00:00:10 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFE351.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 00:01:10 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:01:25 acarrico [~acarrico@hunt-sting-2-164.greenmountainaccess.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:04 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:02:38 gavino, go away 00:07:43 why 00:13:55 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 00:15:15 quizdr [~user@cm179.sigma8.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 00:16:58 aranhoide [~smuxi@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:18:01 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@hunt-sting-2-164.greenmountainaccess.net] has left #scheme 00:19:29 -!- stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:22:39 nisstyre [~y@oftn/member/Nisstyre] has joined #scheme 00:22:56 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 00:23:49 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:26:29 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.96.105] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:26:49 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 00:27:51 -!- kuribas [~user@d54C54CAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 00:35:26 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 00:44:08 -!- aranhoide [~smuxi@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:53:08 arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has joined #scheme 01:05:42 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 01:14:47 jao` [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 01:14:50 -!- jao` [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 01:14:50 jao` [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 01:21:47 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24:53 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809232.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 01:38:13 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 01:47:34 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-154-130.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 02:25:14 zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.92.178] has joined #scheme 02:43:50 visualshock [~visualsho@host-37-191-204-89.lynet.no] has joined #scheme 02:53:42 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 02:54:05 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 03:03:37 sstrickl_ [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 03:05:57 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 03:09:52 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:27 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 03:17:24 -!- visualshock [~visualsho@host-37-191-204-89.lynet.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:22:20 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 03:30:55 visualshock [~visualsho@host-37-191-204-89.lynet.no] has joined #scheme 03:31:50 Why do I get illegal use of open square bracket? http://pastebin.com/CkJVDbfe 03:32:20 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 03:38:25 that works for me; what interpreter are you using? 03:40:45 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 03:47:17 elly, using dr racket R5RS 03:47:39 works now, had to change [] -> () 03:47:55 R5RS ftw 03:49:09 One thing I don't really understand is and or. 03:49:36 oh? 03:50:58 I am trying to convert the code to only using and/or, but I can't get it to work. I know cond might be better to use, but I am just learning. 03:51:35 gotcha 03:52:04 so 'or' returns the first one of its inputs that is not false, and 'and' returns the last one of its inputs if all its inputs are not false 03:52:28 -!- X-Scale [email@188.140.97.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:54:09 (or (negative? 0) -1) - why does this give me -1 when 0 is not negative? 03:54:25 it returns the first one of its inputs that is not false 03:54:30 (negative? 0) is false 03:54:33 so it returns -1 :) 03:55:53 ah I see 03:56:18 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 03:57:13 How can I combine multiple and? http://pastebin.com/fQMaiynS 03:57:54 er? define 'combine' 03:58:20 presumably use one of 'and' or 'or' on their return values? :) 03:58:35 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 03:59:25 Now I get #f with positive and zero, only negative numbers give me -1 04:00:20 that sounds like incorrect behavior 04:02:36 hmm 04:05:24 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 04:09:57 X-Scale [email@89.214.25.94] has joined #scheme 04:16:53 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:27:46 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:35:16 bhrgunatha [~chatzilla@125-231-81-201.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 04:37:32 tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has joined #scheme 04:38:43 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:40:58 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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This was exactly why I thought it was erronous: in no place is the macro environment populated with 09:07:34 bindings established through usage of `define' in the implemented language; only `mceval' handles `define', which binds in its own environment, which all happens after `preprocess'. 