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I thinkt hat would take a bit more than one week though 2015-01-18T04:52:42Z vanila: i don't know about a more cut down version, but as languages go its really really good in that respect 2015-01-18T04:53:42Z githogori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-18T04:54:21Z zacts: ok 2015-01-18T04:54:23Z zacts: cool 2015-01-18T04:54:57Z zacts: vanila: what would a scheme-like DSL be like? does SICP cover DSL's at all? (domain specific languages) 2015-01-18T04:55:07Z zacts: I'm kind of inching my way towards SICP 2015-01-18T04:55:23Z zacts: and is this book cool? http://cs.brown.edu/~sk/Publications/Books/ProgLangs/2007-04-26/ 2015-01-18T04:55:26Z zacts: PLAI 2015-01-18T04:55:34Z githogori joined #scheme 2015-01-18T04:55:44Z zacts: also could scheme be implemented in an alternate syntax? 2015-01-18T04:55:45Z maxigas joined #scheme 2015-01-18T04:56:01Z zacts: I'm thinking like a bit more syntax 2015-01-18T04:56:06Z vanila: in the final chapters of SICP they implement a scheme interpreter and compiler 2015-01-18T04:56:10Z zacts: oh yeah 2015-01-18T04:56:21Z vanila: its a really really cut down language, you can add to it of course 2015-01-18T04:56:29Z zacts: hum.. 2015-01-18T04:56:44Z vanila: oh yeah, I think a book by Shriram Krishnamurthi will be good! 2015-01-18T04:56:55Z vanila: ive not read that particular one though 2015-01-18T04:57:01Z fadein_ is now known as fadein 2015-01-18T04:57:30Z zacts: the only problem I have right now is that I lack the time to fully digest a reading of SICP. 2015-01-18T04:57:48Z zacts: huh cool 2015-01-18T04:58:00Z zacts: vanila: which books of Krishnamurthi have you read? 2015-01-18T04:58:04Z vanila: maybe you could just do bits of it or something 2015-01-18T04:58:10Z vanila: i mostly know him from his research 2015-01-18T04:58:19Z zacts: vanila: hum.. I guess I could try 2015-01-18T04:58:29Z zacts: I'm really interested in this idea of compilers / interpreters 2015-01-18T04:58:37Z zacts: let me share with you a link of what I'm doing now 2015-01-18T04:58:43Z vanila: me too! I've been studying it a bit recently 2015-01-18T04:58:47Z zacts: https://pragprog.com/book/tpdsl/language-implementation-patterns 2015-01-18T04:59:08Z zacts: ^ It's written by the guy who 'invented' antlr 2015-01-18T04:59:25Z vanila: antlr lol thats old school 2015-01-18T04:59:26Z zacts: and it has a recommendation by they python inventor rvg 2015-01-18T04:59:41Z zacts: I'm a total newbie for this kind of thing though 2015-01-18T04:59:41Z vanila: i mean this stuff has value but like 2015-01-18T04:59:48Z vanila: one really nice thing about lisp is you don't need to write a parser 2015-01-18T04:59:51Z vanila: you can just use s-expression 2015-01-18T04:59:58Z zacts: hum.. cool 2015-01-18T05:00:07Z zacts: I'm going to also make my own other languages too 2015-01-18T05:00:09Z githogori quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-18T05:00:10Z zacts: mini-languages 2015-01-18T05:00:18Z zacts: with non s-expression syntax 2015-01-18T05:00:29Z vanila: but yeah im not saying its not useful stuff, for something like that - it might be a great approach 2015-01-18T05:00:44Z zacts: coolio 2015-01-18T05:00:58Z zacts: well, I want to learn the scheme ways of thinking about this subject, along with other ways of thinking 2015-01-18T05:01:21Z zacts: vanila: so have you done actual research in this area? 2015-01-18T05:01:26Z zacts: or is it mainly a personal hobby? 2015-01-18T05:02:20Z githogori joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:02:49Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-18T05:03:16Z zacts: for me it's more of a hobby, but it may soon become a focal point for me 2015-01-18T05:03:34Z vanila: yeah me too 2015-01-18T05:05:06Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:08:48Z githogori quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2015-01-18T05:15:49Z excelsior joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:16:25Z joast joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:28:52Z maxigas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-18T05:29:21Z `nik`_ is now known as `nik` 2015-01-18T05:30:39Z maxigas joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:35:20Z daviid joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:39:52Z maxigas quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2015-01-18T05:45:10Z b4284 joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:45:30Z maxigas joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:47:09Z oldskirt quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-18T05:47:56Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:54:35Z zachstone joined #scheme 2015-01-18T05:55:31Z Shadox quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-18T05:56:01Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2015-01-18T05:58:59Z zachstone quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-18T06:00:44Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-01-18T15:04:33Z Isp-sec joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:08:37Z pjb: M-x scheme-mode RET C-h k M-q 2015-01-18T15:09:01Z pjb: + M-x ps-print-buffer RET 2015-01-18T15:18:02Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:18:08Z wasamasa: just indent the way emacs does 2015-01-18T15:20:39Z oldskirt_ quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-18T15:22:50Z slucxx quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-18T15:23:44Z AkashicLegend quit (Quit: AkashicLegend) 2015-01-18T15:25:57Z turtleman_ joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:26:39Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-18T15:27:10Z ijp joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:36:35Z daviid joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:37:55Z maxigas quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-18T15:38:35Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:44:07Z badkins joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:44:08Z maxigas joined #scheme 2015-01-18T15:49:27Z badkins quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2015-01-18T15:50:37Z kongtomorrow quit 2015-01-18T15:53:55Z monod joined #scheme 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sethalves: zacts -- maybe have a look at http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/scmindent/ 2015-01-18T16:37:03Z vanila: maybe you could write an elisp interpreter in vimcode 2015-01-18T16:37:09Z wasamasa: lol 2015-01-18T16:37:34Z zacts: sethalves: yeah I saw that 2015-01-18T16:39:35Z psy_ joined #scheme 2015-01-18T16:40:59Z zacts: wasamasa: tpope made a clojure-like interpreter in pure vimL 2015-01-18T16:41:12Z wasamasa: zacts: tpope is a crazy mofucker 2015-01-18T16:41:21Z zacts: yep 2015-01-18T16:41:25Z vanila: oh lol 2015-01-18T16:41:35Z wasamasa: he wrote that in the rationale section of it IIRC 2015-01-18T16:41:37Z vanila: i was about to hook you up with this guy I just talked to in another channel 2015-01-18T16:41:43Z vanila: who was implement some crazy stuff in vimL too 2015-01-18T16:41:53Z zacts: what were they working on? 2015-01-18T16:41:58Z vanila: uh but it was you :P 2015-01-18T16:42:04Z zacts: oh 2015-01-18T16:42:07Z zacts: :-D 2015-01-18T16:42:10Z wasamasa: vanila: who? 2015-01-18T16:42:25Z zacts: ME MY ME MINE ME 2015-01-18T16:42:38Z zacts: (define selfish-self 'ME) 2015-01-18T16:43:09Z fantazo quit (Quit: Verlassend) 2015-01-18T16:44:25Z Bahman joined #scheme 2015-01-18T16:45:19Z zacts: huh, doesn't the little schemer make a toy scheme interpreter also? 2015-01-18T16:45:44Z vanila: I didnt think little schemer was that advanced 2015-01-18T16:45:51Z zacts: vanila: I think they do 2015-01-18T16:45:57Z zacts: but it's a small subset 2015-01-18T16:46:05Z zacts: I almost got to that point in the book 2015-01-18T16:49:08Z vanila: http://ep.yimg.com/ty/cdn/paulgraham/jmc.lisp 2015-01-18T16:49:12Z vanila: this is pretty good 2015-01-18T16:49:13Z vanila: oh but 2015-01-18T16:49:18Z maxigas quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-18T16:49:19Z vanila: it requires a lot of lisp stuff 2015-01-18T16:49:22Z vanila: i don't know vimL 2015-01-18T16:49:31Z vanila: you might not be able to do it quite as metacircular 2015-01-18T16:49:34Z maxigas joined 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vanila: h 2015-01-18T17:53:50Z vanila: hi 2015-01-18T17:54:19Z mm_freak_: i'd like to try scheme as an sh replacement for some system parts, so i need an implementation with good systems support, in particular for linux-specific facilities (like namespaces) 2015-01-18T17:54:35Z vanila: ive nevr tried it but scsh might be really good for that 2015-01-18T17:56:07Z zadock joined #scheme 2015-01-18T17:56:13Z mm_freak_: that seems to be a shell 2015-01-18T17:57:25Z mm_freak_: sorry, i should have asked a question: is there a scheme implementation (ideally with both interpreter and compiler) that has good library support for linux systems programming, especially for the containers facilities of linux? 2015-01-18T17:57:27Z hellofun` joined #scheme 2015-01-18T17:58:00Z zadock quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-18T17:58:57Z hellofun` is now known as hellofunk` 2015-01-18T17:59:13Z wingo: i don't know of anything that supports containers out of the box 2015-01-18T17:59:35Z wingo: there might be an easy path to get there with chicken though 2015-01-18T17:59:42Z wingo: you might try asking in #chicken 2015-01-18T17:59:49Z hellofunk quit (Disconnected by services) 2015-01-18T17:59:52Z hellofunk` is now known as hellofunk 2015-01-18T18:00:24Z MichaelRaskin: Maybe Guix people hacked something for Guile 2015-01-18T18:00:38Z mm_freak_: yeah, after much research it basically comes down to bigloo, chicken and guile (also i've not ruled out SML instead of scheme) 2015-01-18T18:00:53Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: that's a great reference, thanks 2015-01-18T18:02:18Z vanila: wingo, I dont mean to bother you but I have a question about writing a scheme compiler? 