00:01:30 ijp: I actually honestly think lambda calculus (as my editor takes it) is as expressive/intuitive that a 5yo will be able to program hard games on it :/ 00:01:42 gnomon: I don't know, honestly. 00:02:03 clearly we should replace all our laws with flowcharts 00:02:29 i might actually be a little bit serious about that one 00:02:36 SrPx, have you ever tried to teach a five year old to program? (hint: try LOGO) 00:02:48 SrPx, actually, have you ever tried to teach anyone to program? 00:03:06 I don't mean that in a dismissive sense, I'm asking sincerely. 00:03:09 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFEC23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:03:12 anyway, gnomon, I don't have enough knowledge to say wether you are right or not about the following fact: would programming in lambda calculus be good enough for everyone? 00:03:23 gnomon: and honestly I don't know. probably, possibly not 00:03:28 -!- arubincloud [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-udfeznchfdmdfhii] has quit [] 00:03:53 gnomon: but what I know is: for me, it solves MANY problems and would facilitate A LOT my life if I had a very fast LC->JS compiler, and a very fast LC->Machine Code compiler. 00:04:11 considering I am not an alien/unique, which I hope I am not... that would, too, solve many problems for other people 00:04:22 It's certainly not for everyone. Are you familiar with embedded systems? 00:04:39 gnomon: but no, I have not ... /: teaching is not with me, actually. have you? 00:04:45 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc07-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:05:25 Tuplanolla: I do think that I could make a pretty good compiler from LC to small C applications that ran in embedded systems... honestly... but I could be wrong 00:05:40 Tuplanolla: I do not have much knowledge on those 00:05:44 fridim__ [~fridim@bas2-montreal07-2925317577.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #scheme 00:05:49 SrPx, I humbly suggest that lambda calculus has been around for a long time (see also Turing machines, Iverson notation, Zuse's Plankalkül, Babbage's difference engine, the Jacquard loom, and so on), yet not only have we not converged on a particular programming language (even within small communities!), we continue to create new languages! Why might this be? 00:05:49 You should try it and see. They just happen to be very stateful. 00:06:20 SrPx, I have taught a few programmers in my time, yes. 00:06:21 re: teaching children to program -- https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgbEA-fIYAAL7ao.jpg 00:06:31 gnomon: clearly it's because everyone else who's ever thought about it is an idiot 00:06:56 turbofail, well, I know _I_ am, at least. 00:07:12 (You or bottom?) 00:07:14 gnomon: if your argument is that of "people do it so it is the right way" I invite you to listen justin bieber with me at a Funk Baille on my city (= 00:07:14 I'm not an idiot, just mad 00:07:19 SrPx: I've only scanned part of this conversation, but I'll throw my two cents in the hat: The universality you see in lambda calculus is just as present in any other computational paradigm you'd care to mention. The transformations you are talking about go both ways. 00:08:04 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-118-148-98.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:08:30 ijp: good learner, that :) 00:08:35 pjdelport_: it is not about the universality but about the simplicity. The meat of the problem is: haskell is awesome, but I can't use it to make webapps because it doesn't compile to JS. Why it does not compile to JS? Why no good FP langauge does? Those are the questions and frustrations that made me go as far as creating my own language with no desire nor energy to do so 00:08:47 waa [~waa@189-73-10-174.ctame700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #scheme 00:08:54 SrPx, my argument is that people are _not_ doing the thing you describe, and have not done that thing for a hundred years or more, despite it sounding like a very good idea; and my point is that if something seems like a good idea, and it seems easy, yet it is not happening, it might be useful to dedicate some effort to figuring out why that is the case. 00:09:25 $5 on God Hates Us 00:09:33 ijp: that kid's going to go far 00:09:57 gnomon: I have spent a good amount of time trying to do so, already. I believe 90% of the time or more on this journey was spent searching for alternatives and thinking why I am wrong, and trying to convince myself of that. 00:10:08 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has joined #scheme 00:10:11 Maybe I'm stupid, but I can't convince myself, and trust me, I want to. 00:10:16 turbofail: the sad thing is the parens aren't even balanced :( 00:10:53 It would be much easier if I could say: oh screw all that, I'll just use *X* language. Except there is no single language in the world that solves my current, real-world problem 00:10:56 :/ 00:11:03 ha. parens used for enumerated lists don't count 00:11:07 SrPx: You can define a subset of Haskell that compiles directly to JS exactly as easily as you defined your subset of Lisp to compile to JS. Your expressiveness is defined and limited by what JS can do. (There just happens to be a whole lot more to Haskell than what you'd find in the JS-sized subset of it.) 00:11:10 though i've never been a fan of those 00:11:45 SrPx, then if I may offer some pointers, you might find it useful to read Petzold's book "CODE", Iverson's "Notation as a Tool of Thought", about the Church-Turing hypothesis, and about Gödel's incompleteness theorem - especially what it did to Whitehead's Principia Mathematica. 00:11:58 SrPx: have you looked at e.g. https://github.com/faylang/fay/wiki ? 00:13:05 pjdelport_: yes, I can. That would be a good options and I defend that haskell subset you propose, as much as LC itself. Or anything else that does what I need: being easy enough so you can write a compiler from it to something else without much effort, while still being powerful enough to make any kind of program without additional effort. 00:13:12 SrPx, if you spend some time reading the c2 wiki, you'll also discover some excellent arguments that have been extended and extensively reinforced and rebutted. 00:13:13 pjdelport_: yea I have tried it several times already :C 00:13:26 pjdelport_: honestly I can't work with it... it does not fit my needs for many reasons 00:13:38 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:14:45 gnomon: that sounds interesting (honestly), I'll take a look on that. but the point here is, I won't argue with you that my idea is good for everyone, I indeed don't have enough evidences of that. 00:14:49 Sure; that's why you're building a tool that does meet your needs. I'm just saying that the matter has less to do with the tool being "lambda calculus" or not, and more to do with the fact that it happens to be the collection of features that do fit your needs, in this case. 00:14:59 gnomon: it is still the only thing that solves my current real-world problem so I have to go for it anyway :/ 00:15:05 being a good, or a bad idea 00:15:45 pjdelport_: hmm perhaps 00:16:17 SrPx, you _really_ think that writing a compiler from lambda calculus to JavaScript is the very best way to solve a real-world problem? That there are no existing tools sufficiently close to the solution you're after that you could bend them to your use with less effort than building an entirely new system? 