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[~Kneferili@212.31.98.210] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:00 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:59:46 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 20:03:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:15:26 interesting that racket chose to have multi-list map/for-each/etc require all lists to have same length, and r7rs did not 20:15:33 *wingo* prefers same-length 20:16:43 (add1 wingo) 20:17:15 rudybot: (add1 wingo) 20:17:21 stamourv: ; Value: 16777217 20:17:25 -!- dpk [uid15387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vortkmqmooyiezzc] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:17:25 -!- stephe_ [sid14127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlupzajozmqmubnu] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 20:17:29 what :) 20:18:03 You are a bit under seventeen million. Didn't you know that? 20:18:04 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.118.132] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:18:20 *taylanub* wonders if it was discussed properly on the ML ? 20:18:48 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@128-75-250-45.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:19:04 taylanub: it and ML are free variables in your sentence :) 20:20:19 stephe_ [sid14127@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zfbliaohtzeqzmsb] has joined #scheme 20:20:21 dpk [uid15387@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-desdnjezruriydkk] has joined #scheme 20:20:47 Re. map 20:20:47 ML = mailing list .. scheme-reports 20:20:47 It seemed like we were all focused on R7RS's dubious choice 20:23:08 well, it was srfi-1's choice 20:23:23 Aha 20:23:35 and it was discussed to some degree, and voted on i think 20:23:43 i still think it is the wrong default though 20:24:02 Circular MAPCAR and ANDCA'd negation, / Indirect JMP auto-incrementation, / Tangled spaghetti embroidered in stacks: / These are a few of my favourite hacks! 20:24:19 alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD6256E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:24:25  20:24:26 Can't break those famous lines, folks. Circular MAP got the opening words! 20:25:09 circular lists in multi-arg map can make sense, but (map cons '(1 2) '(1)) does not. 20:26:01 (values (map cons list1 list2) (map pros list1 list2)) 20:26:07 From intuition, I agree it seems wrong. I've also been bitten once by it already and I haven't written much Scheme code in my life, time will show how the times-bitten-by-srfi-1-map to amount-of-written-scheme-code ratio will change. :P 20:26:27 wingo: the most interesting thing is that the `for` comprehensions in Racket take the opposite approach 20:26:29 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-247.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:26:34 in terms of "lockstep" iteration through multiple sequences, the "stop as soon as any input source ends" can make sense 20:26:38 samth: really! 20:26:42 wingo: interestingly, haskell folks are loose with their zipwiths 20:26:42 in that they stop when one ends 20:26:55 here, this example both demonstrates it, and demonstrates why: 20:26:59 it's perhaps not clear what to do when the calls to the argument procedure in `map' not all return the same number of values, though .. 20:27:18 (loop ((for x (in-list l)) (for i (up-from 0))) ...) 20:27:31 rudybot: (for/list ([i (in-naturals)] [j '(a b c d e f g)]) (list i j)) 20:27:39 samth: your sandbox is ready 20:27:41 samth: ; Value: '((0 a) (1 b) (2 c) (3 d) (4 e) (5 f) (6 g)) 20:27:46 wingo: ^ 20:27:47 a nice example, yes 20:28:06 (the `loop' one is an example of the same thing) 20:28:18 ski: indeed :) 20:28:19 you think infinite sequences are more appropriate to for/list (etc) iteration than map, i guess? 20:28:34 *wingo* learning things 20:28:48 wingo: well, map is on lists, right? 20:29:00 and a circular thing is not a list 20:29:06 one would hope so, yes :) 20:29:06 samth : i suppose `for/list' means you're collecting the results into a list ? 20:29:11 ski: yes 20:29:13 a circular map is harder to read than a flat map 20:29:13 What about STREAM-MAP, wingo? 20:29:39 samth : what happens if you use `values' in the body form ? do you get multiple list returned as multiple values ("unzipped" so to speak) ? 20:29:51 Should MAP and STREAM-MAP have parallel contracts, or should MAP be strict and STREAM-MAP loose? 20:29:57 ski: no, you have to use for/lists (note the s) for that 20:30:03 ok 20:30:06 rudybot: doc for/lists 20:30:08 Riastradh: well that's a different thing, right? dunno. there are many reasonable options, but i would think stream-map is more like loop or for/list or whatever 20:30:09 samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/for.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt)._for%2Flists)) 20:30:18 ty 20:30:36 ski: that makes you specify the number of lists up-front 20:30:45 rudybot: doc map/values 20:30:46 Riastradh: you think map's permissiveness regarding (map cons '(a b) '(c)) is fine? 20:30:47 *shrug* I'm not going to argue one way or another. 20:30:50 samth: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: unstable/list 20:30:57 rudybot: (require unstable/list) 20:31:01 samth: Done. 20:31:03 in srfi-1/r7rs i mean 20:31:03 There are arguments both ways. I'll just sing Guy Steele showtunes while you folks argue. 20:31:04 rudybot: doc map/values 20:31:05 samth: http://docs.racket-lang.org/unstable/list.html#(def._((lib._unstable%2Flist..rkt)._map%2Fvalues)) 20:31:12 hehe :) 20:31:23 Riastradh: I knew I'd heard it somewhere before! 