2014-09-24T15:07:47Z ccl-logbot joined #scheme 2014-09-24T15:07:47Z 2014-09-24T15:07:47Z names: ccl-logbot DGASAU b4283 Fare dmiles_afk iterrogo langmartin dzhus stamourv akkad ilammy przl_ Soft taylanub oleo zlrth jeapostrophe cmatei omefire yacks davexunit BitPuffin bjz daviid hiyosi_ pnkfelix vanila pjb` fikusz BossKonaSegwaY vinleod aap_ frkout stepnem leo2007 gravicappa suppi fridim__ ventonegro atomx MichaelRaskin guampa arrdem mrowe_away Intensity gabot eli jrslepak Riastradh karswell tobik aranhoide kiwnix turbofail bit` tessier cataska 2014-09-24T15:07:47Z names: GGMethos zhaoym akp work_op ivan\ certainty Okasu ecraven mutley89 ineiros fgudin Kruppe amgarching leppie zacts aoh joast duncanm c74d girrig z0d clog arbscht haroldwu weinholt tom39291 antoszka twem2_ Guest91815 rotty_ ski emma LeoNerd nisstyre jcloud acarrico mornfall anannie vukcrni mark_weaver pjdelport petercommand _5kg mario-goulart sad0ur_ SHODAN joneshf samth dytrivedi_ gluegadget ggherdov___ Neet offby1 greghendershott kwmiebach______ 2014-09-24T15:07:47Z names: superjudge____ ELLIOTTCABLE aksatac___ _tca Kabaka Riviera jkraemer niklasl ivanshmakov eMBee nitrix Kryo dca ByronJohnson pygospa finnrobi_ rsf cdidd gnomon hjolt kilimanj1ro cjh`_ Khisanth amoe kbtr joneshf-laptop_ Sgeo cross averell Nshag FracV alezost xian dsp cibs juanfra defanor Saeren_ asumu choas pchrist fadein ft cky dpk Blkt abbe utkarsh ctindall acieroid balkamos rudybot teiresias necronian sung_ edw poucet fizzie yosafbridge diginet C-Keen 2014-09-24T15:07:47Z names: gf3 copec lusory eagleflo klutometis evhan byte48 tsuyoshi zbigniew renopt SirDayBat ozzloy sethalves Razz Natch DerGuteMoritz ohama dan64 tstc 2014-09-24T15:08:12Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-09-24T15:10:24Z taylanub means to monopolize the field of early R7RS libraries :P 2014-09-24T15:10:45Z ecraven: taylanub: binary io would be great, something like erlang has for reading binary data :p 2014-09-24T15:11:08Z taylanub: ecraven: R7RS can read data into bytevectors. what does Erlang offer? 2014-09-24T15:12:22Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-24T15:14:55Z stamourv: ecraven, taylanub: https://github.com/tonyg/racket-bitsyntax/ 2014-09-24T15:15:04Z stamourv: Inspired by erlang, and awesome. 2014-09-24T15:16:42Z taylanub: that sounds similar to my https://gitorious.org/taylan-scheme/bytestructures/ 2014-09-24T15:17:37Z taylanub: mine makes you define structures akin to C types; this one seems to match directly? 2014-09-24T15:18:58Z taylanub: I have no bit strings though, not even R6RS supports that :( (or only through hacks via fixnum stuff) 2014-09-24T15:21:20Z taylanub: (oh by the way, bytestructures has an 'rnrs' branch that I didn't merge to master yet because it's untested. master is currently still a Guile module) 2014-09-24T15:21:35Z ecraven: stamourv: some day soon I should take another look at racket.. 2014-09-24T15:22:59Z stamourv: ecraven: I agree! :) 2014-09-24T15:25:54Z ecraven: are racket strings unicode by default? 2014-09-24T15:26:11Z ecraven: that's one of the biggest problems I've had with MIT/GNU Scheme :( 2014-09-24T15:26:45Z ecraven: seems they are :) very nice 2014-09-24T15:28:24Z ecraven: decent script support, command line arguments.. more and more wins :) 2014-09-24T15:29:46Z taylanub: samth: I think at present the main factor holding R7RS-large back is the pessimism of everyone 2014-09-24T15:32:01Z taylanub: vanila: you needn't be so pessimistic, one can write some small useful libraries in R7RS-small already 2014-09-24T15:32:45Z gravicappa quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-24T15:33:47Z taylanub: vanila: and yes, R7RS-large is basically 1) making some things mandataory which are optional in -small (like Unicode, full numeric tower, etc.), and 2) making SRFIs into official libraries (also writing additional SRFIs to then turn them into libraries...) 2014-09-24T15:34:04Z vanila: oh right! 2014-09-24T15:36:12Z b4284 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T15:38:12Z taylanub: people seem pessimistic over R7RS for different reasons none of which I can grasp. some complained about the lack of input from highly knowledgable people which would contribute to the older standards; that's surely sad but doesn't hold us back from making all the obvious improvements (most of which R7RS-small did), and sitting down to agree on a concrete API for something that everyone does only 2014-09-24T15:38:12Z taylanub: in a slightly different way with no real difference in underlying semantics... 