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2015-02-24T02:12:59Z hardmath123: I suppose you guys get this a lot, but, I'm curious about the current state of scheme implementations.
2015-02-24T02:13:54Z hardmath123: In particular, what would you recommend for a scheme compiler that has easy C bindings and a good POSIX interface, so that I can do some systems programming in scheme?
2015-02-24T02:14:08Z hardmath123: I've looked at Chicken Scheme, but I'm not sure how stable/actively developed it is.
2015-02-24T02:14:15Z hardmath123: Racket's POSIX interface looks a bit sketchy.
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2015-02-24T02:33:47Z cojy_: id bet chicken is the second most active after racket
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2015-02-24T02:41:32Z hardmath123: Hmm
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2015-02-24T02:53:53Z cojy_: there's also guile
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2015-02-24T03:01:33Z hardmath123: hmm yes, though i've heard guile is meant more for embedded scheme in scriptable applications
2015-02-24T03:01:39Z hardmath123: not for creating standalone binaries
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2015-02-24T03:05:07Z cojy_: hardmath123: historically yet, but its moving the other way
2015-02-24T03:05:23Z cojy_: i hear the native code compiler isn't far away
2015-02-24T03:05:33Z cojy_: its already much faster recently
2015-02-24T03:07:57Z hardmath123: well, i guess. i'd rather have a compiler though, so i can distribute binaries.
2015-02-24T03:08:08Z hardmath123: that's my other issue with racket. the raco architecture seems like a hack to me.
2015-02-24T03:09:10Z Riastradh: Native-code compiler does not mean easily distributable executables.
2015-02-24T03:09:47Z hardmath123: compilers that emit c or llvm are pretty portable?
2015-02-24T03:10:09Z cojy_: theres still the runtime to deal with
2015-02-24T03:16:43Z hardmath123: well, ok, by portable i mean "can generate a binary for any reasonable UNIX without having to install something on that unix"
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2015-02-24T03:23:07Z kephra: as far as I know only Forth systems have target compilers, and ST/X for Smalltalk
2015-02-24T03:23:59Z kephra: target meta compiler: I want to produce an image, interpreter and primitives for a different platform
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2015-02-24T03:36:24Z Riastradh: ...or any of many cross-compiler toolchains...
2015-02-24T03:36:36Z Riastradh: Examples: GCC, Clang.
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2015-02-24T08:57:03Z taylanub: hardmath123: Guile is very good for integration with C code, and has good POSIX support
2015-02-24T08:59:12Z taylanub: hardmath123: Guile used to be touted mainly as "extension language for C programs" but nowadays it's suitable for stand-alone use as well.  although it doesn't compile Scheme to stand-alone binaries.
2015-02-24T09:00:21Z taylanub: perhaps one could just ship a minimal C program with libguile linked statically, and a bunch of Scheme code shipping with it, or so...
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2015-02-24T12:10:35Z serses: why i get accumulate unbound variable?
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2015-02-24T13:11:17Z taylanub: serses: show code?
2015-02-24T13:11:43Z serses: (accumulate + 1 (list 1 2 3))
2015-02-24T13:11:58Z serses: i guess accumulate is  not build-in
2015-02-24T13:12:13Z taylanub: serses: it's not, indeed
2015-02-24T13:12:34Z serses: is there a alternative to edwin editor?
2015-02-24T13:13:02Z taylanub: serses: Emacs, but it's written in Elisp and not Scheme
2015-02-24T13:13:12Z taylanub: GNU Emacs I mean.  (there's also XEmacs but almost nobody uses it)
2015-02-24T13:13:39Z serses: well that sucks
2015-02-24T13:14:22Z taylanub: serses: Racket has an IDE called DrRacket, though that's very different
2015-02-24T13:14:59Z taylanub: serses: you can really use Emacs for Scheme though.  there's Geiser-mode for integrating Emacs with Guile or Racket
2015-02-24T13:15:23Z serses: ok thanks im going to look at it
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2015-02-24T13:25:16Z ecraven: serses: MIT/GNU Scheme also works with Emacs's SLIME
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2015-02-24T16:14:07Z uber_hulk: why is ((+ 2 3)) is error?
2015-02-24T16:14:17Z uber_hulk: and why (+) is 0?
2015-02-24T16:15:46Z LeoNerd: The result of  (+ 2 3)  is probably 5, and therefore th eresult of that is the result of  (5)
2015-02-24T16:15:52Z LeoNerd: But 5 isn't executable as a procedure
2015-02-24T16:16:04Z pjdelport: uber_hulk: You can sort-of think of () as a function calling operator. When you say ((+ 2 3)), you're actually trying to call the result of (+ 2 3) itself as a function.
