00:04:57 -!- Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:06:36 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 00:09:07 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 00:09:41 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:12:33 -!- duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:15:32 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:17:03 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 00:21:56 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:24:28 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 00:31:03 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 00:32:43 Tyler [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 00:33:07 -!- Tyler is now known as Guest46459 00:35:58 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:37:30 -!- Guest46459 [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:49 quizdr [~user@cm179.sigma8.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 00:40:07 -!- hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:47:15 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:49:43 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:07:06 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:09:04 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 01:12:02 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 01:13:27 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:19:35 -!- jao` [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:20:22 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 01:22:00 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.171.114] has quit [Quit: Bye..] 01:25:43 eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #scheme 01:25:43 -!- eli [~eli@lambda.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 01:25:43 eli [~eli@racket/eli] has joined #scheme 01:32:00 duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 01:33:16 jcowan [~John@earth.ccil.org] has joined #scheme 01:33:40 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 01:36:50 republican_devil [cebe4f83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.190.79.131] has joined #scheme 01:36:53 yeah 01:40:49 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:43:17 hoi 01:45:43 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 01:58:54 -!- republican_devil is now known as gavino_depressed 01:58:56 :( 01:59:16 -!- duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00:38 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 02:01:24 anyone hanging out today? 02:13:22 hello 02:14:43 hi 02:15:20 do you guys used both lisp and scheme? 02:15:38 scheme in here 02:15:44 lisp in #lisp 02:16:23 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:16:26 talking about lisp in comparison with scheme not allowed? 02:16:53 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 02:16:56 i can ask talk about lisp in #lisp (in fact I do) 02:17:12 i'm curious about people's experience who have used both. 02:18:05 scoofy: go for it 02:18:11 do you have any specific questions? 02:26:25 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 02:34:15 nisstyre [~y@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 02:37:05 No problem comparing Common Lisp with Scheme. Definitely a problem with CL advocacy here, though. 02:38:16 I am being laid off in 30 days, so I'm looking for work either in NYC or by telecommuting. 02:38:25 in or around, I should say 02:38:51 jcowan: that sucks, you could always find a startup to work at for a while until you find a real job 02:39:09 Suggestions?' 02:39:52 justinleitgeb [~justinlei@186.4.224.10] has joined #scheme 02:39:59 jcowan: I don't know about NYC sorry 02:40:27 or, really much anywhere else. The place I used to work at prefers people to be in person 02:40:55 Most places do 02:41:30 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 02:41:43 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 02:43:43 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 02:43:55 -!- quizdr [~user@cm179.sigma8.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:44:25 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 02:48:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:48:38 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@71.175.107.141] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 02:52:04 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 03:02:27 Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xlvorbinnmsrckzb] has joined #scheme 03:02:27 -!- jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: jhao] 03:08:20 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 03:08:20 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 03:23:36 jhao [~junhao@pool-72-76-190-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 03:28:56 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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[~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:14:26 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 08:16:10 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:17:51 Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #scheme 08:28:55 gup [ad3cc922@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.60.201.34] has joined #scheme 08:29:06 -!- gup is now known as chaotic_good 08:29:42 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 08:35:35 -!- nisstyre [~y@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 08:37:16 -!- chaotic_good is now known as azathoth99 08:41:50 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 08:46:11 -!- jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:47:21 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 08:52:40 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 08:55:48 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 08:56:50 nisstyre [~y@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 08:59:24 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809232.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 09:05:37 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05:44 bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 09:06:13 -!- Fare [fare@nat/google/x-xlvorbinnmsrckzb] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:06:47 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809232.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:08:33 -!- bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:08:59 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 09:12:06 dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 09:22:03 whats the difference between a regular and hygenic macro? 09:22:40 cleatoma [~cleatoma@host31-52-140-136.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 09:24:09 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 09:27:17 azathoth99: hygienic macros prevent you from accidentally messing with your environment 09:28:07 -!- azathoth99 [ad3cc922@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.60.201.34] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 09:29:56 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygienic_macro 09:30:00 that explains it nicely 09:43:48 przl_ [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 09:44:55 -!- nisstyre [~y@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:46:42 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 09:48:08 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 09:48:34 -!- Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:57:51 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:00:16 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 10:07:13 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:09:08 jewel [~jewel@41.53.146.168] has joined #scheme 10:10:56 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 10:12:34 Hrm, is the reason EVAL and APPLY are given such significance in tradition that in the simplest lambda calculus implementation you have APPLY call EVAL on the lambda body ? 10:13:48 These are somewhat unrelated to the `eval' and `apply' procedures you might have in the resulting language; rather said EVAL and APPLY are the procedures in the "host language" that implement the implemented language. 10:14:47 Why did I wait so long before implementing a minimal Scheme in Scheme, it really is illuminating. :P 10:15:03 Kneferilis [~Kneferili@nb1-210.static.cytanet.com.cy] has joined #scheme 10:15:19 b4283 [~b4283@36-238-132-225.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 10:15:39 I always found it odd how much significance eval and apply are given, say on the SICP cover, now I look at my code and suddenly realize I have an eval and an apply that call each other! 10:17:38 -!- jewel [~jewel@41.53.146.168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:34:47 Nizumzen 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has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 15:35:31 trc [~vishesh@103.30.140.115] has joined #scheme 15:35:48 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809211.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 15:37:10 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 15:38:57 visualshock [~visualsho@host-37-191-204-89.lynet.no] has joined #scheme 15:40:06 -!- sethalves is now known as sethAway 15:40:23 Hi, is it possible to return -1 when a number is negative, 0 if zero and 1 if positive, using only and and or? 15:41:16 visualshock: no 15:41:50 yes 15:41:52 it is 15:41:54 ! 15:41:59 how so? 15:42:41 since only #f is false, how would you do any case differentiation with just and/or and numbers? 15:42:55 http://bpaste.net/show/9juk0pfSQm0Ho3kGzB7I/ spoiler alert 15:43:05 well 15:43:14 it does use negative?/positive?/zero?, which was included the last time visualshock asked this :) 15:43:18 that's using negative?, positive?, and zero? 15:43:29 I see, hehe 15:43:34 ECONTEXT 15:43:41 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 15:43:42 without those it would be impossible 15:44:21 *DerGuteMoritz* picks up his shred of sanity again 15:44:31 that'y my last one, mind you! 15:44:38 better not lose it then :P 15:46:16 elly, thanks. Never thought of doing (or (and), I always tried (or (something? x) 15:46:23 hehe 15:46:24 hiroakip [~hiroaki@bi1.roaming.dfn.de] has joined #scheme 15:46:49 remember: and returns the last argument it is given if all its arguments are true; or returns the first argument it has that is true 15:46:55 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:47:08 so (and (condition? thing) thing) is thing if (condition? thing) and #f otherwise 15:47:12 a useful idiom :) 15:47:59 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 15:49:06 jewel [~jewel@105-236-88-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 15:49:08 I'll try to remember that ;) 15:49:56 that's a bit weird and non-obvious elly 15:50:07 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 15:50:09 I don't know if I like it 15:50:48 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@bi1.roaming.dfn.