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2014-12-24T00:14:22Z cky: Alestan: http://pasterack.org/pastes/10639
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2014-12-24T00:17:39Z Alestan: Um, I don't know what you want me to do with that?
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2014-12-24T00:19:55Z Alestan: cky:  I don't remember asking any questions here today, so I'm a bit lost.  If you mean it is something which doesn't work with my scheme interpreter, I haven't added with-syntax, so I can't say I'm surprised...
2014-12-24T00:22:23Z ijp: Alestan: if you have syntax-case, with-syntax is a pretty simple macro
2014-12-24T00:22:48Z Alestan: Aye, I already added let-syntax that way.
2014-12-24T00:23:26Z Alestan: I'm looking for with-syntax now; but I don't know why cky told me about that paste,
2014-12-24T00:25:34Z Alestan: Also, I need to add the syntax->datum and datum->syntax stuff; I think I can just expose the underlying symbol-lookup function I'm using for that, but I need to double check.
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2014-12-24T00:32:03Z Alestan: Well, I'm not making a lot of sense of this, I'm giving up for now, I'll add with-syntax later.
2014-12-24T00:32:35Z Alestan: Oh, one last thing, what are the [] for in racket?
2014-12-24T00:34:16Z ijp: same as (), but they are used in ceertain places by convention
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2014-12-24T00:46:18Z technomancy: is misusing [] in racket looked down upon in the same way as putting parens on their own line, or is it less heretical?
2014-12-24T00:46:52Z vanila: what do you mean misusing?
2014-12-24T00:47:22Z ijp: technomancy: if someone did (+ [* 3 x] [* 4 y]) it would raise *my* eyebrows at least
2014-12-24T00:47:36Z ijp: I don't know if there is an official position
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2014-12-24T00:48:58Z ijp: the non-normative appendix C in the r6rs says "Even though matched square brackets are synonymous with parentheses in the syntax, many programmers use square brackets only in a few select places. In particular, programmers should restrict use of square brackets to places in syntactic forms where two consecutive open parentheses would otherwise be common."
2014-12-24T00:50:28Z LeoNerd: typically (let ([one 1] [two 2] ...)
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2014-12-24T00:51:06Z ijp: it does go on to list the relevant forms in the report
2014-12-24T00:51:08Z vanila: I wouldn't cal that misusing, some purists might get annoyed about it but its quite normal
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2014-12-24T00:51:27Z ijp: it's not normal
2014-12-24T00:53:31Z Alestan: Okay, that's what I thought; similar to use of { and [ in mathematics simply to allow the viewer to see what's going on more easily.
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2014-12-24T00:55:01Z ijp: http://www.r6rs.org/final/html/r6rs-app/r6rs-app-Z-H-5.html#node_chap_C
2014-12-24T00:55:25Z vanila: ive started doing it myself
2014-12-24T00:55:33Z vanila: even though i was always "against" it ...
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2014-12-24T01:04:36Z Alestan: Hm, I'm not sure if I should make the parser try to handle it or not, I'm using the a[b] notation for python's __getitem__ function currently.  I don't know if I can get the tokenizer to handle it properly,  Looks like racket uses {} as well; I could easily add that.
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2014-12-24T01:11:32Z cky: Alestan: You wanted to know how to do syntax matching without having to actually create a macro.
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2014-12-24T01:14:24Z Alestan: Ah, I do remember that, that all makes sense then.
2014-12-24T01:15:29Z cky: :-D
2014-12-24T01:16:13Z cky: Alestan: `with-syntax` is a convenient macro that wraps `syntax-case`, so everything under the covers is a `syntax-case`.
2014-12-24T01:16:42Z cky: Which means, yes, you can use `syntax-case` to match syntax directly, without having to create a macro.
2014-12-24T01:18:47Z Alestan: Right, I think I see that with your example.
2014-12-24T01:19:08Z Alestan: How complex is implementing with-syntax with syntax-case?
2014-12-24T01:20:27Z ijp: like 6 lines
2014-12-24T01:21:37Z Alestan: I'm finding lots of examples using with-syntax...
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2014-12-24T01:22:09Z ijp: basically with-syntax is to syntax-case what let is to lambda
2014-12-24T01:22:27Z ijp: and is correspondingly simple to implement
2014-12-24T01:22:34Z Alestan: Ah, found it.
2014-12-24T01:24:04Z Alestan: I see what you mean.
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2014-12-24T01:30:04Z Alestan: Hm, my pattern matcher seems to have a problem...
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2014-12-24T01:30:28Z Alestan: Or not, racket chokes on it too.
2014-12-24T01:34:18Z Alestan: So back to trying to figure out how to write with-syntax...
2014-12-24T01:36:11Z ijp: I couldn't give you more hints without writing it for you
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2014-12-24T01:39:43Z Alestan: I'm aware of this, I'm just also tired.  I think I'll probably do it tomorrow when I can see straight.
2014-12-24T01:43:31Z xyh: vanila: https://www.refheap.com/95360
2014-12-24T01:43:35Z xyh: :)
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2014-12-24T01:44:15Z vanila: :)
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2014-12-24T01:53:25Z Alestan: Thanks for the help guys, I'm calling it a night.
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2014-12-24T06:17:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: Anyone know of a scheme that is like a single header file to embed into C++?
2014-12-24T06:20:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: C++ is such a detestable language that you must embed a smaller scripting language into it to get anything done with expression. -_-
2014-12-24T06:20:14Z vanila: that's a really cool idea but I dont know of one
2014-12-24T06:21:59Z adu: Pixel_Outlaw: you could probably just take guile.h thru gcc -E
2014-12-24T06:22:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: Most embeddable things I've found want to be compiled into a shared library and I'd rather just slam the header in.
2014-12-24T06:22:58Z adu: Pixel_Outlaw: Chibi is mostly headers
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2014-12-24T06:23:22Z adu: (and I mean that as a compliment, not as an insult)
2014-12-24T06:24:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'll have to check it out. Hopefully it garbage collects. :) I read somewhere that some do not.
2014-12-24T06:24:23Z adu: Chibi has GC and a VM iirc
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2014-12-24T06:24:55Z Pixel_Outlaw: Very cool! This may do what I need.
2014-12-24T06:25:15Z adu: You might also look at scheme->c
2014-12-24T06:25:45Z adu: it produces really ugly C code, but it works
2014-12-24T06:26:15Z adu: my scheme is not written in C, but if it were, I would totally plug it here
2014-12-24T06:27:31Z Pixel_Outlaw: It might be worth reading, I'm interested to see how you work around the typing system of C while not breaking anything. Probably void pointers I'd assume.
2014-12-24T06:27:59Z Pixel_Outlaw: CAR and CAR of each CONS being a void *.
2014-12-24T06:28:01Z vanila: in C i've used a tagged union to represent data
2014-12-24T06:28:38Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/117139
2014-12-24T06:28:50Z Pixel_Outlaw: I've tried a few times to do Scheme in C++ but in the end it is always a huge pain generating many switch cases for determining what a CONS is.
2014-12-24T06:29:08Z Pixel_Outlaw: Rather what the CAR and CDR types are.
2014-12-24T06:29:47Z adu: guile has an interesting way of doing it
2014-12-24T06:29:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: vanila, do you find yourself having to have a lot of case statements when using the flags?
2014-12-24T06:30:10Z vanila: not really
2014-12-24T06:30:16Z adu: vanila: are you following me?
2014-12-24T06:30:30Z vanila: adu, what do you mean?
2014-12-24T06:30:40Z adu: lol
2014-12-24T06:31:25Z adu: Pixel_Outlaw: I've never understood C++
2014-12-24T06:33:22Z adu: iirc, guile represents everything in 2 bits, with fine-grained distinctions in other bits
2014-12-24T06:34:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: adu, It is a very complex mess of a language IMHO with too many undefined rules and complexity that spirals out of the combination of low level memory manipulation coupled with a very complex class system.
