00:02:44 That's how we roll. 00:02:46 'Round here. 00:16:26 Each time one recalls roulette I recall the case when some played it with Tokarev pistol. 00:16:36 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 00:28:05 iemejia [~ismael@apache2-noxim.yoda.dreamhost.com] has joined #scheme 00:42:07 -!- juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:45:00 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:45:26 preflex_ [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #scheme 00:46:10 -!- preflex_ is now known as preflex 00:46:57 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 00:52:17 -!- joast [~rick@cpe-24-160-56-92.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:52:56 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 00:59:39 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@12.27.66.4] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 01:00:25 juanfra [~juanfra@unaffiliated/juanfra] has joined 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has joined #scheme 04:48:20 strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has joined #scheme 05:01:15 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 05:11:56 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: computer sleeping] 05:12:26 tcsc [~tcsc@c-76-127-240-20.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 05:12:51 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 05:20:26 -!- araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 05:25:59 -!- sheilong [~sabayonus@unaffiliated/sheilong] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 05:33:43 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:06:45 "The initial environment of a program is empty, so at least one import declaration is needed to introduce initial bindings." -- from r7rs-small ninth draft, i'm not sure if i'm getting it right. is it required to import r7rs (scheme base or smth) from every program, to be able to do anything at all? 06:09:26 estevocastro [~estevocas@70.Red-83-57-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 06:11:12 xue [~nebula@112.65.62.186] has joined #scheme 06:13:23 Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:14:27 xuefl [~nebula@112.65.62.186] has joined #scheme 06:14:33 -!- effy [~x@114.246.73.29] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14:50 effy [~x@114.246.73.29] has joined #scheme 06:15:35 -!- xue [~nebula@112.65.62.186] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:16:14 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:17:07 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 06:17:38 -!- Sgeo_ [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:21:57 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 06:33:21 effy_ [~x@114.246.73.29] has joined #scheme 06:33:26 -!- effy 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has quit [Changing host] 10:16:09 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 10:24:31 araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has joined #scheme 10:24:31 -!- araujo [~araujo@190.73.46.113] has quit [Changing host] 10:24:31 araujo [~araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #scheme 10:26:55 estevocastro [~estevocas@192.Red-79-157-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 10:34:21 stepnem [~stepnem@internet2.cznet.cz] has joined #scheme 10:34:48 _5kg [~zifeitong@60.191.2.238] has joined #scheme 10:34:59 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Quit: quit] 10:38:07 amgarchIn9 [~amgarchin@p4FD60324.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 10:42:13 icrazyhack [~horieyui@li664-219.members.linode.com] has joined #scheme 10:43:15 -!- horieyui [~horieyui@180.154.124.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:43:23 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-188-59.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 10:53:29 gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has joined #scheme 10:56:29 -!- MichaelRaskin [~MichaelRa@195.91.224.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:59:15 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 11:00:45 Natch [~Natch@c-63cde155.25-4-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #scheme 11:36:14 -!- estevocastro [~estevocas@192.Red-79-157-101.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:36:16 civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has joined #scheme 11:42:55 -!- Ogion_ is now known as Ogion 11:50:15 defanor_: Contradicting that, it says (* 5 8) evaluates to 40 in the initial environment. 11:53:45 mmc1 [~michal@j212142.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #scheme 11:58:56 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 12:00:57 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 12:04:51 TaylanUB: right, thanks. but i don't get why/how is it then 12:06:11 jewel 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[~Ogion@97.Red-83-57-115.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 16:17:20 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 16:18:14 -!- Ogion [~Ogion@235.Red-83-38-68.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:19:09 hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #scheme 16:31:27 Okasu [~1@unaffiliated/okasu] has joined #scheme 16:31:34 paging jcowan! 16:32:06 defanor, TaylanUB : if jcowan shows up, ask him; he ought to be familiar with the r7rs standard, having been one of the editors 16:39:51 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 16:45:02 -!- Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:47:28 -!- oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-157-162.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 16:50:39 -!- TFEccles [~alistair@78-86-176-28.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:52:39 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 16:55:11 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 16:55:43 Sgeo [~quassel@ool-ad034ea6.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #scheme 16:56:54 -!- Ogion_ is now known as Ogion 17:01:00 oleo [~oleo@xdsl-78-35-154-129.netcologne.de] has joined #scheme 17:13:07 offby1: yeah, already checked if he's online. going to ask him if nobody will answer before he'll join 17:14:41 -!