2015-02-24T16:16:28Z pjdelport: (The result is a number, so trying to call a number as a function is the error.)
2015-02-24T16:16:29Z LeoNerd: There's no sort-of about it. It is function application :)
2015-02-24T16:16:42Z pjdelport: LeoNerd: I meant that it's sort-of an operator. :)
2015-02-24T16:16:51Z LeoNerd: It's a circumfix operator
2015-02-24T16:17:18Z pjdelport: Right, but it's syntax; not what is conventionally meant with "operator" in Scheme.
2015-02-24T16:17:33Z LeoNerd nod
2015-02-24T16:18:14Z pjdelport: uber_hulk: (+) and (*) are designed to be the way they are because you can actually think of them as "sum" and "product" functions, respectively.
2015-02-24T16:18:24Z pjdelport: (+) is the sum of zero numbers, which is 0.
2015-02-24T16:18:44Z pjdelport: and (*) is the product of zero numbers, which is 1 (the multiplicative identity, just like 0 is the additive identity)
2015-02-24T16:19:26Z pjdelport: The same thing happens with (and), (or), and similar functions.
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2015-02-24T16:21:40Z uber_hulk: I got it
2015-02-24T16:21:43Z uber_hulk: thanks guys
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2015-02-24T16:38:16Z xyh: hi friends! ^-^ do we have a noun for a thread of beads in english, which without any religious meanings (like "rosary") ???
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2015-02-24T16:39:38Z ijp: "beads"
2015-02-24T16:39:40Z fds: I've only seen 'worry beads' (in the Greek cultural context).
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2015-02-24T16:40:21Z fds: An odd question for #scheme though...
2015-02-24T16:40:40Z ijp: rudybot: does "beads" have mardi gras implications?
2015-02-24T16:40:40Z rudybot: ijp: Mardi Gras is coming, and with it, the impulse to shout "show us your ttys"
2015-02-24T16:40:56Z ijp: crude, but not unamusing
2015-02-24T16:42:53Z xyh: fds: I am thinking of "threaded code interpreter".
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2015-02-24T16:45:38Z xyh: how about in Deutsch ?
2015-02-24T16:46:27Z pjdelport: xyh: Necklace? Strand?
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2015-02-24T17:15:11Z uber_hulk: Hi what am I doing wrong here https://gist.github.com/anonymous/906d70123313d4ef34a9 ?
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2015-02-24T17:16:16Z vraid: uber_hulk: do you mean to redefine fizz three times rather than calling the previous definition?
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2015-02-24T17:17:11Z ijp: uber_hulk: in applicative order you would reduce it *before* calling fiz
2015-02-24T17:17:29Z ijp: which you should be calling, rather than defining
2015-02-24T17:18:04Z uber_hulk: ljp sorry I don't understand
2015-02-24T17:18:20Z uber_hulk: what do you mean before calling fizz? I am not yet calling
2015-02-24T17:18:33Z ijp: uber_hulk: what I'm saying is your steps bear no relation to the text
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2015-02-24T17:19:00Z uber_hulk: hmm, then what it should be? Can you please write
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2015-02-24T17:19:57Z ijp: it should look something like 1. (fizz (+ 1 -1) 1) 2. (fizz 0 1) 3. (* (/ 0 1) (/ 1 0)) 4. (* 0 (/ 1 0)) 5. error
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2015-02-24T17:20:36Z ijp: which is 5 steps not 3, but whatever
2015-02-24T17:21:39Z uber_hulk: ljp okya you are doing it from left to right
2015-02-24T17:21:45Z uber_hulk: but in sicp he does from right to left
2015-02-24T17:21:49Z uber_hulk: but that's fine
2015-02-24T17:21:51Z ijp: then it errors on step 4
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2015-02-24T17:25:47Z uber_hulk: i see
2015-02-24T17:27:19Z ijp: basically, every time you divide by zero, god kills a kitten
2015-02-24T17:28:25Z taylanub: *gasp*
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2015-02-24T17:41:35Z uber_hulk: oho
2015-02-24T17:41:39Z uber_hulk: no killing kittens
2015-02-24T17:42:43Z uber_hulk: ljp: so in substitution appicative order first we substitue all the values
2015-02-24T17:42:54Z uber_hulk: and then evalute from right to left or vice versa?
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2015-02-24T19:11:17Z taylanub: uber_hulk: it's ijp, not ljp :-)
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2015-02-24T23:04:35Z dxtr: Is there a generally preferred implementation that one should begin with?
