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timeout: 248 seconds] 17:21:26 certainty [~david@www1.d-coded.de] has joined #scheme 17:23:37 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:23:50 I was reading about how some lisp gurus work......lots of them use lesser languages in their real work like php, C, etc....no surprise there right?.....What was interesting is how many of them write DSLs to generate those "lesser" languages from lisp! 17:24:08 "lesser languages" :P 17:25:41 theseb: where did you read that? I'd be interested in reading that too. 17:25:59 Maybe interesting, but I wouldn't say surpricing.. 17:26:39 Whenever, during my iOS development, I write Objective-C code to interpret some JSON that declares the user-interface or so (which happens often when customers want some control over dynamic contents), I find myself urging to implement variable-references and function-calls for the improvised JSON language. :) 17:27:11 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 17:27:29 mario-goulart: https://leanpub.com/lisphackers/read 17:28:34 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@44.Red-83-42-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:28:45 theseb: oh, nice. Thanks. 17:28:53 taylanub: that sounds like a perfect use case.....your work has you drowning in little languages like ObjC and JSON......why not make a DSL to crank them out! :) 17:29:35 Ogion [~Ogion@44.Red-83-42-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:30:28 If I'd sit down on a serious project to bring Lisp to iOS development, I'd look into Chicken's or so bindings for ObjC; from what I see the ObjC run-time library shouldn't be too hard to jolt onto a Scheme implementation, make ObjC objects be a new primitive type, have the garbage collector call their -dealloc method, etc. etc. 17:31:08 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 17:32:02 taylanub: that would be an attempt to use a scheme run time in iOS.....my suggestion was less ambitious....i was just suggesting macros to hide all the boilerplate of such little languages 17:33:28 I don't think that's less ambitious, anything beyond a superficial sexpr syntax for ObjC will probably require as much effort as simply binding the run-time library to a Scheme implementation. 17:34:09 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:38:51 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:40:05 -!- ggherdov [sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uzagpzwtwpratfit] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 17:48:17 taylanub: there's already MoCL, a CL translator to C, targetting iOS and Android (NTK), for mission critical code (not UI). 17:48:45 Also, ecl works on Android, and can be made to work on iOS. 17:49:05 Of course, there are a lot of scheme implementations on iOS, but AFAIK, none to develop iOS applications. 17:51:34 chicken works on iOS 17:51:42 gambit too 17:52:11 AFAIK, they can be used to develop iOS apps 17:54:30 jao [~jao@12.122.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 17:54:33 -!- jao [~jao@12.122.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Changing host] 17:54:34 jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:54:56 Somebody with some time should to a review of lisp & scheme implementations for/on mobile systems 17:56:30 ggherdov [sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mesncqbcffsqaomb] has joined #scheme 17:56:36 I've never overly seen the point in using non-core languages on mobile systems. They often lag far behind the abilities of the core language(s) there 17:56:48 E.g. if you want to do /anything/ interesting on Android, you have to write Java 17:57:24 <`^_^v> don't they let you write C++ on android too 17:57:27 You can have bindings for java methods 17:57:38 <`^_^v> anyway, it depends on your definition of interesting 18:00:51 Anyway, I don't see why mobile systems should be considered special with regard to the language to program them. 18:03:48 -!- b4283 [~b4283@118.150.144.185] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:14 offby1 [~user@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has joined #scheme 18:07:02 -!- offby1 [~user@ec2-54-215-10-197.us-west-1.compute.amazonaws.com] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:02 offby1 [~user@pdpc/supporter/monthlybyte/offby1] has joined #scheme 18:08:40 LeoNerd: nothing interesting is really done on mobile: people are too afraid of the small computing, memory and energy capabilities of the devices, so they do everything in the servers, and just display results on the mobile. 18:08:46 But one could want a real tricorder 18:09:48 `^_^v: you -could- write C++ if you wanted to, but AAUI you don't have full access to all the system libraries for things, like you do in Java 18:10:15 If you write in Java, you can do anything. If you write in some other language, you can only access those bits of API bindings whoever made that language binding thought to provide you with, and that will always lag behind Java 18:10:21 LeoNerd: that's not true, you can access all of the Java APIs from C/C++ 18:10:28 via JNI 18:11:46 I wouldn't mobile devices are low powered. Nowadays they can have multicore processors and plenty of memory. Most of them can even play video and run web browsers. 18:12:15 s/I wouldn't/I wouldn't say/ 18:13:59 LeoNerd: based on that argument, we'd all writing programs in C or C++ on Unix and on Windows these days. :-) 18:14:59 Er... yes.. we are, largely 18:15:04 Or at least, I am. 18:15:24 Half the times I want to write anything vaguely interesting in Perl, I first have to wrap the C/kernel level bits so I can get at them from Perl 18:16:10 Ok, so now we know what "interesting" means to you. :-) 18:16:57 E.g. I wanted TAP packet capture.. so first I had to wrap PF_PACKET. Then I wanted the PACKET_RX_RING logic. So that was required too... 18:16:58 From that perspective, mobile devices are not different. 18:17:40 mario-goulart: of course. But that sticks to the minds. 18:18:21 It's really too bad they implemented Android in Java. If they had done it in lisp (or even scheme), it would have been a killing. 