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2014-12-20T00:08:22Z tadni_: wasamasa: The problem is, that I scrappped my essay length'd Enlisting Elisp intro ...and I can't salvage any of that. Also, I'm structuring it, so I can go and have a weekly doodle project page, and have obsessive mesauring and analysis of health metrics.
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2014-12-20T00:08:42Z wasamasa: tadni_: lol
2014-12-20T00:09:08Z wasamasa: tadni_: that sounds a bit ridiculous to me considering how much ideas I've noted for my future blog if there will be any
2014-12-20T00:12:39Z tadni_: wasamasa: Well, my "SOME SICP 00: Intro" has been fun thusfar to write. Because I'm being purposely overdramatic and sappy, to lure people in. Like absurdly so.
2014-12-20T00:14:35Z tadni_: I've tried the whole "blog thing" probably like 3 times prior, and it never really stuck. It always felt like a burden and I was just forcing myself because I felt I had to. This is the first time I've been relatively proud and excited for such a thing.
2014-12-20T00:14:42Z tadni_: Which I think is a very good sign.
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2014-12-20T00:30:59Z Alestan: Well, I think I am going to abandon the RPython attempt, too much to have to try to do to make it work.  With pypy, factorial(10000) executes in 1.8 seconds, with CPython it executes in 3.8 seconds and racket can run it in 0.24 seconds, so it is more or less in line with the relative speed of python to C,
2014-12-20T00:33:59Z wasamasa: ok
2014-12-20T00:35:45Z Alestan: If it was easier to port only part of it to rpython, it'd probably be worth it, which is why I did port the main loop and the symbol lookup to cython, which got about a 2x speed increase for the factorial example and about a 10x speed increase in the symbol-resolution time.
2014-12-20T00:40:29Z Alestan: How widely used is guile?
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2014-12-20T00:52:22Z tadni_: Alestan: Uh, in what realm?
2014-12-20T00:52:33Z tadni_: Just in terms of Scheme?
2014-12-20T00:53:37Z Alestan: Yeah.
2014-12-20T00:54:07Z Alestan: Most of the time when I ask questions I get pointed at racket, and I've been using racket for testing code, to make sure my interpreter produces the same output
2014-12-20T00:54:21Z Alestan: But I started with guile, until I kept getting pointed at racket.
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2014-12-20T00:58:25Z tadni_: I mean, they are kinda aiming at different markets. Racket is trying to be a mostly platform independent, general-purpose Proglang. Guile, is billed as "The GNU Operating System's Scripting language". And while I've seen it being used it different spots outside of this realm, like say Sly, ovrewhellmingly the focus does seem very GNU orriented.
2014-12-20T00:58:58Z technomancy: I feel like either chicken or guile is the next-biggest after racket, but I don't know if that's accurate or just my own gut
2014-12-20T00:59:54Z tadni_: technomancy: Yeah, I don't think anyone would question Racket is the big dog right now. There are a lot contending for that Aprox second-tier spot though, from what I can tell.
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2014-12-20T01:00:26Z tadni_: Chicken and Guile are certainly up there, somewhere.
2014-12-20T01:01:04Z taylanub: big in terms of community?  Chicken probably has an edge over Guile on that, and some ostensibly obscure implementations might actually have as much popularity.  but I'm only judging from IRC channels...
2014-12-20T01:02:04Z tadni_: taylanub: Nah, Guile's community is relatively small ... but then again, from everyone I've talked to, Guile sucked really bad prior to 2.x.
2014-12-20T01:03:31Z tadni_: So it's only had like 3 years, to start luring the non-hardcore people into this realm. I've not had a lot of experience with any Scheme communities, but those I see as regulars in Guile-circles, seem to be pretty dedicated to it all.
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2014-12-20T01:04:15Z technomancy: guile probably seems bigger than it is because wingo is such a great blogger =)
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2014-12-20T01:05:03Z tadni_: I think the enthusiasm in the Guile community, for how small it is in reality, has been a driving factor for me being so drawn to it.
2014-12-20T01:05:43Z tadni_: People with big aspirations, but a fairly small community, and are actively working towards what they see is improvement.