00:16:42 gnomon: if you know an alternative solution to my problem I am actually paying you to tell me!! 00:17:03 SrPx, if that is true, and if you have fully surveyed the field of options, and if you have fully analyzed your problem domain... then I wish you the best of luck, and I'll offer whatever help I can. 00:17:08 gnomon: because that is all I want. I just have a good idea for the code editor! That is all 00:17:38 SrPx, we've been having a discussion about generalities this whole time. What specific problem are you trying to solve? 00:17:40 -!- pjdelport_ is now known as pjdelport 00:17:44 -!- defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:17:51 defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:13 gnomon: you are offering me help? Find me that solution then! (: JK, but seriously, if you DO know an alternative I am actually even willing to pay. All I want now is to rm my compiler from existence and never again work on that sort of thing 00:18:40 gnomon: I dont remember what you know about my specific problem... 00:19:03 gnomon: what exactly do you know 00:19:31 pjdelport: (indeed I agree with you there) 00:20:26 My recommended solution would be Elm. 00:21:03 SrPx, I know that you said you wanted to write an editor, and that you decided that a statically typed language was unsuitable (I believe you said "impossible"), so you were looking for some other solution. 00:21:14 Would be, because it's what you might need and not what you're looking for. 00:21:16 SrPx, can you describe exactly the real-world problem you're trying to solve? 00:22:08 My understanding was that you wanted to use JavaScript without having to write JavaScript. 00:22:53 Tuplanolla: it is one of the best solutions of those I researched, indeed. It is not fast enough for some code, though - but the real reason I don't use it, honestly, is that: 1. the type system doesn't fit in my editor! I know types are good but it just wouldn't work. 2. it is small, made by a single person and could die anytime. I'm not sure I'd use I'm willing to depend on it. 3. Much bigger than my compiler! 00:23:05 ParenScript :) 00:23:06 but it is a great solution indeed and I really like the work put on it 00:23:13 ecraven: I'll stab you :c 00:23:20 gnomon: yes, a second. 00:23:25 Thank you. 00:24:24 gnomon: on the plus side, since it is impossible, eclipse doesn't exist! 00:24:54 how shall we celebrate? 00:25:19 ijp, I think a parade is in order. 00:25:50 SrPx: The other point I want to raise, if it hasn't been already, is that JS performance is *highly dependent* on modern JIT-compiling JS VMs. They're insanely optimized to be efficient with all kinds of crazy things that JS code out there does. 00:26:08 like not officially have integers 00:26:17 I met one of the people working on Elm a while back, so my recommendation may be somewhat biased. 00:26:17 So to a large extent, the performance profile of whatever you compile to JS is going to be heavily shaped by how well it happens to hit what JS VMs optimize well (or not, as the case may be). 00:26:31 (that one changes in the next spec I believe) 00:26:32 It sure didn't seem like a dying project. 00:26:34 gnomon: I am programming an editor for a lisp-like language that runs on the browser. It looks like that: http://imgur.com/VujXv7l . This editor is a gold mine of productivity for me as a programmer. I use VIM, and there are lots of ideas I bring from VIM, plus some other pretty neat things. 00:27:09 gnomon: the problem is: it runs on the browser and should be able to: 1. generate fast javascript. 2. do it fast. 3. without depending on the server 00:27:36 Initially it was supposed to work for Scheme. But there is no good scheme->js compiler written in js itself. 00:28:25 So I went language by language all around the web looking for a solution. Even Stalin I tried. I even accepted changing a little my idea... for example, I don't want a type system. But if I had a good enough haskell->js compiler on the browser I was even willing to learn haskell and use it instead of scheme 00:28:42 Not nothing, nothing I could find had those 3 reqs... 00:29:24 So I spent some good amount of time thinking about the problem and here I am, writing a LC->JS compiler. Why LC? Because it has everything I need and is simple enough so I could write a compiler that did not suck myself. 00:29:26 and here I am 00:29:48 SrPx, what disqualified the existing Scheme->JS compilers? 00:30:49 gnomon: none of them can run on the browser. generated code is huge (my compiled code is pretty much 1->1... most of them have huge deps) and none of them is fast enough (js sucks @ using lists, for example... if I was not converting lists to JS arrays I would never have enough performance) 00:31:22 I mean, just look at the code they generate and look at the code I generate for my guloid function: http://jsperf.com/sdklfjlkasjfljafdafljfaf that function is auto-sufficient, no runtime/external deps are required. that is all 00:31:31 I can just plug it into any JS-capable engine and it will work 00:31:43 not even 1kb. there is nothing like that 00:32:07 SrPx, OK. It sounds like you are writing a client-side-only editor. Is that correct? If so, why must it be in the browser? 00:32:16 Yes. 00:33:18 The compiler/otimizer/interpreter is all packed in less than 3kb of javascript, too! The whole editor has no more than 5kb, including the compiler itself... 00:33:39 *offby1* inflates a paper bag 00:33:52 offby1: what that means? :( 00:34:03 SrPx, that's lovely, but if the real-world problem is that your editor runs too slowly, why not use a different editor? 00:34:16 *gnomon* bops an inflated paper bag in offby1's general direction 00:34:26 hmm pardon? My editor is pretty fast and good 00:34:33 the problem is that there is no language I can use on it! 00:34:58 SrPx, what do you mean "use on it"? 00:35:15 I need a programming language that looks like lisp and compiles to fast javascript AND faster native code, all that must run in the client (browser) so it must be written in javascript itself and should not have a size of 1mb because that would destroy the user experience and my server 00:35:17 The ride never ends. 00:35:41 SrPx, OK. _WHY_? What problem are you trying to solve? 00:36:21 gnomon: ... ? The problem is making myself a great productivity tool? 00:36:44 SrPx: Doesn't that just reduce to an s-expression syntax for JavaScript? 