2014-09-24T15:38:50Z vanila: I really like R7RS-small, it's beautiful and simple and looks like it could be useful for building serious programs that run on multiple systems 2014-09-24T15:38:56Z vanila: im really excited about the potential of R7RS 2014-09-24T15:39:05Z taylanub: (say a POSIX interface; you can't really make many mistakes there, you just need to make a Scheme version of the existing APIs) 2014-09-24T15:39:19Z vanila: what highly knowledgable people ? 2014-09-24T15:39:27Z b4283 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-24T15:39:54Z ilammy: taylanub, but what implementations do fully support R7RS? I know only about Chibi (which is, I believe, a reference implementation) and some stuff in Chicken. 2014-09-24T15:40:49Z taylanub: others complained about all the libraries being optional. I don't see how that matters because the important thing is that Racket, Chicken, Guile, Gauche, Gambit, etc. all implement libraries the same way which they already implement in *some* way. it doesn't matter if some small silly implementation out there is officially R7RS-large compliant but explicitly doesn't support libraries X, Y, and 2014-09-24T15:40:49Z taylanub: Z, or does it? 2014-09-24T15:41:31Z ecraven: ilammy: the question is, which of the larger Scheme implementations doesn't already support R7RS technically, but just hasn't renamed functions or switched parameters to actually comply 2014-09-24T15:41:48Z taylanub: ilammy: Guile is coming along, Chicken too, Gauche as well, probably more to come. I'd expect it from Racket but haven't heard anything yet. that's all R7RS-small though; -large is early in development. 2014-09-24T15:42:00Z taylanub: and yeah, what ecraven said 2014-09-24T15:42:49Z vanila: it's really really important to be able to do certain things like import modules/libaries, do IO etc. in the same way in all scheme impl.s 2014-09-24T15:43:06Z vanila: R5RS was lacking that and it fragmented scheme impls. horribly 2014-09-24T15:43:11Z bjz quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-09-24T15:43:33Z vanila: dragging scheme down and making it less useful, but R7RS looks like something that could revive scheme! 2014-09-24T15:44:22Z taylanub: I agree. it's kind of ridiculous for how long we had no library system, given it's *the* core feature that makes you able to write portable .. *ahem* .. libraries. 2014-09-24T15:44:40Z ilammy: Yeah, I also believe that R5RS not standardazing libraries after R4RS was kinda dumb and made Scheme wander for 15+ years without _any_ official module support. 2014-09-24T15:45:08Z taylanub: it could be nice if we wrote as many SRFIs as possible as R7RS-small libraries... 2014-09-24T15:45:19Z ilammy: But I believe nowadays people are more... uh... concerned with libraries themselves. 2014-09-24T15:45:24Z suppi quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-24T15:45:41Z civodul joined #scheme 2014-09-24T15:45:41Z bjz joined #scheme 2014-09-24T15:45:43Z ilammy: As taylanub said, what should be a standard library, and what should be not. 2014-09-24T15:48:16Z ilammy: The thing with libraries being optional is more a psychological concern, I believe. 2014-09-24T15:48:48Z ecraven: does geiser using racket support referencing earlier repl results? 2014-09-24T15:48:56Z ecraven: like #@13 or so in MIT/GNU Scheme? 2014-09-24T15:49:02Z ilammy: Say, if the _language standard_ permits you to omit some libraries, then it is more pleasurable to make a partial Scheme implementation. 2014-09-24T15:50:38Z ilammy: But if you have only R8RS-super-big which demands 40+ libraries from the implementation to be compliant, then you just turn your face to the wall when thinking 'I am gonna make an implementation too'. 2014-09-24T15:51:03Z ecraven: ilammy: CL lies that way :) 2014-09-24T15:51:30Z ilammy: That's what I have in mind when talking about Common Scheme. 2014-09-24T15:51:46Z ecraven: on the other hand, there *are* multiple CLs, even though the hyperspec is huge 2014-09-24T15:52:16Z ilammy: Yeah, you can just screw some libraries and implement some Scheme, but that would not be a _real_ Scheme. 