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Mailing him now ... 00:15:22 juxovec [~juxovec@31.4.243.108] has joined #scheme 00:16:26 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Quit: peace] 00:19:49 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@31.4.243.108] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 00:27:11 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:31:32 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 00:31:36 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:33:05 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 00:36:03 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-44c2df0c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:36:18 aranhoide [~aranhoide@234.Red-83-47-64.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 00:45:38 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD930BA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Disconnected by services] 00:46:11 taylanub [tub@p4FD93085.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 00:46:21 -!- mmc 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17:20:54 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 17:21:33 theseb: well, you'd need to make C preprocessor Turing complete 17:22:11 MichaelRaskin: yes....homoiconicity is nice but it isn't *vital* to having macros..that's my point 17:22:47 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:22:53 theseb: http://calculist.org/blog/2012/04/17/homoiconicity-isnt-the-point/ 17:23:13 In a weak sense it is almost necessary for macro usability. But this weak sense is just «language should represent code using often-used kinds of datatypes» 17:23:38 Julia is a good example of a macro system that uses a ton of data types for ASTs 17:24:23 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 17:24:44 Although not realy that many 17:28:29 stamourv: nice! thanks! 17:30:29 -!- vraid [d91bbc5a@gateway/web/freenode/ip.217.27.188.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 17:31:48 taylanub [tub@p4FD930AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 17:31:51 -!- Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in] 17:33:23 Kruppe [~jcp@laforge.cs.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #scheme 17:39:53 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 17:43:21 -!- SwashBuckla [daedra@urika.azquelt.co.uk] has left #scheme 17:51:23 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:52:10 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-189-57.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 17:56:00 hiroakip 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20:48:53 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:51:51 jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 20:54:35 -!- truncate [~vishesh@103.30.140.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:55:56 how implement short circuiting in scheme? i 'm implement a logical and/or in scheme but not with short circuiting..just curious 20:56:08 s/'m/can 20:59:18 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-237-68-160.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20:59:24 macros 20:59:27 macros! 20:59:33 and thunks :) 20:59:46 oh wait...if expressions already "short circuit"..so maybe i'm ok 20:59:53 Indeedy 20:59:53 well, yeah 20:59:59 but if you wanted to do it yourself, it is kind of a neat exercise 21:00:18 The hint is that (and A B) becomes (let ((tmp A)) (if tmp tmp B)) 21:00:36 :) 21:00:38 thanks 21:01:05 LeoNerd: what about allowing arbitrary numbers of args? 21:01:14 LeoNerd: e.g. (and A B C D E ...) ? 21:01:31 Well surely that's solveable by recursion :) 21:01:35 theseb: express it as (and A (and B (and C (and D (and E ...))))) and it will become clear :) 21:01:37 I'm not gonna give the entire game away :) 21:02:13 hehe 21:02:15 elly: oh hey...i suppose i can built that nested chain in my macro before eval touches it 21:02:28 in fact, the natural way to write your macro is recursive :) 21:02:51 elly: your solution assumes a 2 param macro already exists...(and A B) 21:02:53 -!- Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:02:54 that's ok 21:03:18 theseb: or rather, it assumes that and has two cases: a 2-arg one and an n-arg one 21:03:19 Eis2 [~other@188.162.65.25] has joined #scheme 21:03:24 and the n-arg one is done in terms of the 2-arg one :P 21:03:26 ok 21:03:49 fun stuff 21:03:54 macros are pretty great 21:03:58 hello 21:04:11 You need 4 cases. (and) (and A) are special. (and A B) is the if conditioned one above, and (and A B C ...) is a recursion on that 21:04:18 why does it enters infinite loop on macroepxansion? http://vpaste.net/LGh49 21:04:29 Another hint: (and) is #t; (and A) is just A 21:05:00 Eis2: hmm 21:05:03 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.32.