2014-12-20T01:06:21Z tadni_: I don't know if a Guile based Emacs really would be better in the Long-run, but it amazes me that we have a guy that will work on it year after year.
2014-12-20T01:07:18Z tadni_: I don't know if a Guile based Next-gen packagemanager and init-system will help unite GNU until a more unified project, but the fact that people are working in that direction -- actively, amazes me.
2014-12-20T01:07:43Z Alestan: I suppose that makes sense.
2014-12-20T01:08:36Z tadni_: Racket of course is doing a lot of cool stuff, there is a lot of enthusiasm there too obviously, and the crowd is a lot bigger -- they just aren't doing anything in mass, directly relevant to my interests.
2014-12-20T01:09:48Z tadni_: Alestan: All and all, you are probably good on Racket. I see no real valid complaints for it as a general-purpose lang.
2014-12-20T01:09:59Z tadni_: But let's be clear, I'm an idiot.
2014-12-20T01:10:15Z tadni_: And idiot who it aware they are an idiot, is still an idiot.
2014-12-20T01:10:15Z technomancy: me too
2014-12-20T01:10:39Z technomancy: I'd probably be more attracted to guile if I hacked on software written in C
2014-12-20T01:10:45Z technomancy: embedding isn't really a big draw to me
2014-12-20T01:10:48Z tadni_: technomancy: Yeah, but you've done stuff of worth that gives you credibility in this general circle. That's the rub.
2014-12-20T01:10:52Z technomancy: other than "embedded" and for that I have microscheme.
2014-12-20T01:11:14Z tadni_: I've made a few trivial patches to Guix, I have a few I still need to push to Stumpwm and Lispkit.
2014-12-20T01:11:37Z tadni_: That's about my extend of actual contributions to any actual Lisp software, that's not a stupid little hobby project. :^P
2014-12-20T01:11:44Z Alestan: What specifically drew me to racket was the macro-stepper stuff to walk through the expansions a step at a time,
2014-12-20T01:13:28Z technomancy: drracket is a big draw for me even though I use emacs because I'd like to teach it to my kids.
2014-12-20T01:13:55Z tadni_ really wanted to like Dr.Racket, but Emacs has corrupted me.
2014-12-20T01:14:06Z tadni_: It was actually painful, as dramatic as it sounds.
2014-12-20T01:14:18Z technomancy: it's great for introducing programming to someone who has a low BS tolerance
2014-12-20T01:14:27Z technomancy: or a low attention span, like my six-year-old
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2014-12-20T01:14:52Z tadni_: I went to that first Racket Meetup for STL ... and they didn't even use f5 to re-eval. They manually pressed the button each time, drove me nuts.
2014-12-20T01:15:03Z tadni_: Finally at the end of the session, I mentioned it.
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2014-12-20T01:15:46Z tadni_: technomancy: It still amazes me that we don't have a video-game that teaches basic programming, graphically yet.
2014-12-20T01:15:53Z tadni_: Or at least that I'm aware.
2014-12-20T01:16:04Z tadni_: If done right, that really is a million dollar idea.
2014-12-20T01:16:11Z Alestan: There is one,
2014-12-20T01:16:22Z tadni_: Alestan: Name/link?
2014-12-20T01:16:30Z Alestan: comes preloaded on the raspberry PIs, I don't remember the name.
2014-12-20T01:17:06Z tadni_: Alestan: Is it just a whole bunch of tiny compunded tasks, or is there a story?
2014-12-20T01:17:27Z ijp: maybe because that video game would suck really bad
2014-12-20T01:17:34Z technomancy: I saw a kickstarter video for one a few months ago
2014-12-20T01:18:03Z ijp: it would be like codecademy, but with a really bad plot
2014-12-20T01:18:07Z tadni_: I want a "You wake up in a jail cell, but they forget to strip you of xyz, so you have to write a random number generator for the combination" or something.
2014-12-20T01:18:44Z tadni_: ijp: Nah, I think it could be done. Educational videogames is something that died right before y2k in mass.