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:51:19 personal preference, but I would rather read (cond ((condition? thing) thing) (else #f)) 15:51:23 what's non-obvious about it? 15:51:44 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.27.11] has joined #scheme 15:51:46 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 15:52:01 the fact that you had to explain it rather than the code telling you 15:52:03 *SwashBuckla* shrugs 15:52:09 again it's a personal preference 15:52:11 sure 15:52:24 *elly* uses (and ...) all over the place :P 15:53:22 I am quite fresh to scheme, having only worked through The Little Schemer 15:53:28 which I love by the way 15:53:39 I am now moving on to The Seasoned Schemer 15:53:48 excellent 15:53:48 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 15:53:59 where do you use Scheme elly ? 15:54:03 for fun :) 15:54:07 :) 15:54:28 it is fun to use 15:54:35 yeah :) 15:54:44 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:54:46 at work I end up using C++, so scheme is a bit of a refuge 15:55:06 :P 15:55:34 I imagine you cursing your boss at the end of the day: "I'm going home to use scheme, and there's nothing you can do about it!" 15:55:35 short-circuiting and is a pretty common thing in other languages, too 15:56:59 in python things like: self._x = x or somedefaultvalue are pretty idiomatic 15:57:23 ternary statements in C/Java I am familiar with and encourage 15:57:52 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:57:55 well, (and (pred? x) x) is just pred?(x) ? x : #f 15:58:15 the ternary operator is closer to Scheme's if though 15:58:19 yes 15:58:21 yes 15:58:40 (and (pred? x) x) is more like pred(x) && x 15:58:43 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 15:58:45 yeah 15:58:53 is that valid C actually? 15:58:56 D: 15:59:00 syntactically yes 15:59:03 I mean, does that reutrn x? 15:59:04 it won't do what you want though 15:59:05 no 15:59:06 oh well 15:59:12 doesn't work with the type system, of course 15:59:15 but in python pred(x) and x works 15:59:18 but in JS you can do it like that 15:59:49 except that it would short-circuit for undefined, null, false, and 0 15:59:50 -!- cleatoma [~cleatoma@host31-52-140-136.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:59:58 :P 16:00:00 and probably a host more :-D 16:00:01 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00:04 interesting truthiness 16:00:15 yeah, javascript has unprincipled notions of truth 16:00:22 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 16:00:34 compulsive liarscript 16:00:41 haha 16:02:27 -!- sethAway is now known as seth 16:02:35 -!- seth is now known as sethalves 16:06:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-88-77.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:10:26 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@c-69-242-48-55.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 16:11:17 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 16:15:55 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 16:17:37 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:20:10 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:26:03 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:27:28 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:27:44 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 16:34:22 pierpa [~user@host106-247-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 16:38:45 ecraven [~user@www.nexoid.at] has joined #scheme 16:39:45 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 16:44:53 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.208.66.22] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 16:48:11 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 16:54:29 -!- b4283 [~b4283@36-238-132-225.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55:57 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:27 possible to define functions that don't last forever? ....e.g. suppose you refactored a big function into lots of little ones you didn't want to be visible everywhere? 16:59:45 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:01:41 so backquote basically just appends "list" after all left parens and quotes everything that doesn't have a comma in front? 17:04:29 rudybot: (define (now-you-see-me x) (define (now-you-dont y) x) (now-you-dont 3)) 17:04:30 stamourv: Done. 17:04:36 rudybot: (now-you-see-me 2) 17:04:37 stamourv: ; Value: 2 17:04:42 rudybot: (now-you-dont 2) 17:04:42 stamourv: error: now-you-dont: undefined; cannot reference an identifier before its definition in module: 'program 17:09:28 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 17:09:44 so your sating your could replace 20 people and 1 millionhardware with 20,000 server and a scheme interpreter and get better results? 17:13:05 stamourv: wait....so inner defines are not global....what about a define inside a lambda body? i think that will NOT be hidden right? 17:14:27 theseb: Nope, hidden as well. 17:14:38 Same for those in `let's, et.c 17:15:09 The one exception would be those in splicing `begin's but don't worry about that. 17:15:50 stamourv: wait...did you mean a define inside a begin inside a lambda would NOT be hidden? 17:16:01 In schemes without module systems, internal definitions are used to compensate for the lack of a module system. 17:16:09 It's no real substitute, though. 17:16:25 stamourv: what is a "splicing" begin? 17:16:42 theseb: That define would be local to the lambda (assuming a splicing begin). 17:16:59 It's a begin that splices its contents in the enclosing scope. 17:17:32 Basically, when you have a `begin' that's not in an expression context (where only a single expression is allowed) it will splice. 