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2014-09-27T04:14:38Z _tca: which scheme has the "fastest" implementation of continuations? (preferably natively delimited)
2014-09-27T04:15:08Z _tca: I want to play around with some thins that require very heavy shift/reset usage so it's important
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2014-09-27T06:36:25Z vanila: "To choose an implementation is to choose a tribe. Since Scheme is so minimal, you begin to rely on extensions that are only present in your implementation, and so through code you bind yourself to [an implementation]"
2014-09-27T06:36:56Z vanila: but now with R7RS, there's hope against this right? We actually write code that has some chance of working across implementations
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2014-09-27T09:00:19Z atomx: if in racket I want to make a compound unit of 2 units that export the same signature, how can I unify the 2 units, such that the symbols do not conflict ?
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2014-09-27T15:52:28Z itsarellano: hi everyone
2014-09-27T15:53:36Z vanila: hi
2014-09-27T15:57:45Z oleo__ is now known as oleo
2014-09-27T15:58:12Z itsarellano: vanila, what video do you recommend about scheme ? (apart from the SICP lectures).
2014-09-27T15:58:46Z vanila: apart from SICP? but that's the one I was abot to recomment :(
2014-09-27T15:59:07Z itsarellano: i'm currenly on 6A
2014-09-27T15:59:34Z vanila: good stuff!
2014-09-27T15:59:37Z vanila: 7 is really awesome
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2014-09-27T16:08:55Z itsarellano: have to go. bye
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2014-09-27T17:04:24Z lrs: Anyone good at creating construtors and selectors to represent points in the plane?
2014-09-27T17:08:13Z pjdelport: lrs: Pairs?
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2014-09-27T17:44:40Z lrs: pjdelport, I just dont get... the "plane" thing maybe
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2014-09-27T17:48:05Z rudybot: la la la
2014-09-27T17:48:05Z rudybot bows deeply before his master, inventor of incubot
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2014-09-27T18:02:48Z pjdelport: lrs: Can you explain your conundrum in a bit more detail?
2014-09-27T18:03:32Z lrs: pjdelport, If you want to represent points in the "plane" (assuming 3d plane) this can be done with a pair of numbers and lines in the plane can be represented with a pair of dots
2014-09-27T18:03:58Z lrs: Now i need to create a constructor and selector to repreent lines in the plane
2014-09-27T18:04:01Z pjdelport: lrs: Do you mean a 2D plane embedded in a 3D space?
2014-09-27T18:04:21Z lrs: Im not sure
2014-09-27T18:04:25Z lrs: It just says plane
2014-09-27T18:04:30Z pjdelport: What do you mean by "3D plane"?
2014-09-27T18:04:32Z pjdelport: Ah
2014-09-27T18:04:43Z pjdelport: Well, a plane is usually 2D only, by definition.
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2014-09-27T18:05:26Z pjdelport: So yes, a pair of numbers as coordinates is the canonical way to represent points on a plane.
2014-09-27T18:05:55Z pjdelport: And a pair of (distinct) points is enough to define a line on the plane.
2014-09-27T18:06:01Z lrs: http://pastebin.com/J9KEQ4Gg
2014-09-27T18:06:04Z lrs: Is this a constructor?
2014-09-27T18:06:35Z pjdelport: Perhaps; what's "makeGraph"?
2014-09-27T18:06:53Z pjdelport: (What text or source or tutorial are you working from?)
2014-09-27T18:07:54Z lrs: http://pastebin.com/DCi7rKZp
2014-09-27T18:09:03Z pjdelport: lrs: Ah, okay, that looks reasonable, yeah.
2014-09-27T18:09:36Z pjdelport: lrs: So yes, that's a data representation using a tagged list.
2014-09-27T18:10:31Z pjdelport: And (makePoint 2 3) will be a constructor for a point, which will be represented as (list 'point 2 3)
2014-09-27T18:10:42Z lrs: And the selecto?
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2014-09-27T18:11:19Z pjdelport: For the selectors, you'll probably want functions that take a point like that, and extract either the x or y coordinate.
2014-09-27T18:11:47Z pjdelport: (The selector might also check that the type tag is 'point, if that's your goal.)
2014-09-27T18:12:17Z lrs: Hm
2014-09-27T18:13:25Z pjdelport: So in other words, you might have (define p (makePoint 2 3)), and then (getPointX p) → 2 and (getPointY p) → 3.
2014-09-27T18:13:43Z pjdelport: (or however your naming convention is.)