2014-12-20T01:19:09Z Alestan: I believe it is a bunch of little things, I believe they're using Scratch for it.
2014-12-20T01:19:16Z tadni_: I'm not sure why either, I'm sure that medium could be useful for a lot of skills and/or general knowledge.
2014-12-20T01:19:36Z tadni_: Alestan: Eh and eh. :^P
2014-12-20T01:20:50Z Alestan: And I don't actually use DrRacket, I just call (expand/step ...) when I want to step through a macro expansion.
2014-12-20T01:21:38Z Alestan: I've been using pycharm, since I'm using it for the python code and it does okay syntax highlighting and paren matching for scheme.
2014-12-20T01:22:11Z ijp: tadni_: I'm sure in some universe gamification works, but it usually just leaeds to a bad game
2014-12-20T01:23:14Z tadni_: ijp: In this universe, gamification works. It's just hard to do and there's not been a ton of money funneled into it historically.
2014-12-20T01:26:24Z tadni_: There's a lot of money getting thrown into reward-based-online-education-styled gamification now though, which makes me hopeful that relevant source material might get proper video games at some point in the not-so distant future.
2014-12-20T01:27:34Z Alestan: My usual method for helping people learn programming is task-automation in games.
2014-12-20T01:28:32Z ijp: heh, the irony
2014-12-20T01:28:54Z Alestan: I used to always point people at crossfire, and it still is a good choice for learning arbitrary languages (all script interface is simply through stdin and stdout), but minecraft's computercraft mod or redpower2 are pretty neat for learning lua and assembly/C/fourth respectively
2014-12-20T01:29:07Z technomancy: oh dang, there's a forth mod?
2014-12-20T01:29:24Z Alestan: redpower2 hasn't been updated in a while, and probably won't be,
2014-12-20T01:29:40Z technomancy: I remember the situation for installing mods was pretty grim last I checked
2014-12-20T01:29:44Z technomancy: just a total mess
2014-12-20T01:29:55Z Alestan: it runs on 1.5.2 I think, and has a computer which is an emulated cc65 basically.
2014-12-20T01:29:59Z technomancy: how is there no scheme mod anyway?
2014-12-20T01:30:24Z Alestan: Forge mods are trivial, simply run the game once, then run the forge installer, then copy the mod you want to .minecraft/mods
2014-12-20T01:30:41Z technomancy: I don't know if that was around last I checked
2014-12-20T01:31:01Z Alestan: It probably was, but it only got pretty well ubiquitous with the last couple versions.
2014-12-20T01:31:32Z Alestan: The emulated comodore comes preloaded with an OS implemented in forth and one implemented in basic,
2014-12-20T01:32:12Z Alestan: there was a community project to provide a simple C runtime by using the comodore cc65 C compiler, which worked pretty well, once you get used to 16bit computing.
2014-12-20T01:32:35Z Alestan: And in all of it, you can get real-time feedback to see that what you are doing is working (turning on lights and what not)
2014-12-20T01:33:11Z Alestan: I usually use computercraft's stuff, which is implemented in lua.  I have a translator that will let you write code in python or javascript and translate it to lua to run on the cc computers.
2014-12-20T01:34:26Z Alestan: (No, my scheme implementation don't port well; even if it did, it'd be too slow), but there is a project that implements a tiny scheme in lua, which does work with CC.
2014-12-20T01:41:52Z Alestan: Anyway, crossfire's the one that lets you use any language to write scripts for your character.  Things like automatically eating when you are hungry or healing as needed and the like.
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2014-12-20T02:56:09Z Alestan: So why does syntax-case have to be wrapped in a lambda?
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2014-12-20T02:57:44Z ijp: Alestan: the key idea of the syntax-case system is not the syntax-case form, but that macros are functions from syntax objects to syntax objects
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2014-12-20T02:58:21Z ijp: syntax-case is just a nice pattern matching form for syntax objects
2014-12-20T02:58:55Z ijp: so this way, you can use it in other functions, not just in define-syntax/let[rec]-syntax
2014-12-20T03:00:43Z Alestan: Could you also then use a different function that takes syntax as its input and returns syntax?  Something like (define-syntax (lambda (x) #'(+ 1 2)))?
