2014-12-07T00:00:08Z teurastaja: Grr
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2014-12-07T00:05:00Z teurastaja: (map lazy user-list)
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2014-12-07T00:07:10Z daviid: :)
2014-12-07T00:07:55Z teurastaja: Hey someone!
2014-12-07T00:08:05Z teurastaja: Finally!
2014-12-07T00:08:34Z teurastaja: You ever implemented scheme in C?
2014-12-07T00:08:43Z teurastaja: I could use your help
2014-12-07T00:11:03Z teurastaja: Im from the province where most scheme development occurs and im bored so i thought of implementing scheme on a microcontroller
2014-12-07T00:11:25Z technomancy: teurastaja: I just started using http://microscheme.org and it's pretty nice
2014-12-07T00:12:44Z technomancy: you could do a nice scheme on ARM boards, but AVR forces you to cut a lot of dynamicity.
2014-12-07T00:12:55Z technomancy grumbles about the idiocy of harvard architecture
2014-12-07T00:14:06Z teurastaja: Lol im looking at the DS89C450, a 8051
2014-12-07T00:15:02Z teurastaja: Nice but im not looking to be dependant upon the arduino board
2014-12-07T00:18:25Z technomancy: cool
2014-12-07T00:18:33Z technomancy: well you might want to read the microscheme paper
2014-12-07T00:18:51Z technomancy: I'm sure you could learn from its design
2014-12-07T00:19:09Z teurastaja: Ive seen some ARMs seem supported but anyways... What are some of the techniques used to implement scheme in C? Sure ill read that
2014-12-07T00:20:03Z teurastaja: I mean... How do you implement closures?
2014-12-07T00:20:52Z BW^-: teurstaja: alive yes.
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2014-12-07T00:23:53Z teurastaja: I know continuations are easily made of setjmp and longjmp but closures would be what macros?
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2014-12-07T00:25:44Z teurastaja: How do you delay procedure evaluation otherwise?
2014-12-07T00:26:54Z teurastaja: And it must carry its own stack through pointer manipulations
2014-12-07T00:28:59Z ijp: 1. continuations are not just setjmp/longjmp 2. closures would be a pointer to code, plus an environment vector for closed over values
2014-12-07T00:31:10Z ijp: so you just have a c function for each lambda, with an argument for its environment, and calling a function means extracting both parts of the closure struct and applying one to the other
2014-12-07T00:32:26Z teurastaja: Ok and how do you "pack" the code? In unparsed form?
2014-12-07T00:32:56Z ijp: what do you mean?
2014-12-07T00:35:06Z teurastaja: You execute code that has been applied to its environment variables, but how do you "pack" the code as an argument in c?
2014-12-07T00:36:09Z ijp: you are asking me how to compile a lambda?
2014-12-07T00:36:23Z teurastaja: Yup
2014-12-07T00:36:49Z ijp: lambdas are C functions, compile the body just like you would any other scheme expression
2014-12-07T00:37:48Z teurastaja: By manipulating file pointers? Impossible in microcontrollers
2014-12-07T00:38:09Z ijp: I don't see where file pointers come into this
2014-12-07T00:38:18Z teurastaja: Im a noob i know sorry for that
2014-12-07T00:38:29Z cojy: teurastaja: hwo are continuations easily made out of setjmp and longjmp?
2014-12-07T00:38:42Z ijp: cojy: they aren't
2014-12-07T00:38:58Z cojy: yea i mean if you don't have closures down you can't do it at alll
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2014-12-07T00:39:42Z cojy: teurastaja: have you made an interpreter?
2014-12-07T00:40:03Z teurastaja: Only in scheme
2014-12-07T00:40:08Z cojy: did it do closures
2014-12-07T00:40:27Z teurastaja: It would be trivial in perl or javascript
2014-12-07T00:41:12Z cojy: im trying to explain it to you btw
2014-12-07T00:41:22Z cojy: but first you need to be able to write an interpreter with closures
2014-12-07T00:41:26Z cojy: then it's very intuitive
2014-12-07T00:42:23Z teurastaja: No it just copied lambda from the other implementation...