- hiroakip [~hiroaki@77-20-51-63-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:16:13 defanor: in Chibi, the R7RS Small reference implementation, you do need to (import (scheme base)) to get all the R7RS Small procedures, which would suggest that yes, you do need to do that according to the standard 17:18:33 shivani [uid11848@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-csomogbannqvxfat] has joined #scheme 17:19:08 dpk: thanks, googled it already, but i don't get that (* 5 8) example in initial environment then. thought that chibi turns from r5rs to r7rs with that import btw 17:19:19 oh, maybe 17:19:47 checking the speck 17:20:48 opened chibi docs again, default is r7rs there, but it's not clear for me anyway 17:21:15 "Note the builtin equal? does not support cyclic structures (you need the R7RS (scheme base) or (chibi equiv))" 17:21:21 not exactly r7rs 17:21:38 just based on it 17:22:00 (as documentations says just before that quote) 17:25:13 ok, i'm pretty sure that this means that, yes, you have to (import (scheme base)) to get any procedures at all 17:25:17 per the spec 17:25:41 and what about the (* 5 8) example? 17:26:10 not standard-compliant code unless it's preceded by (import (scheme base)) 17:26:15 jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-5.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 17:26:17 we'll wait and see what implementations do, though 17:26:48 but it's written in the same spec that it should evaluate to 40 in the initial environment 17:26:58 oh? 17:27:05 sorry, i think i've misunderstood your question 17:27:10 on 7th page or somewhere there 17:27:56 Or, more precisely: the expression given by the sequence of characters (* 5 8) evaluates, in the initial environment, to an object that can be represented exter- nally by the sequence of characters 40. 17:27:58 here 17:28:11 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 17:28:22 hmm 17:29:26 but initial environment should be empty, that's what confuses me 17:29:53 hmm 17:30:11 i think you may have just found an error in the spec  17:30:22 but i think jcowan is the best chap to ask 17:31:17 perhaps. waiting for him or someone who understands it then 17:31:43 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-76-5.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:31:46 -!- Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 17:31:59 -!- vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 17:32:47 i suspect that it should say "interaction environment" instead of "initial environment" 17:33:18 oh, that makes sense 17:33:22 vraid [50d8e34d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.80.216.227.77] has joined #scheme 17:35:08 tupi [~user@189.60.0.38] has joined #scheme 17:43:23 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@li664-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 17:54:27 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:54:45 dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #scheme 18:09:58 -!- tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:10:37 tiksa [~tiksa@gateway/tor-sasl/tiksa] has joined #scheme 18:12:48 ehaliewicz [~user@12.27.66.4] has joined #scheme 18:24:16 pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #scheme 18:25:22 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 18:31:10 pierpa`` [~user@host110-243-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #scheme 18:31:58 rudybot: seen jcowan 18:31:58 *offby1: jcowan was seen joining in #scheme one day ago, and then jcowan was seen quitting one day ago, saying "Quit: Leaving" 18:41:30 -!- pnkfelix [~Adium@bas75-2-88-170-201-21.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:55:41 jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has joined #scheme 18:57:05 -!- HG` [~HG@213.5.69.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:58:12 -!- tcsc [~tcsc@50.28.142.198] has quit [Quit: bye!] 19:02:50 Cromulent [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #scheme 19:30:00 -!- TaylanUB [tub@p4FD927A3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:33:11 -!- dsmith [~dsmith@cpe-184-56-129-232.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 19:47:35 -!- jewel [~jewel@105-236-64-144.access.mtnbusiness.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:51:16 jewel 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[~user@189.60.0.38] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:15:13 -!- davexunit [~user@fsf/member/davexunit] has quit [Quit: Later] 21:15:26 bernalex [~alexander@107.4.189.109.customer.cdi.no] has joined #scheme 21:19:15 -!- weie [~weie@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 21:25:15 -!- Cromulent|2 [~Cromulent@cpc1-reig5-2-0-cust251.6-3.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/] 21:27:55 -!- ehaliewicz [~user@12.27.66.4] has left #scheme 21:35:32 horieyui [~horieyui@180.154.124.206] has joined #scheme 21:37:45 -!- icrazyhack [~horieyui@li664-219.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:51:24 -!- horieyui [~horieyui@180.154.124.206] has left #scheme 22:01:03 dsevilla [~user@111.Red-88-25-200.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #scheme 22:02:17 guys, what would be the best reference on Scheme macros out there? 22:05:45 ASau` [~user@p54AFFE90.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #scheme 22:06:45 define "scheme macros" 22:07:01 syntax-rules? syntax-case? explicit-renaming? syntactic closures? 22:07:55 dsevilla: which implementation are you using? 22:08:02 -!- gravicappa [~gravicapp@ppp91-77-185-56.pppoe.mtu-net.ru] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:08:23 ijp: why do I have to specify? Isn't it a reference on all that? 22:08:37 well, no 22:08:50 ecraven: I now use Racket, but I would like to use pure Scheme mostly 22:09:08 ijp: oh 22:09:27 -!