2015-01-18T18:03:19Z wingo: MichaelRaskin: could be, #guix or #guile could be useful too 2015-01-18T18:03:33Z wingo: vanila: go ahead :) 2015-01-18T18:05:20Z vanila: thanks :) I was wondering how to do closures better than most general "allocate everything on the heap" and looked at orbit and matt mights stuff for CFA but it's too difficult.. I wonder what kind ways there are to do allocate them more efficently? 2015-01-18T18:05:35Z vanila: -do 2015-01-18T18:06:32Z wingo: have you seen the "optimizing closures in o(0) time" paper? 2015-01-18T18:06:45Z wingo: it's a good overview for common closure optimizations 2015-01-18T18:06:45Z booly-yam-9856_ joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:07:11Z MichaelRaskin: mm_freak: it was your post to nix-dev about functional service expression, right? 2015-01-18T18:07:21Z vanila: i will check it out I remember seeing it but I didn't read it yet 2015-01-18T18:07:33Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: it's related, but that i'm going to do with nix 2015-01-18T18:07:41Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: i'm really just looking for an sh replacement 2015-01-18T18:07:57Z MichaelRaskin: I also thought you were going to use nix there 2015-01-18T18:08:09Z vanila: would that be good enough to make a really basic self hosting compiler? when I tried before with no optimizations it was so slow it couldn't 2015-01-18T18:08:10Z MichaelRaskin: But you are not on #NixOS, decided to make sure it's you 2015-01-18T18:08:11Z mm_freak_: just throwing it out there, regarding vanila's question: i believe that even eagerly evaluated languages should be compiled with the STG strategy, but it has a learning curve 2015-01-18T18:09:09Z b4284 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2015-01-18T18:10:17Z MichaelRaskin: mm_freak: is there a repository anywhere to look at you current state of things with services? I thought about testing and maybe contributing 2015-01-18T18:10:26Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: i must say that the idea of using scheme for derivations is attractive, but i'd prefer to improve nix instead 2015-01-18T18:10:34Z vanila: isnt the STG for haskel? 2015-01-18T18:10:52Z vanila: im no sure what it means though? 2015-01-18T18:10:58Z MichaelRaskin: I used scsh at some moment, I think it hasn't got modern things like containers 2015-01-18T18:10:58Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2015-01-18T18:11:10Z MichaelRaskin: mm_freak: and a repository for your Nix work? 2015-01-18T18:11:11Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: not yet, because i'm still in early prototyping 2015-01-18T18:11:23Z booly-yam-9856_ quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-18T18:11:31Z mm_freak_: as soon as i can create a running container, i'll upload and share on nix-dev 2015-01-18T18:11:52Z MichaelRaskin: OK, in a sense, the thing _I_ run on my notebook is also in early prototyping 2015-01-18T18:11:53Z mm_freak_: vanila: STG is a generic alternative to call/return for garbage-collected languages 2015-01-18T18:11:56Z MichaelRaskin: But more stable 2015-01-18T18:12:02Z araujo joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:12:02Z araujo quit (Changing host) 2015-01-18T18:12:02Z araujo joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:12:18Z MichaelRaskin: I don't lack anything critical, just flexibility 2015-01-18T18:12:20Z vanila: interesting ok 2015-01-18T18:12:24Z booly-yam-4795 joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:13:06Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: the main idea is to remove names and introduce composition, but some parts are not that easy to implement with nix (because it lacks some syntactic constructs) 2015-01-18T18:13:35Z vanila: I was using closure conversion and CPS, but CPS really hurts 2015-01-18T18:13:37Z MichaelRaskin: mm_freak: care to join #nixos for that? 2015-01-18T18:14:14Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: not right now, because i really want to write code =) 2015-01-18T18:15:08Z mm_freak_: vanila: be aware that learning STG can take some time, but it pays off, and it also gives you efficient lazy evaluation, if you want it 2015-01-18T18:15:22Z vanila: I dont want it :D 2015-01-18T18:15:41Z MichaelRaskin: Efficient optional lazy evaluation is often nice 2015-01-18T18:15:52Z vanila: althouh... thats pretty interesting 2015-01-18T18:15:56Z vanila: can you actually mix lazy and strict together? 