00:36:47 That's a goal, not a problem. What is the actual _problem_? What is the obstacle you're trying to overcome? 00:37:13 SrPx: is your code open source? 00:37:32 Hmm pardon? I don't understand what you mean? There is actually no problem per see, other than the fact I am implementing a programming language by myself when all I wanted was to code a cool code editor on the browser. 00:37:59 I shouldn't have to code a programming language when all I wanted as to create a good editor for scheme (or other lisp-like language) that produced web apps 00:38:15 ecraven: it will be... it doesn't have anything great though, you could code it in a day 00:38:17 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:38:27 ecraven: not yet because the product is not even public/finished anyway 00:39:03 the stream fusion for example does look interesting. i'll have to see whether some other implementations actually do this 00:39:10 SrPx, you've just said that you want to be writing your editor, but instead you are writing a compiler for some new language. Why are you not writing your editor instead? What is the problem preventing you from doing so, the problem that you are actually trying to solve? 00:40:34 gnomon: suppose I just wrote the editor. Then I'd be able to write lispy-like code fast, productively. OK. Now, what do I do with that code? I would like to use that editor to create web-apps (games, etc, that run on the browser)... 00:40:46 -!- Tuplanolla [~Put-on-la@dsl-jklbrasgw2-54f8aa-52.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:40:46 so I need a way to compile that code to fast javascript, obviously... 00:40:51 that is the problem, I guess... 00:41:07 also, the editor has a "run" bottom that compiles the code and runs it in the other side of the screen. 00:41:16 button ? I don't know how to spell that, sorr 00:42:27 so even if I had a Scheme->JS compiler that produced good enough code, it wouldn't work if it couldn't run in the browser, because that would make the "run" button impossible and that is a important part of the thing 00:42:36 am I expressing myself badly? I can try again 00:42:40 maybe an image, hold on 00:43:12 SrPx, I'm still not understanding why you're not just writing JavaScript, if you want to run code in a browser; or why you're not writing Java applets, if you want to do things that way; or why you're not writing Racket programs and simply hosting them on a web page, if you want to do things that way. What is the fixation on the browser all about? 00:43:33 gnomon: http://o7.no/1hQtZGu look at this picture, maybe you will understand... 00:43:55 I press "run", it compiles the code on left and runs on the right... 00:44:26 SrPx, you have done a very good idea of explaining your goal, I understand. But if all you want is a Lisp-like language with a "run" button, why not use Racket? Or elisp inside Emacs? Or Smalltalk? 00:44:37 I am not just writing JavaScript because it doesn't work like scheme? notice the parenthesis... they are colored and indented automatically... the whole thing works for s-expressions only 00:45:00 gnomon: there are advantages to using a browser as your host 00:45:02 gnomon: because I have to write code that runs on the browser :/ 00:45:07 instead of Emacs or Smalltalk :) 00:45:37 gnomon: that is really a requisite of the project I am working, and not a decision of mine (though partially I do agree that having it to run on the browser will help considerably the marketing dept) 00:45:59 SrPx, so why not write a syntax highlighter for JavaScript instead, if you have settled on the browser to be your target platform? 00:46:03 xcc [xcc@cable-146-255-152-38.dynamic.telemach.ba] has joined #scheme 00:46:44 because a lisp-like language seems preferable to JS? 00:47:02 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD62903.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 00:47:24 gnomon: because I will not be as productive as I am with scheme. Not even close. Then you will suggest: just write javascript as S-Expressions. And that is pretty much what tried to do initially, it was the first sketch of my current language. 00:47:32 https://github.com/viclib/LiScript 00:48:02 the problem is that it did not produce fast enough code for things like (foldl (map (map ...))) etc. High level code. I couldn't, for example, create functions for quaternion operations and use them, 00:48:06 SrPx, which Scheme->JS compilers produced bad performance for you? 00:48:40 because javacript engines SUCK at inlining. remember when I talked about manual optimizations for the "guloid" code? I had to inline manually everything for it to run fast enough 00:48:45 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:49:09 so, if I wanted to write high level code I had to find a way to inline everything... and optimize... etc etc... so I worked and worked on top of my own language and that is what i did 00:49:35 SrPx, again I ask: which Scheme to JavaScript compilers performed so poorly in your tests? 00:49:46 what I mean is, if I just wrote javascript in S-Expressions I would not be able to write high level code with map, foldl, small functions etc, and that would beat the point of the editor 00:50:02 gnomon: I tried spock and a few others I don't remember the name :/ 00:50:38 but they WONT be fast enough, trust me. just look at the function I sent to you. do you really think any of them will produce something like that? it is 100% inlined, no leftover function call inside that big function: http://jsperf.com/sdklfjlkasjfljafdafljfaf 00:50:52 any modification, any function call inside the innermost for loop will DESTROY the performance. 00:51:57 if you just look at the code compiled from any anything->js engine... and if you have worked long enough with js... youll understand how they have no chance of being fast enough 00:52:29 js is extremely sensitive to bad code. for you to have an idea, the BUILT IN map function is slower than a naively defined map function by an order of magnitude!! 00:52:57 SrPx, I've been working with JavaScript since before it was called LiveScript. I know a thing or two about the way the engines on the market currently work. 00:53:19 anyway, that is what I have to say about my problem 00:53:25 this is honestly something I am struggling with 00:53:32 SrPx, so if you have a working compilation tactic, why not apply that to an existing Scheme-to-JS compiler instead of creating an entirely new language? 00:53:48 if you do have a good solution I am even willing to pay you (: if not with money, with countless thank you's and gratification, whatever you prefer (: 00:54:11 gnomon: hmm... 00:54:40 Or, why not work with browser vendors to add support directly for whatever language you desire? 00:55:18 gnomon: because it is too complex for me... I don't think I am capable... given the time limitations :/ and I'm not sure my ideas would work for Scheme. It is not immutable by default so my insanely inlining approach would break things 00:55:37 RIGHT. 