2014-12-20T03:00:50Z ijp: sure
2014-12-20T03:01:24Z offby1: Alestan: did you read "Fear of Macros" like I tole ya to?
2014-12-20T03:01:25Z ijp: you could do it slightly differently, and have syntax-case returns a function, but for uses outside of (define-syntax foo (syntax-case ...)) it would look kind of weird
2014-12-20T03:01:47Z offby1: oh yeah, you said you did
2014-12-20T03:01:49Z ijp: ((syntax-case blah) frotz)
2014-12-20T03:01:50Z offby1: nevah moind
2014-12-20T03:02:05Z Alestan: I did, but at the time I was focusing on the pattern matching.
2014-12-20T03:05:48Z Alestan: So, when I have something like (define-syntax when (lambda (x) (syntax-case x () ((when test e e* ...) #'code), why is the x needed in syntax-case?  I assume it is so that you could do things like (lambda (x) (lambda (y) (syntax-case x ...?
2014-12-20T03:06:20Z ijp: the x is the syntax object
2014-12-20T03:06:33Z Alestan: Right.
2014-12-20T03:08:08Z ijp: if you noticed certain patterns in the way you manipulate syntax objects, you could write plain functions that used syntax-case on that object
2014-12-20T03:08:54Z Alestan: I am trying to understand the difference between syntax-case and syntax-rules.  syntax-rules doesn't explicitly reference the syntax-object, but it also is far more restricted, so I suppose my question could just as easily be why syntax-rules doesn't explicitly have a syntax-object passed to it.
2014-12-20T03:09:21Z ijp: well, syntax rules isn't as generally useful
2014-12-20T03:09:51Z ijp: it's only meant for use in define-syntax and let[rec]-syntax
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2014-12-20T03:10:43Z ijp: that, and backwards compatibility
2014-12-20T03:11:19Z ijp: you might be able to do the trick mentioned above, hmm
2014-12-20T03:11:24Z ijp: rudybot: init racket
2014-12-20T03:11:24Z rudybot: ijp: your sandbox is ready
2014-12-20T03:11:25Z Alestan: I think it suddenly all makes sense...
2014-12-20T03:11:36Z Alestan: And yeah, it should work...
2014-12-20T03:11:45Z ijp: rudybot: ((syntax-rules () (_ () "foo")) 3)
2014-12-20T03:11:45Z rudybot: ijp: error: eval:1:1: syntax-rules: bad syntax <NEWLINE>   in: (syntax-rules () (_ () "foo"))
2014-12-20T03:11:56Z ijp: rudybot: ((syntax-rules () ((_ ()) "foo")) 3)
2014-12-20T03:11:56Z rudybot: ijp: error: ?: bad syntax <NEWLINE>   in: 3
2014-12-20T03:12:00Z ijp: rudybot: ((syntax-rules () ((_ ()) "foo")) #'3)
2014-12-20T03:12:00Z rudybot: ijp: error: eval:1:36: ?: bad syntax <NEWLINE>   in: 3
2014-12-20T03:12:22Z ijp: I'm a complete idiot
2014-12-20T03:12:28Z ijp: ((syntax-rules () ((_ x) "foo")) #'3)
2014-12-20T03:12:33Z ijp: rudybot: ((syntax-rules () ((_ x) "foo")) #'3)
2014-12-20T03:12:33Z rudybot: ijp: error: eval:1:35: ?: bad syntax <NEWLINE>   in: 3
2014-12-20T03:13:05Z ijp tries in a different implementation
2014-12-20T03:13:14Z Alestan: So I was operating under the assumption that syntax-case and syntax-rules both return a procedure that gets bound to something in the macro table, but syntax-rules returns a procedure, syntax-case instantly returns syntax.
