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2015-01-05T03:48:14Z unibovin: What happens if you only give one of the optional args? (lambda* (a b #:optional c d) ...)
2015-01-05T03:48:42Z unibovin: bound to c? Is it possible to bind to d?
2015-01-05T03:50:33Z unibovin: 189 in here
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2015-01-05T04:22:12Z technomancy: I'm working on an article about using microscheme for arduino-type stuff; anyone care to review it before I post it?
2015-01-05T04:24:57Z vanila: id like to read it!
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2015-01-05T04:35:26Z technomancy: please do let me know if you have any feedback: http://atreus.technomancy.us/firmware
2015-01-05T04:37:18Z vanila: you made a keyboard in scheme?? :D
2015-01-05T04:37:27Z technomancy: sort of!
2015-01-05T04:37:47Z technomancy: for day-to-day use I still use my C firmware; this is still experimental
2015-01-05T04:37:56Z technomancy: I used racket to design the circuit board for it though
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2015-01-05T04:38:32Z vanila: too cool! Is there a post about that?
2015-01-05T04:39:05Z technomancy: this post sorta talks about it http://technomancy.us/176
2015-01-05T04:39:34Z technomancy: mostly the racket code is just doing trig to rotate and place pads for the key switches and diodes
2015-01-05T04:39:42Z technomancy: but since the kicad format uses sexps it was actually pretty fun
2015-01-05T04:43:10Z vanila: this is the best thing ive seen :)
2015-01-05T04:43:16Z technomancy: haha, thanks
2015-01-05T04:43:21Z vanila: this so cool!
2015-01-05T04:43:25Z technomancy: quit my job a few weeks ago to start selling these =)
2015-01-05T04:43:55Z offby1 jerks awake
2015-01-05T04:43:58Z offby1: I didn't know that
2015-01-05T04:44:20Z technomancy: offby1: well, among other things
2015-01-05T04:44:40Z technomancy: offby1: http://technomancy.us/177 has the scoop
2015-01-05T04:45:08Z offby1: oh yeah, I read your blog
2015-01-05T04:45:18Z offby1: I've already gone through the searing envy
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2015-01-05T04:59:07Z technomancy: anyway I'm trying to decide if a fold is appropriate for scanning over the keys
2015-01-05T04:59:49Z offby1: I guess if "fold" is all you have ...
2015-01-05T05:00:07Z offby1: if you were using racket, of course, it'd be one of those iteration thingies -- for/list or perhaps for/keyboard
2015-01-05T05:00:14Z technomancy: heh
2015-01-05T05:00:16Z technomancy: well fold would be fine if I had curry
2015-01-05T05:00:26Z technomancy: but microscheme is pretty micro
2015-01-05T05:00:34Z offby1: Ham and eggs would be fine, if I had some ham, and if I had some eggs
2015-01-05T05:00:48Z technomancy: it doesn't even have apply, but I'm going to implement that before I get to the next installment in this series
2015-01-05T05:01:09Z offby1: how can a so-called scheme not have apply?!
2015-01-05T05:01:20Z technomancy: "subset of scheme" =)
2015-01-05T05:01:36Z vanila: yeah just had a look at microscheme compiler
2015-01-05T05:01:40Z vanila: pretty basic!
2015-01-05T05:01:51Z technomancy: it's some guy's masters thesis; only released a handful of weeks ago
2015-01-05T05:02:03Z technomancy: but it's better than anything else I've found for this chip
2015-01-05T05:02:04Z vanila: oh I better have a look at that
2015-01-05T05:02:21Z technomancy: (I tried to write a forth, but I couldn't make it fit in 2.5k of ram)
2015-01-05T05:03:04Z offby1: wow, your microscheme does?  OK, I take it all back
2015-01-05T05:03:14Z offby1: or are you compiling on a real computer?
2015-01-05T05:03:27Z technomancy: this is extremely micro
2015-01-05T05:03:32Z offby1: pico
2015-01-05T05:03:36Z technomancy: two point five killa bytes
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2015-01-05T05:16:46Z technomancy: cool... typing this on a fully microshemed firmware.
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2015-01-05T05:17:02Z technomancy: fully-microschemed
2015-01-05T05:17:09Z technomancy: also it has no modifiers yet
2015-01-05T05:17:55Z technomancy: no debouncing, no rollover, but it's a start
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2015-01-05T05:19:03Z technomancy: https://github.com/technomancy/menelaus/blob/master/menelaus.scm
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2015-01-05T05:41:50Z vanila: so microscheme
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2015-01-05T05:42:03Z vanila: it seems to compile a tail recursive loop into something pretty big/complex
2015-01-05T05:42:14Z vanila: involving shifting args down into the stack frame every iteration?
