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2014-12-12T13:32:56Z BW^-: continuations all over the place !!!!!!
2014-12-12T13:33:01Z BW^-: all your continuations belong to us !!
2014-12-12T13:33:11Z BW^-: :}
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2014-12-12T21:24:50Z Alestan: So I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how all the various syntax extensions work (syntax-case define-syntax let-syntax et cetera), is there some place that has a good intro to them, preferably with a table or something to compare which does what?
2014-12-12T21:25:04Z offby1: Alestan: behold
2014-12-12T21:25:05Z offby1: rudybot: fom
2014-12-12T21:25:06Z rudybot: *offby1: http://www.greghendershott.com/fear-of-macros/
2014-12-12T21:25:23Z Riastradh: Define-syntax is what you use to name a macro globally.
2014-12-12T21:25:31Z Riastradh: Let-syntax is what you use to name a macro locally, like let.
2014-12-12T21:25:46Z Riastradh: Syntax-case is what you use to do pattern-matching on macro inputs.
2014-12-12T21:26:22Z Alestan: and syntax-rules?
2014-12-12T21:27:28Z Riastradh: Syntax-rules is a way to write down a whole macro transformer that does pattern-matching on its input and yields output according to a template.
2014-12-12T21:30:48Z Alestan: Ugh...
2014-12-12T21:31:09Z Alestan: I don't know why I can't seem to get how these all work.
2014-12-12T21:31:21Z vanila: Alestan, ill show a simple example of syntax-rules if you want
2014-12-12T21:31:22Z Riastradh: Ignore let-syntax and syntax-case.  Just focus on define-syntax and syntax-rules first.
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2014-12-12T21:31:36Z Riastradh: Define-syntax says: this name shall be a macro with the following transformer.
2014-12-12T21:32:02Z vanila: http://lpaste.net/116328
2014-12-12T21:32:14Z Riastradh: Syntax-rules says: I am a macro transformer which transforms (a) inputs of the form X to outputs of the form Y, (b) inputs of the form P to outputs of the form Q, (c), &c.    (syntax-rules () (X Y) (P Q))
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2014-12-12T21:33:12Z Alestan: Okay vanila, what's the empty () on line 2?
2014-12-12T21:33:26Z vanila: that's a more advanced thing, you can put special symbols there
2014-12-12T21:33:29Z vanila: best not worry about it for now
2014-12-12T21:33:51Z vanila: so as Riastradh was saying, (define-syntax pop! ...)  this first part says we are defining a new macro called POP!
2014-12-12T21:33:54Z Riastradh: Say it were (syntax-rules (else) ...).  That means:  In the patterns, treat ELSE as a literal part of the pattern, not as a variable which will match anything.
2014-12-12T21:34:10Z Riastradh: Most macros don't use it, but some, such as COND and ELSE, do.
2014-12-12T21:34:13Z Riastradh: COND and CASE
2014-12-12T21:34:19Z Alestan: Ah, that makes sense I think.
2014-12-12T21:34:21Z vanila: and then the (syntax-rules ...) part says that we are using the syntax-rules to implement the macro (as opposed to syntax-case or explicit renaming macro system)
2014-12-12T21:35:43Z vanila: for practice you could write a related PUSH! macro
2014-12-12T21:36:58Z Alestan: So something like (define-syntax some-syn (syntax-rules (some-function) ((some-syn arg1) (some-function arg1)))); some-function ends up in the transformed output whereas arg1 becomes whatever argument was given to the macro
2014-12-12T21:37:28Z Riastradh: No -- the literals apply to the patterns, not the templates.
2014-12-12T21:37:33Z vanila: well that stuff is complex, I would recommend not worrying about it just now
2014-12-12T21:37:40Z Riastradh: Any name you mention in a template that was not in the pattern will be taken literally anyway.
2014-12-12T21:38:14Z vanila: the first thing you should understand is what Riastradh explained:  There are a few constructs to name macros, and then a few to give implementations (of macro-transformers) them with
2014-12-12T21:38:25Z Alestan: Ah, I think that makes sense.
