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Which are the most commonly used alternative names for car and cdr: head, tail, or first, rest, or something else? 2015-01-24T11:34:45Z pflanze: Haskell uses head, tail, but I'm wondering about Racket, other Schemes, MLs, etc. 2015-01-24T11:38:02Z pflanze found https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6767031 2015-01-24T11:43:59Z zwer_e joined #scheme 2015-01-24T11:45:03Z alexei___ quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-24T11:47:12Z zwer quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2015-01-24T11:49:28Z uber_hulk quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 2015-01-24T11:53:51Z z0d: pflanze: usually first and rest 2015-01-24T11:54:38Z z0d: but most code I've seen use car & cdr. 2015-01-24T11:56:06Z brbblnch joined #scheme 2015-01-24T11:56:24Z brbblnch: Hi 2015-01-24T11:59:56Z brbblnch: I'm trying to write code to run DFAs, and so on, but I get an error trying it with guile. Here is the code http://paste.lisp.org/display/145356 . Could somebody tell me what's wrong ? 2015-01-24T12:00:39Z Soft- quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-24T12:01:15Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2015-01-24T12:01:47Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2015-01-24T12:08:33Z pflanze: z0d, yes, and I'm using car/cdr in Scheme code, too. I'm working on libraries to do functional programming in Perl, though, and am trying to decide on which names to use there (as aliases for car, cdr, mind you :). 2015-01-24T12:10:51Z pflanze: (I had decided on head/tail but am now running into conflict with an existing library that uses 'tail' as syntax for a tail call, and am checking whether it's a better idea to add a syntactical alias to that library, or change my libraries.) 2015-01-24T12:11:28Z wasamasa: hmm 2015-01-24T12:11:33Z wasamasa: first and rest should work then 2015-01-24T12:11:44Z pflanze: So far: head tail: Haskell, Scala. first rest: Mathematica, (Rebol), Clojure. 2015-01-24T12:12:03Z wasamasa: yeah, I'm suggesting it because of clojure 2015-01-24T12:12:26Z wasamasa: pflanze: I assume you've already seen the higher-order programming book for perl 2015-01-24T12:12:36Z pflanze: Yes, I have 2015-01-24T12:12:52Z pflanze: Have only read part of it though. (Didn't buy it) 2015-01-24T12:13:31Z pflanze: IIRC it was not dealing with functional streams and tail call optimization, and/or used weird abstractions, 2015-01-24T12:13:47Z pflanze: at least for some reason I turned my back with disappointment. 2015-01-24T12:14:25Z pflanze: To be fair, at the time this book was written Perl still had bugs that prevented my approaches from working. 2015-01-24T12:14:56Z wasamasa: http://hop.perl.plover.com/chap06.html 2015-01-24T12:15:53Z pflanze: Did you read it? 2015-01-24T12:15:59Z wasamasa: I did skim it mostly 2015-01-24T12:16:11Z wasamasa: and remember it dealing with both infinite streams and iterators 2015-01-24T12:16:21Z pflanze: Yes but in a weird way, iirc. 2015-01-24T12:16:41Z wasamasa: well, it's perl :P 2015-01-24T12:16:43Z pflanze: What I'm doing is really porting |delay| etc. over to Perl. 2015-01-24T12:17:15Z pflanze: https://github.com/pflanze/functional-perl if you're interested. 2015-01-24T12:17:40Z pflanze: https://github.com/pflanze/functional-perl/blob/master/examples/fibs for an example. 2015-01-24T12:19:16Z pflanze: I'll try to get HOP from a library, and ping Mark Jason Dominus soon. 2015-01-24T12:19:35Z wasamasa knows of a CHICKEN scheme hacker who still likes writing perl 2015-01-24T12:20:50Z pflanze: Do you remember his name? I'll send him notice, too, then. 2015-01-24T12:23:03Z wasamasa: it's fIorz on #chicken 2015-01-24T12:23:39Z pflanze: Thanks! 2015-01-24T12:34:20Z vanila joined #scheme 2015-01-24T12:37:03Z Soft- joined #scheme 2015-01-24T12:38:34Z pflanze: Ah, HOP is available here for free: http://hop.perl.plover.com/book/ 2015-01-24T12:42:10Z wasamasa: yes! 2015-01-24T12:44:24Z Natch quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-24T12:44:31Z pflanze: Ok, differences: a "promise" is really just a thunk there. Uses undef as nil, which I did too at first until I realized it is easily confused with pruned variables (variables often need to be set to undef (or weakened) against retaining too much memory). 2015-01-24T12:45:29Z pflanze: I'm surprised it's better than I memorized. 2015-01-24T12:45:52Z pflanze: (I've seen too many "FP" layers on top of iterators.) 2015-01-24T12:46:01Z Natch joined #scheme 2015-01-24T12:48:24Z pflanze: But HOP doesn't take any precautions against memory leaks; maybe it was just that which put me off. 2015-01-24T12:49:52Z pflanze: Aha, an ugly point is where he memoizes by storing the result of the thunk in the cons cells directly. 2015-01-24T12:57:19Z pflanze: (and doesn't use any type tagging to differentiate the thunks from other functions stored in cons cells) 2015-01-24T12:58:39Z vanila: perl is based on ref counting isnt it/ 2015-01-24T12:58:48Z pflanze: I guess my quick summary of the book would be: pretty good (better than those "FP" libraries using iterators), starting properly in Scheme/ML/Haskell tradition, but then only going half the way, i.e. not very practical, 2015-01-24T12:59:15Z pflanze: and still managing to do odd decisions (it also uses uncommon names for standard list functions) 2015-01-24T12:59:55Z pflanze: vanila, it is. Also, it doesn't analyze lifetimes of variables in lexical scopes, which is why one has to prune variables explicitely to prevent them from holding on to stream heads. 