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2015-01-05T05:43:00Z vanila: of course it needs to have a good general strategy but it might be nice to have a special case for the example you gave where the loop as 0 args
2015-01-05T05:43:14Z technomancy: I haven't looked at the output at all, but the maintainer has been extremely responsive to bug reports and suggestions.
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2015-01-05T05:45:13Z technomancy: the status quo for software quality in arduino land is pretty low; I've been pleasantly surprised with everything I've seen with microscheme so far.
2015-01-05T05:45:19Z technomancy: but I don't know the first thing about assembly.
2015-01-05T05:45:54Z vanila: yeah I mean this is amazing, I love it:)
2015-01-05T05:46:03Z vanila: Just looking through his paper
2015-01-05T05:47:19Z technomancy: I heart it so
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2015-01-05T05:49:20Z technomancy: vanila: do you think my article does a decent job of explaining what's going on?
2015-01-05T05:50:26Z vanila: yeah I really liked that, Im not exactly a proof reader but nothing weird stuck out to me either
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2015-01-05T05:53:39Z technomancy: thanks
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2015-01-05T13:29:07Z jzp113: hi
2015-01-05T13:29:54Z taylanub: ho
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2015-01-05T13:32:11Z jzp113: 1 ]=> (define (f x y z)
2015-01-05T13:32:12Z jzp113:   (cond ((and (< x y) (< x z)) (+ y z))
2015-01-05T13:32:12Z jzp113: 	(else (cond ((< y z) (+ x z))
2015-01-05T13:32:12Z jzp113: 		    (else (+ x y))))))
2015-01-05T13:32:12Z jzp113: ;Value: f
2015-01-05T13:32:12Z jzp113: 1 ]=> f 0 1 2
2015-01-05T13:32:14Z jzp113: ;Value 12: #[compound-procedure 12 f]
2015-01-05T13:32:16Z jzp113: 1 ]=>
2015-01-05T13:32:20Z jzp113: ;Value: 0
2015-01-05T13:32:22Z jzp113: 1 ]=>
2015-01-05T13:32:24Z jzp113: ;Value: 1
2015-01-05T13:32:26Z jzp113: 1 ]=>
2015-01-05T13:32:28Z jzp113: ;Value: 2
2015-01-05T13:32:30Z jzp113: https://bpaste.net/show/6aa65865c91e
2015-01-05T13:32:32Z jzp113: sorry I forget
2015-01-05T13:32:57Z jzp113: why I can't get right answer?
2015-01-05T13:33:17Z taylanub: jzp113: please use a pastebin the next time, like paste.lisp.org
2015-01-05T13:33:22Z taylanub: oh you kind of did ...
2015-01-05T13:33:36Z jzp113: https://bpaste.net/show/6aa65865c91e  see it
2015-01-05T13:34:01Z ijp: f 0 1 2 is not a function call
2015-01-05T13:34:03Z taylanub: jzp113: function application is (function arg1 arg2 ...), with parentheses
2015-01-05T13:34:15Z taylanub: not like in Haskell and such
2015-01-05T13:34:29Z ijp: repeat until you remember: parentheses matter, parentheses matter, parentheses matter, parentheses matter
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2015-01-05T13:34:41Z jzp113: ok
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2015-01-05T13:35:25Z jzp113: I think it's a bad idea when you type the code in commend
2015-01-05T13:35:34Z ijp: btw, rather than (cond (a b) (else (cond (c d) (else e)))) you can do (cond (a b) (c d) (else e))
2015-01-05T13:36:15Z jzp113: it's so hard type
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2015-01-05T16:20:14Z technomancy: posted this yesterday, but https://lobste.rs/s/luicbo/using_microscheme_to_write_a_keyboard_controller_part_1
2015-01-05T16:20:23Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/p8wuzlx
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2015-01-05T16:22:47Z technomancy: I mean, I linked to the draft
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2015-01-05T19:45:02Z offby1: technomancy sure likes his Greek mythology
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2015-01-05T19:54:30Z turbofail: fortunately keyboard firmware probably doesn't need any memory allocation beyond the initial setup
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2015-01-05T20:07:39Z kuribas: Do there exist implementations for arbitrary precision floatingpoint numbers?
2015-01-05T20:08:49Z taylanub: kuribas: many Scheme platforms implement exact rational numbers, if that helps.
2015-01-05T20:09:07Z taylanub: they are not technically floating point, but can be thought of as infinite-precision "floats"
2015-01-05T20:10:33Z kuribas: taylanub: yes.  I was more thinking of floating point numbers with a fixed number of digits.