2014-09-27T18:15:44Z lrs: Right
2014-09-27T18:16:45Z lrs: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/SScWRALw
2014-09-27T18:16:46Z lrs: ?
2014-09-27T18:17:18Z pjdelport: Hmm, i'm not sure about that.
2014-09-27T18:18:38Z pjdelport: There is the other sense of "selector", where you provide a function that accepts the parts of your data type.
2014-09-27T18:18:43Z pjdelport: Is that what you're trying to do?
2014-09-27T18:19:00Z lrs: I think so
2014-09-27T18:20:56Z pjdelport: Okay, i'm not 100% sure what the most idiomatic approach would be for the context you're in, but the idea is *probably* that the interface might look something like: (selectPoint p (lambda (x y) <...do something with x / y...>))
2014-09-27T18:21:49Z lrs: HMm, I dont really get what you mean
2014-09-27T18:22:03Z pjdelport: And the selectPoint would be: (define (selectPoint p selector) <...apply selector to the parts of p...>)
2014-09-27T18:35:45Z lrs: pjdelport, I dont get it
2014-09-27T18:36:16Z pjdelport: lrs: Hmm, okay, what are your working from?
2014-09-27T18:36:31Z pjdelport: SICP?
2014-09-27T18:37:36Z lrs: Rackety
2014-09-27T18:38:14Z pjdelport: lrs: I mean, the tutorial, or text?
2014-09-27T18:38:24Z pjdelport: Just so i have some context to try and explain in.
2014-09-27T18:40:05Z lrs: Its in swedish so I dont know if it works, but I just picked the selectos from this skeleton
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2014-09-27T18:41:01Z lrs: http://pastebin.com/gXZ7J6Rs
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2014-09-27T18:42:46Z pjdelport: lrs: Ah, okay.
2014-09-27T18:42:59Z pjdelport: Looks like you already have "name" and "shape" selectors.
2014-09-27T18:43:22Z pjdelport: Those are generic for any graphical unit defined with makeGraph
2014-09-27T18:43:45Z pjdelport: That shows you the idea of a selector: it extracts smaller parts out of a bigger structure.
2014-09-27T18:43:59Z pjdelport: So "makeGraph" is a constructor that combines a name and a shape.
2014-09-27T18:44:39Z lrs: Right
2014-09-27T18:44:54Z lrs: Its the selectors stuff I have a bit more trouble with -_-
2014-09-27T18:44:57Z pjdelport: "name" is a selector that extracts the original name you passed to the constructor, and "shape" is a selector that extracts the shape that you passed to the constructor.
2014-09-27T18:45:07Z pjdelport: That's all there is to it, really.
2014-09-27T18:45:45Z pjdelport: If you think back to basic Scheme cons pairs, (cons a d) is a constructor, and car and cdr are just its selectors.
2014-09-27T18:45:47Z pjdelport: Does that make sense?
2014-09-27T18:45:53Z lrs: So why doesnt that first stuff i wrote you work?
2014-09-27T18:46:00Z lrs: (define selectorPoint
2014-09-27T18:46:00Z lrs:   (lambda (point)
2014-09-27T18:46:00Z lrs:     point))
2014-09-27T18:46:02Z lrs: -_-
2014-09-27T18:46:21Z pjdelport: What do you want selectorPoint to do?
2014-09-27T18:46:35Z lrs: I want it to be a selector for point u.u
2014-09-27T18:47:01Z pjdelport: Well, what are you selecting?
2014-09-27T18:47:05Z pjdelport: A selector extracts things.
2014-09-27T18:47:22Z pjdelport: So the selectors for point would probably be X_coord and Y_coord
2014-09-27T18:47:31Z pjdelport: Those are the parts of a point that you can select.
2014-09-27T18:47:42Z lrs: Well, cant I just pick out point
2014-09-27T18:47:48Z lrs: Or do I need to use X_coord and Y_coord
2014-09-27T18:48:27Z pjdelport: You could pick out a point from something *else*, but that would be a different selector.
2014-09-27T18:48:54Z pjdelport: The way to think about it is that selectors are always paired up with some constructor: the selector just does the inverse of the constructor.
2014-09-27T18:49:26Z pjdelport: So makePoint is the constructor that goes with the selectors X_coord and Y_coord
2014-09-27T18:50:05Z pjdelport: makePoint turns two coordinates into a "point" value, and X_coord / Y_coord turn that "point" value back into its two coordinates.
2014-09-27T18:50:13Z pjdelport: Does that make sense?
