2015-01-12T00:01:46Z offby1 used to work in the CAD business, lo these many years ago
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2015-01-12T00:14:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: offby1, it offers a mathematical creativity that also appeals to me in programming
2015-01-12T00:14:25Z Pixel_Outlaw: Kind of the intersection of math and art
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2015-01-12T00:22:14Z offby1: Pixel_Outlaw: then: http://blog.ninapaley.com/2014/12/02/more-single-line-art/
2015-01-12T00:23:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: wow!
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2015-01-12T03:19:23Z vanila: why do most modern languages reject TCO?
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2015-01-12T03:21:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: Probably some nonsense about recursion not belonging in corporate software.
2015-01-12T03:22:08Z vanila: haha
2015-01-12T03:22:18Z vanila: yea i guess its so annoying
2015-01-12T03:22:25Z vanila: im reading these go and dart guys "justifications" and its all BS
2015-01-12T03:23:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: Recursion is difficult for people to initially grasp. So I supposed that when you have new hires that google every line of code they write it becomes problematic for them to read the master programmers code. (if such programmers even exist in 9-5 jobs)
2015-01-12T03:24:44Z mikeyhc: the most common reason I hear is that it makes debugging harder, when a stack trace is produced on crash any optimized data is no longer available
2015-01-12T03:24:56Z vanila: yeah and thats BS isn't it?
2015-01-12T03:25:08Z mikeyhc: depends on the implementation, but most the time yes
2015-01-12T03:25:08Z turbofail: i mean that clearly applies to a normal loop too
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2015-01-12T03:25:34Z mikeyhc: I never said it was correct, just said it was the one I hear all the time
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2015-01-12T03:26:49Z offby1: Pixel_Outlaw: http://funcall.blogspot.com/2011/03/tail-recursion-and-debugging.html
2015-01-12T03:27:05Z vanila: yeah i read it a lot too
2015-01-12T03:28:08Z turbofail: it's probably the argument that makes the least sense is all i'm saying
2015-01-12T03:28:31Z vanila: none of it makes sense to me, it all seems to be post-decision rationalization
2015-01-12T03:28:38Z mikeyhc: yup, its mostly FUD
2015-01-12T03:28:51Z turbofail: some arguments that make a vague amount of sense are that it's basically the same as a goto, which is not something that should be encouraged
2015-01-12T03:29:02Z vanila: its nothing to do with goto D:
2015-01-12T03:29:10Z turbofail: no, it's exactly a goto
2015-01-12T03:29:25Z vanila: its a procedure call, not a goto
2015-01-12T03:29:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: Just remember that it will take the rest of the world another 10 to 15 years to catch up to a language that is like 50 years old.
2015-01-12T03:29:34Z turbofail: or that it may be hard for people to tell at first glance whether they've done the tail recursion properly
2015-01-12T03:29:45Z Pixel_Outlaw: They just discovered lambda functions, how darling.
2015-01-12T03:29:59Z vanila: yeah, it makes me really lose hope
2015-01-12T03:30:34Z Pixel_Outlaw: Maybe eventually we'll be able to store unlike things in the same container and check for them. aside from scripting languages
2015-01-12T03:30:50Z turbofail: vanila: you can take it up with olin shivers if you want, but using raw tail recursion basically offers the same control flow flexibility as goto
2015-01-12T03:31:17Z vanila: where does olin shivers say this?
2015-01-12T03:31:24Z turbofail: which is a good thing if you're a macro writer, but probably not the best thing for a person who's reading
2015-01-12T03:32:11Z turbofail: there's a video of him saying it in a talk about his hypothetical ideal loop macro
2015-01-12T03:32:37Z cojy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCzNwWmQdb0
2015-01-12T03:32:52Z turbofail: anyway even if he hadn't said it it would still be true
2015-01-12T03:33:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: Ideal LOOP macro? There is Land of Lisp which lays out the CL LOOP macro as a Periodic Table of Elements in frightening glory.