2015-01-05T20:11:00Z Riastradh: kuribas: http://www.mpfr.org/
2015-01-05T20:12:51Z kuribas: Riastradh: In particular, I wanted it to run on android.  I noticed a lack of a good numerical calculator on android (like gnu octave or julia), so I thought I could write something in scheme.
2015-01-05T20:13:08Z kuribas: So preferably no C libraries.
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2015-01-05T20:13:19Z Riastradh: http://www.galexander.org/software/soft84/?
2015-01-05T20:14:11Z Riastradh: No Scheme systems I know of provide arbitrary-precision floats; any that do I would expect to use mpfr for the purpose.
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2015-01-05T20:14:30Z kuribas: right.
2015-01-05T20:16:44Z kuribas: I used maxima, which works ok, but matrix syntax is cumbersome (Matrix([1, 2], [3, 4]
2015-01-05T20:16:58Z kuribas: ) instead of [1 2; 3 4]
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2015-01-05T20:18:10Z kuribas: But looking around on the internet, it seems scheme isn't so often used for numerical calculations.
2015-01-05T20:18:36Z kuribas: I only found an implementation of the fft in a mailing list post...
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2015-01-05T20:20:57Z Riastradh: Not much, no.  Brad Lucier does a lot of numerical analysis with Gambit; Gerry Sussman and Jack Wisdom do celestial mechanics with MIT Scheme; Jeff Siskind and Barak Pearlmutter do numerical optimization via automatic differentiation in sort-of Scheme.  But nothing is as widely used as, e.g., Matlab and Octave.
2015-01-05T20:23:05Z kuribas: Yeah.  Octave is great, but a pain to program.  Julia seems like a better octave for programming.  But unfortunately neither run on android.
2015-01-05T20:23:58Z Riastradh: Chances are mpfr really is your best bet for high-quality arbitrary-precision floating-point computation even on Android.
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2015-01-05T20:26:49Z kuribas: I'd prefer to avoid the ndk if I could.
2015-01-05T20:27:14Z Riastradh: (...I'd prefer to avoid the monstrosity of Java if I could...)
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2015-01-05T20:28:24Z kuribas: Riastradh: sure, but if I use kawa, I don't need to code any Java.
2015-01-05T20:28:37Z Riastradh: No, but you still need to interact with the whole Java world...
2015-01-05T20:34:15Z kuribas: Doesn't kawa hide most of it?
2015-01-05T20:35:22Z kuribas: Except UI API, which is written in java anyway.
2015-01-05T20:35:32Z kuribas: Being android...
2015-01-05T20:36:01Z Riastradh: I dunno, strikes me as unlikely.  Of course, one might not be able to avoid the Java world with the NDK either; I spent a few afternoons trying to figure out Android development and gave up in disgust at the whole thing.
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2015-01-05T20:51:35Z kuribas: I wonder how hard it would be to implement abitrary precision float using bigints.
2015-01-05T20:52:51Z kuribas: Since a float is just an int with an exponent
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2015-01-05T20:56:14Z kuribas: It would be easy for arithmetic, but implementing sin, exp, etc, would be harder.
2015-01-05T20:57:36Z kuribas: Luckily the algorithms are specied: http://www.mpfr.org/algo.html
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2015-01-05T21:11:30Z kongtomorrow: kuribas: usually a bigint just takes as much space as necessary for a precise representation, right?
2015-01-05T21:11:50Z kongtomorrow: kuribas: that impl is possible for the return from sin, since it'll usually be infinite non-repeating
2015-01-05T21:12:11Z kongtomorrow: s/possible/impossible/
2015-01-05T21:13:31Z kongtomorrow: so you could try to do something that lazily generated digits on command…
2015-01-05T21:13:38Z kuribas: kongtomorrow: I believe mpfr uses gmp bignums.  All the algorithms are here: http://www.mpfr.org/algorithms.pdf
2015-01-05T21:13:44Z kongtomorrow: …but it'd have to be smart enough to leave the sum of two such numbers lazy as well
2015-01-05T21:14:56Z kongtomorrow: kuribas: are you looking for user-specified precision, or perfect precision by expanding the amount of space required?
2015-01-05T21:15:04Z kuribas: use specified precision
2015-01-05T21:15:09Z kuribas: user
2015-01-05T21:15:10Z kongtomorrow: ah, ok.
2015-01-05T21:15:32Z Riastradh: kuribas: The basic principles are easy.  Implementing all the functions you want to implement with correct rounding to any precision takes a lot of hard work.
2015-01-05T21:15:36Z kuribas: It's about the same thing.
2015-01-05T21:16:28Z kuribas: Riastradh: yeah.  That paper looks pretty rigorous.
