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I notice you in pkgsrc also. :-) 06:06:07 (the reason I'm asking, is I have a vim question). 06:06:21 vim + scheme that is 06:10:33 -!- zRecursive [~czsq888@183.12.92.133] has left #scheme 06:10:40 -!- Grognor [~Kraken@ip-64-134-239-114.public.wayport.net] has left #scheme 06:14:36 juxovec [~juxovec@31.4.243.109] has joined #scheme 06:17:19 Ogion_ [~Ogion@97.Red-81-39-21.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 06:26:04 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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joined #scheme 11:11:00 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 11:40:12 jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has joined #scheme 11:40:12 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@216-21-162-70.slc.googlefiber.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:40:12 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 11:42:34 add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-107.cust.tele2.se] has joined #scheme 11:45:06 b4283 [~b4283@36-238-130-127.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 12:17:10 effy_ [~x@111.197.239.70] has joined #scheme 12:17:25 -!- effy [~x@111.197.239.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:30:26 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:33:11 -!- omefire [~omefire@c-50-159-45-177.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:33:38 -!- yacks [~py@122.179.86.89] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:38:24 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has joined #scheme 12:48:48 omefire [~omefire@c-50-159-45-177.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 12:52:05 SRFI-72 seems *really* neat, solving all the scoping issues of syntax-case; I wonder why it hasn't gained widespread adoption ? 12:57:07 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 12:58:27 quizdr [~user@cm179.sigma8.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #scheme 13:03:49 -!- przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 13:05:58 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 13:09:43 -!- vishesh [~vishesh@122.177.20.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:17:32 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:23:40 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 13:26:34 davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has joined #scheme 13:28:12 -!- yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 13:29:01 yacks [~py@103.6.159.103] has joined #scheme 13:30:07 -!- SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:31:52 przl [~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has joined #scheme 13:33:32 SeySayux [SeySayux@libsylph/developer/seysayux] has joined #scheme 13:35:36 mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has joined #scheme 13:48:27 juxovec [~juxovec@155.Red-80-32-126.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 13:52:42 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 13:58:56 Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 13:59:16 -!- Fare [~fare@cpe-72-229-109-116.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:22 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 14:05:31 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD91A34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 14:13:45 zacts, I use GNU Emacs and Edwin. 14:16:04 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:21:15 Rodya_ [~trav@71.175.107.141] has joined #scheme 14:29:24 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 14:40:39 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-196-18.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 14:49:14 taylanub: perhaps because not everyone thinks it's better? 14:49:44 annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has joined #scheme 14:51:24 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 14:55:31 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.178.216.113] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:03:47 -!- b4283 [~b4283@36-238-130-127.dynamic-ip.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: ] 15:07:11 jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has joined #scheme 15:07:11 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@lallab.cs.byu.edu] has quit [Changing host] 15:07:11 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 15:10:45 ezio [~ezio@CPE0011d8ed356c-CM78cd8ecce905.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #scheme 15:10:45 -!- ezio [~ezio@CPE0011d8ed356c-CM78cd8ecce905.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Changing host] 15:10:45 ezio [~ezio@unaffiliated/ezio] has joined #scheme 15:12:03 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[~przlrkt@62.217.45.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 18:39:47 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 18:40:58 Muhammad_Ahli [~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets] has joined #scheme 18:41:06 THere is not syntax? or syntax-object? praedicate in R6 is tyhere? 