2014-12-20T03:14:08Z Alestan: rudybot: ((syntax-rules () ((_ x) "foo")) #'(_ 4))
2014-12-20T03:14:09Z rudybot: Alestan: your sandbox is ready
2014-12-20T03:14:09Z rudybot: Alestan: ; Value: #<syntax:1:35 "foo">
2014-12-20T03:14:27Z ijp: oh right, duh
2014-12-20T03:14:28Z Alestan: Helps if the syntax you pass it matches one of the patterns :)
2014-12-20T03:14:41Z ijp: it's 3am, I'm tired
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2014-12-20T03:16:21Z ijp: Alestan: anyway, the two real differences between syntax-case and syntax-rules is that the latter returns a procedure (and so doesn't take the argument), and it wraps the output in (syntax ...)
2014-12-20T03:17:16Z ijp: well, and there are also no fenders in syntax-rules
2014-12-20T03:17:24Z Alestan: Right, because the returned-procedure is what is passed the argument, which is a detail hidden from us in racket
2014-12-20T03:18:33Z Alestan: Hm, so that gives me something else to add, ((syntax-rules () ((_ x) "foo")) (syntax (_ 4)) ) fails in my scheme implementation.
2014-12-20T03:18:33Z Alestan:  
2014-12-20T03:20:57Z Alestan: There, now it works.
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2014-12-20T03:24:38Z Alestan: Oh, and the other half of the dynamic invocation of syntax transformers:
2014-12-20T03:24:39Z Alestan: rudybot: (syntax-case #'(tst) () ((_) #'(+ 1 2)))
2014-12-20T03:24:39Z rudybot: Alestan: ; Value: #<syntax:1:31 (+ 1 2)>
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2014-12-20T09:56:42Z Alestan: Sweet, syntax-case is working, as is define-syntax; now I just need to add #' and #` to the parser and implement the logic for quasi-syntax
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2014-12-20T10:02:14Z ecraven: Alestan: congratulations :)
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2014-12-20T10:56:00Z Technodrome: Good day
2014-12-20T10:56:07Z Technodrome: whats the difference between let and letrec?
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2014-12-20T11:03:52Z Oejet: Technodrome: Page 16 of R7RS (http://trac.sacrideo.us/wg/raw-attachment/wiki/WikiStart/r7rs.pdf), or http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/let.html.
2014-12-20T11:05:56Z Oejet: Technodrome: Basically it's about the order with which expressions are evaluated, and variables are bound to the values of those expressions.
2014-12-20T11:06:35Z Technodrome: yeah, I’m just trying to get a grasp of scheme properly
2014-12-20T11:06:55Z Technodrome: yesterday I wasn’t really seeing the difference between define and let for binding values to an id
2014-12-20T11:12:27Z Oejet: I think the difference is only relevant when binding variables to functions.
2014-12-20T11:12:40Z Oejet: > (let ((f (lambda (x) (if (= x 0) 1 (+ (f (- x 1)) 1))))) (f 5))
2014-12-20T11:12:40Z Oejet: f: undefined;
2014-12-20T11:12:40Z Oejet:  cannot reference an identifier before its definition
2014-12-20T11:13:33Z Oejet: Here `f` cannot be called recursively, because it's not yet in the environment. That's what letrec is for:
2014-12-20T11:14:00Z Oejet: > (letrec ((f (lambda (x) (if (= x 0) 1 (+ (f (- x 1)) 1))))) (f 5))
2014-12-20T11:14:00Z Oejet: 6
2014-12-20T11:25:07Z Technodrome: so letrec just allow the let function to be recursive pretty much?
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2014-12-20T11:26:04Z Oejet: Yes.
2014-12-20T11:26:40Z Oejet: And mutually recursive within the same letrec.
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2014-12-20T13:46:49Z wasamasa: hum
2014-12-20T13:47:24Z wasamasa: a friend once told me how he bought "Land of Lisp" to learn CL, but has been convinced to go for scheme since he really didn't like the teaching style of its author
2014-12-20T13:47:42Z wasamasa: now I've found out that it's author wrote "Realm of Racket" together with someone else and is using the same examples
2014-12-20T13:47:44Z wasamasa: that's funny
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2014-12-20T14:12:54Z pjb: wasamasa: indeed.
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2014-12-20T14:18:48Z wasamasa: at least the writing improved
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