17:19:35 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 17:19:50 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:20:17 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:21:16 stamourv: hmmm i wrote a lisp interpreter and my inner defines were global....must be a bug in MY code then 17:22:20 if your define behaves like that, why not 17:22:29 it's just different, not necessarily a bug 17:22:39 e.g. clojure's def also establishes global bindings 17:22:45 no matter where it's placed 17:23:12 Err. That would be problematic when the inner definition closes over the arguments of the outer one. 17:23:32 yeah, it's not a very good idea IMHO :-) 17:23:50 Every time you "improve" lexical scope, Guy Steele kills a kitten. 17:23:57 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:24:01 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:24:24 stamourv: i was thinking about our discussion of best way to teach intro classes.....scheme or something like pyret......don't you find it a little odd that it is 2014 and we still don't know for sure best way to teach programming? you'd think after DECADES of experience we'd AT LEAST nail that by now 17:24:35 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 17:25:03 stamourv: yes here we were in 2014 yesterday STILL discussing whether S exp are harmful to newbies 17:25:15 lol 17:25:34 s/yes/yet 17:25:34 We still don't really know how to teach math. And it's been around for a few more millenia. 17:25:46 I figured out how to get A in math 17:25:59 even calculus 17:26:11 do problem using howto in book 17:26:15 stamourv: ok..as a math teacher i must concur....ok you win :) 17:26:17 then put piece of paper over howto and do again 17:26:28 cheat if have to 17:26:34 when can do problem without moving sheet 17:26:39 move to next problem type 17:26:47 a test has baout 12 problem types 17:26:49 easy A 17:27:07 theseb: Have you read Lockhart's lament? 17:27:15 stamourv: YES! great paper 17:27:18 i bought his book too 17:28:01 stamourv: i'm crystallizing a vision in my head of a curriculum that integrates math and programming 17:28:21 stamourv: we may have talked about this.....Stephen Wolfram's brother is big into it tooo 17:29:18 programming basically forces you not to BS anything...you need to understand things correctly.....the idea is to have students program math skills to clear their thinking 17:29:43 could work in physics too 17:31:53 Re curriculum with math and programming: http://www.bootstrapworld.org/ 17:32:07 Using programming to teach algebra in inner-city schools. Reall cool work. 17:38:17 arubin [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqrnvgzdkvfwkfkz] has joined #scheme 17:39:49 ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #scheme 17:45:31 stamourv: ever heard of Scratch? another attempt at innovation in programming pedigogy 17:46:44 Yep. Heard of it. 17:46:57 Some nice ideas, but has a pretty low ceiling. 17:48:41 huh, I never knew about WeScheme 17:49:38 http://www.wescheme.org 17:49:40 check that out :) 17:50:46 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:50:51 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 17:53:09 oh wow, neat 17:53:23 if you log in you can share links to programs, and it has built-in unit test support with the (EXAMPLE) form 17:53:27 that is so cool 17:55:37 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:57:40 I wish scheme had www.prevayler.org implementation 17:57:42 :) 17:58:02 I think I might have to start plugging WeScheme for people learning scheme now 17:58:51 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 18:01:13 Yep, WeScheme is pretty cool. 18:01:27 Based on the (also very cool) whalesong Racket to JS compiler. 18:02:12 hrm, this is racket underneath? 18:02:45 is this actually passing the program to the server to compile, then? 18:02:47 it's not quite clear 18:03:31 yes, it looks like it is 18:06:00 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 18:06:04 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06:31 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 18:07:11 theseb: you know acl2 don't you? 18:07:22 jao` [~jao@199.162.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #scheme 18:07:25 -!- jao` [~jao@199.162.14.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Changing host] 18:07:25 jao` [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 18:08:07 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:08:11 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.117.30] has joined #scheme 18:17:34 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 18:23:03 pjb: no i do not..what is that? 18:23:18 gavino_depressed: what Scheme needs is an IDE as good as SLIME :/ 18:24:28 rudybot: (define-syntax (foo stx) #'"test") 18:24:30 theseb: your sandbox is ready 18:24:30 theseb: Done. 18:24:42 HEY!! wait..why does racket like it but guile barfs on it? 18:24:48 scheme@(guile-user)> (define-syntax (foo stx) #'"test") 18:24:48 While compiling expression: 18:24:48 ERROR: Syntax error: 18:24:48 unknown file:1:0: source expression failed to match any pattern in form (define-syntax (foo stx) (syntax "test")) 18:27:20 racket and guile are not the same language 18:28:42 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 18:28:50 in particular, guile's define-syntax doesn't allow (iirc) the shorthand (head args) form that racket does 18:28:58 see http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/define.html#%28form._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fbase..rkt%29._define-syntax%29%29 and http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Defining-Macros.html#Defining-Macros respectively 18:28:59 http://tinyurl.com/kn4h69t 18:28:59 http://tinyurl.com/lmnmsxo 18:29:04 thanks rudybot, you are a big help 18:29:23 -!- ggrant [~user@75-132-18-215.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:30:14 -!