2014-12-24T06:35:26Z Pixel_Outlaw: Now there are like 5 kinds of pointer.
2014-12-24T06:35:28Z Pixel_Outlaw: -_-;
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2014-12-24T06:36:39Z adu: I think I've gotten pretty far in my career without C++, whenever anyone asks me if I know C++, even for an interview at a company that uses only C++, I tell them that I know enough about the language to know that I don't want to.
2014-12-24T06:36:49Z Pixel_Outlaw: Amen to that.
2014-12-24T06:36:58Z Pixel_Outlaw: Then you say you like lisp and they think your a dinosaur.
2014-12-24T06:37:01Z Pixel_Outlaw: Annoying.
2014-12-24T06:37:16Z Pixel_Outlaw: *you're
2014-12-24T06:37:54Z adu: No, then I tell them I wrote a window system in javascript and a scheme in go, and then they look at me funny
2014-12-24T06:38:51Z Pixel_Outlaw: lol
2014-12-24T06:39:14Z Pixel_Outlaw: I don't know any of the web languages. Browsers proved too frustrating.
2014-12-24T06:39:27Z Pixel_Outlaw: Which HIGHLY limits my employment choices.
2014-12-24T06:39:41Z adu: The browsers aren't really the problem anymore, the new issue is discoverability
2014-12-24T06:40:27Z adu: there's like 5000 specifications that define what "the web" is, which browser feature are you going to use?
2014-12-24T06:40:36Z Pixel_Outlaw: Yeah...
2014-12-24T06:40:49Z adu: like to make a table
2014-12-24T06:40:55Z adu: you can use <table>
2014-12-24T06:41:02Z Pixel_Outlaw: I just don't like depending on a virtual machine (browser) to render my program if that makes sense. It is not a popular view that I hold.
2014-12-24T06:41:53Z adu: or divs+css, or divs+css3-grids, or svg, or mathml <malign>, or <canvas>, or WebGL, or flash...
2014-12-24T06:42:38Z adu: that's why <canvas> was invented
2014-12-24T06:43:54Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'm not a Luddite but as you say browsers are always changing standards.
2014-12-24T06:44:00Z Pixel_Outlaw: That is annoying.
2014-12-24T06:44:09Z adu: but they never delete them
2014-12-24T06:44:33Z adu: they recommend that people stop using them, but they never remove features
2014-12-24T06:44:49Z adu: there are rare exceptions, like WebGL is on the outs
2014-12-24T06:44:57Z Pixel_Outlaw: I'd really like the web to work in a single monolithic language that won't render if a page has non conforming errors in syntax.
2014-12-24T06:45:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: It just halts like a programming language.
2014-12-24T06:45:24Z adu: that sounds like a violation of net neutrality
2014-12-24T06:45:43Z Pixel_Outlaw: Well I don't like the HTML zombie that saunters on with missing limbs.
2014-12-24T06:46:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I can't say how many times firefox has not rendered a button or accepted a checkbox change when working with my bank page and router.
2014-12-24T06:46:18Z vanila: gopher is pretty awesome :)
2014-12-24T06:47:14Z adu: the point of HTML wasn't to filter out the soccer moms from the facebooks, it was designed to let anyone, even soccer moms, put up stories and pictures of their cat
2014-12-24T06:47:51Z adu: well, after the universities I guess
2014-12-24T06:49:17Z Pixel_Outlaw: I don't see how forcing them to learn proper formatting is a barrier.
2014-12-24T06:49:28Z adu: Pixel_Outlaw: if you want a super-strict browser, then I would recommend http://www.w3.org/Amaya/
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2014-12-24T06:49:54Z adu: it's also super-secure, because it doesn't support JavaScript
2014-12-24T06:51:16Z cojy: yea but what about ssl?
2014-12-24T06:52:05Z adu: cojy: pfft, who needs security when you're letting everyone in the world edit your website?