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:05:04 Eis2: when does - get evaluated? 21:05:05 LeoNerd: ewww.....huh? 21:05:13 LeoNerd: and will accept 1 param? 21:05:18 didn't know that 21:05:25 freaky 21:05:32 formally, and takes a list of params, and returns true if there are no false elements in the list 21:05:40 which is why (and) and (and 1) are both allowed 21:05:49 elly: after macroexpand, right? 21:05:53 Eis2: indeed! 21:05:59 ugh 21:06:13 then how do i write such macros in scheme? 21:06:21 rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.32.210] has joined #scheme 21:06:22 prayer 21:06:26 I wouldn't write a macro for fact :P 21:06:41 elly: yeah, i'm just trying to learn scheme macros 21:06:48 aha 21:06:53 there are many better examples to learn with than that 21:07:00 in defmacro-wasy it's quite straitforward 21:07:01 here's a couple you might try: 21:07:26 (let-if x y z q) -> if y is true, bind its value to x and evaluate z; otherwise evaluate q 21:08:04 (++! x) -> increment the value of x by 1, mutating it 21:08:15 so (define x 1) (++! x) (++! x) -> (= x 3) 21:08:53 he-he, thanks for nice exercises :) 21:09:02 I prefer to call that incr! 21:09:40 sure 21:09:50 -!- wingo [~wingo@cha74-2-88-160-190-192.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:10:19 you could also implement a weak version of `cut' if you want 21:10:23 elly: but just to make sure, is it possible to write comple time factorial in scheme? 21:10:50 used like this: (define x (cut (+ 3 _))); (x 5) -> 8 21:10:57 Eis2: I actually am not sure in general 21:12:30 actually, I bet you can 21:15:43 elly: is there any examples? 21:15:51 are* 21:15:55 -!- theseb [~cs@74.194.237.26] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:16:10 it might be difficult to do in syntax-rules 21:16:21 but it should be easy in syntax-case 21:19:09 turbofail: thats something, example would be perfect but hints are fine too. :) 21:23:06 I think it is indeed pretty awful in syntax-rules 21:27:08 yeah i think you'd have to do some unary encoding/decoding business 21:27:40 and... some unary arithmetic routines 21:27:57 yeah 21:28:04 you can do it with church numerals using syntax-rules :) 21:28:11 but it would be deeply unpleasant 21:33:58 juxovec [~juxovec@227.Red-79-153-87.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 21:34:50 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 21:36:14 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 21:37:17 -!- bars0 [~Name@d143-96.icpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: leaving] 21:49:19 -!- davexunit [~user@38.104.7.18] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:49:51 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:58:19 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:59:11 -!- dzhus [~dzhus@95-31-27-234.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:30:41 -!- taylanub [tub@p4FD930AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:34:33 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:35:32 sorry, i'm maybe a bit dumb 22:35:41 http://vpaste.net/tZmY3 still doesn't work 22:44:31 correct, because syntax-quote does not mean eval 22:45:25 https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Syntax-Case.html i'm reading this, and seeing that thay can use #` to mimic defmacro-like behaviour 22:46:03 elly: but how can i eval within synyax? 22:46:43 it'll be great not to use #` thing just for learning purposes because i'm already familiar with defmacro 22:47:03 macros expand *syntax*, not *values*, so the (- n 1) thing is not evaluated 22:47:06 karswell [~user@226.13.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined #scheme 22:47:19 I still think this example is a really bad way to learn syntax-case, for the record 22:48:16 -!- jao [~jao@pdpc/supporter/professional/jao] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 22:49:14 generally solutions to actually doing evaluation at macro time involve implementing the evaluator in the macro language, which is often extremely gruesome: http://okmij.org/ftp/Scheme/macros.html 22:49:59 elly: ah, so there is no built in thing for that purpose and #` is guile specific? 22:50:12 #` is syntax-quasiquote, right? 