00:55:38 gnomon: that last one is something I didn't even think about? But I don't know really? 00:57:21 gnomon: your stamina is commendable 00:58:28 ijp, or possibly lamentable! 00:59:40 your politics are contemptible! 00:59:50 *offby1* is about to burst out in song 01:00:08 *gnomon* shuffles a quick soft-tentacle 01:00:14 Lerner and Lowew probably 01:00:20 L o e w e 01:01:49 :/ 01:02:20 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 01:03:19 gnomon: sowhat is the conclusion? 01:03:24 you asked me to explain my problem... 01:03:33 Fare [Xk1plVeD@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 01:04:19 SrPx, my conclusion: if you're ever looking for inspiration, check out http://library.readscheme.org , or any of the other resources I mentioned, or any of the links in the topic of this channel. You're swimming in solutions, but you have to put in the time to read and work with code written by other people, and you have to put in the effort to truly understand the difference between a problem and an assumption. 01:04:34 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 01:05:28 Seems like a good resource, thank you. 01:05:35 Convince yourself that improving tools which already exist is a more valuable contribution than building a completely new thing; that building a new thing can be a lot of fun; and learn when you need to be useful, and when you need to have fun. 01:05:41 And good luck. 01:05:46 We've all been where you are. 01:05:55 Well, not offby1, he's just weird. 01:06:29 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:06:54 You've all been looking for a fast compiler from a Scheme like language to fast javascript in javascript itself? o.o 01:07:08 sometimes fun is useful 01:07:26 *offby1* scowls 01:07:42 *SrPx* doesn't understand anything offby1 says 01:07:43 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 01:08:29 ¿lqod no s ;ds I u l lfd I 01:08:57 SrPx, we've all been stuck working to solve what seems like a really difficult problem, only to eventually discover that the difficulty was with the methods to which we restricted ourselves rather than anything inherent in what actually needed to be solved. 01:10:15 gnomon: but honestly, what would you do if you were in my position? (Actually, better: how would you implement such editor for scheme-like lang in JS? What would you use as a language?) 01:12:03 -!- woodboy__ [~woodboy45@host26-53-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 01:13:19 SrPx: do you have a list somewhere of the existing Lispy JavaScript dialects you've tried? 01:13:40 SrPx, I would jettison the browser and use emacs instead, or DrScheme, or Edwin; or I would look into the Mozilla Bespin project, or jsVim, or the other existing JS editors out there; or I would grab Chris Double's Scheme-to-JS compiler, break out the research papers on partial evaluation, and fire up my browser profiler to start making things run fasough. 01:13:49 -1s/fasough/fast enough/ 01:14:44 And I would steal some tricks from https://github.com/jashkenas/coffee-script/wiki/List-of-languages-that-compile-to-JS 01:14:44 http://tinyurl.com/3ybm88a 01:15:09 pjdelport: aw I remember a few, clojurescript, parenscript, sibilant, spock, scheme2js I believe? I stopped trying when I realised no compiler would work if it didn't inline agressivelly and none did 01:15:59 oh also whalesong 01:16:13 SrPx, are you familiar with asm.js and emscripten? 01:16:14 the creator stopped working on it to work for google :C 01:16:34 gnomon: kind of 01:16:39 I would think that you would drop the "no compiler inlines aggressively" line upon seeing the Unreal engine running in JS. 01:17:04 gnomon: yea, that is a really really great point actually. 01:17:14 maybe the answer lies there but I don't know what to do, then, honestly 01:18:04 SrPx: Did you benchmark fully before concluding that? 01:18:15 wait, this is still happening? 01:18:18 How about adapting a Scheme->JS compiler to target asm.js instead, possibly using some of the easier optimization techniques from twobit/hobbit? 01:18:23 I guess I'll make some tests, then. I remember I gave up on emscripten for some reason, I don't remember what, exactly. I have a folder here full of C code I tried to compile to JS with it 01:18:25 samth, yes. 01:19:16 samth, we still don't know what task is so performance-critical that no existing solution could give SrPx the performance he's after, but we've covered some ground. 01:19:44 SrPx: Inlining isn't necessarily necessary, if a tracing JIT compiler can extract your hot paths. 01:20:55 Microbenchmarks don't necessarily give you results that will scale to larger programs, which engines optimize differently. 01:22:18 I admit I have to study LLVM/Emscripten better, but I am just browsing the folder here. At starter, it seems like a simple hello world file in c compiles to 3495 lines of javascript? Also, I would have to include LLVM itself on my site, if I wanted the interactive run button to work, I guess? 01:22:29 Wouldn't that be unpractival? 01:23:31 More or less practical than inventing, implenting, testing, documenting, evangelizing, and supporting an entirely new programming language? 01:23:57 Look, it really boils down to a choice. Do you want a pick a poison, or do you want to advance the state of the art? 01:23:59 jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:24:03 -!- jao [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:24:03 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:24:56 I don't know. I am thinking 01:25:27 It is not a new language, though, it is just lambda calculus, it is older than scheme... 01:25:34 But I agree with you 01:25:59 I just honestly don't know how I could incorporate that into my editor... at all... I'll study it though 01:27:03 jerrychow [~jerrychow@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 01:27:20 -!- jerrychow [~jerrychow@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:26 *SrPx* opens his llvm folder and stares his screen http://o7.no/1ehH741 with a _ face thinking: "wtf do I do with that" 01:28:10 woops, it was supposed to be only the vim part 01:28:57 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 01:29:14 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:15 SrPx: Lambda calculus is more like a language paradigm; it's not an executable language on its own, without primitives of your choice. 01:29:29 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 01:30:58 The primitives you choose make it into a new language of your creation. (I'm assuming they're chosen to map well to JS?) 01:31:08 -!