09:16:32 Ahhh, I stand corrected, that happens on encountering `lambda', just like in my own toy-code in fact, it's just `define' that's not handled and I guess that could be considered a minor oversight .. (my code supports no `define' at all yet :P) 09:23:16 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 09:25:49 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 09:26:23 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 09:27:06 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Client Quit] 09:30:57 wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 10:06:09 -!- Ogion_ [~Ogion@97.Red-81-39-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:14:12 Ogion_ [~Ogion@97.Red-81-39-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:18:33 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFFBA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:20:33 ASau [~user@p54AFFBA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:27:14 -!- b4283 [~b4283@218-164-126-111.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:27:46 b4283 [~b4283@218-164-126-111.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 10:39:09 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 10:44:25 cleatoma [~cleatoma@host31-52-140-136.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has joined #scheme 10:46:15 -!- cdidd [~cdidd@95-24-215-215.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:15:17 -!- karswell [~user@87.114.158.60] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:26:32 pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has joined #scheme 11:27:13 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:39:36 visualshock [~visualsho@1x-193-157-194-67.uio.no] has joined #scheme 11:40:06 A lot of code example used ', what does the ' mean? 11:40:47 visualshock: (let ((bar 'quux)) `(foo ',bar)) => (foo 'quux) 11:41:33 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 11:41:43 visualshock: I don't think one sees this often in Scheme, it should be more typical of CL/Elisp with their quasiquote-based `defmacro'. 11:41:59 (Well, not "based" on quasiquote...) 11:42:44 taylanub, okey thanks 11:42:57 -!- oxum [~oxum@122.164.157.207] has quit [Quit: ...] 11:44:04 visualshock: were you asking for ', or '? 11:44:18 well, "'," or "'" :-)) 11:44:30 punctuation hell ... 11:44:32 Oh haha 11:44:49 the comma might well have been part of the sentence, is why I'm asking 11:45:02 It rather looks like it was, indeed. 11:45:18 visualshock: 'foo is the same as (quote foo) if that was what you were asking. 11:47:19 taylanub, like example (define x 'a) 11:47:48 visualshock: do you know what (quote a) means? 11:48:00 nope 11:48:55 ok, so rougly speaking: the argument of quote will not be evaluated but returned as-is 11:49:12 so (quote a) will return the *symbol* a 11:49:17 not the value it is bound to (if any) 11:50:18 ah I understand 11:51:06 So we use it when we want to use a word, and not a variable? 11:51:36 for example! 11:51:54 but you can also quote lists, for example 11:51:57 (quote (+ 1 2 3)) 11:52:09 will give you a list of the symbol + and the numbers 1, 2, and 3 11:52:18 intresting 11:52:35 and as taylanub pointed out above 'a is just a shorthand notation for (quote a) 11:53:06 one way to think about quotation is that it flips the switch to data mode 11:53:19 while unquoted expressions are in code mode 11:53:28 It's common in that style of macros because you often want to include an "a" in the generated code, not to look up the variable "a" during macro expansion and include the value in the generated code. 11:54:35 okey, I think i got it now. thanks. But about the lingo in scheme 11:54:49 (define (add x y) (+ x y)) Do we call add a function or procedure? 11:56:28 visualshock: in Scheme it's usually called procedure 11:58:05 e.g: (+ 2 2) is this also called a procedure? 12:00:38 And what do you guys use Scheme for? Job? 12:01:03 visualshock: no, that would be a procedure application 12:01:14 visualshock: yeah, and for fun :-) 12:02:31 What is something Scheme is good at? 12:04:17 not getting in the way too much 12:05:19 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:06:40 It is hard for me to see what people can make with Scheme, since it at this point looks so basic. 12:06:49 visualshock: anything .. like any other general-purpose programming language, and arguably it's much cleaner and more expressive than most. 12:07:55 visualshock: take a look at some of the larger implementations, they usually have many "practical" extensions 12:08:11 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has joined #scheme 12:08:32 visualshock: The standards tend to be very minimal though, for now you have to stick to a specific implementation that has enough extensions to really make the language useful for all common tasks you'd encounter. (POSIX interface, regular expressions, FFI, etc.) 12:08:59 (POSIX interface might include, among more, TCP/IP, threading, filesystem operations, etc.) 12:10:59 Okey, I guess I will get a better understanding of it uses when I get more advanced. I am still learning the basics. 12:11:01 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 12:11:44 visualshock: yeah, you will. good luck! 12:11:50 visualshock: which implementation are you on? 12:12:12 R5RS 12:12:21 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 12:12:53 that's the standard 12:13:06 but I'm sure you use some implementation that supports R5RS to run code? 12:13:19 Dr Racket? 12:13:56 ah yes 12:14:35 then you should be well equipped for "real" programs :-) 12:14:49 seduce him *whisper* :D 12:14:53 Can't wait ;) 12:20:05 Does Scheme get used for real world application or just for education? 12:21:41 *wingo* uses it all the time at work -- analysis, visualization, publishing, research, etc 12:22:04 in short, it's a programming language, and anything you can program you can do with (some suitable implementation of) scheme 12:25:02 word 12:27:56 oxum [~oxum@122.164.171.114] has joined #scheme 12:35:19 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 12:45:47 -!- visualshock [~visualsho@1x-193-157-194-67.uio.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:50:00 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 12:57:48 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 13:04:42 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 13:06:15 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.20.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:01 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:17:53 Ogion__ [~Ogion@202.Red-83-38-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:18:29 -!- yacks [~py@122.179.86.89] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:19:59 -!- Ogion_ [~Ogion@97.Red-81-39-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:21:41 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:21:49 davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has joined #scheme 13:22:01 Rodya_ [~trav@c-69-242-48-55.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 13:33:09 nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 13:42:29 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 13:46:38 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 13:46:47 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:51:30 vishesh [~vishesh@103.30.140.69] has joined #scheme 13:57:45 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 13:59:49 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:02:34 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:02:41 SwashBuckla [daedra@unaffiliated/swashbuckla] has joined #scheme 14:05:25 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 14:05:27 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@c-69-242-48-55.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:07:07 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 14:11:03 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 14:12:43 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:13:33 `fogus [~fogus@fairoakssw.d-a-s.com] has joined #scheme 14:21:01 -!- DerGuteMoritz [~DerGuteMo@asimov.bevuta.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:22:37 -!- rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:22:56 -!- eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:22:57 -!- Razz_ [~tim@kompiler.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:23:29 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 14:24:00 rotty [rotty@yade.xx.vu] has joined #scheme 14:24:08 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.95.215] has joined #scheme 14:24:19 DerGuteMoritz [~DerGuteMo@asimov.bevuta.com] has joined #scheme 14:25:47 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-217.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:26:06 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 14:26:45 -!- monmortal [cebe4f83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.190.79.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:26:55 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 14:27:02 eMBee [~eMBee@foresight/developer/pike/programmer] has joined #scheme 14:30:46 Razz [~tim@kompiler.org] has joined #scheme 14:43:47 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 14:50:25 -!- quizdr [~user@cm179.sigma8.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 14:52:28 annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #scheme 14:52:28 -!- annodomini [~lambda@173-14-129-9-NewEngland.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Changing host] 14:52:28 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:52:59 -!- copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 14:53:05 -!- b4283 [~b4283@218-164-126-111.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:05:24 -!- cleatoma [~cleatoma@host31-52-140-136.range31-52.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:08:55 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-58.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 15:17:14 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 15:17:35 -!- vishesh is now known as trc 15:18:21 this is pretty cool. interactive sicp: http://xuanji.appspot.com/isicp/1-0-abstractions.html 15:19:21 mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has joined #scheme 15:20:58 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:22:20 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809211.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 15:28:00 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 15:32:55 tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has joined #scheme 15:37:20 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 15:43:49 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 15:46:42 cdidd [~cdidd@95-27-60-189.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #scheme 15:56:59 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-58-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:57:03 -!- githogori_ [~githogori@c-50-156-58-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:03:39 -!- X-Scale [email@89.214.25.94] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:07:56 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:11:05 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has quit [Quit: MichaelRaskin] 16:13:18 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 16:13:19 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 16:13:19 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 16:23:33 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 16:29:01 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 16:34:18 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:38:54 mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has joined #scheme 16:49:21 crundar [~Jason@149.160.138.149] has joined #scheme 16:50:28 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:50:38 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 16:51:21 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 16:51:49 jlongster [~user@pool-173-53-114-190.rcmdva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:32 -!- aap_ [~aap@85.183.44.54] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:14 aap_ [~aap@85.183.44.54] has joined #scheme 16:59:58 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 17:02:54 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:10:56 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 17:21:52 -!- sstrickl_ [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl_] 17:22:36 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 17:23:37 jao` [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 17:23:40 -!- jao` [~jao@21.Red-79-153-49.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Changing host] 17:23:40 jao` [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has joined #scheme 17:25:57 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 17:26:13 -!- bjz_ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:28:27 pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has joined #scheme 17:32:43 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:51:09 -!- pnpuff [~harmonic@unaffiliated/pnpuff] has left #scheme 17:55:17 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 17:57:35 -!- crundar [~Jason@149.160.138.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:59:31 crundar [Jason@149.160.138.149] has joined #scheme 18:04:10 -!- Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:07:14 Would it have any objectively adverse effect on language semantics if macro-expansion were eager and e.g. (cond (make-cond-clause)) worked ? 18:08:19 -!- crundar [Jason@149.160.138.149] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:08:37 crundar [Jason@149.160.138.149] has joined #scheme 18:09:02 Wouldn't it be hard to implement? When do you stop expanding? 18:09:29 (let ((make-cond-clause #t)) (cond (make-cond-clause 42))) 18:09:55 taylanub: it turns out the answer is "that would be a bad idea" 18:10:08 people have explored it some, in various ways 18:10:19 for example, there was some work on "micros" which worked that way 18:10:43 and language extension in the mold of Stratego/SDF works mostly that way (although really w/ free rewriting rules) 18:10:46 pjb: That example looks OK, it's lexically apparent that `make-cond-clause' gets bound to a value. As for your question, I suppose it would stop when an atom or a form (atom operand ...) where atom doesn't name a macro is reached. (Atom means not-pair.) 18:11:28 but the "right answer" for Lisp is, I think, what we do in Racket which I outline in this paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1106.2578 18:11:32 samth: Was there some profound reason, like inhibiting static analysis, or was it just deemed highly unintuitive ? 18:11:56 taylanub: pjb has given the reason, basically 18:12:18 samth: That just showcases the unintuitive behavior, from what I see ... 18:12:41 for example, (lambda (f x) (f x)) should be the application combinator, regardless of what f is bound to 18:13:56 I fully agree that it would be extremely unintuitive, but I can't decide whether it's just due to learned intuition. 18:14:57 taylanub: ok. what about (let ((make-cond-clause #t)) (my-macro-that-does-not-necessarily-do-lexical-things (make-cond-clause 42))) 18:15:19 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 18:15:30 That's basically the thing: macros may implement dynamic bindings or file or network access or any thing else than lexical binding. 18:16:04 (on-remote-host (cond (make-cond-clause))) ; is cond r5rs cond? 18:30:01 pjb: I believe you're thinking of CL again. ;P 18:30:18 Hygienic macros won't allow that. 18:31:13 taylanub: consider this macro: 18:31:38 (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () [(_ a b) b] [(_ a) a])) 18:31:56 and then: (m (or #t)) 18:32:25 sorry, the macro should be: 18:32:30 (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () [(_ (a b)) b] [(_ a) a])) 18:32:49 I see .. 18:32:56 then (m (or #t)) => #t via the first rule under Scheme's semantics 18:33:14 but (m (or #t)) => (m #t) via or 18:33:23 and you get the idea 18:33:48 fundamentally, you can't assume that the parenthesized things in the input to a macro are expressions 18:34:24 I think that *could* still be argued to be a valid choice ... 18:34:37 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 18:35:09 taylanub: certainly you can write a macro system that does that 18:35:15 However I think I found a more serious issue, and that's that a macro becomes impossible to re-bind: (let-syntax ((foo ...)) (let ((foo ...)) ...)) 18:35:24 it's just a very different one than Scheme's macro system 18:35:34 (Even with another `let-syntax', of course.) 18:36:03 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 18:36:12 thanks for the brainstorming :) 18:39:33 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-187-89.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:40:37 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:44:56 taylanub: can't you hygienically quote a macro argument? 18:45:42 pjb: I think `quote' can be said to be unhygienic. Unfortunately we lack a well-defined meaning of hygiene. 18:47:24 haha 18:52:52 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 18:53:17 Different question: if there a well-defined meaning of "special form" ? 18:55:06 taylanub: binding that isn't bound to a value 18:56:18 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56:38 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 18:56:40 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 18:57:20 In CL there is. In scheme (r5rs) they are documented as "syntax" IIRC. 18:58:54 Found one usage of the term in R5RS, which talks about a historic `catch' "special form". :) 18:59:47 Actually, I found a definition for it within related material to the discussion I'm having, I guess I should follow that. 19:00:31 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 19:08:28 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809211.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:08:49 I'd say special form is anything with special rules of evaluation 19:09:35 I'll personally just avoid using it in the future unless there's an explicit definition within context. :) 19:11:34 I've personally always considered SET!, QUOTE, LAMBDA and IF to be the main special forms 19:15:33 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 19:19:46 duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 19:19:51 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:23:14 ecraven: perhaps also top-level DEFINE 19:23:32 -!- crundar [Jason@149.160.138.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:23:35 -!- sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has quit [Quit: sstrickl] 19:30:06 crundar [~Jason@149.160.138.149] has joined #scheme 19:30:49 -!- mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:21 kilimanjaro: indeed. there may be more, but those are fairly basic in any Scheme I guess.. 19:34:08 i feel like letrec really ought to have a place among those. 19:35:31 stamourv: ping 19:35:40 mornfall [~mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #scheme 19:36:49 theseb: pong 19:37:58 stamourv: yesterday i asked a question about having a quote in the result of an eval.....i said something wrong then..but ski nailed it...basically you can do stuff like ((lambda (e) (list 'quote e)) '(3 4)) 19:38:13 stamourv: for some reason i find it cool you can quote the quote ;) 19:38:30 rudybot: ((lambda (e) (list 'quote e)) '(3 4)) 19:38:30 theseb: ; Value: ''(3 4) 19:39:07 The ' syntax just reads as `quote'. 19:40:15 -!- crundar [~Jason@149.160.138.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:42:50 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 19:43:24 stamourv: yup...i didn't think about double quoting but it makes sense it would work 19:43:56 stamourv: oh..say..i printed the macros doc you mentioned and started to read it 19:44:21 *ski* isn't sure his suggestion actually helped any 19:44:39 ski: yes it did! greatly! 19:44:46 ski: that's why i'm talking about it now! 19:45:03 *ski* is still unsure 19:45:05 stamourv: it seemed guile 2.0.5 didn't know define-syntax 19:45:07 ski: why? 19:45:20 because i don't know what you were attempting to do ? 