18:42:55 rudybot: [let [[t '(a b c)]] (eq? (syntax->datum t) t)] 18:42:56 Muhammad_Ahli: your sandbox is ready 18:42:56 Muhammad_Ahli: error: syntax->datum: contract violation expected: syntax? given: '(a b c) 18:43:09 Hmm 18:43:26 In guile that identity seems to hold 18:52:17 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:01:56 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 19:03:13 dunsmoreb [~dunsmoreb@intenselogic.com] has joined #scheme 19:04:16 -!- fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:04:55 Riastradh [~riastradh@fsf/member/riastradh] has joined #scheme 19:07:35 fikusz [~fikusz@catv-89-132-137-62.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #scheme 19:15:26 rudybot: eval (let ((t #'(a b c))) (eq? (syntax->datum t) t)) 19:15:26 ski: ; Value: #f 19:16:20 ski, well, obviously that is #f because t is a syntax object (syntax->Datum t) isn't. 19:16:32 But syntax->datum in racket basically errors on not being given a syntax object 19:16:43 in guile it succeeds and gives you the original object back 19:17:06 rudybot: (syntax->datum '(1 2 3)) 19:17:07 Muhammad_Ahli: error: syntax->datum: contract violation expected: syntax? given: '(1 2 3) 19:17:29 Racket also simply provides a syntax? test but r6rs seems to not do this. 19:17:40 For reasons beyond my wildest understanding. 19:18:39 cyanboy [~Adium@unaffiliated/cyanboy] has joined #scheme 19:19:45 Muhammad_Ahli: because the Scheme standards are a result of compromises between various implementors and users. 19:21:30 asumu, I disagree, the scheme standard, r6 at least, despite its claims is not a "report", it invents many things of itself. 19:21:45 It doesn't try to look at the common ground between all implementations 19:22:20 That's irrelevant to whether it was a compromise between some parties or not. 19:22:24 That aside, many implementations did provide syntax? before r6 and I don't see why it is not included, especially because writing a portable implementation yourself is tricky. 19:23:23 taylanub [tub@p4FD91A34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 19:25:04 Huh, syntax-case can in guile simply be used to destructure lists filled with symbols, it reports no error on the input not being a syntax object and even though you do #'a where #'a is a pattern variable the output will not be a syntax object. 19:25:12 -!- defanor [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:25:35 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27:04 bogdan [~bogdan@89.110.236.83] has joined #scheme 19:27:42 -!- cyanboy [~Adium@unaffiliated/cyanboy] has left #scheme 19:27:49 bogdan, what are you doing here? 19:27:58 The King of the Moldavians. 19:27:58 ? 19:28:02 Muhammad_Ahli: For guile, you might want to visit #guile, or the guile-user mailing list. 19:28:30 Fair enough, I'll ask there 19:29:15 Muhammad_Ahli: Possibly, symbols also count as syntax objects, specifically constants. 19:29:30 But I'm not sure. 19:31:29 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:33:41 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 19:35:48 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 19:42:27 -!- bogdan is now known as bogi- 19:43:09 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:47:25 -!- bogi- [~bogdan@89.110.236.83] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:52:35 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 19:54:19 kobain_ [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 19:55:07 effy [~x@111.197.239.70] has joined #scheme 19:55:49 -!- effy_ [~x@111.197.239.70] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:56:18 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 19:56:49 phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has joined #scheme 19:57:32 -!- kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:58:22 MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has joined #scheme 19:59:02 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 20:01:14 -!- dunsmoreb [~dunsmoreb@intenselogic.com] has left #scheme 20:01:54 -!- phipes [~phipes@unaffiliated/phipes] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:04:27 -!- jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 20:09:11 jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-217.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:14:49 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-87-79-196-18.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:17:55 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-210-217.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:18:30 i'm writing some macros and find them addicting 20:18:39 good 20:18:43 let the macros flow through you 20:19:04 :) 20:21:14 But as a rule of thumb, make something a procedure if you can, a macro if only it's impossible to do the same thing with a procedure. 20:21:44 For instance, use procedures that take procedure-arguments to call instead of using macros that take a "body" form. 20:27:51 -!- nugnuts [~nugnuts@pool-74-105-21-221.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:29:53 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-162-22.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:30:18 taylanub: are you saying to avoid macros with begin expressions? 20:30:29 defanor_ [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 20:30:37 taylanub: let over lambda disagrees with that notion :) 20:30:38 taylanub: sorry..i'm still not a lisp guru 20:31:01 theseb: there are some drawbacks to macros, for example, you can't use them with procedures like MAP or FILTER 20:31:18 you could write macro-map and macro-filter >.> 20:31:42 or APPLY :) quite a few times I tried (apply and ...) 20:33:23 theseb: No, it's just that, often you'll write a macro that behaves like for example `let', in that it has some initial form that specifies something (variables to bind in the case of let), and the rest of the forms are normal code to execute; in such a situation you might often find that this doesn't need to be a macro, and instead can be a procedure that takes some first argument that specifies said whatever, and a zero-argument 20:33:23 procedure as its second argument, which it executes. 20:33:36 Not sure if I'm being clear, an example would be so much better .. let me seek out one .. 20:34:09 I've written FOR-EACH-LINE which breaks a string up into lines and executes a function on each line 20:34:39 I agree with taylanub that whenever possible functions are probably preferable to macros :) 20:35:56 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20:35:58 Ah yes, perfect minimal example from my Elisp library: theseb: I had a `time' macro that would time the execution of its body, so you would do for example (time (sleep 2)) and it would return 2 because executing (sleep 2) took 2 seconds, then I realized this can as well be a procedure that I call like (time (lambda () (sleep 2))). 20:36:27 ecraven: why can't you use map in a macro? 20:36:42 theseb: you can't use a macro with MAP 20:36:45 taylanub: (time (thunk (sleep 2))) in racket, even :P 20:36:46 theseb: You can use map in a macro, you can't use map ON a macro, like (map my-macro my-list) 20:36:53 ecraven: oh...the other way around...k 20:36:55 thanks 20:37:02 elly: interesting macro, THUNK. never thought about that :) 20:37:17 *taylanub* prefers (^() ...) after defining ^ to be lambda 20:37:22 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 20:37:29 saved characters: 2 20:37:34 -!- defanor_ [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has quit [Quit: giving up on this server] 20:38:19 defanor_ [~defanor@muffin.uberspace.net] has joined #scheme 20:38:30 rudybot: (time (thunk (sleep 2))) 20:38:33 stamourv: your typed/racket sandbox is ready 20:38:34 stamourv: ; Value: # 20:38:35 stamourv: ; stdout: "cpu time: 0 real time: 0 gc time: 0\n- : (-> Void)\n" 20:38:43 elly: You may be thinking of time-apply. 20:38:46 rudybot: (time-apply (thunk (sleep 2))) 20:38:46 stamourv: error: #:1:0: Type Checker: Polymorphic function time-apply could not be applied to arguments: Domains: (a ... a -> b) (List a ... a) (-> b) Null Arguments: (-> Void) in: (#%app time-apply (lambda () (#%app sleep (quote 2)))) 20:38:50 rudybot: init racket 20:38:51 stamourv: your sandbox is ready 20:38:52 rudybot: (time-apply (thunk (sleep 2))) 20:38:53 stamourv: error: time-apply: arity mismatch; the expected number of arguments does not match the given number expected: 2 given: 1 arguments...: # 20:39:11 rudybot: (time-apply (thunk (sleep 2)) '()) 20:39:13 stamourv: ; Value: '(#) 20:39:14 stamourv: ; Value#2: 4 20:39:15 taylanub: actually if i'm not mistaken aren't ALL macros syntactic sugar? really you can avoid macros always with enough pain 20:39:15 stamourv: ; Value#3: 2001 20:39:16 stamourv: ; Value#4: 0 20:39:56 theseb: you can always "write out" the expansion of macros by hand 20:39:56 theseb: There are cases where a procedure just won't be the same. 20:40:15 theseb: sure, if you are willing to manually eta-expand everything 20:40:21 and then re-reduce it later 20:40:25 it looks awful though :) 20:40:27 theseb: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/scp91-felleisen.ps.gz 20:42:01 stamourv: wow...45 pages.....MF is definitely a PLT dude 20:42:17 i just do scheme for fun....he's going to world domination of PLT 20:42:23 s/to/for 20:42:54 Well, he started it... 20:43:39 theseb: PLT is a research group (which he founded). You may be thinking of PL, which is the field. 20:46:01 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 20:47:25 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 20:49:06 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:49:37 Doesn't PLT also mean "programming language theory" in the general sense ? 20:49:49 yes 20:49:51 people don't use that acronym usually 20:50:03 the T is pretty much redundant since "PL" as a field always implies theory :P 20:50:43 Maybe http://this-plt-life.tumblr.com/ is the only place that uses the acronym. 