2014-12-07T00:42:41Z cojy: the other implementation?
2014-12-07T00:42:54Z cojy: do you have a paste somewhere? you sure you did it right?
2014-12-07T00:42:55Z teurastaja: Well the one i used to write it
2014-12-07T00:43:10Z cojy: it's common to mess up closures when making an interpreter
2014-12-07T00:43:38Z teurastaja: No i wrote it all on paper in a 6 month closed therapy lost all
2014-12-07T00:43:42Z cojy: teurastaja: you have to pair the lambda with the environment it was in otherwise you get dynamic binding
2014-12-07T00:43:49Z cojy: its the same for compiling
2014-12-07T00:44:42Z ijp: conceptually compiling isn't that much different from interpreting
2014-12-07T00:44:42Z cojy: but you want to walk the code to collect only what is used inside the lambda, replace the variable references with vector references and put all the needed values in a vector that you pass as an extra parameter
2014-12-07T00:44:45Z teurastaja: Yes i point to the saved stack
2014-12-07T00:45:34Z ijp: by stack do you mean control stack or the environment?
2014-12-07T00:45:41Z ijp: if you conflate the two, you don't have lexical scoping
2014-12-07T00:46:20Z teurastaja: Function stack
2014-12-07T00:47:03Z ijp: so, no lexical scoping for you
2014-12-07T00:47:15Z teurastaja: Oh damn...
2014-12-07T00:53:39Z ijp: teurastaja: if I follow you corrently, what you seem to be doing instead is creating continuations rather than closures
2014-12-07T00:56:02Z teurastaja: Ok i copy all variables in a struct of arrays and i pass it as one of 2 arguments of a function which binds that argument to the other argument which is a function pointer?
2014-12-07T00:56:05Z ijp: teurastaja: ((let((x 3)) (lambda (y) (+ x y))) 10) does that return 13 for you?
2014-12-07T00:56:51Z ijp: if you get an error, it means you don't have proper lexical scoping
2014-12-07T00:57:17Z teurastaja: If im totally hopeless tell me ill stop bothering you
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2014-12-07T00:59:45Z cojy: teurastaja: you hoist the code part into a normal C function, but you add an "env" parameter
2014-12-07T01:00:09Z cojy: in the place of the lambda you have a pair of a pointer to that function, and an environment vector
2014-12-07T01:00:45Z cojy: and you call the function pointer with the environment paired with it + arguments any time you want to call it
2014-12-07T01:02:24Z cojy: http://churchturing.org/y/90-min-scc.pdf
2014-12-07T01:02:34Z cojy: this has a couple slides to help illustrate its not that helpful overall though
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2014-12-07T01:09:10Z teurastaja: Oh so i handle pairs thats useful
2014-12-07T01:12:28Z teurastaja: Ok im getting a better idea of the data/program representation in c
2014-12-07T01:13:48Z cojy: closure conversion is probably the most major part of it, since that's what allows you to make lambdas into C functions
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2014-12-07T01:17:43Z teurastaja: Thanks
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2014-12-07T03:59:30Z jcowan: hoi
2014-12-07T04:07:30Z jcowan: I'm making a library of immutable, sharable, cheaply subscriptable string-like objects, but I don't know what to call them.  "String" is out.  "Rope" has implications of cheap insert/delete that I don't intend, though ropes could be built on these.  "Text" implies something higher level.  Any suggestions?
2014-12-07T04:10:22Z offby1: is there a special word for "cheap bead necklace worn at Mardi Gras"?
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2014-12-07T04:18:57Z jcowan: There would be, if I needed one!
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2014-12-07T10:00:23Z chitofan: http://pasterack.org/pastes/19837
2014-12-07T10:00:27Z chitofan: what error did i overlook?
2014-12-07T10:03:33Z MichaelRaskin: Are you sure you want begin, not cons?
2014-12-07T10:04:21Z chitofan: begin is the scheme's version of progn in cl, right?
2014-12-07T10:04:45Z MichaelRaskin: Yes
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2014-12-07T10:06:00Z chitofan: it works with cons
2014-12-07T10:06:03Z chitofan: thanks!