2015-02-24T23:04:52Z ecraven: dxtr: no, pick one that has what you need
2015-02-24T23:05:18Z dxtr: community.schemewiki.org seems down
2015-02-24T23:05:38Z ecraven: indeed :9
2015-02-24T23:05:46Z taylanub: dxtr: nope.  but Racket is made at a university partly with students at mind and has a friendly IDE and a mode to go through SICP with, so it might be a good fit for education.  (but maybe not for someone who already knows computer-science/computer-engineering/programming and just wants to learn Scheme specifically)
2015-02-24T23:06:13Z ecraven: dxtr: often mentioned are (in no particular order) chicken, gambit, gauche, racket, mit/gnu scheme, guile, chibi
2015-02-24T23:06:17Z ecraven: I probably forgot a few
2015-02-24T23:07:20Z dxtr: Are there any implementations that does not have the POSIX stuff one might find useful?
2015-02-24T23:07:36Z dxtr: (And regexes would be nice)
2015-02-24T23:07:45Z ecraven: most implementations have most things, but not always portably
2015-02-24T23:08:07Z ecraven: racket has the advantage of having a lot of stuff, but it isn't strictly Scheme
2015-02-24T23:08:43Z ecraven: it isn't the fastest either ;) but that's not a problem most of the time
2015-02-24T23:09:05Z ecraven: guile has seen a lot of work recently. chicken has a lot of "eggs" (extensions) and isn't very slow (as it compiles to C)
2015-02-24T23:09:19Z ecraven: MIT/GNU Scheme has a very good compiler, but is a bit old in places
2015-02-24T23:09:36Z ecraven: (though if you use emacs, it's one of the few that have half-decent SLIME support)
2015-02-24T23:09:55Z ecraven: chibi is small and one of the few to support most (all?) of r7rs
2015-02-24T23:10:25Z dxtr: Right
2015-02-24T23:10:29Z ecraven: there's also chez, if you want a commercial Scheme, it's supposed to be very good and fast, but as far as I know they don't sell any licenses at the moment :-/
2015-02-24T23:11:08Z dxtr: I have looked at Racket earlier but if I remember correctly it didn't have an option to NOT install the graphical stuff
2015-02-24T23:11:25Z dxtr: I don't need any fancy GUIs and things like that.
2015-02-24T23:11:41Z vraid: ecraven: racket does support r5rs
2015-02-24T23:12:11Z ecraven: vraid: almost everything supports r5rs, but now that is history. r7rs is more of a common denominator than r6rs ever was, so I don't think it's wise to ignore it, personally
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2015-02-24T23:16:41Z dxtr: ecraven: gambit looks nice. It has both an interpreter and a compiler
2015-02-24T23:26:12Z ecraven: dxtr: many Schemes do :)
2015-02-24T23:26:47Z dxtr: Oh right :p
2015-02-24T23:27:11Z ecraven: but the best is probably to find one that seems to fit your needs, then just start with it
2015-02-24T23:27:22Z ecraven: the skills (if not the actual code) are transferable :)
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2015-02-24T23:35:24Z dxtr: ecraven: Yeah, I'm trying chicken right now and I have a good feeling so far
2015-02-24T23:35:34Z dxtr: Thanks :)
2015-02-24T23:35:59Z ecraven: some have a dedicated channel (#chicken for example), though you can ask questions in here too :)
2015-02-24T23:36:13Z dxtr: That's neat
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2015-02-24T23:36:42Z dxtr: One last question: Can you recommend a good book or resource? Can't have too many of those
2015-02-24T23:38:03Z taylanub: dxtr: depending on your level, any of: SICP, HtDP, The Little Schemer, The Reasoned Schemer, The Seasoned Schemer
2015-02-24T23:38:31Z ecraven: some of these are available for free (see the topic of this channel, for example)
2015-02-24T23:40:07Z dxtr: taylanub: My level is a lot of C, Perl, Python, Java and PHP but no lisp worth mentioning
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2015-02-24T23:41:32Z taylanub: maybe http://taylanub.github.io/doc/lisp-rundown.txt then :P
2015-02-24T23:42:38Z taylanub: (I wrote that kind of for already-programmers who know no Lisp.  it's also the absolute fundamentals of Lisp though, and taking a perhaps strange approach to explaining them)
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2015-02-24T23:43:25Z dxtr: taylanub: Neat
2015-02-24T23:47:47Z dxtr: Is "The Little Schemer" the one for complete and utter morons like me?
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