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ZZZzzz] 06:01:27 -!- defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 06:02:38 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 06:07:56 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:08:03 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 06:09:15 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:10:49 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:54 brianmwaters [~brianmwat@host-72-174-188-10.ldv-co.client.bresnan.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:05 ackpacket [1806ee5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.238.95] has joined #scheme 06:11:23 -!- arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 06:12:30 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:12:58 Guys, I have two functions here: http://ideone.com/Hg9EHu count-change-orig and count-change. Someone told me that switching the order of the base cases would affect the behavior, but I did switch those base cases and can *not* find where the behavior would change 06:14:04 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 06:14:23 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:16:26 nisstyre [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 06:18:04 ackpacket: there are 5 or 6 functions in that file. which one are you asking about? 06:18:36 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:18:56 cc specifically 06:19:02 I switched the ending base cases 06:19:41 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.252.133] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:23:15 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 06:23:37 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:24:19 ackpacket: just looking at the cc function, switching the base cases could make a difference since they're not mutually exclusive. 06:24:27 oxum [~oxum@122.164.171.99] has joined #scheme 06:24:49 Let me try some edge cases and see what come sup 06:24:55 *comes up 06:25:30 ackpacket: it's possible that your other code never calls cc with those edge cases, in which case you wouldn't see a difference in practice. i didnt' read the rest of your code :) 06:26:36 ackpacket: doing SICP? 06:26:37 I'm manually calling (count-change 100) and (count-change-orig 100), which both immediately call cc 06:26:57 so those edge cases have to come into play 06:27:01 yes brian 06:37:13 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 06:37:32 klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 06:40:58 -!- klltkr [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 06:42:47 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-098-079-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 06:44:06 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:46:55 -!- Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:48:13 defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 06:53:56 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:55:10 eliyak [~eliyak@wikisource/Eliyak] has joined #scheme 07:00:21 juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 07:01:28 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@ip-89-177-53-194.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:05:56 Yup. Can't figure out what switching the base cases changes. It's a mystery to me 07:06:54 -!- robot-be` is now known as robot-beethoven 07:10:37 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.37.222] has left #scheme 07:17:24 -!- nisstyre [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3] 07:18:52 FFs. what will it do differently lol 07:22:44 -!- minikomi [~adam@w133123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #scheme 07:26:53 bars0 [~Name@d132-201.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 07:31:22 -!- bars0 [~Name@d132-201.icpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:24 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 07:39:36 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:39:38 -!- cbsw [~cbsw@116.208.176.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:44:21 jewel_ [~jewel@105-237-57-213.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 07:45:42 Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #scheme 07:45:46 cbsw [~cbsw@116.208.176.58] has joined #scheme 07:45:55 ackpacket: since you never change amount and kinds-of-coins in the same recursive call, there will never be a situation where both base cases apply 07:48:32 -!- Giomancer [~gio@107.201.206.230] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:49:58 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 07:50:10 eliyak: I agree. The question this problems tems from was very leading though, and even asks "for what arguments" the change in base cases will cause a change in behavior. It led me to doubt the conclusion you and I have made 07:50:14 that we will see no change 07:54:12 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-098-079-081.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 07:54:28 juxovec [~juxovec@ip-37-188-234-211.eurotel.cz] has joined #scheme 07:57:42 stepnem [~stepnem@77.78.117.8] has joined #scheme 08:00:55 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:05:25 i don't see any diff. the question would make sense if you were comparing arguments to the two versions of cc instead count-change 08:06:33 I think that's what they meant to write 08:06:54 hmm, "behavior" could include run-time. that might be different 08:07:35 but no, i think it isn't really bec. of what i said earlier 08:29:23 i tested it. it seems count-change-orig takes slightly longer to execute than count-change. so (= kinds-of-coins 0) is triggering more often than (= amount 0), which I guess makes sense 08:29:56 i should say (or (< amount 0) (= kinds-of-coins 0)) 08:40:54 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 08:47:02 -!- _danb_ [~user@203.29.131.142] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:56:56 I gotta run but thanks for the help eliyak 08:57:02 Glad we could put our heads together on that one 08:57:04 c ya 08:57:08 -!- ackpacket [1806ee5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.6.238.95] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:16:25 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 09:20:19 yacks [~py@122.179.33.54] has joined #scheme 09:24:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@176.192.108.238] has joined #scheme 09:25:08 -!- kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [] 09:44:30 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 09:47:58 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 10:23:52 przl [~przlrkt@p5DD15312.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] 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[~hiroaki@ip-178-202-218-254.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20:56:10 hellome [~lua@192.73.239.25] has joined #scheme 21:06:11 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-218-254.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 21:17:25 -!- snits [~snits@inet-hqmc02-o.oracle.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:22:41 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:04 snits [~snits@75-167-3-97.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #scheme 21:23:08 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 21:28:11 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:29:00 TravisD [~travis@S01060007e9c4da34.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:30:38 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Quit: mgodshall] 21:38:23 chrisirc [~chrisirc@static.206.51.47.78.clients.your-server.de] has joined #scheme 21:38:42 -!- snits [~snits@75-167-3-97.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:39:17 Hi. Why is fold{,-left,-right} called fold...? What's the exact image? 21:39:50 I get that it's like folding something up, but how does the right and left come to be chosed that way? 21:40:08 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 21:40:18 snits [~snits@inet-hqmc01-o.oracle.com] has joined #scheme 21:40:22 chosen 21:42:22 chrisirc: It's basically fold *from* left or right, not to. 21:42:37 Which keeps confusing me because "fold right" really just sounds to me like "fold to right" 21:43:31 What helps me remember is that Scheme calls fold-left just "fold" because it's the iterative (tail-recursive) one, whereas the (non-tail) recursive (thus more memory-expensive) one is given its full name, fold-right. 21:44:21 Yeah, I've used them so long that my thinking process is automatic. 21:44:38 But I just wondered how I would explain the naming to someone. 21:44:48 Fold-left processes the leftmost item first. 21:44:52 Fold-right processes the rightmost item first. 21:46:04 Thing is, the left/right is kept in Haskell (right?), where the evaluation order is different. 21:46:23 Haskell calls them foldl and foldr. 21:46:43 Yes, with foldl being Scheme's fold and foldr being Scheme's fold-right, right? 21:46:47 Right. 21:46:49 The order of arguments is different, but that's all. 21:46:53 With the arguments to the function reversed in one of them. 21:47:00 yep. 21:47:31 Now in Haskell foldr will evaluate from the left, too, when looking at the lowlevel evaluation, due to its lazyness. 21:47:52 laziness 21:48:13 Yes, but the item that gets combined with the first seed is the rightmost item. 21:48:24 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 21:48:33 Ok, good point. 21:49:21 Yeah, that's the essence. 21:52:46 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:54:35 http://foldl.com/ and http://foldr.com/ come in handy 21:56:25 -!- TravisD [~travis@S01060007e9c4da34.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:56:43 That doesn't explain left vs right, as the source list seems to be the infinite ones list. 21:57:02 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:57:14 TravisD [~travis@S01060007e9c4da34.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:57:35 Neither does it show the function passed to the fold. (The only difference between foldl.com and foldr.com is the argument order to +, 21:57:36 chrisirc: it illustrates being left versus right associative 21:58:02 -!- TravisD [~travis@S01060007e9c4da34.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:58:20 but this could be an artifact of whether there's a flip involved before the +, or whether it's Haskell or Scheme style fold definitions. 21:58:31 <`^_^v> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Right-fold-transformation.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Left-fold-transformation.png this might help 21:58:41 pjdelport, and what does this really have to do with fold? 21:58:45 the flip in haskell makes it a little clearer that foldl associates to the left 21:58:47 TravisD [~travis@S01060007e9c4da34.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #scheme 21:59:34 Another way to think of it is that foldr is the right one to use in Haskell, and foldl is the lwrong one. 21:59:35 What is the scheme implementation with the best support for scientific computing? I'm looking for a fast and relatively complete linear algebra library and some plotting tools. 22:00:09 <`^_^v> foldr isn't always the right one, if you can get away with foldl' you can have constant stack space 22:00:10 TravisD, probably scmutils, although you won't find anything like gsl, lapack, or blas. 22:00:28 Riastradh: That is for mit-scheme? 22:00:31 Yes. 22:00:43 the name fold itself is at least 20 years old, but I can't an original cite 22:00:45 `^_^v, yeah, but foldl is definitely lwrong. 22:01:14 Riastradh: Do you know what kind of speed decrease I'd be looking at over something with lapack and blas bindings? 22:01:25 No, sorry. 22:01:30 "The name 'foldr' is unfortunate for a right-to-left computation, but is well established" [Bird 95] 22:01:37 no problem, thanks for the advice :) 22:01:47 When I've had to do (very simple) linear algebra stuff, MIT Scheme has usually been good enough for me. 22:02:36 Yeah, if it's only a few times slower I would be completely okay with that 22:02:52 Certainly it was stupidly faster than Octave and Matlab. 22:03:01 -!- AkashicLegend [~AkashicLe@unaffiliated/akashiclegend] has quit [Quit: AkashicLegend] 22:03:55 I used and for my linear algebra purposes. Gerry has done a lot more for scmutils, but I don't know whether it has good unboxed matrix arithmetic code like that. 22:05:04 Ah okay. I have never done any serious programming in scheme, but I'm interested in FP and I think it'd be a fun way to implement some of my experiments 22:06:03 "theorems for free" pushes the name back to before 89 22:06:18 FP as in functional programming or floating-point arithmetic? 