19:45:50 rudybot: ''(1 2 3) 19:45:52 ecraven: your sandbox is ready 19:45:52 ecraven: ; Value: ''(1 2 3) 19:46:19 stamourv: n/m..now guile seems to like it 19:46:26 i must have been hallucinating last nite 19:46:42 does Racket always print quotes like that? On many systems the outermost quote is stripped when printing (guile 2 does this, MIT/GNU Scheme too) 19:47:02 ecraven: fwiw..i like racket but the "Hey let's mess up the output by adding an extra quote is brain damaged imho" 19:47:20 ecraven: they have a reason which i'm sure the theorists have a reason for 19:47:37 ecraven: Re printing: There are different modes, that you can control with parameters. 19:47:37 ecraven: "Racket tries to print simplest expression that EVALUATES to the result" 19:47:44 ecraven: that is it in a nutshell i think 19:47:47 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD63E72.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:47:51 theseb: Right, which IMO is a useful default. 19:48:00 not a bad idea, just not what I'm used to :) 19:48:10 stamourv: wait..you can turn that off in a new racket mode? shweet 19:48:26 developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has joined #scheme 19:50:58 rudybot: '(a b c) 19:50:59 stamourv: ; Value: '(a b c) 19:51:04 rudybot: (print-as-expression #f) 19:51:04 stamourv: Done. 19:51:05 rudybot: '(a b c) 19:51:06 stamourv: ; Value: '(a b c) 19:51:10 Hmm, not that one. 19:51:41 theseb: Section 1.4 of the Racket Reference probably has what you want. 19:52:13 sstrickl [~sstrickl@racket/sstrickl] has joined #scheme 19:54:01 stamourv: on another topic...fwiw......people can debate all day long what their favorite programming language is and why theirs is "the best".....but i think it is defensible that Scheme/Racket has the cleanest syntax of nearly all languages....so for TEACHING...i think HtDP and Racket and Scheme are pretty entrenched...i can see anything dethroning them 19:54:04 Just my $0.02 19:54:35 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 19:55:21 stamourv: yes python and ruby are nice...but Scheme is still those few episilons easier/cleaner still 19:55:56 acarrico1 [~acarrico@hunt-sting-2-164.greenmountainaccess.net] has joined #scheme 19:56:48 -!- acarrico1 is now known as acarrico 20:00:14 ecraven : i would like to know how to disable quasi-quotation alt. constructor printing for rudybot, getting `write' printing back 20:00:58 theseb: Hold on, will be back in a bit. 20:01:50 stamourv: You're changing the parameter inside rudybot's sandbox, which doesn't change how it eventually print the value. 20:02:25 ecraven: MIT Scheme, at least last time I looked at it, was doing a similar output. 20:02:50 anyone know how to use the `time` form in Guile? 20:02:59 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:05:14 add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 20:05:21 samth: you doing it from a script or at the repl? 20:05:26 ,time foo 20:05:31 is usually the way to do things 20:06:33 i don't think there is a time form in the default env 20:07:17 wingo: in a script 20:07:40 i'm somewhat shocked -- every scheme I know of has `(time e)` 20:07:47 hehe 20:07:53 o/~ in the ghetto... o/~ 20:08:29 i think the thing to do is use get-internal-real-time, diff, and divide by internal-time-units-per-second 20:08:30 wingo: it should be easy to add, right? 20:08:43 yes, but what does it do? 20:08:51 print out something and return all values? 20:10:01 -!- duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:13:33 yeah 20:13:41 rudybot: (time (values 1 2)) 20:13:42 samth: your sandbox is ready 20:13:42 samth: ; Value: 1 20:13:43 samth: ; Value#2: 2 20:13:44 samth: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n" 20:13:50 wingo: like that 20:14:01 cool, seems sensible 20:14:12 the printout varies between implementations 20:14:36 and what's the unit for the times? 20:15:35 that's ms for Racket 20:15:41 here's chez: 20:15:48 (time (bubble-sort vec)) 20:15:48 no collections 20:15:48 652 ms elapsed cpu time 20:15:48 654 ms elapsed real time 20:15:48 0 bytes allocated 20:15:51 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 20:16:06 gambit: 20:16:11 > (time (values 1 2)) 20:16:11 (time (values 1 2)) 20:16:11 0 ms real time 20:16:11 0 ms cpu time (0 user, 0 system) 20:16:11 no collections 20:16:11 32 bytes allocated 20:16:11 2 minor faults 20:16:12 no major faults 20:16:12 1 20:16:13 2 20:19:48 cool, will give it a go 20:19:58 in the meantime, dinner. ciao :) 20:21:50 have fun 20:23:53 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:24:50 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:25:03 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-184-92.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:25:03 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 20:25:09 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:25:39 theseb: Re teaching: Neither Scheme nor Racket are ideal for teaching as is. I think HTDP's approach of using teaching language subsets is much better. 