2014-12-24T06:52:21Z adu: I'm sorry, that was a joke
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2014-12-24T06:57:48Z Pixel_Outlaw: Droscheme your project adu?
2014-12-24T06:57:57Z adu: yes
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2014-12-24T06:58:52Z adu: I've been thinking of turning it into a compiler
2014-12-24T06:59:47Z Pixel_Outlaw: You're really into the webernets programming.
2014-12-24T06:59:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: Looking at your GitHub page.
2014-12-24T07:02:16Z adu: webernets... that's a new one
2014-12-24T07:03:22Z Pixel_Outlaw: Better than "information superhighway" recall that one?
2014-12-24T07:03:37Z Pixel_Outlaw has flashbacks of 5th grade
2014-12-24T07:04:07Z adu: My personal rule of thumb is I call whatever happens over port 80 and 443 "web", and everything else is "net"
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2014-12-24T07:06:09Z Pixel_Outlaw: I miss the little construction .gifs
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2014-12-24T07:07:18Z Pixel_Outlaw: http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/
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2014-12-24T07:10:08Z adu: http://www.cs.utah.edu/~gk/atwork/
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2014-12-24T07:13:18Z adu: I wonder what the first "construction icons considered harmful" article was
2014-12-24T07:17:53Z Pixel_Outlaw: This is probably the most icon
2014-12-24T07:17:56Z Pixel_Outlaw: ic for me http://www.textfiles.com/underconstruction/CapitolHillSenate7861construct.gif
2014-12-24T07:18:00Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/pw24oye
2014-12-24T07:19:09Z ASau: Yeah, in "web 2.0" everything is so much "under construction," that you no longer need stating it explicitly.
2014-12-24T07:19:51Z adu: however, the creativity that was once channeled into construction icons seems to be channeled into fail whales now
2014-12-24T07:19:58Z adu: i.e.: 404s
2014-12-24T07:20:07Z ASau: In fact, I start thinking that many people have lost their ability to create anything more or less finished.
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2014-12-24T07:20:40Z Pixel_Outlaw: And when it comes to programming nobody can seem to document their libraries either.
2014-12-24T07:20:43Z adu: maybe it's the MSG
2014-12-24T07:20:46Z Pixel_Outlaw: I think people are lazy in general.
2014-12-24T07:21:31Z adu: or maybe it's the hexafluorosilicic acid
2014-12-24T07:23:25Z ASau: Does the latter exist at all in any more or less stable form?
2014-12-24T07:23:41Z ASau: Silicon isn't that large to allow coordination number six.
2014-12-24T07:24:08Z ASau: At least it doesn't seem like that.
2014-12-24T07:25:04Z ASau: Hm.
2014-12-24T07:25:17Z ASau: Alright, it may be.
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2014-12-24T07:25:53Z ASau has had to recall Mendeleev's table.
2014-12-24T07:28:34Z adu: it's natural amount is 4, but there's an ionic bond with hydrogen that make it all work somehow...
2014-12-24T07:29:06Z adu: the only thing I remember from chemistry was playing with tinkertoys
2014-12-24T07:29:57Z ASau: I studied chemistry well enough.
2014-12-24T07:30:30Z ASau: If it exists, it isn't about "ionic bond."
2014-12-24T07:30:58Z adu: me: I made carbamide! teacher: go to the bathroom!
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2014-12-24T12:45:18Z haziz: How do you load a scheme file when using Geiser and Guile from within Emacs? For that matter how to do so with Geiser and Racket again within Emacs. I did search CTRL-h m with no clear answer.
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2014-12-24T12:57:32Z wasamasa: hmm, I thought the point of geiser was to make it just work for every scheme supported
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2014-12-24T17:01:38Z uber_hulk: Hi all. I have started with sicp so where can I run the procedures I write for the excercises?
2014-12-24T17:01:51Z uber_hulk: Also is it a bad idea to push my solutions on github?
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2014-12-24T17:02:07Z uber_hulk: I think they alreay have solution manual so it shouldn't be bad of idea?