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2015-01-05T21:41:58Z fantazo: hi, why is it actually that scheme has a distinction between syntax and actual "procedures"? You could implement set! also as a procedure not syntax. What are the design consideration for doing this?
2015-01-05T21:43:01Z gnomon: fantazo, your stack of turtles have to stand on something.
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2015-01-05T21:44:24Z fantazo: gnomon, why not having s-expressions as the sole syntax construct? the rest are just procedures
2015-01-05T21:45:44Z fantazo: there must be a better reason for dividing syntax from runtime.
2015-01-05T21:46:28Z Riastradh: Enables understanding programs by reading them without having to run them.
2015-01-05T21:46:38Z gnomon: Riastradh, ooh, good one.
2015-01-05T21:46:53Z gnomon: Really, really good one.
2015-01-05T21:47:21Z fantazo: (define foo 1) is syntax, but you could have that too with having define as a procedure.
2015-01-05T21:47:51Z fantazo: (define 'foo 1) then
2015-01-05T21:50:44Z kuribas: fantazo: If set! where a procedure, what would be the types of it's arguments?
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2015-01-05T21:51:45Z fantazo: (set! symbol obj)?
2015-01-05T21:51:49Z Riastradh: fantazo: People tried that.  Turns out it leads to illegible, unmaintainable programs, and the alternative doesn't inhibit anything that's actually useful in practice.
2015-01-05T21:52:26Z Riastradh: The original Scheme had (aset 'foo 5) instead of (set! foo 5).  But then they realized every sensible program should really be using "aset'", like (aset' foo 5), and eventually actually changed it to (set! foo 5).
2015-01-05T21:52:54Z Riastradh: (`(aset' foo 5)' and `(aset 'foo 5)' are not actually different; the first is just a cute way to write it.)
2015-01-05T21:53:16Z kuribas: fantazo: If you change the scope, the symbol would refer to a different object, due to lexical scope.  So you don't have referential transparency.
2015-01-05T21:53:21Z fantazo: Riastradh, thanks.
2015-01-05T21:56:20Z kuribas: Also, variable assignment isn't a function in other programming languages.
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2015-01-05T21:57:19Z Riastradh: fantazo: To give a more concrete example:
2015-01-05T21:57:44Z Riastradh: Consider the program (let ((x 0)) (f) x).  You are guaranteed that this returns 0.
2015-01-05T21:58:01Z fantazo: kuribas, well in forth it is for example. It is a simple language, but I find that somehow "fancy".
2015-01-05T21:58:06Z Riastradh: This is a property that Scheme guarantees you.
2015-01-05T21:58:18Z Riastradh: The same is true of this program:
2015-01-05T21:58:22Z Riastradh: (let ((x 0)) (f 0) x)
2015-01-05T21:58:23Z Riastradh: And this one:
2015-01-05T21:58:25Z Riastradh: (let ((x 0)) (f 'x) x)
2015-01-05T21:58:36Z Riastradh: The last one is furthermore guaranteed to be equivalent to this one:
2015-01-05T21:58:40Z Riastradh: (let ((y 0)) (f 'y) y)
2015-01-05T21:58:43Z Riastradh: er
2015-01-05T21:58:44Z Riastradh: (let ((y 0)) (f 'x) y)
2015-01-05T21:59:08Z Riastradh: If, however, you had (define (f v) (set v 3)), and that worked as you proposed, then that would violate the guarantees I just described.
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2015-01-05T21:59:21Z kuribas: fantazo: I see.  I have just a very shallow knowledge of forth.
2015-01-05T21:59:57Z fantazo: everything is in forth just a procedure, no real syntax there.
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2015-01-05T22:00:48Z kuribas: fantazo: There are many advantage to referential transparency, as Riastradh showed.
2015-01-05T22:01:46Z kuribas: Languages that allow a lot of cool 'tricks' also allow for unreadable and hard to maintain programs.
2015-01-05T22:03:05Z fantazo: in that case it would just be a matter of more easy implementation I guess than "cool" tricks.
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2015-01-05T22:04:31Z kuribas: fantazo: Also, making variable accesable via symbols will make some optimizations impossible.
2015-01-05T22:05:38Z kuribas: Every procedure would need a map from symbol to variable locations at runtime.
2015-01-05T22:05:55Z fantazo: kuribas, sure. I guess that considerations are more of a matter of simplicity than performance.
2015-01-05T22:06:55Z Riastradh: `Make optimization impossible' is usually strongly correlated with `make it harder to understand and reason about'.
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2015-01-05T22:50:27Z fantazo: What is actually at the moment the really cool stuff going on in "scheme land" (tm)? I'm asking as I'm actually trying to do something in scheme after a long time of not doing anything in it.
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