2014-11-10T00:02:10Z sigjuice: vanila: Why the right side is f(y(t)) is precisely what I don't get.  Is it that SICP is talking about a narrow class of differential equations where the right side is f(y(t)) ?
2014-11-10T00:02:36Z vanila: remember that math equations and stuff are jsut suggestions
2014-11-10T00:02:41Z vanila: nothing is really formal or precise
2014-11-10T00:02:55Z sigjuice: perhaps this is something fundamental and I should go find myself a differential equations for dummies text?
2014-11-10T00:03:12Z vanila: no it's not
2014-11-10T00:03:43Z vanila: this is sjust confusing notation, I blame leibniz i guess
2014-11-10T00:03:53Z vanila: it's not too important
2014-11-10T00:04:18Z vanila: any differntial equations book you look at will have the same problems
2014-11-10T00:04:22Z vanila: except SICM...
2014-11-10T00:04:44Z vanila: if you want to see this  done right then SICM is the best
2014-11-10T00:13:00Z mark_weaver: that's definitely true, but SICM is also very advanced material.  I personally know someone who earned a PhD in Physics from MIT, and whose father won a nobel prize for physics, who had to drop out of the SICM class because it was too difficult for her.
2014-11-10T00:13:19Z xyh: sigjuice & vanila: I remember there is a text book about differential geometry which is written in Scheme, by Gerald Jay Sussman :)
2014-11-10T00:13:19Z xyh: but I forget the name ...
2014-11-10T00:13:53Z sigjuice: thanks vanilla.  So f(y(t)) is nothing special and just an example chosen by the authors of SICP.  I guess f(y(t)) leads to the calculation of e later in this section.
2014-11-10T00:16:53Z xyh: mark_weaver: your friend is a cool girl (although not good at SICM :P
2014-11-10T00:17:10Z vanila: oh xyh!
2014-11-10T00:17:20Z xyh: hi! vanila :)
2014-11-10T00:17:22Z vanila: <Zarutian> when xyh returns: when aforesaid objects implementation is changed while the system is up and running (See Squeak/Smalltalk80 become: )
2014-11-10T00:17:25Z vanila: a message for you :)
2014-11-10T00:17:44Z xyh: I had see that on clog
2014-11-10T00:17:53Z vanila: (and i made a little step in my forth, but need to do lots more)
2014-11-10T00:17:55Z xyh: * saw
2014-11-10T00:18:57Z sigjuice: I am probably correct in assuming that SICP will only get harder after chapter 3?
2014-11-10T00:19:03Z xyh: vanila: I hope this topic is not rude in this channel :P
2014-11-10T00:19:41Z vanila: sigjuice, don't worry, I think there won't be anything weird again like that differntial equations bit
2014-11-10T00:20:14Z xyh: sigjuice: I hope you can read "the little schemer" before going on about SICP
2014-11-10T00:20:16Z ijp: vanila: depends on what you find weird
2014-11-10T00:20:29Z ijp: the prolog bit is weird if you've never done that sort of thing before
2014-11-10T00:21:32Z xyh: sigjuice: and also skip "the prolog bit", just learn minikanren instead :)
2014-11-10T00:22:04Z ijp: it's not prolog, but logic programming in scheme, I just didn't want to say "logic programming in scheme"
2014-11-10T00:22:13Z ijp: we can see how well that worked out
2014-11-10T00:22:44Z Nerock: cojy: yeah i did, i still have the tab open, but theres some functions im not allowed to use
2014-11-10T00:22:51Z Nerock: unless i make them myself
2014-11-10T00:23:07Z cojy: thats fine just make those parts yourself
2014-11-10T00:23:23Z cojy: if you have trouble with one of those you can ask
2014-11-10T00:23:34Z xyh: sigjuice: IMHO, SIPC is good but have it limits (to me, the videos looks funny, but the book is too big :P )
2014-11-10T00:23:48Z sigjuice: so far, streams has been the most interesting and unique topic.
2014-11-10T00:24:32Z sigjuice: xyh: I do not plan to watch the videos.  I just want to get to the end of the book.