20:26:08 stamourv: oh sure.....work your way up to full racket/scheme...yea...even better 20:26:11 Syntax may be part of it, but error messages are the big one, IMO. 20:26:40 stamourv: but even if someone created a HtDP with python or ruby subsets i'd *STILL* think Scheme would be better for an intro class 20:26:50 *ski* remembers the days of error numbers 20:28:22 theseb: If they managed to make good teaching subsets of python/ruby, they may have a shot. 20:29:11 Shriram Krishnamurthi's group is exploring somewhat similar ideas with pyret, the new teaching language they're working on. 20:29:43 githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-59-13.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:18 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:31:38 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 20:38:52 stamourv: yea but why would someone care? scheme would win that contest due to its minimal syntax 20:40:31 stamourv: hmmm pyret looks kinda liks python.....i'm surprised they thought racket's minimal syntax wasn't a global maxima regarding language choices 20:42:20 theseb: They're testing the hypothesis that minimal syntax helps. We don't know for sure. 20:43:05 On the one hand, uniformity makes for less to learn, which is nice. On the other, making distinct concepts (say, conditionals and function call) look distinct may also be useful when teaching. 20:43:26 Without empirical evidence (which is what they're trying to gather), we can't know for sure. 20:43:40 We can argue all day long if we want, but we won't *know*. 20:43:59 stamourv: there's some research on syntax choices for beginning programmers 20:44:06 spoiler alert: perl is bad 20:44:40 Yeah, Andreas Stefik's I've seen that. 20:44:51 s/'s /'s. / 20:44:58 Pretty cool stuff. 20:45:30 But doesn't really answer theseb's question on s-exps vs, say, python. 20:50:31 right 20:51:30 stamourv: wow....impressive....HtDP programs don't take anything without evidence 20:51:38 s/programs/people 20:51:56 Well, we're scientists. That's our job. 20:52:03 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 20:52:19 stamourv: i'm essentially doing something similar...i have taught intro classes w/ python...i was going to try HtDP next year and compare results 20:52:29 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 20:53:14 When you do, please report your findings! 20:54:03 FWIW, from anecdotal evidence, I don't think s-expression syntax is necessarily good for education purposes. It took me a surprisingly long time until I fully grokked the way sexprs are interpreted as code and that there's actually a VERY clear separation between data sexprs and code sexprs. The constant "code is data!" mentions seemed counter-productive for me, I first had to learn that code isn't just data, to be then able to learn 20:54:03 that code is *represented* by data... 20:56:14 taylanub: that's why in the HtDP curriculum, quote is not introduced until much later in the course. 20:56:36 And there is no code-data duality mentioned until the students are advanced enough to appreciate this. 20:56:45 Things like that might indeed solve the issue, yes, my learning of Lisp was just totally ad-hoc. 20:57:45 -!- `fogus [~fogus@fairoakssw.d-a-s.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:57:59 HtDP's first language doesn't even have `quote` actually. 20:58:07 nice 20:58:18 Hence why teaching languages are important; they shield you from features you really shouldn't look at to begin with. 20:58:49 stamourv: i would guess the HtDP guys like MF hang out with the comp sci crowd and chat with others teaching intro courses different ways 20:59:33 stamourv: in all their discussions i'm sure someone somewhere has tried teaching w/ and w/o HtDP...surely there is not need to wait for pyret or me to get some anecdotal evidence 20:59:54 i'd be curious to hear what the big boys think 21:01:09 theseb: Right, there's plenty of anecdotal evidence. But real studies is what the Pyret people are after. 21:02:40 stamourv: but why not just use python? 21:02:49 maybe i need to read the pyret page more 21:04:20 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 21:04:41 Pyret is a lot simpler than python. 21:07:29 -!- marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has quit [Quit: I really need to sleep.] 21:07:30 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 21:08:46 marsam [~marsam@146.185.180.111] has joined #scheme 21:10:39 stamourv: so they are basically creating the python subset we were talking about 21:11:57 Eh, not exactly. They're clearly inspired by python, but I don't think it's really subsetting. More like distilling, perhaps? 21:12:03 But I see your point. 21:22:28 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809228.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 21:24:01 -!- LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:08 -!- bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:36:32 bjz [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has joined #scheme 21:36:41 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:38:08 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 21:42:03 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:49:42 -!