- fantazo [~fantazo@213.129.230.10] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 18:31:27 generally it is best not to be surprised by incompatibilities between the two :) 18:37:31 rudybot: this is a SCHEME channel jerk 18:37:34 theseb: shut up jerk 18:37:38 rudybot: same to you 18:37:38 theseb: Who cares about window titles anyway? Unless you have more than one instance of the same application open ofcourse. 18:38:08 um ok 18:38:28 haha 18:38:33 rudybot: botsnack 18:38:33 mmm ... cheesesteak ... 18:42:33 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:42:44 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 18:42:54 this 'example' form from wescheme is actually a cute macro 18:45:49 http://bpaste.net/show/hWJvom8BxGfbY5jZAfPv/ 18:49:22 I love the net and free software!!!! 18:49:38 scheme seems to have an ability to create anything any other language has 18:49:39 wow 18:49:43 just kick butt 18:49:49 now 18:49:56 can scheme use 24 cpu boxes? 18:50:01 yes 18:50:02 whats its multiprocessing capability? 18:50:18 ho do I write a scheme program to like utilize 24 cpu? 18:50:19 depends on the implementation; read the docs 18:50:23 hm 18:55:25 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 18:56:34 aranhoide [~smuxi@93.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 18:58:14 now what ARE continuations? do they let you use 24 cpu? 18:58:30 keep state where it was before take and action 19:04:23 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06:01 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:06:37 gavino_depressed: hvae your read any docs or are you looking for complete beginners tutorial? 19:10:29 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:11:03 beginner better 19:13:43 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:13:45 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:14:42 theseb: no, gavino has spent at least the last ten years NOT learning anything about lisp. 19:17:36 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 19:18:08 tupi [~user@189.60.18.38] has joined #scheme 19:18:16 camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 19:18:35 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:18:48 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 19:19:07 I wasnt trying, life simply got in the way 19:19:12 IM still fascinated 19:19:47 reading about how you cna build python genertators in scheme, instead of wiating for python people to add them to the language 19:19:51 kinda inspiring 19:20:56 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:22:22 gavino_depressed, you don't need to wait for anything, just build it by your own when you need something ( re both python and scheme ) 19:25:21 so say I want to make a basic website, and build an html input form, and save data in files 19:25:30 I can do all that in schme? 19:26:01 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 19:32:23 -!- dzhus[afk] is now known as dzhus 19:34:49 You can do anything in Scheme :) 19:35:01 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:35:20 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:36:32 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:36:45 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:38:02 except for prevayler 19:38:07 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:38:43 DerGuteMoritz: You could do that as well, if you were inclined to and had the resources :) 19:38:49 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:39:25 ecraven: no, it is explicitly prohibited in the reports 19:39:49 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:40:42 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 19:40:46 section 8.1: "It is an error to implement a system like the one documented at www.prevayler.org in the Scheme programming language." 19:42:54 So it's just unspecified. 19:42:59 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43:33 oops! 19:43:44 well, R8RS will fix that! 19:44:26 is this "good" scheme code? http://pastebin.com/qxjr7fD7 19:44:36 Would you guys have done it any different? 19:45:43 visualshock: looks fine, but I would prefer a named-let over inner define 19:45:57 matter of taste, though! 19:46:31 aaand back 19:46:48 *elly* reads visualshock's example 19:47:01 I too would use a named let 19:47:19 but if you use inner define, the body of it should be indented more I think 19:47:26 indent however emacs does :) 19:47:27 yeah indentation is a bit off 19:47:38 I haven't learned let yet, but I will check it out later 19:47:43 otherwise it looks fine to me 19:47:52 ahh, named-let is a more canonical way of writing loops like that 19:47:57 C-u M-q 19:48:24 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 19:49:05 I just dr.racket 19:49:08 use* 19:49:19 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:50:09 visualshock: DrRacket also does auto indentation, if you press tab. 19:50:51 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60046.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:51:22 that's what I normally do, but I might have hitted space or something. 19:52:47 anyway, your code looks otherwise good 19:52:56 because I'm this kind of person I would write some unit tests and put them with it :) 19:54:34 (if you are using racket, the 'rackunit' module can do this; otherwise there are tons of other ones of varying portability) 19:55:40 elly, I think I need to learn the basic of Scheme first, like named-let ;) 19:55:50 mm, unit tests are not complex 19:56:47 Everything is complex until the contrary is proven 19:57:08 hold on them :) 19:58:07 scheme os be sikkk 19:58:10 :) 20:00:15 the schemeunit wiki page has a dizzying array of unit-test frameworks 20:00:44 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00:55 but I pastebinned an example earlier of rackunit :) 20:01:02 http://bpaste.net/show/hWJvom8BxGfbY5jZAfPv/ 20:01:06 visualshock: ^ that's how easy it is 20:01:22 write a couple of (example) forms with every function, and now you have machine-checked documentation! 