2015-01-12T03:33:27Z turbofail: it's not at all the same as the CL loop macro
2015-01-12T03:33:39Z turbofail: first of all it doesn't actually exist
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2015-01-12T03:33:56Z turbofail: second of all if it did it would have scoping rules that make some amount of sense
2015-01-12T03:35:26Z turbofail: well at least no implementation of it exists.  it may be possible to create one based on his paper, i haven't looked into it that closely
2015-01-12T03:35:53Z vanila: I think it would extremely hard :/
2015-01-12T03:36:03Z vanila: he says he implemented it with er-macros too, which si a horrible thing to deal with
2015-01-12T03:36:13Z vanila: someone should get the code off him
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2015-01-12T03:40:22Z turbofail: i happen to be a fan of racket's for-* iteration constructs, they're good enough for most purposes
2015-01-12T03:40:43Z cojy: turbofail: that's not an argument against proper tail calls though
2015-01-12T03:40:55Z cojy: it's only that some people dislike recursionf or loops
2015-01-12T03:41:08Z turbofail: i wasn't making an argument against having them, that discussion was like... minutes ago
2015-01-12T03:41:32Z turbofail: i was making an argument against olin shiver's loop
2015-01-12T03:42:03Z turbofail: unless you're talking about tail calls being gotos
2015-01-12T03:43:00Z turbofail: in which case, i don't agree with it, but it's still a better argument than the stack trace thing
2015-01-12T03:43:16Z cojy: how is it an argument?
2015-01-12T03:43:25Z turbofail: somebody might use it as an argument
2015-01-12T03:43:30Z cojy: procedure calls without proper implementation are still gotos
2015-01-12T03:43:36Z cojy: they just have a stack along with them
2015-01-12T03:45:03Z turbofail: it's only a reasonable argument in a language where you can't build higher-level iteration constructs on top of tail calls
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2015-01-12T04:08:32Z cojy: i don't think it's a good argument in any context. possibly a topic for a code style guideline of a particular orginization
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2015-01-12T04:13:06Z kongtomorrow: vanila: I don't know the argument for excluding as an optimization, but if you want to make it reliable part of the language, in many languages it's hard to make it clear what is and is not in tail position
2015-01-12T04:13:40Z kongtomorrow: for example C++ needing to run destructors
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2015-01-12T05:03:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: In scheme if you call the function twice in the body does it tail optimize both parts? For example if you made a fractal that branched two times at the end.
2015-01-12T05:03:42Z vanila: it cant tail optimize both
2015-01-12T05:04:00Z vanila: since it has to keep the continuation for the second call around
2015-01-12T05:04:15Z Pixel_Outlaw: I was thinking that...
2015-01-12T05:04:39Z Pixel_Outlaw: So I suppose it is sort of unsafe to make a very big Lindemayer tree via recursion.
2015-01-12T05:04:46Z vanila: but thats ok, you need some control structures around to keep the fractral stuff going
2015-01-12T05:05:06Z vanila: if you don't do it with recursion, then what? Just manage a stack manually - it will take up roughly the same amount of space
2015-01-12T05:05:10Z vanila: so its okay to do this with recursion
2015-01-12T05:06:19Z Pixel_Outlaw: The approach I've used in the past is to keep a snapshot of the last iteration, then apply the function to the last generation.
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2015-01-12T15:59:16Z vanila: does anyone have the Essence 2.0 source code? (An LR parser generator for Scheme)
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2015-01-12T21:48:36Z fantazo: it seems that most scheme systems correspond to R4RS or R5RS. newer seems to be lesser implemented
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2015-01-12T22:02:06Z technomancy: fantazo: R6RS was pretty controversial
2015-01-12T22:02:10Z technomancy: plus a lot more work to implement
2015-01-12T22:03:44Z fantazo: what was the controversity?
2015-01-12T22:04:20Z gnomon: Let's not go there today, shall we not?
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2015-01-12T22:06:25Z fantazo: ok, scheme essentially describes a list of different languages with partly shared feature sets.
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2015-01-12T22:11:13Z technomancy: depends on whether you're a platonist or not
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2015-01-12T22:13:25Z Riastradh: I'm more of a sculpyist myself.
2015-01-12T22:14:34Z ijp: my programming philosophy is mostly based on kierkegaard
2015-01-12T22:16:27Z mikeyhc: mine is closer to ubermensch
2015-01-12T22:17:01Z Riastradh: *squish*splort*
2015-01-12T22:17:01Z ijp: I bet nietzche goes down well on #lisp
2015-01-12T22:17:01Z gnomon: I think Scheme essentially describes a vector of different languages with partly shared feature sets.
2015-01-12T22:17:53Z technomancy: a platonist would say Scheme is one language, and there are a bunch of implementations imperfectly reflecting its pure form.
2015-01-12T22:18:00Z technomancy: which is bonkers, but hey
2015-01-12T22:23:17Z turbofail: what about a play-dohist?
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2015-01-12T22:34:59Z technomancy: huh, apparently Stroustrup claimed to be influenced by kierkegaard
2015-01-12T22:35:10Z technomancy: http://worrydream.com/quotes/#bjarne-stroustrup-interview-in-mit-tech-review
2015-01-12T22:35:11Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/jwanjq5
2015-01-12T22:37:26Z antoszka: Was Kierkegaard a misanthrope, too?
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