- developernotes [~developer@173-29-199-75.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 21:53:51 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-201-0.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:55:00 -!- eli [~eli@racket/eli] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:02:26 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:04:27 -!- githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-59-13.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:02 hiroaki [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 22:08:21 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:11:48 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-252-58.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 22:12:13 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-150-106.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 22:21:56 bars0 [~Name@d143-96.icpnet.pl] has joined #scheme 22:26:41 -!- bars0 [~Name@d143-96.icpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 22:30:05 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 22:34:13 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 22:36:23 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD92C77.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:36:49 taylanub [tub@p4FD90FA6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:38:32 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Quit: sleep] 22:46:55 ozzloy [~ozzloy@208.85.243.232] has joined #scheme 22:46:56 -!- ozzloy [~ozzloy@208.85.243.232] has quit [Changing host] 22:46:56 ozzloy [~ozzloy@unaffiliated/ozzloy] has joined #scheme 22:47:23 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 22:55:53 -!- xenophon [~user@64.124.65.162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:59:23 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 23:00:51 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 23:01:14 githogori [~githogori@c-50-156-58-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:01:41 theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has joined #scheme 23:04:45 LeoNerd [leo@2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:fe96:20e8] has joined #scheme 23:04:46 Tyler [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 23:05:09 -!- Tyler is now known as Guest29917 23:08:42 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Disconnected by services] 23:08:48 -!- Guest29917 is now known as sheilong 23:18:04 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:23:38 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:23:57 Wow, either I'm deluded and implemented crap that will fail in every single edge-case, or implementing a hygienic macro system is much easier than I thought. :P 23:25:46 I should implement `set!' tomorrow and add a couple procedures from the host language so I can write a bit of code to see how it behaves .. 23:28:58 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:29:12 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 23:29:41 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:34:10 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:36:04 -!- pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809228.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 24.3.1] 23:41:59 -!- trc [~vishesh@103.30.140.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:44:14 trc [~vishesh@103.30.140.115] has joined #scheme 23:47:42 http://sprunge.us/iBSU *All* lexical variables are converted to gensyms during preprocessing; special-form `syntax', handled during preprocessing, takes a symbol as an operand and injects its gensym, wrapped in kind of a flag, into the output code which `eval' receives; by the time eval encounters that object, it has established a binding for that gensym in its environment, so it in turn wraps the gensym together with the environment 23:47:42 and returns it. 23:48:12 This means a procedural macro can use `syntax' to output references to variables in its own lexical scope. 23:48:36 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:49:06 Well, `syntax-case' doesn't support that, I'm going straight for SRFI-72 style *proper* hygiene and not just any hygienic macro system. :D 23:50:36 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:50:50 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:51:45 duggiefr_ [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:52:37 `mceval' was missing the part that references injected variables: http://sprunge.us/IiNG 23:54:21 Using that, http://sprunge.us/XCDM works. 23:55:03 -!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:55:09 Good night to anyone who reads my monologues! 23:55:46 aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #scheme 23:56:07 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 23:56:26 ASau` [~user@p5083D398.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:57:01 Rodya_ [~trav@71.175.107.141] has joined #scheme 23:59:30 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFFBA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]