2014-12-12T21:38:55Z Alestan: The implementation being some callable which returns transformed syntax
2014-12-12T21:38:57Z Alestan: ?
2014-12-12T21:39:05Z vanila: yes
2014-12-12T21:39:28Z vanila: I use define-syntax with syntax-rules here, but someone else might use define-syntax with syntax-case or er-macro-transformer
2014-12-12T21:39:39Z Riastradh: So if you want it to look like (some-syn foo x), or (some-syn foo (list 1 2 3)), or anything else where the first subform is foo and the second subform is arbitrary, you could write the transformer as (syntax-rules (foo) ((some-syn foo x) (some-function x))).
2014-12-12T21:39:41Z vanila: it is also possible to create new macro systems yourself
2014-12-12T21:39:47Z Riastradh: Then (some-syn foo 5) would work, but (some-syn bar 5) wouldn't.
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2014-12-12T21:41:02Z Alestan: (define-syntax some-syn (syntax-rules (-) ((some-syn - a) (display a)))); actually behaves as I expected...
2014-12-12T21:41:42Z Alestan: Why do I sometimes see _ used?
2014-12-12T21:41:50Z Alestan: I assume it is a generic placeholder?
2014-12-12T21:42:45Z vanila: I don't think _ is special, it could be just a normal variable name like any other
2014-12-12T21:42:59Z vanila: maybe its conventional to use it for ignoring things you don't care about
2014-12-12T21:43:14Z vanila: www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_idx_184 The syntax of syntax-rules is explained here
2014-12-12T21:43:19Z Alestan: I guess it's with syntax-case that I'm seeing it.
2014-12-12T21:43:26Z Riastradh: The leftmost part of a pattern doesn't matter in syntax-rules.
2014-12-12T21:43:33Z vanila: oh, syntax-case
2014-12-12T21:44:01Z vanila: http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/syntax.html#./syntax:h3
2014-12-12T21:44:04Z vanila: here are some notes about syntax-case
2014-12-12T21:44:09Z Alestan: Oh, I have seen it with syntax-rules as well.
2014-12-12T21:44:21Z Alestan: So I think I understand syntax-rules now,
2014-12-12T21:44:22Z vanila: _ is special in syntax-case
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2014-12-12T21:48:06Z Alestan: So syntax-rules defines a procedure which accepts a variable number of arguments, treats symbols listed in the magic () as literals, while all other arguments are bound to local names, then goes through the list of patterns till a pattern matches and returns the second half of the matching item as the output syntax.  All that happens during code expansion, the output then gets executed at runtime.
2014-12-12T21:50:07Z vanila: yeah :)
2014-12-12T21:50:39Z Alestan: That's actually rather simple, I don't know why it took me over an hour without getting how it works...
2014-12-12T21:50:43Z vanila: a really important part of all this is hygiene
2014-12-12T21:50:57Z Alestan: Right, I was about to ask about that.
2014-12-12T21:50:57Z vanila: which means that the macros respect scope rules
2014-12-12T21:51:18Z vanila: one example of that in action is in the macro example I posted
2014-12-12T21:51:41Z vanila: even if you use that POP! macro on a local variable called "result", it will still work
2014-12-12T21:51:52Z vanila: because it knows that is a different variable called result that the one inside the macro
2014-12-12T21:52:34Z Alestan: So with syntax-case, the link you posted says that expr is evaluated first, what scope does that happen in?
2014-12-12T21:53:46Z vanila: I dont know, I'm not familiar with syntax-case
2014-12-12T21:54:12Z Alestan: Fair enough.