- dan64 [dan64@dannyadam.com] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 01:31:15 arubin [~arubin@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:32:53 pjdelport: I don't actually choose any primitives other than numbers and arithmetic operations... but I even consider this a flaw of mine's for not being able to define real numbers in LC 01:34:06 fn, var, list, nil, conc, is_nil?, is_singleton?, num, if, eq, and, or, not, lt, gt, add, mul, sub, div, mod, floor, sqrt, cos, sin, I need to add a few more math ops though 01:35:20 Are you sure? That would mean that you can only write numerical functions; doesn't your eventual code need to call other JS, manipulate the DOM and browser, draw stuff, etc.? 01:35:55 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.88.103] has joined #scheme 01:35:55 gnomon and everyone else, I appreciate your efforts and patience in helping, no doubts you are a great community. thank you very much. I guess I will work now. probably study more about llvm as you suggested 01:36:23 scheme compiled to llvm ? 01:36:25 pjdelport: and lists! my bad. 01:37:11 -!- illerucis [~illerucis@cpe-72-225-194-43.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:37:35 SrPx: If you're intending to write things like games, I'm sure your code will have to do most of what's on that list... and those things will have to be primitives in your language that get translated to JS targets. 01:38:29 futuro [~user@opennic/futuro] has joined #scheme 01:38:54 SrPx, good luck! 01:38:57 That's what gnomon means with a new language: you can't really escape creating one. Except for toy calculators, it's never "just" lambda calculus. 01:39:14 pjdelport: uh huh, but I could just cheat and say I don't have a list primitive, I just detect certain pattern in lambda calculus and use that as a list 01:39:55 pjdelport: as I do with foldl: the compiler identifies the foldl code and transforms it in a primitive... you could say it is a primitive, but at the same time it isn't because it is actually implemented in the language. right? 01:39:56 SrPx: That's not cheating; that's just the act of choosing of how you represent the primitive. :) 01:40:20 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 01:40:27 so I could say the same for numbers and in the end what is left is just LC... 01:41:36 I mean, now "add" is a primitive... but if I remove if and implement in the language, but optimize it to the actual "+" operation on the processor... then is it a primitive? 01:41:41 LC is what's left after you remove the primitives, but the point is that your language is LC *plus* all your primitives. Grammar + vocabulary. 01:42:35 pjdelport: but removing the primitives would be merely a act of implementing them in the language and then identifying them in the compiler... 01:42:40 so that would make my language LC itself? 01:44:24 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 01:45:17 SrPx: You can give implementations of every primitive in terms of other primitives, but at some point, there has to be a foundational set of primitives in your language that actually get translated to JS. 01:45:32 That choice defines your language. 01:46:30 That's what makes your language JS-shaped, rather than just being abstract LC 01:49:56 pjdelport: no! If I just removed list and number it would be pure lambda calculus 01:50:06 the only things that I can't remove are "fun" and "var" 01:50:32 If your compiler identifies certain forms of functions to translate specially, that makes them primitive, in the eyes of that compiler. 01:51:22 yes, but not of the language... so that is the point, the whole codebase is just lambda calculus. it is not *my* language. if someone in the future decides to implement a super fast LC compiler, it will have all code in my base available for him, for example 01:51:57 correct? 01:54:59 It's not just LC: it's LC plus your vocabulary of primitives. It doesn't matter that you can restate primitives in terms of each other: you can't escape having to define a foundational set of primitives for the language to make any sense. 01:55:48 ...?! :/ 01:55:49 it is not 01:55:50 but ok 01:56:34 the primitives are not in term of eachother, are in term of the lambda calculus primitives (lambda and var) and nothing else :/ 01:57:07 all is implemented in top of lambda calculus, except the compiler identifies a few things (numbers, lists & folds) and optimizes them... 01:58:57 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 01:59:49 SrPx: Even if you embed something like Church encoding, that embedding forms a choice of primitive. And it's not a choice of primitive your compiler can just optimize away, if it needs to generate code that deals with unknown numbers and lists at runtime. 02:01:58 Can scheme code be compiled to native code ? 02:02:06 -!- jxv [~jxv@71-84-192-255.dhcp.wsco.ca.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:02:10 zRecursive: of course, yes 02:02:25 -!- noobboob [uid5587@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lycntghllckygfog] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 02:02:28 pjdelport: racket ? 02:03:12 Guile seems cannot do it 02:03:41 -!- Fare [Xk1plVeD@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 02:05:22 not yet 02:06:45 IIRC,only chezscheme can do it. but it is commercial 02:07:34 zRecursive: There's Chicken Scheme, among many others, I'm sure. 02:10:12 pjdelport: Is Chicken still actively developed now ? seems it only supports R5RS... i will look at it 02:10:41 I'm not sure offhand. What are you trying to do, though? 02:10:54 pjdelport: pew, ok 02:11:17 pjdelport: learning 02:12:05 zRecursive: What exactly do you mean by compiling to native code? Producing a stand-alone executable, or also things like JIT compilation? 02:12:29 pjdelport: stand-alone executable 02:12:46 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 02:14:27 like chezscheme does 02:16:32 SrPx: I'm not trying to shoot your ideas down, by the way; I'm just saying that this kind of thing can easily be deceptive. The nature of something like a "language primitive" is often fuzzy, but it's inescapable. You have to have a grammar (LC) and a vocabulary, and even something like Church encoding is a particular (very inefficient) vocabulary. 02:17:14 tupi` [~user@189.60.14.19] has joined #scheme 02:17:20 noobboob [uid5587@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-brzptwpdvotxqdzf] has joined #scheme 02:17:40 pjdelport: that seems acceptable to me, and please feel comfortable about shooting my "idea" down - I honestly wish I had an option (thus I am studying LLVM right now) 02:18:31 The idea of a truly primitive-free language is a bit like the idea of a perpetual motion machine: In reality, all you can actually do is move your choice of primitives around, just like all you can do is convert energy from one form to another. 02:19:25 Well, I'm trying to clarify terminology more than anything else, to help you be more aware of the language you're creating. 02:21:21 LLVM / emscripten is quite heavy-weight, by the way... it's the antithesis of a lightweight source-to-source compiler toolset. 