2014-11-10T00:26:42Z xyh: sigjuice: I forget in SICP what streams are :P , and it is cool to have your own way of learning, while my way is to never read a big book through :P
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2014-11-10T00:27:16Z xyh: it is actually a belief of mine
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2014-11-10T00:29:56Z xyh: vanila: is your forth interpreter works now ? is it on github yet ? :)
2014-11-10T00:30:45Z vanila: not yet, i have just debugged some stuff - gotta do FIND next
2014-11-10T00:34:56Z xyh: vanila: 加油 to you :) I do not know how to say "加油" in english, but literally it means "refuel" (so you can work harder).
2014-11-10T00:36:36Z xyh: :P
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2014-11-10T00:37:50Z vanila: :)) thank you
2014-11-10T00:40:53Z xyh: vanila: I have just figured out a way to implement "OO-like type" in forth-like language. where functions are registered to the types (so the name-space saved), just as methods to classes. and important thing is that I can still make functional-paradigm works well with this system.
2014-11-10T00:44:56Z xyh: vanila: and I can do some optimization too. if "1 2 +" needs to be compiled into a function-body, I could do the calculation in compile-time. if I do the calculations in compile-time on every possible "+", then I can prove that "1 2 + 3 +" is got optimized too.
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2014-11-10T00:49:23Z xyh: does anyone knows what an ``incremental-compiler'' is ??? I forget where I see this term before ...
2014-11-10T00:50:02Z vanila: that sounds very powerful
2014-11-10T00:50:31Z ijp: ikarus calls itself that, but I could never remember why
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2014-11-10T00:51:32Z xyh: oh! I have used ikarus for a long time!
2014-11-10T00:52:08Z cojy: lots of lisps are in a way
2014-11-10T00:52:25Z cojy: code that you eval gets compiled at runtime
2014-11-10T00:53:40Z xyh: cojy: compile a phrase and call it right after ? (like ocaml ? )
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2014-11-10T00:53:57Z xyh: ocaml uses the term "phrase"
2014-11-10T00:54:39Z cojy: yea kind of like that
2014-11-10T00:55:09Z cojy: common lisps can do an even better job since they can do it like that even when you have undefined dependencies
2014-11-10T00:55:25Z cojy: but also xyh ocaml doesn't compile like that, only to bytecode which runs on interpreter
2014-11-10T00:55:37Z cojy: many lisps will actually compile to machine code in the repl
2014-11-10T00:55:39Z xyh: oh! I see
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2014-11-10T00:56:34Z xyh: I thought "incremental-compile" is something like :: when a new phrase is added, optimize the part (of the whole compiled code) that could be optimized after the new phrase is added.
2014-11-10T00:57:27Z cojy: they oculd do that if they wanted but i dont know of any system that does
2014-11-10T00:57:49Z cojy: because keeping around that analysis information is too expensive
2014-11-10T00:58:47Z xyh: I think the expensive part is on "optimize the whole compiled code".
2014-11-10T00:58:48Z cojy: i mean JITs like java and javascript etc. can do their runtime optimizations still
2014-11-10T00:59:01Z cojy: but most will throw away any static analysis stuff
2014-11-10T00:59:46Z cojy: xyh: yes it wouldn't make sense to have it as the default, but just if you needed to update a running system
2014-11-10T01:00:58Z xyh: cojy: I do not know JIT. it is not only for portability ???
2014-11-10T01:01:10Z cojy: no it is for speed mostly
2014-11-10T01:01:28Z cojy: and this style of compiling code of runtime
2014-11-10T01:03:19Z xyh thinks #scheme is the ideal place to talk about language-dev now :)
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2014-11-10T01:37:17Z Nerock: (define (revhalf L) (removelastHalf  (countList L) (reverse1 L))) why doe this say that i need to arguments, dont i have two argumenst?
2014-11-10T01:37:37Z Nerock: removelasthalf takes in two arguments
2014-11-10T01:37:52Z Nerock: but when i do that it says i only gave it one
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2014-11-10T01:47:53Z sigjuice: Nerock: which half do you want to remove?
2014-11-10T01:48:51Z Nerock: the last part
2014-11-10T01:49:12Z Nerock: and it looks like im removing the first part....
2014-11-10T01:49:26Z Nerock: i dont understand this language very well lol
2014-11-10T01:49:42Z sigjuice: So '(1 2 3 4 5 6) should produce '(3 2 1)?