2015-01-18T18:16:00Z MichaelRaskin: Easily 2015-01-18T18:16:03Z vanila: that could be interseting 2015-01-18T18:16:29Z mm_freak_: vanila: from an implementation standpoint yes, but from a usability standpoint you should really not allow side effects in a lazily evaluated language 2015-01-18T18:16:35Z MichaelRaskin: Well, if you don't care at all about performance, (lazy ...) and (force ...) macros are very very easy 2015-01-18T18:16:39Z mm_freak_: even when it's an embedded language 2015-01-18T18:17:04Z ijp: delay, not lazy 2015-01-18T18:17:26Z MichaelRaskin: Well, true, delay is the correct name 2015-01-18T18:17:30Z ijp: lazy exists, but is slightly different to what you might think 2015-01-18T18:17:51Z MichaelRaskin: I guess it requires modification to the using operations 2015-01-18T18:18:03Z MichaelRaskin: So they can deal with both immediate and promised values 2015-01-18T18:18:09Z MichaelRaskin: As inputs 2015-01-18T18:19:04Z mm_freak_: if you assume the church-rosser theorem, it doesn't really matter: lazy x ≡ x, delay x ≡ x, force x ≡ x 2015-01-18T18:19:35Z mm_freak_: of course in a lazily evaluated language you can't assume it universally 2015-01-18T18:20:25Z mm_freak_: MichaelRaskin: if you would like to discuss this further, feel free to /query me 2015-01-18T18:21:09Z mm_freak_: at this point i have a rough idea and i'm striving for a working prototype 2015-01-18T18:21:35Z Steverman joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:21:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:21:59Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2015-01-18T18:21:59Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:25:57Z booly-yam-4795 quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-18T18:26:59Z alexei joined #scheme 2015-01-18T18:27:18Z fsckd: honest question, how is scsh a shell? i have to use rlwrap or similar with it. am i missing something? 2015-01-18T18:27:47Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-18T18:29:22Z fsckd: or... may be curses spoiled me and my expectations are too high :P 2015-01-18T18:31:08Z jumblerg quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. 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2015-01-18T19:30:42Z xyh: * look like 2015-01-18T19:30:57Z fsckd: nothing like sexp :P more like a unix shell with some differences 2015-01-18T19:32:44Z fsckd: i'm trying to find a link... there's a guide somewhere iirc 2015-01-18T19:32:59Z Steverman quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2015-01-18T19:33:08Z monod joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:34:02Z kongtomorrow quit 2015-01-18T19:36:03Z snits quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-18T19:37:02Z xyh: fsckd: no worry, if its syntax is just of sh (or C) family, then I can imagine it. 2015-01-18T19:37:14Z monod quit (Client Quit) 2015-01-18T19:38:32Z fsckd: xyh: i found it, it's called es, http://web.mit.edu/~yandros/doc/es-usenix-winter93.html 2015-01-18T19:38:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:38:55Z jeapostrophe quit (Changing host) 2015-01-18T19:38:55Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:40:14Z _5kg quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2015-01-18T19:42:08Z yrdz`` quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2015-01-18T19:42:23Z _5kg joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:43:43Z yrdz joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:43:45Z yrdz quit (Changing host) 2015-01-18T19:43:45Z yrdz joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:44:14Z xyh: fsckd: thx, it looks cool. 2015-01-18T19:46:29Z cleatoma quit (Quit: Leaving) 2015-01-18T19:47:47Z enitiz quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2015-01-18T19:48:44Z enitiz joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:49:11Z adu quit (Quit: adu) 2015-01-18T19:49:52Z fsckd: sadly it is not developed anymore. this seems to be the home page http://hawkwind.cs.toronto.edu:8001/mlists/es.html 2015-01-18T19:50:17Z MichaelRaskin quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2015-01-18T19:50:59Z badkins joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:53:02Z jlongster joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:53:46Z Steve` joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:56:05Z mdln quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2015-01-18T19:57:26Z mdln joined #scheme 2015-01-18T19:58:21Z xyh: fsckd: I had just try to compile it (fail, of course) 2015-01-18T20:00:15Z mxs_ joined #scheme 2015-01-18T20:01:39Z maxigas quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2015-01-18T20:02:58Z jlongster quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2015-01-18T20:05:11Z wasamasa: xyh: what the hell is that thing 2015-01-18T20:05:29Z wasamasa: xyh: it has .lisp files, but the commit message for half of them is "hi! firends in #scheme ^-^" 2015-01-18T20:08:49Z xyh: wasamasa: for I had just pushed it for fsckd 2015-01-18T20:09:15Z wasamasa: xyh: oh, that's yours? 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