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2014-12-24T17:06:12Z pjb: uber_hulk: you can use mit scheme.
2014-12-24T17:06:26Z uber_hulk: okay, googling
2014-12-24T17:07:19Z pjb: uber_hulk: I'd refrain to use github.COM for non COMmercial project.  You can push your solutions to some public repository, like hundreds of others have done. I don't know what this would bring. (But it's certainly a good idea to use git).
2014-12-24T17:07:36Z pjb: There's gitorious.ORG for non-COMmercial projects.
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2014-12-24T17:08:37Z uber_hulk: oho but there are many projects on github that are non-commercial
2014-12-24T17:08:54Z pjb: Yes, I don't understand those people.
2014-12-24T17:08:56Z uber_hulk: you mean I shouldn't post sth that is not open-source(that can't be used by others)?
2014-12-24T17:09:32Z pjb: Also, github is in the USA and gitorious is in Europe, so when the Internet fails, I can still use gitorious and not github :-)
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2014-12-24T17:09:59Z uber_hulk: Oho I see
2014-12-24T17:10:11Z pjb: uber_hulk: For your last question, you can do however you want, but you should clearly indicate the license under which you publish/distribute your code.
2014-12-24T17:10:36Z pjb: Otherwise, we have to assume it is fully proprietary, by default.
2014-12-24T17:11:03Z pjb: I use the Affero GNU Public License (version 3) by default, AGPL3.
2014-12-24T17:11:40Z pjb: github is not under that license. gitorious is, and therefore you can install your own gitorious server locally.
2014-12-24T17:12:26Z uber_hulk: I can use MIT licence I believe
2014-12-24T17:13:28Z pjb: Sure.
2014-12-24T17:14:00Z pjb: Do your landlord or your grocery let you use your house or eat tomatoes for free (under the MIT license)?
2014-12-24T17:14:15Z uber_hulk: Nope
2014-12-24T17:14:41Z pjb: Until they're enlighted and let you, and unless you're paid by your academia to write the software you write, I find it's morally better to use the GPL than MIT/BSD.
2014-12-24T17:15:12Z pjb: or until basic income is provided universaly.
2014-12-24T17:17:04Z pjb: That said, you can use the public exposure on github (or thru a blog) to motivate you to complete all the exercises of sicp.  If that's the reason, why not.
2014-12-24T17:17:16Z pjb: https://www.google.fr/search?q=sicp+solutions&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=1PSaVMzIDMz_aN3SgPAE
2014-12-24T17:17:16Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/ldngxgd
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2014-12-24T17:17:58Z uber_hulk: hmm
2014-12-24T17:19:35Z pjb: there even are solutions written in other languages, including C++ :-)  (of course, in C++ they reach a point where it's not practical anymore, notably in chapter 4).
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2014-12-24T17:21:54Z uber_hulk: I see. So, sicp is awesome to learn programming?
2014-12-24T17:22:03Z pjb: Yes, definitely.
2014-12-24T17:22:26Z pjb: Also, you may watch the videos at the same time, which makes it quite lively.
2014-12-24T17:22:54Z pjb: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY&list=PLE18841CABEA24090
2014-12-24T17:23:05Z uber_hulk: oho I wanted to know where do I see how they sync with the lessons in sicp book
2014-12-24T17:24:12Z uber_hulk: okay, on the ocw website they have headings for the vids
2014-12-24T17:24:18Z pjb: They don't sync perfectly, since the lecture were done based on a previous edition of the book, but as much as a normal teacher's book with his actual lectures.
2014-12-24T17:24:41Z pjb: It's the normal classroom experience :-)
2014-12-24T17:26:34Z uber_hulk: I see, also which excercises should I do?
2014-12-24T17:26:43Z uber_hulk: one from mit's site or from textbook
2014-12-24T17:29:14Z pjb: I would expect them to be the same, if you have the last edition of the book.
2014-12-24T17:30:35Z uber_hulk: I have the second edidtion
2014-12-24T17:30:44Z pjb: Should be good then.