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2014-12-07T12:16:10Z chitofan: if i have a list with 3 distinct objects that are separated from each other with an all uppercase string, how do i bundle them into a list of 3 lists?
2014-12-07T12:16:59Z chitofan: i've only gotten so far as http://pasterack.org/pastes/38542
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2014-12-07T13:03:24Z pjb: chitofan: your paste is incomplete.
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2014-12-07T13:14:03Z chitofan: pjb: i realized that i would get into a nested list if i went with that idea, so i stopped there..
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2014-12-07T14:25:09Z mlaine: anyone here using gambit-c git?
2014-12-07T14:25:35Z mlaine: what would be the proper way to keep up to date?
2014-12-07T14:26:13Z mlaine: git pull && make clean && make -jX from-scratch?
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2014-12-07T14:54:40Z flaggy: Is the only way to see if two numbers are different (not (= x y))?
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2014-12-07T15:11:59Z ecraven: flaggy: (or (< x y) (> x y)) :)
2014-12-07T15:12:21Z ecraven: flaggy: equal? may work too, eqv? might as well, even eq?, depending on your implementation
2014-12-07T15:20:46Z flaggy: well, I was looking for something less verbose, like (!= x y) :P
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2014-12-07T15:32:24Z snyp: continuations are so confusing....
2014-12-07T15:34:22Z flaggy: everything in this earth is confusing
2014-12-07T15:34:36Z flaggy: thank god I can pretend I understand a few
2014-12-07T15:37:00Z dpk: flaggy: (define (!= . xs) (not (apply = xs)))
2014-12-07T15:38:45Z flaggy: I found it odd that it was not part of the language already. I thought I was missing something.
2014-12-07T15:38:51Z dpk: or even better, (define (! f . xs) (not (apply f xs)))
2014-12-07T15:39:23Z dpk: then you can do (! = x y) or (! <any-predicate> <any args>) to avoid paren-clutter
2014-12-07T15:39:40Z dpk: doesn't work with syntax though, so you might want to implement it as a macro
2014-12-07T15:40:10Z snyp: what does call/cc return ?
2014-12-07T15:40:15Z flaggy: interesting :)
2014-12-07T15:40:43Z snyp: what does call/cc return after applying it to the lambda?
2014-12-07T15:40:47Z dpk: snyp: whatever the passed procedure returns
2014-12-07T15:41:03Z dpk: *or* if the passed procedure calls the continuation arg, it returns whatever the arg is
2014-12-07T15:41:45Z snyp: dpk: ah
2014-12-07T15:41:50Z snyp: returns ?
2014-12-07T15:41:58Z snyp: (+ 1 (call/cc (lambda (cc)
2014-12-07T15:41:59Z snyp:                 (begin (cc 3)
2014-12-07T15:42:02Z snyp:                        2))))
2014-12-07T15:42:15Z snyp: why is it not print 4 and then 3?
2014-12-07T15:42:19Z dpk: returns 4
2014-12-07T15:42:20Z snyp: s/print/printing
2014-12-07T15:42:25Z snyp: why not 3 after?
2014-12-07T15:42:30Z dpk: because the continuation there is like an early escape
2014-12-07T15:42:35Z dpk: like 'return' in C or whathaveyou
2014-12-07T15:42:40Z snyp: i see
2014-12-07T15:42:47Z snyp: weird
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2014-12-07T15:43:42Z dpk: not really; the continuation is an object representing the 'next action' of the interpreter. when you call it, it resets the next action and completely forgets about whatever was previously ahead of it
2014-12-07T15:44:36Z snyp: i searched for escape in r6rs.pdf
2014-12-07T15:44:39Z snyp: "Scheme was the first widely used programming
2014-12-07T15:44:40Z snyp: language to embrace first-class escape procedures"
2014-12-07T15:44:45Z snyp: is that it?
2014-12-07T15:45:09Z snyp: i see.
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2014-12-07T15:47:50Z snyp: yes they are it seems
2014-12-07T15:47:57Z snyp: nice
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