2014-09-24T15:52:48Z ecraven: well, some libraries could well be implemented on top of "small" R7RS, so quite a bit of "big" R7RS could be portably implemented 2014-09-24T15:53:00Z ecraven: like some of the mostly-portable SRFIs 2014-09-24T15:53:17Z ilammy: I believe, common lispers were all making implementations while schemers were discussing stuff :) 2014-09-24T15:53:40Z gf3 quit (Quit: LOLeaving) 2014-09-24T15:53:56Z vanila: I think that maybe having call-with-current-continuation in the base library is a bit of a shame 2014-09-24T15:54:08Z vanila: isn't it basically understood at this point that cwcc is inferior to shift/reset 2014-09-24T15:54:08Z MichaelRaskin: :q 2014-09-24T15:54:35Z ecraven: vanila: personally, i'd say that is a minor detail. if enough implementations provide shift/reset, R8RS might change that ;) 2014-09-24T15:56:19Z asumu: ecraven: I don't know about geiser, but Racket's XREPL supports previous REPL results using ^, ^^, etc 2014-09-24T15:56:51Z vanila: ecraven, oh yeah it's really minor, just a little point I thought of raising 2014-09-24T15:58:09Z ecraven: asumu: thanks 2014-09-24T16:00:57Z gf3 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:03:44Z daviid quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:12:11Z tom39291 left #scheme 2014-09-24T16:12:42Z ventonegro quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-24T16:15:41Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:19:04Z zlrth quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:24:29Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:26:12Z nitrix quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:27:50Z diginet quit (Quit: diginet has quit!) 2014-09-24T16:30:31Z DKordic joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:32:15Z diginet joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:32:45Z aftershave joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:32:51Z theseb joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:33:01Z pnkfelix quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.92.1) 2014-09-24T16:37:05Z Guest80485 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:38:52Z Mso150 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:41:52Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:43:21Z aftershave quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 2014-09-24T16:47:27Z hiroakip quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:47:39Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-09-24T16:54:13Z Riastradh quit (Remote host closed the connection) 2014-09-24T16:55:33Z przl_ quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-24T16:56:17Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:01:48Z DGASAU quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2014-09-24T17:09:30Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:12:15Z DGASAU joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:14:15Z oldskirt quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2014-09-24T17:23:34Z jeapostr1phe joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:26:45Z jeapostrophe quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-24T17:28:40Z jeapostr1phe quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2014-09-24T17:28:47Z jeapostrophe joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:37:04Z Gyps joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:39:02Z amgarchIn9 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-24T17:39:33Z kazimir42 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:44:01Z BitPuffin quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-24T17:48:41Z przl joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:52:28Z daviid joined #scheme 2014-09-24T17:58:07Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-09-24T18:06:52Z MichaelRaskin quit (Quit: MichaelRaskin) 2014-09-24T18:11:37Z b4284 quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2014-09-24T18:18:52Z kobain joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:19:19Z hiroakip joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:19:26Z kobain quit (Client Quit) 2014-09-24T18:24:12Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:28:11Z oleo is now known as Guest54691 2014-09-24T18:28:46Z wingo joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:29:12Z theseb quit (Quit: Leaving) 2014-09-24T18:29:47Z oleo__ joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:31:07Z Guest54691 quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2014-09-24T18:31:45Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2014-09-24T18:34:57Z wingo quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2014-09-24T18:36:57Z tsuyoshi: what is shift/reset? 