- ASau [~user@p54AFEA6A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:09:46 the problem is that I'm writing some heavy macro based code and I'm a little bit lost 22:10:19 ER and SC are not standard, but are favoured in certain circumstances. syntax-rules is the most portable but using it for anything complicated is like trying to make residential accommodation out of a pack of cards 22:10:52 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:11:15 ijp: that's a pity. I thought Scheme being more minimalistic and pure, than, say, CL, would be more normalized 22:11:23 rrs syntax-rules also enforces hygiene, which gets awkward sometimes when you don't want it 22:11:33 LeoNerd: and when do you not want it? 22:11:57 (there is only one actual good answer to this) 22:12:11 is "top-level bindings" the good answer? :-) 22:12:21 dsevilla: then you misunderstand human nature 22:12:40 the less you agree on is the MORE there is to argue about 22:12:40 ijp: hahaha, right 22:12:48 *sigh* 22:13:07 the problem is that I should have to write macro-writing macros for the implementation to be perfect 22:13:25 but I find things like (... ...) that really blow my mind, and cannot find them explained anywhere 22:13:27 civodul: define-record-type is the good answer 22:13:49 I think the good answer is anywhere you want to introduce bindings for some context 22:13:53 dsevilla: Fear of Macros is okay, but it has a quite a lot of racketisms 22:14:24 dsevilla: syntax parameters are better for that 22:14:38 ijp: I read it some time ago, but I'm not sure it includes macro-writing macro thing 22:15:25 to be honest, I'm now doing it using define-macro, so that I can write more or less "standard" macro code 22:15:52 in the sense that the macro code is similar to what i would write in CL or Emacs Lisp (don't tell any Schemers) 22:16:12 you know we are talking on #scheme, right? 22:16:18 but still, writing a macro that produces part of other macro is difficult 22:16:39 and I thought I could find some Scheme specific text that explains that, and hopefuly makes me to understand that better 22:16:58 ijp: I know, I know, but come on, I *have* to be able to at least speak 22:17:16 because if I ask in CL or ELisp, they tell me "ey, you're using Scheme" 22:17:24 and if I ask here, they say me "eh, you're using define-macro!!") 22:17:25 :) 22:18:43 I use Racket because it has a good integrated graphical GUI library, that I need 22:19:09 anyway, there isn't really anything to explain with (... ...) 22:19:18 it inserts a literal ... into the output 22:19:31 that's it 22:19:56 it's ugly, but that ship has sailed 22:20:23 is that by definition? or is it that the ... function is defined at the transform phase? 22:21:05 it's treated specially, just like ... is 22:21:16 ijp: I see... 22:21:46 ijp: OK, now the answer should be that, OK, i don't know enough of macros, so I'll get those book and learn, but as you say, no real reference on them 22:23:04 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 22:24:17 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 22:25:29 dsevilla: if you're using Racket, Fear of Macros is really good 22:26:02 dsevilla: even if eventually you want to learn how to write macros in other Scheme systems, I'd start there, and later learn what the differences are 22:26:14 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:26:18 one discrecommendation I have is "jrms syntax rules primer" 22:27:44 well, unless you want an argument against syntax-rules 22:27:52 in which case it is perfect 22:27:56 dsevilla: the other decent tutorial is by Kent Dybvig: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.5180 22:28:10 dsevilla: it's called "Writing Hygenic Macros in Scheme with syntax-case" 22:28:26 yeah, that is not bad 22:28:30 ijp: anything that starts with syntax-rules is making a terrible mistake 22:28:39 ijp: because define-record-type introduces a top-level binding 22:29:02 ijp: I learned a lot from Kent's article 22:29:23 two of the functions got renamed (syntax-object->datum became syntax->datum, and datum->syntax-object became datum->syntax), but I think everything else holds up 22:29:48 -!- mrowe_away is now known as mrowe 22:31:37 samth: ah, thanks for the pointers 22:35:50 -!- synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:37:05 synacktic [~jordyd@unaffiliated/jordyd] has joined #scheme 22:37:13 Ah, that tutorial from Kent Dybvig is a jewel... 22:39:22 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 22:40:00 -!- strobegen [~Adium@188.168.72.236] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 22:44:45 -!- mrowe is now known as mrowe_away 22:53:08 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 22:57:53 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 23:05:01 -!- dsevilla [~user@111.Red-88-25-200.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:05:40 -!- alexshendi [~loongson@HSI-KBW-078-043-199-120.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:59 civodul: that's orthogonal, you can imagine `define-record-type` introduce bindings in a local scope such a function body (in Racket, `struct` does this). 23:21:32 -!- add^_ [~user@m176-70-194-52.cust.tele2.se] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:23:42 right 23:23:49 maybe i misunderstood what ijp wanted to say 23:23:55 -!- duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:04 maybe he was referring to unhygienic accessor identifiers 23:24:24 i remember hearing samth advocate those, though i'm still not quite convinced ;-) 23:24:34 well that's less typing, sure 23:25:10 civodul: (a) i'd advocate them on the basis of less typing 23:25:41 but (b) i'd also say that there's an important way that they're "less" unhygenic than, say, `if-it` 23:28:22 heh 23:28:31 obviously i'm more skeptical about (b) than about (a) ;-) 23:29:18 duggiefresh [~duggiefre@c-66-30-11-90.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:30:21 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 23:40:50 -!- joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:41:59 -!- civodul [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/civodul] has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 23:42:06 joneshf-laptop [~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #scheme 23:53:56 hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has joined #scheme 23:58:40 -!- hiyosi [~skip_it@247.94.30.125.dy.iij4u.or.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]