20:50:43 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 20:50:49 taylanub, theseb: I've only ever seen it used by hobbyists. No one actually working in PL calls it PLT. 20:50:56 taylanub: what about PLT hulk? 20:51:48 stamourv: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language_theory has PLT 20:53:16 Yes, "programming language theory" is a thing. I'm only objecting to the acronym. 20:57:05 -!- mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:58:15 jeapostrophe [~jay@racket/jeapostrophe] has joined #scheme 20:59:09 mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has joined #scheme 20:59:49 stamourv: no i mean the wikipedia page uses that acronym 21:00:10 That Wikipedia page likely isn't written by people working in the field. 21:00:27 (add1 asumu) 21:00:28 probably it isn't that important 21:00:38 -!- mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has quit [Client Quit] 21:00:42 http://www.sigplan.org/ <-- Note "PL" not "PLT" in the name. 21:01:14 Right. SIGPLAN is pretty much the top authority on that. 21:01:31 It's a nitpicky detail, but in some contexts the distinction may be helpful. 21:01:41 Not to mention that the field of PL encompasses more than just theory. 21:01:53 Especially to avoid confusion with PLT the research group. :) 21:04:36 'Course, SIGPLTAN would be totally unpronounceable anyway... 21:08:00 mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has joined #scheme 21:11:53 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 21:13:16 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 21:15:21 langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has joined #scheme 21:17:15 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 21:18:29 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:20:20 tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has joined #scheme 21:21:39 shivani [uid11848@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bvqopjjvtnfiqbzm] has joined #scheme 21:22:57 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-211-107.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 21:23:53 -!- arbscht [~arbscht@fsf/member/arbscht] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:26:55 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 21:28:14 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz] 21:28:35 klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has joined #scheme 21:31:31 pnkfelix [~pnkfelix@pv7062-0476809232.pck.nerim.net] has joined #scheme 21:32:56 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 21:33:07 -!- klltkr_ [~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:37:42 -!- acarrico [~acarrico@hunt-sting-2-164.greenmountainaccess.net] has left #scheme 21:39:04 -!- mgodshall [~mgodshall@8.20.30.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:42:28 -!- mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:44:27 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 21:45:40 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 21:46:06 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 22:00:50 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 22:02:51 mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has joined #scheme 22:05:12 -!- mmachenry [~Adium@208.78.140.246] has left #scheme 22:06:39 -!- tupi [~user@189.60.14.237] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:08:56 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:09:59 rudybot: ( (lambda (e) (quote e)) '(3 4)) 22:10:00 theseb: your sandbox is ready 22:10:00 theseb: ; Value: 'e 22:10:15 how change body so the output is '(3 4) ? 22:10:40 Remove the quote? 22:10:53 oh yea duh.. 22:10:55 rudybot: eval ((lambda (e) (list 'quote e)) '(3 4)) 22:10:56 ski: your sandbox is ready 22:10:56 ski: ; Value: ''(3 4) 22:11:06 wait...maybe that was the wrong question.... 22:11:12 *theseb* goes back to debugging his macro 22:11:19 rudybot: (let ([quote values]) ((lambda (e) 'e) '(3 4))) 22:11:19 stamourv: error: application: not a procedure; expected a procedure that can be applied to arguments given: 3 arguments...: 4 22:11:39 rudybot: ((let ([quote values]) (lambda (e) 'e)) '(3 4))) 22:11:39 stamourv: would it be possible to create a "execute-ruby" script that would replace the window of the current buffer with a shell and pass the contents of the buffer to the shell with `ruby -e "contents of buffer"`? 22:11:48 gabot: slap rudybot 22:11:48 *gabot* slaps rudybot 22:11:53 rudybot: eval ((let ([quote values]) (lambda (e) 'e)) '(3 4))) 22:11:53 stamourv: error: #:1:47: read: unexpected `)' 22:11:54 does anyone know what i mean by this.....It appears that a macro invocation essentially involves evaluating some stuff TWICE 22:11:58 rudybot: eval ((let ([quote values]) (lambda (e) 'e)) '(3 4)) 22:11:58 stamourv: ; Value: '(3 4) 22:12:03 There we go. 22:12:06 rudybot: botsnack 22:12:07 this is going straight to my thighs 22:12:13 theseb: well, if you expand to the same chunk of code twice, it'll get run twice 22:12:51 elly: i'm trying to picture macro invocation in my head.....1st you do the lamba func application...then you eval the result of that 22:13:10 theseb: Try DrRacket's macro stepper. 