2014-12-12T21:54:22Z Alestan: I suppose I can probably figure it out with guile or racket
2014-12-12T21:55:08Z vanila: (define-syntax or
2014-12-12T21:55:08Z vanila:   (lambda (x)
2014-12-12T21:55:08Z vanila:     (syntax-case x ()
2014-12-12T21:55:10Z vanila: they give this example
2014-12-12T21:55:19Z vanila: so I think when they say 'expr is evaluated' they just mean like
2014-12-12T21:55:30Z vanila: the macro will process the value of the variable x, not the symbol 'x
2014-12-12T21:55:40Z Alestan: Ah, that makes sense
2014-12-12T21:55:56Z Alestan: But if x maps to an expression, you get the expression, not the output of the expression
2014-12-12T21:56:13Z vanila: http://wiki.call-cc.org/explicit-renaming-macros
2014-12-12T21:56:16Z vanila: here's more macro systems
2014-12-12T21:56:20Z Alestan: (or (+ 5 6) ...); x is '(+ 5 6) not 11
2014-12-12T21:56:52Z vanila: yeah
2014-12-12T21:57:01Z vanila: but (syntax-case (+ 5 6) ..) will match on 11
2014-12-12T21:57:54Z Alestan: Now with syntax-rules, anything not bound in the template is treated as a literal, does that mean that if it shadows another name, in the calling scope, it throws an exception, right?
2014-12-12T21:58:14Z vanila: could you make an example since I don't really see what you mean
2014-12-12T21:58:30Z Alestan: Actually, I think I can probably figure it out if I just try to run an example...
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2014-12-12T21:59:26Z Alestan: (define-syntax some-syn (syntax-rules () ((_ a) (display b))))
2014-12-12T21:59:35Z Alestan: (some-syn 5) throws an error
2014-12-12T21:59:43Z Alestan: (let ((b 7)) (some-syn 5))
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2014-12-12T21:59:45Z Alestan: As does that
2014-12-12T22:00:38Z Alestan: But (define b 7) (some-syn 5); display 7
2014-12-12T22:00:50Z Alestan: So that is what I expected :)
2014-12-12T22:04:31Z Alestan: With syntax-case, the () which is usually empty serves the same purpose as syntax-rules?
2014-12-12T22:04:53Z cojy: yes
2014-12-12T22:05:31Z zyaku___: Is SICP worth reading even if I'm already familiar with Scheme as a language? I did the first chapter and it seemed very elementary.
2014-12-12T22:05:56Z cojy: it definitely is
2014-12-12T22:06:32Z vanila: yeah SICP will teach a lot of deeper principles of computing, scheme is just a language they picked to write it in
2014-12-12T22:07:05Z vanila: its a beginner book but it picks up a lot
2014-12-12T22:08:16Z zyaku___: Okay, I'll give it another try then. Thanks!
2014-12-12T22:12:01Z Alestan: Why does syntax-case need #' preceding the output while syntax-rules does not?
2014-12-12T22:13:06Z cojy: because syntax-case lets you run arbitrary scheme code inside it
2014-12-12T22:13:22Z cojy: so the output needs to be wrapped with a template to handle hygiene
2014-12-12T22:13:33Z Alestan: While syntax-rules simply returns whatever is inside.
2014-12-12T22:14:28Z cojy: yea
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2014-12-12T22:16:42Z Alestan: thanks guys, I've been trying to figure this out for too long and you made it really easy.
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2014-12-12T23:42:16Z Alestan: So how is something determined to be a macro?  Is it a property of the callable that makes it a macro?  Or is it a property of the name to which it is bound (some table of name-to-macro-procedures)?
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2014-12-12T23:43:34Z Alestan: I am puzzled by this: (define s (syntax-rules (...) ((some-syn ... b) (display b)))) (display s)
2014-12-12T23:43:46Z Alestan: ;displays #<procedure:s>
2014-12-12T23:44:15Z Alestan: (define-syntax some-syn s) ; then throws an error
2014-12-12T23:45:11Z Alestan: If it was just assigning a procedure into a table of macros, I would expect that to work, while if it is a property of the procedure itself which makes it a macro, I don't see why one needs define-syntax separate from define...
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2014-12-12T23:57:04Z turbofail: what scheme are you using?  is this racket?
2014-12-12T23:57:21Z turbofail: well regardless the problem here is most likely something called "phasing"
2014-12-12T23:58:40Z turbofail: my guess is that if you had done (define-for-syntax s ...) (define-syntax some-syn s) it would have worked