2014-11-10T01:49:57Z Nerock: thats correct
2014-11-10T01:50:04Z cojy: Nerock: https://www.refheap.com/93009
2014-11-10T01:50:12Z cojy: you can use that as a hint
2014-11-10T01:50:39Z cojy: that will return the list reversed up until the nth element
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2014-11-10T01:52:51Z Nerock: xs being a list and n being the number? i choose?
2014-11-10T01:53:20Z cojy: yea
2014-11-10T01:53:32Z cojy: it would do you good to study how it works for the future
2014-11-10T01:53:57Z Nerock: Yeah it really would, ive been reading, and goign to tutoring for a while now
2014-11-10T01:54:05Z Nerock: its just confusing as hell to me
2014-11-10T01:54:10Z cojy: yea its realyl confusing
2014-11-10T01:54:12Z cojy: for a while
2014-11-10T01:54:13Z Nerock: mostly the recursion part
2014-11-10T01:54:16Z cojy: then it makes perfect sense
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2014-11-10T01:56:26Z cojy: basically the recursion moves one element from the in over to the out, and decrements the counter
2014-11-10T01:56:43Z cojy: once the counter hits 0 it returns the out
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2014-11-10T02:22:13Z Nerock: maybe a dumb question but how would ceiling work?
2014-11-10T02:22:20Z Nerock: i have (define (middleList L) (ceiling / (Length L)2))
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2014-11-10T02:26:45Z cojy: Nerock: that will just be integer division so floor/ceiling wont do anyhting
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2014-11-10T02:27:00Z pjb: Nerock: http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_304
2014-11-10T02:27:00Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/knnjfz4
2014-11-10T02:27:11Z cojy: you could do (/ number 2.0) then ceiling
2014-11-10T02:27:28Z cojy: you should use the built-in one you shouldnt be expected to implement it
2014-11-10T02:27:43Z pjb: ceiling takes only one argument, therefore when you call it with three arguments it's an error.
2014-11-10T02:28:52Z cojy: i also think numerics depends on the scheme implementation
2014-11-10T02:29:21Z Nerock: so for example when i type in (celiing 6/2) i get 3
2014-11-10T02:29:21Z pjb: cojy: ceiling is specified in the r5rs standard.  Therefore it doesn't depend on the r5rs implementation.
2014-11-10T02:29:29Z cojy: not celing itsel
2014-11-10T02:29:35Z cojy:  i mean for the division
2014-11-10T02:29:45Z cojy: whether it returns a rat or int
2014-11-10T02:30:03Z pjb: 6/2 = 3 so ceiling indeed doesn't need to do anything.
2014-11-10T02:30:21Z cojy: Nerock: that is also a rational literal it wont work like that normally
2014-11-10T02:30:42Z cojy: (ceiling (/ 7 2.0))
2014-11-10T02:30:52Z Nerock: so why cant i just do (ceiling (listlength)/2)
2014-11-10T02:30:55Z Nerock: oh i see
2014-11-10T02:31:08Z cojy: because its scheme and functions are always combinations
2014-11-10T02:31:17Z pjb: Because you cannot call ceiling with TWO arguments!
2014-11-10T02:31:30Z pjb:  (listlength) is one argument and the symbol /2 is another argument.
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2014-11-10T02:31:44Z pjb: If you having defined /2 it's even an undefined variable, so you have TWO errors!
2014-11-10T02:31:49Z cojy: pjb: he was clearly confused by the rational literals
2014-11-10T02:31:54Z pjb: s/having/have not/
2014-11-10T02:31:57Z Nerock: so if i did (ceiling (/ (listlength ) 2)) then?
2014-11-10T02:32:07Z pjb: Then it would workl
2014-11-10T02:32:08Z pjb: .
2014-11-10T02:32:10Z cojy: Nerock: still wont do anything make the 2 2.0
2014-11-10T02:32:54Z cojy: (in some schemes it wont)
2014-11-10T02:33:01Z pjb: Nerock: if you want an exact integer, then again, read http://www.schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_idx_304
2014-11-10T02:33:01Z rudybot: http://tinyurl.com/knnjfz4
2014-11-10T02:33:03Z Nerock: well the list length changes so when i have 6 item in the list i want it to give me 3 when i have 7 i want it to give me 4
2014-11-10T02:33:17Z pjb: Nerock: it is explicitely explained how you can get an exact integer from the result of ceiling.