2014-09-27T18:53:15Z lrs: pjdelport, So you mean I need to use both X and Y coord to createa point from it if I want to do a selector
2014-09-27T18:54:21Z lrs: pjdelport, http://pastebin.com/SScWRALw  -_-
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2014-09-27T18:54:39Z pjdelport: Well, the X_coord and Y_coord functions you have in there are already the selectors for point.
2014-09-27T18:54:57Z pjdelport: So you don't need to implement anything else.
2014-09-27T18:55:12Z lrs: Yeah, but what do I do if I want to select the whole poitn
2014-09-27T18:55:16Z lrs: Now its just X and y
2014-09-27T18:56:19Z pjdelport: lrs: Do you need a selector like that?
2014-09-27T18:56:32Z lrs: YEs
2014-09-27T18:56:38Z pjdelport: What do you need it for?
2014-09-27T18:56:41Z lrs: That uses both x and y
2014-09-27T18:56:45Z Soft quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-09-27T18:56:48Z lrs: Well, the problem is a separate one
2014-09-27T18:57:01Z lrs: I just used this source to look at how you do a constructor and selector
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2014-09-27T18:58:13Z pjdelport: Well, the usual way you would define the selectors for point would be like that source defines X_coord and Y_coord.
2014-09-27T18:58:36Z pjdelport: You *could* define other, additional selectors, but then it depends a bit on what exactly you need them for.
2014-09-27T18:58:36Z lrs: But I need t o use car or cadr
2014-09-27T18:58:40Z lrs: Because point doesnt work :|
2014-09-27T18:58:52Z pjdelport: X_coord and Y_coord do use car and cadr
2014-09-27T18:58:59Z lrs: Yes
2014-09-27T18:59:06Z lrs: But I want both X and Y.
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2014-09-27T19:03:40Z lrs: pjdelport, Do you know how you do that?
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2014-09-27T19:09:49Z pjdelport: lrs: Why nod just use X_coord and Y_coord?
2014-09-27T19:10:00Z pjdelport: lrs: If you need both in a different form, what form would that be?
2014-09-27T19:10:15Z pjdelport: "Why not just", even
2014-09-27T19:10:24Z lrs: Huh
2014-09-27T19:10:31Z lrs: I just want something that selects the point.
2014-09-27T19:10:31Z lrs: :|
2014-09-27T19:11:19Z pjdelport: lrs: But then you have to define what that actually means.
2014-09-27T19:11:39Z pjdelport: You can select the *coordinates* from a point, because those are what a point is made out of.
2014-09-27T19:12:10Z pjdelport: You *can* also extract it in some other form, but what form would that be?
2014-09-27T19:12:33Z pjdelport: (And do you really need it?)
2014-09-27T19:13:07Z pjdelport: lrs: The way you use the above selectors would be, for example: (draw-a-point (X_coord object) (Y_coord object))
2014-09-27T19:13:29Z lrs: I want to select the coordinates from a point
2014-09-27T19:14:06Z pjdelport: Okay, so that is exactly what X_coord and Y_coord does :)
2014-09-27T19:14:17Z lrs: Yeah but I want the whole point
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2014-09-27T19:14:27Z pjdelport: Then you just use both selectors.
2014-09-27T19:14:28Z lrs: I want (x,y)
2014-09-27T19:14:38Z lrs: Why cant I create a selector that does that for me
2014-09-27T19:14:48Z pjdelport: If you want them in a list, you can just say (list (X_coord object) (Y_coord object))
2014-09-27T19:14:59Z pjdelport: You can.
2014-09-27T19:15:12Z lrs: How
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2014-09-27T19:16:09Z pjdelport: Well, you can either use the above, or if you want to be more direct, you can implement it exactly the same as X_coord and Y_coord, except that instead only returning one coordinate, you return a list of both.
2014-09-27T19:16:25Z pjdelport: So that might give you a point-as-list selector
2014-09-27T19:16:52Z pjdelport: And in fact, because of the graphic units are represented, the generic "shape" selector will already do that for you, for points.
2014-09-27T19:18:15Z lrs: How do I do that
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2014-09-27T19:26:46Z pjdelport: lrs: Well, "shape" already does it.
2014-09-27T19:26:58Z lrs: pjdelport, Hmmm?
2014-09-27T19:27:02Z lrs: I dont get it
2014-09-27T19:27:04Z pjdelport: If you give it a point, it will give you a list of the two coordinates that the point was constructed with.