22:51:47 elly: quasisyntax according to guile page i linkeed above 22:52:04 quasisyntax is for quasiquoting syntax expressions, not for evaluating things 22:52:54 urgh, I hate to link a paper, but I cannot adequately explain phase splitting 22:53:10 -!- Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:53:41 basically, in scheme, there is a separation between operations that happen at runtime and operations that happen at compiletime, conceptually 22:53:46 (called "phase splitting") 22:54:07 macros happen at compiletime, but the evaluation operation you need (the (- n 1)) can only happen in the runtime phase 22:54:15 does that make sense? 22:54:45 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 22:54:46 yep, like in CL but in CL there are more "times" than just macroexpand time and run time. 22:55:01 yeah, same in scheme 22:55:04 but the other ones are complex 22:55:18 hrm 22:55:27 it may be best to take a look at http://www.cs.utah.edu/plt/publications/macromod.pdf to understand phase splitting a bit better 22:56:21 Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 22:57:38 you are using guile, you said? 22:57:56 correct 22:58:48 truncate [~vishesh@103.30.140.157] has joined #scheme 22:59:20 urgh, one sec 22:59:51 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:00:29 Kabaka [kabaka@botters/kabaka] has joined #scheme 23:01:20 unfortunately, I don't know how to do this other than with racket 23:01:26 and your expression even defeats racket's macro stepper (!) 23:01:34 but if you do the following related thing: 23:02:13 http://bpaste.net/show/XINi1XlKpbBNwnFwNJm2/ 23:02:29 you can see from the (expand/step) that it actually expands to (* 2 (- 2 1)), not (* 2 1) 23:02:37 because the - is not executed in the compile phase 23:02:41 and you can't really make it be executed there 23:02:50 -!- Nizumzen [~Nizumzen@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 23:04:04 elly: yeah, but that does not include recursion 23:04:15 well, I'll add a macro call, one sec 23:04:52 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 23:05:05 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:05:56 elly: so to sum up this: if one wants some evaluating including pattern variables inside on compile time - one must use defmacro? 23:06:06 evaluation* 23:06:16 inside macro* 23:06:25 ugh, drowsy 23:06:57 -!- juxovec [~juxovec@227.Red-79-153-87.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:55 Eis2: http://bpaste.net/show/agTssN13iulogzKajyOS/ 23:08:02 involves a macro call so you can see what's happening 23:08:09 note the (- 2 1) never gets evaluated 23:08:36 I don't know much about defmacro, sorry 23:09:09 elly: thanks for examples. 23:09:15 no problem 23:09:21 racket's macro stepper is glorious for understanding macros :) 23:09:26 but they are exceedingly hard to use 23:09:34 did you do any of the examples I recommended earlier? 23:11:05 elly: i started to expore syntax-case and found answers to them in guile docs :) 23:11:53 thank you again, going sleep, barely can think 23:12:17 -!- Eis2 [~other@188.162.65.25] has quit [Quit: leaving] 23:12:32 cool :) 23:12:46 http://chandra.leptoquark.net/~elly/racket-dbg.png racket debugger in action 23:14:05 -!- rszeno [~rszeno@79.114.32.210] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:14:52 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:14:58 kobain [~sambio@unaffiliated/kobain] has joined #scheme 23:16:53 elly: FYI, there's a Racket salon next Monday. 23:17:08 ah, while I will be in Toronto :( 23:17:28 Well, hopefully there will be one next month too. 23:18:30 *stamourv* disappears. 23:19:07 yeah :) 23:24:09 yrdz [~p_adams@unaffiliated/p-adams/x-7117614] has joined #scheme 23:33:47 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:34:45 sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has joined #scheme 23:39:38 -!- truncate [~vishesh@103.30.140.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:39:41 copumpkin [~copumpkin@unaffiliated/copumpkin] has joined #scheme 23:42:41 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:42:56 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-12-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:45:57 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 23:55:41 ASau` [~user@p54AFFE57.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 23:59:37 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFF1B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:59:44 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau