2015-03-20T03:35:51Z {0}grant: I've been missing?*
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2015-03-20T04:37:41Z kephra: there is no package manager for all schemes, but instead implementations might have their own, e.g. Raco for Racket
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2015-03-20T11:13:14Z xyh: if I use a hash-table of string to implement symbol (of course),
2015-03-20T11:13:15Z xyh: when I compile a source-file to a ready-to-be-loaded-file, how the symbol should be handled ?
2015-03-20T11:13:15Z xyh: for when I need to load the ready-to-be-loaded-file, the hash-table might be different from the one before.
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