2014-09-27T19:27:05Z lrs: What do I need to write
2014-09-27T19:27:14Z pjdelport: Isn't that what you want the selector to do?
2014-09-27T19:27:14Z lrs: Right
2014-09-27T19:27:17Z lrs: Yeah
2014-09-27T19:27:20Z pjdelport: Well, it's already written.
2014-09-27T19:27:22Z pjdelport: :)
2014-09-27T19:27:26Z pjdelport: That's all it is.
2014-09-27T19:27:27Z lrs: Where
2014-09-27T19:27:30Z pjdelport: "shape"
2014-09-27T19:27:38Z lrs: So what do I write to get the coordinates
2014-09-27T19:27:40Z pjdelport: In that big source paste.
2014-09-27T19:27:57Z pjdelport: Nothing else: for points, that will give you a list of the two coordinates.
2014-09-27T19:28:23Z lrs: http://pastebin.com/RJ4XUVaj
2014-09-27T19:28:24Z pjdelport: So (shape (makePoint 2 3)) should give you '(2 3)
2014-09-27T19:28:27Z lrs: This ish ow its gonna look
2014-09-27T19:29:27Z lrs: Shape undefined
2014-09-27T19:30:18Z pjdelport: Look at the definition of shape in http://pastebin.com/gXZ7J6Rs (line 63)
2014-09-27T19:30:22Z pjdelport: That's the basic idea.
2014-09-27T19:30:43Z pjdelport: You'll see that X_coord and Y_coord just use the "shape" selector themselves.
2014-09-27T19:31:42Z pjdelport: X_coord just does (car (shape point)), and so on.
2014-09-27T19:32:08Z lrs: Why does shape use cdr
2014-09-27T19:34:32Z pjdelport: lrs: Because it extracts from the structure that makeGraph created.
2014-09-27T19:34:45Z pjdelport: "shape" is a selector for what makeGraph constructs.
2014-09-27T19:34:57Z lrs: Its the last in the list of name and shape
2014-09-27T19:35:00Z lrs: Cool I get it now
2014-09-27T19:35:04Z pjdelport: Right.
2014-09-27T19:35:25Z pjdelport: So makePoint is the constructor related to the selectors X_coord and Y_coord
2014-09-27T19:35:36Z pjdelport: makeGraph is the constructor related to the selectors "name" and "shape"
2014-09-27T19:35:57Z lrs: And if you wanted a selector from them youd need to make a cons/list of X_coord and Y_
2014-09-27T19:36:04Z pjdelport: The constructors and selectors are just inverses of each other.
2014-09-27T19:36:11Z pjdelport: (in general)
2014-09-27T19:36:15Z lrs: Which is not needed since its already defined in uh makegraph
2014-09-27T19:36:27Z pjdelport: Right.
2014-09-27T19:36:44Z pjdelport: But you can always build more complicated selectors out of simpler ones.
2014-09-27T19:36:55Z pjdelport: (those are sometimes called "views")
2014-09-27T19:37:14Z pjdelport: For example, you might want to get the coordinates of a point in polar form, rather than rectangular.
2014-09-27T19:37:36Z pjdelport: (but that's probably getting ahead)
2014-09-27T19:38:09Z pjdelport: The point is just that you can select and view and transform data in many ways: it's just a question of what you have, and what you want.
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2014-09-27T19:43:05Z lrs: pjdelport, Hmm
2014-09-27T19:43:21Z lrs: Like a shell?
2014-09-27T19:43:26Z lrs: Im not really sure what you mean
2014-09-27T19:43:31Z lrs: Its probably ahead of me
2014-09-27T19:43:44Z lrs: What you have -> What you want
2014-09-27T19:43:55Z lrs: Maybe Im just drunk and tired -_
2014-09-27T19:45:08Z pjdelport: lrs: What i mean is, in general, for any question like this, you just have to think in terms of what you have and what you want.
2014-09-27T19:45:19Z pjdelport: If you can clearly define that, then you can figure out how to get between them.
2014-09-27T19:47:06Z lrs: Right
2014-09-27T19:47:20Z lrs: My problem was basically if you could just write a defintion and write point and you would get the coordinate
2014-09-27T19:47:25Z lrs: That was kind of what I didnt get
2014-09-27T19:47:36Z lrs: Since cdr point gave x
2014-09-27T19:51:36Z lrs: Well, time for me to sleep
2014-09-27T19:51:41Z lrs: Thansk for the help pjdelport
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2014-09-27T19:54:37Z pjdelport: Cool :)
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