22:13:10 elly: so the BODY of the lamba func will basically be eval'd TWICE! :)...am i crazy or correct? 22:13:35 == stamourv 22:13:54 #f ? 22:14:00 AFAIK, we're different people. 22:14:07 :) 22:14:14 the '== x' syntax means 'I agree with whatever x just said' 22:14:25 Ah. I tend to use `add1' for that. 22:14:41 rudybot: (add1 elly) 22:14:41 stamourv: ; Value: 246 22:15:07 stamourv: ok... 22:15:35 yikes 22:15:37 rudybot: elly 22:15:38 elly: (note to passers by: elly has been assimilated) 22:15:42 huh. 22:15:54 stamourv: can i ask if i'm correct about the double eval's of the guts of the lambda func of a macro? 22:16:23 To find out, try adding printing to the body of the macro. 22:16:29 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:16:40 stamourv: i have...and that's what i saw 22:17:11 stamourv: here is what i'm up against....suppose a macro contains (car e) where e is a param passed into the lambda func 22:17:26 stamourv: suppose (2 4) is passed in 22:17:39 stamourv: 1st eval will convert ('car e) to (car (2 4)) 22:17:47 that's "macro expansion" 22:17:51 stamourv: SECOND eval will bomb since (2 4) isn't quoted!!! 22:17:58 if you refer to it as "eval" you will confuse yourself :) 22:18:14 but yeah, (2 4) isn't a valid form unless the macro takes care to quote it 22:18:49 "so don't do that" 22:19:11 theseb: You seem to be confused about macro expansion. 22:19:25 I recommend: http://www.greghendershott.com/fear-of-macros/ 22:19:48 elly: (my_macro args) ---->macro expansion--->(some_lambda_func args)---->apply some lambda func to args ---->eval the result of that apply 22:19:53 what 22:19:59 what is this 'some_lambda_func' thing 22:20:06 elly: whatever the macro is equal to 22:20:13 elly: i'm using define-macro 22:20:21 elly: so macros are just symbols for lambda funcs 22:20:22 oh dear 22:20:28 theseb: This is not how macros work. 22:20:43 And define-macro "macros" don't. 22:20:53 stamourv: wait...is it how define-macro macros work? 22:21:03 don't use define-macro, please 22:21:08 They don't work. 22:21:14 stamourv: i've read several docs...i'm pretty sure that is correct 22:21:15 the guile manual (I assume you are using guile?) warns you not to 22:21:21 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 22:21:27 stamourv: i know all about name collisions and stuff 22:21:30 They do stuff, but they're a pretty good way to write brittle code. 22:21:54 stamourv: eventually i'll add gensym which should fix most of the concerns 22:22:06 please, please stop 22:22:08 this is just an exercise 22:22:08 and use syntax-rules() 22:22:13 s/()// 22:22:37 elly: but this isn't for real work...just my own purposes...and define-syntax seems so much more compilcated 22:22:42 no 22:22:44 *stamourv* sighs. 22:22:48 define-syntax is vastly simpler 22:22:51 elly: it is? 22:22:55 No, `gensym' will only fix a few problems. 22:23:11 elly: hmm ok maybe i should give define-syntax another chance 22:23:12 And anything you learn with `define-macro', you will have to unlearn. 22:23:26 define-syntax is a modern rifle with a scope and such; define-macro is a black powder hand-cannon that *looks* simpler but has a 90% chance of taking your hand off when you fire it 22:23:27 Read fear of macros. It's an excellent introduction. 22:23:41 go read the thing stamourv linked, and ask us if you have problems with define-syntax 22:23:54 it's comprehensible, we swear :) 22:24:37 but to answer your earlier question, *if you use define-macro*, there is no evading the referential-transparency problem - see the bottom of http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Defmacros.html#Defmacros 22:24:37 http://tinyurl.com/m2awu57 22:24:59 stamourv: ok i shall 22:25:02 stamourv: thanks 22:25:03 cool 22:25:20 theseb: :D 22:25:29 -!- amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:21 stamourv: is Fear of Macros all in PDF form somewhere? i want to print it 22:26:32 kuribas [~user@d54C54CAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #scheme 22:26:53 theseb: I believe its source is on greghendershott's github. 22:26:59 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD631CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:27:00 It's a scribble document, and scribble renders to pdf. 22:27:11 hehe.....i found a 1 page html..good enough 22:28:04 -!- bjz__ [~bjz@125.253.99.68] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:28:48 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:32:26 aranhoide [~aranhoide@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:36:14 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD91A34.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 22:36:40 taylanub [tub@p4FD92C77.