20:31:27 o/` Mismatched DEFINE-TERMIN pairs with .QUOTEing... o/` 20:32:01 samth : the list ids are only for documentation purposes ? 20:32:01 rudybot: metaphor or synaesthesia: you decide 20:32:04 ijp: synaesthesia 20:32:49 ski: no, you can refer to them 20:33:17 so it's a declaration that binds identifiers ? 20:33:22 rudybot: (for/lists (l) ([i (in-range 10)]) (cons i l)) 20:33:23 samth: ; Value: '((0) (1 (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (4 (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (5 (4 (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (6 (5 (4 (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 (0)) (0)) (4 (3 (2 (1 (0)) (0)) (1 ( 20:33:42 rudybot: (for/lists (l) ([i (in-range 3)]) (cons i l)) 20:33:42 samth: ; Value: '((0) (1 (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0))) 20:33:48 ASau [~user@46.115.48.210] has joined #scheme 20:33:54 kinda crazy when used that way 20:34:15 *ski* doesn't understand 20:34:32 that's a 3 element list 20:34:42 rudybot: eval (for/lists (l) ([i (in-range 2)]) (cons i l)) 20:34:46 where each element is (cons i the-previous-list) 20:34:52 ski: your sandbox is ready 20:34:52 ski: ; Value: '((0) (1 (0))) 20:35:10 previous temporally, not in the list order 20:35:11 oh, i see 20:35:25 so element 0 is (cons 0 null) 20:35:44 element 1 is (cons 1 (list (cons 0 null))) 20:35:55 and so on 20:36:00 rudybot: eval (for/lists (l) ([i (in-range 3)]) (cons i l)) 20:36:00 ski: ; Value: '((0) (1 (0)) (2 (1 (0)) (0))) 20:38:18 samth : so i suppose `map/values' doesn't accept different number of values 20:38:39 rudybot: eval (require unstable/list) 20:38:40 ski: Done. 20:40:30 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 20:42:55 oh i see, it requires to know the number of values to produce 20:43:02 rudybot: eval (map/values 2 (lambda (n) (if (odd? n) (values (- 1 n) (+ 1 n)) (/ n 2))) (list 0 1 2 3)) 20:43:03 ski: error: map/values: # produced 1 values, not 2: '(0) 20:43:09 rudybot: eval (map/values 1 (lambda (n) (if (odd? n) (values (- 1 n) (+ 1 n)) (/ n 2))) (list 0 1 2 3)) 20:43:10 ski: error: map/values: # produced 2 values, not 1: '(0 2) 20:44:56 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20:45:43 .. i suppose that because lists in Haskell are commonly used for iteration rather than storage/aggregation, this could explain why the "stop when one ends" choice was made there 20:50:01 -!- jxv is now known as zjxv 20:57:42 samth: how does racket detect and signal runaway recursion? an out-of-memory error? 21:00:08 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 21:01:55 -!- zacts [~zacts@freebsd/lover/zacts] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:03:10 racket has mutable strings, what is that 21:06:33 wingo: Re OOM: if that recursion allocates, yes. Otherwise it just goes on. 21:06:51 wingo: Re mutable strings: I blame R5RS. 21:06:51 stamourv: as in (let lp () (lp) #t) 21:07:05 wingo: That should loop forever. 21:07:15 should it? :) 21:07:22 rudybot: (let lp () (lp) #t) 21:07:28 rudybot: eval (let lp () (lp) #t) 21:07:29 wingo: your sandbox is ready 21:07:35 rudybot is running ina sandbox. 21:07:48 Sandboxes allow you to set time / space limits. 21:07:55 rudybot: eval (let lp () (lp) #t) 21:08:08 It should get bored any time now. 21:08:08 wingo: error: with-limit: out of time 21:08:10 i think it would reach a space limit before a time limit, is the deal 21:08:12 There we go. 21:08:18 ah, out of time, interesting 21:08:25 that's not a constant-space problem though 21:08:27 wingo: error: with-limit: out of time 21:08:40 the (lp) is not in tail position. 21:08:47 Ah, true. 21:08:54 wingo: error: evaluator: terminated (out-of-memory) 21:09:14 Well, this time it changed its mind. 21:09:36 rudybot: eval (/ 1 0) 21:09:38 wingo: your sandbox is ready 21:09:38 wingo: error: /: division by zero 21:09:50 so that was a catchable error, but the other wasn't? 21:10:22 i guess i want to know if you can catch stack overflow in racket 21:11:32 The stack overflows into the heap. 21:11:59 And, AFAIK, the only way to catch heap "overflows" is with sandboxes / memory limits. 21:12:07 rudybot: doc with-limits 21:12:11 stamourv: your sandbox is ready 21:12:11 stamourv: no docs for a current binding, but provided by: racket/sandbox 21:12:17 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD6256E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:12:21 rudybot: (require with-limits) 21:12:23 stamourv: error: #:1:8: collection not found for module path: with-limits collection: "with-limits" in collection directories: /mnt/racket-6.0/collects ... [143 additional linked and package directories] 21:12:27 rudybot: (require racket/sandbox) 21:12:28 stamourv: Done. 21:12:30 rudybot: doc with-limits 21:12:31 stamourv: http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/Sandboxed_Evaluation.html#(form._((lib._racket%2Fsandbox..rkt)._with-limits)) 21:12:38 tx 21:12:43 And that should throw an exception. 21:13:01 should it? throwing exception on resource exhaustion is tricky 21:13:22 FYI, there's a paper at PLDI this year about implementing a memory limit system for GHC. 21:13:41 i guess that means the computation aborts, and in addition the call-with-limits raises an exception 21:13:56 Well, in this case only the sandbox is exhausted, so there's presumably memory elsewhere. 21:13:57 so the exception is thrown from the call-with-limits and not the computation 21:14:03 Right. 21:14:35 -!- alexei___ [~amgarchin@p4FD6256E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:15:39 *wingo* likes ghc implementation papers 21:17:18 I like most of the ones I've read, especially SPJ's. 21:18:44 stamourv: when you start a racket program does it have a fixed heap size? 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