2015-01-24T13:00:17Z vanila: yikes ,t hats worse than I thought :O 2015-01-24T13:00:32Z vanila: well it seems to me then, using perl you should just write a program which does its thing and then ends 2015-01-24T13:00:38Z pflanze: Well, even some Scheme systems are getting that wrong I think. 2015-01-24T13:00:44Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:00:53Z vanila: so the memory space of the whole process is collected by the OS 2015-01-24T13:01:03Z vanila: you shouldn't a long running program in it 2015-01-24T13:01:15Z pflanze: Perl does give you the tools to prevent leaking. 2015-01-24T13:01:49Z pflanze: You can weaken references, and you can prune variables. Don't need more. Just some manual overhead. 2015-01-24T13:01:52Z vanila: it sounds too difficult to get right, you'd be better to use scheme or something with GC instead of refcounting. 2015-01-24T13:02:18Z pflanze: With some practice you get it right on first try. 2015-01-24T13:02:53Z wingo joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:03:26Z Soft- quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-24T13:05:31Z pflanze: Syntax and speed might be stronger arguments towards Scheme than the GC. 2015-01-24T13:06:11Z pflanze: (If you include macros in "syntax", then rather definitely.) 2015-01-24T13:08:05Z daviid joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:08:59Z zadock joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:20:39Z narendraj9 quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-01-24T13:23:45Z alezost joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:23:51Z enitiz joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:23:56Z alexei___ joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:25:45Z narendraj9 joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:32:42Z Bahman joined #scheme 2015-01-24T13:38:18Z alexei___ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 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2015-01-24T19:40:29Z jgrant is now known as xxjgrant 2015-01-24T19:41:09Z xxjgrant is now known as xxxjgrant 2015-01-24T19:42:58Z zachstone joined #scheme 2015-01-24T19:51:15Z snyp joined #scheme 2015-01-24T19:52:26Z snyp: How does call/cc's behaviour resemble a tree instead of block and return-from's stack? 2015-01-24T19:52:49Z vanila: i suppose thats because you can call a continuation multiple times 2015-01-24T19:52:50Z pjb: because you can call the continuation several times. 2015-01-24T19:54:12Z snyp: yeah.. but it still feels like a stack to me. you just 'unwind' back and go to a new subtree. 2015-01-24T19:55:06Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-24T19:55:10Z _5kg joined #scheme 2015-01-24T19:55:22Z vanila: yeah I think your view is better than 'tree' 2015-01-24T19:57:22Z snyp: Why?Because we must abandon the model of evaluation as a stack and adopt a tree instead. In effect, when continuations have a 2015-01-24T19:57:24Z snyp: dynamic extent,we can qualify them as escapes since their only goal is to escape from a computation. 2015-01-24T19:57:30Z snyp: The author says that 2015-01-24T19:58:13Z pjb: do you understand what is meant by dynamic extent? 2015-01-24T19:58:40Z snyp: not lexical extent? 2015-01-24T19:58:48Z pjb: yes. not lexical, dynamic. 2015-01-24T19:59:01Z pjb: The expression is perhaps too concise. 2015-01-24T19:59:23Z pjb: It means coarsely, that you return it from the function. 2015-01-24T19:59:45Z pjb: Imagine 4 functions that call one another: A -> B -> C -> D 2015-01-24T19:59:50Z snyp: ok 2015-01-24T20:00:02Z pjb: When you're in D, the stack contains the activation records of A,B,C and D. 2015-01-24T20:00:07Z snyp: yes 2015-01-24T20:00:10Z zachstone quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-24T20:00:25Z pjb: In D we create a continuation with call/cc, and return to C which returns to B. 2015-01-24T20:00:43Z snyp: ok 2015-01-24T20:01:11Z pjb: So now we have a stack containing (A B), since we're in B, but we have a continuation k that refers a stack containing (A B C D), since it was created, and might be called, to continue the computing from the point in D where it was created. 2015-01-24T20:01:26Z mdln joined #scheme 2015-01-24T20:01:43Z snyp: ooooh 2015-01-24T20:01:52Z pjb: If now B calls again C which calls D, and creates another continuation, we have (A B C₂ D₂) 2015-01-24T20:02:22Z pjb: notice of course that the parameters (the contents of the stack) will be different in general. 2015-01-24T20:03:29Z snyp: yeah... so there are multiple copies of the sequence of activation records. 2015-01-24T20:03:33Z pjb: k₁:(A B C₁ D₁) k₂:(A B C₂ D₂) if we don't duplicate the whole stack, we have a tree (A (B (C₁ (D₁)) (C₂ (D₂)))). 2015-01-24T20:03:40Z snyp: multiple sequences 2015-01-24T20:03:52Z pjb: For a given function, yes. 2015-01-24T20:04:29Z snyp: i see. 2015-01-24T20:04:40Z pjb: It's a little like recursivity, where there's a "circle" (A B R₁ R₂ R₃) 2015-01-24T20:05:17Z pjb: a given function can have several activation records active at the same time. But depending on the "call graph", it can be a simple stack or have to be a tree. 2015-01-24T20:05:37Z snyp: ah 2015-01-24T20:05:40Z zachstone joined #scheme 2015-01-24T20:05:52Z snyp: i sort of get it now. thanks pjb 2015-01-24T20:10:21Z pjb: so dynamic extent means that the concerned data lifespan is not liminted to the lexical scope, but extends outside of it, as long as there is some reference to that data returned and passed along or otherwise stored somewhere. 2015-01-24T20:12:34Z zadock quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-24T20:14:09Z snyp: i see 2015-01-24T20:14:54Z jumblerg joined #scheme 2015-01-24T20:32:23Z Soft joined #scheme 2015-01-24T20:37:51Z hiyosi quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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