22:06:27 oh, functional programming 22:06:57 floating-point arithmetic is probably also an interesting topic, and one that I should know more about, lol. I hear there are some pretty terrifying traps to fall into if you're not aware 22:06:57 TravisD, there's "Harlan" in case you need very high performance. 22:08:15 (Or the FFIs in most implementations to write your own bindings to lapack etc.) 22:08:47 chrisirc: looks cool. How far is it from scheme? 22:09:22 `Harlan requires an OpenCL implementation as well as Petite Chez Scheme.' So no good if you want to deal in free software, apparently. 22:09:39 Yeah, too bad Chez Scheme is not free 22:10:16 I installed Chez to try it, but didn't actually need it for my work in the end. 22:10:22 but anyways, extreme performance is not a requirement. The GPU stuff is pretty interesting though. I just recently built a computer with an AMD R9 270x, which is the first card I've ever had with OpenCL support 22:13:06 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-099-232-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:13:16 You should read `What Every Computer Scientist Should Know about Floating-Point' by David Goldberg, read something about numerical analysis (the GTM yellow book _Numerical Analysis_ by Rainer Kress is pretty good), and let me know if you have any questions about using MIT Scheme, particularly if you need help with floating-point stuff or making it fast. 22:13:25 But right now I have to run. 22:13:45 Alright, thanks! 22:13:48 (You can email me too -- username campbell at the hostname mumble dot net.) 22:13:50 *poof* 22:17:59 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:20:01 TravisD: Racket has a pretty good math library, and an *amazing* plot library. 22:20:14 It's got interactive zooming, etc. 22:20:53 -!- amgarching [~amgarchin@p4FD63220.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 22:21:01 stamourv: Ah, cool - I've been playing around with Racket a bit, but I got the impression that it was primarily a learning tool 22:21:37 It's certainly got a lot of nice things for teaching, but that's not all it does. 22:22:09 It's a general purpose language, with a pretty large, high-quality standard library. 22:22:20 Ah, and is it Scheme? Or a variant? 22:23:16 I have been pretty seriously considering reading "The Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics". Seems like that would be a fun read and a good introduction to scmutils 22:23:27 but also a lot to do before starting on anything practical :P 22:25:17 Racket is a descendent of Scheme. 22:25:31 It's got all the nice things people like about Scheme, and more. 22:25:50 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-178-202-218-254.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:26:12 It also includes (strict) implementations of the Scheme standards. 22:26:19 ah, I see 22:27:29 chrisirc: asking on #haskell gets me a 1985 paper defining foldr....with no rationale as to why "fold" was chosen :( 22:28:01 c'est la vie 22:28:17 Ok. I would quite expect that the name "fold" was already used in the original Lisp. 22:28:45 blame David Turner 22:37:13 McCarthy's 1960 paper mentions "maplist" but not fold. 22:38:29 there are other similar named procedures called reduce/accumulate/whatever 22:41:52 It doesn't appear to mention anything alike, either. 22:42:27 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Quit: peace] 22:42:43 "LISP 1.5 Programmers Manual", second edition (1985) doesn't mention fold or reduce either. That seems rather strange though. 22:46:25 (Very strangely, it doesn't even contain the word "iterate" or "iteration".) 22:47:13 (Was this whole iteration and folding business really only invented by Sussman & co.?) 22:48:06 apl had a reduce operator iirc, I know backus' FP did 22:51:29 okay, the SASL language manual (1976) mentions fold 22:52:00 (assuming it was not added in the 83 revision) 22:55:39 tadni [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 22:56:59 Gerald Jay Sussman and Guy Lewis Steele, Jr.. "Scheme: An Interpreter for Extended Lambda Calculus" (1975) does not seem to mention them either, although I've skimmed imprecisely and the pdf can't be searched. 22:58:04 Thus so far all leads back to David Turner. 22:58:31 Thanks for the researching. (I should read up on some of those leads.) 22:59:00 we have one further contender, which is R. M. Burstall and J. Darlington, "A Transformation System for Developing Recursive Programs", but I can't verify it for less than $15 22:59:00 22:59:53 hmm, 24 hr access for $3 22:59:54 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 23:00:03 *chrisirc* doesn't have citeseerx access either. 23:01:17 Hey, I've got that paper 23:01:33 ijp, don't pay.. 23:02:25 The link http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.85.645&rep=rep1&type=pdf works for free for me. 23:02:25 http://tinyurl.com/k5w67pd 23:05:38 Doesn't mention reduce or map, and mentions folding and unfolding numerous times but not for the function; will have to read in more detail what they mean there. 23:08:22 yah, I double checked it, and that seems to be the case 23:13:54 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 23:15:13 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #scheme 23:15:15 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:28:37 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:29:01 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:43:28 amgarching [~amgarchin@p4FD63220.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:43:35 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-189-101.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:44:01 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-136-150.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:44:31 -!- tadni [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45:04 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 23:56:20 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF24B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 23:56:51 -!- arubincloud [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nmvzgpmbhojwnchd] has quit []