02:21:36 that does not seem so true to me, though. i could still just use LC without compiler optimizations. it would be lambda calculus. just slow 02:21:43 I could use tromp's work for example 02:23:17 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 02:23:47 Right, and the point is that that's not "just" lambda calculus: it's LC plus a minimal set of (very slow) primitives. 02:26:31 jxv [~jxv@71-84-192-255.dhcp.wsco.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 02:27:52 More to the point, things like Church encoding only gives you data representation: it gives you no effects or operational semantics. 02:28:09 For your language to do anything useful or observable (like writing a game) it needs those. 02:28:49 And they can only ever be achieved as primitives (that e.g. translate to JS) 02:30:20 frkout_ [~frkout@101.110.31.120] has joined #scheme 02:33:34 *pjdelport* aways, for sleep 02:34:09 -!- frkout [~frkout@101.110.31.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 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[Quit: annodomini] 14:27:06 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:30:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-183-162.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:30:29 dca [~dca@146.185.164.188] has joined #scheme 14:30:40 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 14:30:51 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 14:30:52 guys, what scsh version is most usable under 64-bit system? 14:34:40 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 14:37:00 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 14:44:38 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:48:26 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:50:54 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 14:51:48 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@89.202.203.51] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 14:53:40 dca, I don't think there has been any 64-bit-ready version released. Someone picked up scsh to revive it based on recent Scheme48 versions, but I don't know what the status of that is. 14:54:09 Looks like it was Roderic Morris and it's at . 14:58:24 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 14:59:17 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 14:59:48 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:02:39 Riastradh: yeah right, but i guess it's not yet released 15:02:54 also i've seen guile package for scsh but no idea how full is it 15:07:02 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has joined #scheme 15:07:33 Is there a variation of SRFI 26's cut without the messy <>s? 15:07:59 (lambda (x y z) (f 3 x 4 y (pqr) z)) 15:09:02 Is that a "no"? 15:09:44 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.108.238] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:13:12 More like a `What would you prefer?'. 15:13:13 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 15:16:38 -!- tenq|out is now known as tenq 15:17:02 Clojure's "partial". 15:17:58 -!- LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:18:02 I feel that function composition and partial application are more fundamental than, say, algebraic operations and should be built in the core. 15:18:44 LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has joined #scheme 15:19:19 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 15:20:21 (define (partial f . args) (lambda args* (apply f (append args args*))) 15:20:24 Like that? 15:22:19 Yes. I was wondering if such a thing already exists. 15:22:29 annodomini [~lambda@32.166.223.225] has joined #scheme 15:22:30 -!- annodomini [~lambda@32.166.223.225] has quit [Changing host] 15:22:30 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:25:00 It certainly exists...perhaps you had a more specific domain of existence in mind? 15:27:43 I can't find it. Surely I could rewrite any library I need whenever I want to use it, but that's not very practical. 15:29:42 It's a one-liner. What finding is necessary? 15:30:36 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 15:30:56 mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has joined #scheme 15:31:08 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 15:32:28 Finding a library that defines it and perhaps various other core functions so that I don't need to dig up and paste the definition into the file I want to use it in. 15:33:06 Some call it reuse. 15:33:21 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 15:34:39 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 15:38:06 rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has joined #scheme 15:41:29 annodomini [~lambda@32.166.223.225] has joined #scheme 15:41:32 -!- annodomini [~lambda@32.166.223.225] has quit [Changing host] 15:41:32 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 15:41:38 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-zwekkjbulcydvibz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:41:45 -!- rustico [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:43:19 jxv [~jxv@71-84-192-255.dhcp.wsco.ca.charter.com] has joined #scheme 15:50:19 -!- LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:52:43 Some calls it a sling blade 15:53:23 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 15:53:37 LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has joined #scheme 15:53:51 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 15:56:25 Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:05 Fare [vQZ0@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 15:57:05 Rodya_ [~trav@pool-98-115-20-99.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 15:57:42 rustico__ [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has joined #scheme 15:58:19 -!- rustico__ is now known as rustico 15:58:54 -!- b4283 [~b4283@60-249-196-111.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 15:59:35 arubincloud [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tlkhxmwwuxwiwxdx] has joined #scheme 16:00:48 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 16:01:14 -!- rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:05:49 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:09:25 -!- _asc [~Charkov@c5.edrana.lt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:11:51 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 16:16:09 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 16:23:13 -!- waa [~waa@189-73-10-174.ctame700.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:24:00 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:27:11 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:31:41 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-138-123.