2014-12-24T17:30:49Z uber_hulk: I see. thanks
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2014-12-24T17:38:28Z uber_hulk: not sure why this mit scheme is not running
2014-12-24T17:40:04Z uber_hulk: when I click it it will disappear quickly from the dock in osx
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2014-12-24T17:41:14Z pjb: mit-scheme is in debian and works well there.
2014-12-24T17:41:29Z uber_hulk: hmm, not sure why not working here
2014-12-24T17:41:30Z pjb: Oh, on OSX.  IIRC it uses X11.
2014-12-24T17:41:38Z pjb: You must have X11.app or XQuartz.app installed.
2014-12-24T17:42:00Z pjb: It comes with edwin, which is nice :-) (like emacs, but in scheme).
2014-12-24T17:42:44Z uber_hulk: I have emacs installed
2014-12-24T17:43:04Z pjb: Then, you could install macport (or perhaps brew?) and  use the mit-scheme from port.
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2014-12-24T17:43:50Z uber_hulk: i have X11 installed
2014-12-24T17:43:54Z pjb: https://www.macports.org/ # port install mit-scheme and then you can run mit-scheme in M-x shell or M-x run-scheme
2014-12-24T17:44:19Z uber_hulk: sorry?
2014-12-24T17:44:22Z pjb: Launch your X11 first, and then double-click /Application/MIT:GNU Scheme.app
2014-12-24T17:44:29Z uber_hulk: okay
2014-12-24T17:44:54Z pjb: with port, you may install a CLI version of mit-scheme, which can be used more easily in various circumstances than the GUI.
2014-12-24T17:44:56Z uber_hulk: okay, sth wrong with my x11
2014-12-24T17:45:10Z uber_hulk: I wanna go for port
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2014-12-24T17:45:48Z pjb: brew is often advised, but I prefer port, which has ports running also in old versions of MacOSX (notably on ppc).
2014-12-24T17:47:11Z uber_hulk: can I use brew?
2014-12-24T17:47:16Z uber_hulk: I have brew installed
2014-12-24T17:47:35Z pjb: Yes, try it. I don't know if mit-scheme is provided by brew, but if it is, good for you.
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2014-12-24T17:48:12Z uber_hulk: http://brewformulas.org/Mit-scheme
2014-12-24T17:48:17Z pjb: Great!
2014-12-24T17:49:00Z uber_hulk: need to install xquartz but thanks ;)
2014-12-24T17:49:24Z pjb: good.
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2014-12-24T22:42:59Z haziz: @pjb Your opinions on github, and free software are quite opinionated. Each person can do as he or she wishes after fully understanding the implications. Also the MIT license is free software (per the FSF itself) though by it's very permissive nature it does allow commercial use of the software if the person wishes. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
2014-12-24T22:44:16Z wasamasa: yup, to quote someone else on a similiar issue: "Again, Clang is free software, even by the FSF’s own standards. It’s just too free for Emacs…"
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2014-12-24T22:44:44Z wasamasa: bsd is free, just too free for the people we're speaking of :P
2014-12-24T22:46:51Z wasamasa: then, people can do as they wish without fully understanding the implications
2014-12-24T22:47:59Z wasamasa: otherwise there wouldn't have been such a scene for instance: https://github.com/threedaymonk/text/issues/21#issuecomment-67752327
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2014-12-24T22:59:17Z haziz: I asked this earlier but with no clear answer: How do you load a scheme file when using Geiser and Guile from within Emacs? For that matter how to do so with Geiser and Racket again within Emacs. I did search "CTRL-h m" at least for guile and geiser with no clear answer.
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2014-12-24T23:10:34Z pjb: haziz: my point is that people, notably newbie, choose MIT/BSD by mimetism, without thinking about or having any full understanding of the implications.
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2014-12-24T23:11:41Z pjb: haziz: the different free software licences have different political implications, and this is a dimension you have to take into account.  For example, you can't complain about unemployment or taxes, and still put your money in a bank.
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