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:46:47 Is it a common hygienic macro strategy to have the preprocessor simply replace symbols in procedure argument lists with unique objects (gensym or not, needn't be symbols), remember a mapping from the original symbols to these objects, transform occurrences of the symbols in the procedure body accordingly to these objects too, then let `eval' (an eval that consumes preprocessed code) use those objects instead of symbols for variables ? 22:46:47 (Top-levels are an exception.) 22:48:49 I partly got the idea from J. Shutt's dissertation where it shows an example implementation of a hygienic macro system, though it does something slightly different and somehow transforms those objects back to the original symbols or so. (BTW that implementation is possibly faulty, I mailed Shutt about it but have no answer yet.) 22:50:10 In case anyone cares here's my toy-code that implements the idea: http://sprunge.us/iWDK?scheme (Remove the "?scheme" part of the URI to disable line-numbers, for copying.) 22:51:15 (Oh, for debugging purposes I'm missing the (mceval <..> env) call in `repl' there, letting it give me the preprocessor output.) 22:57:20 -!- aranhoide [~aranhoide@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:58:03 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 22:58:08 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:59:30 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:00:55 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01:16 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has joined #scheme 23:05:09 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:05:58 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@64.119.141.126] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 23:06:13 -!- langmartin [~langmarti@host-68-169-175-226.WISOLT2.epbfi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:12:34 BTW my motivation was to see how easily I can implement a clean/smart `syntax' as present in SRFI-72 as opposed to that of conventional `syntax-case' systems which doesn't close over its lexical environment. Given this strategy it seems straightforward, though I have yet to implement it in my code: the preprocessor, on encountering (syntax ), will output an object that contains, for every symbol in , wrapped pairs of the 23:12:34 macro/static-environment `menv' at that point, and the transformed (to previously mentioned unique object) symbol, where different objects of this kind (e.g. acquired through arguments to the macro) can be inserted with `unsyntax' or so, such that ultimately `eval' receives pairs of variables and the correct environment to look them up or bind in. 23:13:15 taylanub: have you read the papers on syntactic closures? 23:13:20 those might be interesting too 23:13:41 Maybe I didn't think it through and am specifying something wrong or impossible to implement, will have to see tomorrow because I'm too tired now. If it really is as simple as I think, then it makes me wonder why the conventional broken `syntax-case' has become the standard. 23:14:05 ecraven: Indeed, it's similar (same?) to syntactic closures too, but the creation of these closures can happen entirely automatically on usage of `syntax'. 23:14:17 b4283 [~b4283@218-164-126-111.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #scheme 23:14:41 -!- juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:15:48 I only glanced at MIT/GNU Scheme's support of syntactic closures though, didn't read the paper on it yet. Neither did I look into the SRFI-72 implementation. 23:17:44 Anyway, I'll continue tomorrow, else I'll start suffering from sleep deprivation. :P (My IRC connection remains open, anyone feel free to highlight my nick.) 23:18:25 monmortal [cebe4f83@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.190.79.131] has joined #scheme 23:23:09 -!- cbsw [~cbsw@116.208.180.134] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:25:18 davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has joined #scheme 23:26:40 www.prevayler.org has anyone ported this to scheme? 23:31:04 -!- annodomini [~lambda@wikipedia/lambda] has quit [Quit: annodomini] 23:33:14 -!- Muhammad_Ahli [~nevzets@unaffiliated/nevzets] has left #scheme 23:35:32 taylanub: when I learned PL theory this approach (replacing symbols with gensyms, then unreplacing them) was known as "alpha-varying" 23:35:51 I don't know whether it's common in practice or not 23:40:39 whats pl theory? 23:42:23 aranhoide [~smuxi@66.Red-79-157-100.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 23:44:05 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:47:14 -!- Rodya_ [~trav@71.175.107.141] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:49:58 -!- tenq is now known as tenq|away 23:54:03 -!- pierpa [~user@95.236.58.43] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:55:32 -!- tenq|away is now known as tenq 23:56:16 ASau` [~user@p54AFFBA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:58:43 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@128.120.118.101] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]