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:33:11 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:33:16 Isp-sec [~palach@89-178-42-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 16:33:32 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:37:49 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 16:40:51 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:41:12 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 16:42:45 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 16:44:06 rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has joined #scheme 16:47:05 -!- rustico [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:47:24 rustico__ [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has joined #scheme 16:49:57 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:51:14 -!- rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:55:05 rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has joined #scheme 16:55:59 snits [~snits@71-38-98-214.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 16:58:26 -!- rustico__ [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:03:17 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:06:47 -!- rustico_ [~rustico@gw-rdu.qliktech.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:14:19 rudybot: (srcloc->string 1) 17:14:21 samth: your sandbox is ready 17:14:21 samth: error: srcloc->string: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 17:17:42 rudybot: init racket 17:17:44 stamourv: your sandbox is ready 17:17:50 rudybot: (srcloc->string 1) 17:17:50 stamourv: error: srcloc->string: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 17:18:01 Hmm, that's odd. Maybe it's new. 17:18:08 rudybot: (banner) 17:18:08 samth: ; Value: "Welcome to Racket v5.3.2.\n" 17:18:18 rudybot: Get with the times! 17:18:18 stamourv: OK, I see what the CTCP VERSION thing is about. They send the request to everyone on the channel several times, then leave the channel so the response fails and the IRC client prints a few errors. 17:20:11 b4283 [~b4283@118.150.135.102] has joined #scheme 17:22:48 -!- alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 17:25:56 in case anyone doesn't know it yet: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/ 17:25:59 -!- snits [~snits@71-38-98-214.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:26:12 "Correspondingly, (car z) is defined to be the Saviour of the world." 17:27:14 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:27:18 ecraven: this is my favorite one: http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/post/76623909526/yours-is-one-of-the-better-markov-chain-text-mashups 17:27:21 http://tinyurl.com/ko7fa7p 17:27:30 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This is a major gain in efficiency 17:27:40 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc06-o.oracle.com] has joined #scheme 17:29:30 i don't know if people will understand what i'm saying but i'll try......you know how macro evaluations requires **TWO** evals? (one eval to eval macro replacement code to new sexpr and a SECOND eval to get result)......well it seems therefore that you'll NEVER have nested quasiquotes! that is they way it appears to me....(nested macros will require so many NESTED evals that the SAME eval will never see nested quasiquotes) ...right? 17:30:34 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:30:55 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 17:31:43 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:31:58 theseb: quasiquotes are just a mechanism for constructing s-expressions, so i don't see how this has anything to do with nested evals 17:33:09 samth: if one was trying to IMPLEMENT scheme you'd need to implement eval of quasiquotes......in that case you'd need to worry about how to handle nested quasiquotes.....from what i gather it never comes up...that's all 17:34:35 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:35:25 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 17:36:20 -!- mihai_ [~mihai@81.170.72.2] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:40:55 theseb: you certainly can eval nested quasiquotes 17:41:01 rudybot: eval ``(x) 17:41:01 samth: ; Value: '`(x) 17:41:39 samth: i agree you CAN.....but it is annoying to implement so i'm just trying to get confirmation from the channel it isn't vital 17:42:10 theseb: i just showed an instance of it -- you aren't really implementing quasiquote if that doesn't work 17:42:15 samth: nothing prevents you from choosing to do it but i don't think it ever comes up if you write macros without nesting...even if you nest several macros 17:42:28 samth: true 17:42:39 rudybot: eval (quasiquote (quasiquote (,(+ 1 2))) 17:42:39 samth: error: #:1:0: read: expected a `)' to close `(' 17:42:42 rudybot: eval (quasiquote (quasiquote (,(+ 1 2)))) 17:42:42 samth: ; Value: '`(,(+ 1 2)) 17:42:55 samth: i misspoke.....i'm just making a lisp for my own purposes....if i was going to release it then yes i'd need to implement everything 17:44:01 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 17:44:02 jao [~jao@10.125.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:44:06 -!- jao [~jao@10.125.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Changing host] 17:44:06 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:47:01 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 17:56:38 -!- mango_mds [~mango_mds@c-71-207-240-42.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 17:58:02 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|out 18:01:40 is there a way to use call-by-value semantics with a record? at least in chicken scheme, they seem to be call-by-reference. 18:02:37 (I want a function take a record and return a new record, without changing the original) 18:08:36 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 18:10:08 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 18:15:22 -!- Fare [vQZ0@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:23:08 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.135.102] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:25:24 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 18:27:04 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:27:27 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 18:29:57 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 18:36:38 bicgena [uid11626@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hwrvpvckbwymewqz] has joined #scheme 18:41:50 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:42:17 Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has joined #scheme 18:43:55 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 18:49:19 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 18:49:36 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 18:50:54 -!- iron_houzi [~houzi@cm-84.211.65.20.getinternet.no] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:51:40 iron_houzi [~houzi@cm-84.211.65.20.getinternet.no] has joined #scheme 19:04:27 -!- lolcow [~lolcow@105-236-33-136.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:05:18 leppie [~lolcow@105-236-33-136.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 19:08:39 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 19:19:28 slowpoke: I can't make sense of your question. 