18:18:42 Yeah, they'd be dead by now. :-) 18:20:00 No, really. Losing those Java "libraries" would be a win, actually. 18:23:32 Hard to tell. They've been very successful with java. 18:27:41 They've been successful by not being C or C++. But it could have been much better. 18:28:48 Based on the lisp success on other end-user domains? :-) 18:29:12 Based on all the defect of Java. 18:29:41 What should they use instead? 18:29:49 Lisp. 18:29:52 :-D 18:31:40 I'll dare to ask again: Based on the lisp success on other end-user domains? :-) 18:32:08 Lisp is VERY successful everywhere it's applied. 18:32:50 http://franz.com/success/ http://www.lispworks.com/success-stories/ 18:33:10 *mario-goulart* returns to the real world 18:33:20 You can start up a company developing a lisp product and sell it for millions or billions to companies like yahoo or google. 18:33:28 in the real world. 18:33:41 s/a lisp product/a product in lisp/ 18:33:46 lol 18:37:29 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 18:46:59 przl [~przlrkt@p57922931.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:47:34 -!- miql [~miql@ip98-165-232-87.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48:49 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:49:13 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 18:53:25 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:56:34 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 18:56:41 pjb: really?! shweet! 18:56:58 pjb: case in point Paul Graham and that other 3 letter co i forgot the name 18:58:30 ITA 19:09:42 LeoNerd: Can Clojure not do everything that Java can, by using the same methods of the same classes etc. ? (Because that's how I'd replace ObjC with Lisp on iOS; make ObjC classes/objects a new data type, which can be used with a `send-message' procedure, maybe add some reader syntax for message-passing, ... C APIs would need special treatment.) 19:15:08 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:16:50 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 19:18:06 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:22:36 turbofail: ITA is like the coolest company evar.....who wouldn't want to write tricky lisp code and make a billion doing it 19:22:42 taylanub: clojure can. But it's not common. It diverges from Common Lisp arbitrarily, for no good reason, and where it earns nothing. Basically, clojure should have been a (ql:quickload :clojure) (use-package :clojure) CL thing. 19:23:41 taylanub: for people that complain about lack of libraries to do X on lisp...i also don't get why they don't just use an implementation on top of the JVM 19:24:03 taylanub: that automagically gives them STANDARD and DOCUMENTED libraries! 19:26:09 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 19:26:33 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.198.185] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:26:37 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 19:28:52 Nisstyre-laptop [~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 19:28:54 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:29:26 -!- Nisstyre-laptop is now known as nisstyre 19:30:09 oxum [~oxum@122.164.28.47] has joined #scheme 19:30:34 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.83.46] has joined #scheme 19:32:48 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 19:37:15 pjb: Right, that wasn't my point, I meant Lisp generally. I presume Kawa should also be able to do anything that Clojure can wrt. calling Java libraries. 19:38:15 Maybe I should become a freelancer Android dev using Kawa, would be less unethical than being an iOS dev, and give me Scheme! :P 19:41:06 taylanub: why is iOS dev 'unethical'? 19:41:32 i tried using kawa once. it's kind of a weird scheme 19:41:47 -!- add^_ [~user@m213-101-23-176.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:42:14 theseb: Because I agree with the free software ideals (as described by the FSF). I'm just a huge hypocrit. :P 19:42:57 turbofail: The JVM cripples it IIRC, even tail-calls are an optional feature because performance isn't good with them IIRC. 19:42:57 add^_ [~user@m213-101-23-176.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 19:43:38 yeah full TCO is optional. by default it'll at least figure out tail recursions 19:43:48 i think 19:43:59 taylanub: oh heh...me too....i believe in FOSS 19:44:10 Hrm, indeed, I'd expect that. Not even being able to use named-let would be weird. 19:44:31 taylanub: sadly android is becoming less and less FOSS 19:44:51 taylanub: all the parts people are about are proprietary...maps, search, and more and more of the apps now 19:44:59 theseb: Beware; many people (even most, in my experience) who think they know the FSF ideals don't really know them that well. 19:45:56 maps have always been relatively proprietary 19:46:03 and search 19:46:14 they've always had to hit google's servers in order to do anything 19:47:00 also a lot of the default apps kind of suck. the e-mail client in particular is kind of a piece of shit 19:47:01 turbofail: google is slowly replacing other open source apps with proprietary ones 19:47:16 so you're better off replacing that with one of the open source ones anyway 19:48:38 turbofail: reminds me of when Randall from xkcd did a talk at google and he mentioned how he scraped gmaps (against the TOS) 19:49:22 turbofail: on the other hand at least you can download the ngrams data (all hundreds of terabytes of it) 19:49:58 ha 19:50:31 turbofail: microsoft has something similar and you have to email them for permission and it's through a web api 19:50:44 and you're only allowed one concurrent request 19:51:01 you mean they have their own n-grams dataset? 19:51:06 yes 19:51:15 on the other hand you can do conditional entropy with it easily 19:51:24 which you can't on ngrams 19:57:40 sung_ [sung@2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:feae:bf62] has joined #scheme 19:57:49 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 20:01:28 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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