2014-09-24T18:37:13Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: see delimited continuations (AKA composable continuations) 2014-09-24T18:38:23Z kiwnix left #scheme 2014-09-24T18:40:36Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-09-24T18:42:36Z kongtomorrow joined #scheme 2014-09-24T18:42:42Z tsuyoshi: ok.. not sure I understand why it's better than call-with-current-continuation 2014-09-24T18:43:14Z LeoNerd: Easier to implement; gives better guarantees 2014-09-24T18:43:53Z vanila: LeoNerd, I think it's harder to implement 2014-09-24T18:44:29Z vanila: tsuyoshi, reset lets you 'bracket' the continuation, to choose the extent - so you have more control 2014-09-24T18:44:32Z tsuyoshi: well.. I have implemented call/cc before, and I could see where it is easier to implement, but 2014-09-24T18:44:43Z tsuyoshi: as a user they both seem terribly confusing 2014-09-24T18:44:53Z vanila: I think shift/reset is easier to understand 2014-09-24T18:45:29Z tsuyoshi: I don't really see the use case for either, to be honest 2014-09-24T18:46:03Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: see Oleg's page... let me find it 2014-09-24T18:46:20Z taylanub: http://okmij.org/ftp/continuations/against-callcc.html 2014-09-24T18:46:28Z tsuyoshi: I'm looking at this wikipedia page for delimited continuations and it gives an example of lazy streams 2014-09-24T18:46:50Z tsuyoshi: and like.. I've done lazy streams before.. it did not even occur to me that I needed to use continuations 2014-09-24T18:47:03Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: you don't need, it's just an example 2014-09-24T18:47:25Z tsuyoshi: yeah, I want an example that shows that I need it 2014-09-24T18:47:26Z vanila: tsuyoshi, Did you ever need to write a program in continuation passing style? 2014-09-24T18:47:39Z vanila: delimited continuations let you rewrite it in direct style 2014-09-24T18:47:40Z ilammy: Actually, because they are delimited. One can easily implement call/cc with shift/reset, but the reverse is feasible only with some weird trampolines and set!s. 2014-09-24T18:48:05Z tsuyoshi: vanila: the only time I ever did, it was a scheme interpreter... 2014-09-24T18:48:20Z vanila: okay, it's not too common i guess 2014-09-24T18:48:39Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: let/ec, exceptions, and continuable exceptions can be implemented with delimited continuations, for example. 2014-09-24T18:48:44Z tsuyoshi: hrm? how do you implement call/cc with shift and reset? 2014-09-24T18:49:03Z taylanub: tsuyoshi: call/cc is practically delimited at program start, so you set up an implicit prompt there 2014-09-24T18:49:12Z tsuyoshi: oh ok 2014-09-24T18:49:13Z vanila: to implement these different continuation operators in trsm of each other you need to twice CPS transform them and fid some relation, its really horrible 2014-09-24T18:49:29Z taylanub: (or if it's a REPL, it could be in the loop of the REPL, for example) 2014-09-24T18:49:45Z taylanub: (so that call/cc doesn't capture the whole REPL implementation's stack frames...) 2014-09-24T18:52:19Z taylanub: asumu: Guile's REPL prints values as "$n = foo" where n is a number, just like in GDB, and one can then use $n to refer to that value 2014-09-24T18:52:26Z kongtomorrow quit 2014-09-24T18:52:43Z taylanub: no idea if Geiser does something to reconcile Guile and Racket there, since those are the two systems it supports 2014-09-24T19:02:39Z bars0 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:04:49Z Mso150 quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2014-09-24T19:05:05Z Mso150 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:06:53Z amgarchIn9 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:07:32Z visualshock joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:09:27Z zacts joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:11:55Z common-lisper joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:13:13Z oldskirt joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:13:23Z Mso150 quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2014-09-24T19:14:00Z Mso150 joined #scheme 2014-09-24T19:15:09Z zacts quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 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