19:20:42 Oh, I get it... 19:22:04 Yes, record are "compound" objects, so your variables never hold the whole data of a record such that passing the variable passes a copy of the record, instead your variable only holds the object that's made up of the slots. This is the same as cons cells, vectors, (mutable) strings, etc. 19:22:16 slowpoke: You'll need an explicit copy procedure. 19:22:54 alexei [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:26:58 rustico [~rustico@190.55.37.246] has joined #scheme 19:29:03 Or bake some purely-functional-data-structures library on top of records, or (better) use an existing one if there is one. 19:31:29 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-180-87.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:32:58 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-yavmmsomygfmksvf] has joined #scheme 19:37:10 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 19:37:42 -!- _sizung [sung@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:bf62] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 19:38:02 sung [sung@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:bf62] has joined #scheme 19:38:26 -!- sung is now known as Guest34967 19:40:18 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 19:40:23 The-Mad-Pirate-2 [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined 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[The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:10:03 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:10:19 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:10:32 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:10:36 Riastradh [~riastradh@jupiter.mumble.net] has joined #scheme 20:10:47 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:11:00 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:11:15 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:11:29 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:11:46 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:11:59 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:12:11 taylanub: ah, that is what I've thought, as well. I'll be looking at libraries, then. Or copy-procedures, if all else fails. Thanks! 20:12:19 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:12:32 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:12:48 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:13:02 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:13:19 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:13:32 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:13:47 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:13:59 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:14:15 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:14:29 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:14:44 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:14:58 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:15:13 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:15:27 -!- 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The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:31:54 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:32:01 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 20:32:08 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:32:19 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:32:33 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:32:45 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:32:59 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:33:11 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:33:24 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:33:37 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:33:52 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:34:04 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:34:17 theseb: I use nested quasiquotes often enough :) 20:34:18 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:34:29 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:34:42 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:34:53 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:35:00 guampa [~guampa@gateway/tor-sasl/guampa] has joined #scheme 20:35:05 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:35:16 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:35:28 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:35:39 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:35:52 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:35:58 (perhaps someone should temporarily ban The-Mad-Pirate ..) 20:36:03 -!- The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:36:17 The-Mad-Pirate [The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:36:28 -!- 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[The-Mad-Pi@181.165.233.90] has joined #scheme 20:40:27 aftershave_ [~textual@h-238-41.a336.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #scheme 20:41:36 Hi! I just tried to compile stalin in OS X 10.9, but it wanted X11 includes. Not sure why it wants it, but has anyone succeeded to compile it without X11 support? 20:42:09 ecraven: when? 20:42:09 ecraven: why? 20:42:34 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|out 20:43:14 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 20:43:27 -!- clog [~nef@bespin.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:43:47 clog [~nef@bespin.org] has joined #scheme 20:43:47 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 20:49:24 -!- tenq|out is now known as tenq 20:53:29 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:53:52 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:55:18 -!- alexei_ [~amgarchin@p4FD60A03.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:55:57 hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 20:56:27 theseb: for generating HTML 20:56:49 theseb: if you want to implement `, you really need to support this, otherwise it just isn't ` :) 20:57:16 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD93D84.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 20:57:31 -!- moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:57:42 taylanub [tub@p4FD93689.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 20:58:18 moea [~moe@host217-42-246-181.range217-42.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 20:58:51 FYI, I installed stalin via chicken 20:59:49 does the term "dynamic extent" exist in other programming languages? 21:00:50 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@126.73.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:05:17 jerrychow [~jerrychow@58.245.253.218] has joined #scheme 21:06:03 -!- jerrychow [~jerrychow@58.245.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 21:07:53 yes 21:08:18 it just isn't called exactly "dynamic extent" maybe.... 21:08:38 so the concept exists, the wording differs....