20:04:18 rackunit + typed/racket is a great way to keep yourself "honest", as a programmer 20:05:29 http://bpaste.net/show/DriKrn6uU77FyCwPDMyP/ 20:05:31 elly, i'll add it to the todolearn list 20:05:46 that's with the test egg! 20:05:56 visualshock: I would learn to unit test sooner rather than later; it will make all future learning easier 20:05:58 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.18.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:06:25 unfortunately the examples I have of this technique "in production" are complex 20:06:34 http://bpaste.net/show/LmoUwIYzcT2K8kb59shd/ 20:06:39 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:06:48 using typed/racket and typed/rackunit to get compile-time typechecking and unit tests :) 20:09:23 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:10:45 -!- visualshock [~visualsho@host-37-191-204-89.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:17:31 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 20:17:35 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:15 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:25:26 dreamdust [~dreamdust@unaffiliated/dreamdust] has joined #scheme 20:26:48 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809211.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:28:49 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:28:52 any scheme implementation that has taken the node.js idea and ran with it? essentially async io based on libuv event loop for the standard lib? 20:31:04 node.js aka cps-by-hand.js? :-) 20:31:33 :) 20:32:04 dreamdust: racket's "continue" web framework maybe? 20:32:08 well seems like a fun idea to me scheme bindings to libuv 20:32:45 you could write them using some ffi if you wanted 20:32:57 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:33:00 chibi scheme's standard library I/O stuff uses an event-loop under the hood in order to work with its green threads 20:33:51 not quite the same thing but it's close 20:33:56 yeah lots of scheme implementations implenent an event loop to do green threads but that's different than what libuv has done 20:34:40 not really 20:34:51 libuv a low-level building block for green threads 20:35:52 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20:38:47 -!- camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:39:22 camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 20:44:05 -!- camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:19 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:53:54 -!- dreamdust [~dreamdust@unaffiliated/dreamdust] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:54:15 dreamdust [~dreamdust@unaffiliated/dreamdust] has joined #scheme 20:54:58 foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-098-065-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #scheme 20:56:21 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 20:56:25 -!- metasyntax [~tvenable@proxy5.med-web.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:56:36 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:00:37 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:02:18 Is there a list of strategies for how one can implement hygienic procedural macros ? 21:02:57 camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #scheme 21:03:13 probly! 21:03:59 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 21:05:06 Or is there at least a comprehensive list of end-user hygienic macro systems ? The ones I know so far: syntax-rules, [reverse] syntactic closures, implicit/explicit renaming, syntax-case, SRFI-72 21:05:41 call-cc.org is a cool one to check out 21:08:58 -!- camelCaseIsUgly [~camelcase@ip68-8-74-224.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [] 21:09:21 -!- gavino_depressed is now known as oily_tits 21:16:19 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 21:19:55 that guy is tripping 21:21:21 -!- oily_tits is now known as silky_globes 21:25:20 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 21:27:38 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:27:52 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 21:28:58 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 21:28:59 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:30:04 according to the Worse Is Better crowd....continuations are the death knell of scheme since hard to implement 21:30:05 iirc 21:31:03 I should try implementing delimited continuations in my toy-pseudo-Scheme .. but cleaning up the code and finishing the hygienic macro system first. 21:31:57 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 21:34:48 i'm curious about opinions. macros for controls operators first then continuations on top of this? 21:36:26 taylanub: this one might be interesting to you, too: http://pereckerdal.com/2012/11/27/hygienic-lisp-1-macros-no-phd/ 21:37:27 how about porting www.prevayler.org to scheme 21:38:00 that isn't allowed 21:39:12 theseb: well then 21:40:48 DerGuteMoritz: and the fact that you can have two different symbols with the same name is just odd  this is plain wrong. The symbol is exactly the same, EQ. 21:41:18 I know what the guy means, but the wording isn't very fortunate :) 21:41:47 theseb: Re continuations hard to implement: That's true, and that may deter some amateur implementers. But I don't see how you go from that to death knell. 