2014-11-10T02:33:44Z cojy: Nerock: which scheme are you using
2014-11-10T02:34:33Z Nerock: DrRacket, version 6.0.1 language : Pretty big
2014-11-10T02:36:29Z cojy: ok great then you can just do it
2014-11-10T02:37:38Z cojy: rudybot: (define (half-length lst) (ceiling (/ (length lst) 2)))
2014-11-10T02:37:38Z rudybot: cojy: your sandbox is ready
2014-11-10T02:37:38Z rudybot: cojy: Done.
2014-11-10T02:37:47Z cojy: rudybot: (half-length '(1 2 3 4 5 6 7))
2014-11-10T02:37:47Z rudybot: cojy: ; Value: 4
2014-11-10T02:37:49Z Nerock: (define (middleList L) (ceiling / (Length L) 2)) <--- that should work? or d i have some sort of sintax error
2014-11-10T02:38:08Z cojy: scheme is case sensitive
2014-11-10T02:38:11Z cojy: you need length not Length
2014-11-10T02:39:45Z Nerock: i get an error, even with the way i did it
2014-11-10T02:40:37Z Nerock: i had to make my own length function so its called (Length L)
2014-11-10T02:42:01Z cojy: oh you made another type i didnt notice sorry
2014-11-10T02:42:17Z cojy: you did the same thing forgetting a set of parenthesis around (/ ...)
2014-11-10T02:42:56Z Nerock: im an idiot...
2014-11-10T02:43:00Z Nerock: thank you guys
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2014-11-10T03:05:47Z mark_weaver: cojy: why did you recommend dividing by 2.0 instead of just 2 ?
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2014-11-10T03:06:55Z cojy: not sure, i was wrong though
2014-11-10T03:06:57Z mark_weaver: dividing by 2.0 is worse, because it will force inexact arithmetic
2014-11-10T03:07:59Z mark_weaver: scheme is not like most languages, where division of integers automatically truncates the result.
2014-11-10T03:08:02Z cojy: yea i dont think its specified by scheme though that's the default in racket and mit-scheme though
2014-11-10T03:08:20Z cojy: mark_weaver: in chicken the default seems to be inexact
2014-11-10T03:08:29Z cojy: unless you include a package explicitly
2014-11-10T03:09:04Z mark_weaver: not all schemes support exact rationals, but (/ 1 2) should be either 1/2 or 0.5 in all schemes
2014-11-10T03:09:15Z cojy: i see now
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2014-11-10T08:53:16Z Nerock: Hey guys, anyone want to try and explain how i can make a loop in scheme?
2014-11-10T08:53:17Z Nerock: lol
2014-11-10T08:53:47Z ecraven: Nerock: look at `do' in the standard
2014-11-10T08:53:52Z ecraven: or alternatively "named let"
2014-11-10T08:54:11Z ecraven: or maybe foof-loop :)
2014-11-10T08:55:16Z taylanub: Nerock: you could write a tail-recursive procedure, use named-let, use the `do' syntax, or maybe you just want `for-each' or `map'...
2014-11-10T08:58:16Z Nerock: I hate this project... all i want is to get the back numbers of a list like if i say (backnumbers 3 '( 1 2 3 4 5 6 )) id get (4 5 6) oh and they have to be reversed so (6 5 4) and we cant use a lot of the built in functions so i had to make my own reverse lol
2014-11-10T08:59:24Z Nerock: i made my own map it works i think lol
2014-11-10T09:03:54Z taylanub: Nerock: this is homework, right?
2014-11-10T09:05:36Z Nerock: Well yeah... more like a learning experience with no book lol and google because my teacher doesnt belive in books and i've been basically reading up on scheme.
2014-11-10T09:05:51Z Nerock: and asking around
2014-11-10T09:06:39Z taylanub: Nerock: are you familiar with any other proglangs?
2014-11-10T09:07:55Z Nerock: you mean like Java and C, C++?
2014-11-10T09:08:22Z taylanub: yeah, or Haskell
2014-11-10T09:08:38Z Nerock: yeah, im most familiar with Java
2014-11-10T09:08:43Z taylanub: hm
2014-11-10T09:09:34Z taylanub: I had hoped it would be haskell from your camelCase usage :P  from an imperative language like Java to a functional language like Scheme can be difficult, yes
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2014-11-10T09:09:49Z taylanub: not impossible though .. I started out with silly shell scripts!
2014-11-10T09:10:36Z taylanub: Nerock: basically functional programming tends to be more "declarative," like maths, as opposed to imperative where you write down exact steps to take one by one
2014-11-10T09:12:53Z Nerock: hmmm I sort of have an idea, i know i have to call cdr recursively, until it hits a number and then make it stop
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2014-11-10T09:15:15Z Nerock: (define (lastHalf x L) .... (if (= x half) (stop cdr)(continue cdr): something along those lines
2014-11-10T09:15:20Z taylanub: for example consider the 'backnumbers' implementation.  in an imperative language like Java you'd set an index i = 0, then start a loop where you use the index, test the result, break if you reached your target, otherwise increment the index and repeat.  in a functional language, you would declare a function that just says "if the head of the list is what I want, return the rest, else apply this
2014-11-10T09:15:20Z taylanub: same rule to the rest of the list"
2014-11-10T09:19:20Z taylanub: Nerock: did you implement backnumbers approximately like http://sprunge.us/ReUF ?
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2014-11-10T09:24:27Z Nerock: i had something totally different lol
2014-11-10T09:25:44Z taylanub: Nerock: do you understand how this implementation works, and how it's very clean and simple once you get used to the mind-set?
2014-11-10T09:26:30Z Nerock: im going to take a look at it for a very long time lol
2014-11-10T09:27:13Z Nerock: damn cant use head or tail
2014-11-10T09:27:36Z taylanub: those are variables .. head and tail are just different names for car and cdr anyway
2014-11-10T09:27:47Z taylanub: I use the functions car and cdr there, putting their results into the variables head and tail
2014-11-10T09:28:12Z Nerock: oh i see
2014-11-10T09:28:43Z Nerock: let me google what let does
2014-11-10T09:29:19Z taylanub: Nerock: (let ((x a) (y b) ...) foo bar ...) is totally equivalent to ((lambda (x y ...) foo bar ...) a b ...)
2014-11-10T09:30:10Z taylanub: that is, it's like creating a temporary function with the parameter x y ... and passes it the values a b ... and executes it
2014-11-10T09:30:59Z taylanub: this is conceptually how you create local variables in Scheme; there is no difference between function parameters and "local variables"
2014-11-10T09:32:08Z taylanub: (well there are "internal definitions" and "letrec*" but leave that aside for now)
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2014-11-10T09:51:23Z Nerock: taylanub: thank you for explaining :) , im still trying to comprehend the whole thing.
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2014-11-10T11:12:14Z ecraven: Riastradh: do you know about a short write-up of how to properly use the mit/gnu scheme "module system"? i've been writing a lot of web stuff, but putting everything into one namespace is becoming really problematic :-/
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2014-11-10T12:15:25Z taylanub: the SRFI-54 reference implementation uses a procedure called 'char-numeric?'.  anyone know what that is?
2014-11-10T12:16:31Z LeoNerd: Presumably it's true for the characters 0 to 9, false elsewise
2014-11-10T12:16:36Z taylanub: never mind, it's in the R7RS (scheme char) library
2014-11-10T12:17:19Z taylanub: and indeed, that seems to be more or less what it does  (just using fancy Unicode terminology)
2014-11-10T12:18:00Z ecraven: there's a *lot* more numeric characters than #\0 .. #\9 in unicode
2014-11-10T12:18:48Z ecraven: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerals_in_Unicode
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2014-11-10T12:38:02Z taylanub: indeed, what was I thinking :)
2014-11-10T12:38:46Z taylanub: there's even counting rods there .. that means this Scheme library will be accepting Unicode counting rods in string positions where a number is accepted :D
2014-11-10T12:38:54Z taylanub: (porting SRFI-54 to R7RS)
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2014-11-10T18:08:53Z Riastradh: ecraven: Nope.  Closest is some notes at the end of compiler/documentation/porting.guide.  But it's a giant crock.
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2014-11-10T18:12:11Z ecraven: Riastradh: I understand that, but it's much better than *nothing* :-/ I "just" want to have support for loading or compiling files into different environments and some sort of control over ex- and importing ;)
2014-11-10T18:12:24Z ecraven: SLIME can already enter the environments and evaluate code there
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