21:42:23 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 21:42:27 stamourv: well Worse Is Better says simplicity of implementation is EVERYTHING if you want world domination 21:42:28 antoszka: That sounds more like uninterned symbols (but yeah, that's obviously not what they meant). 21:42:54 antoszka: heh, well, caveat emptor 21:43:53 theseb: That was truer back when it the essay was written than it is now. 21:44:06 theseb: sounds like a boring opinion 21:44:15 Look at how many popular languages out there have a single implementation. 21:45:13 a single and definitive implementation 21:47:36 hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #scheme 21:49:10 DerGuteMoritz: Ugh, the system described on that page still requires explicit gensym ?.. 21:52:09 taylanub: yeah, it's kind of half-way between ER and IR macros 21:52:21 taylanub: but the implementation is rather straight forward 21:52:58 stamourv: hmmm....well i'm not sure why in 70's and 80's it mattered more...let's say someone wrote commonlisp or scheme in C.....seems you could just as easily port that to new hardware and/or have 1 implementation for all 21:53:00 To me SRFI-72 sounded like the "perfect" solution really .. 21:53:25 stamourv: i.e. not sure why in 70s and 80s everyone and their brother had to write their own compilers 21:53:26 Unless I misinterpreted something in it .. I didn't have enough energy to delve into it at full. 21:53:55 (But found enough energy to start playing with an implementation of how I interpreted it, because that's fun. :P) 21:54:14 theseb: remember that every human starts from scratch basically 21:54:42 sad0ur [~sad0ur@ip-89-102-144-158.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #scheme 21:54:52 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:55:00 theseb: Many reasons. A big one being the large number of machine architectures around. 21:57:21 stamourv: hmmm good to know...plus today a new language can simply target a VM like the JVM....problem solved 22:01:12 "simply" ;-) 22:05:42 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-179-235.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:47 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 22:15:23 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 22:21:16 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: bye!] 22:21:28 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 22:25:46 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 22:26:19 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.27.11] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:27:29 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:27:37 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 22:32:27 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:36:31 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD90FA6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:36:57 taylanub [tub@p4FD919DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:37:05 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.171.114] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:37:18 -!- silky_globes [cebe4f83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.190.79.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:38:05 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@ip-5-147-121-166.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:40:58 -!- dzhus is now known as dzhus[afk] 22:47:28 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD919DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:47:47 taylanub [tub@p4FD919DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:50:44 -!- foeniks [~fevon@dslb-188-098-065-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] 22:51:59 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:01:18 -!- arubin [uid489@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wqrnvgzdkvfwkfkz] has quit [] 23:09:06 Ugh, stupid, my code thus far was not implementing hygienic macros at all! 23:13:31 So finally we have the answer to your yesterday question. :-) 23:13:42 hehe 23:14:16 nisstyre [~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 23:14:35 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@93.Red-79-158-61.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:15:40 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:16:05 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:16:15 arubin [~textual@99-114-192-172.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #scheme 23:17:13 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.117.30] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:15 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:21:03 oxum [~oxum@122.164.120.248] has joined #scheme 23:27:28 juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #scheme 23:31:59 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:05 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@80.174.182.96.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:37:13 -!- dzhus[afk] [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:39:10 -!- ohama [ohama@cicolina.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:41 -!- trc [~vishesh@103.30.140.115] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:44:35 trc [~vishesh@103.30.140.115] has joined #scheme 23:52:26 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-160.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:53:12 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-153-124.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 23:56:36 ASau` [~user@p5083D448.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme